* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [HEADSUP] libreoffice versus bison-2.5
2011-05-25 12:46 ` [gentoo-user] Re: [HEADSUP] " Indi
@ 2011-05-25 14:19 ` Paul Hartman
2011-05-25 16:54 ` Alan McKinnon
2011-05-25 17:13 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Paul Hartman @ 2011-05-25 14:19 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger@gmail.com> wrote:
> For people already running kde it's ok, but for the rest of us
> it's a bit ridiculous, isn't it?
If he was already using Qt4, it might not have seemed so bad. ;) I
think much of that list are from Qt4 and its dependencies. Other than
kdelibs, kde-env, kdepimlibs, oxygen-icons I don't see much generic
KDE stuff (not counting koffice since that's what he was installing).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [HEADSUP] libreoffice versus bison-2.5
2011-05-25 12:46 ` [gentoo-user] Re: [HEADSUP] " Indi
2011-05-25 14:19 ` Paul Hartman
@ 2011-05-25 16:54 ` Alan McKinnon
2011-05-25 17:13 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Alan McKinnon @ 2011-05-25 16:54 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Apparently, though unproven, at 14:46 on Wednesday 25 May 2011, Indi did opine
thusly:
> For people already running kde it's ok, but for the rest of us
> it's a bit ridiculous, isn't it?
> I used to use a few "k" apps in the 3 days, they were small and
> easily integrated into the system. Now kde is like it's own OS,
> so they've basically eliminated their apps from consideration of
> non-kde users.
>
> Not that it matters much to me, one of the strengths of gentoo
> is how many ways there are to do a given task.
> But there are quite a few kde zealots who seem to be completely
> unaware of what we mean by "fast, light, standalone".
>
> I guess some people didn't experience the 80s or 90s.
>
> :)
It doesn't make sense running koffice without also running KDE, it's a hard
requirement.
And not only did I experience the 80s and 90s, but the 70s as well.
So now that you have defined what fast, light, standalone means by your
current needs, it is obvious that no such package exists and hence there is a
gap in the market.
Now we know what your next project will be.
--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [HEADSUP] libreoffice versus bison-2.5
2011-05-25 12:46 ` [gentoo-user] Re: [HEADSUP] " Indi
2011-05-25 14:19 ` Paul Hartman
2011-05-25 16:54 ` Alan McKinnon
@ 2011-05-25 17:13 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2011-05-25 20:11 ` Alan McKinnon
` (2 more replies)
2 siblings, 3 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Volker Armin Hemmann @ 2011-05-25 17:13 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Wednesday 25 May 2011 08:46:48 Indi wrote:
> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 10:00:03AM +0200, Walter Dnes wrote:
> > On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 11:31:40PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote
> >
> > > No, I think you need to get real. It's 2011, what did you expect?
> > >
> > Here's what I don't expect. I run a tight ship on my machine. I
> >
> > currently have gnumeric and AbiWord and libreoffice-bin running uncer
> > icewm. In order to get "emerge -p app-office/kword" to actually start,
> > I had to...
> >
> > !) remove "sys-apps/dbus" from /etc/portage/package.mask
> >
> > 2) add the following to /etc/portage/package.use
> >
> > x11-libs/qt-sql qt3support
> > x11-libs/qt-core qt3support ssl exceptions
> > x11-libs/qt-gui qt3support accessibility dbus
> > x11-libs/qt-qt3support accessibility kde
> > x11-libs/qt-svg accessibility
> > x11-libs/qt-opengl qt3support
> > x11-libs/qt-webkit kde
> > sys-block/parted device-mapper
> > sys-fs/udev extras
> > sys-auth/consolekit policykit
> > x11-libs/qt-declarative qt3support
> >
> > 3) and here is the 390 megabytes of stuff to emerge...
