[gentoo-user] Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[gentoo-user] Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[walt]

This is on my one amd64 (stable) machine, so the following proposed
update should be safe and Just Work(TM), right?

Maybe it will, but there is no way I'm going to let this upgrade happen
tonight when I'm tired from fighting all day with the so-called 'stable'
computers at work:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild     U  ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r5 [5.9-r3]
[ebuild  NS    ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r99 [5.9-r3] USE="cxx gpm unicode
-ada -static-libs -tinfo" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 

Is this going to install two different (slotted) versions of ncurses-5.9
on my stable machine?

If not, then this proposed update must be an experiment or a hack or a
workaround of some kind.  On my *stable* machine!

Can you tell I'm in a bad mood and a bit paranoid at the moment?  I'm
going to bed and will update the stable machine again in the morning.
Hrmph!

Re: [gentoo-user] Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[wabenbau]

walt <w41ter@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is on my one amd64 (stable) machine, so the following proposed
> update should be safe and Just Work(TM), right?
> 
> Maybe it will, but there is no way I'm going to let this upgrade
> happen tonight when I'm tired from fighting all day with the
> so-called 'stable' computers at work:
> 
> Calculating dependencies... done!
> [ebuild     U  ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r5 [5.9-r3]
> [ebuild  NS    ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r99 [5.9-r3] USE="cxx gpm
> unicode -ada -static-libs -tinfo" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 
> 
> Is this going to install two different (slotted) versions of
> ncurses-5.9 on my stable machine?
> 
> If not, then this proposed update must be an experiment or a hack or a
> workaround of some kind.  On my *stable* machine!
> 
> Can you tell I'm in a bad mood and a bit paranoid at the moment?  I'm
> going to bed and will update the stable machine again in the morning.
> Hrmph!

I'm also not sure about this. I will do a full backup before I try to
update my system tomorrow.

--
Regards
wabe

Re: [gentoo-user] Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[Fernando Rodriguez]

On Tuesday, September 01, 2015 6:06:05 PM walt wrote:
> This is on my one amd64 (stable) machine, so the following proposed
> update should be safe and Just Work(TM), right?
> 
> Maybe it will, but there is no way I'm going to let this upgrade happen
> tonight when I'm tired from fighting all day with the so-called 'stable'
> computers at work:
> 
> Calculating dependencies... done!
> [ebuild     U  ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r5 [5.9-r3]
> [ebuild  NS    ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r99 [5.9-r3] USE="cxx gpm unicode
> -ada -static-libs -tinfo" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 
> 
> Is this going to install two different (slotted) versions of ncurses-5.9
> on my stable machine?
> 
> If not, then this proposed update must be an experiment or a hack or a
> workaround of some kind.  On my *stable* machine!
> 
> Can you tell I'm in a bad mood and a bit paranoid at the moment?  I'm
> going to bed and will update the stable machine again in the morning.
> Hrmph!
> 
> 

It has something to do with the slot move. It is safe to install, I installed 
that one about a week ago. I don't fully understand it, but I think it's to 
cause the 6.0 update to come before the 5.9-r101 so that you don't go through 
what I went through yesterday when I tried to outsmart portage (when you do 
the slot move from r5 to r101 it tries to preserve the old libraries so it 
collides with itself).

-- 
Fernando Rodriguez

Re: [gentoo-user] Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 1 Sep 2015 18:06:05 -0700, walt wrote:

> Calculating dependencies... done!
> [ebuild     U  ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r5 [5.9-r3]
> [ebuild  NS    ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r99 [5.9-r3] USE="cxx gpm unicode
> -ada -static-libs -tinfo" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 
> 
> Is this going to install two different (slotted) versions of ncurses-5.9
> on my stable machine?
> 
> If not, then this proposed update must be an experiment or a hack or a
> workaround of some kind.  On my *stable* machine!

It's a workaround, not an experiment as it's been tested for over a week.
It's to get round an issue with subslots and some ebuilds not handling
changes as expected (I won't say incorrectly as there seems to be some
dispute over exactly what is defined in the PMS).AIUI the second ebuild
simply depends on the first, so that all the ebuilds requiring ncurses
work properly.

See https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=558952 for more information,
probably more than you want to read.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

For security reasons, all text in this mail
  is double-rot13 encrypted.

