[gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Harry Putnam]

I caught just a hint of some kind of recent trouble when updating on
this list a few days ago but lost track of the thread or message.

I'd like to do update world and am some 4-5 mnths out of date right
now.

Am I likely to hit some horrible snag that has come up recently.

PS - I'm already past the change from hda to sda

Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Paul Hartman]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> wrote:
> I caught just a hint of some kind of recent trouble when updating on
> this list a few days ago but lost track of the thread or message.
>
> I'd like to do update world and am some 4-5 mnths out of date right
> now.
>
> Am I likely to hit some horrible snag that has come up recently.
>
> PS - I'm already past the change from hda to sda

I updated my laptop (using ~amd64) which went ~9 months or so without
being updated, and it was fine... It took a few days of compiling, but
it was fine. The usual things apply, be careful when upgrading config
files, kernel options, rebuild your x11 drivers after upgrading xorg,
rebuild libtool after upgrading gcc, etc. I don't remember any gotchas
though.

I personally like to upgrade gcc first off (and its deps), then run
gcc-config to (re)set the new version, re-emerge libtool,
fix_libtool_files.sh, then I update the system set, etc-update, reboot
to be sure everything is sane, then upgrade world after that.
Depending on how ancient the kernel is, upgrading the kernel might
fall somewhere in the middle of that process (and updating
linux-headers and glibc as appropriate). Usually there are copious
amounts of emerge @preserved-rebuild, revdep-rebuild and emerge
--depclean along the journey, too. :)

Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Dale]

Harry Putnam wrote:
> I caught just a hint of some kind of recent trouble when updating on
> this list a few days ago but lost track of the thread or message.
>
> I'd like to do update world and am some 4-5 mnths out of date right
> now.
>
> Am I likely to hit some horrible snag that has come up recently.
>
> PS - I'm already past the change from hda to sda
>
>
>

I agree with the other post about gcc but you should also update portage 
shortly after that.  The newer portage is able to handle more issues for 
you and may save you some time.  So, I would update gcc, portage then 
give world a try.  If it looks bad, try system first.  That could 
correct some things.

The only other gotcha I can think of is openrc/baselayout.  Do NOT 
reboot until you are sure your config files are updated.  The only thing 
I really had to change myself was my net file.  Their script works well.

Anothet thing, I would just do a emerge -e qorld and call it a day.  You 
will have a few blockers, most openrc stuff, but those can be handled 
quickly.  Just make sure you don't have a power problem.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:03:34 -0500, Dale wrote:

> I agree with the other post about gcc but you should also update
> portage shortly after that.  The newer portage is able to handle more
> issues for you and may save you some time.  So, I would update gcc,
> portage then give world a try.  If it looks bad, try system first.
> That could correct some things.

Update portage first, that way you are using the newest version when
updating gcc and glibc.

Personally, I'd trust portage to know better than me and do

emerge -au @system
emerge -auDN @world

-- 
Neil Bothwick

And God said "Let there be light" and there was light.
There was still nothing, but you could see it better.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Mark Knecht]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:03:34 -0500, Dale wrote:
>
>> I agree with the other post about gcc but you should also update
>> portage shortly after that.  The newer portage is able to handle more
>> issues for you and may save you some time.  So, I would update gcc,
>> portage then give world a try.  If it looks bad, try system first.
>> That could correct some things.
>
> Update portage first, that way you are using the newest version when
> updating gcc and glibc.
>
> Personally, I'd trust portage to know better than me and do
>
> emerge -au @system
> emerge -auDN @world
>
> --
> Neil Bothwick

Not that I know anything about the OP's environment but on my KDE
desktop I've recently (last 6 months or so) found that

emerge -fDuN @system

won't work as it ends up with unresolvable conflicts. May just be the
way I've set up my flags.

I completely agree with the sentiment:

1) Update the system's view of portage
eix-sync

2) emerge portage

3) Do the rest of the work

emerge -fDuN @world
emerge -pvDuN @world

Fix USE flag issues, if any

4) Do the build

emerge -DuN -j13 @world

Cheers,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 15:37:15 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:

> 3) Do the rest of the work
> 
> emerge -fDuN @world
> emerge -pvDuN @world
> 
> Fix USE flag issues, if any
> 
> 4) Do the build
> 
> emerge -DuN -j13 @world

There's not point in doing the fetch first, portage has done parallel
fetching for some time - it's faster to let the distfiles download while
the first package is compiling.

emerge -auDN @world covers all of that - except the -j which is
system-dependent.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

