[gentoo-user] Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[gentoo-user] Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[Meino.Cramer]

Hi,

this evening I updated GENTOO and a new firefox was installed.
This one seem completly to disable flash video finally...
since I got no video/audio at all.

I disabled all flash-related addons of my firefox and
restarted  it.

Now I got a video ... but without any audio.
(I am running jackd by the way).
I check with qjackctl whether there were any
ports which I missed to connect...nothing.

Hmmm...

Is there any fix for that?

Best regards,
Meino

Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161015-20:27+0200, Meino.Cramer@gmx.de wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> this evening I updated GENTOO and a new firefox was installed.
> This one seem completly to disable flash video finally...
> since I got no video/audio at all.
> 
> I disabled all flash-related addons of my firefox and
> restarted  it.
> 
> Now I got a video ... but without any audio.
> (I am running jackd by the way).
> I check with qjackctl whether there were any
> ports which I missed to connect...nothing.

If jackd is to do with alsa, then it could be the following.

Mozilla went pulse all the way:
 Require PulseAudio on Linux
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056
See also:
Firefox nightly requires Pulse Audio
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=130028

> Hmmm...
> 
> Is there any fix for that?
Not familiar with jackd. But as far as alsa (which I stick to, like
other discontented users), I don't have sound since months ago.  The
only way to get it would be to compile alsa myself, I'm afraid. 

Regards!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[Meino.Cramer]

Miroslav Rovis <miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> [16-10-16 07:00]:
> On 161015-20:27+0200, Meino.Cramer@gmx.de wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > this evening I updated GENTOO and a new firefox was installed.
> > This one seem completly to disable flash video finally...
> > since I got no video/audio at all.
> > 
> > I disabled all flash-related addons of my firefox and
> > restarted  it.
> > 
> > Now I got a video ... but without any audio.
> > (I am running jackd by the way).
> > I check with qjackctl whether there were any
> > ports which I missed to connect...nothing.
> 
> If jackd is to do with alsa, then it could be the following.
> 
> Mozilla went pulse all the way:
>  Require PulseAudio on Linux
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056
> See also:
> Firefox nightly requires Pulse Audio
> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=130028
> 
> > Hmmm...
> > 
> > Is there any fix for that?
> Not familiar with jackd. But as far as alsa (which I stick to, like
> other discontented users), I don't have sound since months ago.  The
> only way to get it would be to compile alsa myself, I'm afraid. 
> 
> Regards!
> -- 
> Miroslav Rovis
> Zagreb, Croatia
> http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

Hi Miroslav,

THANKS A LOT ! :)

...got it working...somehow...

I installed pulseaudio and used pactl to set the default sink
and source to the one soundcard (onboard), which is connected
to my loudspeakers.

Drawback: Setting the volume seems only to be tweakable via
the volume slider of the HTML5 player in Firefox...and my alsa
volume "app" of my taskbar doesn't work anymore.

Hopefully the rest of my sound stuff still works....


Cheers,
Meino

Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[Jigme Datse Yli-RAsku]

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With Pulseaudio the best way (I have found) for controling the volume, is through the pulse audio volume controls. 

It works well for me.  Though they are somewhat of a pain (though not sure if that's because I simply don't know the "easier" way to handle them.

I also tend to like to handle volume control through external speaker controls if practical. 

Jigme Datse Yli-Rasku

On 2016-10-15 23:48, Meino.Cramer@gmx.de wrote:
> Miroslav Rovis <miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> [16-10-16 07:00]:
> > On 161015-20:27+0200, Meino.Cramer@gmx.de wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> this evening I updated GENTOO and a new firefox was installed.
> >> This one seem completly to disable flash video finally...
> >> since I got no video/audio at all.
> >>
> >> I disabled all flash-related addons of my firefox and
> >> restarted  it.
> >>
> >> Now I got a video ... but without any audio.
> >> (I am running jackd by the way).
> >> I check with qjackctl whether there were any
> >> ports which I missed to connect...nothing.
> >
> > If jackd is to do with alsa, then it could be the following.
> >
> > Mozilla went pulse all the way:
> >  Require PulseAudio on Linux
> > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056
> > See also:
> > Firefox nightly requires Pulse Audio
> > http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=130028
> >
> >> Hmmm...
> >>
> >> Is there any fix for that?
> > Not familiar with jackd. But as far as alsa (which I stick to, like
> > other discontented users), I don't have sound since months ago.  The
> > only way to get it would be to compile alsa myself, I'm afraid.
> >
> > Regards!
> > --
> > Miroslav Rovis
> > Zagreb, Croatia
> > http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr
>
> Hi Miroslav,
>
> THANKS A LOT ! :)
>
> ...got it working...somehow...
>
> I installed pulseaudio and used pactl to set the default sink
> and source to the one soundcard (onboard), which is connected
> to my loudspeakers.
>
> Drawback: Setting the volume seems only to be tweakable via
> the volume slider of the HTML5 player in Firefox...and my alsa
> volume "app" of my taskbar doesn't work anymore.
>
> Hopefully the rest of my sound stuff still works....
>
>
> Cheers,
> Meino
>

-- 
Jigme Datse Yli-Rasku
jigme.datse@datsemultimedia.com (Preferred address for new messages)
250-505-6117

Jigme Datse Yli-Rasku
PO Box 270
Rossland, BC V0G 1Y0
Canada

.......................................................................
... This message should be electronically signed, and if the sender ...
... has your public key, may also be encrypted. ...
... If you have any questions about this, please email, or call. ...
... ...
... Note, unknown calls likely will go to voicemail. ...
... Please leave a message if you get voicemail. ...
.......................................................................





[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
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Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[Meino.Cramer]

Jigme Datse Yli-RAsku <jigme.datse@datsemultimedia.com> [16-10-16 09:12]:
> With Pulseaudio the best way (I have found) for controling the volume, is through the pulse audio volume controls. 
> 
> It works well for me.  Though they are somewhat of a pain (though not sure if that's because I simply don't know the "easier" way to handle them.
> 
> I also tend to like to handle volume control through external speaker controls if practical. 
> 
> Jigme Datse Yli-Rasku
> 
> On 2016-10-15 23:48, Meino.Cramer@gmx.de wrote:
> > Miroslav Rovis <miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> [16-10-16 07:00]:
> > > On 161015-20:27+0200, Meino.Cramer@gmx.de wrote:
> > >> Hi,
> > >>
> > >> this evening I updated GENTOO and a new firefox was installed.
> > >> This one seem completly to disable flash video finally...
> > >> since I got no video/audio at all.
> > >>
> > >> I disabled all flash-related addons of my firefox and
> > >> restarted  it.
> > >>
> > >> Now I got a video ... but without any audio.
> > >> (I am running jackd by the way).
> > >> I check with qjackctl whether there were any
> > >> ports which I missed to connect...nothing.
> > >
> > > If jackd is to do with alsa, then it could be the following.
> > >
> > > Mozilla went pulse all the way:
> > >  Require PulseAudio on Linux
> > > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056
> > > See also:
> > > Firefox nightly requires Pulse Audio
> > > http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=130028
> > >
> > >> Hmmm...
> > >>
> > >> Is there any fix for that?
> > > Not familiar with jackd. But as far as alsa (which I stick to, like
> > > other discontented users), I don't have sound since months ago.  The
> > > only way to get it would be to compile alsa myself, I'm afraid.
> > >
> > > Regards!
> > > --
> > > Miroslav Rovis
> > > Zagreb, Croatia
> > > http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr
> >
> > Hi Miroslav,
> >
> > THANKS A LOT ! :)
> >
> > ...got it working...somehow...
> >
> > I installed pulseaudio and used pactl to set the default sink
> > and source to the one soundcard (onboard), which is connected
> > to my loudspeakers.
> >
> > Drawback: Setting the volume seems only to be tweakable via
> > the volume slider of the HTML5 player in Firefox...and my alsa
> > volume "app" of my taskbar doesn't work anymore.
> >
> > Hopefully the rest of my sound stuff still works....
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Meino
> >
> 
> -- 
> Jigme Datse Yli-Rasku
> jigme.datse@datsemultimedia.com (Preferred address for new messages)
> 250-505-6117
> 
> Jigme Datse Yli-Rasku
> PO Box 270
> Rossland, BC V0G 1Y0
> Canada
> 
> .......................................................................
> ... This message should be electronically signed, and if the sender ...
> ... has your public key, may also be encrypted. ...
> ... If you have any questions about this, please email, or call. ...
> ... ...
> ... Note, unknown calls likely will go to voicemail. ...
> ... Please leave a message if you get voicemail. ...
> .......................................................................
> 
> 
> 
> 

Hi Jigme,

THANKS FOR YOUR HELP! :)

Installing pulseaudio disables smplayer (no audio) -- I switched
to Kaffeine, which seems to work.

Now ZynAddSubFX (Softsynth) does not show up with QJackCTL.
Starting Zyn with -a gives me the audio of the Synth back...
but with BIG distortions (I mailed to the Zyn mailing list for that).

Setting the volume via pactl is a pain - and reaching the volume
knobs of my speakers (behind my monitor...) are also a pain.

Why oh why seems audio and Linux a problem in so many situations? ;)

I will search further...and if I will find anything useful I post it
here...

Cheers,
Meino

Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[Meino.Cramer]

Jigme Datse Yli-RAsku <jigme.datse@datsemultimedia.com> [16-10-16 09:12]:
> With Pulseaudio the best way (I have found) for controling the volume, is through the pulse audio volume controls. 
> 
> It works well for me.  Though they are somewhat of a pain (though not sure if that's because I simply don't know the "easier" way to handle them.
> 
> I also tend to like to handle volume control through external speaker controls if practical. 
> 
> Jigme Datse Yli-Rasku
> 
> On 2016-10-15 23:48, Meino.Cramer@gmx.de wrote:
> > Miroslav Rovis <miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> [16-10-16 07:00]:
> > > On 161015-20:27+0200, Meino.Cramer@gmx.de wrote:
> > >> Hi,
> > >>
> > >> this evening I updated GENTOO and a new firefox was installed.
> > >> This one seem completly to disable flash video finally...
> > >> since I got no video/audio at all.
> > >>
> > >> I disabled all flash-related addons of my firefox and
> > >> restarted  it.
> > >>
> > >> Now I got a video ... but without any audio.
> > >> (I am running jackd by the way).
> > >> I check with qjackctl whether there were any
> > >> ports which I missed to connect...nothing.
> > >
> > > If jackd is to do with alsa, then it could be the following.
> > >
> > > Mozilla went pulse all the way:
> > >  Require PulseAudio on Linux
> > > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056
> > > See also:
> > > Firefox nightly requires Pulse Audio
> > > http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=130028
> > >
> > >> Hmmm...
> > >>
> > >> Is there any fix for that?
> > > Not familiar with jackd. But as far as alsa (which I stick to, like
> > > other discontented users), I don't have sound since months ago.  The
> > > only way to get it would be to compile alsa myself, I'm afraid.
> > >
> > > Regards!
> > > --
> > > Miroslav Rovis
> > > Zagreb, Croatia
> > > http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr
> >
> > Hi Miroslav,
> >
> > THANKS A LOT ! :)
> >
> > ...got it working...somehow...
> >
> > I installed pulseaudio and used pactl to set the default sink
> > and source to the one soundcard (onboard), which is connected
> > to my loudspeakers.
> >
> > Drawback: Setting the volume seems only to be tweakable via
> > the volume slider of the HTML5 player in Firefox...and my alsa
> > volume "app" of my taskbar doesn't work anymore.
> >
> > Hopefully the rest of my sound stuff still works....
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Meino
> >
> 
> -- 
> Jigme Datse Yli-Rasku
> jigme.datse@datsemultimedia.com (Preferred address for new messages)
> 250-505-6117
> 
> Jigme Datse Yli-Rasku
> PO Box 270
> Rossland, BC V0G 1Y0
> Canada
> 
> .......................................................................
> ... This message should be electronically signed, and if the sender ...
> ... has your public key, may also be encrypted. ...
> ... If you have any questions about this, please email, or call. ...
> ... ...
> ... Note, unknown calls likely will go to voicemail. ...
> ... Please leave a message if you get voicemail. ...
> .......................................................................
> 
> 
> 
> 

Hi Jigme,

...found a workaround:

Source:
http://www.jackaudio.org/faq/pulseaudio_and_jack.html

Start QJackctl and click "Setup".

There is an entry titled "Serfer Prefix" which shows
"jackd" normally. Replace this one with "pasuspender -- jackd".
This will disable Pulseaudio while using jackd.

This enables a good sound from ZynAddSubFX again ... but
is does not enables the possibility to watch TV (DVBT) and/or
YouTube while playing with the Softsynth... ;)

Cheers,
Meino

Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[Miroslav Rovis]

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Hi Meino!

I regret not having told you more... See below...

And there is a question/query/my-asking-for-advice further below.

On 161016-08:48+0200, Meino.Cramer@gmx.de wrote:
> Miroslav Rovis <miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> [16-10-16 07:00]:
> > On 161015-20:27+0200, Meino.Cramer@gmx.de wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > this evening I updated GENTOO and a new firefox was installed.
> > > This one seem completly to disable flash video finally...
> > > since I got no video/audio at all.
> > > 
> > > I disabled all flash-related addons of my firefox and
> > > restarted  it.
> > > 
> > > Now I got a video ... but without any audio.
> > > (I am running jackd by the way).
> > > I check with qjackctl whether there were any
> > > ports which I missed to connect...nothing.
> > 
> > If jackd is to do with alsa, then it could be the following.
> > 
> > Mozilla went pulse all the way:
> >  Require PulseAudio on Linux
> > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056
> > See also:
> > Firefox nightly requires Pulse Audio
> > http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=130028
> > 
> > > Hmmm...
> > > 
> > > Is there any fix for that?
> > Not familiar with jackd. But as far as alsa (which I stick to, like
> > other discontented users), I don't have sound since months ago.  The
> > only way to get it would be to compile alsa myself, I'm afraid. 
> > 
> > Regards!
> > -- 
> > Miroslav Rovis
> > Zagreb, Croatia
> > http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr
> 
> Hi Miroslav,
> 
> THANKS A LOT ! :)
You may not thank me, if you read my view, and even remotely agree:
http://www.mail-archive.com/alsa-user@lists.sourceforge.net/msg31926.html
( and that is what I regret not having told you... I regret it because
you now may remain with that pulse spyware.. 

However, pls. note that in my first message to you I just said what the
reason was. I did not recommend pulse to you... )

> ...got it working...somehow...
> 
> I installed pulseaudio and used pactl to set the default sink
> and source to the one soundcard (onboard), which is connected
> to my loudspeakers.
> 
> Drawback: Setting the volume seems only to be tweakable via
> the volume slider of the HTML5 player in Firefox...and my alsa
> volume "app" of my taskbar doesn't work anymore.
> 
> Hopefully the rest of my sound stuff still works....
> 

And now the question/query/my-asking-for-advice.

In that thred on alsa-user archive that I linked to, I got this link:

[linuxaudio.org] html5 in ff through jack
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-user/2016-June/thread.html#105188

I'm gasping for free time to do various things, fixing audio in ff is
not of higest priority... Can not dedicate hours to this...

Anyone has a link for easy fixing of audio in Firefox the sans-pulse
way (and other poetterware excluded as well, of course)? With clear easy
steps, maybe?

Thanks in advance!

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[Daniel Campbell]

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On 11/18/2016 10:11 PM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> Hi Meino!
> 
> I regret not having told you more... See below...
> 
> And there is a question/query/my-asking-for-advice further below.
> 
> On 161016-08:48+0200, Meino.Cramer@gmx.de wrote:
>> Miroslav Rovis <miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> [16-10-16 07:00]:
>>> On 161015-20:27+0200, Meino.Cramer@gmx.de wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> this evening I updated GENTOO and a new firefox was installed.
>>>> This one seem completly to disable flash video finally...
>>>> since I got no video/audio at all.
>>>>
>>>> I disabled all flash-related addons of my firefox and
>>>> restarted  it.
>>>>
>>>> Now I got a video ... but without any audio.
>>>> (I am running jackd by the way).
>>>> I check with qjackctl whether there were any
>>>> ports which I missed to connect...nothing.
>>>
>>> If jackd is to do with alsa, then it could be the following.
>>>
>>> Mozilla went pulse all the way:
>>>  Require PulseAudio on Linux
>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056
>>> See also:
>>> Firefox nightly requires Pulse Audio
>>> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=130028
>>>
>>>> Hmmm...
>>>>
>>>> Is there any fix for that?
>>> Not familiar with jackd. But as far as alsa (which I stick to, like
>>> other discontented users), I don't have sound since months ago.  The
>>> only way to get it would be to compile alsa myself, I'm afraid. 
>>>
>>> Regards!
>>> -- 
>>> Miroslav Rovis
>>> Zagreb, Croatia
>>> http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr
>>
>> Hi Miroslav,
>>
>> THANKS A LOT ! :)
> You may not thank me, if you read my view, and even remotely agree:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/alsa-user@lists.sourceforge.net/msg31926.html
> ( and that is what I regret not having told you... I regret it because
> you now may remain with that pulse spyware.. 
> 
> However, pls. note that in my first message to you I just said what the
> reason was. I did not recommend pulse to you... )
> 
>> ...got it working...somehow...
>>
>> I installed pulseaudio and used pactl to set the default sink
>> and source to the one soundcard (onboard), which is connected
>> to my loudspeakers.
>>
>> Drawback: Setting the volume seems only to be tweakable via
>> the volume slider of the HTML5 player in Firefox...and my alsa
>> volume "app" of my taskbar doesn't work anymore.
>>
>> Hopefully the rest of my sound stuff still works....
>>
> 
> And now the question/query/my-asking-for-advice.
> 
> In that thred on alsa-user archive that I linked to, I got this link:
> 
> [linuxaudio.org] html5 in ff through jack
> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-user/2016-June/thread.html#105188
> 
> I'm gasping for free time to do various things, fixing audio in ff is
> not of higest priority... Can not dedicate hours to this...
> 
> Anyone has a link for easy fixing of audio in Firefox the sans-pulse
> way (and other poetterware excluded as well, of course)? With clear easy
> steps, maybe?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
Generally if you run into this problem, it's one of two things:

1. `alsamixer` hasn't been used to unmute the levels. After configuring
it, be sure to run 'alsactl store' as root and make sure the 'alsasound'
service is in the default run-level (`rc-update add alsasound default`
as root), or...
2. Try adding these to your user's ~/.asoundrc file:

defaults.ctl.card x;
defaults.pcm.card x;

Replace 'x' with the numeric index of your card (which you can view in
alsamixer using F6). If the order of your cards changes on boot, you'll
need to tell the module controlling your sound (snd_hda_intel is common)
to set its index in a file like /etc/modprobe.d/alsa-base.conf, with
lines like `options snd_hda_intel index=1` or something similar.