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[gentoo-user] Re: Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[walt]

On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 07:51:41 +0100
Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, 1 Sep 2015 18:06:05 -0700, walt wrote:
> 
> > Calculating dependencies... done!
> > [ebuild     U  ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r5 [5.9-r3]
> > [ebuild  NS    ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r99 [5.9-r3] USE="cxx gpm
> > unicode -ada -static-libs -tinfo" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 
> > 
> > Is this going to install two different (slotted) versions of
> > ncurses-5.9 on my stable machine?
> > 
> > If not, then this proposed update must be an experiment or a hack
> > or a workaround of some kind.  On my *stable* machine!  
> 
> It's a workaround, not an experiment as it's been tested for over a
> week. It's to get round an issue with subslots and some ebuilds not
> handling changes as expected (I won't say incorrectly as there seems
> to be some dispute over exactly what is defined in the PMS).AIUI the
> second ebuild simply depends on the first, so that all the ebuilds
> requiring ncurses work properly.
> 
> See https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=558952 for more
> information, probably more than you want to read.

Thanks also to wabe and Fernando for your replies.  Just for the record
I did the update this morning, which completed without errors.

qlop shows that both updates completed, but eix shows that I now have
only  ncurses-5.9-r5 installed.  (This is apparently the desired
result, but I'm only guessing what the desired result really is.)

I think every portage tool should announce very clearly whether a
package is slotted/subslotted, and exactly which slot and subslot the
package belongs in.  The subject of slots is way too confusing to
withhold such information.  If the devs can't explain slots to their
users then they don't understand it themselves.  (Hm.  That phrase
sounds familiar.  Where did I get that?)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 05:24:33 -0700, walt wrote:

> If the devs can't explain slots to their
> users then they don't understand it themselves.  (Hm.  That phrase
> sounds familiar.  Where did I get that?)

I think it is an Einstein quote that says something like "if you can't
explain it in simple terms, you don't understand it". He was probably
having a pop at Niels Bohr and quantum theory at the time.

Bohr said something like "if thinking about quantum theory doesn't give
you a headache, you don't understand it".


-- 
Neil Bothwick

BBS: (n.) a system for connecting computers and exchanging gossip,
     facts, and uninformed speculation under false names.

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[gentoo-user] Re: Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[James]

walt <w41ter <at> gmail.com> writes:


> > > Calculating dependencies... done!
> > > [ebuild     U  ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r5 [5.9-r3]
> > > [ebuild  NS    ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r99 [5.9-r3] USE="cxx gpm
> > > unicode -ada -static-libs -tinfo" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 

Weird. But the last week has been weird on ncurses. 

> Thanks also to wabe and Fernando for your replies.  Just for the record
> I did the update this morning, which completed without errors.


I synce early Monday morning and all went fine. But I ended up with these
on my stable system::
Installed versions:  5.9-r101(5)(08:55:43 PM 08/31/2015)((unicode)
6.0-r1(08:53:59 PM 08/31/2015)(cxx threads unicode)

> qlop shows that both updates completed, but eix shows that I now have
> only  ncurses-5.9-r5 installed.  (This is apparently the desired
> result, but I'm only guessing what the desired result really is.)

I use 'elogv' to look at the compile results and this combo I have
on a stable amd64 system has no issues. I upgrade about 30 packages
since the Monday morning sync/update of ncurses.


> I think every portage tool should announce very clearly whether a
> package is slotted/subslotted, and exactly which slot and subslot the
> package belongs in.  The subject of slots is way too confusing to
> withhold such information.  If the devs can't explain slots to their
> users then they don't understand it themselves.  (Hm.  That phrase
> sounds familiar.  Where did I get that?)


I cannot disagree with this sentiment, as a user.
But, now I'm hacking ebuilds out of misc. codes and stuff
I code and I have a wee bit more tolerance toward the
devs:: even when they screwup......


Besides, Vapier is not the most politically correct dev (ah hem.....)
but I'm glad he is mostly cleaning up the mess......
Also, you can look at the git logs (links previously posted by others)
and see when the codes last changed. 


hth,
James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[Jeremi Piotrowski]

On Wed, 2 Sep 2015, walt wrote:

> qlop shows that both updates completed, but eix shows that I now have
> only  ncurses-5.9-r5 installed.  (This is apparently the desired
> result, but I'm only guessing what the desired result really is.)

The desired output depends on what other packages you have installed but
for me it's having both ncurses-5.9-r5 ncurses-5.9-r99.