> > gebuild N ] dev-libs/libgpg-error-1.10 USE="-common-lisp -nls
> > -static-libs" [ebuild N ] dev-libs/libical-0.43
> > [ebuild N ] dev-util/boost-build-1.42.0 USE="-examples -python"
> > [ebuild N ] sys-apps/sdparm-1.03
> > [ebuild N ] sys-power/pm-quirks-20100619
> > [ebuild N ] sys-block/eject-2.1.5-r2 USE="-nls"
> > [ebuild N ] kde-base/oxygen-icons-4.6.2 USE="(-aqua)
> > (-kdeenablefinal) (-kdeprefix)" [ebuild N ] sys-apps/dbus-1.4.6
> > USE="X -debug -doc (-selinux) -static-libs -test" [ebuild N ]
> > dev-cpp/eigen-2.0.13 USE="-debug -doc -examples" [ebuild N ]
> > dev-libs/libassuan-2.0.1 USE="-static-libs"
> > [ebuild N ] dev-libs/cyrus-sasl-2.1.23-r1 USE="-authdaemond -berkdb
> > -crypt -gdbm -java -kerberos -ldap -mysql -ntlm_unsupported_patch -pam
> > -postgres -sample -sqlite -srp -ssl -urandom" [ebuild N ]
> > dev-libs/libksba-1.2.0 USE="-static-libs"
> > [ebuild N ] dev-libs/libgcrypt-1.4.6 USE="-static-libs"
> > [ebuild N ] dev-libs/pth-2.0.7-r2 USE="-debug"
> > [ebuild N ] app-admin/eselect-boost-0.3
> > [ebuild NS ] app-text/docbook-xml-dtd-4.2-r2 [4.3-r1]
> > [ebuild N ] dev-libs/libpcre-8.12 USE="bzip2 (unicode) zlib -cxx
> > -recursion-limit -static-libs" [ebuild N ]
> > x11-libs/libXScrnSaver-1.2.1 USE="-static-libs" [ebuild N ]
> > kde-base/kde-env-4.6.2 USE="(-aqua) (-kdeenablefinal) (-kdeprefix)"
> > [ebuild N ] sys-apps/attr-2.4.44 USE="-nls"
> > [ebuild N ] dev-cpp/clucene-0.9.21b-r1 USE="threads -debug -doc
> > -static-libs" [ebuild NS ] virtual/libusb-0 [1]
> > [ebuild N ] virtual/eject-0
> > [ebuild N ] app-crypt/pinentry-0.8.0 USE="-caps -gtk -ncurses -qt4
> > -static" [ebuild N ] dev-libs/dbus-glib-0.92 USE="-bash-completion
> > -debug -doc -static-libs -test" [ebuild N ] app-crypt/gnupg-2.0.17
> > USE="bzip2 -adns -caps -doc -ldap -nls -openct -pcsc-lite (-selinux)
> > -smartcard -static" [ebuild N ] dev-libs/boost-1.42.0-r2
> > USE="-debug -doc -eselect -icu -mpi -python -static-libs -test -tools"
> > [ebuild N ] app-misc/strigi-0.7.1 USE="exif -clucene -dbus -debug
> > -fam -hyperestraier -inotify (-log) -qt4 -test" [ebuild N ]
> > sys-apps/acl-2.2.49 USE="(-nfs) -nls"
> > [ebuild N ] sys-power/pm-utils-1.4.1 USE="-alsa -debug
> > -networkmanager -ntp" VIDEO_CARDS="intel -radeon" [ebuild R ]
> > sys-fs/udev-151-r4 USE="extras*"
> > [ebuild N ] app-crypt/gpgme-1.3.0 USE="-common-lisp -pth"
> > [ebuild N ] sys-fs/lvm2-2.02.73-r1 USE="(-clvm) (-cman) -lvm1
> > -readline (-selinux) -static" [ebuild N ] dev-libs/libatasmart-0.17
> > USE="-static-libs"
> > [ebuild N ] sys-block/parted-2.3 USE="device-mapper -debug -nls
> > -readline (-selinux)" [ebuild N ] x11-libs/qt-core-4.7.2-r1
> > USE="exceptions qt3support ssl (-aqua) -debug -glib -iconv -jit
> > -optimized-qmake -pch -private-headers" [ebuild N ]
> > x11-libs/qt-sql-4.7.2 USE="qt3support (-aqua) -debug -exceptions