Others have done a far better job explaining this than me. Our own guide
on our wiki [0] and Arch's wiki [1] should be adequate to get you going
fairly quickly. Just Ctrl+F "default" to find what you need. Assuming
you don't have exotic hardware, this can be fixed in 15 minutes or less.

Hope this helps.

[0]: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/ALSA#Configuration
[1]:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Advanced_Linux_Sound_Architecture#Set_the_default_sound_card
-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6


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Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161119-00:33-0800, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> On 11/18/2016 10:11 PM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> > Hi Meino!
> > 
> > I regret not having told you more... See below...
> > 
> > And there is a question/query/my-asking-for-advice further below.
> > 
> > On 161016-08:48+0200, Meino.Cramer@gmx.de wrote:
> >> Miroslav Rovis <miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> [16-10-16 07:00]:
> >>> On 161015-20:27+0200, Meino.Cramer@gmx.de wrote:
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> this evening I updated GENTOO and a new firefox was installed.
> >>>> This one seem completly to disable flash video finally...
> >>>> since I got no video/audio at all.
> >>>>
> >>>> I disabled all flash-related addons of my firefox and
> >>>> restarted  it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Now I got a video ... but without any audio.
> >>>> (I am running jackd by the way).
> >>>> I check with qjackctl whether there were any
> >>>> ports which I missed to connect...nothing.
> >>>
> >>> If jackd is to do with alsa, then it could be the following.
> >>>
> >>> Mozilla went pulse all the way:
> >>>  Require PulseAudio on Linux
> >>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056
> >>> See also:
> >>> Firefox nightly requires Pulse Audio
> >>> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=130028
> >>>
> >>>> Hmmm...
> >>>>
> >>>> Is there any fix for that?
> >>> Not familiar with jackd. But as far as alsa (which I stick to, like
> >>> other discontented users), I don't have sound since months ago.  The
> >>> only way to get it would be to compile alsa myself, I'm afraid. 
> >>>
> >>> Regards!
> >>> -- 
> >>> Miroslav Rovis
> >>> Zagreb, Croatia
> >>> http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr
> >>
> >> Hi Miroslav,
> >>
> >> THANKS A LOT ! :)
> > You may not thank me, if you read my view, and even remotely agree:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/alsa-user@lists.sourceforge.net/msg31926.html
> > ( and that is what I regret not having told you... I regret it because
> > you now may remain with that pulse spyware.. 
> > 
> > However, pls. note that in my first message to you I just said what the
> > reason was. I did not recommend pulse to you... )
> > 
> >> ...got it working...somehow...
> >>
> >> I installed pulseaudio and used pactl to set the default sink
> >> and source to the one soundcard (onboard), which is connected
> >> to my loudspeakers.
> >>
> >> Drawback: Setting the volume seems only to be tweakable via
> >> the volume slider of the HTML5 player in Firefox...and my alsa
> >> volume "app" of my taskbar doesn't work anymore.
> >>
> >> Hopefully the rest of my sound stuff still works....
> >>
> > 
> > And now the question/query/my-asking-for-advice.
> > 
> > In that thred on alsa-user archive that I linked to, I got this link:
> > 
> > [linuxaudio.org] html5 in ff through jack
> > http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-user/2016-June/thread.html#105188
> > 
> > I'm gasping for free time to do various things, fixing audio in ff is
> > not of higest priority... Can not dedicate hours to this...
> > 
> > Anyone has a link for easy fixing of audio in Firefox the sans-pulse
> > way (and other poetterware excluded as well, of course)? With clear easy
> > steps, maybe?
> > 
> > Thanks in advance!

So it's only this, probably (and I had given links that, indirectly,
mislead another Gentoo user...):

> Generally if you run into this problem, it's one of two things:
> 
> 1. `alsamixer` hasn't been used to unmute the levels. After configuring
> it, be sure to run 'alsactl store' as root and make sure the 'alsasound'
> service is in the default run-level (`rc-update add alsasound default`
> as root), or...
> 2. Try adding these to your user's ~/.asoundrc file:
> 
> defaults.ctl.card x;
> defaults.pcm.card x;
> 
> Replace 'x' with the numeric index of your card (which you can view in
> alsamixer using F6). If the order of your cards changes on boot, you'll
> need to tell the module controlling your sound (snd_hda_intel is common)
> to set its index in a file like /etc/modprobe.d/alsa-base.conf, with
> lines like `options snd_hda_intel index=1` or something similar.
> 
> Others have done a far better job explaining this than me. Our own guide
> on our wiki [0] and Arch's wiki [1] should be adequate to get you going
> fairly quickly. Just Ctrl+F "default" to find what you need. Assuming
> you don't have exotic hardware, this can be fixed in 15 minutes or less.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> [0]: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/ALSA#Configuration
> [1]:
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Advanced_Linux_Sound_Architecture#Set_the_default_sound_card
> -- 
> Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
> OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
> fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6

And here is a Gentoo developer who is helping us out:

https://dev.gentoo.org/~zlg/

Really thanks!

I don't think I even need to be back to report here if this just works
(will try it next), but I'll make sure I CC this to Meino...

Meino (for the Anglo folks, and for the only-English-as-foreign-language
speakers: that name, or don't know if it's a nickname, is pronounced,
approximately, as if it was written Mino ), I'm sorry again.

FYI, once I even installed the SELinux (whose original manufacturer is
NSA itself), but I was able to go back to the state of my system
previous to installing it... However, I was able to do it only from
dd-made backup of my entire system...

I hope you still have some way left to still go pulse-free.. Pulse
should not have its tentacles as deep as SELinux does (or used to have;
my brush with it happened some 5 or 6 years ago, I had reported it on
Gentoo Forums)...

Regards!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161119-10:22+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> On 161119-00:33-0800, Daniel Campbell wrote:
...
> > > And there is a question/query/my-asking-for-advice further below.
...
> > >>> If jackd is to do with alsa, then it could be the following.
> > >>>
> > >>> Mozilla went pulse all the way:
> > >>>  Require PulseAudio on Linux
> > >>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056
> > >>> See also:
> > >>> Firefox nightly requires Pulse Audio
> > >>> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=130028
> > >>>
> > >>>> Hmmm...
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Is there any fix for that?
> > >>> Not familiar with jackd. But as far as alsa (which I stick to, like
> > >>> other discontented users), I don't have sound since months ago.  The
> > >>> only way to get it would be to compile alsa myself, I'm afraid. 
> > >>>
...
> > > In that thred on alsa-user archive that I linked to, I got this link:
> > > 
> > > [linuxaudio.org] html5 in ff through jack
> > > http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-user/2016-June/thread.html#105188
...
> So it's only this, probably (and I had given links that, indirectly,
> mislead another Gentoo user...):
( No, it's not only this: )
> > Generally if you run into this problem, it's one of two things:
I've looked all options of my alsamixer, and it doesn't appear to me
that is's muted. I can play anything with MPlayer, and I can play an
HTML video by giving the url to Vlc...
> > 1. `alsamixer` hasn't been used to unmute the levels. After configuring
> > it, be sure to run 'alsactl store' as root and make sure the 'alsasound'
> > service is in the default run-level (`rc-update add alsasound default`
> > as root), or...
> > 2. Try adding these to your user's ~/.asoundrc file:

Also:
> > defaults.ctl.card x;
> > defaults.pcm.card x;
I every do often change my default card... I have only these two lines
(if I grep out all that is commented out) in my:
$ cat ~/.asoundrc | grep -v '^#'  

pcm.!default { type hw card 1 }
ctl.!default { type hw card 1 }

and sometimes I need to set it to 0, sometimes to 1 (depending of the
update of the system and where the old Hauppauge HVR3000's audio, or the
MBO's Intel HD Audio end up...

So this below is what I somehow practice since long:
> > Replace 'x' with the numeric index of your card (which you can view in
> > alsamixer using F6).
That does give the option to choose the card. But it's only one of the
two, the Hauppauge or the Intel HD...

Starting alsamixer and hitting F3 should be where to look for. And I
don't see anything the changing of which gives me audio to work in
Firefox...
> > If the order of your cards changes on boot, you'll
> > need to tell the module controlling your sound (snd_hda_intel is common)
> > to set its index in a file like /etc/modprobe.d/alsa-base.conf, with
> > lines like `options snd_hda_intel index=1` or something similar.
I have all built in the kernel. I do have audio, such as with MPlayer or
with Vlc, just I don't have audio in Firefox.

> > Others have done a far better job explaining this than me. Our own guide
> > on our wiki [0] and Arch's wiki [1] should be adequate to get you going
> > fairly quickly. Just Ctrl+F "default" to find what you need. Assuming
> > you don't have exotic hardware, this can be fixed in 15 minutes or less.
> > 
> > Hope this helps.
> > 
> > [0]: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/ALSA#Configuration
> > [1]:
> > https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Advanced_Linux_Sound_Architecture#Set_the_default_sound_card
It appears to be basically the same info as in your kind explanation...

But this is now getting way more than 15 minutes... I will try to find
more time, still, but not hours, for this issue...

> I don't think I even need to be back to report here if this just works
No, it doesn't. And the issue is not solved yet...

Regards!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[Daniel Campbell]

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On 11/19/2016 01:59 AM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> On 161119-10:22+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
>> On 161119-00:33-0800, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> ...
>>>> And there is a question/query/my-asking-for-advice further below.
> ...
>>>>>> If jackd is to do with alsa, then it could be the following.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mozilla went pulse all the way:
>>>>>>  Require PulseAudio on Linux
>>>>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056
>>>>>> See also:
>>>>>> Firefox nightly requires Pulse Audio
>>>>>> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=130028
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hmmm...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there any fix for that?
>>>>>> Not familiar with jackd. But as far as alsa (which I stick to, like
>>>>>> other discontented users), I don't have sound since months ago.  The
>>>>>> only way to get it would be to compile alsa myself, I'm afraid. 
>>>>>>
> ...
>>>> In that thred on alsa-user archive that I linked to, I got this link:
>>>>
>>>> [linuxaudio.org] html5 in ff through jack
>>>> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-user/2016-June/thread.html#105188
> ...
>> So it's only this, probably (and I had given links that, indirectly,
>> mislead another Gentoo user...):
> ( No, it's not only this: )
>>> Generally if you run into this problem, it's one of two things:
> I've looked all options of my alsamixer, and it doesn't appear to me
> that is's muted. I can play anything with MPlayer, and I can play an
> HTML video by giving the url to Vlc...
>>> 1. `alsamixer` hasn't been used to unmute the levels. After configuring
>>> it, be sure to run 'alsactl store' as root and make sure the 'alsasound'
>>> service is in the default run-level (`rc-update add alsasound default`
>>> as root), or...
>>> 2. Try adding these to your user's ~/.asoundrc file:
> 
> Also:
>>> defaults.ctl.card x;
>>> defaults.pcm.card x;
> I every do often change my default card... I have only these two lines
> (if I grep out all that is commented out) in my:
> $ cat ~/.asoundrc | grep -v '^#'  
> 
> pcm.!default { type hw card 1 }
> ctl.!default { type hw card 1 }
> 
> and sometimes I need to set it to 0, sometimes to 1 (depending of the
> update of the system and where the old Hauppauge HVR3000's audio, or the
> MBO's Intel HD Audio end up...
> 
> So this below is what I somehow practice since long:
>>> Replace 'x' with the numeric index of your card (which you can view in
>>> alsamixer using F6).
> That does give the option to choose the card. But it's only one of the
> two, the Hauppauge or the Intel HD...
> 
> Starting alsamixer and hitting F3 should be where to look for. And I
> don't see anything the changing of which gives me audio to work in
> Firefox...
>>> If the order of your cards changes on boot, you'll
>>> need to tell the module controlling your sound (snd_hda_intel is common)
>>> to set its index in a file like /etc/modprobe.d/alsa-base.conf, with
>>> lines like `options snd_hda_intel index=1` or something similar.
> I have all built in the kernel. I do have audio, such as with MPlayer or
> with Vlc, just I don't have audio in Firefox.
> 
>>> Others have done a far better job explaining this than me. Our own guide
>>> on our wiki [0] and Arch's wiki [1] should be adequate to get you going
>>> fairly quickly. Just Ctrl+F "default" to find what you need. Assuming
>>> you don't have exotic hardware, this can be fixed in 15 minutes or less.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps.
>>>
>>> [0]: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/ALSA#Configuration
>>> [1]:
>>> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Advanced_Linux_Sound_Architecture#Set_the_default_sound_card
> It appears to be basically the same info as in your kind explanation...
> 
> But this is now getting way more than 15 minutes... I will try to find
> more time, still, but not hours, for this issue...
> 
>> I don't think I even need to be back to report here if this just works
> No, it doesn't. And the issue is not solved yet...
> 
> Regards!
> 
Hmm, that's strange... Your config looks sane to me (though specifying
something as 'type hw' can interfere with mixing sometimes; an empty or
non-existent ~/.asoundrc should default to dmix internally. I doubt this
is your problem though since it works on everything else)

Here's an idea: try using the ALSA_CARD environment variable and run
Firefox with it. All you'll need is the name of your card. So if your
card is named "Onboard", you'd issue this:

ALSA_CARD="Onboard" firefox

in a terminal, go to Youtube, and check stdout in the terminal.

You can check for your card names with this pipeline:

aplay -l | awk '/^card/{print$3}' | sort | uniq

For me, my primary card is "SB", which is onboard Intel HDA.

If you can get $ALSA_CARD to work, then we know firefox itself can play
sound, but somehow isn't defaulting to the device you want it to. Back
when I used ALSA + apulse (and intend to do so again some time in the
future...), I used $ALSA_CARD for some programs that misbehaved and
things were okay.

If this persists as a problem for you, it might be worth opening a bug
for it, as what I've shared is as far as my personal experience goes and
other people may be experiencing the same issue. You'll need to provide
'emerge --info' and possibly 'emerge -pv firefox' output if you choose
to report a bug.

Let me know how it goes.
-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6


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Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[Miroslav Rovis]

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Hi Daniel!

I'll try all of your suggestions below after I read them over carefully,
as I'm confident again there must be a way to fix audio in FF without
pulse...

On 161120-00:10-0800, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> On 11/19/2016 01:59 AM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> > On 161119-10:22+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> >> On 161119-00:33-0800, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> > ...
> >>>> And there is a question/query/my-asking-for-advice further below.
> > ...
> >>>>>> If jackd is to do with alsa, then it could be the following.

Just in the meantime, a (hopefully) easier question: doesn't this bug
below mean harder to get non-pulse audio to work with Firefox:
> >>>>>> Mozilla went pulse all the way:
> >>>>>>  Require PulseAudio on Linux
> >>>>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056
> >>>>>> See also:
> >>>>>> Firefox nightly requires Pulse Audio
> >>>>>> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=130028
and if the other info that the dev at alsa-user gave me:
http://www.mail-archive.com/alsa-user@lists.sourceforge.net/msg31929.html
where he gave the link to:
html5 in ff through jack
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-user/2016-June/105188.html

if that means the info in that bug page is incomplte in the sense it is
misleading to users who want to stick with sans-pulse alsa... then once
I figure out how to do it, I'll post there for other users to know...

(And is that "html5 in ff through jack" the news that's missing for
people who are being misled on that Mozilla Dev page?)
...

[ I'll try all of your suggestions ... as I'm confident again there must
be a way to fix audio in FF without pulse... ] just as the other dev
said, that it is there, only for Archlinux, at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/alsa-user@lists.sourceforge.net/msg31927.html

I will...

But I first need to come to some terms with a different issue at:

qemu-system-x86 segfaults in libspice-server.so.1.12.0 
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98779#c3

for which I'm now studying stuff like:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project_Talk:Quality_Assurance/Backtraces
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Virtualization
and quite a few related stuff elsewhere, and it's pretty hard and
time-comsuming...

> 
> Let me know how it goes.
I sure will, but I need longer to find time for Firefox and alsa/jackd.

> -- 
> Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
> OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
> fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6
> 

Thanks again for offering your advice!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[Miroslav Rovis]

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I just got Firefox to play HTML5 pages (and likely other stuff as well),
with audio working, my system.

But let me first vent my frustration for why it was so hard...

On 161120-20:46+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> Hi Daniel!
> 
...
> On 161120-00:10-0800, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> > On 11/19/2016 01:59 AM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> > > On 161119-10:22+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
...

It took me such long time, well, yes, because ALSA had advanced and I
kept the old config, simply because it worked with all apps (but not the
Firefox, more below...)...

What other conclusion could a not very advanced user get but this one
below?:
> Just in the meantime, a (hopefully) easier question: doesn't this bug
> below mean harder to get non-pulse audio to work with Firefox:
> > >>>>>> Mozilla went pulse all the way:
> > >>>>>>  Require PulseAudio on Linux
> > >>>>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056
> > >>>>>> See also:
> > >>>>>> Firefox nightly requires Pulse Audio
> > >>>>>> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=130028
> and if the other info that the dev at alsa-user gave me:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/alsa-user@lists.sourceforge.net/msg31929.html
> where he gave the link to:
> html5 in ff through jack
> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-user/2016-June/105188.html

And I've just delivered on this promise of mine:
> if that means the info in that bug page is incomplte in the sense it is
> misleading to users who want to stick with sans-pulse alsa... then once
> I figure out how to do it, I'll post there for other users to know...
Pls. read my comment of just some half hour ago:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056#c171

> [ I'll try all of your suggestions ... as I'm confident again there must
> be a way to fix audio in FF without pulse... ] just as the other dev
> said, that it is there, only for Archlinux, at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/alsa-user@lists.sourceforge.net/msg31927.html
How on Earth would a non-advanced user know after reading that Mozilla
bug, that she/he don't need to get that another layer for suspicious
purposes onto their fine ALSA?

Now I'll explain what was the reason it did not work (because I promised
I would ;-) and you were kind to offer help)...

