Re: [gentoo-user] Install Using another System

Re: [gentoo-user] Install Using another System

[darren kirby]

quoth the Randy Barlow:
> One more question - I'd like to install Gentoo on a very old and small
> system that doesn't have a CD-ROM, or even an IDE cable that can connect
> two drives.  Can I put the harddrive from that system on my normal
> desktop and install as normal onto that drive?  The old system has a
> very different and old processor from my normal Gentoo system (it's a
> Cyrix MediaGX MMX Enhanced according to /proc/cpuinfo with a whopping 16
> kB of cache!)  Any problems doing something like this on a modern system
> that I haven't thought about?
>
> R

Should be OK as long as the host system is an x86. I would use very 
conservative CFLAGS. Your CHOST will likely need to be "i386-pc-linux-gnu".

There is a kernel config in "Processor family" that says "CyrixIII/Via-C3". Is 
that what you have? If not or if you are not sure then choose plain 
old "386".

Grub should work alright, as best as I can figure, as long as (as per the 
guide) you install it onto the HDDs MBR.

Maybe something I am not thinking of. Just make sure that when going through 
the guide that anything that requires CPU specific choices you remember to 
select for your target, not the host. This may have a side-effect of not 
booting whilst in the host, only when you move the HDD to the target machine.

Good luck!

-d
-- 
darren kirby :: Part of the problem since 1976 :: http://badcomputer.org
"...the number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected..."
- Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, June 1972
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Re: [gentoo-user] Install Using another System

[Florian Philipp]

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Am Montag 04 Juni 2007 23:28 schrieb darren kirby:
> quoth the Randy Barlow:
> > One more question - I'd like to install Gentoo on a very old and small
> > system that doesn't have a CD-ROM, or even an IDE cable that can connect
> > two drives.  Can I put the harddrive from that system on my normal
> > desktop and install as normal onto that drive?  The old system has a
> > very different and old processor from my normal Gentoo system (it's a
> > Cyrix MediaGX MMX Enhanced according to /proc/cpuinfo with a whopping 16
> > kB of cache!)  Any problems doing something like this on a modern system
> > that I haven't thought about?
> >
> > R
>
> Should be OK as long as the host system is an x86. I would use very
> conservative CFLAGS. Your CHOST will likely need to be "i386-pc-linux-gnu".
>
> There is a kernel config in "Processor family" that says "CyrixIII/Via-C3".
> Is that what you have? If not or if you are not sure then choose plain old
> "386".
>
> Grub should work alright, as best as I can figure, as long as (as per the
> guide) you install it onto the HDDs MBR.
>
> Maybe something I am not thinking of. Just make sure that when going
> through the guide that anything that requires CPU specific choices you
> remember to select for your target, not the host. This may have a
> side-effect of not booting whilst in the host, only when you move the HDD
> to the target machine.
>
> Good luck!
>

Please note that Gentoo needs a i486 to work. You can still optimize your code 
for it, though. See http://gentoo-wiki.com/Safe_Cflags#i386 for details.

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RE: [gentoo-user] Install Using another System

