[gentoo-user] emerge @system

[gentoo-user] emerge @system

[Peter Humphrey]

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Hello list,

I remember someone (Dale?) some time ago being dismayed at the large number 
of packages that would be installed by emerge @system.

Now I see what he meant: on this box 401 of the 1103 installed packages. I'd 
like to construct a set that would create a reliable basis for building the 
rest of @system and @world.

I have a small rescue system on the same disk, also ~amd64, which doesn't 
have X or any desktop programs but otherwise is configured for the same 
setup. Would it be sensible to use the 44 packages in that @system as a new 
set @sysbase on the main system, or would I miss something important?

The set is attached.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

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app-arch/bzip2
app-arch/gzip
app-arch/tar
app-arch/xz-utils
app-shells/bash:0
net-misc/iputils
net-misc/rsync
net-misc/wget
sys-apps/baselayout
sys-apps/busybox
sys-apps/coreutils
sys-apps/diffutils
sys-apps/file
sys-apps/findutils
sys-apps/gawk
sys-apps/grep
sys-apps/iproute2
sys-apps/kbd
sys-apps/less
sys-apps/man-pages
sys-apps/net-tools
sys-apps/openrc
sys-apps/sed
sys-apps/util-linux
sys-apps/which
sys-devel/binutils
sys-devel/gcc
sys-devel/gnuconfig
sys-devel/make
sys-devel/patch
sys-fs/e2fsprogs
sys-process/procps
sys-process/psmisc
virtual/dev-manager
virtual/editor
virtual/libc
virtual/man
virtual/modutils
virtual/os-headers
virtual/package-manager
virtual/pager
virtual/service-manager
virtual/shadow
virtual/ssh

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @system

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 29 Aug 2016 17:04:08 +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote:

> I remember someone (Dale?) some time ago being dismayed at the large
> number of packages that would be installed by emerge @system.
> 
> Now I see what he meant: on this box 401 of the 1103 installed
> packages. I'd like to construct a set that would create a reliable
> basis for building the rest of @system and @world.
> 
> I have a small rescue system on the same disk, also ~amd64, which
> doesn't have X or any desktop programs but otherwise is configured for
> the same setup. Would it be sensible to use the 44 packages in that
> @system as a new set @sysbase on the main system, or would I miss
> something important?

Surely the addition of X, and maybe kde or gnome, to your USE flags is
what is causing so many packages to be pulled in by @system.

I found something similar when building a new system recently, @system
pulled in X and a shedload of dependencies. Switching to a non-desktop
profile meant far fewer packages were needed to get a basic system.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Walk softly and carry a fully charged phazer.

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[gentoo-user] Re: emerge @system

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2016-08-29 20:08, Neil Bothwick wrote:

> Surely the addition of X, and maybe kde or gnome, to your USE flags is
> what is causing so many packages to be pulled in by @system.
> 
> I found something similar when building a new system recently, @system
> pulled in X and a shedload of dependencies. Switching to a non-desktop
> profile meant far fewer packages were needed to get a basic system.

Can you safely do this (change profile) on an existing system, and how?
Will it affect @world, and more generally, will it cause the next update
do work that would otherwise not be done?

-- 
Please *no* private Cc: on mailing lists and newsgroups
Why does the arrow on Hillary signs point to the right?

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: emerge @system

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Ian Zimmerman <itz@primate.net> wrote:
> On 2016-08-29 20:08, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>
>> Surely the addition of X, and maybe kde or gnome, to your USE flags is
>> what is causing so many packages to be pulled in by @system.
>>
>> I found something similar when building a new system recently, @system
>> pulled in X and a shedload of dependencies. Switching to a non-desktop
>> profile meant far fewer packages were needed to get a basic system.
>
> Can you safely do this (change profile) on an existing system, and how?
> Will it affect @world, and more generally, will it cause the next update
> do work that would otherwise not be done?
>

Switching profile isn't a big deal as long as you don't mess with the
toolchain.  You can't just go between multilib and non-multilib, for
example.  However going from desktop to base is trivial.

Now, if you switch from desktop to base, rebuild half your system,
then switch back to desktop, then of course emerge will want to
rebuild half your system again.  Or if you go from systemd to
non-systemd and have systemd as your init, then obviously you'll get a
surprise on reboot if you don't change your kernel command line.

Changing profiles is no different from changing a whole bunch of USE
flags for the most part.

