[gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[behrouz khosravi]

Hello everyone.
I just concurred my fear and jumped to installing gentoo!
So far so good!
Before installing on my laptop and desktop, I am trying on virtual box
and the system is running Fluxbox very good.(default profile)
Now I am thinking about managing USE flags.
What if I  disable everything in the make.conf ( I mean USE="-*" ) and
gradually add the needed flags to package.use?
I am not trying to have severe control, I just want to expand my knowledge!
thanks.

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Philip Webb]

140729 behrouz khosravi wrote:
> I just concurred my fear and jumped to installing gentoo!
         ^ 'conquered' (smile) : 'concur' = 'agree'.
> So far so good!

Yes, it's not difficult, but it's a sort of initiation test.

> Before installing on my laptop and desktop,
> I am trying on virtual box and the system is running Fluxbox very good.

Yes, Fluxbox is less well-known than it should be : it's excellent.

> Now I am thinking about managing USE flags.
> What if I disable everything in the make.conf ( I mean USE="-*" )
> and gradually add the needed flags to package.use?

That's what I've done for years, but others will react in horror (smile).
It's ok, provided you check the use flags for applications,
whenever you emerge new versions : occasionally otherwise, it can hurt.

> I just want to expand my knowledge!

This is a very polite & friendly list with good advice available.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 21:34:04 +0430, behrouz khosravi wrote:

> Now I am thinking about managing USE flags.
> What if I  disable everything in the make.conf ( I mean USE="-*" ) and
> gradually add the needed flags to package.use?

You may well break your system, but you get to keep the pieces as a
lesson.

Portage profiles set some default USE flags, then some ebuilds also set
defaults. Using USE="-*" disables all of these. You can see the defaults
by looking at the output from emerge --info with no USE defined in
make.conf.

> I am not trying to have severe control, I just want to expand my
> knowledge!

You will do that, but not in the way you hoped. Pick a profile that most
closely matches your usage and then find tune from that by adding or
removing USE flags. That's a lot easier than deliberately breaking things
and then trying to work out how to fix them.

Also, when setting up a new system, make USE flag changes gradually.
Unless you are sure of what you are doing, only change a few at a time.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

System halted - Press all keys at once to continue.

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Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Alec Ten Harmsel]

> Also, when setting up a new system, make USE flag changes gradually.
> Unless you are sure of what you are doing, only change a few at a time.

Haha, just got frustrated with how much junk is on my machine and 
globally disabled perl, python, ruby, and a bunch of other stuff. Bad 
times ensued ;).

But really, as long as you're fine with looking at failed builds to see 
what went wrong, you should be fine. You can set PORT_LOGDIR in 
make.conf to send all build logs into a location (mine is 
/var/log/portage) so that all logs get saved automatically, which I 
find helpful.

Alec

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[behrouz khosravi]

On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 9:48 PM, Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> wrote:
> 140729 behrouz khosravi wrote:
>          ^ 'conquered' (smile) : 'concur' = 'agree'.
Sorry. Now it is obvious English is not my mother tongue!

regards.

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Walter Dnes]

On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 09:34:04PM +0430, behrouz khosravi wrote
> Hello everyone.
> I just concurred my fear and jumped to installing gentoo!
> So far so good!
> Before installing on my laptop and desktop, I am trying on virtual box
> and the system is running Fluxbox very good.(default profile)
> Now I am thinking about managing USE flags.
> What if I  disable everything in the make.conf ( I mean USE="-*" ) and
> gradually add the needed flags to package.use?
> I am not trying to have severe control, I just want to expand my knowledge!
> thanks.

  Here is a compromise.  I started with USE="-*" and then gradually
added stuff that was needed by most items.  My rule-of-thumb is...
If adding a flag to USE reduces the number of entries in package.use,
then I add it.  I.e. if...
* not having flag "foobar" in USE requires 6 entries in package.use, and
* having flag "foobar" in USE requires only 2 "-" entries in package.use

...then I move flag "foobar" into USE and put a few "-" entries in
package.use.  I do want stuff like "ncurses nptl nptlonly posix readline
threads" for every app which can use it.  Similarly, cpu-specific flags
should be in your USE.  This effectively gives you a very customized
profile.  By the way, you can make your own variables in make.conf, and
concatenate them, like in bash.  In my make.conf I have...

USE_BASE="-* a52 aac bzip2 cxx fortran ncurses netifrc nptl nptlonly nsplugin offensive openssl posix readline ssl threads vim-syntax zlib"
USE_CPU="mmx mmxext sse sse2 sse3 ssse3"
USE_VIDEO="X dga dri exif ffmpeg flac classic gif intel jpeg mng mp3 mpeg ogg opengl png rtmp theora tiff truetype vorbis xcomposite webm x264 xpm xv xvid xvmc"
USE="${USE_BASE} ${USE_CPU} ${USE_VIDEO}"

  I can mostly copy this to another machine.  ***WARNING*** the flags in
USE_CPU are specific to, and have to be customized for, each machine.
My Dell Dimension 530 dates back to June 2008.  Newer Intel machines
will have additional cpu-specific flags, and AMD cpus will have their
own unique additional flags.  Your set of flags may be different,
depending on what applications you use, and what you want to do with the
machine.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[behrouz khosravi]

> Portage profiles set some default USE flags, then some ebuilds also set
> defaults. Using USE="-*" disables all of these. You can see the defaults
I have noticed that some packages have flags that I have not set, but
I though that they were the default flags for that package. You mean
those flags will become persistence? Will be them written to a
specific file?

> You will do that, but not in the way you hoped. Pick a profile that most
> closely matches your usage and then find tune from that by adding or
> removing USE flags. That's a lot easier than deliberately breaking things
> and then trying to work out how to fix them.

I guess your way is better. I think it will be a good idea to stick to
the base profile, and define the required flags as locale flags.

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Am Dienstag, 29. Juli 2014, 19:04:04 schrieb behrouz khosravi:
>
> Now I am thinking about managing USE flags.
> What if I  disable everything in the make.conf ( I mean USE="-*" ) and
> gradually add the needed flags to package.use?

The default profile is what you need.

Please don't do USE="-*". It breaks things. 

* Long ago, setting a useflag always meant "adding things to the default". For 
some years now, we have use-defaults, which means an ebuild can set whether a 
use flag set not by profile and not by user is on or off. If you add "-*" to 
your use flags, you turn all default-on useflags off too (which means you may 
switch away from upstream defaults a lot). 
An example where this may lead to trouble: you end up with sys-devel/gcc[-
cxx], i.e. a compiler that cannot translate C++.

* The dependencies on specific Python or Ruby versions are controlled via 
useflags. Basically, if Python package X needs Python package Y, both have to 
be installed for the same Python variant for things to work. If you disable 
all useflags via "-*", you basically disable support for all variants. Bang.

* Similar for multilib installations. 



-- 

Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/


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Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Alan McKinnon]

On 29/07/2014 22:16, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 09:34:04PM +0430, behrouz khosravi wrote
>> Hello everyone.
>> I just concurred my fear and jumped to installing gentoo!
>> So far so good!
>> Before installing on my laptop and desktop, I am trying on virtual box
>> and the system is running Fluxbox very good.(default profile)
>> Now I am thinking about managing USE flags.
>> What if I  disable everything in the make.conf ( I mean USE="-*" ) and
>> gradually add the needed flags to package.use?
>> I am not trying to have severe control, I just want to expand my knowledge!
>> thanks.
> 
>   Here is a compromise.  I started with USE="-*" 


Here's very good advice for the OP:

Do not do this. Walter does it, and he finds it works for him. He's been
doing it for years and nothing will persuade him to do it any other way.

You should not do with USE what Walter does. Trust me, it will lead you
down a path of immense pain that you do not have the tools to get out
of, and when you ask here for help you will be told to take that -* out
of USE.

No offense Walter, but this is really bad advice to give someone brand
new to Gentoo. He really is ill-equipped to deal with it, and USE="-*"
is best left to those who fully understand exactly what they are getting
themselves into.


-- 


Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Philip Webb]

140730 behrouz khosravi wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 9:48 PM, Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> wrote:
>> 140729 behrouz khosravi wrote:
>>          ^ 'conquered' (smile) : 'concur' = 'agree'.
> Sorry.

No need at all ! -- You said you wanted to learn (at the end) !

> Now it is obvious English is not my mother tongue!

I suspect that may be true of a majority of Gentooers :
we're all used to interpreting others' words
& trying to be careful to be clear when we do know English well.

From the discussion so far today, you sound like a born Gentoo user.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[behrouz khosravi]

On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 AM, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
>  In my make.conf I have...
> USE_BASE="-* a52 aac bzip2 cxx fortran ncurses netifrc nptl nptlonly nsplugin offensive openssl posix readline ssl threads vim-syntax zlib"
> USE_CPU="mmx mmxext sse sse2 sse3 ssse3"
> USE_VIDEO="X dga dri exif ffmpeg flac classic gif intel jpeg mng mp3 mpeg ogg opengl png rtmp theora tiff truetype vorbis xcomposite webm x264 xpm xv xvid xvmc"
> USE="${USE_BASE} ${USE_CPU} ${USE_VIDEO}"

The way that you have managed the USE flag is neat, and I will do the same.
Thanks for your help.

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[behrouz khosravi]

On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:34 AM, Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> wrote:

> I suspect that may be true of a majority of Gentooers :
> we're all used to interpreting others' words
> & trying to be careful to be clear when we do know English well.

I will be very happy to be a part of this great community.

> From the discussion so far today, you sound like a born Gentoo user.

Thank you very much. You just made my day!
Have a great time.

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[behrouz khosravi]

Thank you all.

I have concluded that I should stay with the base profile. Although I
need a desktop, but this decision will be closest to what I want in a
harmless way! (at least less harm!)
Then I will add CPU specific and very frequent flags to make.conf and
gradually extend the package.use file.

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Dale]

Philip Webb wrote:
> 140730 behrouz khosravi wrote:
>
>> Now it is obvious English is not my mother tongue!
> I suspect that may be true of a majority of Gentooers :
> we're all used to interpreting others' words
> & trying to be careful to be clear when we do know English well.
>
>

English is the only language I know and even I mess it up at times.  So,
we all have to read between the lines at times.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Peter Humphrey]

On Wednesday 30 July 2014 05:37:08 Dale wrote:

> English is the only language I know and even I mess it up at times.

Yes, but then you are American  ;)

-- 
Regards
Peter

[gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[James]

behrouz khosravi <bz.khosravi <at> gmail.com> writes:


> Walter Dnes <waltdnes <at> waltdnes.org> wrote:
> >  In my make.conf I have...
> > USE_BASE="-* a52 aac bzip2 cxx fortran ncurses netifrc nptl nptlonly  
> > nsplugin offensive openssl posix
> readline ssl threads vim-syntax zlib"
> > USE_CPU="mmx mmxext sse sse2 sse3 ssse3"
> > USE_VIDEO="X dga dri exif ffmpeg flac classic gif intel jpeg mng mp3 
> > mpeg ogg opengl png rtmp theora tiff
> truetype vorbis xcomposite webm x264 xpm xv xvid xvmc"
> > USE="${USE_BASE} ${USE_CPU} ${USE_VIDEO}"
> 
> The way that you have managed the USE flag is neat, and I will do the same.
> Thanks for your help.


