From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (woodpecker.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A7D21582EF for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2025 20:35:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lists.gentoo.org (bobolink.gentoo.org [140.211.166.189]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: relay-lists.gentoo.org@gentoo.org) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 01CDD33EB78 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2025 20:35:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bobolink.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bobolink.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC8E4110475; Wed, 26 Feb 2025 20:34:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ot1-x32b.google.com (mail-ot1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by bobolink.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8CA61102C9 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2025 20:34:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ot1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-726819aa3fcso103516a34.0 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2025 12:34:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1740602049; x=1741206849; darn=lists.gentoo.org; h=in-reply-to:mime-version:user-agent:date:message-id:autocrypt:from :references:to:subject:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=JFznE6wfCZtc/TOSxVcNYTaz5XxL+/PuNNkDHZXqfXE=; b=FnRUkievOZ4Lqkoyukqawp0iW9jjitmW9UaqRwMEht7czE5fVOoCNoku2an/sh1THQ Zt5ggeTKFaJJgOcg2fgKNG2jrAYtANqTXsx3RsxiC1E+VQgF40fy1o7ZYXUghd1+qcFC kPzVxPsWH91qZq4HtXFvxJQwGjgqlf8992S2r54Buc62axeKj6N04QXjOuX0uXWlUMuB wlpK8adrQ0IXSA+t0fQKa/h861SzbAihjzIwa1P5SUEtDesFVOIKOvoZYiqaW2Ykc6ja hkiIop/9r1Bk/d1NNNS7KHabclqyuTKEPVcmmqqUwb/g1kVUDL1P08GAO+EXuVWvvuF3 /jMA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1740602049; x=1741206849; h=in-reply-to:mime-version:user-agent:date:message-id:autocrypt:from :references:to:subject:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=JFznE6wfCZtc/TOSxVcNYTaz5XxL+/PuNNkDHZXqfXE=; b=BQwteLLtIBqkYbCm4swtkDwRTM72tVK8SQvknGiu9CZOHk27MIvMZS1PQBmkfOHlrB TjjTP+YtP/luYskZoQRPQInbr78pHjThru3X0mT50tnos4afe7kLPyAU4C99zJ5awzmW 5SvPgCD8tfFGPzT7ntb+5XE/e1RFPAH5RXcgxWobqCMPhytkdZMBsA9XN1uPr6g7KSZH ovUCnNdkxACMHn4GohwKJ/+CKmvHzgbdEtB2WsexUXlhDPSSg+o4uhnFD2CxYPB30hhC 1BICou8TnR3MH6ospC9FsusFP/bOexAhSQ2EtBOI22yBgbSJ7/sN1yfgmMG5AoZlvfPE JrzA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yyb1cJFDB0vt+Dj4uiLcAzwQkKg9uw6af3XGQMccbENNuPMeQuO fm7ytYfXQrfM41EUoL5BKL4zfqaPMc8ZLb4h0A/G2vcLVgIiBxq6 X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncuJC69skz06fKlAIJngsz4kzNi5UmjedkR7McI/b2lPh0tKEJbCvWOMzoTed3v aQsC+MJjtheCZ/0F1zguw2mee/T9rgPkfCxg4JgyJcTBE4SWUF3LvEMMddjIpBfB6rbRh91STRz xnIPM0cOFPEyC7QCe6PX/TGPPNqZf1G7XtaY7trx4MeKxdkB0D1EPfHbrmbCBLRTaGI4zte1Nio tKPGnj2pfpNasfiGEIF08g+ysUraT8Iy+m8ozcskHn7u1fUDrAXAR9aANBLF6TMO9moAy4uiwim s+3lE6OsSTf/vatz1au6gR/H X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF3kQ9y3WjkPFVqXNIinSBlaJ7ZPsyOZlwlG6e+Y7C0Qp5ojXH6C47acIELXJmQ4r/skI662w== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:3c45:b0:3f3:cd16:40e3 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3f547de8569mr2679734b6e.1.1740602049396; Wed, 26 Feb 2025 12:34:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.8.8.9] ([212.102.44.84]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5614622812f47-3f541c5bcf7sm844920b6e.47.2025.02.26.12.34.08 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 26 Feb 2025 12:34:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] m.2 nvme stick not what I was expecting at all. To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org References: <3865089.kQq0lBPeGt@rogueboard> From: Dale Autocrypt: addr=rdalek1967@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBGFSciYBEADcEGMyJBSuavKO/XKUVvgkxck7Nl8Iuu8N2lcnRji/rSKg5c1Acix1ll9i oW8JBCHwvn0+Xy60BvEsqcup3YSHw5STl/bR1ePEehtnYrg8FdjdS91+B805RfnKMm69rFVI wLSBHQrSG1yxHd8CloWoEdhmVtP24buajbh114bgXd9ahtpZrCVMrWdWYUg2mEXguGV5uNAh Rf8SWxDNc79w24JxsV34a8niMUYMjzWr0rafIbzk732X38vGjVMLo/2mMpkbp9mPp++LHoY+ 0Pet8zxxdXPJSCd475kza1AD+hhSyBZXB9yknYWgyY3cZe1rGmooJSi2KX4QxO7npwLThcO1 be6KKRkd35+Fi/a1BzVOHsZMiK/gcwxEFoMd27gir4ehaeHJfFXl+65w4hj0EsOZSxrJrm2C R50g5By2czSKP1bADEygFNpIJj51AR+wM88NImG2RPtlT2maYBzazvF05g65cdHXGp1C7W5P wwwKU2DgABB2t7N7z5A69LnryBRw4zUYDRRYLTYlBlYgg+xILm2c0OrBdxJgLJa7JE50Eo25 d3PFwt9J0gYvqy6sPFLl9So0sDg9zm0hKQtXOP5kgropUFGrNoJI+mjwF4rYLRBVzZwNAvlO OhEvHubBo3mEllv4x+FeptwXZxlk7gUsdqI8AxnFB8K9wi6FVQARAQABtBtEYWxlIDxyZGFs ZWsxOTY3QGdtYWlsLmNvbT6JAk4EEwEIADgCGyMFCwkIBwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AW IQQSG1h01ruv/WNXc3Q3RqOgiQH1GwUCYVJy8gAKCRA3RqOgiQH1G+waEACeTZCt77jnRAmQ AV7otKuZekDWiLi3Eig8tj5ZJiCNSYA/hIxzmexRP0GMqjitcXK1iGwWcvMzzvIq30GAjIfB 4BR38cnXbtBa6fNewiT7QaZe/Hn6yBRldXNQypzbHy+/o27bUEy+oX4rE7etUgEHQAjuw7xz XFWg4tH1/KJvsOVY5upnWc5LdxYhsuQ3dQD4b22GsK0pOBDfb9PiirYM8eGKvrVuq4E/c75z lDDFhINl18lNZ9D0ZFL3IkTjHsAAqFH9uhnnEB8CWdHbBewPEfRaOhBUYWZ3Q8uTkmDgZT8q D9jlvLEdw7Nh2ApdxoepnI/4D+ql2Gr4DtH7SEPydr5gcf1Qr/2bXRb1hAYnIVcbncs/Bm3Z bkRKPVWMfE3Fusa+p5hMzixk0YysMaTHlc7mYRYAEZGnPMXnmcCbetwARU7A0yz1M1kCMOAQ Lsz8KH5kv3cRenMB6SFfjND2JfAK61H5TtnPq3L8noS2ZykRYxq9Nm3X64O1tJojIKBoZFr8 AwYNCvqC6puUyGMuzHPh7jPof8glfrrEKIYUvNPGMDoVX3IGetxh/9l6NcxgFA4JGoR+LS3C zmeNrwlllAe3OEUfKoWVQ+pagpSdM+8hHolaSda4Ys66Z3fCR4ZvcTqfhTAVskpqdXa4isAk 7vTcXu3L499ttywEp7rJTbkCDQRhUnImARAAncUdVhmtRr59zqpTUppKroQYlzR0jv8oa7DG K4gakTAT2N7evnI9wpssmzyVk8VEiLzhnFQ/Ol3FRt6hZCXDJt0clyHOyTfvz/MNFttWuZTc mLpSvmRR6VRjAH+Tz3Eam2xUw3PGuH97BcXQ3NnX3msv1UDxtxxBu6e2YrdeOhrCUSgzokcJ 98ChUNy934cgepPybAI12lSWqVFQ1aG7jExZfiUk+333fPSDbpKoZbTW5YJLXbycmW/C1IWL qYQyNjRWKaGoJtUWFhhmNiOQct7n90aKivNVPavmN+UQ9LlMaINtf9T6XCzLfogCFsulDCDJ 0yNQLDTurHaB4E71xoctgXmLLq9z1RQ0W2XiVAAOZQj6K3+d0AOUjDhCQ2QW8dUSq0ckkZXV DKVJOGS8Nhf2eIWIqRnP3AcUiiaiFGqUaVUmUAZ6h/oJmgghEu/1S+pcuUKU5i69+XCZ3hH2 Jzwzbf7K+FAIkOhCfHncF8i1N1pk00pOVykNnqHTfFo3qFusHt0ZWgXVnnn4pYdXqZNoDhvF BRE5Vm4k/k96Pw8HRx6Os6eFSRrlqGzRgqsu86FekxusXB9UGv4lJhtU/J+8MRWsh22K718s DbQnABicGKFz1qQlWvcf59oTByhLINJCBt1WXl+TzJDXepr3QSkqmK41dO9Hob97C9dMiK8A EQEAAYkCNgQYAQgAIAIbDBYhBBIbWHTWu6/9Y1dzdDdGo6CJAfUbBQJhUnLyAAoJEDdGo6CJ AfUbVHIQAKSWw620vPhR3A/njU2z77F3z/Jk+HTKdE3fIyWSWdkYN7CBFL0NguOMP30WZ+qE sJhZu7T5hf251MwQUUt27xlfnKYOmQs7CqONlXuXlGZI6WufrUjxNcVz+5gJsqvUWuuJWsgg sDmE92IBnfG/f81fPHWQyfr/SF4wYDMyoFp5xCCQpp1zB63iuFvvrhxBkEHzmbRtVDOhl0Xp BVEDR1w3QRACw9QJD/KM05Czv9JNQYlwinWO/OaQ9cMlUpKLgswUPg9IZ5vucxScfuAUA5uC B1jlAQ8ZPlVukBmbEv5RGOv+lpuEbA3YDMVtEeH4YMFbjt/+vH3Cr2vTbp5JlpByLburJEH0 WXZLUawEfUsZvVwpOuJK75vaa2HYXee+Cb3iCIzwfIfctdlqzUcbGRczlRNM59hpvj4z29Gh 3kAxVHItAYq54ikxQ9l4hQ8s9sLYPbX/WtcBxNX8crBSw0FLnmzGleVEtBHyqtt5CLzQNgrj GYWl1vKDUmRPw1CdZ1c+fMN9CY11jOM5B5ZnqZWfDeVYO2iJ5SuvTycChexCb8WYn1bdCBIo bBtga2RBXbVt4Mh9E4owsszefn51MwfjXxB20Fc5k3GU1AVpTCMs3ayYCzo0b2pvEvdjtDcA CYLEFPWgaFX9iQAM/CDfKvTtvgGWpqtCL2raq/mQoJEU Message-ID: <7b53f085-352d-379b-036c-9cde76411440@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2025 14:34:07 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:128.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/128.0 SeaMonkey/2.53.20 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3865089.kQq0lBPeGt@rogueboard> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------0BCC4964B6A82FB23B434E2C" X-Archives-Salt: dacbcf20-be28-4c93-b24e-5bcac3c3ac22 X-Archives-Hash: 55533ab9b46adbb8adbad048dc62c586 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0BCC4964B6A82FB23B434E2C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael wrote: > On Wednesday, 26 February 2025 14:43:41 Greenwich Mean Time Dale wrote: >> Rich Freeman wrote: >>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2025 at 12:26 PM Dale wrote: >>>> I'm pretty sure you mentioned this once before in one of my older >>>> threads. I can't find it tho. I use PCIe x1 cards to connect my SATA >>>> drives for my video collection and such. You mentioned once what the >>>> bandwidth was for that setup and how many drives it would take to pretty >>>> much max it out. Right now, I have one card for two sets of LVs. One >>>> LV has four drives and the other has three. What would be the limiting >>>> factor on that, the drives, the PCIe bus or something else? >>> It depends on the PCIe revision, and of course whether the controller >>> actually maxes it out. >>> >>> 1x PCIe v3 can do 0.985GB/s total. That's about 5 HDDs if they're >>> running sequentially, and again assumes that your controller can >>> actually handle all that data. For each generation of PCIe >>> forward/backwards either double/halve the transfer rate. The >>> interface works at the version of PCIe supported by both the >>> motherboard+CPU and the adapter card. >>> >>> If you're talking about HDDs in practice the HDDs are probably still >>> the bottleneck. If these were SATA SSDs then odds are that the PCIe >>> lane is limiting things, because I doubt this is an all-v5 setup. >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#History_and_revisions >>> >>> The big advantage of NVMe isn't so much the bandwidth as the IOPS, >>> though both benefit. Those run at full PCIe 4x interface speed per >>> drive, but of course you need 4 lanes per drive for this, which is >>> hard to obtain on consumer motherboards at any scale. >> This I think is what I needed. As it is, I'm most likely not maxing >> anything out, yet. The drives for Data, torrent stuff, stays pretty >> busy. Mostly reading. My other set of drives, videos, isn't to busy >> most of the time. A few MBs/sec or something, playing videos type >> reading. Still, next time I power down, I may stick that second card in >> and divide things up a bit. Might benefit if those cards aren't to great. >> >> I did copy this info and stuck in in a text file so I don't have to dig >> for it again, or ask again. ;-) >> >> Thanks. >> >> Dale >> >> :-) :-) > The other thing to straighten out, already hinted at by Rich et al., is an > NVMe M.2 card in a USB 3 enclosure won't be able to maximise its SSD transfer > rates. To do this it will require a Thunderbolt connector and a corresponding > Thenderbolt PC port, which will connect it internally to the computer's PCIe > bus, rather than USB/SATA. Hence a previous comment questioning the perceived > value of paying for a NVMe SSD M.2 form factor within a USB enclosure. It > won't really derive much if any performance benefit compared to a *good* > quality USB 3 flash drive (UFD), which can be sourced at a much lower price > point. > > External storage medium, transfer protocol, device controller, PC bus and > cables/connectors/ports, will all have to have aligned generations of > technology and standards, if you expect to make most of their advertised > transfer speeds. Otherwise you'll be stuck at some component of a lower > performance providing a bottleneck to your aspirations. ;-) > > Sometime ago I bought a SanDisk 1TB Extreme Portable SSD, which has a USB-C > connector and a USB 3.2 Gen 2 controller as a replacement for a flaky USB 3.0 > stick. It is slightly bigger than a small UFD and more expensive than the > cheaper UFD offerings, but the faster speeds more than compensate for it. At > the time I bought it, external NVMe M.2 drives were too expensive and I only > had USB 3.0 ports anyway. So in my use case it was offering the best bang for > my buck. It is true that this is a costly method.  A USB stick is also much smaller as well.  Thing is, it was easier for me to connect to my phone.  The included cable did the job just fine.  It also allowed me to put my eggs in more than one basket.  I'll still likely store important files on USB sticks, since I'm not using them for anything else, but I also have it on a m.2 stick as well.  I'm not really worried about speed.  As it is, it is plenty fast enough.  Even when I copied my camera pics to the m.2 stick, it only took a few minutes.  It copied them over while I was doing something else.  Having it finish in half the time or something wouldn't have affected me at all.  If it took a couple more minutes, that would have been fine too.  Also, I got to play with external storage on my new rig.  I didn't trust it on my old rig.  I had lots of issues with USB and storage on the old rig.  The new rig, be it software, hardware or both does a lot better.  It also has the faster USB 3 stuff, including a type C port.  Either way, I trust it more now.  I also had a little fun playing with this stuff.  Keep in mind, the first m.2 stick I saw was the one I bought for my OS on this new rig.  Before that, only read about them or saw pictures of them.  Plus read about them on this list.  Basically, I'm happy.  Did find out that backing up /root, /etc, world file and my camera directory almost fills up this 480GB stick.  Oh, I also noticed they fixed the title on the listing.  It now says 480GB instead of 1TB.  Disappointed that I didn't get a response tho.  They could have said sorry for the boo boo.  :/  Still, I'm fine with it.  Dale :-)  :-)  --------------0BCC4964B6A82FB23B434E2C Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Michael wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 February 2025 14:43:41 Greenwich Mean Time Dale wrote:

Rich Freeman wrote:

On Tue, Feb 25, 2025 at 12:26 PM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm pretty sure you mentioned this once before in one of my older
threads.  I can't find it tho.  I use PCIe x1 cards to connect my SATA
drives for my video collection and such.  You mentioned once what the
bandwidth was for that setup and how many drives it would take to pretty
much max it out.  Right now, I have one card for two sets of LVs.  One
LV has four drives and the other has three.  What would be the limiting
factor on that, the drives, the PCIe bus or something else?

It depends on the PCIe revision, and of course whether the controller
actually maxes it out.

1x PCIe v3 can do 0.985GB/s total.  That's about 5 HDDs if they're
running sequentially, and again assumes that your controller can
actually handle all that data.  For each generation of PCIe
forward/backwards either double/halve the transfer rate.  The
interface works at the version of PCIe supported by both the
motherboard+CPU and the adapter card.

If you're talking about HDDs in practice the HDDs are probably still
the bottleneck.  If these were SATA SSDs then odds are that the PCIe
lane is limiting things, because I doubt this is an all-v5 setup.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#History_and_revisions

The big advantage of NVMe isn't so much the bandwidth as the IOPS,
though both benefit.  Those run at full PCIe 4x interface speed per
drive, but of course you need 4 lanes per drive for this, which is
hard to obtain on consumer motherboards at any scale.

This I think is what I needed.  As it is, I'm most likely not maxing
anything out, yet.  The drives for Data, torrent stuff, stays pretty
busy.  Mostly reading.  My other set of drives, videos, isn't to busy
most of the time.  A few MBs/sec or something, playing videos type
reading.  Still, next time I power down, I may stick that second card in
and divide things up a bit.  Might benefit if those cards aren't to great. 

I did copy this info and stuck in in a text file so I don't have to dig
for it again, or ask again.  ;-) 

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

The other thing to straighten out, already hinted at by Rich et al., is an 
NVMe M.2 card in a USB 3 enclosure won't be able to maximise its SSD transfer 
rates.  To do this it will require a Thunderbolt connector and a corresponding 
Thenderbolt PC port, which will connect it internally to the computer's PCIe 
bus, rather than USB/SATA.  Hence a previous comment questioning the perceived 
value of paying for a NVMe SSD M.2 form factor within a USB enclosure.  It 
won't really derive much if any performance benefit compared to a *good* 
quality USB 3 flash drive (UFD), which can be sourced at a much lower price 
point.

External storage medium, transfer protocol, device controller, PC bus and 
cables/connectors/ports, will all have to have aligned generations of 
technology and standards, if you expect to make most of their advertised 
transfer speeds.  Otherwise you'll be stuck at some component of a lower 
performance providing a bottleneck to your aspirations.  ;-)

Sometime ago I bought a SanDisk 1TB Extreme Portable SSD, which has a USB-C 
connector and a USB 3.2 Gen 2 controller as a replacement for a flaky USB 3.0 
stick.  It is slightly bigger than a small UFD and more expensive than the 
cheaper UFD offerings, but the faster speeds more than compensate for it.  At 
the time I bought it, external NVMe M.2 drives were too expensive and I only 
had USB 3.0 ports anyway.  So in my use case it was offering the best bang for 
my buck.


It is true that this is a costly method.  A USB stick is also much smaller as well.  Thing is, it was easier for me to connect to my phone.  The included cable did the job just fine.  It also allowed me to put my eggs in more than one basket.  I'll still likely store important files on USB sticks, since I'm not using them for anything else, but I also have it on a m.2 stick as well. 

I'm not really worried about speed.  As it is, it is plenty fast enough.  Even when I copied my camera pics to the m.2 stick, it only took a few minutes.  It copied them over while I was doing something else.  Having it finish in half the time or something wouldn't have affected me at all.  If it took a couple more minutes, that would have been fine too. 

Also, I got to play with external storage on my new rig.  I didn't trust it on my old rig.  I had lots of issues with USB and storage on the old rig.  The new rig, be it software, hardware or both does a lot better.  It also has the faster USB 3 stuff, including a type C port.  Either way, I trust it more now. 

I also had a little fun playing with this stuff.  Keep in mind, the first m.2 stick I saw was the one I bought for my OS on this new rig.  Before that, only read about them or saw pictures of them.  Plus read about them on this list. 

Basically, I'm happy.  Did find out that backing up /root, /etc, world file and my camera directory almost fills up this 480GB stick. 

Oh, I also noticed they fixed the title on the listing.  It now says 480GB instead of 1TB.  Disappointed that I didn't get a response tho.  They could have said sorry for the boo boo.  :/  Still, I'm fine with it. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 
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