[gentoo-user] Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[gentoo-user] Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Mikie]

Anyone out there know where I could DL an iso file with a simple route
only linux?

I just need routing and no other features.

Thanks
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Re: [gentoo-user] Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Norberto Bensa]

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Mikie wrote:
> Anyone out there know where I could DL an iso file with a simple route
> only linux?

Is _really_ that hard to use Google?

Here you go: first link: http://www.wifi.com.ar/english/cdrouter.html

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Re: [gentoo-user] Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Albert Hopkins]

On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 19:46 -0300, Norberto Bensa wrote:
> Mikie wrote:
> > Anyone out there know where I could DL an iso file with a simple
> route
> > only linux?
> 
> Is _really_ that hard to use Google? 

Maybe they've never heard of Google.  Or maybe they live in a country
where Google is forced to censor their search results or something like
that.

... or maybe they're just lazy.

-m


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Re: [gentoo-user] Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[JT Justman]

Albert Hopkins wrote:

> Or maybe they live in a country
> where Google is forced to censor their search results or something like
> that.

You mean Redmond? I can't think of another country where they don't want
you searching for Linux :P
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Re: [gentoo-user] Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Peter Lewis]

On Tuesday 20 February 2007 00:48, Albert Hopkins wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 19:46 -0300, Norberto Bensa wrote:
> > Mikie wrote:
> > > Anyone out there know where I could DL an iso file with a simple
> >
> > route
> >
> > > only linux?
> >
> > Is _really_ that hard to use Google?
>
> Maybe they've never heard of Google.  Or maybe they live in a country
> where Google is forced to censor their search results or something like
> that.
>
> ... or maybe they're just lazy.

Or maybe they actually wanted a recommendation from someone rather than just 
picking something off the shelf based on how good its website was.

Stranger things have happened...

Pete.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Dale]

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Peter Lewis wrote:
> On Tuesday 20 February 2007 00:48, Albert Hopkins wrote:
>   
>> On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 19:46 -0300, Norberto Bensa wrote:
>>     
>>> Mikie wrote:
>>>       
>>>> Anyone out there know where I could DL an iso file with a simple
>>>>         
>>> route
>>>
>>>       
>>>> only linux?
>>>>         
>>> Is _really_ that hard to use Google?
>>>       
>> Maybe they've never heard of Google.  Or maybe they live in a country
>> where Google is forced to censor their search results or something like
>> that.
>>
>> ... or maybe they're just lazy.
>>     
>
> Or maybe they actually wanted a recommendation from someone rather than just 
> picking something off the shelf based on how good its website was.
>
> Stranger things have happened...
>
> Pete.
>   

That I can understand.  I sometimes want someone to tell me something
good to use so I can get a unbiased opinion.  It's no different than
which distro to use, it depends on a lot of things and sometimes asking
and getting some advice is the best way to go.  If you want paid support
and rare updates, Redhat.  If you want bleeding edge and fast, your on
the right list anyway.  LOL

Google ain't always right either.  Sometimes I have more questions after
a Google search than I did when I started searching.  :/

Dale

-- 
www.myspace.com/dalek1967


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Re: [gentoo-user] Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Albert Hopkins]

On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 03:23 -0600, Dale wrote:
> That I can understand.  I sometimes want someone to tell me something
> good to use so I can get a unbiased opinion. 

Yeah except a) opinions *are* biased and b) one's opinion was never
asked and c) I've observed that asking a bunch of strangers for their
opinion is just as (un)reliable as a Google search (recall how Google
ranks pages).

> Google ain't always right either.  Sometimes I have more questions
> after a Google search than I did when I started searching.  :/ 

As do I, but I always considered that a good thing.

-m

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Re: [gentoo-user] Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Dale]

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Albert Hopkins wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 03:23 -0600, Dale wrote:
>   
>> That I can understand.  I sometimes want someone to tell me something
>> good to use so I can get a unbiased opinion. 
>>     
>
> Yeah except a) opinions *are* biased and b) one's opinion was never
> asked and c) I've observed that asking a bunch of strangers for their
> opinion is just as (un)reliable as a Google search (recall how Google
> ranks pages).
>   

Any time you ask a questions, you are really asking for a opinion. 
Example, if you ask how to update the config files after doing a emerge
-u world, you are about to get opinions because there is more than one
way to do it.  More than one command.  So that could take care of a & b. 

