[gentoo-user] ridiculously wide handbook pages

[gentoo-user] ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Grant Edwards]

I've noticed recently that the Gentoo handbook web pages are
ridiculously wide. (It seems to me that they didn't used to be, but I
wouldn't swear to that). 

For example, look at this page:

  http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2

The normal text paragraphs have lines that average over 160 characters
per line. The generally accepted guideline for line length in order to
maintain good readability is 40-80.  The above page's lines are 2-4
times as long as recommended for good readability, and they are in
fact so long that I can't make my browser wide enough to see an entire
line.

Line lengths that long make the pages hard to read even if you _can_
make your browser wide enough to show an entire line.

The regular handbook is a little better:

  http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1

That has lines that average about 140 characters.  That's still much
longer than what I'd consider good practice.

Do the extremely long lines in the handbook web pages bother anybody
else?

I can understand that things like example code blocks or sample
command input/output blocks might need to be wide enough to require
horizontal scrolling of a browser window, but normal text paragraphs
with 160 characters per line?

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Is this going to
                                  at               involve RAW human ecstasy?
                              gmail.com            

Re: [gentoo-user] ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Thursday 30 September 2010, Grant Edwards wrote:


> 
> That has lines that average about 140 characters.  That's still much
> longer than what I'd consider good practice.

I am counting 105.

> 
> Do the extremely long lines in the handbook web pages bother anybody
> else?

not me. Not with konqueror.

[gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-09-30, Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday 30 September 2010, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>
>> 
>> That has lines that average about 140 characters.  That's still much
>> longer than what I'd consider good practice.
>
> I am counting 105.

>> Do the extremely long lines in the handbook web pages bother anybody
>> else?
>
> not me. Not with konqueror.

I'm using firefox, and it obviously varies somewhat depending on the
exact fonts used and the screen resolution.  That said, the vast
majority of sites sites don't seem to have this problem.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Finally, Zippy
                                  at               drives his 1958 RAMBLER
                              gmail.com            METROPOLITAN into the
                                                   faculty dining room.

Re: [gentoo-user] ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Darren Kirby]

On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Grant Edwards
<grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I can understand that things like example code blocks or sample
> command input/output blocks might need to be wide enough to require
> horizontal scrolling of a browser window, but normal text paragraphs
> with 160 characters per line?

I'm not seeing a problem here. Sure, the lines are long but my screen
is large and my resolution is high. A quick play with firefox and konq
shows that the text reformats itself quite elegantly when you resize
your browser window to say, 2/3 of screen width. I think that's a
better solution than imposing some arbitrary line length on everyone
no matter their screen size and resolution.

D
--
Support the mob or mysteriously disappear...
I'm on flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/badcomputer/

[gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-09-30, Darren Kirby <bulliver@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Grant Edwards
><grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I can understand that things like example code blocks or sample
>> command input/output blocks might need to be wide enough to require
>> horizontal scrolling of a browser window, but normal text paragraphs
>> with 160 characters per line?
>
> I'm not seeing a problem here. Sure, the lines are long but my screen
> is large and my resolution is high. A quick play with firefox and konq
> shows that the text reformats itself quite elegantly when you resize
> your browser window to say, 2/3 of screen width.

I'm using firefox, and the text doesn't reformat for me.  I just end
up with a change in the size of the horizontal scrollbar.  Are you
sure you're looking at the same pages I was talking about?

  http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1
  http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2  

> I think that's a better solution than imposing some arbitrary line
> length on everyone no matter their screen size and resolution.

Yes, that would be fine if, in fact, it worked.  But it doesn't.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Wow!  Look!!  A stray
                                  at               meatball!!  Let's interview
                              gmail.com            it!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Darren Kirby]

On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 12:18 PM, Grant Edwards
<grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I'm using firefox, and the text doesn't reformat for me.  I just end
> up with a change in the size of the horizontal scrollbar.  Are you
> sure you're looking at the same pages I was talking about?
>
>  http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1
>  http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2
>

We must have some different settings going on somewhere Grant, I
checked both pages with both firefox and konq and they reformat just
fine for me.

Do you have some custom css stylesheets that override the default or something?

-D
--
Support the mob or mysteriously disappear...
I'm on flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/badcomputer/

[gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-09-30, Darren Kirby <bulliver@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 12:18 PM, Grant Edwards
><grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm using firefox, and the text doesn't reformat for me. ?I just end
>> up with a change in the size of the horizontal scrollbar. ?Are you
>> sure you're looking at the same pages I was talking about?
>>
>> ?http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1
>> ?http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2
>>
>
> We must have some different settings going on somewhere Grant, I
> checked both pages with both firefox and konq and they reformat just
> fine for me.
>
> Do you have some custom css stylesheets that override the default or
> something?

Nope.  Not that I know of.  I presume I'd have to do something I'd
likely remember?

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! INSIDE, I have the
                                  at               same personality disorder
                              gmail.com            as LUCY RICARDO!!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Darren Kirby]

On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Grant Edwards
<grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Do you have some custom css stylesheets that override the default or
>> something?
>
> Nope.  Not that I know of.  I presume I'd have to do something I'd
> likely remember?
>

Yes, you would definitely remember if you did it...

Anyway, I think perhaps we must be running considerably different
resolutions and text sizes...playing around here a bit more and you
are correct, the text will only reformat to the width of the longest
code block before the horizontal scroll appears. On the "Creating a
Cross-Compiler" page you linked to the longest code block is still
only half the width of my screen, so it's not really a problem on my
system.

