From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <gentoo-user+bounces-196507-garchives=archives.gentoo.org@lists.gentoo.org>
Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80])
	(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5ADEF1392E8
	for <garchives@archives.gentoo.org>; Sun, 25 Jul 2021 14:21:10 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D5B06E0D68;
	Sun, 25 Jul 2021 14:21:03 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from mail-ot1-x336.google.com (mail-ot1-x336.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::336])
	(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 824FBE0D47
	for <gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org>; Sun, 25 Jul 2021 14:21:02 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-ot1-x336.google.com with SMTP id 48-20020a9d0bb30000b02904cd671b911bso7289773oth.1
        for <gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org>; Sun, 25 Jul 2021 07:21:02 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=20161025;
        h=subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date
         :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=ipEciA3IL8u8MJ4RW+g66IH7SBYA4Fv06dCaAGNSZOc=;
        b=DFksc9eEG+jPFtQGI/yWEjn6sNf2yy7EL7/AGSFVXLxoqMT6mccsCw3Vm7fFI8Ziji
         IM48uyYzXwP/WOOlBOhTrEDvRCr2uRtcIKEsRlzg7jVKZXsiGoy1M5kVKcHFoptzELzU
         bJ3iVErdqja6w3onyjg9rQPfnZ3zJswkYQGpPAhP4J/R8O/ouMgX0fy+6tJQetVHj5a7
         L0YP9harseyU4EvWSVMf2uBcVU8mtqoNs6HDYvKlM2TgvZz+bfitTHSfV9T/dDzxK/vG
         5/jor0bT66O9Tb3ibCU0J1lRJ1pO5VYf61fkPNuxlpg/cqGx13+yTpOAWciuPiyM77QU
         Haww==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=1e100.net; s=20161025;
        h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt
         :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=ipEciA3IL8u8MJ4RW+g66IH7SBYA4Fv06dCaAGNSZOc=;
        b=Q1WJeMXDSceii/iHbFsWN4+wmcBKu8sUth27+soKhw9YW3mDMe/fa11DLA83otwDA+
         Ezfl3A/HOwkVadGlz6OnSApUvTU7izcUs2BUEe8AsP8JCclQilE1SrJsH2UN552wfIjq
         Qb05h9YOuyyLc2Fjn3IULXAi/EplYVU9GqaYUg4uS0sQQ6hPWvP1BCLeQOpkh7z1qddO
         MpOL7HUhoMLozNg32UK7IYBHsFMBDb9tYMpCQOCMh/8bpQDVxFxuJkLziRWAxjf137RY
         Mj4OciXo6KauBondKQM78YMgGXudOi3RnlJ+0G9auBUl6UPUmAgA7B0ePH/CpEIey5Ve
         2puA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533EX6Y+q5yUq22VzbA8x9+XMTj8jMVNe+Ay23gI1QIdUXkwXits
	ybXq0EWUEaKYwqYv1UTiwWE=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzS8fYmo7dZDnDrwlOfWwrAxiLVhTHBYDu+HYPDLjLYKNgX9qa7hmfGeZhp1MrD57fLApoG/g==
X-Received: by 2002:a9d:75d4:: with SMTP id c20mr8702237otl.85.1627222861694;
        Sun, 25 Jul 2021 07:21:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.0.100] (adsl-074-188-240-053.sip.asm.bellsouth.net. [74.188.240.53])
        by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f3sm7033729otc.49.2021.07.25.07.21.00
        (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128);
        Sun, 25 Jul 2021 07:21:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] --depclean wants to remove openrc. Yikes!
To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
References: <20210721221350.4d14da7f@ventiloplattform.tastytea.de>
 <20210721212705.23179178@digimed.co.uk> <YPwZ/mRRBpUjJu2R@ACM>
 <CAGfcS_mAJ+CizXPV4DX=QaPqw0wDRDqCxrgwbv=7LXvNqaM8mw@mail.gmail.com>
 <YPwn1XU7vI62EJ7t@ACM>
 <CAGfcS_=4smiLY6DwtHNwUR2Y9futmi-Xcz1N03kddntPUvjJ5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <YPx/rhG22TbWmhEL@ACM> <20210725100344.34490089@digimed.co.uk>
 <YP1PXBFeg3AoCgjR@ACM> <60FD5869.2050406@youngman.org.uk>
 <YP1qktH3+/mlp3ti@ACM>
From: Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com>
Openpgp: preference=signencrypt
Autocrypt: addr=rdalek1967@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata=
 mQINBFxc7MgBEAC+zrgEdqJJiDe/UDAB+ScmferXWfJTVjbVT2T4DQ7jiLrgP9aNUo1HioNF
 mrU3JPOCR32gvZyTbY1+niO5+VSo/+pSqQ785h6ZDj1klMkrg6tEzGnf2MNBpBj4houZwxQ+
 WDKKTg2M9F+lv8wTIdR/JQn+hSviktLMtrghQlyLhpapsLXWLA6gMFebpQYwxUwemvan8ddX
 lQvJe9FGyFYvBi0dp1gl10F2O+DVZJxvX8xkX+yImVlhVJiC31gXHRcj+Qlo7gprlU7TIieF
 Uow6/ZvYKJ26pztVdFCg5w0rMJkF/x8Zd4A6wnuptiAPmWaQ1+YKgYDonbDUgwqFSx5/lN5z
 DGZ4LlioxeUTTPVvZsqBIeDz6jNFA583OYbo1/S26dqrvTFf2DKlsvoDpVfAhNlwJPjoixs0
 X3FNqPv+M10n4kq5Iz7Q9E3O4s/nfFIYGocEslVka7zZPkXSaHbsn+KJlY8XV6qxtCEdh0/V
 XX1+1aU2J74M0JikWhpwxTZ1dP5aOyWSPPEgFFIRW6xwwC02SoRH9a7mggfGYp/YjPlONNaT
 SCL8sgRfvmq3D0XTbLyTjSbExxkfKDmbePQagawDE3TlI/oivHf1JaAcbwMb3LZuU4TGcOIl
 5D+x7q0MUIeCop0ZFOwAnqW3AVVNvsBkv2KN+IHJryWAf0/iMQARAQABtBtEYWxlIDxyZGFs
 ZWsxOTY3QGdtYWlsLmNvbT6JAk4EEwEIADgWIQTZ7suruPBaS60bCYXvEM/XWu+ZnAUCXFzs
 yAIbIwULCQgHAgYVCgkICwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRDvEM/XWu+ZnN+7D/4/1dNG4aCz0+v+
 0dcjV5tY1feYEWCdHKyDzxWBxlCpd/0NPRQeNY4VMjbCl/sq7GkXi/c2SbfWDQ5BQRkkExG1
 pSwuXSIehGok/4fpTi3HDAguRvzdCqlKPt7me05FyiC/WnpY5GOlJ3ruGw2qABv/RmV2q5b/
 tkq7h1y1f16DTNr3/nsj8HzHcrHdXdL4kaYChSOe/dbQR9Stqak7eMyR+iwvrJMNF/CGl70P
 2x5ybsXMDzRVOqNcpa5ZdhEMTVh6+vC1SOmm1BFMF8XCqBEvBbcHWDQmGYTdNCsS/ADm8CBl
 gvjJgLdIsAzoMu4WHQDFnzXAoArqFWgAf53isOS4AWrv29tF9b8Aa1vb7h5JEa+ArcMsA6Gl
 X38+GY6WXXaxKI9n3PTCWu9tPGnRh7mABjnwEosDDqmzw8aTAYECb3avDuGY2rmcjgh4H6RE
 w08d63j1T4d5J9wlm4TGtW/VHgbUFkATEdH3Acl/EjFiyqTiX7p8kU6Reu5enIkogA93xoQh
 Rmy7ZiST/5LN+ZkaOdyjIw0L+5KalslN9SKt809YxgJ6kPo657LNTFPiFvFA46/SEWcBYrzq
 Xk0wEW0gBRWf+BqN0qRhU0/EQ+QfRdLLFg2xtUePwlheYLXxfyDLrdCCOLWYpkzbjCZHLS4u
 69smbvR9S9KBDNzJybxEWrkCDQRcXOzIARAA5IGRWTqaM44IJgBYghZg2fGj0Am7KWPhE7V7
 T/EEe7vVSUEFqHtlHzI4ZK6Q0AZ9uAEjE8IJIQ7KoTjzNqAtabP0vp3s0szgtJlsZ+8vGKlQ
 my7fvzSrdoQL0Xn7CEwJYFXJ1EMUcYIQeoHG1cUAaXx73k9BFbjwjnUeMrqlV/ZovQlg7duW
 nESfQ7HZu5NrtYyY3jPMUouxiO9WQPh+IHxZbt1absF2VcvRAymD32RxGvMPbw6ChMRD/p9O
 4PH7M5rXaxr78NXQX9E48vrI00f1cYb9NSN1HnSV8cW3jKObVjdBk6jPQwrMvdpgdQhUB9aZ
 HS/9mC9mmAgiXKyCpzXe7FPB6QznSfn4GIaC/luy1e6SLUkJhRK/niB+gq+Mfxg2zXNuDUTI
 cMGmpDCp3kgUoorkaltk8RW09io95BkXrGhcDNuSGZfAParBc7RXyYpbIcax8St7tEAd2oFh
 4seYOPUlzuhGrPpqR/91wrFc4E1260GKauSr4UhMJv6tygBwyC0mmBMKi+ZXw6ZdZxA5fg7y
 35P3TILjznCXXTDgRHq9A3NknKRMcgFacX6eIhANkMFo6oJVjuEgy1dvu1wFfDq7c+i8GAHu
 L4pYzyXYu6PporlNNU0xSwdVgzM/uuK0lt+UxCimgC+YR3IezgDcbfudb7h9dGIwL+bbPL0A
 EQEAAYkCNgQYAQgAIBYhBNnuy6u48FpLrRsJhe8Qz9da75mcBQJcXOzIAhsMAAoJEO8Qz9da
 75mcXZ4P/1YXgWDZek7mhzrf6uaQzMxa92P89HeWz4PlgB/32symeEFAV04WazzBZffI8AYY
 rGA1Xmu/2VaB9+FOODyKhUWBc2UL0NRWBk6POwboyTdKlclmpixaN9zLcBt0YLejoRfN1B/5
 aQf9/lUDZMnAiCyz0FgeqEMUshldmwWC35RqnjrCbbuk2vIqSH6BLDIXU6jQrLHE1DF0ai41
 wLtQFAFXPhn45n0ZwYhVs4Z32z4sjXrIvgBgCaXa4HM+L1Klne0KiNM8ReFTTpTE0SgyDOSZ
 O3MOa2n77i6JbVtsbiFYnNeP3J9S/l3jevGpZEtNQOKrIm1MW8jGuHWtsDeMkT/mCcSodlkt
 PxIo+mMK9GpGvG2hW80LiohqNfUbNwAmr3blOYY4URPXPRnEnPs4pmTmL5owjw2dkg145i9I
 D42Tq+XZ6YtWt3SGzGbAYow6XwTwZ5NFAzV9UQuCGrDw4KWan6O6Z+VIYWsn0UMZlu1Obxna
 aocofkaUCbISK26kImuD1aA8juSHC18Qv1xUage6/UakbSxyDtACqt6hOVFKX3IA59ApdNRT
 +2x3iCmlvF9MJsGgFq6IpqL+Fk7iWV8Kjbz0wQOId6N9+JdQh3LrLaS7a1PowUm1z9DK5/O0
 Yg+gpDnEOOFI7WM5u7a7FSM2Z/LXGVwel/0eWvLk9tN6
Message-ID: <877370fd-e537-795a-bb23-87889b051cc8@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 09:20:59 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101
 Firefox/60.0 SeaMonkey/2.53.8
Precedence: bulk
List-Post: <mailto:gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gentoo-user+help@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gentoo-user+unsubscribe@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:gentoo-user+subscribe@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail <gentoo-user.gentoo.org>
X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <YP1qktH3+/mlp3ti@ACM>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Archives-Salt: 37f19c7e-d4a6-4913-81f3-e28bb9372770
X-Archives-Hash: c863e09ef02f5ace8112e55c7c61965b

Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> Hello, Wol.
>
> On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 13:26:17 +0100, Wols Lists wrote:
>> On 25/07/21 12:47, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>>>> They are, @system is a set of packages and nothing it it will be
>>>>> depcleaned. However, openrc is not part of @system, the virtual is.
>>> Ah, that's it.  So we have critical system packages which aren't part of
>>> @system.  I think openrc is a critical system package.
>> Well, it's not installed on my new system. I doubt it's installed on any
>> new-ish gentoo-gnome systems. So openrc itself can't be critical.
> Must you be so objectionably pedantic?  It is surely clear that I was
> using "openrc" as a metasyntactic variable for "the current init
> system".  If it wasn't, apologies.
>
>> It may be critical for *your* system ... :-)
> Just as systemd is for your system.  If you'd installed daemontools you
> would also have come within a keystroke of destroying your system, just
> as I did, on attempting emerge --depclean.  You would have received no
> warning of any kind on installing the package, and there would be no
> documentation brought to your attention about the potential catastrophe.
>

Since it had a package left that satisfies the virtual, it shouldn't
warn you.  I don't recall emerge/portage ever warning about removing a
unneeded package other than the warning when you run --depclean and it
first starts.  As said before, this is really expected behavior. 

>> Let's rephrase it - "openrc is one of the (optional) packages that
>> satisfied a critical dependency".
> If you must.
>
>> Your problem is caused because you have explicitly installed an
>> alternate package that satisfies the same critical dependency.
> No, my problem is caused by Gentoo allowing its package system, without
> me doing anything strange, to bring my system to within a single
> keystroke of destruction.  That is a bug in any circumstance.  All you
> and most of the others have done is pointed out the mechanisms by which
> this happened, with the implicit assumption that because that's what
> they do, they must be right.  They're not at all right.
>
> Nobody here has made any suggestions as to how this situation might be
> prevented in the future, not just for me, but for the next user who
> needs daemontools.
>
>> Cheers,
>> Wol


But the problem started when you installed a package outside of
emerge/portage.  As I pointed out earlier, since you installed a package
outside of emerge/portage's knowledge, how do you expect it to know you
need both packages?  It's also why I suggested to either create a ebuild
or add the packages your mail program depends on to the world file. 
Neil came up with what I think is a better solution of using sets.  It
sounds like what he is doing so it must work well enough.

What we are saying is this.  When you install a package outside
emerge/portage's knowledge, you have to manage the things it depends on
and the problems that creates.  In your case, daemontools satisfied the
virtual and emerge/portage wanted to remove openrc but it did so because
you installed another package that satisfies that virtual.  If you
hadn't installed the other package that your mail program needs, that
would not have happened.  So, you actually created the conditions that
made emerge/portage think it was OK to remove the package openrc. 
Again, emerge/portage doesn't know you have your mail program installed
or what it depends on.  It has no idea why you need BOTH daemontools and
openrc installed.  Luckily for you, one isn't a blocker for the other or
that is a whole new can of worms.  Also luckily you caught it was about
to remove it as well. 

The lesson from this, when you install a package outside of
emerge/portage and use emerge/portage to install packages it depends on,
you have to be careful of the problems it creates.  You can't expect
emerge/portage to understand what you are doing and why. 

Dale

:-)  :-)