[gentoo-user] Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[gentoo-user] Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[Stroller]

Hello,

In the next few weeks I need to move my email server (a very old Gentoo installation) from the closet in my home, into the cloud so that I can go travelling and access my mail from anywhere.

I've never used VM's before, but my understanding is that they look just like a normal machine to the users inside them, and there shouldn't be any problem with me getting used to them. My current mail server is an old 700mhz Pentium III (I think), so performance is unimportant. I guess VM's have some kind of web or VNC console I can log into for the initial install (and if I screw up remote access)?

1. Are these suppositions right?
2. Any recommendations for cheap / reliable hosting providers, please?

I expect to use Gentoo because I've hardly used any other distro for years, and find others less intuitive. 

Thanks,

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[Jigme Datse Yli-RAsku]

Linode just updated their gentoo image, it works out of the box (I failed to get the previous version to work, but if I had been willing to put a week into getting it working, as with most things Gentoo, probably no problem).  Their 1024 (I think) VM should be able to do way more than your in the cupboard machine.  I'd like to know if other people have other solutions. 

Jigme Datse Yli-Rasku

On 2017-03-25 19:57, Stroller wrote:
> Hello,
>
> In the next few weeks I need to move my email server (a very old Gentoo installation) from the closet in my home, into the cloud so that I can go travelling and access my mail from anywhere.
>
> I've never used VM's before, but my understanding is that they look just like a normal machine to the users inside them, and there shouldn't be any problem with me getting used to them. My current mail server is an old 700mhz Pentium III (I think), so performance is unimportant. I guess VM's have some kind of web or VNC console I can log into for the initial install (and if I screw up remote access)?
>
> 1. Are these suppositions right?
> 2. Any recommendations for cheap / reliable hosting providers, please?
>
> I expect to use Gentoo because I've hardly used any other distro for years, and find others less intuitive.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Stroller.
>
>

-- 
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250-505-6117

Jigme Datse Yli-Rasku
PO Box 270
Rossland, BC V0G 1Y0
Canada

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Re: [gentoo-user] Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[Todd Goodman]

* Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> [170325 22:57]:
> Hello,
> 
> In the next few weeks I need to move my email server (a very old Gentoo installation) from the closet in my home, into the cloud so that I can go travelling and access my mail from anywhere.
> 
> I've never used VM's before, but my understanding is that they look just like a normal machine to the users inside them, and there shouldn't be any problem with me getting used to them. My current mail server is an old 700mhz Pentium III (I think), so performance is unimportant. I guess VM's have some kind of web or VNC console I can log into for the initial install (and if I screw up remote access)?
> 
> 1. Are these suppositions right?
> 2. Any recommendations for cheap / reliable hosting providers, please?
> 
> I expect to use Gentoo because I've hardly used any other distro for years, and find others less intuitive. 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Stroller.

Hi Stroller,

I use Linode for my cloud web and email server.

It was very easy to set up and has not had any downtime since it was set
up (a year or so ago.)

I don't use the web gui for access much (generally only for DNS
management which they do well also.)

Though I've used the lish console accessible from the GUI.

I recommend them!

Todd

Re: [gentoo-user] Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[Alex Thorne]

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You could also check out Scaleway, who offer a dedicated ARM server for 3
EUR/month. And DigitalOcean which offers simply priced VMs (starting at
$5/month) targeted at individuals/developers rather than big organisations
(in contrast to AWS). Haven't used Linode so not sure how these compare on
price.

On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 at 13:29 Todd Goodman <tsg@bonedaddy.net> wrote:

> * Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> [170325 22:57]:
> > Hello,
> >
> > In the next few weeks I need to move my email server (a very old Gentoo
> installation) from the closet in my home, into the cloud so that I can go
> travelling and access my mail from anywhere.
> >
> > I've never used VM's before, but my understanding is that they look just
> like a normal machine to the users inside them, and there shouldn't be any
> problem with me getting used to them. My current mail server is an old
> 700mhz Pentium III (I think), so performance is unimportant. I guess VM's
> have some kind of web or VNC console I can log into for the initial install
> (and if I screw up remote access)?
> >
> > 1. Are these suppositions right?
> > 2. Any recommendations for cheap / reliable hosting providers, please?
> >
> > I expect to use Gentoo because I've hardly used any other distro for
> years, and find others less intuitive.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Stroller.
>
> Hi Stroller,
>
> I use Linode for my cloud web and email server.
>
> It was very easy to set up and has not had any downtime since it was set
> up (a year or so ago.)
>
> I don't use the web gui for access much (generally only for DNS
> management which they do well also.)
>
> Though I've used the lish console accessible from the GUI.
>
> I recommend them!
>
> Todd
>
>

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[gentoo-user] Re: Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[Harry Putnam]

Stroller, just a note on my experience this evening.  I liked what I
saw about linode in this thread..  Decided to try them out.

