[gentoo-user] [OT] Very slow POST process

[gentoo-user] [OT] Very slow POST process

[Michael]

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Over the last 8-9 months I noticed an old Lenovo G505s laptop is spending a 
long time in the POST process, before eventually the OEM logo shows up on the 
screen.  Last time I timed it, it took 2.5-3.0 minutes.  Normally it would 
only take ~20-30 seconds.  Once the logo shows up the boot process proceeds 
without further delay.

Initially, this delay to POST would happen randomly and rarely.  Now it 
happens every time.

Things I tried:

1. Reflashing the UEFI firmware - it didn't work because it already has the 
latest firmware.

2. Removing the main battery and holding down the power button for 15 seconds, 
hoping to reset the firmware.

3. Leaving the PSU cable connected overnight. 

4. Testing the RAM and HDD.

None of the above improved the situation, or indicated what might be wrong.

I'll reseat the RAM sticks and the HDD next, in case a contact is oxidised, 
but what else could cause this noticeable delay to POST?  A failing RTC CMOS 
battery?

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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Very slow POST process

[Dale]

Michael wrote:
> Over the last 8-9 months I noticed an old Lenovo G505s laptop is spending a 
> long time in the POST process, before eventually the OEM logo shows up on the 
> screen.  Last time I timed it, it took 2.5-3.0 minutes.  Normally it would 
> only take ~20-30 seconds.  Once the logo shows up the boot process proceeds 
> without further delay.
>
> Initially, this delay to POST would happen randomly and rarely.  Now it 
> happens every time.
>
> Things I tried:
>
> 1. Reflashing the UEFI firmware - it didn't work because it already has the 
> latest firmware.
>
> 2. Removing the main battery and holding down the power button for 15 seconds, 
> hoping to reset the firmware.
>
> 3. Leaving the PSU cable connected overnight. 
>
> 4. Testing the RAM and HDD.
>
> None of the above improved the situation, or indicated what might be wrong.
>
> I'll reseat the RAM sticks and the HDD next, in case a contact is oxidised, 
> but what else could cause this noticeable delay to POST?  A failing RTC CMOS 
> battery?


I recently had this issue as well on my 770T NAS box.  I ordered some
video cards and once I replaced the video card, it boots in the time it
should every time.  Before that, I tried memtest, checking the CPU was
seated properly and not running hot, checked temps with a IR thingy of
both bridge chips and several other things.  I also replaced the battery
and reset the settings to defaults and then adjusted to my way.  The
only thing that changed the long POST time, changing the video card.  I
might add, I've booted that thing a lot since I changed the video card
and it boots right up each time. 

If you have a built in video system, you stuck.  The only option I can
think of, clean the heat sink/cooler for the CPU and such and see if
that helps any.  If you doing a cold start, couldn't imagine heat being
a issue tho.  If you have a video card that can be changed, might want
to try that.  I've never seen a laptop with one of those tho. 

I hope someone else has a better suggestion. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Very slow POST process

[Michael]

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On Tuesday, 28 November 2023 13:13:55 GMT Dale wrote:
> Michael wrote:
> > Over the last 8-9 months I noticed an old Lenovo G505s laptop is spending
> > a
> > long time in the POST process, before eventually the OEM logo shows up on
> > the screen.  Last time I timed it, it took 2.5-3.0 minutes.  Normally it
> > would only take ~20-30 seconds.  Once the logo shows up the boot process
> > proceeds without further delay.
> > 
> > Initially, this delay to POST would happen randomly and rarely.  Now it
> > happens every time.
> > 
> > Things I tried:
> > 
> > 1. Reflashing the UEFI firmware - it didn't work because it already has
> > the
> > latest firmware.
> > 
> > 2. Removing the main battery and holding down the power button for 15
> > seconds, hoping to reset the firmware.
> > 
> > 3. Leaving the PSU cable connected overnight.
> > 
> > 4. Testing the RAM and HDD.
> > 
> > None of the above improved the situation, or indicated what might be
> > wrong.
> > 
> > I'll reseat the RAM sticks and the HDD next, in case a contact is
> > oxidised,
> > but what else could cause this noticeable delay to POST?  A failing RTC
> > CMOS battery?
> 
> I recently had this issue as well on my 770T NAS box.  I ordered some
> video cards and once I replaced the video card, it boots in the time it
> should every time.  Before that, I tried memtest, checking the CPU was
> seated properly and not running hot, checked temps with a IR thingy of
> both bridge chips and several other things.  I also replaced the battery
> and reset the settings to defaults and then adjusted to my way.  The
> only thing that changed the long POST time, changing the video card.  I
> might add, I've booted that thing a lot since I changed the video card
> and it boots right up each time. 
> 
> If you have a built in video system, you stuck.  The only option I can
> think of, clean the heat sink/cooler for the CPU and such and see if
> that helps any.  If you doing a cold start, couldn't imagine heat being
> a issue tho.  If you have a video card that can be changed, might want
> to try that.  I've never seen a laptop with one of those tho. 
> 
> I hope someone else has a better suggestion. 
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-) 