> > (-firebird) -freetds -iconv -mysql -odbc -pch -postgres -sqlite"
> > [ebuild N ] x11-libs/qt-script-4.7.2 USE="(-aqua) -debug
> > -exceptions -iconv -jit -pch -private-headers" [ebuild N ]
> > x11-libs/qt-test-4.7.2 USE="(-aqua) -debug -exceptions -iconv -pch"
> > [ebuild N ] dev-util/automoc-0.9.88
> > [ebuild N ] x11-libs/qt-dbus-4.7.2 USE="(-aqua) -debug -exceptions
> > -pch" [ebuild N ] x11-libs/qt-xmlpatterns-4.7.2 USE="(-aqua)
> > -debug -pch" [ebuild N ] dev-libs/soprano-2.6.0 USE="-clucene
> > -dbus -debug -doc -raptor -redland -test -virtuoso" [ebuild N ]
> > app-crypt/qca-2.0.3 USE="(-aqua) -debug -doc -examples" [ebuild N
> > ] dev-libs/libattica-0.2.0 USE="-debug"
> > [ebuild N ] x11-libs/qt-gui-4.7.2 USE="accessibility dbus mng
> > qt3support tiff (-aqua) -cups -debug -egl -exceptions -glib -gtkstyle
> > -nas -nis -pch -private-headers -raster -trace -xinerama" [ebuild N
> > ] x11-libs/qt-qt3support-4.7.2 USE="accessibility kde (-aqua) -debug
> > -exceptions -pch -phonon" [ebuild N ] x11-libs/qt-svg-4.7.2
> > USE="accessibility (-aqua) -debug -exceptions -iconv -pch" [ebuild N
> > ] x11-libs/qt-opengl-4.7.2 USE="qt3support (-aqua) -debug -egl
> > -exceptions -pch" [ebuild N ] media-libs/phonon-4.5.0 USE="(-aqua)
> > -debug -gstreamer -pulseaudio -vlc -xine" [ebuild N ]
> > dev-libs/libdbusmenu-qt-0.6.2 USE="-debug -test" [ebuild N ]
> > x11-libs/qt-webkit-4.7.2 USE="kde (-aqua) -dbus -debug -exceptions
> > -jit -pch" [ebuild N ] x11-libs/qt-declarative-4.7.2-r1
> > USE="qt3support (-aqua) -debug -exceptions -pch -private-headers
> > -webkit" [ebuild N ] sys-auth/polkit-0.101-r1 USE="-debug -doc
> > -examples -gtk (-introspection) -kde -nls -pam" [ebuild N ]
> > sys-auth/consolekit-0.4.4 USE="policykit -debug -doc -pam -test"
> > [ebuild N ] sys-power/upower-0.9.8 USE="-debug -doc
> > (-introspection) -ios" [ebuild N ] sys-apps/sg3_utils-1.29
> > [ebuild N ] sys-apps/rescan-scsi-bus-1.29
> > [ebuild N ] sys-fs/udisks-1.0.2-r1 USE="-bash-completion -debug
> > -doc -nls -remote-access" [ebuild N ] kde-base/kdelibs-4.6.2-r3
> > USE="bzip2 mmx opengl sse sse2 -3dnow -acl -alsa (-altivec) (-aqua)
> > -bindist -debug -doc -fam -handbook -jpeg2k (-kdeenablefinal)
> > (-kdeprefix) -kerberos -lzma -nls -openexr -policykit -semantic-desktop
> > -spell -ssl -test -udev -zeroconf" [ebuild N ]
> > app-office/koffice-data-2.3.3 USE="(-aqua) (-kdeenablefinal)" [ebuild
> > N ] kde-base/kdepimlibs-4.6.2-r1 USE="(-aqua) -debug -handbook
> > (-kdeenablefinal) (-kdeprefix) -ldap -semantic-desktop -test" [ebuild
> > N ] app-office/koffice-libs-2.3.3 USE="opengl (-aqua) -crypt -debug
> > (-kdeenablefinal) -openexr -reports -test" [ebuild N ]
> > app-office/kword-2.3.3 USE="(-aqua) -debug (-kdeenablefinal) -wpd"
>
> For people already running kde it's ok, but for the rest of us
> it's a bit ridiculous, isn't it?