The modem is the message.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Neil Bothwick<neil@digimed.co.uk>  wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:03:34 -0500, Dale wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with the other post about gcc but you should also update
>>> portage shortly after that.  The newer portage is able to handle more
>>> issues for you and may save you some time.  So, I would update gcc,
>>> portage then give world a try.  If it looks bad, try system first.
>>> That could correct some things.
>> Update portage first, that way you are using the newest version when
>> updating gcc and glibc.
>>
>> Personally, I'd trust portage to know better than me and do
>>
>> emerge -au @system
>> emerge -auDN @world
>>
>> --
>> Neil Bothwick
> Not that I know anything about the OP's environment but on my KDE
> desktop I've recently (last 6 months or so) found that
>
> emerge -fDuN @system
>
> won't work as it ends up with unresolvable conflicts. May just be the
> way I've set up my flags.
>
> I completely agree with the sentiment:
>
> 1) Update the system's view of portage
> eix-sync
>
> 2) emerge portage
>
> 3) Do the rest of the work
>
> emerge -fDuN @world
> emerge -pvDuN @world
>
> Fix USE flag issues, if any
>
> 4) Do the build
>
> emerge -DuN -j13 @world
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
>
>

A lot of this is going to depend on *what* needs to be updated.  I did 
want to mention openrc because that requires user input for sure.  Me, I 
would sync and look at the output of emerge -uvDNa world and just see 
how much there is to chew on.  If the list is really really long, I 
would do a emerge -e world after upgrading gcc and portage.  When that 
is done, the OP should have a really sane system since everything will 
be newly compiled.

Again, that is just me.  Over the years I have learned how to avoid some 
update issues.  The most important thing to watch for tho is openrc.  
Miss that and rebooting may only be a dream.

YMMV.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Mark Knecht]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 15:37:15 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>> 3) Do the rest of the work
>>
>> emerge -fDuN @world
>> emerge -pvDuN @world
>>
>> Fix USE flag issues, if any
>>
>> 4) Do the build
>>
>> emerge -DuN -j13 @world
>
> There's not point in doing the fetch first, portage has done parallel
> fetching for some time - it's faster to let the distfiles download while
> the first package is compiling.
>
> emerge -auDN @world covers all of that - except the -j which is
> system-dependent.
>
>
> --
> Neil Bothwick

Quite true about the parallel fetch, but I still do this anyway
because I want to know all the code is local before I start. With 12
processor cores I often build the first file before the second has
been downloaded. Also I don't want to start a big build, say 50-70
updates, and then find out an hour later when I come back that some
portage mirror choked on finding a specific file and the whole thing
died 10 minutes in. This way I have a better chance of getting to the
end in one pass.

Anyway, it works well for this old dog, and in my mind there is a good
reason to fetch before building but I can see how others might not
want to do that.

- Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Neil Bothwick<neil@digimed.co.uk>  wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 15:37:15 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
>>
>>> 3) Do the rest of the work
>>>
>>> emerge -fDuN @world
>>> emerge -pvDuN @world
>>>
>>> Fix USE flag issues, if any
>>>
>>> 4) Do the build
>>>
>>> emerge -DuN -j13 @world
>> There's not point in doing the fetch first, portage has done parallel
>> fetching for some time - it's faster to let the distfiles download while
>> the first package is compiling.
>>
>> emerge -auDN @world covers all of that - except the -j which is
>> system-dependent.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Neil Bothwick
> Quite true about the parallel fetch, but I still do this anyway
> because I want to know all the code is local before I start. With 12
> processor cores I often build the first file before the second has
> been downloaded. Also I don't want to start a big build, say 50-70
> updates, and then find out an hour later when I come back that some
> portage mirror choked on finding a specific file and the whole thing
> died 10 minutes in. This way I have a better chance of getting to the
> end in one pass.
>
> Anyway, it works well for this old dog, and in my mind there is a good
> reason to fetch before building but I can see how others might not
> want to do that.
>
> - Mark
>
>

tail -f /var/log/emerge-fetch.log

That way you can be compiling and watching the fetching process at the 
same time.  If something fails, it'll be printer there.  I use it all 
the time here.  I only have 4 cores here tho.  :-P

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Mark Knecht]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:16 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Knecht wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Neil Bothwick<neil@digimed.co.uk>  wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 15:37:15 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
>>>
>>>> 3) Do the rest of the work
>>>>
>>>> emerge -fDuN @world
>>>> emerge -pvDuN @world
>>>>
>>>> Fix USE flag issues, if any
>>>>
>>>> 4) Do the build
>>>>
>>>> emerge -DuN -j13 @world
>>>
>>> There's not point in doing the fetch first, portage has done parallel
>>> fetching for some time - it's faster to let the distfiles download while
>>> the first package is compiling.
>>>
>>> emerge -auDN @world covers all of that - except the -j which is
>>> system-dependent.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Neil Bothwick
>>
>> Quite true about the parallel fetch, but I still do this anyway
>> because I want to know all the code is local before I start. With 12
>> processor cores I often build the first file before the second has
>> been downloaded. Also I don't want to start a big build, say 50-70
>> updates, and then find out an hour later when I come back that some
>> portage mirror choked on finding a specific file and the whole thing
>> died 10 minutes in. This way I have a better chance of getting to the
>> end in one pass.
>>
>> Anyway, it works well for this old dog, and in my mind there is a good
>> reason to fetch before building but I can see how others might not
>> want to do that.
>>
>> - Mark
>>
>>
>
> tail -f /var/log/emerge-fetch.log
>
> That way you can be compiling and watching the fetching process at the same
> time.  If something fails, it'll be printer there.  I use it all the time
> here.  I only have 4 cores here tho.  :-P
>
> Dale