Thank you Dale, this laptop has both an AMD A10-5750M APU with a Richland 
[Radeon HD 8650G] graphics on the die and a discrete Jet PRO [Radeon R5 M230] 
GPU, working with the radeon kernel driver and the vga_switcheroo.  I can't 
recall if the Radeon chip is soldered or plugged in a socket on the MoBo.  
Until I take off the back cover I won't know for sure.

Perhaps a red herring, but it may be related to graphics:  At some point in 
the summer I connected an external monitor with HDMI to test it.  I then 
switched from both monitors, only the laptop's LCD and then only the external 
monitor and back again before I shut it down.  All worked as expected on a 
Wayland Plasma desktop.  I am not certain, but have the impression the delay 
at POST started getting worse thereafter, although the problem existed 
intermittently for a good 4-5 months before then.  :-/

I hope the GPU is not failing, because I doubt I'll be able to source one of  
these chips, while spending money on a replacement MoBo on flea-bay would not 
be cost effective.

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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Very slow POST process

[Daniel Frey]

On 11/28/23 03:38, Michael wrote:
> Over the last 8-9 months I noticed an old Lenovo G505s laptop is spending a
> long time in the POST process, before eventually the OEM logo shows up on the
> screen.  Last time I timed it, it took 2.5-3.0 minutes.  Normally it would
> only take ~20-30 seconds.  Once the logo shows up the boot process proceeds
> without further delay.
> 
> Initially, this delay to POST would happen randomly and rarely.  Now it
> happens every time.
> 
> Things I tried:
> 
> 1. Reflashing the UEFI firmware - it didn't work because it already has the
> latest firmware.
> 
> 2. Removing the main battery and holding down the power button for 15 seconds,
> hoping to reset the firmware.
> 
> 3. Leaving the PSU cable connected overnight.
> 
> 4. Testing the RAM and HDD.
> 
> None of the above improved the situation, or indicated what might be wrong.
> 
> I'll reseat the RAM sticks and the HDD next, in case a contact is oxidised,
> but what else could cause this noticeable delay to POST?  A failing RTC CMOS
> battery?

We have had a few of these at work and these symptoms were cured by a 
new CMOS battery. The voltage on the battery has likely dipped to 
2.9-3.0 volts; they get unreliable then (i.e. it's dead.) If you leave 
it long enough you'll start getting RTC errors on POST.

I'd try that first, assuming you can still get the CMOS battery for these.

Dan

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Very slow POST process

[Michael]

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On Tuesday, 28 November 2023 15:49:10 GMT Daniel Frey wrote:
> On 11/28/23 03:38, Michael wrote:
> > Over the last 8-9 months I noticed an old Lenovo G505s laptop is spending
> > a
> > long time in the POST process, before eventually the OEM logo shows up on
> > the screen.  Last time I timed it, it took 2.5-3.0 minutes.  Normally it
> > would only take ~20-30 seconds.  Once the logo shows up the boot process
> > proceeds without further delay.
> > 
> > Initially, this delay to POST would happen randomly and rarely.  Now it
> > happens every time.
> > 
> > Things I tried:
> > 
> > 1. Reflashing the UEFI firmware - it didn't work because it already has
> > the
> > latest firmware.
> > 
> > 2. Removing the main battery and holding down the power button for 15
> > seconds, hoping to reset the firmware.
> > 
> > 3. Leaving the PSU cable connected overnight.
> > 
> > 4. Testing the RAM and HDD.
> > 
> > None of the above improved the situation, or indicated what might be
> > wrong.
> > 
> > I'll reseat the RAM sticks and the HDD next, in case a contact is
> > oxidised,
> > but what else could cause this noticeable delay to POST?  A failing RTC
> > CMOS battery?
> 
> We have had a few of these at work and these symptoms were cured by a
> new CMOS battery. The voltage on the battery has likely dipped to
> 2.9-3.0 volts; they get unreliable then (i.e. it's dead.) If you leave
> it long enough you'll start getting RTC errors on POST.
> 
> I'd try that first, assuming you can still get the CMOS battery for these.
> 
> Dan

Thanks Dan, will do.  I was planning to take it apart soon to replace the HDD 
with an SSD, so this would be the first thing to check.  I expect finding a 
replacement unit will be difficult.  Every Lenovo RTC battery seems to have a 
different part number.

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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Very slow POST process

[Wols Lists]

On 29/11/2023 00:16, Michael wrote:
> Thanks Dan, will do.  I was planning to take it apart soon to replace the HDD
> with an SSD, so this would be the first thing to check.  I expect finding a
> replacement unit will be difficult.  Every Lenovo RTC battery seems to have a
> different part number.

I know laptops are different from desktops, but I think every desktop 
mobo I've come across uses a 3032 battery.

See if you can find out what the standard definition of the lenovo 
battery is, hopefully they just use internal part numbers for a totally 
standard item.

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Very slow POST process

[Daniel Frey]

On 11/29/23 00:20, Wols Lists wrote:
> On 29/11/2023 00:16, Michael wrote:
>> Thanks Dan, will do.  I was planning to take it apart soon to replace 
>> the HDD
>> with an SSD, so this would be the first thing to check.  I expect 
>> finding a
>> replacement unit will be difficult.  Every Lenovo RTC battery seems to 
>> have a
>> different part number.
> 
> I know laptops are different from desktops, but I think every desktop 
> mobo I've come across uses a 3032 battery.
> 
> See if you can find out what the standard definition of the lenovo 
> battery is, hopefully they just use internal part numbers for a totally 
> standard item.
> 
> Cheers,
> Wol
> 

Lenovo laptops usually use a small battery pack. Sometimes it's a 2032 
shrinkwrapped, but not always...

-Dan

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Very slow POST process

[Michael]

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On Wednesday 29 November 2023 00:16:11 GMT you wrote:
> On Tuesday, 28 November 2023 15:49:10 GMT Daniel Frey wrote:
> > On 11/28/23 03:38, Michael wrote:
> > > Over the last 8-9 months I noticed an old Lenovo G505s laptop is
> > > spending
> > > a
> > > long time in the POST process, before eventually the OEM logo shows up
> > > on
> > > the screen.  Last time I timed it, it took 2.5-3.0 minutes.  Normally it
> > > would only take ~20-30 seconds.  Once the logo shows up the boot process
> > > proceeds without further delay.
> > > 
> > > Initially, this delay to POST would happen randomly and rarely.  Now it
> > > happens every time.
> > > 
> > > Things I tried:
> > > 
> > > 1. Reflashing the UEFI firmware - it didn't work because it already has
> > > the
> > > latest firmware.
> > > 
> > > 2. Removing the main battery and holding down the power button for 15
> > > seconds, hoping to reset the firmware.
> > > 
> > > 3. Leaving the PSU cable connected overnight.
> > > 
> > > 4. Testing the RAM and HDD.
> > > 
> > > None of the above improved the situation, or indicated what might be
> > > wrong.
> > > 
> > > I'll reseat the RAM sticks and the HDD next, in case a contact is
> > > oxidised,
> > > but what else could cause this noticeable delay to POST?  A failing RTC
> > > CMOS battery?
> > 
> > We have had a few of these at work and these symptoms were cured by a
> > new CMOS battery. The voltage on the battery has likely dipped to
> > 2.9-3.0 volts; they get unreliable then (i.e. it's dead.) If you leave
> > it long enough you'll start getting RTC errors on POST.
> > 
> > I'd try that first, assuming you can still get the CMOS battery for these.
> > 
> > Dan
> 
> Thanks Dan, will do.  I was planning to take it apart soon to replace the
> HDD with an SSD, so this would be the first thing to check.  I expect
> finding a replacement unit will be difficult.  Every Lenovo RTC battery
> seems to have a different part number.