D
--
Support the mob or mysteriously disappear...
I'm on flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/badcomputer/

[gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-09-30, Darren Kirby <bulliver@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Grant Edwards
><grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Do you have some custom css stylesheets that override the default or
>>> something?
>>
>> Nope. Not that I know of. I presume I'd have to do something I'd
>> likely remember
>
> Yes, you would definitely remember if you did it...
>
> Anyway, I think perhaps we must be running considerably different
> resolutions and text sizes...

I'm pretty sure you're right. I'm apparently seeing a significantly
larger "fixed" font than you are (as a percentage of screen width).
For whatever reason, a lot of sites like to use a low-contrast color
scheme for things like listing blocks.  For example, Gentoos uses
medium-blue on light-blue (violet?).  I find that hard to read when
the font gets too small.

> playing around here a bit more and you are correct, the text will
> only reformat to the width of the longest code block before the
> horizontal scroll appears. On the "Creating a Cross-Compiler" page
> you linked to the longest code block is still only half the width of
> my screen, so it's not really a problem on my system.

I could reduce the minimum size of my "fixed" font, but that only
helps until the next web page comes along with an even wider code
block.

The basic problem is that the width of the normal text paragraphs is
dependent on the width of the code blocks.  IMO, that's not right[1],
but whether or not it can be fixed depends somewhat on the document
formatting system in use.

[1] As somebody who's been using TeX/LaTeX for 25 years, I'm probably
    inordinately picky about typesetting issues.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I have a TINY BOWL in
                                  at               my HEAD
                              gmail.com            

[gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Jörg Schaible]

Hi Edward,

Grant Edwards wrote:

> On 2010-09-30, Darren Kirby <bulliver@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Grant Edwards
>><grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Do you have some custom css stylesheets that override the default or
>>>> something?
>>>
>>> Nope. Not that I know of. I presume I'd have to do something I'd
>>> likely remember
>>
>> Yes, you would definitely remember if you did it...
>>
>> Anyway, I think perhaps we must be running considerably different
>> resolutions and text sizes...
> 
> I'm pretty sure you're right. I'm apparently seeing a significantly
> larger "fixed" font than you are (as a percentage of screen width).
> For whatever reason, a lot of sites like to use a low-contrast color
> scheme for things like listing blocks.  For example, Gentoos uses
> medium-blue on light-blue (violet?).  I find that hard to read when
> the font gets too small.
> 
>> playing around here a bit more and you are correct, the text will
>> only reformat to the width of the longest code block before the
>> horizontal scroll appears. On the "Creating a Cross-Compiler" page
>> you linked to the longest code block is still only half the width of
>> my screen, so it's not really a problem on my system.
> 
> I could reduce the minimum size of my "fixed" font, but that only
> helps until the next web page comes along with an even wider code
> block.

Try a different fixed font. At the end I've chosen "Monotype", because it 
seems to have the narrowest well-readable letters.

> The basic problem is that the width of the normal text paragraphs is
> dependent on the width of the code blocks.  IMO, that's not right[1],
> but whether or not it can be fixed depends somewhat on the document
> formatting system in use.
> 
> [1] As somebody who's been using TeX/LaTeX for 25 years, I'm probably
>     inordinately picky about typesetting issues.

- Jörg 

[gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-09-30, J??rg Schaible <joerg.schaible@gmx.de> wrote:

>> I could reduce the minimum size of my "fixed" font, but that only
>> helps until the next web page comes along with an even wider code
>> block.
>
> Try a different fixed font. At the end I've chosen "Monotype",
> because it seems to have the narrowest well-readable letters.

That's still just a kludge/bandage for a broken document.

I've got no complaint about the width of the listing blocks.

The problem is that the wrap width of normal text paragraphs shouldn't
be determined by the width of listing blocks.  It should be determined
by the width of the browser window.

I'd also set a maximum text width to keep paragraphs somewhat readable
when you widen the window to see all of a really wide listing block. 
But, I'm willing to admit that's a more of a style/preference
question.

Here's an example of how to do it right (both decoupled text/listing
widths and a max-width for text):

  http://www.panix.com/~grante/wrapdemo.html

I've filed a bug, so anybody with an opinion can weigh in there as
well.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Everybody gets free
                                  at               BORSCHT!
                              gmail.com            

[gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-09-30, J??rg Schaible <joerg.schaible@gmx.de> wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:

>>> playing around here a bit more and you are correct, the text will
>>> only reformat to the width of the longest code block before the
>>> horizontal scroll appears. On the "Creating a Cross-Compiler" page
>>> you linked to the longest code block is still only half the width of
>>> my screen, so it's not really a problem on my system.
>> 
>> I could reduce the minimum size of my "fixed" font, but that only
>> helps until the next web page comes along with an even wider code
>> block.
>
> Try a different fixed font. At the end I've chosen "Monotype", because it 
> seems to have the narrowest well-readable letters.

I could do that, but IMO that's just a kludge for a broken document.

And it only works until the next web page comes along with even wider
listing blocks.

The real problem is that text and listing widths are linked.  They
shouldn't be.

I've filed a bug report:

 http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=339290

So feel free to weigh in there.

That bug report contains a link to a page that shows how I think it
should work:

  http://www.panix.com/~grante/wrapdemo.html

The text paragraphs wrap to fit within the browser width regardless of
the width of the listing blocks.

I've also set a max width on the paragraphs so that they remain
readable even when you widen the browser window to see more of the
wide listing blocks.  [I admit the max-width bit is more of a
style-preferance thing.]
 