Since some things are just opinions, then you are right about c. 
However, I usually get better answers here provided I give enough
information that someone can help.  My problem is that usually I don't
know what all info I need to post.  That's a whole new ball of yarn there.

>   
>> Google ain't always right either.  Sometimes I have more questions
>> after a Google search than I did when I started searching.  :/ 
>>     
>
> As do I, but I always considered that a good thing.
>
> -m
>
>   

It could be a good thing.  Just keep in mind that I confuse pretty
easily sometimes.  Throw me a curve ball and I'll miss it every time.  LOL

Dale

:-)  :-)  :-)  :-)

-- 
www.myspace.com/dalek1967


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Re: [gentoo-user] Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Norberto Bensa]

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Peter Lewis wrote:
> Or maybe they actually wanted a recommendation from someone rather than
> just picking something off the shelf based on how good its website was.

Hm. It sounded like he was lazy to do a research work. I have to confess it 
didn't even cross my head that OP just wanted a recommendation on available 
router distros. In that case, I feel very sorry.


Best regards,
Norberto

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Re: [gentoo-user] Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 08:27:09 -0300, Norberto Bensa wrote:

> Hm. It sounded like he was lazy to do a research work. I have to
> confess it didn't even cross my head that OP just wanted a
> recommendation on available router distros. In that case, I feel very
> sorry.

Don't be too hard on yourself, the OP didn't ask for a recommendation,
only a download location.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Peter Lewis]

On Tuesday 20 February 2007 11:44, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 08:27:09 -0300, Norberto Bensa wrote:
> > Hm. It sounded like he was lazy to do a research work. I have to
> > confess it didn't even cross my head that OP just wanted a
> > recommendation on available router distros. In that case, I feel very
> > sorry.
>
> Don't be too hard on yourself, the OP didn't ask for a recommendation,
> only a download location.

No, I didn't mean it as a criticism anyway. I just find that it helps to 
assume the best on mailing lists. It all helps for a happy community.

:-)

Pete.
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[gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[James]

Peter Lewis <prlewis <at> letterboxes.org> writes:


> No, I didn't mean it as a criticism anyway. I just find that it helps to 
> assume the best on mailing lists. It all helps for a happy community.

Dear Pompous Jerks:

The arrogance of these responses is astounding. Does anyone believe
in civility any more?

If google is so wonderful, and all of the aforementioned geniuses
so bright, how did you guys miss the most glaring response of all?

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/gnap-userguide.xml

After all, since he asked on a gentoo list, might we not all assume
that he's inquiring about a gentoo_ish solution, without explicit
statement thereof?


You guys should be ashamed of your behavior. Just because somebody 
does not write a politically correct question, does not mean
they don't need help. If you are not will to *HELP* then just 
ignore the email......  Besides, Gentoo's greatest strength is
the help the community provides to one another. Do you think this
guy is now going to go to his friends and say "hey checkout this
firewall I found and set up with the help of the gentoo community?"


James

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Peter Lewis]

James,

On Tuesday 20 February 2007 15:46, James wrote:
> Peter Lewis <prlewis <at> letterboxes.org> writes:
> > No, I didn't mean it as a criticism anyway. I just find that it helps to
> > assume the best on mailing lists. It all helps for a happy community.
>
> Dear Pompous Jerks:

Are you including me in that?

If you read what I wrote, you will find that I was indeed advocating the use 
of the mailing list for people to ask for advice / experiences, rather than 
flaming someone for not using Google.

I too am surprised by the lack of civility on this and other Gentoo mailing 
lists sometimes. This is something which can only put people off asking for 
help on them.

> The arrogance of these responses is astounding. Does anyone believe
> in civility any more?
>
> If google is so wonderful, and all of the aforementioned geniuses
> so bright, how did you guys miss the most glaring response of all?
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/gnap-userguide.xml

Quite. I know very little about the topic which the OP was asking about, 
Gentoo solutions or otherwise. I was merely defending the guy's right to ask 
the question without being shot down for "being lazy".