Nahh, you miss my point. I don't want my attention to be anywhere near
the machine except for the 1 minute it takes to run the fetch, and
then assuming that worked, for the 1 minute it takes to start the
build. I then come back an hour or two later, make sure everything got
done and I spent no time of my own fixated on a Gentoo box. Most of
these machines get updated during the day when family is away, but I'm
busy working here at home and don't want to pay much attention just to
get updates done.

I know others are way more involved with every little thing happening
on their machines but I'm not. I run stable with a few ~amd64
packages. I just want to box to get updated and work without a lot of
my time involved. I've done my wife's machine, my father's machine and
my mother's machine this way for years and it doesn't take much
effort. (It just works... (@tm)

On my own 3 Gentoo machines I am a little more involved, but typically
I'm working on them while updating so that's not such a bog deal. My
attention is there.

That said, maybe someone who hasn't touched the machine for 5 months
shouldn't try to do a (mostly) unattended update... ;-)

- Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
> Nahh, you miss my point. I don't want my attention to be anywhere near 
> the machine except for the 1 minute it takes to run the fetch, and 
> then assuming that worked, for the 1 minute it takes to start the 
> build. I then come back an hour or two later, make sure everything got 
> done and I spent no time of my own fixated on a Gentoo box. Most of 
> these machines get updated during the day when family is away, but I'm 
> busy working here at home and don't want to pay much attention just to 
> get updates done. I know others are way more involved with every 
> little thing happening on their machines but I'm not. I run stable 
> with a few ~amd64 packages. I just want to box to get updated and work 
> without a lot of my time involved. I've done my wife's machine, my 
> father's machine and my mother's machine this way for years and it 
> doesn't take much effort. (It just works... (@tm) On my own 3 Gentoo 
> machines I am a little more involved, but typically I'm working on 
> them while updating so that's not such a bog deal. My attention is 
> there. That said, maybe someone who hasn't touched the machine for 5 
> months shouldn't try to do a (mostly) unattended update... ;-) - Mark 

Wouldn't be the first time I missed a point.  lol  It wouldn't be the 
last either.

I do mine in Konsole usually.  I start the emerge then run tail in 
another tab.  Once it stops printing, the download is finished BUT it 
has been compiling all that time too.  I then make sure it is compiling 
still.  I have had times where the fetch stopped because a compile puked 
on my keyboard.  Then I have to go attend to that.

Doing a update after that much time would require the chair to be 
occupied for sure.  Depending on what is installed, it could be quite a 
large bite.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:07:45 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:

> > There's not point in doing the fetch first, portage has done parallel
> > fetching for some time - it's faster to let the distfiles download
> > while the first package is compiling.
> >
> > emerge -auDN @world covers all of that - except the -j which is
> > system-dependent.

> Quite true about the parallel fetch, but I still do this anyway
> because I want to know all the code is local before I start. With 12
> processor cores I often build the first file before the second has
> been downloaded. Also I don't want to start a big build, say 50-70
> updates, and then find out an hour later when I come back that some
> portage mirror choked on finding a specific file and the whole thing
> died 10 minutes in. This way I have a better chance of getting to the
> end in one pass.

--keep-going will take care of that, and making sure there are for F
flags in the --ask output before hitting Y.

> Anyway, it works well for this old dog, and in my mind there is a good
> reason to fetch before building but I can see how others might not
> want to do that.

I use it too, but for a different reason. I run emerge --sync from a cron
script, followed by emerge -f world, so all the tarballs are downloaded
before I even start.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Master of all I survey (at the moment, empty pizza boxes)

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Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Mark Knecht]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:50 PM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:07:45 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>> > There's not point in doing the fetch first, portage has done parallel
>> > fetching for some time - it's faster to let the distfiles download
>> > while the first package is compiling.
>> >
>> > emerge -auDN @world covers all of that - except the -j which is
>> > system-dependent.
>
>> Quite true about the parallel fetch, but I still do this anyway
>> because I want to know all the code is local before I start. With 12
>> processor cores I often build the first file before the second has
>> been downloaded. Also I don't want to start a big build, say 50-70
>> updates, and then find out an hour later when I come back that some
>> portage mirror choked on finding a specific file and the whole thing
>> died 10 minutes in. This way I have a better chance of getting to the
>> end in one pass.
>
> --keep-going will take care of that, and making sure there are for F
> flags in the --ask output before hitting Y.
>
>> Anyway, it works well for this old dog, and in my mind there is a good
>> reason to fetch before building but I can see how others might not
>> want to do that.
>
> I use it too, but for a different reason. I run emerge --sync from a cron
> script, followed by emerge -f world, so all the tarballs are downloaded
> before I even start.
>

OK, sorry for offering my opinion. I'll just go away an not bother anyone.