On 161120-00:10-0800, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> On 11/19/2016 01:59 AM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> > On 161119-10:22+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> >> On 161119-00:33-0800, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> > ...
> >>>> And there is a question/query/my-asking-for-advice further below.
> > ...
...
No, jack was not needed, but according to:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/ALSA#JACK_audio_connection_kit
is far superior to pulseaudio, just to make clear. The below wasn't
needed for me to solve my issue. 
> >>>> [linuxaudio.org] html5 in ff through jack
> >>>> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-user/2016-June/thread.html#105188
> > ...

This was one of two issues that needed to be fixed/put in place/corrected:
> > Also:
> >>> defaults.ctl.card x;
> >>> defaults.pcm.card x;

Yeah! And what I had, the below...:
> > I every do often change my default card... I have only these two lines
> > (if I grep out all that is commented out) in my:
> > $ cat ~/.asoundrc | grep -v '^#'  
This:
> > pcm.!default { type hw card 1 }
> > ctl.!default { type hw card 1 }
was wrong!
(that's old config, maybe 2-3 or more years old. It just worked all the
time, who cared... MPlayer, Vlc, the old cinch cables --the RCA IIRC--
could get the recordings from old/new equipment... So who cared...)

So one of my two issues was exactly this one (and the change to make):
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/ALSA#Firefox_and_YouTube_have_no_audio_with_custom_.asoundrc_but_other_apps_do

And after making the other change first, which is simply what Gentoo Firefox
Wiki says at:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Firefox#Lack_of_sound
so after:
# emerge gst-plugins-meta:1.0

and changing my ~/.asoundrc to:

defaults.ctl.card 0
defaults.pcm.card 0

(or it will be

defaults.ctl.card 1
defaults.pcm.card 1

sometimes, in my case)

only then did Firefox finally start to play both video and audio when I
opened HTML5 pages.

A quick test was this page (but on my offline Apache, saying it because
I need to propagate the change to this clone that I access online with,
I did the changes on my maste machine, so if all keeps well when into
clone, I won't need to inform of some functionality still not there)
(doing the one-liner below worked):

$ firefox
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr/foss/cenz/iskon-t-com-miro-rovis/150320-17h_T-com_davi_ugovorima.webm

(that's actually a one-liner, only wrapped in mail)

> >>> Hope this helps.
> >>>
> >>> [0]: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/ALSA#Configuration
> >>> [1]:
> >>> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Advanced_Linux_Sound_Architecture#Set_the_default_sound_card
> > It appears to be basically the same info as in your kind explanation...
> > 
> > But this is now getting way more than 15 minutes... I will try to find
> > more time, still, but not hours, for this issue...
> > 
> >> I don't think I even need to be back to report here if this just works
> > No, it doesn't. And the issue is not solved yet...
> > 
> > Regards!
> > 
> Hmm, that's strange... Your config looks sane to me (though specifying
> something as 'type hw' can interfere with mixing sometimes; an empty or
> non-existent ~/.asoundrc should default to dmix internally. I doubt this
> is your problem though since it works on everything else)
> 
> Here's an idea: try using the ALSA_CARD environment variable and run
> Firefox with it. All you'll need is the name of your card. So if your
> card is named "Onboard", you'd issue this:

This didn't help in my case:
> ALSA_CARD="Onboard" firefox

No need to file a bug:
> If this persists as a problem for you, it might be worth opening a bug
> for it, as what I've shared is as far as my personal experience goes and
> other people may be experiencing the same issue. You'll need to provide
> 'emerge --info' and possibly 'emerge -pv firefox' output if you choose
> to report a bug.
> 
> Let me know how it goes.
I just did ;-) !

Thanks again for caring! I like our devs, I feel fine using Gentoo. Can
live without systemd, can even live without dbus! That's not what you
get easily at all in all the distros!

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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[gentoo-user] Re: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[Ian Zimmerman]

Thanks for your hard work.

I don't even need/want audio in the browser anymore, but your research
may well be helpful when I install jack, as I plan to.

-- 
Please *no* private Cc: on mailing lists and newsgroups
Personal signed mail: please _encrypt_ and sign
Don't clear-text sign: http://cr.yp.to/smtp/8bitmime.html

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161128-13:54-0800, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> Thanks for your hard work.
No, not my hard work, but our developers (including the kindness of one
Daniel Campbell, but I primarily mean all the developers who make
Gentoo, esp. the true *nix variant of Gentoo happen).

> I don't even need/want audio in the browser anymore, but your research
> may well be helpful when I install jack, as I plan to.

Very marginally touching on this topic, next.

I see both of us are not only systemd free, but also dbus free. That's a
blessing that I believe will be spreading more and more in the
*nixworld, and more will not necessarily mean quantity, but quality...

I believe it will come to pass so, even though in some distros, like
Devuan, the Debian fork, there is a little downtime... Also the
systemd-free Archlinux appears to me to be sidelined a bit...

And it's OpenRC, the Gentoo native, which is apealing to more and more
developers of other FOSS GNU Linux brands.

To me, that makes me proud of our developers.
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[Daniel Campbell]

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On 11/28/2016 08:30 AM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> I just got Firefox to play HTML5 pages (and likely other stuff as well),
> with audio working, my system.
> 
> But let me first vent my frustration for why it was so hard...
> 
> On 161120-20:46+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
>> Hi Daniel!
>>
> ...
>> On 161120-00:10-0800, Daniel Campbell wrote:
>>> On 11/19/2016 01:59 AM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
>>>> On 161119-10:22+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> ...
> 
> It took me such long time, well, yes, because ALSA had advanced and I
> kept the old config, simply because it worked with all apps (but not the
> Firefox, more below...)...
> 
> What other conclusion could a not very advanced user get but this one
> below?:
>> Just in the meantime, a (hopefully) easier question: doesn't this bug
>> below mean harder to get non-pulse audio to work with Firefox:
>>>>>>>>> Mozilla went pulse all the way:
>>>>>>>>>  Require PulseAudio on Linux
>>>>>>>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056
>>>>>>>>> See also:
>>>>>>>>> Firefox nightly requires Pulse Audio
>>>>>>>>> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=130028
>> and if the other info that the dev at alsa-user gave me:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/alsa-user@lists.sourceforge.net/msg31929.html
>> where he gave the link to:
>> html5 in ff through jack
>> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-user/2016-June/105188.html
> 
> And I've just delivered on this promise of mine:
>> if that means the info in that bug page is incomplte in the sense it is
>> misleading to users who want to stick with sans-pulse alsa... then once
>> I figure out how to do it, I'll post there for other users to know...
> Pls. read my comment of just some half hour ago:
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056#c171
> 
>> [ I'll try all of your suggestions ... as I'm confident again there must
>> be a way to fix audio in FF without pulse... ] just as the other dev
>> said, that it is there, only for Archlinux, at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/alsa-user@lists.sourceforge.net/msg31927.html
> How on Earth would a non-advanced user know after reading that Mozilla
> bug, that she/he don't need to get that another layer for suspicious
> purposes onto their fine ALSA?
> 
> Now I'll explain what was the reason it did not work (because I promised
> I would ;-) and you were kind to offer help)...
> 
> On 161120-00:10-0800, Daniel Campbell wrote:
>> On 11/19/2016 01:59 AM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
>>> On 161119-10:22+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
>>>> On 161119-00:33-0800, Daniel Campbell wrote:
>>> ...
>>>>>> And there is a question/query/my-asking-for-advice further below.
>>> ...
> ...
> No, jack was not needed, but according to:
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/ALSA#JACK_audio_connection_kit
> is far superior to pulseaudio, just to make clear. The below wasn't
> needed for me to solve my issue. 
>>>>>> [linuxaudio.org] html5 in ff through jack
>>>>>> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-user/2016-June/thread.html#105188
>>> ...
> 
> This was one of two issues that needed to be fixed/put in place/corrected:
>>> Also:
>>>>> defaults.ctl.card x;
>>>>> defaults.pcm.card x;
> 
> Yeah! And what I had, the below...:
>>> I every do often change my default card... I have only these two lines
>>> (if I grep out all that is commented out) in my:
>>> $ cat ~/.asoundrc | grep -v '^#'  
> This:
>>> pcm.!default { type hw card 1 }
>>> ctl.!default { type hw card 1 }
> was wrong!
> (that's old config, maybe 2-3 or more years old. It just worked all the
> time, who cared... MPlayer, Vlc, the old cinch cables --the RCA IIRC--
> could get the recordings from old/new equipment... So who cared...)
> 
> So one of my two issues was exactly this one (and the change to make):
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/ALSA#Firefox_and_YouTube_have_no_audio_with_custom_.asoundrc_but_other_apps_do
> 
> And after making the other change first, which is simply what Gentoo Firefox
> Wiki says at:
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Firefox#Lack_of_sound
> so after:
> # emerge gst-plugins-meta:1.0
> 
> and changing my ~/.asoundrc to:
> 
> defaults.ctl.card 0
> defaults.pcm.card 0
> 
> (or it will be
> 
> defaults.ctl.card 1
> defaults.pcm.card 1
> 
> sometimes, in my case)
> 
> only then did Firefox finally start to play both video and audio when I
> opened HTML5 pages.
> 
> A quick test was this page (but on my offline Apache, saying it because
> I need to propagate the change to this clone that I access online with,
> I did the changes on my maste machine, so if all keeps well when into
> clone, I won't need to inform of some functionality still not there)
> (doing the one-liner below worked):
> 
> $ firefox
> http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr/foss/cenz/iskon-t-com-miro-rovis/150320-17h_T-com_davi_ugovorima.webm
> 
> (that's actually a one-liner, only wrapped in mail)
> 
>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>>
>>>>> [0]: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/ALSA#Configuration
>>>>> [1]:
>>>>> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Advanced_Linux_Sound_Architecture#Set_the_default_sound_card
>>> It appears to be basically the same info as in your kind explanation...
>>>
>>> But this is now getting way more than 15 minutes... I will try to find
>>> more time, still, but not hours, for this issue...
>>>
>>>> I don't think I even need to be back to report here if this just works
>>> No, it doesn't. And the issue is not solved yet...
>>>
>>> Regards!
>>>
>> Hmm, that's strange... Your config looks sane to me (though specifying
>> something as 'type hw' can interfere with mixing sometimes; an empty or
>> non-existent ~/.asoundrc should default to dmix internally. I doubt this
>> is your problem though since it works on everything else)
>>
>> Here's an idea: try using the ALSA_CARD environment variable and run
>> Firefox with it. All you'll need is the name of your card. So if your
>> card is named "Onboard", you'd issue this:
> 
> This didn't help in my case:
>> ALSA_CARD="Onboard" firefox
> 
> No need to file a bug:
>> If this persists as a problem for you, it might be worth opening a bug
>> for it, as what I've shared is as far as my personal experience goes and
>> other people may be experiencing the same issue. You'll need to provide
>> 'emerge --info' and possibly 'emerge -pv firefox' output if you choose
>> to report a bug.
>>
>> Let me know how it goes.
> I just did ;-) !
> 
> Thanks again for caring! I like our devs, I feel fine using Gentoo. Can
> live without systemd, can even live without dbus! That's not what you
> get easily at all in all the distros!
> 
It's my pleasure. I only run PA and dbus for OBS Studio. One day this
system will be back to vanilla ALSA with apulse to fill in any gaps. :)

I'm glad you were able to find a solution. Audio is one of those things
that's almost unique to every system and problems in one system (even
with the same hardware) may not match the other, so I chose to give you
a handful of options to try, since it's not always clear which solution
is best.

If you ever get sick of manually updating the card numbers, you could
probably write a script for it.

Happy browsing,

~zlg
-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6


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Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161128-23:51-0800, Daniel Campbell wrote:
Pls. note what the title was of this Mozilla Firefox bug just below:
> >>>>>>>>>  Require PulseAudio on Linux
> >>>>>>>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056
Surely us users could only get to the conclusion there was no more video
w/o Pulse (such as in Debian):
> >>>>>>>>> Firefox nightly requires Pulse Audio
> >>>>>>>>> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=130028
(but I let the Debianers know that it doesn't have to be like that... if
they get their developers to do it for them, like Gentoo and Archlinux
did it for their users:
( the same topic: Firefox nightly requires Pulse Audio)
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=130028#p630102
)
I said that to Mozilla devs, how our devs did it for us (but in the
discussion ensuing this comment of mine below):
> > Pls. read my comment of just some half hour ago:
> > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056#c171
> > 

Pls. note the change of title to:
Require PulseAudio to play sound on Linux
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056#c172

This below (living without dbus):
> > Thanks again for caring! I like our devs, I feel fine using Gentoo. Can
> > live without systemd, can even live without dbus! That's not what you
> > get easily at all in all the distros!
wasn't the case just maybe one year, two year ago, with lots of
packages. Lots of packages couldn't be installed, well: not easily, in a
non-dbus system!

Now they can! That's such amazing change in my eyes! And I understand I
owe it to some of the really great, some of among the best developers on
the planet, because there's no computing like FOSS GNU/Linux, and
there's not many distros that match up to Gentoo...

You know, it's not very little at all, it takes long use to understand
even this much that I have arrived to understand by now...

If I compare my knowledge of just a few years ago... I'm slow in my
advancing, but still. And it's amazing to be able to understand these
nuances.

To be able to understand these nuances... to some extent.

Can I ask you about this Mozilla bug that even according to my
poor user's understanding ;-) , is almost clearly an imposition which
wasn't due by any fair reasoning, which wasn't necessary for any
warranted reason, can I ask you about it?

It would take me long time if I went and perused the Mozilla sources
related to this change, and Gentoo ebuilds, and then I would maybe even
be able to understand... But that huge kind of time I don't have...

((
E.g. here's the only two occurrences of either ALSA, PULSE or even AUDIO or
SOUND in the patchset for Firefox-50.0 that I found:

# tar xf /usr/portage/distfiles/firefox-50.0-patches-02.tar.xz
firefox/
firefox/allow-utf8-fallback.patch
firefox/8006_fix_third_party_nICEr_math_header.patch
...[16 lines cut]..
firefox/8009_system_harfbuzz_graphite2_bug847568_v4.patch
...[12 lines cut]..
#
# grep -riE 'alsa|pulse|audio|sound' firefox/
firefox/8009_system_harfbuzz_graphite2_bug847568_v4.patch: if
CONFIG['MOZ_ALSA']:

firefox/8009_system_harfbuzz_graphite2_bug847568_v4.patch:     OS_LIBS
+= CONFIG['MOZ_ALSA_LIBS']

#
(the above are two lines only, not four, that are found, but they are
wrapped for email format)

And that just does not seem to have any connection with the (as I
perceive it) planned imposition of pulseaudio requirement to Firefox by
Mozilla... Or does it?
))

So can I ask you, but I'm perfectly fine if you can't tell either, I'm
not asking you to do the work of reading the code and the ebuilds to
tell me what happened, but I only ask you if you maybe know by mere
skimming through that Mozilla bug and maybe just giving it a glance at
the Gentoo ebuilds...

How come Mozilla says the source now requires Pulseaudio, but neither
the Achlinux (which is systemd-based), nor Gentoo (which is, the
default, OpenRC-based), just do not have that requirement?

What's the play there with that strange requirement bug? Go as broad as
you feel like. I called it, indirectly, an very likely accomodation for
eavesdropping:
https://www.mail-archive.com/alsa-user@lists.sourceforge.net/msg31928.html

And where's the magic that does it, to do away with that sad (to not say
silly) requirement, in Gentoo patchset?

> > 
> It's my pleasure. I only run PA and dbus for OBS Studio. One day this
> system will be back to vanilla ALSA with apulse to fill in any gaps. :)
> 
> I'm glad you were able to find a solution. Audio is one of those things
> that's almost unique to every system and problems in one system (even
> with the same hardware) may not match the other, so I chose to give you
> a handful of options to try, since it's not always clear which solution
> is best.
And we figured out, and solved it. But the pleasure was mine!

> If you ever get sick of manually updating the card numbers, you could
> probably write a script for it.
Sure, but it's not often that I happen to need to change the card
numbers. 
> Happy browsing,
Thanks!
> 
> ~zlg
> -- 
> Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
> OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
> fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6
> 

Regards!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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[gentoo-user] Re: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2016-10-16 06:55, Miroslav Rovis wrote:

> Mozilla went pulse all the way:
>  Require PulseAudio on Linux
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056
> See also:
> Firefox nightly requires Pulse Audio
> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=130028

Thanks for alerting me to another reason why pinning firefox to <44 is
now a permanent feature of my system.

-- 
Please *no* private Cc: on mailing lists and newsgroups
Personal signed mail: please _encrypt_ and sign
Don't clear-text sign: http://cr.yp.to/smtp/8bitmime.html

Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[David M. Fellows]

>Hi,
>
>this evening I updated GENTOO and a new firefox was installed.
>This one seem completly to disable flash video finally...
>since I got no video/audio at all.
>
>I disabled all flash-related addons of my firefox and
>restarted  it.
>
>Now I got a video ... but without any audio.
>(I am running jackd by the way).
>I check with qjackctl whether there were any
>ports which I missed to connect...nothing.
>
>Hmmm...

Did you also update adobe-flash and depclean at about the same time?
Check which versions of adobe-flash are installed.
For firefox on x86 you need adobe-flash:0 (currently 11.2.202.637)
For firefox on amd64 you need either adobe-flash:0 (currently 11.2.202.637)
OR adobe-flash:22 (currently 23.0.0.185) and freshplayerplugin.

If you had adobe-flash in @world, unslotted, recent updates will have installed the
23.... versions and a subsequent depclean would remove the 11.... version.

>
>Is there any fix for that?
>
>Best regards,
>Meino
>
>
>
>
DaveF

[gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Miroslav Rovis]

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Hi!

Possibly bad news (for pure ALSA users)! Read the new comment at:

Require PulseAudio to play sound on Linux
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056#c178

BTW, lots of comments are disallowed as "advocacy". Many users
complained. I took time and did some investigation:
( in that other thread... details best found starting from maybe this
email:
Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...
https://marc.info/?l=gentoo-user&m=147953595617288&w=2
and later
)
, and fixed audio in my Gentoo, thanks also to help by developers here
and one (contributing) at ALSA ML.

I still have audio in my Firefox, and my ebuilds have for years now
contained: "-pulseaudio":
www-client/firefox-50.0.2

such as when playing Vimeo/Youtube/any other, in HTML, I have both video
and audio.