> I used to use a few "k" apps in the 3 days, they were small and
> easily integrated into the system. Now kde is like it's own OS,
> so they've basically eliminated their apps from consideration of
> non-kde users.
>
> Not that it matters much to me, one of the strengths of gentoo
> is how many ways there are to do a given task.
> But there are quite a few kde zealots who seem to be completely
> unaware of what we mean by "fast, light, standalone".
and have you ever heard of 'code reuse' or 'modularity'?
It seems - no.
Because KDE itself might be huge. But once loaded the apps are pretty small -
because they reuse code. kmail does not have its own html engine. It does not
matter where you type your text etc pp.
Overall KDE uses LESS ram then most 'lightweight' solutions. Because
xterm&abiword&some odd pager&thunderbird don't look so good anymore.
This gem is a couple of years old, but still a worthy read:
http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html
Read it. Seriously.
Oh - and you should spend some time on Alan's postings. He is not only a
certified OLD FART, he has some serious first hand, real world experience that
makes most of the other OLD FARTs on this list look like noobs.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [HEADSUP] libreoffice versus bison-2.5
2011-05-25 17:13 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
@ 2011-05-25 20:11 ` Alan McKinnon
2011-05-25 21:49 ` Neil Bothwick
2011-05-25 23:00 ` Alex Schuster
2011-05-26 4:50 ` Walter Dnes
2 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Alan McKinnon @ 2011-05-25 20:11 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Apparently, though unproven, at 19:13 on Wednesday 25 May 2011, Volker Armin
Hemmann did opine thusly:
> Oh - and you should spend some time on Alan's postings. He is not only a
> certified OLD FART, he has some serious first hand, real world experience
> that makes most of the other OLD FARTs on this list look like noobs.
Oh, I don't know about that so much. OK, I agree on the old fart bit.
But many days Neil and Paul can make me look like a blithering idiot :-)
Incidentally, this gentoo-user list has the highest concentration of seriously
knowledgeable folk across a wide spectrum of any list/forum/whatever I've ever
come across. Sometimes, it's frightening.
I just wanted to put that out there - positive reinforcement.
--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [HEADSUP] libreoffice versus bison-2.5
2011-05-25 17:13 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2011-05-25 20:11 ` Alan McKinnon
@ 2011-05-25 23:00 ` Alex Schuster
2011-05-26 4:50 ` Walter Dnes
2 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Alex Schuster @ 2011-05-25 23:00 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Volker Armin Hemmann writes:
> This gem is a couple of years old, but still a worthy read:
>
> http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html
>
>
> Read it. Seriously.
Interesting. I'd like to also see KDE4 values :)
BTW, according to the author, the only real memory usage information
utility is Exmap. It's in portage, but when I run it (both exmtool and
gexmap, and the exmap kernel module is loaded), it outputs lots of
stuff, then aborts with 'start pgnum out of range'. Is anyone actually
using it?
Wonko
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [HEADSUP] libreoffice versus bison-2.5
2011-05-25 17:13 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2011-05-25 20:11 ` Alan McKinnon
2011-05-25 23:00 ` Alex Schuster
@ 2011-05-26 4:50 ` Walter Dnes
2011-05-26 8:11 ` Mick
2 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Walter Dnes @ 2011-05-26 4:50 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 07:13:41PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
> On Wednesday 25 May 2011 08:46:48 Indi wrote:
> and have you ever heard of 'code reuse' or 'modularity'?
>
> It seems - no.
>
> Because KDE itself might be huge. But once loaded the apps are pretty small -
> because they reuse code. kmail does not have its own html engine. It does not
> matter where you type your text etc pp.