> I think every portage tool should announce very clearly whether a
> package is slotted/subslotted, and exactly which slot and subslot the
> package belongs in.  The subject of slots is way too confusing to
> withhold such information.  If the devs can't explain slots to their
> users then they don't understand it themselves.  (Hm.  That phrase
> sounds familiar.  Where did I get that?)
> 

I don't know why your portage display is different than mine, I always run
portage in verbose mode and it clearly shows me subslots:

    # emerge -uDUva @world

    These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

    Calculating dependencies... done!
    [ebuild     U  ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r5:0/5::gentoo [5.9-r3:0/0::gentoo] USE="..." ABI_X86="(64) -32 (-x32)" 2,761 KiB
    [ebuild  NS    ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r99:5::gentoo [5.9-r3:0::gentoo] USE="..." ABI_X86="(64) -32 (-x32)" 0 KiB

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[Alan McKinnon]

On 02/09/2015 15:04, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 05:24:33 -0700, walt wrote:
> 
>> If the devs can't explain slots to their
>> users then they don't understand it themselves.  (Hm.  That phrase
>> sounds familiar.  Where did I get that?)
> 
> I think it is an Einstein quote that says something like "if you can't
> explain it in simple terms, you don't understand it". He was probably
> having a pop at Niels Bohr and quantum theory at the time.
> 
> Bohr said something like "if thinking about quantum theory doesn't give
> you a headache, you don't understand it".
> 
> 

And Feynmann said something along the lines of "Anyone who claims to
understand quantum mechanics, doesn't".

Back to subslots and not replying to Neil directly: They aren't that
hard to grasp, they look like this:

cat/pkg/pkg-1.2:3/4

The SLOT is 3 and the subslot is 4. As usual, different versions of the
same package in different SLOTs can co-exist. Subslots are a different
matter, and it's an unfortunate choice of name, as they are *not* a
subset of a SLOT. Look at ncurses:

[I] sys-libs/ncurses
     Available versions:
     (0)    5.9-r3 (~)5.9-r4 5.9-r5(0/5) (~)6.0-r1(0/6)
     (5)    5.9-r99(5/5) (~)5.9-r101(5/5) (~)6.0(5/6)

There's 2 SLOTs (0 and 5), and both have versions of subslot 5 and 6.
Subslots are most useful for things like api/abi versions where upstream
breaks these but don't increment the major version, this is why we had
endless issues in the past where emerge world broke stuff horribly and
it only got fixed much later when we could run revdep-rebuild. Nowadays
we have better tools, if the subslot changes for a consumed library,
then all consuming packages need to be rebuilt.

Describing and defining subslots is not hard, neither are the operators.
The problem with subslots is the usual one - you have to deal with real
life, and in real life upstreams sometimes do peculiar things to their
code that doesn't exactly match the effect of a subslot operation.

Or put another way: subslot docs describe the effect you should end up
with, it's not always the same thing as what you *do* end up with.
Finding that out means testing every possible circumstances and seeing
the results, but there's an infinite variety of those.


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[Dale]

walt wrote:
> Thanks also to wabe and Fernando for your replies. Just for the record
> I did the update this morning, which completed without errors. qlop
> shows that both updates completed, but eix shows that I now have only
> ncurses-5.9-r5 installed. (This is apparently the desired result, but
> I'm only guessing what the desired result really is.) I think every
> portage tool should announce very clearly whether a package is
> slotted/subslotted, and exactly which slot and subslot the package
> belongs in. The subject of slots is way too confusing to withhold such
> information. If the devs can't explain slots to their users then they
> don't understand it themselves. (Hm. That phrase sounds familiar.
> Where did I get that?) 


I did this the other day, after skipping it several times while it got
sorted out, and I have this now.

[IP-] [  ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r5:0/5
[IP-] [  ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r99:5/5
 

Now, which of us is somewhat off the mark here?  :/ 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[gentoo-user] Re: Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[walt]

On Wed, 02 Sep 2015 10:53:00 -0500
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> walt wrote:
> > Thanks also to wabe and Fernando for your replies. Just for the
> > record I did the update this morning, which completed without
> > errors. qlop shows that both updates completed, but eix shows that
> > I now have only ncurses-5.9-r5 installed. (This is apparently the
> > desired result, but I'm only guessing what the desired result
> > really is.) I think every portage tool should announce very clearly
> > whether a package is slotted/subslotted, and exactly which slot and
> > subslot the package belongs in. The subject of slots is way too
> > confusing to withhold such information. If the devs can't explain
> > slots to their users then they don't understand it themselves. (Hm.
> > That phrase sounds familiar. Where did I get that?)   
> 
> 
> I did this the other day, after skipping it several times while it got
> sorted out, and I have this now.
> 
> [IP-] [  ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r5:0/5
> [IP-] [  ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r99:5/5
>  
> 
> Now, which of us is somewhat off the mark here?  :/ 

Both of us have been off the mark so many times I can't count that
high :p   I'm going to come back tomorrow when I'm more awake and
re-read this entire thread because every reply so far is full of good
info and advice.