But as you can see, they see to insist to disable pure ALSA, and impose
on everyone using Firefox, to install pusleaudio if they want to view
videos in Firefox, and be able to listen to the sound of those video.

The title of that bug now carries:
Target Milestone: 	mozilla52

so it's not immediate (but pls note that it was claimed otherwise
previously, previous target was earliear, IIUC).

In my stron opinion, and opinions are allowed in Gentoo, just not
imposing your opinion onto others (and that I am not doing, feel free
to disagree!), pulseadio is spyware, read more here:

Re: [Alsa-user] sans-pulseaudio Firefox? was: a strange thing
https://www.mail-archive.com/alsa-user@lists.sourceforge.net/msg31928.html

I'll try and ask on Alsa-user whether this decision makes a real threat
to remain without audio for all users who want to stick with pure ALSA
(I will never install pulseaudio).

If some Gentoo developers, and there usually are a few, are reading here, is
this a serious possibility that -pulseaudio useflag users will remain
with silent Firefox, or is this just noise on the part of some
...particularly inclined Mozilla devs with some decision power?

(I already asked such a question:
Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...
https://marc.info/?l=gentoo-user&m=148054527030206&w=2
but didn't get a reply, but, apparently, so far the "pulseaudio required"
was bogus for the previous target which was Firefox46 IIUC, or?)

Thanks for the kind consideration!

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[John Covici]

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 05:19:51 -0500,
Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> 
> [1  <text/plain; us-ascii (quoted-printable)>]
> Hi!
> 
> Possibly bad news (for pure ALSA users)! Read the new comment at:
> 
> Require PulseAudio to play sound on Linux
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056#c178
> 
> BTW, lots of comments are disallowed as "advocacy". Many users
> complained. I took time and did some investigation:
> ( in that other thread... details best found starting from maybe this
> email:
> Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...
> https://marc.info/?l=gentoo-user&m=147953595617288&w=2
> and later
> )
> , and fixed audio in my Gentoo, thanks also to help by developers here
> and one (contributing) at ALSA ML.
> 
> I still have audio in my Firefox, and my ebuilds have for years now
> contained: "-pulseaudio":
> www-client/firefox-50.0.2
> 
> such as when playing Vimeo/Youtube/any other, in HTML, I have both video
> and audio.
> 
> But as you can see, they see to insist to disable pure ALSA, and impose
> on everyone using Firefox, to install pusleaudio if they want to view
> videos in Firefox, and be able to listen to the sound of those video.
> 
> The title of that bug now carries:
> Target Milestone: 	mozilla52
> 
> so it's not immediate (but pls note that it was claimed otherwise
> previously, previous target was earliear, IIUC).
> 
> In my stron opinion, and opinions are allowed in Gentoo, just not
> imposing your opinion onto others (and that I am not doing, feel free
> to disagree!), pulseadio is spyware, read more here:
> 
> Re: [Alsa-user] sans-pulseaudio Firefox? was: a strange thing
> https://www.mail-archive.com/alsa-user@lists.sourceforge.net/msg31928.html
> 
> I'll try and ask on Alsa-user whether this decision makes a real threat
> to remain without audio for all users who want to stick with pure ALSA
> (I will never install pulseaudio).
> 
> If some Gentoo developers, and there usually are a few, are reading here, is
> this a serious possibility that -pulseaudio useflag users will remain
> with silent Firefox, or is this just noise on the part of some
> ...particularly inclined Mozilla devs with some decision power?
> 
> (I already asked such a question:
> Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...
> https://marc.info/?l=gentoo-user&m=148054527030206&w=2
> but didn't get a reply, but, apparently, so far the "pulseaudio required"
> was bogus for the previous target which was Firefox46 IIUC, or?)
> 
> Thanks for the kind consideration!
>

Using 50.0.2, I hadto enablepulseaudio and in the /etc/pulseaudio I
had to set spawn=yes in client.conf before I could hear anything.
Bummer.

-- 
Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
How do
you spend it?

         John Covici
         covici@ccs.covici.com

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Arve Barsnes]

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On 16 December 2016 at 11:54, John Covici <covici@ccs.covici.com> wrote:

> Using 50.0.2, I hadto enablepulseaudio and in the /etc/pulseaudio I
> had to set spawn=yes in client.conf before I could hear anything.
> Bummer.
>

I did not have to do this, and I still have sound on 50.1.0.

Arve

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 5:19 AM, Miroslav Rovis
<miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> wrote:
>
> In my stron opinion, and opinions are allowed in Gentoo, just not
> imposing your opinion onto others (and that I am not doing, feel free
> to disagree!), pulseadio is spyware, read more here:
>
> Re: [Alsa-user] sans-pulseaudio Firefox? was: a strange thing
> https://www.mail-archive.com/alsa-user@lists.sourceforge.net/msg31928.html
>

What exactly about Pulseaudio do you think makes it "spyware?"  The
fact that it supports remote connections?  I hope you're not using
X11...

Obviously you do need to use a secure configuration so that random
hosts aren't tapping your microphone, but it would be news to me if
this was allowed in the default configuration (and certainly a bug
that should be fixed on Gentoo).

I never bothered to migrate to pulseaudio for years, but started
having random issues when logging into multiple X11 sessions from
multiple users (probably a console permissions thing).  Moving to
pulse fixed that, and was surprisingly simple.  While many probably
don't need its features it makes a lot of sense to me...

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161216-07:16-0500, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 5:19 AM, Miroslav Rovis
> <miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> wrote:
> >
> > In my stron opinion, and opinions are allowed in Gentoo, just not
> > imposing your opinion onto others (and that I am not doing, feel free
> > to disagree!), pulseadio is spyware, read more here:
> >
> > Re: [Alsa-user] sans-pulseaudio Firefox? was: a strange thing
> > https://www.mail-archive.com/alsa-user@lists.sourceforge.net/msg31928.html
> >
> 
> What exactly about Pulseaudio do you think makes it "spyware?"  The
You're right actually. Or might be. It is likely not spyware in itself,
but it surely is spyware enabler. Like dbus and all of poetterware.

And about xorg. Everybody uses it, I do too. Minimalistically. Just
enough to have, say Firefox and Wireshark, and a good *nix programs that
need gui. But I'd think the possibilities for spying-required remote
connections with xorg are nowhere near to what poetterware and
associates offer. That's why they came into existance, after all.

But you are free to disagree.
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 8:13 AM, Miroslav Rovis
<miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> wrote:
> On 161216-07:16-0500, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 5:19 AM, Miroslav Rovis
>> <miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> wrote:
>> >
>> > In my stron opinion, and opinions are allowed in Gentoo, just not
>> > imposing your opinion onto others (and that I am not doing, feel free
>> > to disagree!), pulseadio is spyware, read more here:
>> >
>> > Re: [Alsa-user] sans-pulseaudio Firefox? was: a strange thing
>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/alsa-user@lists.sourceforge.net/msg31928.html
>> >
>>
>> What exactly about Pulseaudio do you think makes it "spyware?"  The
> You're right actually. Or might be. It is likely not spyware in itself,
> but it surely is spyware enabler. Like dbus and all of poetterware.
>
> And about xorg. Everybody uses it, I do too. Minimalistically. Just
> enough to have, say Firefox and Wireshark, and a good *nix programs that
> need gui. But I'd think the possibilities for spying-required remote
> connections with xorg are nowhere near to what poetterware and
> associates offer.
>

I'm not sure I understand what distinction you're making.  I can't say
I'm intimately familiar with the security model around Pulseaudio (at
a glance it seems similar to X11 with its use of cookies, though
obviously if you tell it to broadcast unencrypted multicast RTP on
your LAN you'll get the obvious effects) but X11 has a couple of
glaring security weaknesses.  The most obvious is the fact that any
random X11 client can read the keyboard input of any other client on
the same server unless you jump through a bunch of hoops that I don't
think anybody actually jumps through (though I do believe some of the
X11 PIN entry programs may use them at least).  Anything you type into
an xterm could be read by your browser, and in turn by any code able
to execute outside any sandbox that browser might have (root privs not
needed for this).

And I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of X servers still run as root
for modesetting/etc.

> That's why they came into existance, after all.

Uh, somehow I doubt that Lennart wrote Pulseaudio just to simplify the
task of getting audio off of a local host so that somebody can spy on
you.  Maybe it had something to do with the fact that before it came
along just doing something like plugging a USB headset into a Linux
desktop was a bit of a chore?

Well, if you prefer not to use Pulse, that's of course up to you.  I
wasn't running it for ages, and I probably still wouldn't be running
it if I didn't have issues with running multiple desktop sessions as
separate users (one of those things that stuff like pulse+policykit
and so on was designed to help fix).

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161216-08:35-0500, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 8:13 AM, Miroslav Rovis
> <miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> wrote:
> > On 161216-07:16-0500, Rich Freeman wrote:
> >> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 5:19 AM, Miroslav Rovis
> >> <miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > In my stron opinion, and opinions are allowed in Gentoo, just not
> >> > imposing your opinion onto others (and that I am not doing, feel free
> >> > to disagree!), pulseadio is spyware, read more here:
> >> >
> >> > Re: [Alsa-user] sans-pulseaudio Firefox? was: a strange thing
> >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/alsa-user@lists.sourceforge.net/msg31928.html
> >> >
> >>
> >> What exactly about Pulseaudio do you think makes it "spyware?"  The
> > You're right actually. Or might be. It is likely not spyware in itself,
> > but it surely is spyware enabler. Like dbus and all of poetterware.
> >
> > And about xorg. Everybody uses it, I do too. Minimalistically. Just
> > enough to have, say Firefox and Wireshark, and a good *nix programs that
> > need gui. But I'd think the possibilities for spying-required remote
> > connections with xorg are nowhere near to what poetterware and
> > associates offer.
> >
> 
> I'm not sure I understand what distinction you're making.  I can't say
> I'm intimately familiar with the security model around Pulseaudio (at
> a glance it seems similar to X11 with its use of cookies, though
> obviously if you tell it to broadcast unencrypted multicast RTP on
> your LAN you'll get the obvious effects) but X11 has a couple of
> glaring security weaknesses.  The most obvious is the fact that any
> random X11 client can read the keyboard input of any other client on
> the same server unless you jump through a bunch of hoops that I don't
> think anybody actually jumps through (though I do believe some of the
> X11 PIN entry programs may use them at least).  Anything you type into
> an xterm could be read by your browser, and in turn by any code able
> to execute outside any sandbox that browser might have (root privs not
> needed for this).

I don't claim it can not, but I doubt anyone can do it in my
grsecurity-hardened based Gentoo machine.

[ but first (I just now looked it up), I'm not match for you, you are a
Gentoo developer:
https://www.gentoo.org/inside-gentoo/developers/
where the link under "Rich0" opens:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/User:Rich0
and you would get a better reply from someone of your statue, which I'm
not ; and since we're at conditionalities, I'm sorry if I reply slowly,
I'm unable to work faster. ]

> And I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of X servers still run as root
> for modesetting/etc.

What user is that? It you want, tell me how to check it, and let's see
how spyware-prone my system is.

> > That's why they came into existance, after all.
> 
> Uh, somehow I doubt that Lennart wrote Pulseaudio just to simplify the
> task of getting audio off of a local host so that somebody can spy on
> you.  Maybe it had something to do with the fact that before it came
> along just doing something like plugging a USB headset into a Linux
> desktop was a bit of a chore?

It's been discussed over and over again. Lots of people are firm in
their understanding that Lennart is an actor by and for the big
business. Me too.

And, it's not about singular trees but the big picture, and I dare reply
even to you with the following argument.

Because this argument is understood even without being a programmer,
being this argument the sign of the time, so it's in the very big
picture.

And it's, to some extent, just repeating what I already wrote,
regardless of the singular trees looking deliciously innocent (running
your multiple desktop sessions looks so innocent and un-evil, almost like
Schmoog the Schmoogle!)...

The argument:

In this day and age, when the state- and other big actors virtually know
ever-nearer to virtually everything about everybody, there is not deaf
spot anywhere in public, and not even in your own home you are not
audio-alone, but rather you are automatically recorded anywhere you go,
and that wholesale spying is undeniable, thanks to Edward Snowden...

In that big picture, whatever would anybody say that this complex new
Pulseaudio code, that communicates to anywhere, local or remote,
whatever would anybody try to claim that that perfect --but also the
spying firm the Schmoog is perfect as well, and really really not "not
evil", they sold so many people!-- whatever would anybody try to claim
that that perfect code is for...

Whatever would anybody try to claim
that that perfect code is for, but, let alone the nice trees like the
ones you mention, let them alone... Because it's like saying: oh how
good my dear Schmoog the Schmoogle is, look, I can post any video I
want, and I don't pay for it!... And that's like saying: how good my new
Galaxy Android is... mobile phones, the eavesdropper devices good?! (Oh,
for the feeble of mind, not for you, the user, no! But for the state-
and other big actors eavesdropper device that you paid for so that they
can record you...)

Whatever would anybody try to claim Pulseaudio code is, but to make up
for what was missing in some FOSS GNU Linux boxen for the missing
functionality that the big players couldn't otherwise get for their
Total Surveillance...

And they couldn't get it because there are some, developers/users alike,
and...

=====================================================================
I thank here all the developers thanks to whom I don't have to use
neither Systemd nor Pulseaudio, nor Dbus, nor Policykit nor any
poetterware...
=====================================================================

I thank them most sincerely!

[And they couldn't get it because there are some, developers/users alike],
who stubbornly do not want to live with massive intrusion into their
boxen, which their, the big players' one-ring-to-rule-them all agenda,
comprising total surveillance, is...

But maybe I wrote in more to the point in the other link further about,
which you left standing... Don't know.


> Well, if you prefer not to use Pulse, that's of course up to you.  I
> wasn't running it for ages, and I probably still wouldn't be running
> it if I didn't have issues with running multiple desktop sessions as
> separate users (one of those things that stuff like pulse+policykit
> and so on was designed to help fix).
> 
> -- 
> Rich
> 

Respectfully!

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Miroslav Rovis
<miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> wrote:
> On 161216-08:35-0500, Rich Freeman wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure I understand what distinction you're making.  I can't say
>> I'm intimately familiar with the security model around Pulseaudio (at
>> a glance it seems similar to X11 with its use of cookies, though
>> obviously if you tell it to broadcast unencrypted multicast RTP on
>> your LAN you'll get the obvious effects) but X11 has a couple of
>> glaring security weaknesses.  The most obvious is the fact that any
>> random X11 client can read the keyboard input of any other client on
>> the same server unless you jump through a bunch of hoops that I don't
>> think anybody actually jumps through (though I do believe some of the
>> X11 PIN entry programs may use them at least).  Anything you type into
>> an xterm could be read by your browser, and in turn by any code able
>> to execute outside any sandbox that browser might have (root privs not
>> needed for this).
>
> I don't claim it can not, but I doubt anyone can do it in my
> grsecurity-hardened based Gentoo machine.

As far as I'm aware grsecurity provides no protection against X11
client evesdropping.  This is an X11 "feature" and not an exploit
per-se.

Here is one overview of the possibilities:
https://pipefish.me/2012/08/28/spying-on-screens-and-keystrokes-the-dangers-of-open-x11/

Any program that has access to your X11 cookie and which can connect
to your X server (which includes anything actually displaying a window
on your screen), can generally grab any of the keyboard input bound
for any window on your screen.  There are ways for programs to block
this, but they're not super-practical.

Amusingly enough I stumbled upon this blog:
https://blog.separateconcerns.com/2014-10-24-cli-passwords.html

This page "helpfully" suggests that you can secure your system by
using a console pinentry program instead of an X11-based one, with the
underlying assumption being that console software is more secure for
this sort of thing.  While the basic assumption is probably true, in
this particular case it is definitely not.  Entering a password on an
actual virtual console or over ssh is in fact secure.  However,
entering it into an xterm (which is presumably what you're using if
you would otherwise be using an x11 pinentry program) is absolutely
not secure.  The x11 pinentry program probably uses XGrabKeyboard to
ensure that other clients can't evesdrop, while the console-based
version doesn't know anything about x11.  Some xterm implementations
have a secure mode buried in the menus which turns on this mode which
you can use to safely enter passwords, but almost nobody knows about
this.

There are a lot of "cargo cult" tips out there which are based on a
lack of understanding of how software like X11 actually work.  Of
course, X11 is so convoluted that almost nobody actually understands
everything about how it works, which is why Wayland has always been
right around the corner.  In general, though, it largely dates back to
an era where people had rsh listening on all their hosts.

>
>> And I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of X servers still run as root
>> for modesetting/etc.
>
> What user is that? It you want, tell me how to check it, and let's see
> how spyware-prone my system is.

If you don't have USE=-suid on your xorg-server package, then X is
probably running suid root.

In order to not have it run this way you need support for kernel
modesetting.  I was surprised when I found out that X11 even worked
that way (we're talking late 90s here).  It seems a bit like running
pppd as root so that it can directly talk to a UART because you have
an aversion to using /dev/ttyS*.  In any case the kernel devs have
generally been making the move to kernel modesetting so that your
device drivers actually are in the kernel and not in random userspace
programs (I'm all for microkernels, but not like this).

If you don't have kernel modesetting enabled then X11 won't be able to
run with -suid set.  Google for gentoo kernel modesetting for a guide
on how to enable it on most modern hardware.

>
> It's been discussed over and over again. Lots of people are firm in
> their understanding that Lennart is an actor by and for the big
> business. Me too.

Well, he is a Red Hat employee.  Nobody really debates that.

>
> Whatever would anybody try to claim Pulseaudio code is, but to make up
> for what was missing in some FOSS GNU Linux boxen for the missing
> functionality that the big players couldn't otherwise get for their
> Total Surveillance...
>

Uh, if the NSA wanted to spy on your box I doubt they'd do it by
trying to sneak something into the open-source pulseaudio code that
has numerous maintainers and which is copied all over the place.

They'd probably just load some microcode into your audio hardware, and
have it talk to some microcode in your NIC hardware, and if they
needed some buffer they'd work it into your hard drive firmware.  Then
it works no matter what OS you're using at the moment, or even if you
boot off of a DVD.

And if they did want to do it more traditionally in userspace, they'd
hardly be foiled because you aren't running Pulseaudio.  They'd just
modify your ALSA drivers or run a program that simply opens your
microphone and sends the audio to some remote host.