[burlingk]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Florian Philipp [mailto:f.philipp@addcom.de] 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 5:53 PM
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Install Using another System
> 
> 
> Am Montag 04 Juni 2007 23:28 schrieb darren kirby:
> > quoth the Randy Barlow:
> > > One more question - I'd like to install Gentoo on a very old and 
> > > small system that doesn't have a CD-ROM, or even an IDE 
> cable that 
> > > can connect two drives.  Can I put the harddrive from 
> that system on 
> > > my normal desktop and install as normal onto that drive?  The old 
> > > system has a very different and old processor from my 
> normal Gentoo 
> > > system (it's a Cyrix MediaGX MMX Enhanced according to 
> /proc/cpuinfo 
> > > with a whopping 16 kB of cache!)  Any problems doing 
> something like 
> > > this on a modern system that I haven't thought about?
> > >
> > > R
> >
> > Should be OK as long as the host system is an x86. I would use very 
> > conservative CFLAGS. Your CHOST will likely need to be 
> > "i386-pc-linux-gnu".
> >
> > There is a kernel config in "Processor family" that says 
> > "CyrixIII/Via-C3". Is that what you have? If not or if you are not 
> > sure then choose plain old "386".
> >
> > Grub should work alright, as best as I can figure, as long 
> as (as per 
> > the
> > guide) you install it onto the HDDs MBR.
> >
> > Maybe something I am not thinking of. Just make sure that 
> when going 
> > through the guide that anything that requires CPU specific 
> choices you 
> > remember to select for your target, not the host. This may have a 
> > side-effect of not booting whilst in the host, only when 
> you move the 
> > HDD to the target machine.
> >
> > Good luck!
> >
> 
> Please note that Gentoo needs a i486 to work. You can still 
> optimize your code 
> for it, though. See http://gentoo-wiki.com/Safe_Cflags#i386 
> for details.


There is also a flag in the same page as the Processor family for
Generic x86 support.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Install Using another System

[Randy Barlow]

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darren kirby wrote:
> Should be OK as long as the host system is an x86. I would use very 
> conservative CFLAGS. Your CHOST will likely need to be "i386-pc-linux-gnu".
> 
> There is a kernel config in "Processor family" that says "CyrixIII/Via-C3". Is 
> that what you have? If not or if you are not sure then choose plain 
> old "386".

It's the Cyrix MediaGX, which, according to gentoo-wiki, is safe with
i586 and -march=pentium-mmx, so that was what I was planning on doing...

- --
Randy Barlow
http://electronsweatshop.com

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for
his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who
called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a
people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy,
but now you have received mercy. ~1 Peter 2:9-10
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Re: [gentoo-user] Install Using another System

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Tuesday 05 June 2007 10:53:26 Florian Philipp wrote:
> Please note that Gentoo needs a i486 to work.

No, it doesn't. It needs at least an i486 CHOST to enable nptl. While nptl is 
faster that linuxthreads and thus should be preferred on systems that support 
it, it is not required in order to run Gentoo.

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Install Using another System

[Florian Philipp]

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Am Dienstag 05 Juni 2007 15:32 schrieb Bo Ørsted Andresen:
> On Tuesday 05 June 2007 10:53:26 Florian Philipp wrote:
> > Please note that Gentoo needs a i486 to work.
>
> No, it doesn't. It needs at least an i486 CHOST to enable nptl. While nptl
> is faster that linuxthreads and thus should be preferred on systems that
> support it, it is not required in order to run Gentoo.

According to this [1] glibc-2.4 does not support linuxthreads any longer. 
Older versions are available through Portage, though.
According to this [2]  you have no choice since 2006.1

[1] http://gentoo-wiki.com/Safe_Cflags#i386
[2] http://gentoo-wiki.com/NPTL

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Re: [gentoo-user] Install Using another System

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Tuesday 05 June 2007 16:21:31 Florian Philipp wrote:
> Am Dienstag 05 Juni 2007 15:32 schrieb Bo Ørsted Andresen:
> > On Tuesday 05 June 2007 10:53:26 Florian Philipp wrote:
> > > Please note that Gentoo needs a i486 to work.
> >
> > No, it doesn't. It needs at least an i486 CHOST to enable nptl. While
> > nptl is faster that linuxthreads and thus should be preferred on systems
> > that support it, it is not required in order to run Gentoo.
>
> According to this [1] glibc-2.4 does not support linuxthreads any longer.
> Older versions are available through Portage, though.

And newer versions. glibc-2.5 has support for linuxthreads too.