I'm assuming you did that ncurses update on some flavor of gentoo
"unstable"?  (I know what a daredevil you are.)

Just for laughs, what does your "qlop -l ncurses" tell you about what
date you did the ncurses-5.9 update?

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[Dale]

walt wrote:
> On Wed, 02 Sep 2015 10:53:00 -0500
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> walt wrote:
>>> Thanks also to wabe and Fernando for your replies. Just for the
>>> record I did the update this morning, which completed without
>>> errors. qlop shows that both updates completed, but eix shows that
>>> I now have only ncurses-5.9-r5 installed. (This is apparently the
>>> desired result, but I'm only guessing what the desired result
>>> really is.) I think every portage tool should announce very clearly
>>> whether a package is slotted/subslotted, and exactly which slot and
>>> subslot the package belongs in. The subject of slots is way too
>>> confusing to withhold such information. If the devs can't explain
>>> slots to their users then they don't understand it themselves. (Hm.
>>> That phrase sounds familiar. Where did I get that?)   
>>
>> I did this the other day, after skipping it several times while it got
>> sorted out, and I have this now.
>>
>> [IP-] [  ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r5:0/5
>> [IP-] [  ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r99:5/5
>>  
>>
>> Now, which of us is somewhat off the mark here?  :/ 
> Both of us have been off the mark so many times I can't count that
> high :p   I'm going to come back tomorrow when I'm more awake and
> re-read this entire thread because every reply so far is full of good
> info and advice.
>
> I'm assuming you did that ncurses update on some flavor of gentoo
> "unstable"?  (I know what a daredevil you are.)
>
> Just for laughs, what does your "qlop -l ncurses" tell you about what
> date you did the ncurses-5.9 update?
>
>
>
>


This is what I get:

root@fireball / # qlop -l ncurses
Mon Dec 15 17:17:17 2014 >>> sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r3
Sun Mar 22 22:37:40 2015 >>> sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r3
Sun Mar 29 19:28:46 2015 >>> sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r3
Sat May 23 02:03:55 2015 >>> sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r3
Sat Aug 29 05:35:33 2015 >>> sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r5
Sat Aug 29 05:35:40 2015 >>> sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r99
root@fireball / # 

What I find odd is that some updated with no problems, some had minor
issues and then some had some serious issues.  It seems a dev may have
had to fix a few things but it seems differences between everyone else's
system then complicated things further. 

I do have some unstable here.  It usually starts when I want the latest
KDE due to a bug fix.  It seems to roll downhill at that point.  Anyway,
it works.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[gentoo-user] Re: Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[walt]

On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 15:34:43 +0200
Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 02/09/2015 15:04, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 05:24:33 -0700, walt wrote:
> >   
> >> If the devs can't explain slots to their
> >> users then they don't understand it themselves.  (Hm.  That phrase
> >> sounds familiar.  Where did I get that?)  
> > 
> > I think it is an Einstein quote that says something like "if you
> > can't explain it in simple terms, you don't understand it". He was
> > probably having a pop at Niels Bohr and quantum theory at the time.
> > 
> > Bohr said something like "if thinking about quantum theory doesn't
> > give you a headache, you don't understand it".
> > 
> >   
> 
> And Feynmann said something along the lines of "Anyone who claims to
> understand quantum mechanics, doesn't".
> 
> Back to subslots and not replying to Neil directly: They aren't that
> hard to grasp, they look like this:
> 
> cat/pkg/pkg-1.2:3/4
> 
> The SLOT is 3 and the subslot is 4. As usual, different versions of
> the same package in different SLOTs can co-exist. Subslots are a
> different matter, and it's an unfortunate choice of name, as they are
> *not* a subset of a SLOT. Look at ncurses:
> 
> [I] sys-libs/ncurses
>      Available versions:
>      (0)    5.9-r3 (~)5.9-r4 5.9-r5(0/5) (~)6.0-r1(0/6)
>      (5)    5.9-r99(5/5) (~)5.9-r101(5/5) (~)6.0(5/6)
> 
> There's 2 SLOTs (0 and 5), and both have versions of subslot 5 and 6.
> Subslots are most useful for things like api/abi versions where
> upstream breaks these but don't increment the major version, this is
> why we had endless issues in the past where emerge world broke stuff
> horribly and it only got fixed much later when we could run
> revdep-rebuild. Nowadays we have better tools, if the subslot changes
> for a consumed library, then all consuming packages need to be
> rebuilt.
> 
> Describing and defining subslots is not hard, neither are the
> operators. The problem with subslots is the usual one - you have to
> deal with real life, and in real life upstreams sometimes do peculiar
> things to their code that doesn't exactly match the effect of a
> subslot operation.
> 
> Or put another way: subslot docs describe the effect you should end up
> with, it's not always the same thing as what you *do* end up with.
> Finding that out means testing every possible circumstances and seeing
> the results, but there's an infinite variety of those.