In the end whether software works for you or against you largely
depends on how well you understand how it all works.  Don't get me
wrong, there are lots of good reasons not to use Pulseaudio.  I
probably wouldn't run it on a server, unless it was something like a
home music server.  However, on a traditional desktop it is generally
useful because it enables all kinds of sticky stuff that historically
has been difficult, and which seem like the sort of things that should
be easy.  Most people would expect to be able to plug a USB headset
into a laptop and have it "just work."  Older approaches like ALSA
were designed for a more static world.

It isn't unlike CUPS.  Sure, if all you need is to occasionally print
to a postfix printer on a serial/parallel port then you don't really
need it.  However, for just about everything else it helps quite a
bit.  Software usually gets written and becomes popular because it
scratches some kind of itch.

If there is software that you don't care for, I suggest learning how
it works anyway.  Knowledge is power.  Besides, you never know when
you'll need to evesdrop on somebody in an emergency...  :)

-- 
Rich

[gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2016-12-16 14:16, Rich Freeman wrote:

> If you don't have USE=-suid on your xorg-server package, then X is
> probably running suid root.
> 
> In order to not have it run this way you need support for kernel
> modesetting.  I was surprised when I found out that X11 even worked
> that way (we're talking late 90s here).  It seems a bit like running
> pppd as root so that it can directly talk to a UART because you have
> an aversion to using /dev/ttyS*.  In any case the kernel devs have
> generally been making the move to kernel modesetting so that your
> device drivers actually are in the kernel and not in random userspace
> programs (I'm all for microkernels, but not like this).
> 
> If you don't have kernel modesetting enabled then X11 won't be able to
> run with -suid set.  Google for gentoo kernel modesetting for a guide
> on how to enable it on most modern hardware.

There's another dimension to this dilemma: if one wants to avoid using a
display manager and start X server directly (or via startx or similar),
then the X server must be suid for that reason, even with KMS.
Unfortunately.

I am not hotly interested in starting a subthread about why one would
want to do this, but if others are, go ahead :-P

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 3:12 PM, Ian Zimmerman <itz@primate.net> wrote:
> On 2016-12-16 14:16, Rich Freeman wrote:
>
>> If you don't have USE=-suid on your xorg-server package, then X is
>> probably running suid root.
>>
>> In order to not have it run this way you need support for kernel
>> modesetting.  I was surprised when I found out that X11 even worked
>> that way (we're talking late 90s here).  It seems a bit like running
>> pppd as root so that it can directly talk to a UART because you have
>> an aversion to using /dev/ttyS*.  In any case the kernel devs have
>> generally been making the move to kernel modesetting so that your
>> device drivers actually are in the kernel and not in random userspace
>> programs (I'm all for microkernels, but not like this).
>>
>> If you don't have kernel modesetting enabled then X11 won't be able to
>> run with -suid set.  Google for gentoo kernel modesetting for a guide
>> on how to enable it on most modern hardware.
>
> There's another dimension to this dilemma: if one wants to avoid using a
> display manager and start X server directly (or via startx or similar),
> then the X server must be suid for that reason, even with KMS.
> Unfortunately.
>

I've never had issues starting X using startx on a radeon using kms,
and my server is not suid.  Offhand I couldn't say why you've had
issues with it, I haven't really looked into it in detail.

-- 
Rich

[gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2016-12-16 15:39, Rich Freeman wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 3:12 PM, Ian Zimmerman <itz@primate.net> wrote:

> > There's another dimension to this dilemma: if one wants to avoid
> > using a display manager and start X server directly (or via startx
> > or similar), then the X server must be suid for that reason, even
> > with KMS.  Unfortunately.
> >
> 
> I've never had issues starting X using startx on a radeon using kms,
> and my server is not suid.  Offhand I couldn't say why you've had
> issues with it, I haven't really looked into it in detail.

My opinion above was based on debian bug #582041 [1] and the Ubuntu
pages referenced by it.  Note that the bug is still open.  But it is
possible that it only remains open due to non-KMS video drivers.  Now
that I have your opinion (and I have Radeon too), I'll give it a try.
Thanks.

[1]
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=582041

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[gentoo-user] X w/o suid root [Was: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?]

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2016-12-16 14:55, Ian Zimmerman wrote:

> My opinion above was based on debian bug #582041 [1] and the Ubuntu
> pages referenced by it.  Note that the bug is still open.  But it is
> possible that it only remains open due to non-KMS video drivers.  Now
> that I have your opinion (and I have Radeon too), I'll give it a try.
> Thanks.

Well, I tried, and it doesn't work for me.

After re-merging x11-base/xorg-server package with the new USE settings,
first I tried what I have always done when running with suid; namely,
starting X with an explicit vt argument, approximately thus:

Xorg vt${vt} -nolisten tcp -s 0 -dpms

where the vt variable it set dynamically, but it is actually the same vt
from which I run the command.  This results in:

[  2890.175] (++) using VT number 2

[  2890.175] (WW) xf86OpenConsole: VT_ACTIVATE failed: Operation not permitted
[  2890.175] (EE) 
Fatal server error:
[  2890.175] (EE) xf86OpenConsole: Switching VT failed
[  2890.175] (EE) 
[  2890.175] (EE) 

So then I removed the vt argument, thinking that the current vt should
be the default anyway - but apparently not, in this case I got:

[  3419.385] (EE) 
Fatal server error:
[  3419.385] (EE) parse_vt_settings: Cannot open /dev/tty0 (Permission denied)
[  3419.385] (EE) 
[  3419.385] (EE) 

and of course:

 [2+0]~$ ls -l /dev/tty0
crw--w---- 1 root tty 4, 0 Dec 16 14:31 /dev/tty0
 [3+0]~$ 

I wonder what I'm missing.  Provisional suspects: the *kits are setting
up perms for you in some odd non-Unixy but Xorg friendly way.

Kernel 4.4.26, xorg-server 1.18.4.

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Re: [gentoo-user] X w/o suid root [Was: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?]

[Simon Thelen]

On 16-12-16 at 15:58, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> After re-merging x11-base/xorg-server package with the new USE settings,
> first I tried what I have always done when running with suid; namely,
> starting X with an explicit vt argument, approximately thus:
> 
> Xorg vt${vt} -nolisten tcp -s 0 -dpms
> 
> where the vt variable it set dynamically, but it is actually the same vt
> from which I run the command.  This results in:
> 
> [  2890.175] (++) using VT number 2
> 
> [  2890.175] (WW) xf86OpenConsole: VT_ACTIVATE failed: Operation not permitted
> [  2890.175] (EE) 
> Fatal server error:
> [  2890.175] (EE) xf86OpenConsole: Switching VT failed
> [  2890.175] (EE) 
> [  2890.175] (EE) 
Have you tried reading through [1] ? Specifically being in the
video/input groups. Also maybe check that you have modesetting built
into the kernel and maybe check Xorg.0.log about modesetting related
messages.

[..]
> I wonder what I'm missing.  Provisional suspects: the *kits are setting
> up perms for you in some odd non-Unixy but Xorg friendly way.
I don't have any of the *kits installed and it works fine here.
 
> Kernel 4.4.26, xorg-server 1.18.4.
Kernel 4.8.13, xorg-server 1.18.4, xf86-video-intel 2.99.917_p20161118
 
[1]: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Non_root_Xorg

-- 
Simon Thelen

[gentoo-user] Re: X w/o suid root

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2016-12-17 02:12, Simon Thelen wrote:

> Have you tried reading through [1] ? Specifically being in the
> video/input groups. Also maybe check that you have modesetting built
> into the kernel and maybe check Xorg.0.log about modesetting related
> messages.

> [1]: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Non_root_Xorg

I checked everything that (pleasantly short) article indicates.  Most of
it was already in place, except the input group permission.  I took care
of that by making Xorg setgid to the input group.  But no luck:  it
still fails exactly the same way:

> > [  2890.175] (++) using VT number 2
> > [  2890.175] (WW) xf86OpenConsole: VT_ACTIVATE failed: Operation not permitted
> > [  2890.175] (EE) xf86OpenConsole: Switching VT failed

Looking at kernel sources, it seems obvious this means the test at
drivers/tty/vt/vt_ioctl.c around line 360 in vt_ioctl() fails.  Any idea
why it would fail for me and not others?  In particular why is it that
the X process has no controlling tty by this point - that's the check I
would expect to succeed?

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[gentoo-user] Re: X w/o suid root

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2016-12-17 21:35, Ian Zimmerman wrote:

> > > [  2890.175] (++) using VT number 2
> > > [  2890.175] (WW) xf86OpenConsole: VT_ACTIVATE failed: Operation not permitted
> > > [  2890.175] (EE) xf86OpenConsole: Switching VT failed

I made some progress, but now I am blocked in an even tougher place :-(

The error above had a simple and amusing cause.  My shell code that run
startx redirected both stdout and stderr to a logfile.  And Xorg
inspects those file descriptors to guess what the current vt is, so that
when the _requested_ vt is the same, it can avoid the switch, which does
require root.  So, when I left stdout and stderr going to the terminal
this part started working. [1]

But now I hit the error chronicled at [2].  A look at kernel source, in
drivers/gpu/drm/drm_ioctl.c, shows that the relevant kernel ioctl is
declared thus:

	DRM_IOCTL_DEF(DRM_IOCTL_SET_MASTER, drm_setmaster_ioctl, DRM_ROOT_ONLY),

at least in the kernel version I run (4.4.26) which doesn't inspire much
hope :-(

All this really does seem to depend on the precise GPU model one has.

[1]
This trick by Xorg is completely undocumented!  I really had to wallow
in the source code to discover it.

[2]
https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/178883/running-x-without-root

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[gentoo-user] Re: X w/o suid root

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2016-12-18 22:43, Ian Zimmerman wrote:

> But now I hit the error chronicled at [2].  A look at kernel source, in
> drivers/gpu/drm/drm_ioctl.c, shows that the relevant kernel ioctl is
> declared thus:
> 
> 	DRM_IOCTL_DEF(DRM_IOCTL_SET_MASTER, drm_setmaster_ioctl, DRM_ROOT_ONLY),

And the answer is .. OF COURSE!! .. systemd.

With systemd integration, the get_drm_info() function in xorg source file
hw/xfree86/os-support/linux/lnx_platform.c sets the server_fd flag,
which makes it do this later:

    if (server_fd)
        xf86_platform_devices[delayed_index].flags |= XF86_PDEV_SERVER_FD;

.. which makes the radeon_set_drm_master() function in xf86-video-ati
file src/radeon_kms.c immediately return TRUE and bypass the failing
ioctl(DRM_IOCTL_SET_MASTER).

So now I know that my only way to non-suid (and anyone else with similar
hardware and without systemd) is to patch the X source, and/or the
kernel source.  I'll probably take a few days break from this issue
pondering if it's worth it.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: X w/o suid root

[Michael Mol]

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On Monday, December 19, 2016 3:35:24 PM EST Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> On 2016-12-18 22:43, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> > But now I hit the error chronicled at [2].  A look at kernel source, in
> > drivers/gpu/drm/drm_ioctl.c, shows that the relevant kernel ioctl is
> > 
> > declared thus:
> > 	DRM_IOCTL_DEF(DRM_IOCTL_SET_MASTER, drm_setmaster_ioctl, DRM_ROOT_ONLY),
> 
> And the answer is .. OF COURSE!! .. systemd.
> 
> With systemd integration, the get_drm_info() function in xorg source file
> hw/xfree86/os-support/linux/lnx_platform.c sets the server_fd flag,
> which makes it do this later:
> 
>     if (server_fd)
>         xf86_platform_devices[delayed_index].flags |= XF86_PDEV_SERVER_FD;
> 
> .. which makes the radeon_set_drm_master() function in xf86-video-ati
> file src/radeon_kms.c immediately return TRUE and bypass the failing
> ioctl(DRM_IOCTL_SET_MASTER).
> 
> So now I know that my only way to non-suid (and anyone else with similar
> hardware and without systemd) is to patch the X source, and/or the
> kernel source.  I'll probably take a few days break from this issue
> pondering if it's worth it.

Patch it, test it, file a bug report and supply your patch. Seems to me you 
found a legitimate bug.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Taiidan]

Thoughts:
Pulseaudio, ahavi, systemd, etc, any and all pottering products - it 
really makes me wonder as to why the developers of every major distro 
suddenly all at once forced them all a community that didn't want or 
need them, with no easy way to disable them.

Firefox is a browser made by those who are all too willing to compromise 
their morals for profit (ads on newtab, google tracking software, pocket 
and telefonia integration, not even as an addon just simply no way to 
remove them), it is long overdue for a major fork. (gnu icecat exists, 
but it needs more developers to be a real fork)

It reminds me of facebook, with each and every update there is yet 
another obscure security/privacy setting or change that a power-user 
needs to fiddle with...

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 9:04 PM, Taiidan@gmx.com <Taiidan@gmx.com> wrote:
> Thoughts:
> Pulseaudio, ahavi, systemd, etc, any and all pottering products - it really
> makes me wonder as to why the developers of every major distro suddenly all
> at once forced them all a community that didn't want or need them, with no
> easy way to disable them.
>

Maybe the developers found them useful?  That's why I use those
particular programs at least, and I actually had to go out of my way
to install them on Gentoo...

Or, maybe the developers of every major distro are all getting paid
huge sums of money to sneak in back doors.  Seems like it would be
easier and less conspicuous to just pay them to put the back doors in
the software they were already using.  In any case, if this is the
case please let me know where I can pick up my check.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[R0b0t1]

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Or, maybe the developers of every major distro are all getting paid
> huge sums of money to sneak in back doors.  Seems like it would be
> easier and less conspicuous to just pay them to put the back doors in
> the software they were already using.  In any case, if this is the
> case please let me know where I can pick up my check.

Contained in the Snowden leaks was evidence that the NSA would either
be requested to advise and give bad advice, or surreptitiously get
someone hired at a company and have that person put forth bad advice.
I can find a citation if you want but they've fallen from the Google
results, so it would take some time.

Completely irrelevant, but don't you find it funny that in the movie
_Despicable Me_, the main character, Gru, shares name with the acronym
for the Russian military intelligence organization? For some reason I
find this amusing.

Sorry, got off topic again.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Daniel Campbell]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 7646 bytes --]

On 12/16/2016 06:04 PM, Taiidan@gmx.com wrote:
> Thoughts:
> Pulseaudio, ahavi, systemd, etc, any and all pottering products - it
> really makes me wonder as to why the developers of every major distro
> suddenly all at once forced them all a community that didn't want or
> need them, with no easy way to disable them.
> 
> Firefox is a browser made by those who are all too willing to compromise
> their morals for profit (ads on newtab, google tracking software, pocket
> and telefonia integration, not even as an addon just simply no way to
> remove them), it is long overdue for a major fork. (gnu icecat exists,
> but it needs more developers to be a real fork)
> 
> It reminds me of facebook, with each and every update there is yet
> another obscure security/privacy setting or change that a power-user
> needs to fiddle with...
> 

It generally comes down to convenience for a lot of maintainers.
Apparently some maintainers (mostly Arch and Debian) had a lot of
problems with the older software and would rather Embrace what was new
than maintain what was old. Others choose to go with the new thing so
they can close a bunch of old bugs or get rid of what they consider 'bad
code'... by replacing it with newer and (at the time) untested code.
Their time, their rules, I suppose. But I don't buy into that.

Additionally, at least one of the projects you listed were actively
suggested and peddled to the greater community. I won't go into
conspiracy stuff since you really don't need to; the facts are damning
enough:

* Poettering and his followers have actively pushed for systemd to be
default init on distributions. This is evidenced by Lennart's joining of
the GNOME Foundation and suggesting that systemd be a dependency of
GNOME back in 2011 [1], and followed of course by Fedora, Red Hat, and
SuSE, given his ties to others in those communities.

* One particular follower caused a lot of drama on Debian's mailing list
a while back, [2] derailing it into systemd-pushing. Said conduct was
*congratulated* and *encouraged* by Mr. Poettering on Google+. [3]

* There was a culture change at Arch after Aaron Griffin took the helm.
Whatever happened during the time between Judd's stepping down (Oct 1st,
2007) and systemd being pushed onto user machines (August of 2012 iirc),
it resulted in a few Arch developers gaining commit access to the main
systemd repository [4] and the general treatment of Fedora and Red Hat
as primary upstream by Arch.

Sources:
[1]
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2011-May/msg00427.html
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/11/msg00350.html
[3]
https://plus.google.com/+LennartPoetteringTheOneAndOnly/posts/jcCjMct3SJ3
(Ctrl+F "debian-devel"; from Dec 19th 2012)
[4]
"falconindy" -> Dave Reisner
https://github.com/falconindy
https://www.archlinux.org/people/developers/#dreisner

"tomegun" -> Tom Gundersen
https://github.com/teg
https://www.archlinux.org/people/developers/#tomegun

(cross-referenced from
https://github.com/systemd/systemd/graphs/contributors . As such, it
does not count merge-commits, which are irrelevant to this claim.)

---

(Everything laid out above is factual, with credible sources. No libel
or slander is intended in this e-mail. It is meant solely for
informative purposes. My opinion is below, and does not reflect Gentoo
policy or goals whatsoever.)

And again, because someone will inevitably cry foul and not read:

--- ABOVE ARE FACTS; BELOW IS MY OPINION, NOT GENTOO'S ---

Some people don't think software evangelism or peddling is bad. They're
entitled to that opinion. I personally find it horribly myopic, and
would rather a piece of software stand on its own merits, without a
marketing team trying to get people to use it. The push for these pieces
of software (all written by one particular guy...ain't that funny?)
stands out from the typical libre software projects (Random examples:
cgit, fluxbox, pelican, Tox), who at most get one large announcement and
maybe a few reblogs. Some may argue it's because these projects have a
good media team. I think evangelism taints software and detracts from
its merit. There's a fine line between "awareness" and "propaganda", and
it's important to walk it carefully.

These days, systemd evangelism is somewhat dead, unless you're a new
distro. Instead, the angle du jour is to court application makers and
figure out what they want to see in Pulse or systemd or whatever, then
put it in so the application developer will use it. Users are then
forced to adopt the packages or go without the program that they need
and/or use. This was attempted with kdbus (to force udev to run with
systemd -- good thing we forked it!), which has gone back to the drawing
board, and has been very effective with pulse (Steam, Skype, OBS Studio,
now Firefox...) This is a very shrewd practice that works on the
socially or politically unaware, and doubly so when combined with their
"technical or nothing" outlook on community.