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Install Using another System

[Florian Philipp]

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Am Dienstag 05 Juni 2007 16:30 schrieb Bo Ørsted Andresen:
> On Tuesday 05 June 2007 16:21:31 Florian Philipp wrote:
> > Am Dienstag 05 Juni 2007 15:32 schrieb Bo Ørsted Andresen:
> > > On Tuesday 05 June 2007 10:53:26 Florian Philipp wrote:
> > > > Please note that Gentoo needs a i486 to work.
> > >
> > > No, it doesn't. It needs at least an i486 CHOST to enable nptl. While
> > > nptl is faster that linuxthreads and thus should be preferred on
> > > systems that support it, it is not required in order to run Gentoo.
> >
> > According to this [1] glibc-2.4 does not support linuxthreads any longer.
> > Older versions are available through Portage, though.
>
> And newer versions. glibc-2.5 has support for linuxthreads too.

Do you suggest I edit that hint at [1]. Does that solve [2] as well or do you 
need to do something like installing from stage1?

[1] http://gentoo-wiki.com/Safe_Cflags#i386
[2] http://gentoo-wiki.com/NPTL

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Re: [gentoo-user] Install Using another System

[Dan Farrell]

On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 07:58:31 -0400
Randy Barlow <randy@electronsweatshop.com> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> darren kirby wrote:
> > Should be OK as long as the host system is an x86. I would use very 
> > conservative CFLAGS. Your CHOST will likely need to be
> > "i386-pc-linux-gnu".
> > 
> > There is a kernel config in "Processor family" that says
> > "CyrixIII/Via-C3". Is that what you have? If not or if you are not
> > sure then choose plain old "386".
> 
> It's the Cyrix MediaGX, which, according to gentoo-wiki, is safe with
> i586 and -march=pentium-mmx, so that was what I was planning on
> doing...
> 
> - --
> Randy Barlow
> http://electronsweatshop.com
> 
> But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a
> people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies
> of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once
> you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not
> received mercy, but now you have received mercy. ~1 Peter 2:9-10
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Interesting chip!  According to wikipedia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaGX
this processor, introduced in 1997, represents Cyrix's stab at
combining the job of the CPU with hardware to process video and
audio.  After National Semi. bought out the company and sold the name
and trademarks to Via, NS developed into the Geode processor line,
which was then sold to AMD.  

Aside from being used in subcompact laptops, CTX EzBooks, and some
Compaq Presarios, Casio tablet PCs, and by Sun in the Dover
JavaStation, the chip has also been used in Arcade pinball
machines.

Unfortunately the cpu doesn't provide any L2 Cache, is heavily tied to
its companion chipset (don't bother removing it, it won't work anywhere
else ;-) ) And, of course, performance really sucks -- for one thing,
close association with the PCI bus required the same processor clock
speed as that bus, which you all know is a lot slower than a typical
FSB in '97.  

Sounds like a fun project.  Have you considered trying to get it to run
without a har drive at all?  I bet a server could provide NFS many
times faster than the hard drive...

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Re: [gentoo-user] Install Using another System

[Randy Barlow]

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Dan Farrell wrote:
> Sounds like a fun project.  Have you considered trying to get it to run
> without a har drive at all?  I bet a server could provide NFS many
> times faster than the hard drive...

Yeah, old hardware is fun to tinker with :)  I got this machine for free
from my roommate so I figure what the heck, let's put Gentoo on it!
That does sound like a cool idea - hadn't thought of trying NFS.  How
would one do something like that?  I imagine you still need a harddrive
in there to get the boot process going (to start up grub) and then you
could configure grub to do the rest of the NFS stuff?  This box doesn't
offer anything else like PXE, booting from USB.  It doesn't even have a
CD-ROM or a floppy.  Just a hard drive!