I just updated my virtualbox ~amd64 guest and all went well when I ran
emerge ncurses:5/5, so I'm encouraged but not fearless about doing the
same on my real machine.  I'm going to be quickpkged to the max before
I try it.

BTW, emerge world on the vbox guest did not offer to touch ncurses in
any way.  I had to do it manually as I just said.  

Leveraging Neil's quote:  thinking about slots (and their misnamed
subslots) gives me a 4-dimensional headache.

Anyway, thanks for the helpful explanation.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[Fernando Rodriguez]

On Thursday, September 03, 2015 9:10:26 AM walt wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 15:34:43 +0200
> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 02/09/2015 15:04, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > > On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 05:24:33 -0700, walt wrote:
> > >   
> > >> If the devs can't explain slots to their
> > >> users then they don't understand it themselves.  (Hm.  That phrase
> > >> sounds familiar.  Where did I get that?)  
> > > 
> > > I think it is an Einstein quote that says something like "if you
> > > can't explain it in simple terms, you don't understand it". He was
> > > probably having a pop at Niels Bohr and quantum theory at the time.
> > > 
> > > Bohr said something like "if thinking about quantum theory doesn't
> > > give you a headache, you don't understand it".
> > > 
> > >   
> > 
> > And Feynmann said something along the lines of "Anyone who claims to
> > understand quantum mechanics, doesn't".
> > 
> > Back to subslots and not replying to Neil directly: They aren't that
> > hard to grasp, they look like this:
> > 
> > cat/pkg/pkg-1.2:3/4
> > 
> > The SLOT is 3 and the subslot is 4. As usual, different versions of
> > the same package in different SLOTs can co-exist. Subslots are a
> > different matter, and it's an unfortunate choice of name, as they are
> > *not* a subset of a SLOT. Look at ncurses:
> > 
> > [I] sys-libs/ncurses
> >      Available versions:
> >      (0)    5.9-r3 (~)5.9-r4 5.9-r5(0/5) (~)6.0-r1(0/6)
> >      (5)    5.9-r99(5/5) (~)5.9-r101(5/5) (~)6.0(5/6)
> > 
> > There's 2 SLOTs (0 and 5), and both have versions of subslot 5 and 6.
> > Subslots are most useful for things like api/abi versions where
> > upstream breaks these but don't increment the major version, this is
> > why we had endless issues in the past where emerge world broke stuff
> > horribly and it only got fixed much later when we could run
> > revdep-rebuild. Nowadays we have better tools, if the subslot changes
> > for a consumed library, then all consuming packages need to be
> > rebuilt.
> > 
> > Describing and defining subslots is not hard, neither are the
> > operators. The problem with subslots is the usual one - you have to
> > deal with real life, and in real life upstreams sometimes do peculiar
> > things to their code that doesn't exactly match the effect of a
> > subslot operation.
> > 
> > Or put another way: subslot docs describe the effect you should end up
> > with, it's not always the same thing as what you *do* end up with.
> > Finding that out means testing every possible circumstances and seeing
> > the results, but there's an infinite variety of those.
> 
> I just updated my virtualbox ~amd64 guest and all went well when I ran
> emerge ncurses:5/5, so I'm encouraged but not fearless about doing the
> same on my real machine.  I'm going to be quickpkged to the max before
> I try it.
> 
> BTW, emerge world on the vbox guest did not offer to touch ncurses in
> any way.  I had to do it manually as I just said.  
> 
> Leveraging Neil's quote:  thinking about slots (and their misnamed
> subslots) gives me a 4-dimensional headache.

I don't think they're misnamed, the problem is in our heads. As end users 
we've come to accept that they can be co-installed as the defining property of 
slots. But they're about the same in every other way AFAIU.