In general you should set your profile/flags to whatever you want them
at and leave it there, unless you're trying to fix some kind of
circular dependency issue.  You're not going to save any time by
dropping flags and then re-enabling them.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @system

[Alan McKinnon]

On 29/08/2016 21:08, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2016 17:04:08 +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote:
>
>> I remember someone (Dale?) some time ago being dismayed at the large
>> number of packages that would be installed by emerge @system.
>>
>> Now I see what he meant: on this box 401 of the 1103 installed
>> packages. I'd like to construct a set that would create a reliable
>> basis for building the rest of @system and @world.
>>
>> I have a small rescue system on the same disk, also ~amd64, which
>> doesn't have X or any desktop programs but otherwise is configured for
>> the same setup. Would it be sensible to use the 44 packages in that
>> @system as a new set @sysbase on the main system, or would I miss
>> something important?
>
> Surely the addition of X, and maybe kde or gnome, to your USE flags is
> what is causing so many packages to be pulled in by @system.
>
> I found something similar when building a new system recently, @system
> pulled in X and a shedload of dependencies. Switching to a non-desktop
> profile meant far fewer packages were needed to get a basic system.
>
>

Don't forget that @system only lives in a context, and the context is a 
real computer.

Out of context it's just a list of strings. In context, it's strings 
that means packages, with deps and everything else that needs to be 
built for @system to mean anything on the machine it's added to.

One never needs to define @system, that is already done in a profile so 
it's not something that means sense to migrate or re-use elsewhere. 
Don't worry about @system, worry about USE and get that right. Emerge 
will deal with what it takes to give the user the @system he's really 
asking for.

Or maybe I don't completely understand yet Peter's actual question.

Alan

[gentoo-user] Re: emerge @system

[Martin Vaeth]

Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Would it be sensible to use the 44 packages in that @system as a new
> set @sysbase on the main system, or would I miss something important?

Actually, this set is even _larger_ than the @system set which
I got from combining both profiles

  default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop
  targets/systemd

The @system set from this profile contains only 41 packages,
your additional 3 packages being

  sys-apps/baselayout
  sys-apps/findutils
  sys-devel/patch

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @system

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 00:07:53 Alan McKinnon wrote:

> Don't forget that @system only lives in a context, and the context is a
> real computer.
> 
> Out of context it's just a list of strings. In context, it's strings
> that means packages, with deps and everything else that needs to be
> built for @system to mean anything on the machine it's added to.
> 
> One never needs to define @system, that is already done in a profile so
> it's not something that means sense to migrate or re-use elsewhere.
> Don't worry about @system, worry about USE and get that right. Emerge
> will deal with what it takes to give the user the @system he's really
> asking for.
> 
> Or maybe I don't completely understand yet Peter's actual question.

Hmm. I do seem to have a knack of not saying quite what I mean these days.

I want to define a minimal set to make sure the tool chain is correct and 
free of faults, not just up to date, before doing anything else. Then I can 
use that to build whatever other parts of the system I may be suspicious of. 
I know that portage will work out a good order of battle, but it assumes 
correctness in the tool chain: its job is to keep the system current. If 
there is a problem in the tools, it's going to cause problems when the rest 
of the system is built.

Quite a while ago I came across some advice to emerge gcc first, then glibc 
and libtool, then whatever else is needed (@system, @world etc). I've been 
doing that, but it does seem a bit minimal. That's why I thought of this 
sysbase idea.

You may wonder why I suspect my system at all. The reason is an intermittent 
series of apparently unrelated things going wrong. This box is only six 
months old and it contains some very recent hardware, and I'm not quite 
convinced that I have everything set up just right.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @system

[Alan McKinnon]

On 30/08/2016 11:25, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 00:07:53 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> 
>> Don't forget that @system only lives in a context, and the context is a
>> real computer.
>>
>> Out of context it's just a list of strings. In context, it's strings
>> that means packages, with deps and everything else that needs to be
>> built for @system to mean anything on the machine it's added to.
>>
>> One never needs to define @system, that is already done in a profile so
>> it's not something that means sense to migrate or re-use elsewhere.
>> Don't worry about @system, worry about USE and get that right. Emerge
>> will deal with what it takes to give the user the @system he's really
>> asking for.
>>
>> Or maybe I don't completely understand yet Peter's actual question.
> 
> Hmm. I do seem to have a knack of not saying quite what I mean these days.
> 
> I want to define a minimal set to make sure the tool chain is correct and 
> free of faults, not just up to date, before doing anything else. Then I can 
> use that to build whatever other parts of the system I may be suspicious of. 
> I know that portage will work out a good order of battle, but it assumes 
> correctness in the tool chain: its job is to keep the system current. If 
> there is a problem in the tools, it's going to cause problems when the rest 
> of the system is built.
> 
> Quite a while ago I came across some advice to emerge gcc first, then glibc 
> and libtool, then whatever else is needed (@system, @world etc). I've been 
> doing that, but it does seem a bit minimal. That's why I thought of this 
> sysbase idea.
> 
> You may wonder why I suspect my system at all. The reason is an intermittent 
> series of apparently unrelated things going wrong. This box is only six 
> months old and it contains some very recent hardware, and I'm not quite 
> convinced that I have everything set up just right.
> 