-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! My mind is making
                                  at               ashtrays in Dayton ...
                              gmail.com            

[gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-09-30, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2010-09-30, Darren Kirby <bulliver@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Grant Edwards
>><grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I can understand that things like example code blocks or sample
>>> command input/output blocks might need to be wide enough to require
>>> horizontal scrolling of a browser window, but normal text paragraphs
>>> with 160 characters per line?
>>
>> I'm not seeing a problem here. Sure, the lines are long but my screen
>> is large and my resolution is high. A quick play with firefox and konq
>> shows that the text reformats itself quite elegantly when you resize
>> your browser window to say, 2/3 of screen width.
>
> I'm using firefox, and the text doesn't reformat for me.  I just end
> up with a change in the size of the horizontal scrollbar.  Are you
> sure you're looking at the same pages I was talking about?
>
>   http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1
>   http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2  

OK, I think the problem is caused by "literal" blocks (the ones
containing command-line examples with the light-blue background where
nothing ever wraps).  The _minimum_ line-wrap length for normal text
paragraphs is determined by the _maximum_ line length in a literal
block. Resizing the browser window horizontally only reformats text
_if_ the window is wider than the longest literal block line.  For
many of the pages that requires more screen width than I, for one,
have.

IOW, for any pages with long command line examples (or program output
examples), you end up with very unweildy text paragraphs.

I'm not sure what formatting system the manual pages use (to me the
pages look way too clean, consistent, and neat to be hand-coded).  
Using asciidoc, for example, you avoid this problem by specifying a
maxmimum width for normal text blocks so that they won't end up being
arbitrarily long depending on what command line examples you happen to
have in the document.  I find 40em to be a nice max width:

  asciidoc -a data-uri -a toc -a max-width=40em <input-file>

>> I think that's a better solution than imposing some arbitrary line
>> length on everyone no matter their screen size and resolution.

No, I wouldn't want to impose an arbitrary line lenth on everybody,
but that's exactly what we have now.  The arbitrary line length that's
imposed is (length >= max(lengths-of-lines-in-literal-blocks)).

For pages without any wide literal blocks, it's not an issue, and the
normal paragaphs reflow as they should.  For most of the manual pages
that I look at, it is an issue.

I'd prefer to have the line lengths determined by the browser window,
and that's not what we have now for much of the manual.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Edwin Meese made me
                                  at               wear CORDOVANS!!
                              gmail.com            

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Dale]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2010-09-30, Darren Kirby<bulliver@gmail.com>  wrote:
>    
>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Grant Edwards
>> <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>      
>>> I can understand that things like example code blocks or sample
>>> command input/output blocks might need to be wide enough to require
>>> horizontal scrolling of a browser window, but normal text paragraphs
>>> with 160 characters per line?
>>>        
>> I'm not seeing a problem here. Sure, the lines are long but my screen
>> is large and my resolution is high. A quick play with firefox and konq
>> shows that the text reformats itself quite elegantly when you resize
>> your browser window to say, 2/3 of screen width.
>>      
> I'm using firefox, and the text doesn't reformat for me.  I just end
> up with a change in the size of the horizontal scrollbar.  Are you
> sure you're looking at the same pages I was talking about?
>
>    http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1
>    

The link above works fine although a bit wide.  No horizontal scrollbar.

>    http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2
>    

This one has a horizontal scrollbar but only adjust about a half inch or 
so.   It almost fits.


>    
>> I think that's a better solution than imposing some arbitrary line
>> length on everyone no matter their screen size and resolution.
>>      
> Yes, that would be fine if, in fact, it worked.  But it doesn't.
>
>    

What I notice is this, if I narrow Seamonkey, the horizontal scroll bar 
appears even when ti should be able to shorten the line lengths and fit 
everything on the page.   I don't claim to know much about web design so 
I don't know if this is the code on the page or the way Seamonkey is 
choosing to display it.

Dale

:-)  :-)

[gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-09-30, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2010-09-30, Darren Kirby<bulliver@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>    
>>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Grant Edwards
>>> <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>> I can understand that things like example code blocks or sample
>>>> command input/output blocks might need to be wide enough to require
>>>> horizontal scrolling of a browser window, but normal text paragraphs
>>>> with 160 characters per line?
>>>>        
>>> I'm not seeing a problem here. Sure, the lines are long but my screen
>>> is large and my resolution is high. A quick play with firefox and konq
>>> shows that the text reformats itself quite elegantly when you resize
>>> your browser window to say, 2/3 of screen width.
>>>      
>> I'm using firefox, and the text doesn't reformat for me.  I just end
>> up with a change in the size of the horizontal scrollbar.  Are you
>> sure you're looking at the same pages I was talking about?
>>
>>    http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1
>>    
>
> The link above works fine although a bit wide.  No horizontal scrollbar.

And what happens when you narrow the window to say 2/3 of that width? 
Do the text paragrphs reformat to the new width, or do you just end up
with a scrollbar and paragraphs that you have to scroll right to read?

>>    http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2
>>    
>
> This one has a horizontal scrollbar but only adjust about a half inch or 
> so.   It almost fits.

Are the text paragraphs re-wrapped as you narrow the window?