Any person -- user or developer -- who chooses to ignore the world
around them in favor of the computer screen in front of them is missing
the rest of the libre software picture. It's all powered by people, and
every project will unavoidably have both its technical and its social
merit tested at some point or another. Ignoring it (or worse, forbidding
it) shows a distinct lack of maturity and introspection, imo. This
applies to both technical and social, though obviously I'm talking about
social merit, which fewer projects get right.

I currently run Pulse because OBS Studio requires it if you're going to
stream output *and* input; a use case that's possible with ALSA but docs
are scant on doing it right. A lot of people don't realize that Pulse is
actually on top of -- and requires -- ALSA. Have you tried using
media-sound/apulse with the new Firefox build(s)? I had a lot of success
with it when I was still purely ALSA; I'd like to return to that, if
only to send a message that homogenization agendas aren't welcome on my
machines. Just keep in mind that it (apulse) was meant solely for Skype.
The fact that it runs with other programs is just a bonus (or it
demonstrates how easily Pulse can be replaced and shim'd... depending on
your outlook).

As for Firefox, I don't really need sound in it. I use (and maintain,
full disclosure!) media-video/smtube and it works really well, though
I've only tested it on youtube so far. There's also net-misc/youtube-dl
if you want to hold onto videos for later. It supports more than
youtube, too! Should there ever be a hard dependency on Pulse, I'll
reject it and find some other browser project. I've been drifting away
from the Web for a year or two now, so I won't personally miss out on
much if I stop using Firefox (except the myriad security problems that
come with a browser + JS). The browser space is long overdue for some
competition. I'll gladly try out alternatives.

Sorry for the essay. I've discussed the subject a lot in the past and
hope that whatever others choose for their software, they choose *after*
investigating the situation and learning more. That way, they're making
the decision for themselves instead of following others. systemd is just
one choice among many, and I'm proud to be part of a distribution that
respects and enables user choice. I wouldn't have become a developer
otherwise.
-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 9:04 PM, Taiidan@gmx.com <Taiidan@gmx.com> wrote:
>
> Pulseaudio, ahavi, systemd, etc, any and all pottering products - it
> really makes me wonder as to why the developers of every major distro
> suddenly all at once forced them all a community that didn't want or
> need them, with no easy way to disable them.
>
> Firefox is a browser made by those who are all too willing to
> compromise their morals for profit (ads on newtab, google tracking
> software, pocket and telefonia integration.

Most users only care about usability and features.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 3:12 PM, Ian Zimmerman <itz@primate.net> wrote:
>
> There's another dimension to this dilemma: if one wants to avoid using a
> display manager and start X server directly (or via startx or similar),
> then the X server must be suid for that reason, even with KMS.

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Non_root_Xorg

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[R0b0t1]

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 1:16 PM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Miroslav Rovis
> <miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> wrote:
>> On 161216-08:35-0500, Rich Freeman wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not sure I understand what distinction you're making.  I can't say
>>> I'm intimately familiar with the security model around Pulseaudio (at
>>> a glance it seems similar to X11 with its use of cookies, though
>>> obviously if you tell it to broadcast unencrypted multicast RTP on
>>> your LAN you'll get the obvious effects) but X11 has a couple of
>>> glaring security weaknesses.  The most obvious is the fact that any
>>> random X11 client can read the keyboard input of any other client on
>>> the same server unless you jump through a bunch of hoops that I don't
>>> think anybody actually jumps through (though I do believe some of the
>>> X11 PIN entry programs may use them at least).  Anything you type into
>>> an xterm could be read by your browser, and in turn by any code able
>>> to execute outside any sandbox that browser might have (root privs not
>>> needed for this).
>>
>> I don't claim it can not, but I doubt anyone can do it in my
>> grsecurity-hardened based Gentoo machine.
>
> As far as I'm aware grsecurity provides no protection against X11
> client evesdropping.  This is an X11 "feature" and not an exploit
> per-se.
>
> Here is one overview of the possibilities:
> https://pipefish.me/2012/08/28/spying-on-screens-and-keystrokes-the-dangers-of-open-x11/
>
> Any program that has access to your X11 cookie and which can connect
> to your X server (which includes anything actually displaying a window
> on your screen), can generally grab any of the keyboard input bound
> for any window on your screen.  There are ways for programs to block
> this, but they're not super-practical.
>
> Amusingly enough I stumbled upon this blog:
> https://blog.separateconcerns.com/2014-10-24-cli-passwords.html
>
> This page "helpfully" suggests that you can secure your system by
> using a console pinentry program instead of an X11-based one, with the
> underlying assumption being that console software is more secure for
> this sort of thing.  While the basic assumption is probably true, in
> this particular case it is definitely not.  Entering a password on an
> actual virtual console or over ssh is in fact secure.  However,
> entering it into an xterm (which is presumably what you're using if
> you would otherwise be using an x11 pinentry program) is absolutely
> not secure.  The x11 pinentry program probably uses XGrabKeyboard to
> ensure that other clients can't evesdrop, while the console-based
> version doesn't know anything about x11.  Some xterm implementations
> have a secure mode buried in the menus which turns on this mode which
> you can use to safely enter passwords, but almost nobody knows about
> this.
>
> There are a lot of "cargo cult" tips out there which are based on a
> lack of understanding of how software like X11 actually work.  Of
> course, X11 is so convoluted that almost nobody actually understands
> everything about how it works, which is why Wayland has always been
> right around the corner.  In general, though, it largely dates back to
> an era where people had rsh listening on all their hosts.
>
>>
>>> And I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of X servers still run as root
>>> for modesetting/etc.
>>
>> What user is that? It you want, tell me how to check it, and let's see
>> how spyware-prone my system is.
>
> If you don't have USE=-suid on your xorg-server package, then X is
> probably running suid root.
>
> In order to not have it run this way you need support for kernel
> modesetting.  I was surprised when I found out that X11 even worked
> that way (we're talking late 90s here).  It seems a bit like running
> pppd as root so that it can directly talk to a UART because you have
> an aversion to using /dev/ttyS*.  In any case the kernel devs have
> generally been making the move to kernel modesetting so that your
> device drivers actually are in the kernel and not in random userspace
> programs (I'm all for microkernels, but not like this).
>
> If you don't have kernel modesetting enabled then X11 won't be able to
> run with -suid set.  Google for gentoo kernel modesetting for a guide
> on how to enable it on most modern hardware.
>
>>
>> It's been discussed over and over again. Lots of people are firm in
>> their understanding that Lennart is an actor by and for the big
>> business. Me too.
>
> Well, he is a Red Hat employee.  Nobody really debates that.
>
>>
>> Whatever would anybody try to claim Pulseaudio code is, but to make up
>> for what was missing in some FOSS GNU Linux boxen for the missing
>> functionality that the big players couldn't otherwise get for their
>> Total Surveillance...
>>
>
> Uh, if the NSA wanted to spy on your box I doubt they'd do it by
> trying to sneak something into the open-source pulseaudio code that
> has numerous maintainers and which is copied all over the place.

There is at least one example of patches that, when taken together,
introduce a bug into code. A particularly insidious example is
described here:
https://freedom-to-tinker.com/2013/10/09/the-linux-backdoor-attempt-of-2003/
(no endorsement of the parent site implied).

And there are more mundane examples involving attempting to modify the
repository: https://lwn.net/Articles/57137/. This methodology is used
as there is greater ROI in subverting infrastructure. It's easier to
introduce mistakes than to find honest ones.

> They'd probably just load some microcode into your audio hardware, and
> have it talk to some microcode in your NIC hardware, and if they
> needed some buffer they'd work it into your hard drive firmware.  Then
> it works no matter what OS you're using at the moment, or even if you
> boot off of a DVD.

These types of exploits are reserved for military use against state
actors as a last resort. The thinking is withholding the complex, hard
to find - but also hard to create and emplace - exploits keeps them
relevant in case they are needed in the future.

Generally what is attempted first is compromise of communication
infrastructure, e.g. hacking your home router. They are easy targets
(intentionally; even secure users often don't realize their router's
firmware authenticity is not easily verifiable) and provide a point
from which to launch further attacks on your personal computer or
devices inside the network.

Anecdote: Friend of a friend's roomate was in the process of being
radicalized(?) and their router was hacked by the FBI.

> And if they did want to do it more traditionally in userspace, they'd
> hardly be foiled because you aren't running Pulseaudio.  They'd just
> modify your ALSA drivers or run a program that simply opens your
> microphone and sends the audio to some remote host.

I'd be worried about Intel AMT, the AMD variant, and the ARM variants,
which carry with them the implication that every computer since ~2008
can not be secured. Applying this reasoning to computer peripherals
concludes much the same thing. I suspect the prevalence of
phone-processor-based SBCs is in part due to the Chinese military
trying to obtain verifiably secure computing infrastructure.

Of course, all of this is offtopic.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Miroslav Rovis]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 8847 bytes --]

On 161216-14:16-0500, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Miroslav Rovis
> <miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> wrote:
> > On 161216-08:35-0500, Rich Freeman wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm not sure I understand what distinction you're making.  I can't say
> >> I'm intimately familiar with the security model around Pulseaudio (at
> >> a glance it seems similar to X11 with its use of cookies, though
> >> obviously if you tell it to broadcast unencrypted multicast RTP on
> >> your LAN you'll get the obvious effects) but X11 has a couple of
> >> glaring security weaknesses.  The most obvious is the fact that any
> >> random X11 client can read the keyboard input of any other client on
> >> the same server unless you jump through a bunch of hoops that I don't
> >> think anybody actually jumps through (though I do believe some of the
> >> X11 PIN entry programs may use them at least).  Anything you type into
> >> an xterm could be read by your browser, and in turn by any code able
> >> to execute outside any sandbox that browser might have (root privs not
> >> needed for this).
> >
> > I don't claim it can not, but I doubt anyone can do it in my
> > grsecurity-hardened based Gentoo machine.
> 
> As far as I'm aware grsecurity provides no protection against X11
> client evesdropping.  This is an X11 "feature" and not an exploit
> per-se.
I'm not a match to you. My knowledge is insufficient. So I've taken
notice of your claims. 

However, these below, they need more of my time, than I can afford. If I
manage to understand some, I'll possibly comment/reply.
> Here is one overview of the possibilities:
> https://pipefish.me/2012/08/28/spying-on-screens-and-keystrokes-the-dangers-of-open-x11/
> 
> Any program that has access to your X11 cookie and which can connect
> to your X server (which includes anything actually displaying a window
> on your screen), can generally grab any of the keyboard input bound
> for any window on your screen.  There are ways for programs to block
> this, but they're not super-practical.
> 
> Amusingly enough I stumbled upon this blog:
> https://blog.separateconcerns.com/2014-10-24-cli-passwords.html
> 
> This page "helpfully" suggests that you can secure your system by
> using a console pinentry program instead of an X11-based one, with the
> underlying assumption being that console software is more secure for
> this sort of thing.  While the basic assumption is probably true, in
> this particular case it is definitely not.  Entering a password on an
> actual virtual console or over ssh is in fact secure.  However,
> entering it into an xterm (which is presumably what you're using if
> you would otherwise be using an x11 pinentry program) is absolutely
> not secure.  The x11 pinentry program probably uses XGrabKeyboard to
> ensure that other clients can't evesdrop, while the console-based
> version doesn't know anything about x11.  Some xterm implementations
> have a secure mode buried in the menus which turns on this mode which
> you can use to safely enter passwords, but almost nobody knows about
> this.
> 
> There are a lot of "cargo cult" tips out there which are based on a
> lack of understanding of how software like X11 actually work.  Of
> course, X11 is so convoluted that almost nobody actually understands
> everything about how it works, which is why Wayland has always been
> right around the corner.  In general, though, it largely dates back to
> an era where people had rsh listening on all their hosts.
> 
> >
> >> And I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of X servers still run as root
> >> for modesetting/etc.
> >
> > What user is that? It you want, tell me how to check it, and let's see
> > how spyware-prone my system is.
> 
> If you don't have USE=-suid on your xorg-server package, then X is
> probably running suid root.
> 
> In order to not have it run this way you need support for kernel
> modesetting.  I was surprised when I found out that X11 even worked
> that way (we're talking late 90s here).  It seems a bit like running
> pppd as root so that it can directly talk to a UART because you have
> an aversion to using /dev/ttyS*.  In any case the kernel devs have
> generally been making the move to kernel modesetting so that your
> device drivers actually are in the kernel and not in random userspace
> programs (I'm all for microkernels, but not like this).
> 
> If you don't have kernel modesetting enabled then X11 won't be able to
> run with -suid set.  Google for gentoo kernel modesetting for a guide
> on how to enable it on most modern hardware.
I don't google. ddg.gg is way safer (the duckduckgo.com), way less
intrusive!

> >
> > It's been discussed over and over again. Lots of people are firm in
> > their understanding that Lennart is an actor by and for the big
> > business. Me too.
> 
> Well, he is a Red Hat employee.  Nobody really debates that.
> 
> >
> > Whatever would anybody try to claim Pulseaudio code is, but to make up
> > for what was missing in some FOSS GNU Linux boxen for the missing
> > functionality that the big players couldn't otherwise get for their
> > Total Surveillance...
> >
> 
> Uh, if the NSA wanted to spy on your box I doubt they'd do it by
> trying to sneak something into the open-source pulseaudio code that
> has numerous maintainers and which is copied all over the place.
> 
> They'd probably just load some microcode into your audio hardware, and
> have it talk to some microcode in your NIC hardware, and if they
> needed some buffer they'd work it into your hard drive firmware.  Then
> it works no matter what OS you're using at the moment, or even if you
> boot off of a DVD.
> 
> And if they did want to do it more traditionally in userspace, they'd
> hardly be foiled because you aren't running Pulseaudio.  They'd just
> modify your ALSA drivers or run a program that simply opens your
> microphone and sends the audio to some remote host.

It's not about me. And X11 can hardly be use for the purpose that I said
Pulseaudio is there for... So I'll just go on, for just a sentence or
two more, at the end of this message.

> In the end whether software works for you or against you largely
> depends on how well you understand how it all works.  Don't get me
> wrong, there are lots of good reasons not to use Pulseaudio.  I
> probably wouldn't run it on a server, unless it was something like a
> home music server.  However, on a traditional desktop it is generally
> useful because it enables all kinds of sticky stuff that historically
> has been difficult, and which seem like the sort of things that should
> be easy.  Most people would expect to be able to plug a USB headset
> into a laptop and have it "just work."  Older approaches like ALSA
> were designed for a more static world.
> 
> It isn't unlike CUPS.  Sure, if all you need is to occasionally print
> to a postfix printer on a serial/parallel port then you don't really
> need it.  However, for just about everything else it helps quite a
> bit.  Software usually gets written and becomes popular because it
> scratches some kind of itch.
> 
> If there is software that you don't care for, I suggest learning how
> it works anyway.  Knowledge is power.  Besides, you never know when
> you'll need to evesdrop on somebody in an emergency...  :)

Oh, yeah, the itch! You bet! It scratches them where they think they
like, until they won't be able to deal with consequences... And it sure
is coming, don't worry (oh, I don't see the future, but the whole world
is a plane where things happen for reasons and consequences).

And, say, to use the parallel that I used in my previous messages to
this one, the majority of people don't even think about their
eavesdropper devices, they just use them, it's their itch that those
satisfy! Well, I don't, for one, and I don't care in among how
non-numerous I belong, but I am one of those that don't carry the
eavesdropper stinking itch-satisfier around...

So, without Pulseaudio, how would the shadows record, in such comfy
manner, globally, on everybody, as they, you don't dispute that, do you,
as they globally do record?

That's what you forgot to give your opinion about! I really wish
somebody replied to that! Do they do it? Not? And without Pulseaudio,
how then, in such comfortable manner?

There, the few sentences, but the topic really is serious, will Firefox,
from Firefox52, in my machine, and in people who don't want Pulseaudio,
like I don't want it, be silent really from Firefox52, as some Mozilla
devs of a ...particular kind, promised, repeatedly on that Mozilla bug
page.

> -- 
> Rich
> 

Regards!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Walter Dnes]

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 11:27:08PM +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote

> There, the few sentences, but the topic really is serious, will
> Firefox, from Firefox52, in my machine, and in people who don't want
> Pulseaudio, like I don't want it, be silent really from Firefox52,
> as some Mozilla devs of a ...particular kind, promised, repeatedly
> on that Mozilla bug page.

  An alternative to Firefox is Pale Moon, http://linux.palemoon.org/
Disclosure... I'm involved as a volunteer with the Pale Moon project.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Taiidan]

What makes it better than icecat, iceweasel, foxcat, and so on?

On 12/17/2016 12:59 AM, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 11:27:08PM +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote
>
>> There, the few sentences, but the topic really is serious, will
>> Firefox, from Firefox52, in my machine, and in people who don't want
>> Pulseaudio, like I don't want it, be silent really from Firefox52,
>> as some Mozilla devs of a ...particular kind, promised, repeatedly
>> on that Mozilla bug page.
>    An alternative to Firefox is Pale Moon, http://linux.palemoon.org/
> Disclosure... I'm involved as a volunteer with the Pale Moon project.
>

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Walter Dnes]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 03:08:36AM -0500, Taiidan@gmx.com wrote
> What makes it better than icecat, iceweasel, foxcat, and so on?

  I don't use any of them, so I can't do a comparison.  BTW, Iceweasel
is no more https://wiki.debian.org/Iceweasel

> As of 9th of June, 2016 the package Firefox-ESR replaces Iceweasel,
> and is in Wheezy and Jessie security repositories.

  Pale Moon is an independant fork of Firefox.  It was based on Firefox
code as a starting point but is going its own way; e.g. no
Atrocious^H^H^H^H^H^H Austraulis UI.  That was what drove me away from
it.  I've always customised the menus for maximum usable screen space,
plus text (not icons) for the menu.

  I wasn't initially concerned when that version of Firefox showed up.
What shocked me was the fact that Firefox removed the ability to
customize the UI to the "classic" look.  They must've realized that
people would hate Austraulis.  Soon, the most-downloaded addons were
"classic UI restorer" addons.

  I switched to Sea Monkey for a while, and eventually to Pale Moon.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161217-00:59-0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 11:27:08PM +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote
> 
> > There, the few sentences, but the topic really is serious, will
> > Firefox, from Firefox52, in my machine, and in people who don't want
> > Pulseaudio, like I don't want it, be silent really from Firefox52,
> > as some Mozilla devs of a ...particular kind, promised, repeatedly
> > on that Mozilla bug page.
> 
>   An alternative to Firefox is Pale Moon, http://linux.palemoon.org/
> Disclosure... I'm involved as a volunteer with the Pale Moon project.

And I've been hunting for an answer from Pale Moon people, for quite a
while. Even on this list, I tried to ask Martin Vaeth, I think he works
with the ebuilds of Pale moon, find this non-replied-to email in your
local gentoo-user archives:
# Message-ID: <20161016201000.GF5079@g0n.xdwgrp>
# References: <20161014175927.8360.2C6B93AA@matica.foolinux.mooo.com>
#       	<slrno06lt6.va0.martin@lounge.imp.fu-berlin.de>

and the link (to that mail on web) is coming up later.

But the main question I put on the Pale Moon forums:

coming up later too.

I have broken Mesa currently, downgrading it (slow system)
(
and can't even give you the bug in question for the same reason, that
later too...
)
, well, Firefox segfaults on it, and it's
my only browser that I like to go to the internet with, exactly because
I can later read whatever happens.

> -- 
> Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
> I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications
> 

The question is about whether the reading of the network (of course I
mean really decrypting the SSL traffic) will be implemented in Pale
Moon.

(
I was off, because I researched the really good links that Rich0 and
some others gave, mostly in one of the first replies (diverted replies)
to my question that this thread bears the subject line after... 
And got really entangled, but I don't know enough, so little use for the
topic.
)
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Miroslav Rovis]

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The links...

On 161217-23:44+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> On 161217-00:59-0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> > On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 11:27:08PM +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote
> > 
> > > There, the few sentences, but the topic really is serious, will
> > > Firefox, from Firefox52, in my machine, and in people who don't want
> > > Pulseaudio, like I don't want it, be silent really from Firefox52,
> > > as some Mozilla devs of a ...particular kind, promised, repeatedly
> > > on that Mozilla bug page.
> > 
> >   An alternative to Firefox is Pale Moon, http://linux.palemoon.org/
> > Disclosure... I'm involved as a volunteer with the Pale Moon project.
> 
> And I've been hunting for an answer from Pale Moon people, for quite a
> while. Even on this list, I tried to ask Martin Vaeth, I think he works
> with the ebuilds of Pale moon, find this non-replied-to email in your
> local gentoo-user archives:
> # Message-ID: <20161016201000.GF5079@g0n.xdwgrp>
> # References: <20161014175927.8360.2C6B93AA@matica.foolinux.mooo.com>
> #       	<slrno06lt6.va0.martin@lounge.imp.fu-berlin.de>
> 
> and the link (to that mail on web) is coming up later.
Re: Old Firefox ebuild?
https://marc.info/?l=gentoo-user&m=147664856528841&w=2

> But the main question I put on the Pale Moon forums:
> 
> coming up later too.
Tracking protection and NSS SSL secrets logging (two security
questions)?
https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=12544

> I have broken Mesa currently, downgrading it (slow system)
> (
> and can't even give you the bug in question for the same reason, that
> later too...
media-libs/mesa-13.0.0_rc2: libGL crashes on hardened AMD64
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=598593#c11
> )
> , well, Firefox segfaults on it, and it's
> my only browser that I like to go to the internet with, exactly because
> I can later read whatever happens.
> 
> > -- 
> > Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
> > I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications
> > 
> 
> The question is about whether the reading of the network (of course I
> mean really decrypting the SSL traffic) will be implemented in Pale
> Moon.
> 
> (
> I was off, because I researched the really good links that Rich0 and
> some others gave, mostly in one of the first replies (diverted replies)
> to my question that this thread bears the subject line after... 
> And got really entangled, but I don't know enough, so little use for the
> topic.
> )
> -- 

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Walter Dnes]

  I'm running Pale Moon.  In an xterm, I did...

export SSLKEYLOGFILE=/dev/shm/sslkeylogfile.txt

...and launched Pale Moon manually from the commandline. nd visited a
couple of https sites.  I did get /dev/shm/sslkeylogfile.txt which
begins with the line...

# SSL/TLS secrets log file, generated by NSS

  Following that are a bunch of lines starting with...

CLIENT_RANDOM

...followed by a space, followed by 161 random hex-numeric characters
i.e. [0-9a-f].

  I also saw a line beginning with...

RSA

...followed by a space, followed by 113 random hex-numeric characters
i.e. [0-9a-f].

  If you plan to do this regularly, your program launcher will need to
launch bash scripts with seperate filenames for each profile.  Maybe
append date-time stamp to filenames to avoid multiple sessions
overwriting each other.


  As for privacy, there are the usual features, like...

* asking sites to not track (don't trust that)
* control of which sites to accept/refuse regular cookies, and 3rd-party
  cookies, from
* whether or not to clear browsing and download history
* private browsing session

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Taiidan]

On 12/17/2016 08:56 PM, Walter Dnes wrote:

>    I'm running Pale Moon.  In an xterm, I did...
>
> export SSLKEYLOGFILE=/dev/shm/sslkeylogfile.txt
>
> ...and launched Pale Moon manually from the commandline. nd visited a
> couple of https sites.  I did get /dev/shm/sslkeylogfile.txt which
> begins with the line...
>
> # SSL/TLS secrets log file, generated by NSS
>
>    Following that are a bunch of lines starting with...
>
> CLIENT_RANDOM
>
> ...followed by a space, followed by 161 random hex-numeric characters
> i.e. [0-9a-f].
>
>    I also saw a line beginning with...
>
> RSA
>
> ...followed by a space, followed by 113 random hex-numeric characters
> i.e. [0-9a-f].
>
>    If you plan to do this regularly, your program launcher will need to
> launch bash scripts with seperate filenames for each profile.  Maybe
> append date-time stamp to filenames to avoid multiple sessions
> overwriting each other.
>
>
>    As for privacy, there are the usual features, like...
>
> * asking sites to not track (don't trust that)
> * control of which sites to accept/refuse regular cookies, and 3rd-party
>    cookies, from
> * whether or not to clear browsing and download history
> * private browsing session
random - I have always wondered why none of the "user respecting" forks 
nor mozilla have any serious efforts to thwart browser fingerprinting, 
private browsing session is simply a misnomer without it.

[gentoo-user] Reading the (SSL) traffic with Pale Moon, WAS: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA? Youtube... Audio: No

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161217-20:56-0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
>   I'm running Pale Moon.  In an xterm, I did...
> 
> export SSLKEYLOGFILE=/dev/shm/sslkeylogfile.txt
> 
> ...and launched Pale Moon manually from the commandline. nd visited a
> couple of https sites.  I did get /dev/shm/sslkeylogfile.txt which
> begins with the line...
> 
> # SSL/TLS secrets log file, generated by NSS
> 
>   Following that are a bunch of lines starting with...
> 
> CLIENT_RANDOM
> 
> ...followed by a space, followed by 161 random hex-numeric characters
> i.e. [0-9a-f].
> 
>   I also saw a line beginning with...
> 
> RSA
> 
> ...followed by a space, followed by 113 random hex-numeric characters
> i.e. [0-9a-f].

The very usual and familiar text that I take all --really all-- the
time. Ever since I was pwned:
System attacked, Konqueror went on window-popping spree!
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-905472.html
(
Ah, and my Vimeo videos are back; not the Youtube ones, and it happened
relatively recently that my vimeo videos are back, linked from that
five, 5, years old topic on Gentoo Forums, as I informed here when they
too were removed:
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-905472-start-25.html#7881412

Plus, no way for me to update the Forums, since some people, like one of
the Site Admins there, really don't like me:
Was I really hijacking topics from other members?
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1041614.html
Ctrl-F "your account has been banned.", currently still the very last
line, date was: "Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:14 am"
)

[Ever since I was pwned], I inquired a lot about this capabilitiy, and
some btwn 1 and 2 years ago I learned that since some times 2013 or
around there (so I was just around 2 years late from the beeding edge
development), Wireshark can read what Firefox SSL-keys captures, and
since then I capture SSL-keys all the time time.

>   If you plan to do this regularly, your program launcher will need to
> launch bash scripts with seperate filenames for each profile.  Maybe
> append date-time stamp to filenames to avoid multiple sessions
> overwriting each other.
In Firefox, you just need very little settings on the outside, :
https://wiki.wireshark.org/SSL
> 
>   As for privacy, there are the usual features, like...
> 
> * asking sites to not track (don't trust that)
> * control of which sites to accept/refuse regular cookies, and 3rd-party
>   cookies, from
> * whether or not to clear browsing and download history
> * private browsing session
I think some of the suggested extensions/addons here:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Tor
(sadly) use Australis I currently have eff-https everywhere,
RequestPolicy-continued, Privacy Badger, NoScript and Agent Spoofer.
Some of them, I read (but don't remember which ones), use Australis...

But...
> -- 
> Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
> I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications
> 
...But thanks, why was this so hard to tell... See there in the Pale
Moon forums, nobody replied (yet)...

How come people are so little interested to read the traffic?

I have all kinds of traces posted (
far from expert talk, but still
useful stuff in somebody wants to learn to read the traffic of his own:
http://www.croatiafidelis.hr/foss/cap/
)...

How come people are so little interested to read the traffic, to learn
how sites behave which they visit, and often to discover what sites
really do to them?

I'll go and inquire at the Pale Moon forum about the issues above, and
will post there this exact question above, I think.

Also, if this is really true, the Wireshark SSL wiki (the link above)
needs to be updated...

And more, wait...

Wait... Did you need to patch the nss library to get the $SSLKEYLOGFILE
being written to? Like in this bug:

>=dev-libs/nss-3.24 - Add USE flag to enable SSL key logging
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=587116

Did you? (That's about the only patch there, that I submitted to
Bugzilla anywhere ;-) btw.)

I'm puzzled... And overwhelmed with work, because I must now find time
to install and set Pale Moon to the (SSL) traffic (and I'm really a slow
worker).

(Still half-disbelieving... so surprised I am.)
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] Reading the (SSL) traffic with Pale Moon, WAS: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA? Youtube... Audio: No

[Walter Dnes]

> How come people are so little interested to read the traffic, to learn
> how sites behave which they visit, and often to discover what sites
> really do to them?
> 
> I'll go and inquire at the Pale Moon forum about the issues above, and
> will post there this exact question above, I think.

  This is a very obscure topic.  Maybe nobody who knows about it read
that post.  I only read 3 sub-forums...

* Announcements... for new versions, etc
* Pale Moon for Linux... because I run the linux version
* Contributed builds... I do an SSE-only contributed 32-bit build.  It
  is useful for older Pentium 3 class machines, which will not run the
  regular Pale Moon build.

  I couldn't find anything about NSS logging on Google... except your
question.  I followed the instructions in your post here, and that's how
I got it to work.  I did not know about it until you told me.

> Wait... Did you need to patch the nss library to get the $SSLKEYLOGFILE
> being written to? Like in this bug:
> 
> >=dev-libs/nss-3.24 - Add USE flag to enable SSL key logging
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=587116
> 
> Did you? (That's about the only patch there, that I submitted to
> Bugzilla anywhere ;-) btw.)

  No patches required to the source code for that.  I do my own custom
manual build, to eliminate the dependancy on dbus, plus other tweaks.
That involves setting options in the mozconfig file, but no source code
changes.  If you want to do your own build, see my post on December 9th
https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=13898&start=20#p100625
Note; this is version 2 of my build environment.  You should see an
attached file "pmmain.tgz" on that post.  Do not use version 1, with
(utils.tgz) in the first post of that thread.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] Reading the (SSL) traffic with Pale Moon, WAS: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA? Youtube... Audio: No

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161218-02:04-0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> > How come people are so little interested to read the traffic, to learn
> > how sites behave which they visit, and often to discover what sites
> > really do to them?
> > 
> > I'll go and inquire at the Pale Moon forum about the issues above, and
> > will post there this exact question above, I think.
> 
>   This is a very obscure topic.  Maybe nobody who knows about it read
> that post.  I only read 3 sub-forums...
> 
> * Announcements... for new versions, etc
> * Pale Moon for Linux... because I run the linux version
> * Contributed builds... I do an SSE-only contributed 32-bit build.  It
>   is useful for older Pentium 3 class machines, which will not run the
>   regular Pale Moon build.
> 
>   I couldn't find anything about NSS logging on Google... except your
Why the Schmoog engine? duckduckgo.com is some much more privacy acceptable...

But there are links too in the page that I posted the patch, below...

> question.  I followed the instructions in your post here, and that's how
> I got it to work.  I did not know about it until you told me.

If Palemoon logs SSL-keys, then it must use some of openssl, libressl,
gnutls, or the Mozilla/Google/Oracle (IIRC), but primary Mozilla program
Network Security Services, dev-libs/nss-3.27.2 .

> > Wait... Did you need to patch the nss library to get the $SSLKEYLOGFILE
> > being written to? Like in this bug:
> > 
> > >=dev-libs/nss-3.24 - Add USE flag to enable SSL key logging
> > https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=587116
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Projects/NSS/NSS_3.24_release_notes#Notable_changes_in_NSS_3.24
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Projects/NSS/Reference/NSS_environment_variables
(from that Bugzilla page)
> > 
> > Did you? (That's about the only patch there, that I submitted to
> > Bugzilla anywhere ;-) btw.)
> 
>   No patches required to the source code for that.
Probably that means what it meant in some of the Mozilla pages... That's
not good. Because it means the SSL-key logging is enabled by default.
Was in Firefox too. Not, it need to be at user's decision, compile time
only possible in Firefox, in optimize ebuilds, with my (minuscule) patch... But in
binary releases, it is enabled by default in Firefox...
> I do my own custom
> manual build, to eliminate the dependancy on dbus, plus other tweaks.
> That involves setting options in the mozconfig file, but no source code
> changes.  If you want to do your own build, see my post on December 9th
> https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=13898&start=20#p100625
> Note; this is version 2 of my build environment.  You should see an
> attached file "pmmain.tgz" on that post.  Do not use version 1, with
> (utils.tgz) in the first post of that thread.
You know why the no-dbus way above may be my only way of doing it? Or
for which reason I might have to give up? 

The only way, because after:

$ git clone https://github.com/deuiore/palemoon-overlay

I grep'd a log of dbus lines in that repo :-( , so Palemoon has the dbus
dependency... Firefox does not. And not only in Gentoo.

(And I don't intend to install no poetterware whatsoever --dbus being at
least a relative, or maybe better defined as the precursor, which
prepared the way for poetterware, IMO.)

And that also may prove to be the reason that I might have to give up.
Which I will only do if it shows to be too difficult for me.

I've only just downloaded:
https://forum.palemoon.org/download/file.php?id=6761
from:
https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=13898&start=20#p100625
so I don't yet know...

We'll see...
> -- 
> Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
> I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications
> 

Thanks also to Martin Vaeth for his correcting of my assumption.

Regards!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] Reading the (SSL) traffic with Pale Moon, WAS: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA? Youtube... Audio: No

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161218-19:16+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
...
> > 
> >   No patches required to the source code for that.
> Probably that means what it meant in some of the Mozilla pages... That's
> not good. Because it means the SSL-key logging is enabled by default.
And that's a security risk.
> Was in Firefox too. Not, it need to be at user's decision, compile time
> only possible in Firefox, in optimize ebuilds, with my (minuscule) patch... But in
> binary releases, it is enabled by default in Firefox...
> > I do my own custom
> > manual build, to eliminate the dependancy on dbus, plus other tweaks.
> > That involves setting options in the mozconfig file, but no source code
> > changes.  If you want to do your own build, see my post on December 9th
> > https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=13898&start=20#p100625
> > Note; this is version 2 of my build environment.  You should see an
> > attached file "pmmain.tgz" on that post.  Do not use version 1, with
> > (utils.tgz) in the first post of that thread.
> You know why the no-dbus way above may be my only way of doing it? Or
> for which reason I might have to give up? 
> 
> The only way, because after:
> 
> $ git clone https://github.com/deuiore/palemoon-overlay
> 
> I grep'd a log of dbus lines in that repo :-( , so Palemoon has the dbus
> dependency... Firefox does not. And not only in Gentoo.
> 
> (And I don't intend to install no poetterware whatsoever --dbus being at
> least a relative, or maybe better defined as the precursor, which
> prepared the way for poetterware, IMO.)

But, looking into:

palemoon-overlay/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.2.ebuild

I see:

	if ! use dbus; then
		mozconfig_disable dbus
	fi

So dbus is _not_ a requirement... So I don't understand why you
(
I had
also starting looking into pmmain , your build scripts, and the above
does the same as:

$ grep -r dbus pmmain/
pmmain/utils/mymozconfig.txt:ac_add_options --disable-dbus
$
)
[So I don't understand why you] thought dbus was needed to be disabled
by other means, than the (as yet still) unofficial repo/overlay?)

Or am I missing something?
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] Reading the (SSL) traffic with Pale Moon, WAS: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA? Youtube... Audio: No

[Walter Dnes]

On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 07:43:47PM +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote

> [So I don't understand why you] thought dbus was needed to be disabled
> by other means, than the (as yet still) unofficial repo/overlay?)
> 
> Or am I missing something?

  You are looking at the Pale Moon overlay.  I did not know about it
when I first used Pale Moon.  I originally downloaded the official
version tarball from http://linux.palemoon.org/ which needs dbus.  I
built Pale Moon from source with several changes in the mozconfig file.
I also built it with gcc 5.4.0 with additional optimization.  Gentoo
stable currently uses gcc 4.9.3.

  dbus was included in the original code from Firefox before the forking
took place for a few reasons...

* "necko-wifi" for improved geo-location, which you probably do not want.
  Since Pale Moon is separate from Firefox, they don't have a licence to
  use Google's wifi database.

* WebRTC.  I don't think it's enabled on the official version

* "WakeLock".  *IF YOU HAVE A SCREENSAVER THAT COMMUNICATES VIA DBUS*
  then Pale Moon can ask it to temporarily disable screensaving while
  you are playing a long video.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] Reading the (SSL) traffic with Pale Moon, WAS: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA? Youtube... Audio: No

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161218-15:29-0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 07:43:47PM +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote
> 
> > [So I don't understand why you] thought dbus was needed to be disabled
> > by other means, than the (as yet still) unofficial repo/overlay?)
> > 
> > Or am I missing something?
> 
>   You are looking at the Pale Moon overlay.  I did not know about it
> when I first used Pale Moon.  I originally downloaded the official
> version tarball from http://linux.palemoon.org/ which needs dbus.  I
... 