You have been given silly advice because things just do not work that
way. The set you want is @system.

It looks like you want to guarantee that portage's tools are 100%
correct so that portage can be assured it is using good stuff. But the
tool that you use to build those tools and get them correct is portage
itself :-)

There are only 3 ways to get a new improved toolchain:

- use a stage 3 which provides one
- use a stage 1 and do the whole thing by hand
- use portage

There's nothing wrong with using #3. Portage doesn't use the toolchain
much to get things going as it's python. As long as you have a decent
working python you are pretty much good to go. Of course it may use the
existing toolchain to rebuild the toolchain so you need to have a
toolchain first - which you get from a stage 1 or stage 3.

In any event, it's not just a case of building gcc - to get the latest
version portage needs curl, wget, zlib, tar and a bucket load of other
stuff t even fetch the code. Then it needs autotools and everything else
make uses to build it.

So really you are trying to fix a suspect system by rebuilding a good
system using the suspect system. And that just ain't never gonna work.
Maybe in some other universe, but not this one.

Just rebuild @system and let portage do it's thing - the result you will
get is exactly the same you will have after you update all of world, and
that is the toolchain you will use forever more. Any and all advice you
stumble across about rebuilding gcc and glibc and stuff is nonsense,
backwards and going the wrong way.


You should elaborate more and be specific on what you mean by "The
reason is an intermittent series of apparently unrelated things going
wrong."

Work the real problem, not an assumed one :-)


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @system

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 12:06:43 Alan McKinnon wrote:

> You should elaborate more and be specific on what you mean by "The
> reason is an intermittent series of apparently unrelated things going
> wrong."

Here's one then: In KMail (yes, I know*) the folder list contains an item 
"trash" (ugh!), but when I come to empty it it's called "Wastebin" (much 
better) in the drop-down menu.

And another: if I move my user account away and create a new one, setting 
KDE plasma up from scratch (this is ~amd64), the system-settings panel has 
no icons and the single-click-to-open preference is ignored, even though 
it's the default and I already have it set anyway. Then, if I revert to the 
original home directory, which has followed events through the last six 
months, those faults disappear.

> Work the real problem, not an assumed one :-)

Of course - when I can find it! I'm just trying to ensure that the system is 
clean before I go tilting at windmills. Possibly, I'm just seeing the 
immaturity of KDE-5. So be it, if so.

* I've seen references to KMail 5.0.3 already Out There, so I'm sticking 
with it in the hope that 5.* will be more solid.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @system

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 11:56:50 I wrote:
> On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 12:06:43 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > You should elaborate more and be specific on what you mean by "The
> > reason is an intermittent series of apparently unrelated things going
> > wrong."
> 
> Here's one then: In KMail (yes, I know) the folder list contains an item
> "trash" (ugh!), but when I come to empty it it's called "Wastebin" (much
> better) in the drop-down menu.
> 
> And another: if I move my user account away and create a new one, setting
> KDE plasma up from scratch (this is ~amd64), the system-settings panel has
> no icons and the single-click-to-open preference is ignored, even though
> it's the default and I already have it set anyway. Then, if I revert to
> the original home directory, which has followed events through the last
> six months, those faults disappear.

One more: I've just emerged sci-misc/boinc, and portage overwrote 
/etc/conf.d/boinc without asking for permission. I have  
/usr/share/applications/boincmgr-boinc.desktop in CONFIG_PROTECT; that was 
overwritten too.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @system

[J. Roeleveld]

On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 11:56:50 AM Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 12:06:43 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > You should elaborate more and be specific on what you mean by "The
> > reason is an intermittent series of apparently unrelated things going
> > wrong."
> 
> Here's one then: In KMail (yes, I know*) the folder list contains an item
> "trash" (ugh!), but when I come to empty it it's called "Wastebin" (much
> better) in the drop-down menu.