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! My BIOLOGICAL ALARM
                                  at               CLOCK just went off ... It
                              gmail.com            has noiseless DOZE FUNCTION
                                                   and full kitchen!!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Dale]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2010-09-30, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
>    
>> Grant Edwards wrote:
>>      
>>> On 2010-09-30, Darren Kirby<bulliver@gmail.com>   wrote:
>>>
>>>        
>>>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Grant Edwards
>>>> <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com>   wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          
>>>>> I can understand that things like example code blocks or sample
>>>>> command input/output blocks might need to be wide enough to require
>>>>> horizontal scrolling of a browser window, but normal text paragraphs
>>>>> with 160 characters per line?
>>>>>
>>>>>            
>>>> I'm not seeing a problem here. Sure, the lines are long but my screen
>>>> is large and my resolution is high. A quick play with firefox and konq
>>>> shows that the text reformats itself quite elegantly when you resize
>>>> your browser window to say, 2/3 of screen width.
>>>>
>>>>          
>>> I'm using firefox, and the text doesn't reformat for me.  I just end
>>> up with a change in the size of the horizontal scrollbar.  Are you
>>> sure you're looking at the same pages I was talking about?
>>>
>>>     http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1
>>>
>>>        
>> The link above works fine although a bit wide.  No horizontal scrollbar.
>>      
> And what happens when you narrow the window to say 2/3 of that width?
> Do the text paragrphs reformat to the new width, or do you just end up
> with a scrollbar and paragraphs that you have to scroll right to read?
>
>    

If I narrow it a good bit, it does give me a scrollbar.  The line 
lengths look OK tho.  At least for this page.  The line lengths could be 
shorter and still be good to tho.


>>>     http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2
>>>
>>>        
>> This one has a horizontal scrollbar but only adjust about a half inch or
>> so.   It almost fits.
>>      
> Are the text paragraphs re-wrapped as you narrow the window?
>
>    

That one has a scrollbar no matter what.  It appears that section "Code 
Listing 2.4: Using SH4 cross-compiler" is making it really long.  It has 
a line in that box that is pretty long.  It's the longest line I saw in 
the whole page.

So, it appears as someone else posted that the pretty blue boxes set the 
minimum width.  Whatever is the longest line sets the width.  How would 
one go about changing that I wonder?  I know when someone posts a long 
command on this mailing list, it makes it hard to understand when 
Seamonkey shops it up into two lines.  Most people are good enough to 
post that the command has to be all on one line tho.  It appears that a 
email problem is also a website problem too.  When to wrap a line and 
when not to?

Dale

:-)  :-)

[gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-09-30, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>>>>     http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2
>>>>
>>>>        
>>> This one has a horizontal scrollbar but only adjust about a half inch or
>>> so.   It almost fits.
>>>      
>> Are the text paragraphs re-wrapped as you narrow the window?
>
> That one has a scrollbar no matter what.  It appears that section "Code 
> Listing 2.4: Using SH4 cross-compiler" is making it really long.  It has 
> a line in that box that is pretty long.  It's the longest line I saw in 
> the whole page.
>
> So, it appears as someone else posted that the pretty blue boxes set
> the minimum width.

I think that's definitely the issue.

> Whatever is the longest line sets the width.  How would one go about
> changing that I wonder?

I think it can probably be set in the CSS stylesheet, but I'm pretty
fuzzy when it comes to CSS details.

I do know that the web pages I generate with asciidoc don't have this
problem.  In general, the width of the text paragraphs is determined
by the browser width, but listing blocks don't get wrapped and you may
have to scroll over to see the ends of the really wide ones.  I
usually set a max text width as well, so that if you do widen your
browser window to see the really wide listing blocks, you still end up
with text columns that max out at a reasonable width.  Setting a
max-width for text is probably more a matter of taste/style, but I
don't think that anybody can argue that having the minium text width
determined by the maximum listing width is right.

> I know when someone posts a long command on this mailing list, it
> makes it hard to understand when Seamonkey shops it up into two
> lines.

We definitely don't want to wrap things like command lines, config
file listings, code listings, and program input/output.  That's why
you (directly or indirectly) assign them a different CSS style or
object type -- so that you can do things like wrap normal text and not
listings or examples.

> Most people are good enough to post that the command has to be all on
> one line tho.  It appears that a email problem is also a website
> problem too.  When to wrap a line and when not to?

I don't think listings/code/shell-examples should not be wrapped, and
AFAIK, nobody's arguing that they should be.

However, I do assert that normal text paragraphs should be wrapped to
fit within the browser window.

In text-only e-mail messages, there's no way to tell the difference
between the two.

Whatever's generating the HTML/CSS for the Gentoo manual web pages
does know the difference, and should be able to do The Right
Thing(tm). The manual HTML is definitely machine-generated, but I
can't tell you by what at this point, so I can't offer a specific
fix...

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Can you MAIL a BEAN
                                  at               CAKE?
                              gmail.com            

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Dale]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> << SNIP >>
> Whatever's generating the HTML/CSS for the Gentoo manual web pages
> does know the difference, and should be able to do The Right
> Thing(tm). The manual HTML is definitely machine-generated, but I
> can't tell you by what at this point, so I can't offer a specific
> fix...
>
>    

Maybe what needs to happen is this.  Find the person that is "in the 
know" on the Gentoo docs, give them a OLD 12" monitor to help do the 
pages with.  That way, they will certainly be able to see the issue and 
maybe know how to make it work better.  They can then also test it on 
their normal monitor and if it is readable on both, it should work for 
anyone pretty much regardless of what monitor size and resolution they use.

Not sure that is doable either tho.