Some things are worth waiting for, others no so much.  :-(

So, this laptop was taking longer and longer and longer to boot, until it 
eventually stopped booting 3-4 months ago:

When the power button is pressed the cooling fan spins for a second or two, 
then it stops.  A few minutes later the CPU overheats and eventually it goes 
into a thermal shutdown.  Using an external fan to push air through merely 
delays this process, but the laptop still does not boot.  I am getting a black 
screen and no POST for many minutes until it cuts out.

I tried to reset the MoBo BIOS by pressing the power button with no battery or 
mains connected.  I also removed the newly replaced CMOS/RTC battery and 
pressed the power button, but the same failure mode remains after I 
reassembled everything.

Do I have:

1. Corrupted MoBo UEFI firmware?
2. A dying/dead chipset?
3. Something else?

Is there anything else I could possibly try?

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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Very slow POST process

[mad.scientist.at.large]

usually in laptops which become dirty (they all do, and it's very difficult to take them apart and clean and reassemble) the hard drive is the first thing to fail completely.  A dying hard drive can easily slow/halt boot.  

CPU/GPU are likely next along with the power supplies for those chips.  All you can really do is take it apart, clean it, and if possible test the hard drive etc. in a known good machine.  Alternately, try a different hard drive (either a replacement or a small, cheap used one for testing).  Check that all the fans still spin freely after cleaning them, if possible test them on a power supply (note that some will be 5V and some 12V, be careful to read the labels or start low).  

The CPU/GPU may or may not have become marginal, same goes for the memory and all the other chips and other temperature sensitive parts.  Really, it's essential to fix a laptop soon after it starts acting up, those higher temperatures age everything rapidly and make all the parts more likely to fail.  You may or may not be able to get that laptop working again.

If you can get it basically working test the hell out of everything with utilities like stress so it doesn't fool you and die hard soon.

I hate working on laptops and AIO desktops, always hard to take them apart and put them back together and they both need regular cleaning, before they act up (or at least immediately when they start acting up).  Because of the dust I clean my desktops at least once a year, also a pain but much easier than a laptop or AIO.  This keeps them from wearing out as quickly and as some one on a small fixed income that's very important to me.

Depending on your' situation and what your' time is worth replacement might be the way to go, though you still probably want to recover what you can from the drive.


 
--"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." Tommy Douglas




Dec 2, 2024, 09:06 by confabulate@kintzios.com:

> On Wednesday 29 November 2023 00:16:11 GMT you wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, 28 November 2023 15:49:10 GMT Daniel Frey wrote:
>> > On 11/28/23 03:38, Michael wrote:
>> > > Over the last 8-9 months I noticed an old Lenovo G505s laptop is
>> > > spending
>> > > a
>> > > long time in the POST process, before eventually the OEM logo shows up
>> > > on
>> > > the screen.  Last time I timed it, it took 2.5-3.0 minutes.  Normally it
>> > > would only take ~20-30 seconds.  Once the logo shows up the boot process
>> > > proceeds without further delay.
>> > > 
>> > > Initially, this delay to POST would happen randomly and rarely.  Now it
>> > > happens every time.
>> > > 
>> > > Things I tried:
>> > > 
>> > > 1. Reflashing the UEFI firmware - it didn't work because it already has
>> > > the
>> > > latest firmware.
>> > > 
>> > > 2. Removing the main battery and holding down the power button for 15
>> > > seconds, hoping to reset the firmware.
>> > > 
>> > > 3. Leaving the PSU cable connected overnight.
>> > > 
>> > > 4. Testing the RAM and HDD.
>> > > 
>> > > None of the above improved the situation, or indicated what might be
>> > > wrong.
>> > > 
>> > > I'll reseat the RAM sticks and the HDD next, in case a contact is
>> > > oxidised,
>> > > but what else could cause this noticeable delay to POST?  A failing RTC
>> > > CMOS battery?
>> > 
>> > We have had a few of these at work and these symptoms were cured by a
>> > new CMOS battery. The voltage on the battery has likely dipped to
>> > 2.9-3.0 volts; they get unreliable then (i.e. it's dead.) If you leave
>> > it long enough you'll start getting RTC errors on POST.
>> > 
>> > I'd try that first, assuming you can still get the CMOS battery for these.
>> > 
>> > Dan
>>
>> Thanks Dan, will do.  I was planning to take it apart soon to replace the
>> HDD with an SSD, so this would be the first thing to check.  I expect
>> finding a replacement unit will be difficult.  Every Lenovo RTC battery
>> seems to have a different part number.
>>
>
> Some things are worth waiting for, others no so much.  :-(
>
> So, this laptop was taking longer and longer and longer to boot, until it 
> eventually stopped booting 3-4 months ago:
>
> When the power button is pressed the cooling fan spins for a second or two, 
> then it stops.  A few minutes later the CPU overheats and eventually it goes 
> into a thermal shutdown.  Using an external fan to push air through merely 
> delays this process, but the laptop still does not boot.  I am getting a black 
> screen and no POST for many minutes until it cuts out.
>
> I tried to reset the MoBo BIOS by pressing the power button with no battery or 
> mains connected.  I also removed the newly replaced CMOS/RTC battery and 
> pressed the power button, but the same failure mode remains after I 
> reassembled everything.
>
> Do I have:
>
> 1. Corrupted MoBo UEFI firmware?
> 2. A dying/dead chipset?
> 3. Something else?
>
> Is there anything else I could possibly try?
>

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Very slow POST process

[Michael]

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On Tuesday 3 December 2024 00:34:13 GMT mad.scientist.at.large@tutanota.com 
wrote:
> usually in laptops which become dirty (they all do, and it's very difficult
> to take them apart and clean and reassemble) the hard drive is the first
> thing to fail completely.  A dying hard drive can easily slow/halt boot. 

The hard drive is good.


> CPU/GPU are likely next along with the power supplies for those chips.  All
> you can really do is take it apart, clean it, and if possible test the hard
> drive etc. in a known good machine.  Alternately, try a different hard
> drive (either a replacement or a small, cheap used one for testing).

The laptop has been used on a cooling pad away from dusty surfaces and cleaned 
regularly.  When I took it apart there was just a little dust on the fan and 
exhaust, because it hadn't been cleaned for ~6 months or so.

The drive is in good health according to smartctl and fully accessible over a 
USB cradle.


> Check
> that all the fans still spin freely after cleaning them, if possible test
> them on a power supply (note that some will be 5V and some 12V, be careful
> to read the labels or start low). 

The fan spins freely when rotated by hand.  It also spins initially when the 
power button is pressed.  However, it stops within a couple of seconds and 
does not start again.

This makes me think ... normally when the fan starts spinning at boot it soon 
climbs up to maximum speed while the BIOS runs through POST.  Then it slows 
down as the BIOS hands over to the OS.  Its connected to the MoBo via 4 wires 
which control its PWM.  The wires are in a good condition, but I have no way 
to check what its miniature socket voltage could be while I power it up starts 
without some spare fan or plug.  Anyway, I don't know if some pull-up resistor 
in the fan control circuit is damaged, but even if it failed wouldn't the fan 
continue spinning but at a low speed?  This one stops dead.  Hence it makes me 
think of a corrupt/damaged MoBo chipset or firmware.  :-/


> I hate working on laptops and AIO desktops, always hard to take them apart
> and put them back together and they both need regular cleaning, before they
> act up (or at least immediately when they start acting up).

Yes, I *really* don't like laptops for a number of reasons, no matter the 
convenience they offer.  The inherent difficulty in cleaning/upgrade/repairs, 
added to their relatively small screen size, makes me wanting to avoid them.