> After all, since he asked on a gentoo list, might we not all assume
> that he's inquiring about a gentoo_ish solution, without explicit
> statement thereof?
>
>
> You guys should be ashamed of your behavior. Just because somebody
> does not write a politically correct question, does not mean
> they don't need help. If you are not will to *HELP* then just
> ignore the email...... 

I could not agree more.

> Besides, Gentoo's greatest strength is 
> the help the community provides to one another. Do you think this
> guy is now going to go to his friends and say "hey checkout this
> firewall I found and set up with the help of the gentoo community?"

Like I said, I think this list could be a LOT friendlier. Just because someone 
is a Gentoo user does not mean that we can assume all sorts of knowledge and 
skills. They may well just be curious or like the thing.

Pete.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Tuesday 20 February 2007 19:26:21 Peter Lewis wrote:
> > The arrogance of these responses is astounding. Does anyone believe
> > in civility any more?
[SNIP]
> Quite. I know very little about the topic which the OP was asking about,
> Gentoo solutions or otherwise. I was merely defending the guy's right to
> ask the question without being shot down for "being lazy".

I really don't see how suggesting that the OP might be lazy is so arrogant. If 
it's not actually the case then he can just say so. Thus far he hasn't 
replied to any of the replies in this thread anyway and the original post 
contained so little information that I gave up on deciphering it. Even if 
it's a language issue he can just say that...

-- 
Bo Andresen

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RE: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Mikie]

Actually I did Google extensively and looked at three packages which would require too much time to implement.

The Vyatta was working in 10 min and now my lab's three Gentoo boxes are routed.

Thanks again.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Bo Ørsted Andresen [mailto:bo.andresen@zlin.dk] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 8:54 AM
To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

On Tuesday 20 February 2007 19:26:21 Peter Lewis wrote:
> > The arrogance of these responses is astounding. Does anyone believe
> > in civility any more?
[SNIP]
> Quite. I know very little about the topic which the OP was asking about,
> Gentoo solutions or otherwise. I was merely defending the guy's right to
> ask the question without being shot down for "being lazy".

I really don't see how suggesting that the OP might be lazy is so arrogant. If 
it's not actually the case then he can just say so. Thus far he hasn't 
replied to any of the replies in this thread anyway and the original post 
contained so little information that I gave up on deciphering it. Even if 
it's a language issue he can just say that...

-- 
Bo Andresen
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wednesday 21 February 2007, Mikie wrote:
> Actually I did Google extensively and looked at three packages which
> would require too much time to implement.
>
> The Vyatta was working in 10 min and now my lab's three Gentoo boxes
> are routed.

And this entire bullshit thread would have been prevented had you done 
the normal thing on mailing lists:

SUPPLY ALL REQUIRED AND RELEVANT INFORMATION.

Here's what you said:

"Anyone out there know where I could DL an iso file with a simple route
only linux?

"I just need routing and no other features.

"Thanks"


Here's an example of what you should have said:

Hi all,

I need a small simple distro to use for a router. It must run on a tiny 
machine <insert hardware, RAM and disk specs here>, I don't need 
iptables and conntrack functionality so ram is not a major issue. It 
will route for three hosts and I'll need it to scale to 6 easily.

Google found me products A, B and C, and all seem OK but none strike me 
as being perfectly suited <insert short reasons as to why here>.

Anyone here used these distros and can give comment? Or maybe recommend 
something I haven't listed already?

thanks,

<your name>

See the difference? I can give you a real answer to the example, but 
can't really respond positively to the original (and it has nothing to 
do with grammar or language)


alan

p.s. this was not a flame


-- 
Optimists say the glass is half full,
Pessimists say the glass is half empty,
Developers say wtf is the glass twice as big as it needs to be?