Dale

:-)  :-)

[gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-09-30, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>> << SNIP >>
>> Whatever's generating the HTML/CSS for the Gentoo manual web pages
>> does know the difference, and should be able to do The Right
>> Thing(tm). The manual HTML is definitely machine-generated, but I
>> can't tell you by what at this point, so I can't offer a specific
>> fix...
>>
>>    
>
> Maybe what needs to happen is this.  Find the person that is "in the 
> know" on the Gentoo docs, give them a OLD 12" monitor to help do the 
> pages with.

and some OLD eyes with which to look at the monitor -- that way they
set their browser sup with larger fonts for the low-contrast
blue-on-blue blocks. :)

What really needs to happen is for me to file a bug report against the
documentation (assuming this hasn't already been filed as a bug and
been resolved as "won't fix").  I'll put that on my list of things to
do...

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! YOU PICKED KARL
                                  at               MALDEN'S NOSE!!
                              gmail.com            

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Dale]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2010-09-30, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
>    
>> Grant Edwards wrote:
>>      
>>> <<  SNIP>>
>>> Whatever's generating the HTML/CSS for the Gentoo manual web pages
>>> does know the difference, and should be able to do The Right
>>> Thing(tm). The manual HTML is definitely machine-generated, but I
>>> can't tell you by what at this point, so I can't offer a specific
>>> fix...
>>>
>>>
>>>        
>> Maybe what needs to happen is this.  Find the person that is "in the
>> know" on the Gentoo docs, give them a OLD 12" monitor to help do the
>> pages with.
>>      
> and some OLD eyes with which to look at the monitor -- that way they
> set their browser sup with larger fonts for the low-contrast
> blue-on-blue blocks. :)
>
> What really needs to happen is for me to file a bug report against the
> documentation (assuming this hasn't already been filed as a bug and
> been resolved as "won't fix").  I'll put that on my list of things to
> do...
>
>    

Your eyes as bad as mine?  My glasses are 3 years old and I really need 
some new ones.

One good thing tho, at least they didn't decide to put dark blue text 
with a black background.  There are sites that do that.  I guess they 
want the old farts like us to go away. lol  It generally works too.

I wouldn't expect a quick fix but maybe it will be something that they 
can work on over time.  I don't think there is a lot of people that do 
doc work.  It does need to be brought to their attention tho.  If they 
don't know it is a problem for some of us, they certainly won't work on 
it then.

Post a link when you file it.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Al]

Hi Grant,

I can only confirm this. Long lines are difficult to focus, so they
are tiresome to read.

For this reason typical newspapers have small columns. Personally I
even prefer to read ebooks on the very small display of a mobile
phone.

Al

[gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-09-30, Al <oss.elmar@googlemail.com> wrote:

> I can only confirm this. Long lines are difficult to focus, so they
> are tiresome to read.

And when you have to scroll the window back-and-forth for each line,
it makes you want to scream.

> For this reason typical newspapers have small columns. Personally I
> even prefer to read ebooks on the very small display of a mobile
> phone.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! How do I get HOME?
                                  at               
                              gmail.com            

[gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 09/30/2010 08:13 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
> I've noticed recently that the Gentoo handbook web pages are
> ridiculously wide. (It seems to me that they didn't used to be, but I
> wouldn't swear to that).
>
> For example, look at this page:
>
>    http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2
>
> The normal text paragraphs have lines that average over 160 characters
> per line. The generally accepted guideline for line length in order to
> maintain good readability is 40-80.  The above page's lines are 2-4
> times as long as recommended for good readability, and they are in
> fact so long that I can't make my browser wide enough to see an entire
> line.

Same problem here.  The text is not able to reformat below a certain 
point, and that point is still too wide.  Reading such wide lines of 
text is not very comfortable.

Re: [gentoo-user] ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Mark Knecht]

On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Grant Edwards
<grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've noticed recently that the Gentoo handbook web pages are
> ridiculously wide. (It seems to me that they didn't used to be, but I
> wouldn't swear to that).
>
> For example, look at this page:
>
>  http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2
>

I'll admit that a couple of times I've found this frustrating but not
enough that I'd ask anyone to change things.

I think the frustration, candidly, is that the web page programming
doesn't allow me to narrow the page as much as I might like and still
read the text. Sometimes I just want the browser to cover 1/2 the
screen, so that might be 600 pixels or so. Or maybe this is a Firefox
thing, not sure.

Anyway, I understand your point.

- Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Darren Kirby]

On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Grant Edwards
> <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I've noticed recently that the Gentoo handbook web pages are
>> ridiculously wide. (It seems to me that they didn't used to be, but I
>> wouldn't swear to that).
>>
>> For example, look at this page:
>>
>>  http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2
>>
>
> I'll admit that a couple of times I've found this frustrating but not
> enough that I'd ask anyone to change things.
>
> I think the frustration, candidly, is that the web page programming
> doesn't allow me to narrow the page as much as I might like and still
> read the text. Sometimes I just want the browser to cover 1/2 the
> screen, so that might be 600 pixels or so. Or maybe this is a Firefox
> thing, not sure.
>
> Anyway, I understand your point.
>
> - Mark
>
>

OK, well this is getting weird because that is exactly the behavior I
am seeing from both firefox and konqueror...it would appear I'm the
only one?

To be absolutely clear: When I resize the windows the text reformats
itself on the fly from wide short paragraphs to narrow long
paragraphs. No horizontal scroll bar which I agree is beyond annoying.
This is the behavior I see from pretty much all well-designed web
pages, and I rather thought it was default.