-- 
Fernando Rodriguez

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[Alan McKinnon]

On 03/09/2015 21:09, Fernando Rodriguez wrote:
> On Thursday, September 03, 2015 9:10:26 AM walt wrote:
>> On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 15:34:43 +0200
>> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 02/09/2015 15:04, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 05:24:33 -0700, walt wrote:
>>>>   
>>>>> If the devs can't explain slots to their
>>>>> users then they don't understand it themselves.  (Hm.  That phrase
>>>>> sounds familiar.  Where did I get that?)  
>>>>
>>>> I think it is an Einstein quote that says something like "if you
>>>> can't explain it in simple terms, you don't understand it". He was
>>>> probably having a pop at Niels Bohr and quantum theory at the time.
>>>>
>>>> Bohr said something like "if thinking about quantum theory doesn't
>>>> give you a headache, you don't understand it".
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>
>>> And Feynmann said something along the lines of "Anyone who claims to
>>> understand quantum mechanics, doesn't".
>>>
>>> Back to subslots and not replying to Neil directly: They aren't that
>>> hard to grasp, they look like this:
>>>
>>> cat/pkg/pkg-1.2:3/4
>>>
>>> The SLOT is 3 and the subslot is 4. As usual, different versions of
>>> the same package in different SLOTs can co-exist. Subslots are a
>>> different matter, and it's an unfortunate choice of name, as they are
>>> *not* a subset of a SLOT. Look at ncurses:
>>>
>>> [I] sys-libs/ncurses
>>>      Available versions:
>>>      (0)    5.9-r3 (~)5.9-r4 5.9-r5(0/5) (~)6.0-r1(0/6)
>>>      (5)    5.9-r99(5/5) (~)5.9-r101(5/5) (~)6.0(5/6)
>>>
>>> There's 2 SLOTs (0 and 5), and both have versions of subslot 5 and 6.
>>> Subslots are most useful for things like api/abi versions where
>>> upstream breaks these but don't increment the major version, this is
>>> why we had endless issues in the past where emerge world broke stuff
>>> horribly and it only got fixed much later when we could run
>>> revdep-rebuild. Nowadays we have better tools, if the subslot changes
>>> for a consumed library, then all consuming packages need to be
>>> rebuilt.
>>>
>>> Describing and defining subslots is not hard, neither are the
>>> operators. The problem with subslots is the usual one - you have to
>>> deal with real life, and in real life upstreams sometimes do peculiar
>>> things to their code that doesn't exactly match the effect of a
>>> subslot operation.
>>>
>>> Or put another way: subslot docs describe the effect you should end up
>>> with, it's not always the same thing as what you *do* end up with.
>>> Finding that out means testing every possible circumstances and seeing
>>> the results, but there's an infinite variety of those.
>>
>> I just updated my virtualbox ~amd64 guest and all went well when I ran
>> emerge ncurses:5/5, so I'm encouraged but not fearless about doing the
>> same on my real machine.  I'm going to be quickpkged to the max before
>> I try it.
>>
>> BTW, emerge world on the vbox guest did not offer to touch ncurses in
>> any way.  I had to do it manually as I just said.  
>>
>> Leveraging Neil's quote:  thinking about slots (and their misnamed
>> subslots) gives me a 4-dimensional headache.
> 
> I don't think they're misnamed, the problem is in our heads. As end users 
> we've come to accept that they can be co-installed as the defining property of 
> slots. But they're about the same in every other way AFAIU.
> 


[I] sys-libs/ncurses
     Available versions:
     (0)    5.9-r3 (~)5.9-r4 5.9-r5(0/5) (~)6.0-r1(0/6)
     (5)    5.9-r99(5/5) (~)5.9-r101(5/5) (~)6.0(5/6)


I still maintain the name could be better and less confusing. The SLOTs
for ncurses are simply. But what kind of sub-thing are subslots 5 & 6?
And what are they a subset of?


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[Fernando Rodriguez]