Alan McKinnon
alan at linuxholdings dot co dot za
+27 82, double three seven, one nine three five
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Peter Lewis]

On Wednesday 21 February 2007 13:54, Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:
> On Tuesday 20 February 2007 19:26:21 Peter Lewis wrote:
> > > The arrogance of these responses is astounding. Does anyone believe
> > > in civility any more?
>
> [SNIP]
>
> > Quite. I know very little about the topic which the OP was asking about,
> > Gentoo solutions or otherwise. I was merely defending the guy's right to
> > ask the question without being shot down for "being lazy".
>
> I really don't see how suggesting that the OP might be lazy is so arrogant.
> If it's not actually the case then he can just say so. Thus far he hasn't
> replied to any of the replies in this thread anyway and the original post
> contained so little information that I gave up on deciphering it. Even if
> it's a language issue he can just say that...

I don't really think that it's arrogant, as you put it, just not that helpful.

All I'm really saying is that it's good to try to maintain a friendly 
atmostphere where people feel like they can post without feeling like they 
might be acting too silly. Perhaps some people are lazy, perhaps some aren't, 
but like another poster said, you can just ignore the post if you don't like 
it.

I'm a big fan of the "there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers" way 
of thinking. IMO this list should be as non-threatening for 
people-who-want-to-find-out-stuff-they-don't-know as possible.

:-)

Pete.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:17:45 +0000, Peter Lewis wrote:

> I'm a big fan of the "there are no stupid questions, just stupid
> answers" way of thinking.

A job providing technical support will soon cure you of that :)

More seriously, there is such a thing as a bad question, and they
significantly outnumber the good. Most questions provide too little
information to get a really useful answer. GIGO applies here as much as
anywhere else.

 
-- 
Neil Bothwick

WinErr 011: Window open - Do not look outside

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Peter Lewis]

On Wednesday 21 February 2007 16:03, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:17:45 +0000, Peter Lewis wrote:
> > I'm a big fan of the "there are no stupid questions, just stupid
> > answers" way of thinking.
>
> A job providing technical support will soon cure you of that :)

Ha ha, perhaps :-)

> More seriously, there is such a thing as a bad question, and they
> significantly outnumber the good. Most questions provide too little
> information to get a really useful answer.

That may well be true, but it doesn't make the question invalid - just perhaps 
in the wrong forum.

> GIGO applies here as much as 
> anywhere else.

Too true. I wouldn't want to encourage the asking of questions!

So, and I ask this as an honest question, is it generally accepted that the 
level of technical knowledge expected on this list is higher than, say, on 
the forums? Or the IRC channels?

I'm relatively new to the Gentoo community, though not to online or computing 
communities generally, and am finding that there are a lot more unspoken 
norms or rules than I am used to (or perhaps the seasoned members are less 
forgiving of them being broken), which can be quite a disincentive to a 
newcomer.

This is all just my opinion, of course, but I was just wondering.

Pete.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Peter Lewis]

On Wednesday 21 February 2007 16:36, I wrote:
> Too true. I wouldn't want to encourage the asking of questions!

D'oh! That was supposed to be "the asking of *stupid* questions"...

sorry
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Wednesday 21 February 2007 17:36:28 Peter Lewis wrote:
> > GIGO applies here as much as
> > anywhere else.
>
> Too true. I wouldn't want to encourage the asking of [stupid] questions!
>
> So, and I ask this as an honest question, is it generally accepted that the
> level of technical knowledge expected on this list is higher than, say, on
> the forums? Or the IRC channels?

From the OPs, no. Any newcomers with zero knowledge are welcome to ask 
questions on this list. It's just a matter of trying to use provide useful 
info, trying to apply common sense, being responsive and trying to learn from 
the answers. I'm fairly sure most people on this list regard it as a very 
tolerant list.

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

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On Wednesday 21 February 2007, Peter Lewis <prlewis@letterboxes.org> wrote 
about 'Re: [gentoo-user]  Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?':
> On Wednesday 21 February 2007 16:03, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > More seriously, there is such a thing as a bad question, and they
> > significantly outnumber the good. Most questions provide too little
> > information to get a really useful answer.
>
> That may well be true, but it doesn't make the question invalid - just
> perhaps in the wrong forum.

It doesn't make the question invalid, at all.  But, it does reduce the 
amount of responses you get AND limit their quality, no matter what medium 
is used.  AFAIK, no one on IRC/email/forums is getting paid to do Gentoo 
support, so when answering a question is too much work, we can just skip 
it.  If we have to guess to much of your setup or list a large number of 
possible problems (because we don't know which ones it isn't) or enter a 
longer dialog to get the information to solve the problem, you might just 
get skipped.