D
--
Support the mob or mysteriously disappear...
I'm on flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/badcomputer/

[gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-09-30, Darren Kirby <bulliver@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Grant Edwards
>> <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I've noticed recently that the Gentoo handbook web pages are
>>> ridiculously wide. (It seems to me that they didn't used to be, but I
>>> wouldn't swear to that).
>>>
>>> For example, look at this page:
>>>
>>> ?http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2
>>>
>>
>> I'll admit that a couple of times I've found this frustrating but not
>> enough that I'd ask anyone to change things.
>>
>> I think the frustration, candidly, is that the web page programming
>> doesn't allow me to narrow the page as much as I might like and still
>> read the text. Sometimes I just want the browser to cover 1/2 the
>> screen, so that might be 600 pixels or so. Or maybe this is a Firefox
>> thing, not sure.

> OK, well this is getting weird because that is exactly the behavior I
> am seeing from both firefox and konqueror...it would appear I'm the
> only one?
>
> To be absolutely clear: When I resize the windows the text reformats
> itself on the fly from wide short paragraphs to narrow long
> paragraphs.

That only happens for me on pages that don't have any literal
(listing?) blocsk with light-blue backgrounds.

> No horizontal scroll bar which I agree is beyond annoying. This is
> the behavior I see from pretty much all well-designed web pages, and
> I rather thought it was default.

The stuff in the light-blue blocks can't be wrapped/reformatted, so
when you narrow the window so that it's not wide enough for any of the
light-blue blocks on the page, you _should_ get a scroll bar.  Do
those light-blue blocks get reformatted for you?  Or do they just get
clipped with way scroll-right and see them?

However, even you need to use the scrollbar to see the right-hand-end
of a light-blue block, I think the normal paragraphs should reformat
so they stay visible.

I know that can be done, because the web pages I create with asciidoc
behave that way.  Letting the width of the text blocks for any given
page be determined by the width of the command-line examlples doesn't
make sense to me.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I just had a NOSE
                                  at               JOB!!
                              gmail.com            

[gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-09-30, Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Grant Edwards
><grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I've noticed recently that the Gentoo handbook web pages are
>> ridiculously wide. (It seems to me that they didn't used to be, but I
>> wouldn't swear to that).
>>
>> For example, look at this page:
>>
>> ??http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2
>>
>
> I'll admit that a couple of times I've found this frustrating but not
> enough that I'd ask anyone to change things.
>
> I think the frustration, candidly, is that the web page programming
> doesn't allow me to narrow the page as much as I might like and still
> read the text.

Exactly -- I'd like to be able to narrow the browser window at least
to the point where it fits entirely on the screen (and it's a 21"
screen).

> Sometimes I just want the browser to cover 1/2 the screen, so that
> might be 600 pixels or so. Or maybe this is a Firefox thing, not
> sure.
>
> Anyway, I understand your point.

Oddly, there are people who don't seem to see the minimum line width
issue, and the paragraphs actually get re-wrapped when the browser
window is changed.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Somewhere in Tenafly,
                                  at               New Jersey, a chiropractor
                              gmail.com            is viewing "Leave it to
                                                   Beaver"!

Re: [gentoo-user] ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Jacob Todd]

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They're readable even on my droid x.

On Sep 30, 2010 1:15 PM, "Grant Edwards" <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've noticed recently that the Gentoo handbook web pages are
> ridiculously wide. (It seems to me that they didn't used to be, but I
> wouldn't swear to that).
>
> For example, look at this page:
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2
>
> The normal text paragraphs have lines that average over 160 characters
> per line. The generally accepted guideline for line length in order to
> maintain good readability is 40-80. The above page's lines are 2-4
> times as long as recommended for good readability, and they are in
> fact so long that I can't make my browser wide enough to see an entire
> line.
>
> Line lengths that long make the pages hard to read even if you _can_
> make your browser wide enough to show an entire line.
>
> The regular handbook is a little better:
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1
>
> That has lines that average about 140 characters. That's still much
> longer than what I'd consider good practice.
>
> Do the extremely long lines in the handbook web pages bother anybody
> else?
>
> I can understand that things like example code blocks or sample
> command input/output blocks might need to be wide enough to require
> horizontal scrolling of a browser window, but normal text paragraphs
> with 160 characters per line?
>
> --
> Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! Is this going to
> at involve RAW human ecstasy?
> gmail.com
>
>

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[gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-09-30, Jacob Todd <jaketodd422@gmail.com> wrote:

>> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2
>> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1

> They're readable even on my droid x.

Really? 

You don't have to scroll back-and-forth to see an entire line of text?

-- 
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Jacob Todd]

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Not if I rotate the screen.

On Sep 30, 2010 7:17 PM, "Grant Edwards" <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2010-09-30, Jacob Todd <jaketodd422@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2
>>> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1
>
>> They're readable even on my droid x.
>
> Really?
>
> You don't have to scroll back-and-forth to see an entire line of text?
>
> --
> Grant
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Dale]

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Top posting because Jacob had too.  ;-)

I have only seen those things on TV but it's hard to figure how 
something can fit on that little thing and won't fit on my 19" monitor 
that runs 1280x1024.   You must have some pretty small fonts or something.

Dale

:-)  :-)


Jacob Todd wrote:
>
> Not if I rotate the screen.
>
> On Sep 30, 2010 7:17 PM, "Grant Edwards" <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com 
> <mailto:grant.b.edwards@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > On 2010-09-30, Jacob Todd <jaketodd422@gmail.com 
> <mailto:jaketodd422@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >>> 
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2 
> <http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2>
> >>> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1
> >
> >> They're readable even on my droid x.
> >
> > Really?
> >
> > You don't have to scroll back-and-forth to see an entire line of text?
> >
> > --
> > Grant
> >
> >
>


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Jacob Todd]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 93 bytes --]

Just the default android fonts. They're small, but readable. Thank google
for pinch zoom. :p

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Re: [gentoo-user] ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Renat Golubchyk]

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Hi!