Check your language/internationisation settings.
The translations is from "kde-apps/kdepim-l10n"

> And another: if I move my user account away and create a new one, setting
> KDE plasma up from scratch (this is ~amd64), the system-settings panel has
> no icons and the single-click-to-open preference is ignored, even though
> it's the default and I already have it set anyway. Then, if I revert to the
> original home directory, which has followed events through the last six
> months, those faults disappear.

Hmm... not sure where this comes from

> > Work the real problem, not an assumed one :-)
> 
> Of course - when I can find it! I'm just trying to ensure that the system is
> clean before I go tilting at windmills. Possibly, I'm just seeing the
> immaturity of KDE-5. So be it, if so.

Could be...

> * I've seen references to KMail 5.0.3 already Out There, so I'm sticking
> with it in the hope that 5.* will be more solid.

I'm still using Kmail 4.x until Kmail 5 becomes unmasked...

If you want a truly clean build:
emerge -ae @system
emerge -ae @world
emerge -a --depclean

(That's what I did last time I had too many strange issues)

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @system

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 13:38:13 J. Roeleveld wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 11:56:50 AM Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 12:06:43 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > You should elaborate more and be specific on what you mean by "The
> > > reason is an intermittent series of apparently unrelated things going
> > > wrong."
> > 
> > Here's one then: In KMail (yes, I know*) the folder list contains an
> > item
> > "trash" (ugh!), but when I come to empty it it's called "Wastebin" (much
> > better) in the drop-down menu.
> 
> Check your language/internationisation settings.
> The translations is from "kde-apps/kdepim-l10n"

I can't find anything wrong with those settings. Everything is set to 
British English.

$ locale -a
C
en_GB
en_GB.iso88591
en_GB.iso885915
en_GB.utf8
POSIX

$ eselect locale list
Available targets for the LANG variable:
  [1]   C
  [2]   en_GB
  [3]   en_GB.iso88591
  [4]   en_GB.iso885915
  [5]   en_GB.utf8 *
  [6]   POSIX
  [ ]   (free form)

> > And another: if I move my user account away and create a new one,
> > setting KDE plasma up from scratch (this is ~amd64), the system-settings
> > panel has no icons and the single-click-to-open preference is ignored,
> > even though it's the default and I already have it set anyway. Then, if
> > I revert to the original home directory, which has followed events
> > through the last six months, those faults disappear.
> 
> Hmm... not sure where this comes from

But this time, the single-click-to-open preference is still ignored.

You see, the system is behaving inconsistently - even irrationally at times.

--->8

> > * I've seen references to KMail 5.0.3 already Out There, so I'm sticking
> > with it in the hope that 5.* will be more solid.
> 
> I'm still using Kmail 4.x until Kmail 5 becomes unmasked...

As far as I can see, Kmail 5 isn't even in the tree yet.

> If you want a truly clean build:
> emerge -ae @system
> emerge -ae @world
> emerge -a --depclean
> 
> (That's what I did last time I had too many strange issues)

I've done that or similar many times over the last several weeks. I think 
I'm left with just one sensible option: to build a new system from scratch, 
complete with a new user account, not carrying anything but necessities over 
from the current system.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @system

[Alan McKinnon]

On 30/08/2016 12:56, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 12:06:43 Alan McKinnon wrote:
>
>> You should elaborate more and be specific on what you mean by "The
>> reason is an intermittent series of apparently unrelated things going
>> wrong."
>
> Here's one then: In KMail (yes, I know*) the folder list contains an item
> "trash" (ugh!), but when I come to empty it it's called "Wastebin" (much
> better) in the drop-down menu.
>
> And another: if I move my user account away and create a new one, setting
> KDE plasma up from scratch (this is ~amd64), the system-settings panel has
> no icons and the single-click-to-open preference is ignored, even though
> it's the default and I already have it set anyway. Then, if I revert to the
> original home directory, which has followed events through the last six
> months, those faults disappear.

How would @system possibly affect that?