Got started with them... I was working from the command line in my new
gentoo vm provided by linode.  Getting things setup the way I like
them.

In the course of about 2 hrs my connections were dropped at least 15
times and I think probably more.  At some points I have more than one
login going, and I noticed if I left one idle for a few minutes it
would b dropped when I next attemtpted to use it... I mean really a
few minutes like 3 or so.

Sometimes connections would drop while the login instance was
working... for example in the middle of a kernel compile.

I decided I'd seen enough and was not interested in spending time
trying to determine what this was happening... so backed out and asked
for my account to be cancelled and charges to my Credit card canceled.

Remains to be seen how they respond.  I only turned my trouble ticket
7 minutes ago.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[John Runyon]

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 10:08:41PM -0400, Harry Putnam wrote:
> In the course of about 2 hrs my connections were dropped at least 15
> times and I think probably more.  At some points I have more than one
> login going, and I noticed if I left one idle for a few minutes it
> would b dropped when I next attemtpted to use it... I mean really a
> few minutes like 3 or so.
> 
No issues that you've observed with other providers? Which location were
you in? I've used Linode for years and never had issues (other than on
certain connections where I need to enable keepalives due to my end
closing it). But I've mostly stuck to their DFW location.

> Remains to be seen how they respond.  I only turned my trouble ticket
> 7 minutes ago.
> 
Their support is usually pretty quick and pretty customer-service-y. I'd
be surprised if they didn't refund you in full (or at least pro-rated).

[gentoo-user] Re: Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[Harry Putnam]

John Runyon <me@jfr.im> writes:

> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 10:08:41PM -0400, Harry Putnam wrote:
>> In the course of about 2 hrs my connections were dropped at least 15
>> times and I think probably more.  At some points I have more than one
>> login going, and I noticed if I left one idle for a few minutes it
>> would b dropped when I next attemtpted to use it... I mean really a
>> few minutes like 3 or so.
>> 
> No issues that you've observed with other providers? Which location were
> you in? I've used Linode for years and never had issues (other than on
> certain connections where I need to enable keepalives due to my end
> closing it). But I've mostly stuck to their DFW location.

I do have a shell account on a server in Pittsburg area (jtan.com) that
I've had for yrs... Not my own vm.  Just an account on actual
hardware.  I've stayed connected to them for a week at a time a few
times. I do experience the odd drop now and then with them.

I've since closed out the linode account etc, but I was connecting
from the Atlanta GA area if that tells you anthing about where there
operation was.  Come to think of it, I did see something about Fremont
Calif.

It would not suprise me to learn that it was all happening on my end.
I'm on a Comcast Cable modem/router connection.

>
>> Remains to be seen how they respond.  I only turned my trouble ticket
>> 7 minutes ago.
>> 
> Their support is usually pretty quick and pretty customer-service-y. I'd
> be surprised if they didn't refund you in full (or at least pro-rated).

Yes, it is quick and all taken care of shortly after I posted the
note.

So they get an A rating from me for customer support.

But whatever the reason for getting dropped like that... just not worth
the hassle.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[Todd Goodman]

* Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> [170327 22:09]:
> Stroller, just a note on my experience this evening.  I liked what I
> saw about linode in this thread..  Decided to try them out.
> 
> Got started with them... I was working from the command line in my new
> gentoo vm provided by linode.  Getting things setup the way I like
> them.
> 
> In the course of about 2 hrs my connections were dropped at least 15
> times and I think probably more.  At some points I have more than one
> login going, and I noticed if I left one idle for a few minutes it
> would b dropped when I next attemtpted to use it... I mean really a
> few minutes like 3 or so.
> 
> Sometimes connections would drop while the login instance was
> working... for example in the middle of a kernel compile.
> 
> I decided I'd seen enough and was not interested in spending time
> trying to determine what this was happening... so backed out and asked
> for my account to be cancelled and charges to my Credit card canceled.
> 
> Remains to be seen how they respond.  I only turned my trouble ticket
> 7 minutes ago.
> 

Wow.  I've never had that experience and I've been using them for years.

If I allow it I can keep SSH sessions to the instance up for weeks.

I can't comment on customer service as I've never needed to speak to
them.

I'm using the Newark, NJ location.