Sorta like Internet Explorer in Windows. It "loads" a lot faster and
lighter than Firefox or Opera. That's because ie.exe is merely a "front
end" to a bunch of libraries that are loaded at boot time, which
contributes to the boot process taking do long. Starting ie.exe takes
hardly any time, because 90% of the app is already loaded.
> Overall KDE uses LESS ram then most 'lightweight' solutions. Because
> xterm&abiword&some odd pager&thunderbird don't look so good anymore.
>
> This gem is a couple of years old, but still a worthy read:
>
> http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html
>
>
> Read it. Seriously.
I don't know how good "exmap" is, but my personal experience is quite
different. Between Fall 1999 and Summer 2007 I had a Dell Dimension
with a 450 mhz PIII and 128 megs of *SYSTEM RAM* (no not the video card).
It was actually quite usable to the very end, with Blackbox WM, and
running a few apps. Meanwhile, KDE (and GNOME for that matter) would
take forever to load and make the system crawl after that, even with 1
or 2 apps loaded.
--
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [HEADSUP] libreoffice versus bison-2.5
2011-05-26 4:50 ` Walter Dnes
@ 2011-05-26 8:11 ` Mick
2011-05-26 8:54 ` Jesús J. Guerrero Botella
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Mick @ 2011-05-26 8:11 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 3028 bytes --]
On Thursday 26 May 2011 05:50:14 Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 07:13:41PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
>
> > On Wednesday 25 May 2011 08:46:48 Indi wrote:
> >
> > and have you ever heard of 'code reuse' or 'modularity'?
> >
> > It seems - no.
> >
> > Because KDE itself might be huge. But once loaded the apps are pretty
> > small - because they reuse code. kmail does not have its own html
> > engine. It does not matter where you type your text etc pp.
>
> Sorta like Internet Explorer in Windows. It "loads" a lot faster and
> lighter than Firefox or Opera. That's because ie.exe is merely a "front
> end" to a bunch of libraries that are loaded at boot time, which
> contributes to the boot process taking do long. Starting ie.exe takes
> hardly any time, because 90% of the app is already loaded.
>
> > Overall KDE uses LESS ram then most 'lightweight' solutions. Because
> > xterm&abiword&some odd pager&thunderbird don't look so good anymore.
> >
> > This gem is a couple of years old, but still a worthy read:
> >
> > http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html
> >
> >
> > Read it. Seriously.
>
> I don't know how good "exmap" is, but my personal experience is quite
> different. Between Fall 1999 and Summer 2007 I had a Dell Dimension
> with a 450 mhz PIII and 128 megs of *SYSTEM RAM* (no not the video card).
> It was actually quite usable to the very end, with Blackbox WM, and
> running a few apps. Meanwhile, KDE (and GNOME for that matter) would
> take forever to load and make the system crawl after that, even with 1
> or 2 apps loaded.
I remember running Slackware on a Pentium 1 100MHz laptop with 128M RAM. The
speed was of course glacial unless I was running only a console with no X.
KDE would load and run, as long as I didn't push it too much. Fluxbox was
more respectable.
In contrast, MSWindows NT4 would load and run better as it was a more light-
footed OS. MSWindows 3.1 was blisteringly fast and MSDOS, well ...
However, life moves on and with the cost of hardware coming down software has
moved towards larger, all bells and whistles, DEs. The change in design
philosophy from KDE3 to KDE4 made things worse for those of us who do not want
everything and the kitchen sink thrown in, but still want to use some KDE
apps.
Thankfully, the move to the KDE meta ebuilds has provided some compensation
against a full blown monolithic KDE.
Personally, I'm grateful that Linux devs continue to develop exceptional
software and so I don't have to use MSWindows. On the other hand I have
always preferred more lightweight WMs to the full enchilada of KDE and Gnome
and wish that KDE devs retained the KDE3 design philosophy, or afforded us a
light(er) option.
PS. I'm not sure that Linus is using Gnome. I recall him bitching that the
Gnome design approach (which unfortunately KDE imitated) was not the right
direction to evolve linux in.
--
Regards,
Mick
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread