[gentoo-user] Back to openrc from systemd

[gentoo-user] Back to openrc from systemd

[João Matos]

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Hi list,

do you know some guide to switch form systemd to openrc, or keep both? I
googled and I didn't find.

The motivation is that I'm studing many server stuff, and I'm tired of
search for alternatives to systemd (that is really good). I also set up
some servers, using openrc on them, so, sometimes I like to reproduce the
configuration o my machine.

If possible, I prefer to keep both. If not, I'll switch back to openrc.

I've enable the openrc user flag, updated the system, I created a grub
entrace, and everything seems to work pretty well on openrc, but I cant
start the X. "no screens found", but dbus, udev and consolekit are started
without error.

Everything is working with systemd.

Thank you,

-- 
João de Matos
Linux User #461527
Graduando em Engenharia de Computação 2005.1
UEFS - Universidade Estadual de Feira de Santana

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Re: [gentoo-user] Back to openrc from systemd

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 7:45 PM, João Matos <jaoneto@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi list,
>
> do you know some guide to switch form systemd to openrc, or keep both? I
> googled and I didn't find.
>
> The motivation is that I'm studing many server stuff, and I'm tired of
> search for alternatives to systemd (that is really good). I also set up some
> servers, using openrc on them, so, sometimes I like to reproduce the
> configuration o my machine.
>
> If possible, I prefer to keep both. If not, I'll switch back to openrc.
>
> I've enable the openrc user flag, updated the system, I created a grub
> entrace, and everything seems to work pretty well on openrc, but I cant
> start the X. "no screens found", but dbus, udev and consolekit are started
> without error.
>
> Everything is working with systemd.

For "server stuff", you should have no problem. If the machine where
you want to have both systemd and OpenRC also works as a desktop
workstation, right now that is not possible; there are several desktop
packages that cannot decide at run time if they use systemd (actually,
logind) or ConsoleKit (polkit being the most obvious).

So you'll need to remove the systemd USE flag, add the consolekit one,
and recompile the necessary packages to get back to a systemd-less
desktop. Be aware that ConsoleKit is basically dead; it has no
upstream, no new features are being developed for it, and I don't
think even basic security bugs are actively fixed. Everything that
depended on  ConsoleKit has switched or is considering switching to
logind, which right now is provided only by systemd (Canonical is
working in an alternative implementation, and I believe some *BSD guys
were also looking into the matter).

When the logind alternative implementations are ready, maybe it will
be possible to again boot to both OpenRC and systemd with the same
binaries; right now is not possible.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

[gentoo-user] Re: Back to openrc from systemd

[Nuno Silva]

On 2013-03-22, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 7:45 PM, João Matos <jaoneto@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi list,
>>
>> do you know some guide to switch form systemd to openrc, or keep both? I
>> googled and I didn't find.
>>
>> The motivation is that I'm studing many server stuff, and I'm tired of
>> search for alternatives to systemd (that is really good). I also set up some
>> servers, using openrc on them, so, sometimes I like to reproduce the
>> configuration o my machine.
>>
>> If possible, I prefer to keep both. If not, I'll switch back to openrc.
>>
>> I've enable the openrc user flag, updated the system, I created a grub
>> entrace, and everything seems to work pretty well on openrc, but I cant
>> start the X. "no screens found", but dbus, udev and consolekit are started
>> without error.
>>
>> Everything is working with systemd.
>
> For "server stuff", you should have no problem. If the machine where
> you want to have both systemd and OpenRC also works as a desktop
> workstation, right now that is not possible; there are several desktop
> packages that cannot decide at run time if they use systemd (actually,
> logind) or ConsoleKit (polkit being the most obvious).

Are these packages essential or the like? I don't think my desktop
systems have dependencies either on systemd or polkit/consolekit.

What is logind used for?

> So you'll need to remove the systemd USE flag, add the consolekit one,
> and recompile the necessary packages to get back to a systemd-less
> desktop. Be aware that ConsoleKit is basically dead; it has no
> upstream, no new features are being developed for it, and I don't
> think even basic security bugs are actively fixed. Everything that
> depended on  ConsoleKit has switched or is considering switching to
> logind, which right now is provided only by systemd (Canonical is
> working in an alternative implementation, and I believe some *BSD guys
> were also looking into the matter).
>
> When the logind alternative implementations are ready, maybe it will
> be possible to again boot to both OpenRC and systemd with the same
> binaries; right now is not possible.
>
> Regards.

-- 
Nuno Silva (aka njsg)
http://njsg.sdf-eu.org/

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Back to openrc from systemd

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 4:09 AM, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@ist.utl.pt> wrote:
> On 2013-03-22, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 7:45 PM, João Matos <jaoneto@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi list,
>>>
>>> do you know some guide to switch form systemd to openrc, or keep both? I
>>> googled and I didn't find.
>>>
>>> The motivation is that I'm studing many server stuff, and I'm tired of
>>> search for alternatives to systemd (that is really good). I also set up some
>>> servers, using openrc on them, so, sometimes I like to reproduce the
>>> configuration o my machine.
>>>
>>> If possible, I prefer to keep both. If not, I'll switch back to openrc.
>>>
>>> I've enable the openrc user flag, updated the system, I created a grub
>>> entrace, and everything seems to work pretty well on openrc, but I cant
>>> start the X. "no screens found", but dbus, udev and consolekit are started
>>> without error.
>>>
>>> Everything is working with systemd.
>>
>> For "server stuff", you should have no problem. If the machine where
>> you want to have both systemd and OpenRC also works as a desktop
>> workstation, right now that is not possible; there are several desktop
>> packages that cannot decide at run time if they use systemd (actually,
>> logind) or ConsoleKit (polkit being the most obvious).
>
> Are these packages essential or the like? I don't think my desktop
> systems have dependencies either on systemd or polkit/consolekit.

If you don't need user session monitoring for anything (which is what
ConsoleKit and logind provides), nor interactive privilege granting
(which is what polkit provides), then I believe you will have no
problems switching OpenRC and systemd withouth needing to recompile
anything. However, that means no upower and no udisks at least; GNOME
cannot run without any of those. XFCE needs them if the udev USE flag
is enabled, which is enabled by default in Gentoo desktop profiles,
and in KDE the three of them are optional dependencies turned on by
default. You can turn them of in XFCE and KDE, but you kinda lose
functionality without them.

> What is logind used for?

User session monitoring, as ConsoleKit did, only better:

http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/logind

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

[gentoo-user] Re: Back to openrc from systemd

[Nuno Silva]

On 2013-03-22, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 4:09 AM, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@ist.utl.pt> wrote:
>> On 2013-03-22, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 7:45 PM, João Matos <jaoneto@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi list,
>>>>
>>>> do you know some guide to switch form systemd to openrc, or keep both? I
>>>> googled and I didn't find.
>>>>
>>>> The motivation is that I'm studing many server stuff, and I'm tired of
>>>> search for alternatives to systemd (that is really good). I also
>>>> set up some
>>>> servers, using openrc on them, so, sometimes I like to reproduce the
>>>> configuration o my machine.
>>>>
>>>> If possible, I prefer to keep both. If not, I'll switch back to openrc.
>>>>
>>>> I've enable the openrc user flag, updated the system, I created a grub
>>>> entrace, and everything seems to work pretty well on openrc, but I cant
>>>> start the X. "no screens found", but dbus, udev and consolekit are started
>>>> without error.
>>>>
>>>> Everything is working with systemd.
>>>
>>> For "server stuff", you should have no problem. If the machine where
>>> you want to have both systemd and OpenRC also works as a desktop
>>> workstation, right now that is not possible; there are several desktop
>>> packages that cannot decide at run time if they use systemd (actually,
>>> logind) or ConsoleKit (polkit being the most obvious).
>>
>> Are these packages essential or the like? I don't think my desktop
>> systems have dependencies either on systemd or polkit/consolekit.
>
> If you don't need user session monitoring for anything (which is what
> ConsoleKit and logind provides), nor interactive privilege granting
> (which is what polkit provides), then I believe you will have no

Thanks. Now *that* is what I call explaining something in a nutshell :-)

> problems switching OpenRC and systemd withouth needing to recompile
> anything. However, that means no upower and no udisks at least; GNOME
> cannot run without any of those. XFCE needs them if the udev USE flag
> is enabled, which is enabled by default in Gentoo desktop profiles,
> and in KDE the three of them are optional dependencies turned on by
> default. You can turn them of in XFCE and KDE, but you kinda lose
> functionality without them.

I do indeed remember having to fight the KDE use flags so that I could
pull kdelibs without pulling the whole set of u* things someone decided
that were required for a desktop environment (the fun thing being that I
wasn't even using KDE as a DE).

But I hope you don't mean the GNOME *libs* will be requiring
logind/Consolekit/... in the near future? That would cause me some
trouble, as I rely on evince a lot.

>> What is logind used for?
>
> User session monitoring, as ConsoleKit did, only better:
>
> http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/logind
>
> Regards.

-- 
Nuno Silva (aka njsg)
http://njsg.sdf-eu.org/

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Back to openrc from systemd

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 10:54 AM, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@ist.utl.pt> wrote:
> On 2013-03-22, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 4:09 AM, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@ist.utl.pt> wrote:
>>> On 2013-03-22, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 7:45 PM, João Matos <jaoneto@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi list,
>>>>>
>>>>> do you know some guide to switch form systemd to openrc, or keep both? I
>>>>> googled and I didn't find.
>>>>>
>>>>> The motivation is that I'm studing many server stuff, and I'm tired of
>>>>> search for alternatives to systemd (that is really good). I also
>>>>> set up some
>>>>> servers, using openrc on them, so, sometimes I like to reproduce the
>>>>> configuration o my machine.
>>>>>
>>>>> If possible, I prefer to keep both. If not, I'll switch back to openrc.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've enable the openrc user flag, updated the system, I created a grub
>>>>> entrace, and everything seems to work pretty well on openrc, but I cant
>>>>> start the X. "no screens found", but dbus, udev and consolekit are started
>>>>> without error.
>>>>>
>>>>> Everything is working with systemd.
>>>>
>>>> For "server stuff", you should have no problem. If the machine where
>>>> you want to have both systemd and OpenRC also works as a desktop
>>>> workstation, right now that is not possible; there are several desktop
>>>> packages that cannot decide at run time if they use systemd (actually,
>>>> logind) or ConsoleKit (polkit being the most obvious).
>>>
>>> Are these packages essential or the like? I don't think my desktop
>>> systems have dependencies either on systemd or polkit/consolekit.
>>
>> If you don't need user session monitoring for anything (which is what
>> ConsoleKit and logind provides), nor interactive privilege granting
>> (which is what polkit provides), then I believe you will have no
>
> Thanks. Now *that* is what I call explaining something in a nutshell :-)
>
>> problems switching OpenRC and systemd withouth needing to recompile
>> anything. However, that means no upower and no udisks at least; GNOME
>> cannot run without any of those. XFCE needs them if the udev USE flag
>> is enabled, which is enabled by default in Gentoo desktop profiles,
>> and in KDE the three of them are optional dependencies turned on by
>> default. You can turn them of in XFCE and KDE, but you kinda lose
>> functionality without them.
>
> I do indeed remember having to fight the KDE use flags so that I could
> pull kdelibs without pulling the whole set of u* things someone decided
> that were required for a desktop environment (the fun thing being that I
> wasn't even using KDE as a DE).
>
> But I hope you don't mean the GNOME *libs* will be requiring
> logind/Consolekit/... in the near future? That would cause me some
> trouble, as I rely on evince a lot.

No, only the core desktop, AFAIK.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [Bulk] [gentoo-user] Re: Back to openrc from systemd

[Kevin Chadwick]

> > If you don't need user session monitoring for anything (which is what
> > ConsoleKit and logind provides), nor interactive privilege granting
> > (which is what polkit provides), then I believe you will have no  
> 
> Thanks. Now *that* is what I call explaining something in a nutshell :-)
> 
> > problems switching OpenRC and systemd withouth needing to recompile
> > anything. However, that means no upower and no udisks at least; GNOME
> > cannot run without any of those. XFCE needs them if the udev USE flag
> > is enabled, which is enabled by default in Gentoo desktop profiles,
> > and in KDE the three of them are optional dependencies turned on by
> > default. You can turn them of in XFCE and KDE, but you kinda lose
> > functionality without them.  
> 
> I do indeed remember having to fight the KDE use flags so that I could
> pull kdelibs without pulling the whole set of u* things someone decided
> that were required for a desktop environment (the fun thing being that I
> wasn't even using KDE as a DE).
> 
> But I hope you don't mean the GNOME *libs* will be requiring
> logind/Consolekit/... in the near future? That would cause me some
> trouble, as I rely on evince a lot.

A good overview though I don't agree with "If you don't 'need'"

Did your desktop really fail to run at all?

Why are dependencies suddenly getting a lot worse (ignoring konquerorFM
without kde) when for so long dependencies were understood to be a big
problem that must be fixed. It can only be bad design if a desktop does
not work at all because < 1% of the functionality is missing and may
well have been replaced in every case above by alternative and in some
cases superior (permissions) that may override others (sessions you
don't use), choices of functionality.

Is it really a freedesktop when almost all the rest are free-er?

-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
_______________________________________________________________________

[gentoo-user] Re: [Bulk] Re: Back to openrc from systemd

[Nuno Silva]

On 2013-03-22, Kevin Chadwick wrote:

>> > If you don't need user session monitoring for anything (which is what
>> > ConsoleKit and logind provides), nor interactive privilege granting
>> > (which is what polkit provides), then I believe you will have no  
>> 
>> Thanks. Now *that* is what I call explaining something in a nutshell :-)
>> 
>> > problems switching OpenRC and systemd withouth needing to recompile
>> > anything. However, that means no upower and no udisks at least; GNOME
>> > cannot run without any of those. XFCE needs them if the udev USE flag
>> > is enabled, which is enabled by default in Gentoo desktop profiles,
>> > and in KDE the three of them are optional dependencies turned on by
>> > default. You can turn them of in XFCE and KDE, but you kinda lose
>> > functionality without them.  
>> 
>> I do indeed remember having to fight the KDE use flags so that I could
>> pull kdelibs without pulling the whole set of u* things someone decided
>> that were required for a desktop environment (the fun thing being that I
>> wasn't even using KDE as a DE).
>> 
>> But I hope you don't mean the GNOME *libs* will be requiring
>> logind/Consolekit/... in the near future? That would cause me some
>> trouble, as I rely on evince a lot.
>
> A good overview though I don't agree with "If you don't 'need'"
>
> Did your desktop really fail to run at all?

I don't need any of this u* or other things for my desktop computer to
work. Maybe this is related to the fact that I don't run a desktop
environment, even if I use linux for desktop computing and run X.

> Why are dependencies suddenly getting a lot worse (ignoring konquerorFM
> without kde) when for so long dependencies were understood to be a big
> problem that must be fixed. It can only be bad design if a desktop does
> not work at all because < 1% of the functionality is missing and may
> well have been replaced in every case above by alternative and in some
> cases superior (permissions) that may override others (sessions you
> don't use), choices of functionality.

Bad design, bad choices by developers, people who don't want to accept
binary distros aren't the only thing around, and people who don't have a
taste for simplicity.

> Is it really a freedesktop when almost all the rest are free-er?

freedesktop seems to be doing a good job at creating standards where
there were no standards, the problem is that (IMHO) they seem to be
coming up with bad standards to fill the gap (see clipboard/selection
handling), and sometimes it is actually good to have things done in
different ways.

-- 
Nuno Silva (aka njsg)
http://njsg.sdf-eu.org/

Re: [Bulk] [gentoo-user] Re: [Bulk] Re: Back to openrc from systemd

[Kevin Chadwick]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 14:54:23 +0200
<nunojsilva@ist.utl.pt> (Nuno Silva) wrote:

> > A good overview though I don't agree with "If you don't 'need'"
> >
> > Did your desktop really fail to run at all?  
> 
> I don't need any of this u* or other things for my desktop computer to
> work. Maybe this is related to the fact that I don't run a desktop
> environment, even if I use linux for desktop computing and run X.

I'd be interested in what happens if all the consolekit and logind
files are removed. Perhaps the reverse, systemd breaking and
Openrc working?