Todd

Re: [gentoo-user] Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[J. Roeleveld]

On March 26, 2017 4:57:00 AM GMT+02:00, Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
>Hello,
>
>In the next few weeks I need to move my email server (a very old Gentoo
>installation) from the closet in my home, into the cloud so that I can
>go travelling and access my mail from anywhere.
>
>I've never used VM's before, but my understanding is that they look
>just like a normal machine to the users inside them, and there
>shouldn't be any problem with me getting used to them. My current mail
>server is an old 700mhz Pentium III (I think), so performance is
>unimportant. I guess VM's have some kind of web or VNC console I can
>log into for the initial install (and if I screw up remote access)?
>
>1. Are these suppositions right?
>2. Any recommendations for cheap / reliable hosting providers, please?
>
>I expect to use Gentoo because I've hardly used any other distro for
>years, and find others less intuitive. 
>
>Thanks,
>
>Stroller.

I use a Dutch VPS provider:
http://www.vpsdirect.nl

They are quite good and reliable (and not expensive either). Don't officially support Gentoo, but they support uploading your own ISO image to boot from.

--
Joost

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [gentoo-user] Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[J. Roeleveld]

On March 26, 2017 4:57:00 AM GMT+02:00, Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
>Hello,
>
>In the next few weeks I need to move my email server (a very old Gentoo
>installation) from the closet in my home, into the cloud so that I can
>go travelling and access my mail from anywhere.
>
>I've never used VM's before, but my understanding is that they look
>just like a normal machine to the users inside them, and there
>shouldn't be any problem with me getting used to them. My current mail
>server is an old 700mhz Pentium III (I think), so performance is
>unimportant. I guess VM's have some kind of web or VNC console I can
>log into for the initial install (and if I screw up remote access)?
>
>1. Are these suppositions right?
>2. Any recommendations for cheap / reliable hosting providers, please?
>
>I expect to use Gentoo because I've hardly used any other distro for
>years, and find others less intuitive. 
>
>Thanks,
>
>Stroller.

Forgot the other question:
Most use 'NoVNC' for the webinterface.
Gives you direct console access through the web for installing and when SSH doesn't work.

Mine allows me to disable that part of the interface and any changes involve a code send to my mobile. I would assume others can offer a similar level of security.

--
Joost
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [gentoo-user] Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[Alarig Le Lay]

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On dim. 26 mars 03:57:00 2017, Stroller wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> In the next few weeks I need to move my email server (a very old
> Gentoo installation) from the closet in my home, into the cloud so
> that I can go travelling and access my mail from anywhere.
> 
> I've never used VM's before, but my understanding is that they look
> just like a normal machine to the users inside them, and there
> shouldn't be any problem with me getting used to them. My current mail
> server is an old 700mhz Pentium III (I think), so performance is
> unimportant. I guess VM's have some kind of web or VNC console I can
> log into for the initial install (and if I screw up remote access)?
> 
> 1. Are these suppositions right?
> 2. Any recommendations for cheap / reliable hosting providers, please?
> 
> I expect to use Gentoo because I've hardly used any other distro for
> years, and find others less intuitive. 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Stroller.

Hi,

1. Yes, from the user point of view, it’s very similar to a physical
machine. You just have to use virtual drivers instead of intel/amd ones.

2. What is cheap for you? I’m part of a non for profit association that
rent VMs at 5 € per month for 32G of hard drive, one vCPU and 512M of
RAM. https://grifon.fr/services.html

-- 
alarig

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Re: [gentoo-user] Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[Stroller]

> On 28 Mar 2017, at 13:41, Alarig Le Lay <alarig@swordarmor.fr> wrote:
> 
> 2. What is cheap for you? I’m part of a non for profit association that
> rent VMs at 5 € per month for 32G of hard drive, one vCPU and 512M of
> RAM. https://grifon.fr/services.html

Many thanks for all the replies to this thread - not only Alarig's, but also to Harry and Joost.

It'll be a couple of weeks before I need to get started so I'm glad to read this further discussion. 

€5 a month seems an ideal price, but I can probably afford a little more.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[Arthur Țițeică]

În 29 martie 2017 07:33:54 EEST, Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> a scris:
>
>> On 28 Mar 2017, at 13:41, Alarig Le Lay <alarig@swordarmor.fr> wrote:
>> 
>> 2. What is cheap for you? I’m part of a non for profit association
>that
>> rent VMs at 5 € per month for 32G of hard drive, one vCPU and 512M of
>> RAM. https://grifon.fr/services.html
>
>Many thanks for all the replies to this thread - not only Alarig's, but
>also to Harry and Joost.
>
>It'll be a couple of weeks before I need to get started so I'm glad to
>read this further discussion. 
>
>€5 a month seems an ideal price, but I can probably afford a little
>more.
>

Dedibox/Online has real hardware (dedicated servers) for 15 or 30€ on the personal range. The more expensive one has 2 SSDs for software raid 6 cores Xeon and 32gb memory.