While ESR is sometimes full of crap, he does have good guide on how to ask 
questions that will attract good answers: 
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

> So, and I ask this as an honest question, is it generally accepted that
> the level of technical knowledge expected on this list is higher than,
> say, on the forums? Or the IRC channels?

I tend to think that technically savvy users will migrate to email/IRC, but 
I don't have any foundation for that belief.  That probably me just being 
elitist.  I've always thought that web forums generally suck as a medium.

> I'm relatively new to the Gentoo community, though not to online or
> computing communities generally, and am finding that there are a lot
> more unspoken norms or rules than I am used to (or perhaps the seasoned
> members are less forgiving of them being broken), which can be quite a
> disincentive to a newcomer.

Hrm, I can't say there are many more rules here than on my other mailing 
lists, but there are a number of informal rules that are NOT laid out in 
any FAQ or welcome message.  It would be helpful for at least some people 
if we would let them know about our 5 pillars: "Plain-Text Only", "No 
Top-Posting", "No Thread Hijacking", "Attachments Only By Request (and 
consider private mail)", and "Trim Quoted Material".

-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.                     ,= ,-_-. =. 
bss03@volumehost.net                      ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy           `-'(. .)`-' 
http://iguanasuicide.org/                      \_/     
New GPG Key!  Old key expires 2007-03-25.  Upgrade NOW!

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RE: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Nelson, David (ED, PAR&D)]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. [mailto:bss03@volumehost.net]
> Sent: 21 February 2007 17:53
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?
>
> Hrm, I can't say there are many more rules here than on my 
> other mailing 
> lists, but there are a number of informal rules that are NOT 
> laid out in 
> any FAQ or welcome message.  It would be helpful for at least 
> some people 
> if we would let them know about our 5 pillars: "Plain-Text Only", "No 
> Top-Posting", "No Thread Hijacking", "Attachments Only By 
> Request (and 
> consider private mail)", and "Trim Quoted Material".

IMO it would be useful if all new mailing list subscribers were told these "5 pillars" when signing up. Makes for a happier mailing list overall.


--
djn

I do not represent anyone else in emails I send to this list.
 
--
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Wednesday 21 February 2007 19:06:21 Nelson, David (ED, PAR&D) wrote:
> IMO it would be useful if all new mailing list subscribers were told these
> "5 pillars" when signing up. Makes for a happier mailing list overall.

Then file a bug. :)

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Peter Lewis]

On Wednesday 21 February 2007 18:06, Nelson, David (ED, PAR&D) wrote:
> > From: Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. [mailto:bss03@volumehost.net]
> > Sent: 21 February 2007 17:53
> > It would be helpful for at least
> > some people
> > if we would let them know about our 5 pillars: "Plain-Text Only", "No
> > Top-Posting", "No Thread Hijacking", "Attachments Only By
> > Request (and
> > consider private mail)", and "Trim Quoted Material".
>
> IMO it would be useful if all new mailing list subscribers were told these
> "5 pillars" when signing up. Makes for a happier mailing list overall.

Yeah, that sounds like a good idea.

Well, I found this discussion quite helpful in the end - and sorry for 
hijacking the thread ;-)

I hope I can be of some use on the list.

Pete.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Wednesday 21 February 2007 18:52:49 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> It would be helpful for at least some people
> if we would let them know about our 5 pillars: [...] "Attachments Only By
> Request (and consider private mail)" 

Actually I disagree with that one. Sometimes when people think some failing 
build log or revdep-rebuild -p output is too long I would much rather they 
attached it as a compressed file than pasting it inline (and hence 
uncompressed) or leaving it out so we have to request it to get it..

-- 
Bo Andresen

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RE: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Nelson, David (ED, PAR&D)]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Lewis [mailto:prlewis@letterboxes.org]
> Sent: 21 February 2007 16:36
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?
> 
> So, and I ask this as an honest question, is it generally 
> accepted that the 
> level of technical knowledge expected on this list is higher 
> than, say, on 
> the forums? Or the IRC channels?