Bye

Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Paul Hartman]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> There's not point in doing the fetch first, portage has done parallel
> fetching for some time - it's faster to let the distfiles download while
> the first package is compiling.

Speed is not always the biggest concern to me. For example, an
advantage of fetching separately is the compile times in genlop are
more accurate because they don't include fetch time, which can vary
wildly.

If fetch-only is done unattended, and there's a really slow mirror,
the interactive emerge later will still be fast, where if using
parallel-fetch and you hit a slow download, you just have to wait, or
bring up the fetch log in another terminal and kill the wget session
etc.

The good thing is there are options and we can all do i the way we prefer. :)

Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Michael Mol]

On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 12:28 PM, Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:50 PM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:07:45 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
>>
>>> > There's not point in doing the fetch first, portage has done parallel
>>> > fetching for some time - it's faster to let the distfiles download
>>> > while the first package is compiling.
>>> >
>>> > emerge -auDN @world covers all of that - except the -j which is
>>> > system-dependent.
>>
>>> Quite true about the parallel fetch, but I still do this anyway
>>> because I want to know all the code is local before I start. With 12
>>> processor cores I often build the first file before the second has
>>> been downloaded. Also I don't want to start a big build, say 50-70
>>> updates, and then find out an hour later when I come back that some
>>> portage mirror choked on finding a specific file and the whole thing
>>> died 10 minutes in. This way I have a better chance of getting to the
>>> end in one pass.
>>
>> --keep-going will take care of that, and making sure there are for F
>> flags in the --ask output before hitting Y.
>>
>>> Anyway, it works well for this old dog, and in my mind there is a good
>>> reason to fetch before building but I can see how others might not
>>> want to do that.
>>
>> I use it too, but for a different reason. I run emerge --sync from a cron
>> script, followed by emerge -f world, so all the tarballs are downloaded
>> before I even start.
>>
>
> OK, sorry for offering my opinion. I'll just go away an not bother anyone.

Relax; I think he was just offering some advice and additional information.


-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:07:30 -0400, Michael Mol wrote:

> > OK, sorry for offering my opinion. I'll just go away an not bother
> > anyone.  
> 
> Relax; I think he was just offering some advice and additional
> information.

Exactly. The world would be a boring place if we all thought and did
things the same way. It would be like using Windows...


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Windows Multitasking - screwing up several things at once

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Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 11:40:32 -0500, Paul Hartman wrote:

> If fetch-only is done unattended, and there's a really slow mirror,
> the interactive emerge later will still be fast, where if using
> parallel-fetch and you hit a slow download, you just have to wait, or
> bring up the fetch log in another terminal and kill the wget session
> etc.

Yes, which is one of the reasons I do a fetch-only immediately after a
sync - unattended. But when working interactively, running emerge world
three times, once each for download, pretend and install, only slows
things down. Not just the downloads but also the fact that the dependency
tree has to be calculated three times.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

The cow is nothing but a machine which makes grass fit for us people to
eat.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Mark Knecht]

On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 11:06 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 11:40:32 -0500, Paul Hartman wrote:
>
>> If fetch-only is done unattended, and there's a really slow mirror,
>> the interactive emerge later will still be fast, where if using
>> parallel-fetch and you hit a slow download, you just have to wait, or
>> bring up the fetch log in another terminal and kill the wget session
>> etc.
>
> Yes, which is one of the reasons I do a fetch-only immediately after a
> sync - unattended. But when working interactively, running emerge world
> three times, once each for download, pretend and install, only slows
> things down. Not just the downloads but also the fact that the dependency
> tree has to be calculated three times.

I think you have a specific view that is likely the very best thing to
do for your situation, what ever that is, be it work, office, server
farm. I don't know. I'm guessing however, that in your world machines
are always turned on, burning power, and running cron jobs in those
environment makes lots of sense.

In my world, which is just a lowly home user of Linux for nearly 15
years now, many of the machines I take care of spend more time turned
off than on. cron jobs don't work when there's no power applied, and
while you can let the machine immediately catch up when the machine is
powered back up, in my world of futures trading I need to control CPU
and network usage to ensure that both downloads and builds don't
impact my opportunity to make a trade and hopefully make some money.
As I write this email I'm currently in my 23rd S&P futures trade of
the day which at this point is just about 5 hours old. Some of these
trades take only a few minutes and likely wouldn't execute correctly
if portage was building KDE.