Howdy Behrouz,

Gentoo is a very wonderful OS, and we have lots of "Special" folks
that are very capable, wise but often tainted, as you will discover.

Walter, like myself, is a minmalist. Others are right too, that your first
journey into "Gentoo" you need to follow the beaten path for a while
before you venture out, naked and alone. We've all borked a system or 2,
some abuse the that honor........

YOU have chosen a somewhat minimalist path with your desktop, wisely
avoiding "bloat_ware_city". But, to avoid pain do keep some minimal 
collection of flags. Python is CRITICAL on gentoo, so ask before 
verging out on Python!

 Look at the defaults for your selected profile and what Walter has
suggested. jArch_Linux documentation is often useful too. When in doubt,
keep the flag, until you are assured it's removal will not result in a
broken (borked?) system. You have a lot of reading to do on the
www.gentoo.wiki and other gentoo pages (here are a few)

man euse   (euse -i <flag>   and euse -<flag>) 
eix <package>          (man eix)
man equery

gentoolkit  (is your swiss army knife for gentoo)

http://www.gentoo.org/dyn/use-index.xml#doc_chap1

http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/OpenRC
(hopefully, you are using openrc and not systemd ?)

http://swift.siphos.be/linux_sea/

(Sven is a great human! He not only overseas much of the documentation,
he one of the SeLinux folks, should you venture into those waters)

This is not a complete list of good reading by any means, but a start.


good hunting!
James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 14:07:30 +0000 (UTC), James wrote:

> YOU have chosen a somewhat minimalist path with your desktop, wisely
> avoiding "bloat_ware_city"

Personally, I prefer USE="-hyperbole" :)

> But, to avoid pain do keep some minimal 
> collection of flags. Python is CRITICAL on gentoo, so ask before 
> verging out on Python!

Bear in mind that USE flags control *optional* features and dependencies.
Setting USE="-python" will not prevent python being installed, nor will
it break portage, but it will "de-bloat" those packages that come with
optional python interfaces and bindings.

One USE flags that new users often select, mistakenly, is doc. Package
documentation such as man pages, info pages and readmes is installed by
default. The doc USE flag enables the building and installation of
developer and API documentation, and usually comes with a swathe of
dependencies. It should never be enabled globally.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

There is absolutely no substitute for a genuine lack of preparation.

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Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Dale]

Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Wednesday 30 July 2014 05:37:08 Dale wrote:
>
>> English is the only language I know and even I mess it up at times.
> Yes, but then you are American  ;)
>

True but sometimes, I suck at it.  For the record, I am bad to leave the
word "not" or "n't" out.  Talk about a monumental change in meaning. 
ROFL   Imagine talking about the command rm and leaving that out.  o_O 

Still, I think we do our best when someone posts and English is not
their first language.  I know it is hard sometimes for people to post
and get it right but still, we all try. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 29.07.2014 19:04, schrieb behrouz khosravi:
> Hello everyone.
> I just concurred my fear and jumped to installing gentoo!
> So far so good!
> Before installing on my laptop and desktop, I am trying on virtual box
> and the system is running Fluxbox very good.(default profile)
> Now I am thinking about managing USE flags.
> What if I  disable everything in the make.conf ( I mean USE="-*" ) and
> gradually add the needed flags to package.use?
you will break you system.

> I am not trying to have severe control, I just want to expand my knowledge!
> thanks.
>
then don't do stupid things like USE=-*

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 30.07.2014 17:02, schrieb Neil Bothwick:
> On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 14:07:30 +0000 (UTC), James wrote:
>
>> YOU have chosen a somewhat minimalist path with your desktop, wisely
>> avoiding "bloat_ware_city"
> Personally, I prefer USE="-hyperbole" :)
>
>> But, to avoid pain do keep some minimal 
>> collection of flags. Python is CRITICAL on gentoo, so ask before 
>> verging out on Python!
> Bear in mind that USE flags control *optional* features and dependencies.
> Setting USE="-python" will not prevent python being installed, nor will
> it break portage, but it will "de-bloat" those packages that come with
> optional python interfaces and bindings.

and it might break packages in features in surprising ways.

People who tell newbies that -* could be used at all, should be flogged.

In a public place. With video.

This 'de-bloat' crap - who came up with that? People who use it all the
times seldomly realize that the 'small and unbloated' software they use
is in a lot of cases neither small, nor not bloated.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[behrouz khosravi]

On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:37 PM, James <wireless@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

> ...
Thanks for your advice. They were surely helpful.

> http://swift.siphos.be/linux_sea/
>
> (Sven is a great human! He not only overseas much of the documentation,
> he one of the SeLinux folks, should you venture into those waters)
>
Oh yea, I have read the "Linux Sea" and it was great. Very Informative.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Alan McKinnon]

On 30/07/2014 20:02, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:


> This 'de-bloat' crap - who came up with that? People who use it all the
> times seldomly realize that the 'small and unbloated' software they use
> is in a lot of cases neither small, nor not bloated.
> 
> 
> 


Usually it comes from the same headspace that ricing comes from. Humans
are all about perception, very very very few of them can actually look
at things in an unbiased way. So it goes like this:

User hates Gnome. [opinion]
User decides that because Gnome integrates so many things vertically
then Gnome must necessarily be bloated. [invalid conclusion not backed
up by facts]
User decides to try Razor|LXDE|Enlightenment|*box|whatever [valid activity]
User likes <whatever> [opinion]
User concludes that <whatever> is therefore "better" than Gnome
[erronously equate specific opinion with fact for the general case]
Therefore <whatever> is not bloated and Gnome is, to satisfy wrong
conclusion at #2 [I can't even begin to think what fallacy this is]


Not much opinion in any of that.
We humans are mostly hard-wired to react based on past experience and
data blindly accepted as fact in the past. 9 times out of 10 this helps
you leap out of the way of the tiger seeking to have you for lunch. You
got this ability from dad's genes and it must be raising the odds for
you and he otherwise he wouldn't have survived long enough to sire you.
If you stop to think about the tiger, he is for sure going to have a
nice lunch. So we humans that survived did so by jumping to conclusions
and having them work out OK on average. This new-fangled idea of
actually thinking about things all the way through is a very new idea,
and most of the species hasn't gotten the hang of it yet.

So now you know why ricers swear blind that -pipe in CFLAGS "*doubles*
the running speed, dude!"


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[the]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 07/29/14 21:04, behrouz khosravi wrote:
| Hello everyone. I just concurred my fear and jumped to installing
| gentoo! So far so good! Before installing on my laptop and
| desktop, I am trying on virtual box and the system is running
| Fluxbox very good.(default profile) Now I am thinking about
| managing USE flags. What if I  disable everything in the make.conf
| ( I mean USE="-*" ) and gradually add the needed flags to
| package.use? I am not trying to have severe control, I just want to
| expand my knowledge! thanks.

Smokey: Start emacs, Dude, I'm marking it -* .

Walter Sobchak: [pulls out a gun] Smokey, my friend, you are entering
a world of pain.


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Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Alan McKinnon]

On 30/07/2014 19:57, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am 29.07.2014 19:04, schrieb behrouz khosravi:
>> Hello everyone.
>> I just concurred my fear and jumped to installing gentoo!
>> So far so good!
>> Before installing on my laptop and desktop, I am trying on virtual box
>> and the system is running Fluxbox very good.(default profile)
>> Now I am thinking about managing USE flags.
>> What if I  disable everything in the make.conf ( I mean USE="-*" ) and
>> gradually add the needed flags to package.use?
> you will break you system.

Volker is correct.

The reason you will break your system is that you do not have enough
knowledge to know what to put back, and you don't know how to read the
error messages and know what they mean.

Here's what portage does NOT do:

Tell you that flag x is missing and this will cause issues a, b and c,
then give you exact instructions how to make it better.


Here's what portage DOES do:

Give you some weird error message with the word "backtrack" in it, or
messages like "no parents that could not be satisfied by other packages
in slot" or something about blockers in flashing red blink text, or it
might even just say nothing giving the impression everything succeeded.
And then your computer explodes.


Still wanna try USE="-*" ?





> 
>> I am not trying to have severe control, I just want to expand my knowledge!
>> thanks.
>>
> then don't do stupid things like USE=-*
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

[gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[James]

behrouz khosravi <bz.khosravi <at> gmail.com> writes:


> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:37 PM, James <wireless <at> tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

> Thanks for your advice. They were surely helpful.

My pleasure.....



> This 'de-bloat' crap - who came up with that? People who use it all the
> times seldomly realize that the 'small and unbloated' software they use
> is in a lot of cases neither small, nor not bloated.

I wish I could take credit for it; it is a very, very popular concept,
characterize our newest noob, as you like....

Lots of folks have lots of reasons to reduce the space/ram/cup resource
consumption, particularly for things  they do not want and quite often
due to constraints on resources....(ymmv).


> Usually it comes from the same headspace that ricing comes from.

Wow, dude! a serious compliment from one of my many heros!

Do remember that my knowledge of "ricing" comes from the very coolest
and early vintige motorcycles:

https://www.google.com/search?client=seamonkey-a&rls=org.mozilla:
en-US:unofficial&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=BjzZU_iXEuvmsAT74oKADA&
ved=0CEoQsAQ&biw=886&bih=829&q=Original
rice-rockets motorcycle


Bloat (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bloated)
Full Definition of BLOATED
1 :  obnoxiously vain <a bloated ego>
2 a :  being much larger than what is warranted <a bloated estimate> 

now now boys, try not be so full of angst with your choices. Gentoo
is about choices; and bloat by it's very nature, is in the eyes of the
beholder.....  Some guys like a 'big boodie, some guys like it skinny!

From a technical perspective, just look at the amazing world of embedded
systems......   bloat will get you fired cause your embedded system
will run slower than your competitors on similar hardware.


Enjoy!
James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 20:02:11 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> >> YOU have chosen a somewhat minimalist path with your desktop, wisely
> >> avoiding "bloat_ware_city"  
> > Personally, I prefer USE="-hyperbole" :)
> >  
> >> But, to avoid pain do keep some minimal 
> >> collection of flags. Python is CRITICAL on gentoo, so ask before 
> >> verging out on Python!  
> > Bear in mind that USE flags control *optional* features and
> > dependencies. Setting USE="-python" will not prevent python being
> > installed, nor will it break portage, but it will "de-bloat" those
> > packages that come with optional python interfaces and bindings.  
> 
> and it might break packages in features in surprising ways.
> 
> People who tell newbies that -* could be used at all, should be flogged.
> 
> In a public place. With video.

:-)
 
> This 'de-bloat' crap - who came up with that?

I hope you realise I was being ironic there, in responding to a "bloat
hater" :)

> People who use it all the
> times seldomly realize that the 'small and unbloated' software they use
> is in a lot of cases neither small, nor not bloated.

Small software can be bloated, large software can be bloat-free. It's all
about what is useful. "functional" != "bloated", but all too often
"lightweight", "bloat free" software can also be described as "limited"
or "functionally challenged".


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Yeah, but what's the speed of dark?

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Alan McKinnon]

On 30/07/2014 20:56, James wrote:
>> Usually it comes from the same headspace that ricing comes from.
> Wow, dude! a serious compliment from one of my many heros!
> 
> Do remember that my knowledge of "ricing" comes from the very coolest
> and early vintige motorcycles:


The word ricing has a fine honourable heritage from way back many years
ago. But lately it means something else altogether :-(

Much like "hacking"

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> Small software can be bloated, large software can be bloat-free. It's all
> about what is useful. "functional" != "bloated", but all too often
> "lightweight", "bloat free" software can also be described as "limited"
> or "functionally challenged".
>
>

That is true.  Some code can be really small and do a lot.   Same can be
said for the opposite.

Maybe this comparison will work.  Small and gets the job done. 
Bicycle.  Bloated.  18 wheeler truck.  If all you want to do is ride a
relatively short distance with no load, bicycle will get the job done.
It won't do well if you want to move 20 tons somewhere tho.  The 18
wheeler truck is good if you need to pull 20 tons somewhere but is a bit
bloated if you are just going to ride up the street to see a neighbor. 
It's also a bit harder to park too.  ;-)

While to me KDE is bloated, I just try to disable what I can and carry
on.  If my system was limited on resources, then I may use something else.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Joost Roeleveld]

On Wednesday 30 July 2014 20:26:48 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 30/07/2014 20:02, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > This 'de-bloat' crap - who came up with that? People who use it all the
> > times seldomly realize that the 'small and unbloated' software they use
> > is in a lot of cases neither small, nor not bloated.
> 
> Usually it comes from the same headspace that ricing comes from. Humans
> are all about perception, very very very few of them can actually look
> at things in an unbiased way. So it goes like this:
> 
> User hates Gnome. [opinion]
> User decides that because Gnome integrates so many things vertically
> then Gnome must necessarily be bloated. [invalid conclusion not backed
> up by facts]
> User decides to try Razor|LXDE|Enlightenment|*box|whatever [valid activity]
> User likes <whatever> [opinion]
> User concludes that <whatever> is therefore "better" than Gnome
> [erronously equate specific opinion with fact for the general case]
> Therefore <whatever> is not bloated and Gnome is, to satisfy wrong
> conclusion at #2 [I can't even begin to think what fallacy this is]
> 
> 
> Not much opinion in any of that.
> We humans are mostly hard-wired to react based on past experience and
> data blindly accepted as fact in the past. 9 times out of 10 this helps
> you leap out of the way of the tiger seeking to have you for lunch. You
> got this ability from dad's genes and it must be raising the odds for
> you and he otherwise he wouldn't have survived long enough to sire you.
> If you stop to think about the tiger, he is for sure going to have a
> nice lunch. So we humans that survived did so by jumping to conclusions
> and having them work out OK on average. This new-fangled idea of
> actually thinking about things all the way through is a very new idea,
> and most of the species hasn't gotten the hang of it yet.

This does still seem to be a valid survival requirement for a large part of 
the worlds population though, including where you are.
For people living in a "so-called" civilized world, tigers are only found 
inside places commonly called a "zoo" :)

> So now you know why ricers swear blind that -pipe in CFLAGS "*doubles*
> the running speed, dude!"

It does!
I enabled -pipe in my CFLAGS and all the software was running a lot faster on 
my new machine compared to my old one ;)

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 30.07.2014 22:18, schrieb Joost Roeleveld:
>> So now you know why ricers swear blind that -pipe in CFLAGS "*doubles*
>> the running speed, dude!"
> It does!
> I enabled -pipe in my CFLAGS and all the software was running a lot faster on 
> my new machine compared to my old one ;)
>
aaaaaaahhhhh ahhhh aaaaaahhh thepainmakeitstop

*g*

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 30.07.2014 21:48, schrieb Dale:
> Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> Small software can be bloated, large software can be bloat-free. It's all
>> about what is useful. "functional" != "bloated", but all too often
>> "lightweight", "bloat free" software can also be described as "limited"
>> or "functionally challenged".
>>
>>
> That is true.  Some code can be really small and do a lot.   Same can be
> said for the opposite.
>
> Maybe this comparison will work.  Small and gets the job done. 
> Bicycle.  Bloated.  18 wheeler truck.  If all you want to do is ride a
> relatively short distance with no load, bicycle will get the job done.
> It won't do well if you want to move 20 tons somewhere tho.  The 18
> wheeler truck is good if you need to pull 20 tons somewhere but is a bit
> bloated if you are just going to ride up the street to see a neighbor. 
> It's also a bit harder to park too.  ;-)
>
> While to me KDE is bloated, I just try to disable what I can and carry
> on.  If my system was limited on resources, then I may use something else.

and maybe you did exactly the wrong thing. KDE is very modular and
reuses its modules as much as it can. Which also means: memory is only
used once.

There were once a very good (in my not so humble opinion. It think very
highly of myself) comparism here:

http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/
(url is dead btw)

and if you actually use kde apps in kde - memory consumption is lower
than in either gnome or 'leightweight' solutions like xfce or
windowmaker+stuff.

http://web.archive.org/web/20071229030604/http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Alan McKinnon]

On 30/07/2014 22:22, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am 30.07.2014 22:18, schrieb Joost Roeleveld:
>>> So now you know why ricers swear blind that -pipe in CFLAGS "*doubles*
>>> the running speed, dude!"
>> It does!
>> I enabled -pipe in my CFLAGS and all the software was running a lot faster on 
>> my new machine compared to my old one ;)
>>
> aaaaaaahhhhh ahhhh aaaaaahhh thepainmakeitstop
> 
> *g*

but but but but, -pipe is Gentoo's go-fast-stripes!

I can see it for myself - my Acer Aspire One and my i7 laptop both have
-pipe enabled and the laptop is soooooooooo much faster at compiling! See?



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 30.07.2014 22:43, schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> On 30/07/2014 22:22, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>> Am 30.07.2014 22:18, schrieb Joost Roeleveld:
>>>> So now you know why ricers swear blind that -pipe in CFLAGS "*doubles*
>>>> the running speed, dude!"
>>> It does!
>>> I enabled -pipe in my CFLAGS and all the software was running a lot faster on 
>>> my new machine compared to my old one ;)
>>>
>> aaaaaaahhhhh ahhhh aaaaaahhh thepainmakeitstop
>>
>> *g*
> but but but but, -pipe is Gentoo's go-fast-stripes!
>
> I can see it for myself - my Acer Aspire One and my i7 laptop both have
> -pipe enabled and the laptop is soooooooooo much faster at compiling! See?
>
>
>
so much pain. so much hatred.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Dale]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> and maybe you did exactly the wrong thing. KDE is very modular and
> reuses its modules as much as it can. Which also means: memory is only
> used once. There were once a very good (in my not so humble opinion.
> It think very highly of myself) comparism here:
> http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/ (url is dead btw) and if you
> actually use kde apps in kde - memory consumption is lower than in
> either gnome or 'leightweight' solutions like xfce or
> windowmaker+stuff.
> http://web.archive.org/web/20071229030604/http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html



The biggest thing for me, is just stuff I don't use or ever see me
needing.  At one point, can't recall version, KDE4 was a bit of a memory
hog.  It seems they have cleaned that up a lot since tho.  Even on my
old rig which had 3GBs of ram and KDE3, it wasn't to bad on memory.  CPU
wise tho, I'd hate to run KDE4 on my old rig.  It is just to slow for
KDE4. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 15:54:07 -0500, Dale wrote:

> The biggest thing for me, is just stuff I don't use or ever see me
> needing.  At one point, can't recall version, KDE4 was a bit of a memory
> hog.  It seems they have cleaned that up a lot since tho.  Even on my
> old rig which had 3GBs of ram and KDE3, it wasn't to bad on memory.  CPU
> wise tho, I'd hate to run KDE4 on my old rig.  It is just to slow for
> KDE4. 

I used to run KDE on a netbook with 2GB and it ran very well. True, LXDE
was faster, but it did less. Not doing stuff faster isn't a benefit in my
book.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Bill Kenworthy]

On 31/07/14 04:22, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am 30.07.2014 22:18, schrieb Joost Roeleveld:
>>> So now you know why ricers swear blind that -pipe in CFLAGS "*doubles*
>>> the running speed, dude!"
>> It does!
>> I enabled -pipe in my CFLAGS and all the software was running a lot faster on 
>> my new machine compared to my old one ;)
>>
> aaaaaaahhhhh ahhhh aaaaaahhh thepainmakeitstop
> 
> *g*
> 

anyone got benchmarks on "-pipe -pipe" ?

more is better, right ...

:)

BillK

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 15:54:07 -0500, Dale wrote:
>
>> The biggest thing for me, is just stuff I don't use or ever see me
>> needing.  At one point, can't recall version, KDE4 was a bit of a memory
>> hog.  It seems they have cleaned that up a lot since tho.  Even on my
>> old rig which had 3GBs of ram and KDE3, it wasn't to bad on memory.  CPU
>> wise tho, I'd hate to run KDE4 on my old rig.  It is just to slow for
>> KDE4. 
> I used to run KDE on a netbook with 2GB and it ran very well. True, LXDE
> was faster, but it did less. Not doing stuff faster isn't a benefit in my
> book.
>
>

That's why I use KDE still.  There are things it does that I like plus
my new rig is fast enough and has plenty of ram.  My old rig tho, not
KDE4.  I don't think I would even try it.  KDE4 is the reason I built
this new rig.

I do have Fluxbox installed tho.  I have been known to use it a few
times too.  It is so fast it is unreal.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Walter Dnes]

On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:31:50PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
> Am 30.07.2014 21:48, schrieb Dale:
>
> > While to me KDE is bloated, I just try to disable what I can and carry
> > on.  If my system was limited on resources, then I may use something else.
> 
> and maybe you did exactly the wrong thing. KDE is very modular and
> reuses its modules as much as it can. Which also means: memory is only
> used once.
> 
> There were once a very good (in my not so humble opinion. It think very
> highly of myself) comparism here:
> 
> http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/
> (url is dead btw)
> 
> and if you actually use kde apps in kde - memory consumption is lower
> than in either gnome or 'leightweight' solutions like xfce or
> windowmaker+stuff.
> 
> http://web.archive.org/web/20071229030604/http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html

  The problem with KDE apps is that they're imitating what MS did with
Internet Explorer.  They pointed to the itsy-bitsy-teeny-weeny little
"ie.exe" that you could delete if you felt like doing so.  They
deliberately obfuscated that it was merely a front end to a ton of
system libraries that you could not remove.   Back when xpdf was being
deprecated, various replacement options were suggested.  I chose mupdf
rather than the KDE app "okular".  Here's why.  After multiple attempts
at "emerge -pv okular", I found I had to add at least the following to
package.use to get it to work...

dev-libs/libattica qt4
media-libs/phonon vlc
media-video/vlc dbus xcb -ffmpeg
dev-qt/qtcore qt3support
dev-qt/qtdeclarative accessibility qt3support
dev-qt/qtgui accessibility qt3support 
dev-qt/qtopengl qt3support
dev-qt/qt3support accessibility
dev-qt/qtsql qt3support sqlite
dev-qt/qtsvg accessibility
sys-libs/ncurses unicode

  Seems that if I want to emerge and use KDE's "pdf reader", I need...

phonon
vlc (or gstreamer)
libmpeg
libmad
net-dns/libidn
dev-qt/qtwebkit

...***FOR A STINKING PDF READER***.  Here's the "emerge -pv okular"
output with USE flag listings edited out...

[d531][waltdnes][~] emerge -pv okular | sed " s/USE.*$//"

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies  .... done!
[ebuild   R    ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r3:5  
[ebuild  N     ] net-dns/libidn-1.28  
[ebuild  N     ] kde-base/kde-env-4.12.5:4/4.12  
[ebuild  N     ] dev-libs/libpcre-8.35:3  
[ebuild  N     ] app-admin/eselect-qtgraphicssystem-1.1.1  0 kB
[ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtcore-4.8.5-r2:4  
[ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtscript-4.8.5:4  
[ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtgui-4.8.5-r3:4  
[ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtsql-4.8.5:4  
[ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qt3support-4.8.5:4  
[ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtdbus-4.8.5:4  
[ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtsvg-4.8.5:4  
[ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qttest-4.8.5:4  
[ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/designer-4.8.5:4  
[ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtopengl-4.8.5:4  
[ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtxmlpatterns-4.8.5:4  
[ebuild  N     ] app-crypt/qca-2.0.3:2  
[ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtwebkit-4.8.5:4  
[ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtdeclarative-4.8.5:4  
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/libXScrnSaver-1.2.2-r1  
[ebuild  N     ] media-libs/libmpeg2-0.5.1-r2  
[ebuild  N     ] media-libs/libmad-0.15.1b-r7  
[ebuild  N     ] media-video/vlc-2.1.2:0/5-7  
[ebuild  N     ] dev-util/automoc-0.9.88  9 kB
[ebuild  N     ] kde-base/oxygen-icons-4.12.5:4/4.12  
[ebuild  N     ] media-libs/qimageblitz-0.0.6-r1  
[ebuild  N     ] dev-libs/libattica-0.4.2  
[ebuild  N     ] dev-libs/libdbusmenu-qt-0.9.2  
[ebuild  N     ] app-misc/strigi-0.7.8  
[ebuild  N     ] media-libs/phonon-4.6.0-r1  
[ebuild  N     ] media-libs/phonon-vlc-0.6.2  
[ebuild  N     ] kde-base/kdelibs-4.12.5-r1:4/4.12  
[ebuild  N     ] kde-base/katepart-4.12.5:4/4.12  
[ebuild  N     ] kde-base/libkexiv2-4.12.5:4/4.12  
[ebuild  N     ] kde-base/okular-4.12.5-r1:4/4.12  

Total: 35 packages (34 new, 1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 309,990 kB


-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 31.07.2014 02:26, schrieb Dale:
> Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 15:54:07 -0500, Dale wrote:
>>
>>> The biggest thing for me, is just stuff I don't use or ever see me
>>> needing.  At one point, can't recall version, KDE4 was a bit of a memory
>>> hog.  It seems they have cleaned that up a lot since tho.  Even on my
>>> old rig which had 3GBs of ram and KDE3, it wasn't to bad on memory.  CPU
>>> wise tho, I'd hate to run KDE4 on my old rig.  It is just to slow for
>>> KDE4. 
>> I used to run KDE on a netbook with 2GB and it ran very well. True, LXDE
>> was faster, but it did less. Not doing stuff faster isn't a benefit in my
>> book.
>>
>>
> That's why I use KDE still.  There are things it does that I like plus
> my new rig is fast enough and has plenty of ram.  My old rig tho, not
> KDE4.  I don't think I would even try it.  KDE4 is the reason I built
> this new rig.
>
> I do have Fluxbox installed tho.  I have been known to use it a few
> times too.  It is so fast it is unreal.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>
>
>
I occasionally tried razorqt or enlightenment or twm...

and yeah, they load quickly. And then they are all useless for me.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 31.07.2014 03:55, schrieb Walter Dnes:
> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:31:50PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
>> Am 30.07.2014 21:48, schrieb Dale:
>>
>>> While to me KDE is bloated, I just try to disable what I can and carry
>>> on.  If my system was limited on resources, then I may use something else.
>> and maybe you did exactly the wrong thing. KDE is very modular and
>> reuses its modules as much as it can. Which also means: memory is only
>> used once.
>>
>> There were once a very good (in my not so humble opinion. It think very
>> highly of myself) comparism here:
>>
>> http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/
>> (url is dead btw)
>>
>> and if you actually use kde apps in kde - memory consumption is lower
>> than in either gnome or 'leightweight' solutions like xfce or
>> windowmaker+stuff.
>>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20071229030604/http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html
>   The problem with KDE apps is that they're imitating what MS did with
> Internet Explorer.  They pointed to the itsy-bitsy-teeny-weeny little
> "ie.exe" that you could delete if you felt like doing so.  They
> deliberately obfuscated that it was merely a front end to a ton of
> system libraries that you could not remove.   Back when xpdf was being
> deprecated, various replacement options were suggested.  I chose mupdf
> rather than the KDE app "okular".  Here's why.  After multiple attempts
> at "emerge -pv okular", I found I had to add at least the following to
> package.use to get it to work...
>
> dev-libs/libattica qt4
> media-libs/phonon vlc
> media-video/vlc dbus xcb -ffmpeg
> dev-qt/qtcore qt3support
> dev-qt/qtdeclarative accessibility qt3support
> dev-qt/qtgui accessibility qt3support 
> dev-qt/qtopengl qt3support
> dev-qt/qt3support accessibility
> dev-qt/qtsql qt3support sqlite
> dev-qt/qtsvg accessibility
> sys-libs/ncurses unicode
>
>   Seems that if I want to emerge and use KDE's "pdf reader", I need...
>
> phonon
> vlc (or gstreamer)
> libmpeg
> libmad
> net-dns/libidn
> dev-qt/qtwebkit
>
> ...***FOR A STINKING PDF READER***.  Here's the "emerge -pv okular"

okular is not a 'stinking pdf reader'. Nice try. But just like konqueror
it is just a wrapper around kparts and is able to deal with a lot more
files than just pdf and postscript.

That is what 'modular' and 'code reuse' really means.

And the opposite to what gnome does. 'oh, there is an app. Hijack it and
gnomify it and make it dependent on 2 douzend gnome libs that all do the
same but nobody ever cleaned up'.


> output with USE flag listings edited out...

you know - useflags or tree would have been so much more meaningful...
>
> [d531][waltdnes][~] emerge -pv okular | sed " s/USE.*$//"
>
> These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
>
> Calculating dependencies  .... done!
> [ebuild   R    ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r3:5  
> [ebuild  N     ] net-dns/libidn-1.28  
> [ebuild  N     ] kde-base/kde-env-4.12.5:4/4.12  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-libs/libpcre-8.35:3  
> [ebuild  N     ] app-admin/eselect-qtgraphicssystem-1.1.1  0 kB
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtcore-4.8.5-r2:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtscript-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtgui-4.8.5-r3:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtsql-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qt3support-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtdbus-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtsvg-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qttest-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/designer-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtopengl-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtxmlpatterns-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] app-crypt/qca-2.0.3:2  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtwebkit-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtdeclarative-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/libXScrnSaver-1.2.2-r1  
> [ebuild  N     ] media-libs/libmpeg2-0.5.1-r2  
> [ebuild  N     ] media-libs/libmad-0.15.1b-r7  
> [ebuild  N     ] media-video/vlc-2.1.2:0/5-7  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-util/automoc-0.9.88  9 kB
> [ebuild  N     ] kde-base/oxygen-icons-4.12.5:4/4.12  
> [ebuild  N     ] media-libs/qimageblitz-0.0.6-r1  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-libs/libattica-0.4.2  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-libs/libdbusmenu-qt-0.9.2  
> [ebuild  N     ] app-misc/strigi-0.7.8  
> [ebuild  N     ] media-libs/phonon-4.6.0-r1  
> [ebuild  N     ] media-libs/phonon-vlc-0.6.2  
> [ebuild  N     ] kde-base/kdelibs-4.12.5-r1:4/4.12  
> [ebuild  N     ] kde-base/katepart-4.12.5:4/4.12  
> [ebuild  N     ] kde-base/libkexiv2-4.12.5:4/4.12  
> [ebuild  N     ] kde-base/okular-4.12.5-r1:4/4.12  
>
> Total: 35 packages (34 new, 1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 309,990 kB
>
>

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Alec Ten Harmsel]

> okular is not a 'stinking pdf reader'. Nice try. But just like konqueror
> it is just a wrapper around kparts and is able to deal with a lot more
> files than just pdf and postscript.
>
> That is what 'modular' and 'code reuse' really means.
>
> And the opposite to what gnome does. 'oh, there is an app. Hijack it and
> gnomify it and make it dependent on 2 douzend gnome libs that all do the
> same but nobody ever cleaned up'.

You're right about the code reuse if you're running KDE, but I'd rather
not install *all* of Qt and a bunch of other crap just to view PDFs and
such. I think that's all he's arguing.

I love having KDE on my desktop (and okular is really nice), but on my
laptop (i3wm) I spend the vast majority of my time in vim and on the
terminal and shouldn't have to essentially install KDE to view a PDF
when I need to check some LaTeX formatting. Just contrast with evince; I
disabled nautilus integration, and my machine only has 5 gnome packages,
2 of which are icon sets.

Alec

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Walter Dnes]

On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 04:41:24AM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote

> I occasionally tried razorqt or enlightenment or twm...
> and yeah, they load quickly. And then they are all useless for me.

  I run ICEWM with 9 work areas dedicated to specific "tasks" or forums.
A desktop environment doesn't provide me that much extra functionality.
I suppose some of my inertia is due to starting to use ICEWM and *BOX
back when I had a Dell with 256 megabytes of RAM and an 8-megabyte ATI
video card.  That machine lasted for 7 years or so.  My current one is
over 6 years old.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Alan McKinnon]

On 31/07/2014 03:55, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:31:50PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
>> Am 30.07.2014 21:48, schrieb Dale:
>>
>>> While to me KDE is bloated, I just try to disable what I can and carry
>>> on.  If my system was limited on resources, then I may use something else.
>>
>> and maybe you did exactly the wrong thing. KDE is very modular and
>> reuses its modules as much as it can. Which also means: memory is only
>> used once.
>>
>> There were once a very good (in my not so humble opinion. It think very
>> highly of myself) comparism here:
>>
>> http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/
>> (url is dead btw)
>>
>> and if you actually use kde apps in kde - memory consumption is lower
>> than in either gnome or 'leightweight' solutions like xfce or
>> windowmaker+stuff.
>>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20071229030604/http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html
> 
>   The problem with KDE apps is that they're imitating what MS did with
> Internet Explorer.  They pointed to the itsy-bitsy-teeny-weeny little
> "ie.exe" that you could delete if you felt like doing so.  They
> deliberately obfuscated that it was merely a front end to a ton of
> system libraries that you could not remove.   Back when xpdf was being
> deprecated, various replacement options were suggested.  I chose mupdf
> rather than the KDE app "okular".  Here's why.  After multiple attempts
> at "emerge -pv okular", I found I had to add at least the following to
> package.use to get it to work...
> 
> dev-libs/libattica qt4
> media-libs/phonon vlc
> media-video/vlc dbus xcb -ffmpeg
> dev-qt/qtcore qt3support
> dev-qt/qtdeclarative accessibility qt3support
> dev-qt/qtgui accessibility qt3support 
> dev-qt/qtopengl qt3support
> dev-qt/qt3support accessibility
> dev-qt/qtsql qt3support sqlite
> dev-qt/qtsvg accessibility
> sys-libs/ncurses unicode
> 
>   Seems that if I want to emerge and use KDE's "pdf reader", I need...
> 
> phonon
> vlc (or gstreamer)
> libmpeg
> libmad
> net-dns/libidn
> dev-qt/qtwebkit
> 
> ...***FOR A STINKING PDF READER***.  Here's the "emerge -pv okular"
> output with USE flag listings edited out...
> 
> [d531][waltdnes][~] emerge -pv okular | sed " s/USE.*$//"
> 
> These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
> 
> Calculating dependencies  .... done!
> [ebuild   R    ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r3:5  
> [ebuild  N     ] net-dns/libidn-1.28  
> [ebuild  N     ] kde-base/kde-env-4.12.5:4/4.12  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-libs/libpcre-8.35:3  
> [ebuild  N     ] app-admin/eselect-qtgraphicssystem-1.1.1  0 kB
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtcore-4.8.5-r2:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtscript-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtgui-4.8.5-r3:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtsql-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qt3support-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtdbus-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtsvg-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qttest-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/designer-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtopengl-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtxmlpatterns-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] app-crypt/qca-2.0.3:2  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtwebkit-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtdeclarative-4.8.5:4  
> [ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/libXScrnSaver-1.2.2-r1  
> [ebuild  N     ] media-libs/libmpeg2-0.5.1-r2  
> [ebuild  N     ] media-libs/libmad-0.15.1b-r7  
> [ebuild  N     ] media-video/vlc-2.1.2:0/5-7  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-util/automoc-0.9.88  9 kB
> [ebuild  N     ] kde-base/oxygen-icons-4.12.5:4/4.12  
> [ebuild  N     ] media-libs/qimageblitz-0.0.6-r1  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-libs/libattica-0.4.2  
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-libs/libdbusmenu-qt-0.9.2  
> [ebuild  N     ] app-misc/strigi-0.7.8  
> [ebuild  N     ] media-libs/phonon-4.6.0-r1  
> [ebuild  N     ] media-libs/phonon-vlc-0.6.2  
> [ebuild  N     ] kde-base/kdelibs-4.12.5-r1:4/4.12  
> [ebuild  N     ] kde-base/katepart-4.12.5:4/4.12  
> [ebuild  N     ] kde-base/libkexiv2-4.12.5:4/4.12  
> [ebuild  N     ] kde-base/okular-4.12.5-r1:4/4.12  
> 
> Total: 35 packages (34 new, 1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 309,990 kB
> 
> 


I'm going to take issue with this post.

Walter, you have completely misjudged what KDE is designed to do and are
blaming it unfairly. KDE apps are not designed to run in isolation -
they run in a greater context. That context is the KDE system.

It was designed with the view that an app like okular will be installed
alongside other similar apps that let you deal with other filetypes.
Like audio, video, graphics, text. And so on. To do this, it needs the
libs it is built on. And it needs a graphics toolkit - Qt. The reason
you got such a long list of packages to install is because you do not
have any Qt installed at all.

If you did not have any X installed at all and wanted to emerge xpdf you
would get a similar long list for exactly the same reason.

The point I'm trying to make is that KDe was not designed with you in
mind. KDE could never work for you because of your viewpoint and that
viewpoint is in your sig. So please stop blaming KDE for doing what KDE
does correctly and well. Just realise that you are not the target audience.

As an analogy most of the world wants a sedan so Toyota makes the Yaris
for them. You have decided you don't want a sedan but you do want a
crotch rocket, so Honda makes a CBR1000 you might like. Or if acting
like Rossi doesn't appeal, they also make nice adventure bikes. But that
doesn't make the Yaris wrong.



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Dale]

Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 04:41:24AM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
>
>> I occasionally tried razorqt or enlightenment or twm...
>> and yeah, they load quickly. And then they are all useless for me.
>   I run ICEWM with 9 work areas dedicated to specific "tasks" or forums.
> A desktop environment doesn't provide me that much extra functionality.
> I suppose some of my inertia is due to starting to use ICEWM and *BOX
> back when I had a Dell with 256 megabytes of RAM and an 8-megabyte ATI
> video card.  That machine lasted for 7 years or so.  My current one is
> over 6 years old.
>

On a rig that has limited resources, you are doing what I would do as
well, outside the USE="-*" thing.  :-D  I would use Fluxbox or some
other very light GUI.  I'd keep it simple so that when I click
something, I don't have to go get a drink while I am waiting.  And in
some cases, have plenty of time to drink it as well. 

What a person uses has to be based on what it is being used on and what
the user expects.  All about balance.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Alan McKinnon]

On 31/07/2014 09:23, Dale wrote:
> Walter Dnes wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 04:41:24AM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
>>
>>> I occasionally tried razorqt or enlightenment or twm...
>>> and yeah, they load quickly. And then they are all useless for me.
>>   I run ICEWM with 9 work areas dedicated to specific "tasks" or forums.
>> A desktop environment doesn't provide me that much extra functionality.
>> I suppose some of my inertia is due to starting to use ICEWM and *BOX
>> back when I had a Dell with 256 megabytes of RAM and an 8-megabyte ATI
>> video card.  That machine lasted for 7 years or so.  My current one is
>> over 6 years old.
>>
> 
> On a rig that has limited resources, you are doing what I would do as
> well, outside the USE="-*" thing.  :-D  I would use Fluxbox or some
> other very light GUI.  I'd keep it simple so that when I click
> something, I don't have to go get a drink while I am waiting.  And in
> some cases, have plenty of time to drink it as well. 
> 
> What a person uses has to be based on what it is being used on and what
> the user expects.  All about balance.



There's a huge difference between recognizing a resource-constrained
machine and acting appropriately on the one hand, and ranting about
bloat on the other.

One usually involves sensible thought, the other usually doesn't.



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[J. Roeleveld]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5597 bytes --]

On Thursday, July 31, 2014 08:34:09 AM Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 31/07/2014 03:55, Walter Dnes wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:31:50PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann 
wrote
> > 
> >> Am 30.07.2014 21:48, schrieb Dale:
> >>> While to me KDE is bloated, I just try to disable what I can and carry
> >>> on.  If my system was limited on resources, then I may use 
something
> >>> else.
> >> 
> >> and maybe you did exactly the wrong thing. KDE is very modular and
> >> reuses its modules as much as it can. Which also means: memory is 
only
> >> used once.
> >> 
> >> There were once a very good (in my not so humble opinion. It think 
very
> >> highly of myself) comparism here:
> >> 
> >> http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/
> >> (url is dead btw)
> >> 
> >> and if you actually use kde apps in kde - memory consumption is 
lower
> >> than in either gnome or 'leightweight' solutions like xfce or
> >> windowmaker+stuff.
> >> 
> >> 
http://web.archive.org/web/20071229030604/http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/me
mo
> >> ry/desktop_benchmark.html>> 
> >   The problem with KDE apps is that they're imitating what MS did with
> > 
> > Internet Explorer.  They pointed to the itsy-bitsy-teeny-weeny little
> > "ie.exe" that you could delete if you felt like doing so.  They
> > deliberately obfuscated that it was merely a front end to a ton of
> > system libraries that you could not remove.   Back when xpdf was 
being
> > deprecated, various replacement options were suggested.  I chose 
mupdf
> > rather than the KDE app "okular".  Here's why.  After multiple attempts
> > at "emerge -pv okular", I found I had to add at least the following to
> > package.use to get it to work...
> > 
> > dev-libs/libattica qt4
> > media-libs/phonon vlc
> > media-video/vlc dbus xcb -ffmpeg
> > dev-qt/qtcore qt3support
> > dev-qt/qtdeclarative accessibility qt3support
> > dev-qt/qtgui accessibility qt3support
> > dev-qt/qtopengl qt3support
> > dev-qt/qt3support accessibility
> > dev-qt/qtsql qt3support sqlite
> > dev-qt/qtsvg accessibility
> > sys-libs/ncurses unicode
> > 
> >   Seems that if I want to emerge and use KDE's "pdf reader", I need...
> > 
> > phonon
> > vlc (or gstreamer)
> > libmpeg
> > libmad
> > net-dns/libidn
> > dev-qt/qtwebkit
> > 
> > ...***FOR A STINKING PDF READER***.  Here's the "emerge -pv okular"
> > output with USE flag listings edited out...
> > 
> > [d531][waltdnes][~] emerge -pv okular | sed " s/USE.*$//"
> > 
> > These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
> > 
> > Calculating dependencies  .... done!
> > [ebuild   R    ] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r3:5
> > [ebuild  N     ] net-dns/libidn-1.28
> > [ebuild  N     ] kde-base/kde-env-4.12.5:4/4.12
> > [ebuild  N     ] dev-libs/libpcre-8.35:3
> > [ebuild  N     ] app-admin/eselect-qtgraphicssystem-1.1.1  0 kB
> > [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtcore-4.8.5-r2:4
> > [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtscript-4.8.5:4
> > [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtgui-4.8.5-r3:4
> > [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtsql-4.8.5:4
> > [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qt3support-4.8.5:4
> > [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtdbus-4.8.5:4
> > [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtsvg-4.8.5:4
> > [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qttest-4.8.5:4
> > [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/designer-4.8.5:4
> > [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtopengl-4.8.5:4
> > [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtxmlpatterns-4.8.5:4
> > [ebuild  N     ] app-crypt/qca-2.0.3:2
> > [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtwebkit-4.8.5:4
> > [ebuild  N     ] dev-qt/qtdeclarative-4.8.5:4
> > [ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/libXScrnSaver-1.2.2-r1
> > [ebuild  N     ] media-libs/libmpeg2-0.5.1-r2
> > [ebuild  N     ] media-libs/libmad-0.15.1b-r7
> > [ebuild  N     ] media-video/vlc-2.1.2:0/5-7
> > [ebuild  N     ] dev-util/automoc-0.9.88  9 kB
> > [ebuild  N     ] kde-base/oxygen-icons-4.12.5:4/4.12
> > [ebuild  N     ] media-libs/qimageblitz-0.0.6-r1
> > [ebuild  N     ] dev-libs/libattica-0.4.2
> > [ebuild  N     ] dev-libs/libdbusmenu-qt-0.9.2
> > [ebuild  N     ] app-misc/strigi-0.7.8
> > [ebuild  N     ] media-libs/phonon-4.6.0-r1
> > [ebuild  N     ] media-libs/phonon-vlc-0.6.2
> > [ebuild  N     ] kde-base/kdelibs-4.12.5-r1:4/4.12
> > [ebuild  N     ] kde-base/katepart-4.12.5:4/4.12
> > [ebuild  N     ] kde-base/libkexiv2-4.12.5:4/4.12
> > [ebuild  N     ] kde-base/okular-4.12.5-r1:4/4.12
> > 
> > Total: 35 packages (34 new, 1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 309,990 
kB
> 
> I'm going to take issue with this post.
> 
> Walter, you have completely misjudged what KDE is designed to do and 
are
> blaming it unfairly. KDE apps are not designed to run in isolation -
> they run in a greater context. That context is the KDE system.
> 
> It was designed with the view that an app like okular will be installed
> alongside other similar apps that let you deal with other filetypes.
> Like audio, video, graphics, text. And so on. To do this, it needs the
> libs it is built on. And it needs a graphics toolkit - Qt. The reason
> you got such a long list of packages to install is because you do not
> have any Qt installed at all.
> 
> If you did not have any X installed at all and wanted to emerge xpdf you
> would get a similar long list for exactly the same reason.
> 
> The point I'm trying to make is that KDe was not designed with you in
> mind. KDE could never work for you because of your viewpoint and that
> viewpoint is in your sig. So please stop blaming KDE for doing what KDE
> does correctly and well. Just realise that you are not the target 
audience.

+1

I quite like KDE and it worked quite well on my old netboot (Asus EEE 901 
with 16GB SSD and 1GB ram)

> As an analogy most of the world wants a sedan so Toyota makes the 
Yaris

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 31.07.2014 05:50, schrieb Alec Ten Harmsel:
>> okular is not a 'stinking pdf reader'. Nice try. But just like konqueror
>> it is just a wrapper around kparts and is able to deal with a lot more
>> files than just pdf and postscript.
>>
>> That is what 'modular' and 'code reuse' really means.
>>
>> And the opposite to what gnome does. 'oh, there is an app. Hijack it and
>> gnomify it and make it dependent on 2 douzend gnome libs that all do the
>> same but nobody ever cleaned up'.
> You're right about the code reuse if you're running KDE, but I'd rather
> not install *all* of Qt and a bunch of other crap just to view PDFs and
> such. I think that's all he's arguing.

well, do you complain if you have to install *all* of gtk + gnome
objects+introspection+gconf?
>
> I love having KDE on my desktop (and okular is really nice), but on my
> laptop (i3wm) I spend the vast majority of my time in vim and on the
> terminal and shouldn't have to essentially install KDE to view a PDF
> when I need to check some LaTeX formatting. Just contrast with evince; I
> disabled nautilus integration, and my machine only has 5 gnome packages,
> 2 of which are icon sets.
>
> Alec
>
> .
>

how much do you have to install if you deactivate all use flags for
okular? well, you still have all of qt...  and kdelibs and phonon... but
you would loose a lot of the other stuff. vlc support in phonon is as
optional as tiff or chm in okular.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[J. Roeleveld]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2544 bytes --]

Clicked send too soon...

On Thursday, July 31, 2014 10:32:34 AM J. Roeleveld wrote:
> On Thursday, July 31, 2014 08:34:09 AM Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > On 31/07/2014 03:55, Walter Dnes wrote:

<snipped>

> > >   Seems that if I want to emerge and use KDE's "pdf reader", I 
need...
> > > 
> > > phonon
> > > vlc (or gstreamer)
> > > libmpeg
> > > libmad
> > > net-dns/libidn
> > > dev-qt/qtwebkit
> > > 
> > > ...***FOR A STINKING PDF READER***.  Here's the "emerge -pv okular"
> > > output with USE flag listings edited out...
> > > 
> > > [d531][waltdnes][~] emerge -pv okular | sed " s/USE.*$//"
> > > 
> > > These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Total: 35 packages (34 new, 1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 309,990
> 
> kB
> 
> > I'm going to take issue with this post.
> > 
> > Walter, you have completely misjudged what KDE is designed to do 
and
> 
> are
> 
> > blaming it unfairly. KDE apps are not designed to run in isolation -
> > they run in a greater context. That context is the KDE system.
> > 
> > It was designed with the view that an app like okular will be installed
> > alongside other similar apps that let you deal with other filetypes.
> > Like audio, video, graphics, text. And so on. To do this, it needs the
> > libs it is built on. And it needs a graphics toolkit - Qt. The reason
> > you got such a long list of packages to install is because you do not
> > have any Qt installed at all.
> > 
> > If you did not have any X installed at all and wanted to emerge xpdf 
you
> > would get a similar long list for exactly the same reason.
> > 
> > The point I'm trying to make is that KDe was not designed with you in
> > mind. KDE could never work for you because of your viewpoint and that
> > viewpoint is in your sig. So please stop blaming KDE for doing what 
KDE
> > does correctly and well. Just realise that you are not the target
> > audience.

 +1

I quite like KDE and it worked quite well on my old netboot (Asus EEE 901
with 16GB SSD and 1GB ram)

This worked quite well for me, until the mainboard fried...

> > As an analogy most of the world wants a sedan so Toyota makes the 
Yaris
> > for them.

Actually, because governments are trying to get people to move into 
smaller cars, car companies ended up with motorised shopping carts like 
the Yaris.

People who actually need to travel a lot on motorways do tend to prefer 
slightly bigger cars like a VW Golf, Ford Focus or Peugeot 308.
People with smaller budgets then end up with the Polo, Fiesta or 208.

--
Joost

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Peter Humphrey]

On Wednesday 30 July 2014 23:50:51 Alec Ten Harmsel wrote:

> I love having KDE on my desktop (and okular is really nice), but on my
> laptop (i3wm) I spend the vast majority of my time in vim and on the
> terminal and shouldn't have to essentially install KDE to view a PDF
> when I need to check some LaTeX formatting.

So on that box you wouldn't choose a KDE program. Simple.

-- 
Regards
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 488 bytes --]

On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 04:41:24 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> I occasionally tried razorqt or enlightenment or twm...
> 
> and yeah, they load quickly. And then they are all useless for me.

That's basically my experience. I'm impressed with the speed then find I
can't do what I want because the DE just can't do it.

It may not do what I want, but at least it doesn't do it at great speed :(


-- 
Neil Bothwick

When puns are outlawed only outlaws will have puns.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Alec Ten Harmsel]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


>>> okular is not a 'stinking pdf reader'. Nice try. But just like konqueror
>>> it is just a wrapper around kparts and is able to deal with a lot more
>>> files than just pdf and postscript.
>>>
>>> That is what 'modular' and 'code reuse' really means.
>>>
>>> And the opposite to what gnome does. 'oh, there is an app. Hijack it and
>>> gnomify it and make it dependent on 2 douzend gnome libs that all do the
>>> same but nobody ever cleaned up'.
>> You're right about the code reuse if you're running KDE, but I'd rather
>> not install *all* of Qt and a bunch of other crap just to view PDFs and
>> such. I think that's all he's arguing.
>
> well, do you complain if you have to install *all* of gtk + gnome
> objects+introspection+gconf?
>>
>> I love having KDE on my desktop (and okular is really nice), but on my
>> laptop (i3wm) I spend the vast majority of my time in vim and on the
>> terminal and shouldn't have to essentially install KDE to view a PDF
>> when I need to check some LaTeX formatting. Just contrast with evince; I
>> disabled nautilus integration, and my machine only has 5 gnome packages,
>> 2 of which are icon sets.
>>
>> Alec
>>
>> .
>>
>
> how much do you have to install if you deactivate all use flags for
> okular? well, you still have all of qt...  and kdelibs and phonon... but
> you would loose a lot of the other stuff. vlc support in phonon is as
> optional as tiff or chm in okular.
>
Alright, you got me there. I was a little over-dosed on coffee when I
wrote that. I forgot about gtk since I already had a gtk app or two when
I installed evince.

> So on that box you wouldn't choose a KDE program. Simple.

Yes, it was simple. Everything on gentoo is just soooo simple ;)

I think this is the first discussion about desktop environments I've
ever seen that hasn't degenerated into a complete flame war. I love this
list.

Alec
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Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Frank Steinmetzger]

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On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 09:34:04PM +0430, behrouz khosravi wrote:
> Hello everyone.
> […]
> Now I am thinking about managing USE flags.
> […]
> I am not trying to have severe control, I just want to expand my knowledge!
> thanks.

In such cases I tend to suggest installing ufed. 'tis a UI for setting use
flags. Not only does it show you the description of every flag and whether
it's local (used by only one or a few programs). It also shows you if it is
enabled (+ sign), disabled (- sign) or not touched (empty) and whether that
setting comes from the profile (parens) or your own setup (brackets).
-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla’
Please do not share anything from, with or about me with any Facebook service.

“If my wife doesn’t hear it, am I still wrong?” – Philosoraptor

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Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[behrouz khosravi]

On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 5:35 PM, Frank Steinmetzger <Warp_7@gmx.de> wrote:
> In such cases I tend to suggest installing ufed...

Seems really handy. Thanks.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Alan McKinnon]

On 31/07/2014 12:45, Alec Ten Harmsel wrote:
>> So on that box you wouldn't choose a KDE program. Simple.
> Yes, it was simple. Everything on gentoo is just soooo simple ;)
> 
> I think this is the first discussion about desktop environments I've
> ever seen that hasn't degenerated into a complete flame war. I love this
> list.



Just wait till Neil, me and a few others swing the topic over to WW II
fighter aircraft. The flames will start then.



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[J. Roeleveld]

On 31 July 2014 15:37:51 CEST, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 31/07/2014 12:45, Alec Ten Harmsel wrote:
>>> So on that box you wouldn't choose a KDE program. Simple.
>> Yes, it was simple. Everything on gentoo is just soooo simple ;)
>> 
>> I think this is the first discussion about desktop environments I've
>> ever seen that hasn't degenerated into a complete flame war. I love
>this
>> list.
>
>
>
>Just wait till Neil, me and a few others swing the topic over to WW II
>fighter aircraft. The flames will start then.

Speaking of which...
One of my wishlist items is a fully functional B25. Would be great during parties with children around :)

--
Joost
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 16:16:06 +0200, J. Roeleveld wrote:

> >Just wait till Neil, me and a few others swing the topic over to WW II
> >fighter aircraft. The flames will start then.  
> 
> Speaking of which...
> One of my wishlist items is a fully functional B25. Would be great
> during parties with children around :)

The B25 was a bomber, please try to stay on topic :P


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Rainbows are just to look at, not to really understand.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 15:33:38 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote:

> > >Just wait till Neil, me and a few others swing the topic over to WW
> > >II fighter aircraft. The flames will start then.    
> > 
> > Speaking of which...
> > One of my wishlist items is a fully functional B25. Would be great
> > during parties with children around :)  
> 
> The B25 was a bomber, please try to stay on topic :P

Unless you meant Blackburn B-25, but then you'd need the carrier to go
with it, and ships are definitely off topic.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Three kinds of people: those who can count and those who can't.

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Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[the]

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> In such cases I tend to suggest installing ufed.

equery from gentoolkit works for me

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[J. Roeleveld]

On 31 July 2014 16:33:38 CEST, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 16:16:06 +0200, J. Roeleveld wrote:
>
>> >Just wait till Neil, me and a few others swing the topic over to WW
>II
>> >fighter aircraft. The flames will start then.  
>> 
>> Speaking of which...
>> One of my wishlist items is a fully functional B25. Would be great
>> during parties with children around :)
>
>The B25 was a bomber, please try to stay on topic :P

Last off topic one about planes in this thread.

A model version is fun to drop stuff from for kids to collect after the bombing run....
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Walter Dnes]

On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 10:47:29AM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote

> how much do you have to install if you deactivate all use flags for
> okular? well, you still have all of qt...  and kdelibs and phonon... but
> you would loose a lot of the other stuff. vlc support in phonon is as
> optional as tiff or chm in okular.

  When reading pdf files, one expects images, so tiff and jpeg are
reasonable flags.  One does *NOT* expect audio stuff like phonon.  And
phonon *DEMANDS SOMETHING*.  vlc is one of the options that satisfies
phonon's demands.  Or you could choose gstreamer and its gazillion plugins.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Peter Humphrey]

On Thursday 31 July 2014 15:37:51 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 31/07/2014 12:45, Alec Ten Harmsel wrote:
> >> So on that box you wouldn't choose a KDE program. Simple.
> > 
> > Yes, it was simple. Everything on gentoo is just soooo simple ;)
> > 
> > I think this is the first discussion about desktop environments I've
> > ever seen that hasn't degenerated into a complete flame war. I love this
> > list.
> 
> Just wait till Neil, me and a few others swing the topic over to WW II
> fighter aircraft. The flames will start then.

Ooh, the temptation ...

-- 
Regards
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Philip Webb]

140731 Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 10:47:29AM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
> When reading pdf files, one expects images, so tiff and jpeg are
> reasonable flags.  One does *NOT* expect audio stuff like phonon.
> And phonon *DEMANDS SOMETHING*.  vlc is one of the options that satisfies
> phonon's demands.  Or you could choose gstreamer and its gazillion plugins.

Not quite (smile) ! -- I ran into this & sent bugs to Gentoo + KDE ;
the outcome was that I discovered that Phonon doesn't in fact demand
that you install the actual sound software :
it works to do 'USE="gstreamer" --nodeps emerge phonon'
& Kdelibs then compiles successfully as well.

If you compile KDE outside Portage, there's a "nosound" flag,
but the Gentoo devs have implemented that to require 'USE=<soundpkg>",
perhaps knowing that it cb happily ignored via '--nodeps'.
Just don't expect this to be documented anywere (grimace).

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Alan McKinnon]

On 01/08/2014 05:16, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 10:47:29AM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
> 
>> how much do you have to install if you deactivate all use flags for
>> okular? well, you still have all of qt...  and kdelibs and phonon... but
>> you would loose a lot of the other stuff. vlc support in phonon is as
>> optional as tiff or chm in okular.
> 
>   When reading pdf files, one expects images, so tiff and jpeg are
> reasonable flags.  One does *NOT* expect audio stuff like phonon.  And
> phonon *DEMANDS SOMETHING*.  vlc is one of the options that satisfies
> phonon's demands.  Or you could choose gstreamer and its gazillion plugins.
> 


I have no idea what you are talking about.

[I] kde-base/okular
     Available versions:  (4) 4.12.5-r1(4/4.12)^t (~)4.13.3(4/4.13)^t
       {aqua chm crypt debug djvu dpi ebook +handbook +jpeg mobi +pdf
+postscript +tiff}


There's nothing in there about audio or video. There's only images and
of those only 4 rational ones are enabled by default plus the help system.

So what is the real problem exactly again?



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 01.08.2014 05:16, schrieb Walter Dnes:
> On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 10:47:29AM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
>
>> how much do you have to install if you deactivate all use flags for
>> okular? well, you still have all of qt...  and kdelibs and phonon... but
>> you would loose a lot of the other stuff. vlc support in phonon is as
>> optional as tiff or chm in okular.
>   When reading pdf files, one expects images, so tiff and jpeg are
> reasonable flags.  One does *NOT* expect audio stuff like phonon.  And
> phonon *DEMANDS SOMETHING*.  vlc is one of the options that satisfies
> phonon's demands.  Or you could choose gstreamer and its gazillion plugins.
>

phonon is not an okular dependency.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[J. Roeleveld]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1216 bytes --]

On Friday, August 01, 2014 12:26:59 PM Philip Webb wrote:
> 140731 Walter Dnes wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 10:47:29AM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann 
wrote
> > When reading pdf files, one expects images, so tiff and jpeg are
> > reasonable flags.  One does *NOT* expect audio stuff like phonon.
> > And phonon *DEMANDS SOMETHING*.  vlc is one of the options that 
satisfies
> > phonon's demands.  Or you could choose gstreamer and its gazillion
> > plugins.
> 
> Not quite (smile) ! -- I ran into this & sent bugs to Gentoo + KDE ;
> the outcome was that I discovered that Phonon doesn't in fact demand
> that you install the actual sound software :
> it works to do 'USE="gstreamer" --nodeps emerge phonon'
> & Kdelibs then compiles successfully as well.
> 
> If you compile KDE outside Portage, there's a "nosound" flag,
> but the Gentoo devs have implemented that to require 
'USE=<soundpkg>",
> perhaps knowing that it cb happily ignored via '--nodeps'.
> Just don't expect this to be documented anywere (grimace).

Do you still have the bug numbers for this?
I have a few machines without any sound support. If I can remove the 
entire sound system from it, it would save time during the updates.

--
Joost

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Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Stroller]

On Sat, 2 August 2014, at 2:35 pm, J. Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:
> ...
> Do you still have the bug numbers for this?
> I have a few machines without any sound support. If I can remove the entire sound system from it, it would save time during the updates.

Please, Joost, I beg you, stop posting in HTML. 

Also your email is broken, I already asked you this yesterday off-list - since you neither complied then, nor told me to naff off, I assume that you're dropping messages.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Philip Webb]

140802 J. Roeleveld wrote:
> On Friday, August 01, 2014 12:26:59 PM Philip Webb wrote:
>> Not quite (smile) ! -- I ran into this & sent bugs to Gentoo + KDE ;
>> the outcome was that I discovered that Phonon doesn't in fact demand
>> that you install the actual sound software :
>> it works to do 'USE="gstreamer" --nodeps emerge phonon'
>> & Kdelibs then compiles successfully as well.
>> If you compile KDE outside Portage, there's a "nosound" flag,
>> but the Gentoo devs have implemented that to require 
>'USE=<soundpkg>",
>> perhaps knowing that it cb happily ignored via '--nodeps'.
>> Just don't expect this to be documented anywere (grimace).
> Do you still have the bug numbers for this?

Gentoo 265864 , KDE 190601 ; also see Gentoo 454330 re Firefox.

> I have a few machines without any sound support. If I can remove
> the entire sound system from it, it would save time during the updates.

I have sound disabled in the kernel & no sound pkgs installed ;
I have had to install Phonon, but nothing to work with it.
I use several KDE apps, but run my desktop with Fluxbox.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Walter Dnes]

On Fri, Aug 01, 2014 at 06:57:17PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote
> On 01/08/2014 05:16, Walter Dnes wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 10:47:29AM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
> > 
> >> how much do you have to install if you deactivate all use flags for
> >> okular? well, you still have all of qt...  and kdelibs and phonon... but
> >> you would loose a lot of the other stuff. vlc support in phonon is as
> >> optional as tiff or chm in okular.
> > 
> >   When reading pdf files, one expects images, so tiff and jpeg are
> > reasonable flags.  One does *NOT* expect audio stuff like phonon.  And
> > phonon *DEMANDS SOMETHING*.  vlc is one of the options that satisfies
> > phonon's demands.  Or you could choose gstreamer and its gazillion plugins.
> > 
> 
> 
> I have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> [I] kde-base/okular
>      Available versions:  (4) 4.12.5-r1(4/4.12)^t (~)4.13.3(4/4.13)^t
>        {aqua chm crypt debug djvu dpi ebook +handbook +jpeg mobi +pdf
> +postscript +tiff}
> 
> 
> There's nothing in there about audio or video. There's only images and
> of those only 4 rational ones are enabled by default plus the help system.
> 
> So what is the real problem exactly again?

On Fri, Aug 01, 2014 at 09:49:57PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
>
> phonon is not an okular dependency.

  It is a "deep dependancy".  kde-base/kdelibs-4.12.5-r1.ebuild has a
"COMMONDEPEND=" block which includes ">=media-libs/phonon-4.4.3".  And
media-libs/phonon-4.6.0-r1.ebuild has the following line...

REQUIRED_USE="|| ( aqua gstreamer vlc )"

  In gentoo, *ANY* kde app which runs on the kde infrastructure requires
phonon, and one of aqua/gstreamer/vlc, unless you resort to ugly hackery
as per http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/276393

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Philip Webb]

140802 Walter Dnes wrote:
> In Gentoo, *ANY* kde app which runs on the kde infrastructure requires
> phonon, and one of aqua/gstreamer/vlc, unless you resort to ugly hackery
> as per http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/276393

So don't blame KDE, blame Gentoo for not handling Phonon correctly :
see KDE bug 190601 & Gentoo bug 265864 .

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Joost Roeleveld]

On Saturday 02 August 2014 16:13:19 Stroller wrote:
> On Sat, 2 August 2014, at 2:35 pm, J. Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:
> > ...
> > Do you still have the bug numbers for this?
> > I have a few machines without any sound support. If I can remove the
> > entire sound system from it, it would save time during the updates.
> Please, Joost, I beg you, stop posting in HTML.
> 
> Also your email is broken, I already asked you this yesterday off-list -
> since you neither complied then, nor told me to naff off, I assume that
> you're dropping messages.