On Thursday, September 03, 2015 10:44:49 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 03/09/2015 21:09, Fernando Rodriguez wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 03, 2015 9:10:26 AM walt wrote:
> >> On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 15:34:43 +0200
> >> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 02/09/2015 15:04, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 05:24:33 -0700, walt wrote:
> >>>>   
> >>>>> If the devs can't explain slots to their
> >>>>> users then they don't understand it themselves.  (Hm.  That phrase
> >>>>> sounds familiar.  Where did I get that?)  
> >>>>
> >>>> I think it is an Einstein quote that says something like "if you
> >>>> can't explain it in simple terms, you don't understand it". He was
> >>>> probably having a pop at Niels Bohr and quantum theory at the time.
> >>>>
> >>>> Bohr said something like "if thinking about quantum theory doesn't
> >>>> give you a headache, you don't understand it".
> >>>>
> >>>>   
> >>>
> >>> And Feynmann said something along the lines of "Anyone who claims to
> >>> understand quantum mechanics, doesn't".
> >>>
> >>> Back to subslots and not replying to Neil directly: They aren't that
> >>> hard to grasp, they look like this:
> >>>
> >>> cat/pkg/pkg-1.2:3/4
> >>>
> >>> The SLOT is 3 and the subslot is 4. As usual, different versions of
> >>> the same package in different SLOTs can co-exist. Subslots are a
> >>> different matter, and it's an unfortunate choice of name, as they are
> >>> *not* a subset of a SLOT. Look at ncurses:
> >>>
> >>> [I] sys-libs/ncurses
> >>>      Available versions:
> >>>      (0)    5.9-r3 (~)5.9-r4 5.9-r5(0/5) (~)6.0-r1(0/6)
> >>>      (5)    5.9-r99(5/5) (~)5.9-r101(5/5) (~)6.0(5/6)
> >>>
> >>> There's 2 SLOTs (0 and 5), and both have versions of subslot 5 and 6.
> >>> Subslots are most useful for things like api/abi versions where
> >>> upstream breaks these but don't increment the major version, this is
> >>> why we had endless issues in the past where emerge world broke stuff
> >>> horribly and it only got fixed much later when we could run
> >>> revdep-rebuild. Nowadays we have better tools, if the subslot changes
> >>> for a consumed library, then all consuming packages need to be
> >>> rebuilt.
> >>>
> >>> Describing and defining subslots is not hard, neither are the
> >>> operators. The problem with subslots is the usual one - you have to
> >>> deal with real life, and in real life upstreams sometimes do peculiar
> >>> things to their code that doesn't exactly match the effect of a
> >>> subslot operation.
> >>>
> >>> Or put another way: subslot docs describe the effect you should end up
> >>> with, it's not always the same thing as what you *do* end up with.
> >>> Finding that out means testing every possible circumstances and seeing
> >>> the results, but there's an infinite variety of those.
> >>
> >> I just updated my virtualbox ~amd64 guest and all went well when I ran
> >> emerge ncurses:5/5, so I'm encouraged but not fearless about doing the
> >> same on my real machine.  I'm going to be quickpkged to the max before
> >> I try it.
> >>
> >> BTW, emerge world on the vbox guest did not offer to touch ncurses in
> >> any way.  I had to do it manually as I just said.  
> >>
> >> Leveraging Neil's quote:  thinking about slots (and their misnamed
> >> subslots) gives me a 4-dimensional headache.
> > 
> > I don't think they're misnamed, the problem is in our heads. As end users 
> > we've come to accept that they can be co-installed as the defining property 
of 
> > slots. But they're about the same in every other way AFAIU.
> > 
> 
> 
> [I] sys-libs/ncurses
>      Available versions:
>      (0)    5.9-r3 (~)5.9-r4 5.9-r5(0/5) (~)6.0-r1(0/6)
>      (5)    5.9-r99(5/5) (~)5.9-r101(5/5) (~)6.0(5/6)
> 
> 
> I still maintain the name could be better and less confusing. The SLOTs
> for ncurses are simply. But what kind of sub-thing are subslots 5 & 6?
> And what are they a subset of?

I agree that it is confusing, and the ncurses case makes it more so because 
they're being used in an unusual way. But when you think about it makes some 
sense at least. The functionality of a subslot is a subset of the 
functionality of a slot. Another way to think of it is slots are major 
versions and subslots are minor versions that still have some ABI change...or 
sub-versions :P

-- 
Fernando Rodriguez

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[Stefan G. Weichinger]

>>>>>> I think it is an Einstein quote 

[..]

>>>>> And Feynmann said something 

[..]

>>> I don't think they're misnamed, the problem is in our heads.

[..]

tl;dr

I don't care.
I want to be a gentoo-USER (see name of ml).

Don't get me wrong, I like fuzzing around with details etc (and most
people subscribed here know that from various threads I triggered ...).

But don't you agree that it *should* be possible to simply pull upgrades
from the distro of choice without solving "problems in my head" ?

IMO it's the definition of maintainers to keep that level of complexity
away from the plain users. Especially for users of the stable "branch"
(the OP of this thread wrote "stable" = amd64 machine).

I admit: maybe I miss some point here because I didn't read the whole
thread.

IMO "stable" should result in a (mostly ...) carefree and maintained
experience for the user.

opinions welcome.