Like Paul, I run fetch unattended, sometimes 4 or 5 times over
multiple days before running emerge -DuN @world. I don't care at all
that the tree is calculated multiple times, and I don't care if I
download multiple revisions of the same package but only build the
last one. When I do sit down to start the build everything is ready
and I can be more assured that the build will completely finish and
not leave the machine in some funny state. Additionally, it gives me
time to watch this list for problems others are having, if any, before
I end up having the same problems.

It's a different world we live in I think, and different worlds
potentially come up with different best practices. The 23rd trade just
completed. The computer is now off looking for the 24th.

- Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 11:26:36 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:

> I think you have a specific view that is likely the very best thing to
> do for your situation, what ever that is, be it work, office, server
> farm. I don't know. I'm guessing however, that in your world machines
> are always turned on, burning power, and running cron jobs in those
> environment makes lots of sense.

Bear in mind I was saying an unattended cron is my reason FOR doing a
separate fetch.

> In my world, which is just a lowly home user of Linux for nearly 15
> years now, many of the machines I take care of spend more time turned
> off than on. cron jobs don't work when there's no power applied, and
> while you can let the machine immediately catch up when the machine is
> powered back up, in my world of futures trading I need to control CPU
> and network usage to ensure that both downloads and builds don't
> impact my opportunity to make a trade and hopefully make some money.
> As I write this email I'm currently in my 23rd S&P futures trade of
> the day which at this point is just about 5 hours old. Some of these
> trades take only a few minutes and likely wouldn't execute correctly
> if portage was building KDE.

That is a rather different usage, certainly to mine and probably to the
OP too. In your situation, where timely and correct updates are so
important, I'd be tempted to build packages in a chroot on a less
important system and do an emerge -ku world when everything was ready and
the time was right.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Dolly Parton-- silicone based life

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Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Mark Knecht]

On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 11:53 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 11:26:36 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>> I think you have a specific view that is likely the very best thing to
>> do for your situation, what ever that is, be it work, office, server
>> farm. I don't know. I'm guessing however, that in your world machines
>> are always turned on, burning power, and running cron jobs in those
>> environment makes lots of sense.
>
> Bear in mind I was saying an unattended cron is my reason FOR doing a
> separate fetch.
>
>> In my world, which is just a lowly home user of Linux for nearly 15
>> years now, many of the machines I take care of spend more time turned
>> off than on. cron jobs don't work when there's no power applied, and
>> while you can let the machine immediately catch up when the machine is
>> powered back up, in my world of futures trading I need to control CPU
>> and network usage to ensure that both downloads and builds don't
>> impact my opportunity to make a trade and hopefully make some money.
>> As I write this email I'm currently in my 23rd S&P futures trade of
>> the day which at this point is just about 5 hours old. Some of these
>> trades take only a few minutes and likely wouldn't execute correctly
>> if portage was building KDE.
>
> That is a rather different usage, certainly to mine and probably to the
> OP too. In your situation, where timely and correct updates are so
> important, I'd be tempted to build packages in a chroot on a less
> important system and do an emerge -ku world when everything was ready and
> the time was right.
>

I've considered researching that sort of thing a number of times in
the past, but in trading I have a 6 1/2 work day where I need the
_machine_, but not necessarily me, very focused on doing the trades.
All my trades are completely computerized and executed by hardware so
I need the network unobstructed and the hardware focused. However, as
for me, I'm typically programming new trading code which isn't
terribly focused while keeping an eye on the trading program to ensure
something hasn't gone haywire.

The other 5-6 hours a day that the machine is powered up I'm free to
build the box anyway that's being discussed, but I think similar to
Paul I prefer to download a few files nearly every day but then only
rebuild the machine once a week or so. It's a trade off between having
the box fully updated vs an 'it-ain't-broke-so-don't-fix-it sort of
attitude.

While writing this the 24th trade completed (a winner) and the 25th
trade has started. It's a good day when you make money while writing
email responses to gentoo-users... :-)

- Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 12:07:58 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:

> While writing this the 24th trade completed (a winner) and the 25th
> trade has started. It's a good day when you make money while writing
> email responses to gentoo-users... :-)

I'll have to take your word for that :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

There are only 10 types of people in the world:
those who understand binary and those who don't.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Alan McKinnon]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 20:18:27 +0100
Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 12:07:58 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
> 
> > While writing this the 24th trade completed (a winner) and the 25th
> > trade has started. It's a good day when you make money while writing
> > email responses to gentoo-users... :-)
> 
> I'll have to take your word for that :)


I'm fed up being a sysadmin.
I want a job like Mark's.