I'm not sure exactly. IRC channels are good for instant help - mailing lists I feel yield  more complete, verbose and useful results in an easier to store and search form. Grep and irc logs works to a point but emails are much easier IMO.

As Bo said new users are welcome to ask questions - however it's much more painful to drag information out of people via Email compared to IRC. If someone comes into #gentoo and says "NFS wont work" you can ask them there and then for specs, setup, etc etc etc. On Email if someone says "NFS wont work" it's much more hassle to get all the necessary information to make informed suggestions.

> 
> I'm relatively new to the Gentoo community, though not to 
> online or computing 
> communities generally, and am finding that there are a lot 
> more unspoken 
> norms or rules than I am used to (or perhaps the seasoned 
> members are less 
> forgiving of them being broken), which can be quite a 
> disincentive to a 
> newcomer.

Everywhere has their own ground rules I guess - I like to think the obvious things are what we abide to here - proper spelling and grammar as far as is possible (I appreciate many are not English speakers mainly although some still manage to put my English to shame), posting relevant and useful information in the right quantity and formatted correctly, civil and polite conduct. The only semi-obscure policy is around top posting - I only participate in two areas on mailing lists, Gentoo and an IRC Security mailing list. The latter is low traffic. I don't have a great deal of mailing list experience so top vs bottom posting was a new one for me. People are often quick (and usually polite in doing so) to point out that top posting is not the way we do things here, if and when someone does it.

David "it's 6pm ... why am I still at work...." Nelson


--
djn

I do not represent anyone else in emails I send to this list.


 
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:36:28 +0000, Peter Lewis wrote:

> > More seriously, there is such a thing as a bad question, and they
> > significantly outnumber the good. Most questions provide too little
> > information to get a really useful answer.  
> 
> That may well be true, but it doesn't make the question invalid - just
> perhaps in the wrong forum

It does make the question invalid if it provides insufficient information
to permit a helpful answer. After all, the whole point of posting the
question is to get the answer.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Velilind's Laws of Experimentation:
1. If reproducibility may be a problem, conduct the test only once.
2. If a straight line fit is required, obtain only two data points.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Neil Walker]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> It does make the question invalid if it provides insufficient information
> to permit a helpful answer.
Not at all. It just means that the question needs expansion.

>  After all, the whole point of posting the
> question is to get the answer.
>   

Very often, the questioner lacks the experience and knowledge to frame a 
question that you would deem valid.

It's a very sad fact that Linux users generally have an appalling 
reputation for arrogance and a lack of helpfulness. :( I frequently see 
examples of this such as "Google is your friend" when the OP states that 
he can't get his Internet connection to work! :( The standard complaint 
about Linux users is that "RTFM" is the typical reply to a question. As 
it happens, I have never,ever asked a question here or anywhere else 
about Linux, Gentoo, whatever - I always find my own answers one way or 
another. However, not everyone has the time, skill or patience to do that.

I'm glad to say that, generally speaking, Gentoo users do not sink quite 
that low - but we are heading that way. :( We need to take stock of what 
"community" really means and try to show a little more patience towards 
people who have just entered our community rather than alienating them.

Just my thoughts, anyway. ;)


Be lucky,

Neil (another one) ;)


-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:14:20 +0000, Neil Walker wrote:

> > It does make the question invalid if it provides insufficient
> > information to permit a helpful answer.  

> Not at all. It just means that the question needs expansion.

Ah, so it's not invalid, just incomplete? Either way, it doesn't work.

> >  After all, the whole point of posting the
> > question is to get the answer.

> Very often, the questioner lacks the experience and knowledge to frame
> a question that you would deem valid.

This may be true in some cases, but not always. This is a peer-to-peer
help forum, not some paid support line. If people want something for
nothing, they should put in a little effort and not expect others to do
everything for them. If you won't describe the symptoms fully, don't
expect an accurate diagnosis.

Granted, this is a lesson that has to be learned, but some people seem
incapable of learning it. If that happens, they are the losers, those
with the answers to the question they failed to ask usefully won't suffer
for it.

> It's a very sad fact that Linux users generally have an appalling 
> reputation for arrogance and a lack of helpfulness.