Stefan

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[Alan McKinnon]

On 04/09/2015 00:05, Stefan G. Weichinger wrote:
> 
>>>>>>> I think it is an Einstein quote 
> 
> [..]
> 
>>>>>> And Feynmann said something 
> 
> [..]
> 
>>>> I don't think they're misnamed, the problem is in our heads.
> 
> [..]
> 
> tl;dr
> 
> I don't care.
> I want to be a gentoo-USER (see name of ml).
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I like fuzzing around with details etc (and most
> people subscribed here know that from various threads I triggered ...).
> 
> But don't you agree that it *should* be possible to simply pull upgrades
> from the distro of choice without solving "problems in my head" ?
> 
> IMO it's the definition of maintainers to keep that level of complexity
> away from the plain users. Especially for users of the stable "branch"
> (the OP of this thread wrote "stable" = amd64 machine).
> 
> I admit: maybe I miss some point here because I didn't read the whole
> thread.
> 
> IMO "stable" should result in a (mostly ...) carefree and maintained
> experience for the user.


Sure. That's a valid POV.

Gentoo config should be declarative, not imperative. You should tell it
*what* you want, not *how* to do it. Packages and SLOTs are
user-visible, they define what you want. Sub-slots, although I think I
understand them, are a poorly though out implementation as they expose
part of the how to the user. Worse, they sometimes make the user decide.

And the name is confusing, it's all indicative of the concept not being
thought all the way through.


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 4 Sep 2015 00:05:27 +0200, Stefan G. Weichinger wrote:

> But don't you agree that it *should* be possible to simply pull upgrades
> from the distro of choice without solving "problems in my head" ?
> 
> IMO it's the definition of maintainers to keep that level of complexity
> away from the plain users. Especially for users of the stable "branch"
> (the OP of this thread wrote "stable" = amd64 machine).

It should, but this is not an ideal world. The ncurses thing was simply a
bug that affected a lot of people because subslots didn't work in the way
some devs expected. It should have worked but some thing broke and it
didn't, then a bug report was filed, the problem discussed and fixed, so
now you can just upgrade without a problem.

This does add weight to Alan's argument that subslots are not that well
thought out, but Gentoo (like life) is a perpetual work in progress.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

The sooner you fall behind the more time you'll have to catch up.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[Peter Humphrey]

On Friday 04 September 2015 01:01:34 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 04/09/2015 00:05, Stefan G. Weichinger wrote:
> >>>>>>> I think it is an Einstein quote
> > 
> > [..]
> > 
> >>>>>> And Feynmann said something
> > 
> > [..]
> > 
> >>>> I don't think they're misnamed, the problem is in our heads.
> > 
> > [..]
> > 
> > tl;dr
> > 
> > I don't care.
> > I want to be a gentoo-USER (see name of ml).
> > 
> > Don't get me wrong, I like fuzzing around with details etc (and most
> > people subscribed here know that from various threads I triggered ...).
> > 
> > But don't you agree that it *should* be possible to simply pull upgrades
> > from the distro of choice without solving "problems in my head" ?
> > 
> > IMO it's the definition of maintainers to keep that level of complexity
> > away from the plain users. Especially for users of the stable "branch"
> > (the OP of this thread wrote "stable" = amd64 machine).
> > 
> > I admit: maybe I miss some point here because I didn't read the whole
> > thread.
> > 
> > IMO "stable" should result in a (mostly ...) carefree and maintained
> > experience for the user.
> 
> Sure. That's a valid POV.
> 
> Gentoo config should be declarative, not imperative. You should tell it
> *what* you want, not *how* to do it. Packages and SLOTs are
> user-visible, they define what you want. Sub-slots, although I think I
> understand them, are a poorly though out implementation as they expose
> part of the how to the user. Worse, they sometimes make the user decide.
> 
> And the name is confusing, it's all indicative of the concept not being
> thought all the way through.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who has trouble with the ways other 
people use English.  :)

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 04 Sep 2015 10:52:23 +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote:

> > And the name is confusing, it's all indicative of the concept not
> > being thought all the way through.  
> 
> I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who has trouble with the ways
> other people use English.  :)

That's what you get when you cross a pedant with an old fart :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Secret hacker rule #11: hackers read manuals.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage is proposing an ncurses update and I don't understand what it means

[Peter Humphrey]

On Friday 04 September 2015 11:29:17 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Sep 2015 10:52:23 +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > > And the name is confusing, it's all indicative of the concept not
> > > being thought all the way through.
> > 
> > I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who has trouble with the ways
> > other people use English.  :)
> 
> That's what you get when you cross a pedant with an old fart :)

No, you get a litter of young farts who grow up to be pedants.  :P

-- 
Rgds
Peter