-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Mark Knecht]

On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 20:18:27 +0100
> Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 12:07:58 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
>>
>> > While writing this the 24th trade completed (a winner) and the 25th
>> > trade has started. It's a good day when you make money while writing
>> > email responses to gentoo-users... :-)
>>
>> I'll have to take your word for that :)
>
>
> I'm fed up being a sysadmin.
> I want a job like Mark's.

Today was a good day. They aren't all like this. 27 trades, 20
winners, more money today than I used to earn in 2-3 days working in
Silicon Valley as a VP of Engineering and I don't work for anyone
except myself and my family doing this.


The bad part? It took me about 5 years of self financing my own
education in trading to get here so I'm not sure I'll _ever_ climb out
of the hold I dug getting here. Be careful what you wish for...

Cheers,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Pandu Poluan]

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On Sep 16, 2011 3:52 AM, "Mark Knecht" <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 20:18:27 +0100
> > Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 12:07:58 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
> >>
> >> > While writing this the 24th trade completed (a winner) and the 25th
> >> > trade has started. It's a good day when you make money while writing
> >> > email responses to gentoo-users... :-)
> >>
> >> I'll have to take your word for that :)
> >
> >
> > I'm fed up being a sysadmin.
> > I want a job like Mark's.
>
> Today was a good day. They aren't all like this. 27 trades, 20
> winners, more money today than I used to earn in 2-3 days working in
> Silicon Valley as a VP of Engineering and I don't work for anyone
> except myself and my family doing this.
>
>
> The bad part? It took me about 5 years of self financing my own
> education in trading to get here so I'm not sure I'll _ever_ climb out
> of the hold I dug getting here. Be careful what you wish for...
>

A financial whiz with extensive IT Technical skillset is always an awesome
sight to behold :-)

(and gosh, I'm *seriously* considering of doing some serious study on
Options after finding your job. Damn you, Mark! :-P )

Rgds,

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Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Mick]

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On Friday 16 Sep 2011 05:13:02 Pandu Poluan wrote:
> On Sep 16, 2011 3:52 AM, "Mark Knecht" <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>
> 
> wrote:
> > > On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 20:18:27 +0100
> > > 
> > > Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> > >> On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 12:07:58 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
> > >> > While writing this the 24th trade completed (a winner) and the 25th
> > >> > trade has started. It's a good day when you make money while writing
> > >> > email responses to gentoo-users... :-)
> > >> 
> > >> I'll have to take your word for that :)
> > > 
> > > I'm fed up being a sysadmin.
> > > I want a job like Mark's.
> > 
> > Today was a good day. They aren't all like this. 27 trades, 20
> > winners, more money today than I used to earn in 2-3 days working in
> > Silicon Valley as a VP of Engineering and I don't work for anyone
> > except myself and my family doing this.
> > 
> > 
> > The bad part? It took me about 5 years of self financing my own
> > education in trading to get here so I'm not sure I'll _ever_ climb out
> > of the hold I dug getting here. Be careful what you wish for...
> 
> A financial whiz with extensive IT Technical skillset is always an awesome
> sight to behold :-)
> 
> (and gosh, I'm *seriously* considering of doing some serious study on
> Options after finding your job. Damn you, Mark! :-P )

Hmm ... Mark you didn't tell us what happens on a *bad* day!

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Mark Knecht]

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:47 AM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday 16 Sep 2011 05:13:02 Pandu Poluan wrote:
>> On Sep 16, 2011 3:52 AM, "Mark Knecht" <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>
>>
>> wrote:
>> > > On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 20:18:27 +0100
>> > >
>> > > Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>> > >> On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 12:07:58 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
>> > >> > While writing this the 24th trade completed (a winner) and the 25th
>> > >> > trade has started. It's a good day when you make money while writing
>> > >> > email responses to gentoo-users... :-)
>> > >>
>> > >> I'll have to take your word for that :)
>> > >
>> > > I'm fed up being a sysadmin.
>> > > I want a job like Mark's.
>> >
>> > Today was a good day. They aren't all like this. 27 trades, 20
>> > winners, more money today than I used to earn in 2-3 days working in
>> > Silicon Valley as a VP of Engineering and I don't work for anyone
>> > except myself and my family doing this.
>> >
>> >
>> > The bad part? It took me about 5 years of self financing my own
>> > education in trading to get here so I'm not sure I'll _ever_ climb out
>> > of the hold I dug getting here. Be careful what you wish for...
>>
>> A financial whiz with extensive IT Technical skillset is always an awesome
>> sight to behold :-)
>>
>> (and gosh, I'm *seriously* considering of doing some serious study on
>> Options after finding your job. Damn you, Mark! :-P )
>
> Hmm ... Mark you didn't tell us what happens on a *bad* day!
>

Way off topic for this list but the metaphor I'd use is that while
hunched over my keyboard my computer suddenly grows arms, shoves it's
hands up inside my rib cage, rips my hearts out and holds it over me
while writhing on the floor I watch the world grow black.