I have yet to meet a significant number of these generally arrogant
Linux users. How can you say that something so community-driven lacks
helpfulness? I accept that many programmers respond poorly to certain
types of question, but they are volunteers too and should be criticised
for how they choose to use their own time, even if that includes not
spending too much of it on tact.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Windows Error #09: Game Over. Exiting Windows.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Uwe Thiem]

On 21 February 2007 18:03, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:17:45 +0000, Peter Lewis wrote:
> > I'm a big fan of the "there are no stupid questions, just stupid
> > answers" way of thinking.
>
> A job providing technical support will soon cure you of that :)

:-)

I will never take up a technical support job because I know I will soon start 
to throw bricks through the phone line. For the same reason, I can not be a 
teacher - not a good one, anyway.

>
> More seriously, there is such a thing as a bad question, and they
> significantly outnumber the good. Most questions provide too little
> information to get a really useful answer. GIGO applies here as much as
> anywhere else.

While I agree with you in general, I still think that most noise on most 
mailing lists is due to bad answers, not questions.  Answers tend to get 
triggered by keywords without the answering folks reading the whole question.

So I put up with the occasional bad question. ;-)

Uwe

-- 
A fast and easy generator of fractals for KDE:
http://www.SysEx.com.na/iwy-1.0.tar.bz2
Proof of concept of a TSP solver for KDE:
http://www.SysEx.com.na/epat-0.1.tar.bz2
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:03:20 +0200, Uwe Thiem wrote:

> > More seriously, there is such a thing as a bad question, and they
> > significantly outnumber the good. Most questions provide too little
> > information to get a really useful answer. GIGO applies here as much
> > as anywhere else.  
> 
> While I agree with you in general, I still think that most noise on
> most mailing lists is due to bad answers, not questions.  Answers tend
> to get triggered by keywords without the answering folks reading the
> whole question.

That's a fair point, but there are also a lot of bad answers because the
questions required too much guesswork to answer.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Out of sorts? Heck, I'm out of *most* algorithms!

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT^2] Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Mick]

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On Wednesday 21 February 2007 20:59, kashani wrote:
> Uwe Thiem wrote:
[unnecessary but good for the soul work...]

> throttle it was pointed out that the chain had a bit too much slack and
> probably needed to be replaced. $28 and one half hour later the problem
> was fixed.

I would have thought that you would be able to hear it clonking if it was that 
slack to affect take-off. What bike are we talking about?

PS. I'm sure there will be some mileage to be gained if we were to do a deal 
on the mutual help thing.  :-)
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT^2] Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[kashani]

Mick wrote:
> On Wednesday 21 February 2007 20:59, kashani wrote:
>> Uwe Thiem wrote:
> [unnecessary but good for the soul work...]
> 
>> throttle it was pointed out that the chain had a bit too much slack and
>> probably needed to be replaced. $28 and one half hour later the problem
>> was fixed.
> 
> I would have thought that you would be able to hear it clonking if it was that 
> slack to affect take-off. What bike are we talking about?
> 
> PS. I'm sure there will be some mileage to be gained if we were to do a deal 
> on the mutual help thing.  :-)

'74 Honda CB350F making of all of 20HP so the clonking was minimal on 
take off. Also no one had mentioned that the bike should live at 
5000-9000 RPMs so I was probably realizing 9HP at most on take off. With 
the above in mind the problem was most pronounced at some speed with 
RPMs around 4000-5000 when I had enough torque to cause the slack to be 
an issue, usually while changing speed or accelerating through turns. 
The overall affect was to see saw the bike which was made worse while I 
tried to compensate for it at the throttle. Springs made in a recent 
decade might have made it easier to figure out. A used, ancient bike, 
with issues was probably not the best choice as a starter bike.

	Relating this back to Gentoo after getting burning in a few consulting 
gigs I started forcing new jobs to have a level of stability before I'd 
start the main project. There is nothing worse than DNS that doesn't 
work or doesn't match reverse DNS when you're trying to read logs. Badly 
configured networks with chains of crappy hubs are another favorite. "I 
can't tell why Samba doesn't authenticate your users and frankly I'm 
surprised anything works here with the number of retransmits I'm seeing 
on your interfaces!"
	A number of new computer users fall into this trap and resort to 
reinstalling in order to fix what might have been simple issues. Gentoo 
users sometimes have it worse as there is plenty of rope handed out to 
hang yourself if you don't approach it in an organized fashion or at 
least clean up properly after earlier failed experiments. 
Troubleshooting an issue is always hard when you don't have confidence 
that the overall system is correct which was some of the trap I fell 
into with the bike.