- --
Randy Barlow
http://electronsweatshop.com

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people
for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him
who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were
not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received
mercy, but now you have received mercy. ~1 Peter 2:9-10

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Re: [gentoo-user] Install Using another System

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Tuesday 05 June 2007 17:05:54 Florian Philipp wrote:
> > > > > Please note that Gentoo needs a i486 to work.
> > > >
> > > > No, it doesn't. It needs at least an i486 CHOST to enable nptl. While
> > > > nptl is faster that linuxthreads and thus should be preferred on
> > > > systems that support it, it is not required in order to run Gentoo.
> > >
> > > According to this [1] glibc-2.4 does not support linuxthreads any
> > > longer. Older versions are available through Portage, though.
> >
> > And newer versions. glibc-2.5 has support for linuxthreads too.
>
> Do you suggest I edit that hint at [1]. Does that solve [2] as well or do
> you need to do something like installing from stage1?

To be honest I don't really care enough to even look at the wiki. It does look 
like there are no 2007.0 stages with an i386 CHOST (probably because so few 
people actually want to install Gentoo on an real 386).

So either you'd have to use stage 1 from 2007.0 (not supported) or stage3-x86 
from 2006.1 (still supported). But the default-linux/x86/no-nptl profile is 
still stable and glibc-2.5 is unmasked on it so the point still stands until 
that profile becomes deprecated (and I doubt that will happen anytime soon).

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Install Using another System

[Dan Farrell]

On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 16:55:35 -0400
Randy Barlow <randy@electronsweatshop.com> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Dan Farrell wrote:
> > Sounds like a fun project.  Have you considered trying to get it to
> > run without a har drive at all?  I bet a server could provide NFS
> > many times faster than the hard drive...
> 
> Yeah, old hardware is fun to tinker with :)  I got this machine for
> free from my roommate so I figure what the heck, let's put Gentoo on
> it! That does sound like a cool idea - hadn't thought of trying NFS.
> How would one do something like that?  I imagine you still need a
> harddrive in there to get the boot process going (to start up grub)
> and then you could configure grub to do the rest of the NFS stuff?
> This box doesn't offer anything else like PXE, booting from USB.  It
> doesn't even have a CD-ROM or a floppy.  Just a hard drive!
> 
> - --
> Randy Barlow
> http://electronsweatshop.com
> 
First off I wanted to point out that this looks like a Pentium-class
processor, not 386 or 486.  While I'm sure it will happily act like a
{3|4}86, it will also probably happily work as a pentium-mmx.  I have
never put gentoo on a 486 but I know it will work on a pentium farily
well.  

If you cannot net-boot with PXE, you'll need to boot from something; I
guess the hard drive is the only choice.  All you'll need on the hard
drive is grub, the kernel, and, optionally, any initial ramdisks or
anything you require, or splash images, etc -- in short, the contents
of the boot partition, and no more.  

Then you can create a directory for the installation on an NFS-capable
server somewhere, and unzip the stage3, and chroot.  You should be able
to build for a pentium-type machine on any modern system, as long as it
has 32-bit support.  

The next step is to configure the kernel to be able to automatically
configure IP networking at boot time, and to allow the root fs on NFS,
both in their respective categories in menuconfig.  There is also a
netboot.txt (i think...) file in the kernel Documentation that can
explain the command-line syntax for specifying that the kernel boot
with an NFS root and configure IP networking at boot time.  

Finally, you build the kernel, and the rest of the system, and then
stick grub and the kernel image on the hard drive and you should be
good to go!  

Your NFS server will have to provide the filesystem, so you'll have to
set up an NFS file share.  That's easy.  Since you can't net-boot (that
is, recieve kernel and such with TFTP through the PXE stuff) you won't
need a TFTP server.  You can use a static IP address, but if not,
you'll need a dhcp server. 

If you want more help with net booting, just say so.  Ive done it
several times now.  

Another nice thing about this configuration is that as long as the  NFS
server can execute the same code as the diskless client (that is the
processor in the server is more capable and not less), then you can
build the system, and any packages thereafter, on the server and not on
your super-slow off-brand pseudo-pentium ; )  I don't think i need to
tell you how much nicer that will be for you.  

Best of luck, 
	Dan


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