The world of trading is 99% boredom, 1% terror...

Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Dale]

Harry Putnam wrote:
> I caught just a hint of some kind of recent trouble when updating on
> this list a few days ago but lost track of the thread or message.
>
> I'd like to do update world and am some 4-5 mnths out of date right
> now.
>
> Am I likely to hit some horrible snag that has come up recently.
>
> PS - I'm already past the change from hda to sda
>
>
>


Howdy,

You start the upgrade yet?  If so, post your pitfalls for the rest of us.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 08:02:27 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:

> Way off topic for this list but the metaphor I'd use is that while
> hunched over my keyboard my computer suddenly grows arms, shoves it's
> hands up inside my rib cage, rips my hearts out and holds it over me
> while writhing on the floor I watch the world grow black.

Are multiple hearts a requirement?

> The world of trading is 99% boredom, 1% terror...

Tell that to UBS...


-- 
Neil Bothwick

There's no such thing as a free lunch
                              ___Steve Ballmer, choking on a linuxburger

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Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Michael Mol]

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 08:02:27 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>> Way off topic for this list but the metaphor I'd use is that while
>> hunched over my keyboard my computer suddenly grows arms, shoves it's
>> hands up inside my rib cage, rips my hearts out and holds it over me
>> while writhing on the floor I watch the world grow black.
>
> Are multiple hearts a requirement?

I was thinking he was a Centauri.

-- 
:wq

OT: Merchant bankers (Was: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[David W Noon]

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On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 20:49:03 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote about Re:
[gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths:

> On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 08:02:27 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
[snip]
> > The world of trading is 99% boredom, 1% terror...
> 
> Tell that to UBS...

Don't go there!  I used to work for UBS, about 11 years ago.  I (and
many others) was laid off when they lost a fortune on the dot-com
bubble.  Then they were bankers to Enron.  Then they were bankers to
Worldcom. [See a pattern here?] Then they bought sub-prime mortgage
portfolios -- as hedge instruments.  Now they've been shafted by one of
their traders.

Of course, all of the directors are business geniuses, as all senior
City folk are.
-- 
Regards,

Dave  [RLU #314465]
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
dwnoon@ntlworld.com (David W Noon)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

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Re: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 15:57:27 -0400, Michael Mol wrote:

> > Are multiple hearts a requirement?  
> 
> I was thinking he was a Centauri.

Or a Time Lord, but that would be cheating in his line of work :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

"Woody, I said TUCK the children in bed!" --Mia Farrow

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Re: OT: Merchant bankers (Was: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Pandu Poluan]

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On Sep 17, 2011 4:54 AM, "David W Noon" <dwnoon@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 20:49:03 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote about Re:
> [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths:
>
> > On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 08:02:27 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
> [snip]
> > > The world of trading is 99% boredom, 1% terror...
> >
> > Tell that to UBS...
>
> Don't go there!  I used to work for UBS, about 11 years ago.  I (and
> many others) was laid off when they lost a fortune on the dot-com
> bubble.  Then they were bankers to Enron.  Then they were bankers to
> Worldcom. [See a pattern here?] Then they bought sub-prime mortgage
> portfolios -- as hedge instruments.  Now they've been shafted by one of
> their traders.
>
> Of course, all of the directors are business geniuses, as all senior
> City folk are.

So, the moral of the story is: don't trust a banker. Unless he's well-versed
in Gentoo :-)

Rgds,

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Re: OT: Merchant bankers (Was: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Mick]

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On Saturday 17 Sep 2011 09:00:37 Pandu Poluan wrote:
> On Sep 17, 2011 4:54 AM, "David W Noon" <dwnoon@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 20:49:03 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote about Re:
> > 
> > [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths:
> > > On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 08:02:27 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
> > [snip]
> > 
> > > > The world of trading is 99% boredom, 1% terror...
> > > 
> > > Tell that to UBS...
> > 
> > Don't go there!  I used to work for UBS, about 11 years ago.  I (and
> > many others) was laid off when they lost a fortune on the dot-com
> > bubble.  Then they were bankers to Enron.  Then they were bankers to
> > Worldcom. [See a pattern here?] Then they bought sub-prime mortgage
> > portfolios -- as hedge instruments.  Now they've been shafted by one of
> > their traders.
> > 
> > Of course, all of the directors are business geniuses, as all senior
> > City folk are.
> 
> So, the moral of the story is: don't trust a banker. Unless he's
> well-versed in Gentoo :-)

Since we're soooo [OT] I might as well ask Mark:

How close are we to 1930's like depression given the state of European banks 
exposure to a Greek default (and how might this drag down the US with CDSs 
across the pond and what not)?