> Because of the
> dust I clean my desktops at least once a year, also a pain but much easier
> than a laptop or AIO.  This keeps them from wearing out as quickly and as
> some one on a small fixed income that's very important to me.

The design compromises on a laptop compared to a desktop are many.  I don't 
think I ever had a laptop lasting for more than 6 years of continuous usage 
without things breaking, no matter how careful I was with it.  By the time its 
battery needs replacement something around the corner is usually about to fail 
on me.

I recall seeing the same symptom on an HP laptop some years ago now.  I 
replaced its fan, but it continued to fail to boot in the same manner.  I 
never got to the bottom of it at the time.


> Dec 2, 2024, 09:06 by confabulate@kintzios.com:
> > On Wednesday 29 November 2023 00:16:11 GMT you wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, 28 November 2023 15:49:10 GMT Daniel Frey wrote:
> >> > On 11/28/23 03:38, Michael wrote:
> >> > > Over the last 8-9 months I noticed an old Lenovo G505s laptop is
> >> > > spending
> >> > > a
> >> > > long time in the POST process, before eventually the OEM logo shows
> >> > > up
> >> > > on
> >> > > the screen.  Last time I timed it, it took 2.5-3.0 minutes.  Normally
> >> > > it
> >> > > would only take ~20-30 seconds.  Once the logo shows up the boot
> >> > > process
> >> > > proceeds without further delay.
> >> > > 
> >> > > Initially, this delay to POST would happen randomly and rarely.  Now
> >> > > it
> >> > > happens every time.
> >> > > 
> >> > > Things I tried:
> >> > > 
> >> > > 1. Reflashing the UEFI firmware - it didn't work because it already
> >> > > has
> >> > > the
> >> > > latest firmware.
> >> > > 
> >> > > 2. Removing the main battery and holding down the power button for 15
> >> > > seconds, hoping to reset the firmware.
> >> > > 
> >> > > 3. Leaving the PSU cable connected overnight.
> >> > > 
> >> > > 4. Testing the RAM and HDD.
> >> > > 
> >> > > None of the above improved the situation, or indicated what might be
> >> > > wrong.
> >> > > 
> >> > > I'll reseat the RAM sticks and the HDD next, in case a contact is
> >> > > oxidised,
> >> > > but what else could cause this noticeable delay to POST?  A failing
> >> > > RTC
> >> > > CMOS battery?
> >> > 
> >> > We have had a few of these at work and these symptoms were cured by a
> >> > new CMOS battery. The voltage on the battery has likely dipped to
> >> > 2.9-3.0 volts; they get unreliable then (i.e. it's dead.) If you leave
> >> > it long enough you'll start getting RTC errors on POST.
> >> > 
> >> > I'd try that first, assuming you can still get the CMOS battery for
> >> > these.
> >> > 
> >> > Dan
> >> 
> >> Thanks Dan, will do.  I was planning to take it apart soon to replace the
> >> HDD with an SSD, so this would be the first thing to check.  I expect
> >> finding a replacement unit will be difficult.  Every Lenovo RTC battery
> >> seems to have a different part number.
> > 
> > Some things are worth waiting for, others no so much.  :-(
> > 
> > So, this laptop was taking longer and longer and longer to boot, until it
> > eventually stopped booting 3-4 months ago:
> > 
> > When the power button is pressed the cooling fan spins for a second or
> > two,
> > then it stops.  A few minutes later the CPU overheats and eventually it
> > goes into a thermal shutdown.  Using an external fan to push air through
> > merely delays this process, but the laptop still does not boot.  I am
> > getting a black screen and no POST for many minutes until it cuts out.
> > 
> > I tried to reset the MoBo BIOS by pressing the power button with no
> > battery or mains connected.  I also removed the newly replaced CMOS/RTC
> > battery and pressed the power button, but the same failure mode remains
> > after I reassembled everything.
> > 
> > Do I have:
> > 
> > 1. Corrupted MoBo UEFI firmware?
> > 2. A dying/dead chipset?
> > 3. Something else?
> > 
> > Is there anything else I could possibly try?


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