On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 17:13:24 +0000 (UTC) Grant Edwards
<grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've noticed recently that the Gentoo handbook web pages are
> ridiculously wide. (It seems to me that they didn't used to be, but I
> wouldn't swear to that).

As fas as I can remember they've always been that wide. Anyway, since
Gentoo uses [1] GuideXML [2] for their documentation which gets
transformed into HTML you won't be able to provide a fix if you don't
know what XSLT rules the converter uses for transformation.

Unfortunately Gentoo documentation uses table layout instead of
relying entirely on CSS. Therefore it is not easy to make the docs
beautiful for everybody right now. But there is a simple workaround
which you may find good enough. Add the following CSS rule into your 
~/.mozilla/<...your profile...>/chrome/userContent.css or install the
Stylish add-on [3] and create a style with the rule:

-------------------------------------------------------------
@namespace url(http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml);

@-moz-document domain("gentoo.org") {
  td.content p {
    width: 40em;
  }
}
-------------------------------------------------------------

Change "40em" to anything you like. 



Cheers,
Renat


[1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/site.xml
[2] http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/xml-guide.xml
[3] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/2108/
-- 
Probleme kann man niemals mit derselben Denkweise loesen,
durch die sie entstanden sind.
                                              (Einstein)

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Re: [gentoo-user] ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Stroller]

On 1 Oct 2010, at 23:18, Renat Golubchyk wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 17:13:24 +0000 (UTC) Grant Edwards
> <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I've noticed recently that the Gentoo handbook web pages are
>> ridiculously wide. (It seems to me that they didn't used to be, but I
>> wouldn't swear to that).
> 
> As fas as I can remember they've always been that wide. 

I'm sure you're mistaken. 

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Renat Golubchyk]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1041 bytes --]

On Sat, 2 Oct 2010 03:16:24 +0100 Stroller
<stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> On 1 Oct 2010, at 23:18, Renat Golubchyk wrote:
> > On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 17:13:24 +0000 (UTC) Grant Edwards
> > <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I've noticed recently that the Gentoo handbook web pages are
> >> ridiculously wide. (It seems to me that they didn't used to be,
> >> but I wouldn't swear to that).
> > 
> > As fas as I can remember they've always been that wide. 
> 
> I'm sure you're mistaken. 

May be. But PDF files that I "printed" in 2006 for offline reference
surely look the same to me as they do if I "print" them now. Comparing
printable page with online version I can't see any code that would
limit the text width. Take a look at old Gentoo docs with Wayback
Machine. They look now exactly the same way as they did 8 years ago.


Cheers,
Renat

-- 
Probleme kann man niemals mit derselben Denkweise loesen,
durch die sie entstanden sind.
                                              (Einstein)

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Re: [gentoo-user] ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Peter Humphrey]

On Saturday 02 October 2010 10:06:05 Renat Golubchyk wrote:

> Probleme kann man niemals mit derselben Denkweise loesen,
> durch die sie entstanden sind.

Please translate into English - thanks.

-- 
Rgds
Peter.          Linux Counter 5290, 1994-04-23.

Re: [gentoo-user] ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Renat Golubchyk]

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On Sun, 3 Oct 2010 18:32:57 +0100 Peter Humphrey
<peter@humphrey.ukfsn.org> wrote:
> On Saturday 02 October 2010 10:06:05 Renat Golubchyk wrote:
> 
> > Probleme kann man niemals mit derselben Denkweise loesen,
> > durch die sie entstanden sind.
> 
> Please translate into English - thanks.

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when
we created them.


-- 
Probleme kann man niemals mit derselben Denkweise loesen,
durch die sie entstanden sind.
                                              (Einstein)

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Re: [gentoo-user] ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Mick]

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On Monday 04 October 2010 03:00:10 Renat Golubchyk wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Oct 2010 18:32:57 +0100 Peter Humphrey
> 
> <peter@humphrey.ukfsn.org> wrote:
> > On Saturday 02 October 2010 10:06:05 Renat Golubchyk wrote:
> > > Probleme kann man niemals mit derselben Denkweise loesen,
> > > durch die sie entstanden sind.
> > 
> > Please translate into English - thanks.
> 
> We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when
> we created them.

Which is pretty apt, because the nested table with 99% width doesn't reflect 
best practice in web design these days ...
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Peter Humphrey]

On Monday 04 October 2010 03:00:10 Renat Golubchyk wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Oct 2010 18:32:57 +0100 Peter Humphrey
> 
> <peter@humphrey.ukfsn.org> wrote:
> > On Saturday 02 October 2010 10:06:05 Renat Golubchyk wrote:
> > > Probleme kann man niemals mit derselben Denkweise loesen,
> > > durch die sie entstanden sind.
> > 
> > Please translate into English - thanks.
> 
> We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used
> when we created them.

Thank you.

-- 
Rgds
Peter.          Linux Counter 5290, 1994-04-23.

[gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-10-01, Renat Golubchyk <ragermany@gmx.net> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 17:13:24 +0000 (UTC) Grant Edwards
><grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I've noticed recently that the Gentoo handbook web pages are
>> ridiculously wide. (It seems to me that they didn't used to be, but I
>> wouldn't swear to that).

Actually I think what's happened is that for some reason I have a much
larger average width difference between the proportional font and the
fixed font that I used to.