PS. Yes, any bank(s)ters who don't use Gentoo are inherently suspicious 
entities ...
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: OT: Merchant bankers (Was: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Mark Knecht]

On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday 17 Sep 2011 09:00:37 Pandu Poluan wrote:
>> On Sep 17, 2011 4:54 AM, "David W Noon" <dwnoon@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> > On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 20:49:03 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote about Re:
>> >
>> > [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths:
>> > > On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 08:02:27 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
>> > [snip]
>> >
>> > > > The world of trading is 99% boredom, 1% terror...
>> > >
>> > > Tell that to UBS...
>> >
>> > Don't go there!  I used to work for UBS, about 11 years ago.  I (and
>> > many others) was laid off when they lost a fortune on the dot-com
>> > bubble.  Then they were bankers to Enron.  Then they were bankers to
>> > Worldcom. [See a pattern here?] Then they bought sub-prime mortgage
>> > portfolios -- as hedge instruments.  Now they've been shafted by one of
>> > their traders.
>> >
>> > Of course, all of the directors are business geniuses, as all senior
>> > City folk are.
>>
>> So, the moral of the story is: don't trust a banker. Unless he's
>> well-versed in Gentoo :-)
>
> Since we're soooo [OT] I might as well ask Mark:
>
> How close are we to 1930's like depression given the state of European banks
> exposure to a Greek default (and how might this drag down the US with CDSs
> across the pond and what not)?
>
> PS. Yes, any bank(s)ters who don't use Gentoo are inherently suspicious
> entities ...
> --
> Regards,
> Mick
>

Mick,
   First, I apologize to anyone not interested. Possibly I should have
answered Nick offline with all the traffic the list has had recently.
I'm happy to converse with anyone about any topic concerning trading,
but going forward let's do this off list.

   WRT the depression question I have no training, background or
experience in trying to forecast that sort of thing. We are likely in
at least the 2nd worst time economy of the last 100 years. I have no
reason to hope it becomes the worst...

   WRT to the European problems, and they are legion with only 1 or 2
economies there actually doing moderately well right now, this feels
like the sort of environment wherein one really bad result in the EU
(Italy or Greece) could result in major issues here in the U.S.
financial sector at a minimum, and as we saw in 2008, when the U.S.
financial system shuts down the rest of the world, U.S. & otherwise,
pretty much shuts down also. At that point we're back into the sort of
problems we saw a few years ago but I suspect taking longer than 5
years to repair themselves.

   Of course, I'm a committed (read that word any way you like, as in
'should be') fan of the Kondratiev wave/Super Cycle ideas and started
positioning myself in 2001 for a major slowdown in the world economies
which, so far, has worked out to be the case. On 9/11/2011 the S&P 500
was within about .1% of where it was on 9/10/2001. The 'Lost
Decade'...

Here's a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kondratiev_wave

While I don't agree with the timing on the Wikipedia page - I see it
as more like 2000-2017 - I think the ideas have held for over 200
years and seem to be in play now. That cycle timing would support
another 5 years of these problems with a good economy from 2018-2034
or so.

   I had another good day Friday with 16 winners/6 losers. I hate that
it's in Windows, but I love that Windows only runs here in Virtualbox
VMs. I'd love to have a Linux-based trading environment that supported
everything I need to do but unfortunately nothing I've tried in Linux
really gets the job done for me.

   OK, over and out on the list. All other questions off list. Flames
-> /dev/null.

Cheers,
Mark

Re: OT: Merchant bankers (Was: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Arttu V.]

On 9/17/11, Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/11/2011 the S&P 500 was within about .1% of where
> it was on 9/10/2001. The 'Lost Decade'...

You lucky and prosperous bastards! Take a look at some major European
indexes over the same time span. DAX for example. :D

-- 
Arttu V.

Re: OT: Merchant bankers (Was: [gentoo-user] Any big gotcha's when update from several (5) mnths

[Mark Knecht]

On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 5:00 AM, Arttu V. <arttuv69@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/17/11, Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 9/11/2011 the S&P 500 was within about .1% of where
>> it was on 9/10/2001. The 'Lost Decade'...
>
> You lucky and prosperous bastards! Take a look at some major European
> indexes over the same time span. DAX for example. :D
>
> --
> Arttu V.
>
>

Probably need to factor the decline of the dollar vs the Euro into
that analysis.

For folks living inside the Euro fishbowl, their indexes have been
weak because worldwide the economy is weak, but their ability to buy
dollar based products, such as the U.S. markets, has become strong
because the Euro has been relatively strong compared to the dollar.

For folks living inside the dollar fishbowl our indexes have remained
strong at least partially because people from other countries are
buying our shares. However our ability to buy from other countries has
dropped due to the weakness of the dollar.

May we live in interesting times....

- Mark