Re: [gentoo-user] Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[Stroller]

> On 29 Mar 2017, at 06:43, Arthur Țițeică <arthur@cloud.titeica.ro> wrote:
>> 
>> €5 a month seems an ideal price, but I can probably afford a little
>> more.
> 
> Dedibox/Online has real hardware (dedicated servers) for 15 or 30€ on the personal range. The more expensive one has 2 SSDs for software raid 6 cores Xeon and 32gb memory.

Not sure why I'd need a dedicated hardware.

I think I'd probably rather have two VMs at €5 or €10 each a month, than one high-powered machine at the same price.

It would be handy to have another shell I can run back up to, run unattended downloads on and so forth when I'm on a flakey connection (and then pop the download into my Google Drive).

PS: can anyone explain how the Amazon web services work, please? I have the impression they're charged by usage and can be very cheap. But it's not clear to me if you can use AWS just like a regular Linux cloud server.

Re: [gentoo-user] Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[Stroller]

> On 26 Mar 2017, at 03:57, Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> In the next few weeks I need to move my email server (a very old Gentoo installation) from the closet in my home, into the cloud so that I can go travelling and access my mail from anywhere.

A few months ago I asked for hosting recommendations, and was surprised not to receive any mention of Amazon's cloud services.

I thought reason might be that Amazon's cloud servers are different from a regular VM, but today saw someone on the Postfix list state that they're running it on an AWS instance.

Has anyone tried running Gentoo on AWS or did this go unmentioned because it's impossible?

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[Todd Goodman]

On 8/16/2017 6:00 PM, Stroller wrote:
>> On 26 Mar 2017, at 03:57, Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> In the next few weeks I need to move my email server (a very old Gentoo installation) from the closet in my home, into the cloud so that I can go travelling and access my mail from anywhere.
> A few months ago I asked for hosting recommendations, and was surprised not to receive any mention of Amazon's cloud services.
>
> I thought reason might be that Amazon's cloud servers are different from a regular VM, but today saw someone on the Postfix list state that they're running it on an AWS instance.
>
> Has anyone tried running Gentoo on AWS or did this go unmentioned because it's impossible?
>
> Stroller.
>
>

I use AWS instances extensively at work and they have been incredibly 
reliable and after initially learning the tools they're very convenient 
to manage (IMNHO of course.)

I've used the AWS free tier EC2 to set up a Gentoo instance using a 
public AMI to base it on.  It worked OK and I'm certain I could have 
figured out how to set it up from scratch too.

The free tier is a micro instance which may or may not suit your 
purposes.  It's probably fine for a mail server and low traffic web server.

If you do set up a mail server in AWS you need to contact support to get 
them to remove throttling they automatically have in place for mail 
(port 25.)  It wasn't a hassle to do, I just asked and they quickly 
removed the throttling.

However, I decided to go with a Linode instance instead, mostly due to 
pricing.

Once I wanted multiple CPU cores and more memory I couldn't justify the 
AWS cost to myself for a personal machine.

Linode has been incredibly reliable for me as well and I run Gentoo 
there also.

Todd

Re: [gentoo-user] Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[Stroller]

> On 17 Aug 2017, at 12:40, Todd Goodman <tsg@bonedaddy.net> wrote:
> 
> I use AWS instances extensively at work and they have been incredibly reliable and after initially learning the tools they're very convenient to manage (IMNHO of course.)
> 
> I've used the AWS free tier EC2 to set up a Gentoo instance using a public AMI to base it on.  It worked OK and I'm certain I could have figured out how to set it up from scratch too.
> 
> The free tier is a micro instance which may or may not suit your purposes.  It's probably fine for a mail server and low traffic web server.

Many thanks, that's very helpful. 

So AWS instances work like any other VM? I can ssh into them, install packages on them and so on?

You mentioned the AWS free tier - if I use one of those, can I be sure that it won't exceed the usage limits without billing me?

Linode were mentioned by a couple of people in the previous thread, too. They seem like the logical choice, but if I can use AWS for free, that would be better. ;)

Stroller.

[gentoo-user] Re: Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2017-08-17 23:05, Stroller wrote:

> You mentioned the AWS free tier - if I use one of those, can I be sure
> that it won't exceed the usage limits without billing me?
> 
> Linode were mentioned by a couple of people in the previous thread,
> too. They seem like the logical choice, but if I can use AWS for free,
> that would be better. ;)

I am one of the happy linode users.