> As fas as I can remember they've always been that wide. Anyway, since
> Gentoo uses [1] GuideXML [2] for their documentation which gets
> transformed into HTML you won't be able to provide a fix if you don't
> know what XSLT rules the converter uses for transformation.
>
> Unfortunately Gentoo documentation uses table layout instead of
> relying entirely on CSS.

Yup, I was looking through the page source, and it didn't look like
they were using CSS.  I was pretty skeptical of CSS when it first
started showing up, but I think I'm now a convert.  It allows you do
do things in a much more "LaTeX" like manner: when you're writing all
you do is define what something is rather than how it's layed out.
[Which is how HTML was indended to be used 15 years ago, but it rather
quickly degenerated into the worlds crappiest page layout language
which depended utterly on the assumption that everybody on the planet
has the same size/resolution display and same OS/browser/version
display as the page's author.]

> Therefore it is not easy to make the docs beautiful for everybody
> right now. But there is a simple workaround which you may find good
> enough. Add the following CSS rule into your ~/.mozilla/<...your
> profile...>/chrome/userContent.css or install the Stylish add-on [3]
> and create a style with the rule:
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> @namespace url(http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml);
>
> @-moz-document domain("gentoo.org") {
>   td.content p {
>     width: 40em;
>   }
> }
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Change "40em" to anything you like.

Cool!  Now, will I be able to find this bit of info the next time I'm
doing an install...

[It doesn't matter how many browsers I configure now, the next time
I'm doing an install it won't be using one of them.]

-- 
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Fatih Tümen]

On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 1:18 AM, Renat Golubchyk <ragermany@gmx.net> wrote:
> Unfortunately Gentoo documentation uses table layout instead of
> relying entirely on CSS. Therefore it is not easy to make the docs
> beautiful for everybody right now. But there is a simple workaround
> which you may find good enough. Add the following CSS rule into your
> ~/.mozilla/<...your profile...>/chrome/userContent.css or install the
> Stylish add-on [3] and create a style with the rule:
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> @namespace url(http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml);
>
> @-moz-document domain("gentoo.org") {
>  td.content p {
>    width: 40em;
>  }
> }
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Change "40em" to anything you like.
>
>

Thank you very much for this tip. I use chromium and fortunately there
exists the Stylish chrome extension. I got it working with the code
you gave by just snipping the moz-document line.

When I inspect the element and check the page source I understand
where td.content and p comes from but could you explain what 'em'
suffix to 40 means please?


--
    Fatih

[gentoo-user] Re: ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-10-04, Fatih T?men <fthtmn+gentoo@gmail.com> wrote:

> When I inspect the element and check the page source I understand
> where td.content and p comes from but could you explain what 'em'
> suffix to 40 means please?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Em_%28typography%29

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Look into my eyes and
                                  at               try to forget that you have
                              gmail.com            a Macy's charge card!

Re: [gentoo-user] ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Derek Tracy]

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2010/10/4 Fatih Tümen <fthtmn+gentoo@gmail.com <fthtmn%2Bgentoo@gmail.com>>

> On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 1:18 AM, Renat Golubchyk <ragermany@gmx.net> wrote:
> > Unfortunately Gentoo documentation uses table layout instead of
> > relying entirely on CSS. Therefore it is not easy to make the docs
> > beautiful for everybody right now. But there is a simple workaround
> > which you may find good enough. Add the following CSS rule into your
> > ~/.mozilla/<...your profile...>/chrome/userContent.css or install the
> > Stylish add-on [3] and create a style with the rule:
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > @namespace url(http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml);
> >
> > @-moz-document domain("gentoo.org") {
> >  td.content p {
> >    width: 40em;
> >  }
> > }
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Change "40em" to anything you like.
> >
> >
>
> Thank you very much for this tip. I use chromium and fortunately there
> exists the Stylish chrome extension. I got it working with the code
> you gave by just snipping the moz-document line.
>
> When I inspect the element and check the page source I understand
> where td.content and p comes from but could you explain what 'em'
> suffix to 40 means please?
>
>
> --
>     Fatih
>
>
The "em" is just a length measurement.

You can read more about it here:
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/syndata.html#length-units

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Re: [gentoo-user] ridiculously wide handbook pages

[Fatih Tümen]

On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Derek Tracy <tracyde@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 2010/10/4 Fatih Tümen <fthtmn+gentoo@gmail.com>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 1:18 AM, Renat Golubchyk <ragermany@gmx.net> wrote:
>> > Unfortunately Gentoo documentation uses table layout instead of
>> > relying entirely on CSS. Therefore it is not easy to make the docs
>> > beautiful for everybody right now. But there is a simple workaround
>> > which you may find good enough. Add the following CSS rule into your
>> > ~/.mozilla/<...your profile...>/chrome/userContent.css or install the
>> > Stylish add-on [3] and create a style with the rule:
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------
>> > @namespace url(http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml);
>> >
>> > @-moz-document domain("gentoo.org") {
>> >  td.content p {
>> >    width: 40em;
>> >  }
>> > }
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Change "40em" to anything you like.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Thank you very much for this tip. I use chromium and fortunately there
>> exists the Stylish chrome extension. I got it working with the code
>> you gave by just snipping the moz-document line.
>>
>> When I inspect the element and check the page source I understand
>> where td.content and p comes from but could you explain what 'em'
>> suffix to 40 means please?
>>
>>
>> --
>>    Fatih
>>
>
> The "em" is just a length measurement.
>
> You can read more about it here:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/syndata.html#length-units
>

Thank you Grant and Derek.

--
    Fatih