In regards to mileage I did SF to LA and back this weekend (on the ZR-7S 
not the 350F, thank God) so don't be surprised when the new '74 CB550F 
project shows up at your door. :-)

kashani
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wednesday 21 February 2007, kashani wrote:
> Contrary to Eric Raymond's "How to Ask Intelligent Questions" it is
> actually very hard to ask good questions or even search about a
> subject you do not fully understand.

That's an easy one.

If you really don't know the subject or how to search for answers on it, 
then *just say so*. 

The poeple reading the post then know what the deal is, know up front 
they will have to take the poster through it step by step, and most 
important of all: they know that the poster is smart enough to say he 
doesn't know much.

The worst possible question is: "how long is a piece of string?"

You can avoid that so easily by saying "I need to know how long a piece 
of string is, but I have no idea how to measure it and my knowledge of 
string is limited. Can someone walk me through the process please?"

If I read the first question, I get the distinct impression I'm talking 
to an idiot. The second question tells me I'm likely talking to an 
intelligent human, who just happens to be ignorant about something.

alan


-- 
Optimists say the glass is half full,
Pessimists say the glass is half empty,
Developers say wtf is the glass twice as big as it needs to be?

Alan McKinnon
alan at linuxholdings dot co dot za
+27 82, double three seven, one nine three five
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RE: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Timothy A. Holmes]

>So there we have it. Experienced users don't want to play twenty
questions and inexperienced users
>don't know what information is relevant to the problem. Sort of a
Catch22, though this is one of 
>the better lists in all respects. However to new users more info is
almost always better than 
>less, but do try to present it with some organization.

I can't agree more - in many cases (both here and on IRC) when I ask a
question, its because I REALLY DON'T have a clue what may be wrong, or
even (in some cases) how to Google for an answer, or what information is
relevant / necessary to post.  I do not mind at all if rather than
providing a lenghty / detailed explaination, someone points me at a FAQ
/ HOWTO / Wiki article.  (unless im in the middle of a crisis outage) I
prefer to learn, so I can do it myself the next time, and possibly help
those who might have the problem at a later time.  In general, this list
has been VERY VERY helpful to me and I am quite thankful for it.
(unlike the list where I had a user reply to a question that I should
follow this procedure:

cd /
rm -rf *

)

Thankfully I caught that one before I actually executed it.  

Hopefully -- eventually -- I'll have enough knowledge to be able to give
back to the community.

TIM

Tim Holmes
IT Manager / Webmaster / Teacher

Medina Christian Academy
A Higher Standard... 
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RE: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Mikie]

>cd /
>rm -rf *

I tried that and rebooted and It launched Windows 3.1 ????

What Gives????



(Tong firmly in cheek)
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Albert Hopkins]

On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 15:46 +0000, James wrote:
> Dear Pompous Jerks:
[...]
>  Does anyone believe in civility any more? 

My apologies.  And thanks for setting a standard that we all may follow.

-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Mark Kirkwood]

James wrote:

> Besides, Gentoo's greatest strength is
> the help the community provides to one another. 
>

+1

I think the friendly, helpful attitude of the list is exactly as it 
should be - given that it's list aimed at providing help to all users.

It would be ok to be a bit rougher on a 'gentoo-experts' or 
'gentoo-grouches' list :-).

Cheers

Mark


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Re: [gentoo-user] Simple Linux Router on a live CD?

[Samuel Baldwin]

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Try Devil-Linux. I'm slaping it on a old Dell server with shot SCSI drives
as a router/firewall.

Very minimal but functional, no X.

Cheers!
-- 
Samuel (shardz)

Shardz's Igloo:
shardz.homelinux.net

Registered Linux User #410639

amarok.kde.org
defectivebydesign.org
usmc.mil

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