My problem with AWS is that you need to have an Amazon account (even for the
free tier AFAIK), with all the misfeatures that come with that (such as
keeping a credit card on file with them).

-- 
Please don't Cc: me privately on mailing lists and Usenet,
if you also post the followup to the list or newsgroup.
Do obvious transformation on domain to reply privately _only_ on Usenet.

Re: [gentoo-user] Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[Todd Goodman]

On 8/17/2017 6:05 PM, Stroller wrote:
>> On 17 Aug 2017, at 12:40, Todd Goodman <tsg@bonedaddy.net> wrote:
>>
>> I use AWS instances extensively at work and they have been incredibly reliable and after initially learning the tools they're very convenient to manage (IMNHO of course.)
>>
>> I've used the AWS free tier EC2 to set up a Gentoo instance using a public AMI to base it on.  It worked OK and I'm certain I could have figured out how to set it up from scratch too.
>>
>> The free tier is a micro instance which may or may not suit your purposes.  It's probably fine for a mail server and low traffic web server.
> Many thanks, that's very helpful.
>
> So AWS instances work like any other VM? I can ssh into them, install packages on them and so on?
>
> You mentioned the AWS free tier - if I use one of those, can I be sure that it won't exceed the usage limits without billing me?
>
> Linode were mentioned by a couple of people in the previous thread, too. They seem like the logical choice, but if I can use AWS for free, that would be better. ;)
>
> Stroller.
>
>

Yes, you can ssh in to them as usual (assuming you have allowed it in 
your security group/firewall of course.)

And install packages as well.  They're really just regular VM guests 
once so whatever you're used to with Gentoo (or other OS) is what you'll 
mostly get .

You'll need to look into the free tier to be sure.  You can always set 
alerts to email you if you're getting close to getting charged.

I'm not sure how much you can run with the free tier.  I wasn't really 
interested (and obviously, at work it's not applicable.)  I'm probably 
using the wrong terminology calling it a "tier."  I think if you go over 
for some reason then it's just additional charges on top, not a bump 
into a more expensive "tier" really.

Also, the micro instances (which is all I could run without charge) have 
cpu throttled (and I believe the network as well, but certainly 
doublecheck that.)

Todd

Re: [gentoo-user] Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[Stroller]

> On 18 Aug 2017, at 13:28, Todd Goodman <tsg@bonedaddy.net> wrote:
> 
>> Many thanks, that's very helpful.
>> 
>> So AWS instances work like any other VM? I can ssh into them, install packages on them and so on?
>> … 
> 
> Yes, you can ssh in to them as usual (assuming you have allowed it in your security group/firewall of course.)
> 
> And install packages as well.  They're really just regular VM guests once so whatever you're used to with Gentoo (or other OS) is what you'll mostly get .
> 
> You'll need to look into the free tier to be sure.  You can always set alerts to email you if you're getting close to getting charged.

Thanks for your help.

Looks like the free tier is a bit skinny on storage - only 5GB.

Linode's pricing pitch, "simple pricing, no calculator needed", puts Amazon's rates to shame.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Online hosting recommendation - VMs?

[Mick]

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On Saturday, 19 August 2017 03:13:05 BST Stroller wrote:
> > On 18 Aug 2017, at 13:28, Todd Goodman <tsg@bonedaddy.net> wrote:

> > You'll need to look into the free tier to be sure.  You can always set
> > alerts to email you if you're getting close to getting charged.
> Thanks for your help.
> 
> Looks like the free tier is a bit skinny on storage - only 5GB.
> 
> Linode's pricing pitch, "simple pricing, no calculator needed", puts
> Amazon's rates to shame.
> 
> Stroller.

I'm going back a couple of years when I used to calculate the cost of AWS for 
work purposes.  The break even time of the cheapest AWS combo Vs self-hosting 
of a LAMP was around 2.4 years.  Now, the self-hosting was a really old and 
underutilised leased corporate data centre at rather expensive prices.  In 
most cases the report that went back to the Board said:  re-negotiate and 
extend the lease of the corporate data centre for software or storage you 
intend running in the long run.  If you want to test some web app, then by all 
means use AWS, *until* you have negotiated a better self-hosting deal.  BTW, 
the elastic AWS deal was almost always prohibitively expensive.  The above 
calculations refer to prepaying AWS for the utilisation required plus some 
margin to achieve the cheapest possible deal.  I appreciate that multi-year 
corporate deals enjoy better discounts by suppliers than you or I walking 
through the door, so YMMV.

For my current low demand needs, if I could have fibre to the premises where I 
live, I would consider hosting at home and would look for a friend to provide 
a hot standby and off premises back up.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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