True, in theory any software can have an influence on any other software 
and cause breakage; but with those symptoms you ought to be 
investigating @system last, not first

Your problems lie within KDE itself, I'd bet hard-earned money on that


>
>> Work the real problem, not an assumed one :-)
>
> Of course - when I can find it! I'm just trying to ensure that the system is
> clean before I go tilting at windmills. Possibly, I'm just seeing the
> immaturity of KDE-5. So be it, if so.
>
> * I've seen references to KMail 5.0.3 already Out There, so I'm sticking
> with it in the hope that 5.* will be more solid.
>

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @system

[Mick]

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On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 15:30:51 Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 13:38:13 J. Roeleveld wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 11:56:50 AM Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > > On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 12:06:43 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > > You should elaborate more and be specific on what you mean by "The
> > > > reason is an intermittent series of apparently unrelated things going
> > > > wrong."
> > > 
> > > Here's one then: In KMail (yes, I know*) the folder list contains an
> > > item
> > > "trash" (ugh!), but when I come to empty it it's called "Wastebin" (much
> > > better) in the drop-down menu.
> > 
> > Check your language/internationisation settings.
> > The translations is from "kde-apps/kdepim-l10n"
> 
> I can't find anything wrong with those settings. Everything is set to
> British English.
> 
> $ locale -a
> C
> en_GB
> en_GB.iso88591
> en_GB.iso885915
> en_GB.utf8
> POSIX
> 
> $ eselect locale list
> Available targets for the LANG variable:
>   [1]   C
>   [2]   en_GB
>   [3]   en_GB.iso88591
>   [4]   en_GB.iso885915
>   [5]   en_GB.utf8 *
>   [6]   POSIX
>   [ ]   (free form)

This is all OK.


> > > And another: if I move my user account away and create a new one,
> > > setting KDE plasma up from scratch (this is ~amd64), the system-settings
> > > panel has no icons and the single-click-to-open preference is ignored,
> > > even though it's the default and I already have it set anyway. Then, if
> > > I revert to the original home directory, which has followed events
> > > through the last six months, those faults disappear.
> > 
> > Hmm... not sure where this comes from
> 
> But this time, the single-click-to-open preference is still ignored.
> 
> You see, the system is behaving inconsistently - even irrationally at times.

The latest Konqueror (stable) update to 4.14.20 fixed the one click problem, as 
well as opening files within Konqueror itself, rather than opening a separate 
dolphin window.  Dolphin is still borked and behaves /irrationally/.  I hope 
the next update will fix that too.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @system

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tuesday 30 August 2016 22:51:47 Mick wrote:
> On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 15:30:51 Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 13:38:13 J. Roeleveld wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 11:56:50 AM Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 12:06:43 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > > > You should elaborate more and be specific on what you mean by "The
> > > > > reason is an intermittent series of apparently unrelated things
> > > > > going
> > > > > wrong."
> > > > 
> > > > Here's one then: In KMail (yes, I know*) the folder list contains an
> > > > item
> > > > "trash" (ugh!), but when I come to empty it it's called "Wastebin"
> > > > (much
> > > > better) in the drop-down menu.
> > > 
> > > Check your language/internationisation settings.
> > > The translations is from "kde-apps/kdepim-l10n"
> > 
> > I can't find anything wrong with those settings. Everything is set to
> > British English.
> > 
> > $ locale -a
> > C
> > en_GB
> > en_GB.iso88591
> > en_GB.iso885915
> > en_GB.utf8
> > POSIX
> > 
> > $ eselect locale list
> > 
> > Available targets for the LANG variable:
> >   [1]   C
> >   [2]   en_GB
> >   [3]   en_GB.iso88591
> >   [4]   en_GB.iso885915
> >   [5]   en_GB.utf8 *
> >   [6]   POSIX
> >   [ ]   (free form)
> 
> This is all OK.
> 
> > > > And another: if I move my user account away and create a new one,
> > > > setting KDE plasma up from scratch (this is ~amd64), the
> > > > system-settings
> > > > panel has no icons and the single-click-to-open preference is
> > > > ignored,
> > > > even though it's the default and I already have it set anyway. Then,
> > > > if
> > > > I revert to the original home directory, which has followed events
> > > > through the last six months, those faults disappear.
> > > 
> > > Hmm... not sure where this comes from
> > 
> > But this time, the single-click-to-open preference is still ignored.
> > 
> > You see, the system is behaving inconsistently - even irrationally at
> > times.
> The latest Konqueror (stable) update to 4.14.20 fixed the one click
> problem, as well as opening files within Konqueror itself, rather than
> opening a separate dolphin window.  Dolphin is still borked and behaves
> /irrationally/.  I hope the next update will fix that too.

Thanks to all who've helped. I've now just completed a rebuild from bare 
metal and everything seems fine at the moment.

-- 
Rgds
Peter