Actually, I wasn't ignoring you. It just took some time to find the actual 
cause.
In the settings for KMail, I had the tick-boxes mentioning HTML off already. 
Took me till this morning to notice that in the edit-window, "Rich Text" was 
selected. (It acts like a button that is pushed in)

If anyone can tell me how to configure that to *always* default to *off*, 
instead of remembering the last setting, that would help.

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Joost Roeleveld]

On Sunday 03 August 2014 00:38:34 Philip Webb wrote:
> 140802 Walter Dnes wrote:
> > In Gentoo, *ANY* kde app which runs on the kde infrastructure requires
> > phonon, and one of aqua/gstreamer/vlc, unless you resort to ugly hackery
> > as per http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/276393
> 
> So don't blame KDE, blame Gentoo for not handling Phonon correctly :
> see KDE bug 190601 & Gentoo bug 265864 .

+1

Had a look myself just now based on your other comments.

KDE actually specifies how to build without any multimedia (audio and video) 
support:

https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/CMake#Command_Line_Variables

cmake command line variable:
KDE4_DISABLE_MULTIMEDIA=ON: Build KDE without any multimedia (audio and video) 
support. 

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Walter Dnes]

On Sun, Aug 03, 2014 at 09:07:52AM +0200, Joost Roeleveld wrote
> On Sunday 03 August 2014 00:38:34 Philip Webb wrote:
> > 140802 Walter Dnes wrote:
> > > In Gentoo, *ANY* kde app which runs on the kde infrastructure requires
> > > phonon, and one of aqua/gstreamer/vlc, unless you resort to ugly hackery
> > > as per http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/276393
> > 
> > So don't blame KDE, blame Gentoo for not handling Phonon correctly :
> > see KDE bug 190601 & Gentoo bug 265864 .
> 
> +1
> 
> Had a look myself just now based on your other comments.
> 
> KDE actually specifies how to build without any multimedia (audio and video) 
> support:
> 
> https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/CMake#Command_Line_Variables
> 
> cmake command line variable:
> KDE4_DISABLE_MULTIMEDIA=ON: Build KDE without any multimedia (audio and video) 
  The big question... what is "multimedia"?  Would it be possible to
build kde with image support (gif/png/jpeg/tiff/pdf/etc) without
building in audio and video?  I.e. how integrated is kde's graphics
and multimedia?

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[J. Roeleveld]

On Sunday, August 03, 2014 04:17:23 AM Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 03, 2014 at 09:07:52AM +0200, Joost Roeleveld wrote
> 
> > On Sunday 03 August 2014 00:38:34 Philip Webb wrote:
> > > 140802 Walter Dnes wrote:
> > > > In Gentoo, *ANY* kde app which runs on the kde infrastructure requires
> > > > phonon, and one of aqua/gstreamer/vlc, unless you resort to ugly
> > > > hackery
> > > > as per http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/276393
> > > 
> > > So don't blame KDE, blame Gentoo for not handling Phonon correctly :
> > > see KDE bug 190601 & Gentoo bug 265864 .
> > 
> > +1
> > 
> > Had a look myself just now based on your other comments.
> > 
> > KDE actually specifies how to build without any multimedia (audio and
> > video) support:
> > 
> > https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/CMake#Command_Line_Variable
> > s
> > 
> > cmake command line variable:
> > KDE4_DISABLE_MULTIMEDIA=ON: Build KDE without any multimedia (audio and
> > video)
>   The big question... what is "multimedia"?  Would it be possible to
> build kde with image support (gif/png/jpeg/tiff/pdf/etc) without
> building in audio and video?  I.e. how integrated is kde's graphics
> and multimedia?

The most common definition of multimedia is audio and video. Images is 
generally a different set. Also the description specifies audio and video 
specifically.

It might be useful to modify the ebuild(s) to specify that option and see what 
happens.

But I think that needs to be added to quite a few ebuilds and the related 
dependencies need to be modified as well.

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USE flags handling

[Alan McKinnon]

On 03/08/2014 04:59, Walter Dnes wrote:
>> phonon is not an okular dependency.
>   It is a "deep dependancy".  kde-base/kdelibs-4.12.5-r1.ebuild has a
> "COMMONDEPEND=" block which includes ">=media-libs/phonon-4.4.3".  And
> media-libs/phonon-4.6.0-r1.ebuild has the following line...
> 
> REQUIRED_USE="|| ( aqua gstreamer vlc )"
> 
>   In gentoo, *ANY* kde app which runs on the kde infrastructure requires
> phonon, and one of aqua/gstreamer/vlc, unless you resort to ugly hackery
> as per http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/276393


OK. But my original point still stands:

Okular is not designed to be a stand-alone app, it is designed to run in
the context of something bigger. And that context is KDE.

KDE is a full-featured desktop environment, it assumes that the user
will want phonon and everything that comes with it, plus plasma. So when
you emerge okular and get a boat load of new deps pulled in, why are you
surprised when that goes the way it is designed, the way it says on the box?

It's not a stand-alone app. This is also not Windows, here you have
choices and there's no shortage of pdf readers out there.

Pick another one

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Philip Webb]

140803 Joost Roeleveld wrote:
> In the settings for KMail, I had the tick-boxes mentioning HTML off already. 
> Took me till this morning to notice that in the edit-window,
> "Rich Text" was selected. (It acts like a button that is pushed in)
> If anyone can tell me how to configure that to *always* default to *off*, 
> instead of remembering the last setting, that would help.

Have you tried Mutt (smile) ?

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Stroller]

On Sun, 3 August 2014, at 7:49 am, Joost Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:
> ...
> Actually, I wasn't ignoring you. It just took some time to find the actual 
> cause.

My apologies, Joost. It was driving me crazy.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[wraeth]

On Sun, 2014-08-03 at 08:49 +0200, Joost Roeleveld wrote:
> If anyone can tell me how to configure that to *always* default to *off*, 
> instead of remembering the last setting, that would help.

It's been a while since I used kmail (i always had "issues" and ended up
reverting to thunderbird) but i'm pretty certain that the composer
options allow you to disable rich-text for messages (or, conversely,
enable plain-text-only).

it's there somewhere, just dig ;)

-- 
wraeth <wraeth@wraeth.id.au>

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Stroller]

On Sun, 3 August 2014, at 9:17 am, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
>> … KDE actually specifies how to build without any multimedia (audio and video) 
>> support:
>> 
>> https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/CMake#Command_Line_Variables
>> 
>> cmake command line variable:
>> KDE4_DISABLE_MULTIMEDIA=ON: Build KDE without any multimedia (audio and video) 
>  The big question... what is "multimedia"?  Would it be possible to
> build kde with image support (gif/png/jpeg/tiff/pdf/etc) without
> building in audio and video?  I.e. how integrated is kde's graphics
> and multimedia?

From a quick google for "KDE4_DISABLE_MULTIMEDIA" it looks like that just enables / disables Phonon:

• http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-buildsystem/2010-March/006806.html
• http://www.filewatcher.com/p/kdebase-runtime-4.1.3.tar.bz2.52251161/kdebase-runtime-4.1.3/phonon/CMakeLists.txt.html

I have to confess, I don't follow desktop development to know myself what "Phonon" means.

The page linked to in the package description for media-libs/phonon is, unsurprisingly, uninformative: https://projects.kde.org/projects/kdesupport/phonon

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Dale]

wraeth wrote:
> On Sun, 2014-08-03 at 08:49 +0200, Joost Roeleveld wrote:
>> If anyone can tell me how to configure that to *always* default to *off*, 
>> instead of remembering the last setting, that would help.
> It's been a while since I used kmail (i always had "issues" and ended up
> reverting to thunderbird) but i'm pretty certain that the composer
> options allow you to disable rich-text for messages (or, conversely,
> enable plain-text-only).
>
> it's there somewhere, just dig ;)
>

I used to use Kmail but switched to Seamonkey.  Don't start.  I might
bite.  :-)  I did some googling and found where some others were
complaining about this setting not sticking.  It seems this is not a new
issue.  One bug dated all the way back to KDE3 stuff.  I found another
that was KDE4 which claims it was fixed, heard that before.  lol 

So, maybe some bug got thrown back in?  If after the next update it does
the same, I throw up a can of Raid. Uh, over at KDE tho.  ;-) 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 4 Aug 2014 04:39:45 +0100, Stroller wrote:

> I have to confess, I don't follow desktop development to know myself
> what "Phonon" means.
> 
> The page linked to in the package description for media-libs/phonon is,
> unsurprisingly, uninformative:
> https://projects.kde.org/projects/kdesupport/phonon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonon_(software)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

A bit of tolerance is worth a megabyte of flaming. -- Henry Spencer

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Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 4 Aug 2014 08:26:59 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote:

> > I have to confess, I don't follow desktop development to know myself
> > what "Phonon" means.
> > 
> > The page linked to in the package description for media-libs/phonon
> > is, unsurprisingly, uninformative:
> > https://projects.kde.org/projects/kdesupport/phonon  
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonon_(software)

Or follow the links in the kde.org page and after four or so clicks you
end up with the information you expected to find in the first place

https://userbase.kde.org/Phonon


-- 
Neil Bothwick

IBM - Incredibly Bastardized Multitasking...

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Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[thegeezer]

On 29/07/14 18:04, behrouz khosravi wrote:
> Hello everyone.
> I just concurred my fear and jumped to installing gentoo!
> So far so good!
> Before installing on my laptop and desktop, I am trying on virtual box
> and the system is running Fluxbox very good.(default profile)
> Now I am thinking about managing USE flags.
> What if I  disable everything in the make.conf ( I mean USE="-*" ) and
> gradually add the needed flags to package.use?
> I am not trying to have severe control, I just want to expand my knowledge!
> thanks.
>
late to the conversation but no one else has mentioned, you might want
to take advantage of the newer way of doing use flags.
i.e. do not put them all in /etc/portage/make.conf
take advantage of the /etc/portage/package.use/  (you might need to
mkdir this)
in there you can put a single file per package requirements.

i.e. you try to emerge etherape, and it tells you that libgnomecanvas
requires use of glade
so cat the requirement into a file named by what requires it

$ cat /etc/portage/package.use/etherape
>=gnome-base/libgnomecanvas-2.30.3 glade

this also works for package.keywords etc

this means that you can more easily keep track of which use flags are
for which programs:
$ ls /etc/portage/package.use/
chromium   efl          freemind        teamviewer   transmission
compiz     etherape     gvfs            terminator   vinagre
darktable  filemangler  networkmanager  thunar       virtualbox
dvdrip     firefox      stellarium      thunderbird  wpa_supplicant


hth

Re: [gentoo-user] USE flags handling

[behrouz khosravi]

On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 1:51 AM, thegeezer <thegeezer@thegeezer.net> wrote:
> late to the conversation but no one else has mentioned, ...

Sounds neat, Thanks for the advise.