I'll look at those later, likely in the next, or some later email.

First, I installed Pale Moon, but by no means is the task over.

And not just because I had issues, i.e. couldn't log into Pale Moon forum:

SSL-key logging with Pale Moon (the current title)
http://www.croatiafidelis.hr/foss/cap/cap-161218-palemoon/
( and great if we get some insight here by seniors as to why the
apparent *fork bomb* or something happened ).

( Pls. do note that Pale Moon can SSL-key log just fine, except, it's an
old version of the nss library that Pale Moon uses, which is likely not
a good thing. )

But even more, because I only really install in my master Air-Gapped
Gentoo --link missing, because I haven't transferred my bookmarks yet...
(
No, I just installed, it's completely trivial, via GUi, takes in the the
Firefox bookmark JSON just fine...):

Air-Gapped Gentoo Install, Tentative
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-987268.html
)
link not missing--

...and I really install only what I can verify.

So, is there anywhere that I can read on the Wiki, where I can figure
out how I could git-install in completely verifiable way? Plus...

Plus: I want to be able to clone that install, from this online clone to
my master Air-Gapped installation, how?

One thing I never stop being excited about it the emerge-webrsync and
the fact that every package in Gentoo is verifiably signed by the Releng
team, and that's as safe as you can get in any distro in the world. The
best!

Now came the git install, with the git pack thing and all. May be very
safe, but how do I know it? How do I verify it?

I remember having read, either on gentoo-dev or on the wiki, or
somewhere else, that some devs do have this concern that I also voiced
here...

Any advice will be appreciated!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] Reading the (SSL) traffic with Pale Moon

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161219-12:16+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> On 161218-15:29-0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
...
> First, I installed Pale Moon, but by no means is the task over.
> 
> And not just because I had issues, i.e. couldn't log into Pale Moon forum:
> 
> SSL-key logging with Pale Moon (the current title)
> http://www.croatiafidelis.hr/foss/cap/cap-161218-palemoon/
> ( and great if we get some insight here by seniors as to why the
> apparent *fork bomb* or something happened ).
> 
> ( Pls. do note that Pale Moon can SSL-key log just fine, except, it's an
> old version of the nss library that Pale Moon uses, which is likely not
> a good thing. )
...

The NSS library that Palemoon uses (as I posted on that link above) is,
IIUC, ancient (paste from about:support):

NSS	3.19.5.0 Basic ECC	3.19.5.0 Basic ECC

See in your own portage:

# cd /usr/portage/dev-libs/nss/
# grep 'bug #' ChangeLog  | cut -d# -f2 | sed 's/)//' | sed 's/\.//' \
	| sed 's/\.//'|sort -u
564834
571086
574848
576862
585372
#

Of the above Gentoo Bugzilla bugs, only the last one (585372) is not about vulns but
about stable request ("=dev-libs/nss-3.23 stable request").

So all of these:

<dev-libs/nspr-4.10.10, <dev-libs/nss-3.20.1: use-after-poison, buffer
overflow, integer overflow (CVE-2015-{7181,7182,7183})
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=564834

(CVE-2015-7575, CVE-2016-1938) - <dev-libs/nss-3.21-r2: Weak RSA-MD5
signature allows attack on client certificate authentication (part of SLOTH
attack), miscalculations in bignum lib (CVE-2015-7575, CVE-2016-1938) 
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=571086

dev-libs/nss-3.22[utils] - multilib-minimal_abi_src_install - !!! dobin:
checkcert does not exist
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=574848

<www-client/firefox{,-bin}-{38.7.0,45.0}
<mail-client/thunderbird{,-bin}-38.7.0 <dev-libs/nss-3.22.2 : multiple
vulnerabilities (CVE-2016-{1950..1979}, CVE-2016-{2790..2802})
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=576862

[all of the above] speak of serious security risks with the then version of
NSS, and Pale Moon uses a version of the NSS that predates any patches to
those bugs. If I understand correctly.

In the meantime, I have retried to log into Pale Moon forum, same issue
shows up. And yet another time I retired. And it's consistent
behavior... Maybe because now the forum thinks I tried many times
before, which is just not the case by any means!

And for that try, I cleared the cache, and get a cast/trace pair short,
and clean event, no other, or not much other conversations, but those
with the Pale Moon Forum (and its requests, true, which are a lot of
requests...).

No addons/extensions yet (not even the eff-https-everywhere, the browser
functionalities minimized, privacy browsing set to always, though, and
I'll show that too. Ah, no tracking protection in Pale Moon, we'll see
to that...  But later I'll make page 2 with that cast/trace pair.

( And, regarding the short post by Taiidan@gmx.com
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/gentoo/user/320794#320794
also something to fake browser fingerprinting, probably start looking from:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Tor )

So what should I think of Pale Moon, regarding the SSL-key logging, but
with that ancient NSS?

Aaarggghhh!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] Reading the (SSL) traffic with Pale Moon

[Miroslav Rovis]

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I need to correct what I wrote... Things are *not* as bad as I
misunderstood...

On 161219-18:17+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
...
> ...
> 
> The NSS library that Palemoon uses (as I posted on that link above) is,
> IIUC, ancient (paste from about:support):

Nope! But see below...

> NSS	3.19.5.0 Basic ECC	3.19.5.0 Basic ECC
> 
> See in your own portage:
> 
> # cd /usr/portage/dev-libs/nss/
> # grep 'bug #' ChangeLog  | cut -d# -f2 | sed 's/)//' | sed 's/\.//' \
> 	| sed 's/\.//'|sort -u
> 564834
> 571086
> 574848
> 576862
> 585372
> #
> 
> Of the above Gentoo Bugzilla bugs, only the last one (585372) is not about vulns but
> about stable request ("=dev-libs/nss-3.23 stable request").
> 
> So all of these:
Really not!


There is talk of 3.19.2.1 and 3.19.4 ...
> <dev-libs/nspr-4.10.10, <dev-libs/nss-3.20.1: use-after-poison, buffer
> overflow, integer overflow (CVE-2015-{7181,7182,7183})
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=564834
[There is talk of 3.19.2.1 and 3.19.4]
on 2015-11-03 20:19:00 UTC here:
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=564834#c0

I don't know about this one, but probably it doesn't apply to what Pale
Moon either...
> (CVE-2015-7575, CVE-2016-1938) - <dev-libs/nss-3.21-r2: Weak RSA-MD5
> signature allows attack on client certificate authentication (part of SLOTH
> attack), miscalculations in bignum lib (CVE-2015-7575, CVE-2016-1938) 
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=571086

This bug #574848
> dev-libs/nss-3.22[utils] - multilib-minimal_abi_src_install - !!! dobin:
> checkcert does not exist
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=574848
is entirely local error within Gentoo

And there is talk of .19.2.3 ...
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=576862#c0
> <www-client/firefox{,-bin}-{38.7.0,45.0}
> <mail-client/thunderbird{,-bin}-38.7.0 <dev-libs/nss-3.22.2 : multiple
> vulnerabilities (CVE-2016-{1950..1979}, CVE-2016-{2790..2802})
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=576862
[And there is talk of .19.2.3]
on 2016-03-09 14:42:36 UTC here:
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=576862#c0
> 
...
> No addons/extensions yet (not even the eff-https-everywhere, the browser
> functionalities minimized, privacy browsing set to always, though, and
> I'll show that too. Ah, no tracking protection in Pale Moon, we'll see
> to that...  But later I'll make page 2 with that cast/trace pair.
> 
> ( And, regarding the short post by Taiidan@gmx.com
> http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/gentoo/user/320794#320794
> also something to fake browser fingerprinting, probably start looking from:
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Tor )
> 

And whether the NSS that Pale Moon uses is fine, maybe some of the devs
can tell us, I apologize for for having made too hasty and very probably
wrong conclusion in regard...

Regards!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] Reading the (SSL) traffic with Pale Moon

[Walter Dnes]

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 06:43:53PM +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote

> And whether the NSS that Pale Moon uses is fine, maybe some of the devs
> can tell us, I apologize for for having made too hasty and very probably
> wrong conclusion in regard...

  See the 2nd post in https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?t=8971

Moonchild (the lead developer)
> The moment I am given access to the MozSec bugs after each 6-week
> release, I perform a full security audit on the bugs and code
> for applicability. If a vulnerability exists in Pale Moon that is
> addressed by these bugs, it is patched in the next release, with
> chemspill releases for urgent security issues pushed out asap in a
> point release.

  There is some informal slang here that you may not understand...
* "chemspill" ==> an emergency similar in nature to a hazardous chemical
   spill, requiring immediate response
* "asap" ==> an acronym for "As Soon As Possible"

  3rd post in same thread
Matt Tobin (developer)
> One thing to keep in mind is that just because there is a vulnerability
> in a codebase doesn't mean that there always was a vulnerability. As
> most know, Mozilla has been rewriting code (refactoring) at a rabid
> pace and has actually introduced more security flaws just by
> refactoring and rewriting the code badly than were previously there
> in the older incarnation of a chunk of code.

  Short summary...
* Pale Moon is an independant fork
* Pale Moon started out with a snapshot of Firefox code
* Pale Moon has made its own set of changes
* Mozilla (Firefox) has made a different set of changes
* the two browsers' source code is different enough that a problem that
  affects Firefox may not affect Pale Moon; see...
  https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13984
* if there are real problems, there are point releases.  That's one
  reason why Pale Moon 27.0.1 and 27.0.2 and 27.0.3 have been released.
  E.g. see "Security-related and crash fixes:" in
  https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14223

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] Reading the (SSL) traffic with Pale Moon

[Miroslav Rovis]

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Thanks! I'll be studying the links that you gave!
(I just replied to your other, later mail, first, in this thread, both
the mails, and I marked both important in my Mutt.)

On 161219-18:33-0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 06:43:53PM +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote
> 
> > And whether the NSS that Pale Moon uses is fine, maybe some of the devs
> > can tell us, I apologize for for having made too hasty and very probably
> > wrong conclusion in regard...
> 
>   See the 2nd post in https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?t=8971
> 
> Moonchild (the lead developer)
> > The moment I am given access to the MozSec bugs after each 6-week
> > release, I perform a full security audit on the bugs and code
> > for applicability. If a vulnerability exists in Pale Moon that is
> > addressed by these bugs, it is patched in the next release, with
> > chemspill releases for urgent security issues pushed out asap in a
> > point release.
> 
>   There is some informal slang here that you may not understand...
> * "chemspill" ==> an emergency similar in nature to a hazardous chemical
>    spill, requiring immediate response
> * "asap" ==> an acronym for "As Soon As Possible"
> 
>   3rd post in same thread
> Matt Tobin (developer)
> > One thing to keep in mind is that just because there is a vulnerability
> > in a codebase doesn't mean that there always was a vulnerability. As
> > most know, Mozilla has been rewriting code (refactoring) at a rabid
> > pace and has actually introduced more security flaws just by
> > refactoring and rewriting the code badly than were previously there
> > in the older incarnation of a chunk of code.
> 
>   Short summary...
> * Pale Moon is an independant fork
> * Pale Moon started out with a snapshot of Firefox code
> * Pale Moon has made its own set of changes
> * Mozilla (Firefox) has made a different set of changes
> * the two browsers' source code is different enough that a problem that
>   affects Firefox may not affect Pale Moon; see...
>   https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13984
> * if there are real problems, there are point releases.  That's one
>   reason why Pale Moon 27.0.1 and 27.0.2 and 27.0.3 have been released.
>   E.g. see "Security-related and crash fixes:" in
>   https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14223
> 
> -- 
> Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
> I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications
> 

Thanks!

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] Reading the (SSL) traffic with Pale Moon, WAS: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA? Youtube... Audio: No

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161218-15:29-0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 07:43:47PM +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote
> 
> > [So I don't understand why you] thought dbus was needed to be disabled
> > by other means, than the (as yet still) unofficial repo/overlay?)
> > 
> > Or am I missing something?
> 
>   You are looking at the Pale Moon overlay.  I did not know about it
> when I first used Pale Moon.  I originally downloaded the official
> version tarball from http://linux.palemoon.org/ which needs dbus.  I
> built Pale Moon from source with several changes in the mozconfig file.
> I also built it with gcc 5.4.0 with additional optimization.  Gentoo
> stable currently uses gcc 4.9.3.
Pasting from my about:buildconfig :

Compiler 	Version 	Compiler flags
gcc 	5.4.0 	-Wall -Wdeclaration-after-statement -Wempty-body
-Wpointer-to-int-cast -Wsign-compare -Wtype-limits -Wno-unused
-Wcast-align -march=native -pipe -std=gnu99 -fgnu89-inline
-fno-strict-aliasing -fno-math-errno -pthread -pipe
>   dbus was included in the original code from Firefox before the forking
> took place for a few reasons...
I see. 
> * "necko-wifi" for improved geo-location, which you probably do not want.
>   Since Pale Moon is separate from Firefox, they don't have a licence to
>   use Google's wifi database.
> 
> * WebRTC.  I don't think it's enabled on the official version
> 
> * "WakeLock".  *IF YOU HAVE A SCREENSAVER THAT COMMUNICATES VIA DBUS*
>   then Pale Moon can ask it to temporarily disable screensaving while
>   you are playing a long video.
Those are not there in my Pale Moon (in clone-machine only yet, as I
explained in my other reply email to this message), again pasting from
my about:buildconfig :

Configure arguments
--enable-application=browser --disable-install-strip
--enable-optimize=-O2 --disable-valgrind --disable-dbus
--disable-necko-wifi --enable-gstreamer --disable-webrtc --enable-alsa
--disable-pulseaudio --enable-official-branding
--enable-default-toolkit=cairo-gtk2

> -- 
> Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
> I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications
> 
And I'm very curious to learn how to install in Air-Gapped, from git,
through intermediary action, that is acceptable, but in a verifiable
way, as I asked in my other reply email to this message.

Just in case (pasting from about:support):

Name 	Pale Moon
Version 	27.0.2
Build ID 	20161218222634
...
User Agent 	Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.9) Gecko/20100101
Goanna/3.0 Firefox/45.9 PaleMoon/27.0.2

Regards!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] Reading the (SSL) traffic with Pale Moon, WAS: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA? Youtube... Audio: No

[Walter Dnes]

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 01:25:19PM +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote

> And I'm very curious to learn how to install in Air-Gapped, from git,
> through intermediary action, that is acceptable, but in a verifiable
> way, as I asked in my other reply email to this message.

  The Pale Moon project is located at...
https://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon

  The current release branch is "27.0_Relbranch".  I'm not a programmer,
and I don't push commits back to the project.  So I don't need the full
depth and history.  The following command grabs the latest 27.0.x source
and downloads it to a directory pmsrc/ and only downloads what is needed
to do a build.

git clone -b 27.0_RelBranch --depth 1 https://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git pmsrc

  To save typing, I made a script "getcode".  I merely have to type
./getcode 27.0

  The script consists of 2 lines...

#!/bin/bash
git clone -b "${1}_RelBranch" --depth 1 https://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git pmsrc

  Note that this picks up the latest git tag.  You can force a specific
tag (e.g. 27.0.0 or 27.0.1 or 27.0.2) if you use the appropriate git
command.  Once the the pmsrc/ subdirectory is populated, you can...

cp -r pmsrc/ <usb_stick>/pmsrc/

   walk over to the air-gapped machine and...

cp -r <usb_stick>/pmsrc/ pmsrc/

   and then do a "-march=native" build on the air-gapped machine.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] Reading the (SSL) traffic with Pale Moon

[Miroslav Rovis]

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Very useful! Thanks! 

But only quick notes now.

On 161220-03:00-0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 01:25:19PM +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote
> 
> > And I'm very curious to learn how to install in Air-Gapped, from git,
> > through intermediary action, that is acceptable, but in a verifiable
> > way, as I asked in my other reply email to this message.
> 
>   The Pale Moon project is located at...
> https://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon

I see.

And one thing appears to be missing for me. *IIUC* <-- pls. note.

The tags are not verified on the Pale Moon repo above! Do you see that
they are, if you open:
https://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon/tags
?
I don't!

*IIUC* <-- pls. note.

Do you see that my tags are verified, e.g. if you open:

https://github.com/miroR/tshark-hosts-conv/tags
and by clicking on "Verified" link, you should see:

This tag was signed with a verified signature.
@miroR
miroR
Miroslav Rovis
GPG key ID: EA9884884FBAF0AE Learn about signing commits

Or am I again missing something?

And if the tags are not verified, I may do the below, but I still don't
feel right.

I'm used to webrsync-gpg which is obsolete in comparison to git, but
it's so safe, because all the the portage, including distfiles, all is
PGP verifiable!

I leave your instuctions below, since this is really useful, and it's a
possible route for me to take... But...

>   The current release branch is "27.0_Relbranch".  I'm not a programmer,
> and I don't push commits back to the project.  So I don't need the full
> depth and history.  The following command grabs the latest 27.0.x source
> and downloads it to a directory pmsrc/ and only downloads what is needed
> to do a build.
> 
> git clone -b 27.0_RelBranch --depth 1 https://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git pmsrc
> 
>   To save typing, I made a script "getcode".  I merely have to type
> ./getcode 27.0
> 
>   The script consists of 2 lines...
> 
> #!/bin/bash
> git clone -b "${1}_RelBranch" --depth 1 https://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git pmsrc
> 
>   Note that this picks up the latest git tag.  You can force a specific
> tag (e.g. 27.0.0 or 27.0.1 or 27.0.2) if you use the appropriate git
> command.  Once the the pmsrc/ subdirectory is populated, you can...
> 
> cp -r pmsrc/ <usb_stick>/pmsrc/
> 
>    walk over to the air-gapped machine and...
> 
> cp -r <usb_stick>/pmsrc/ pmsrc/
> 
>    and then do a "-march=native" build on the air-gapped machine.
> 
> -- 
> Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
> I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications
> 

... But also, the time on my hands is an issue. If the Gentoo overlay
prooves easier and quicker, I may go that other way...

And which way I go may also depend on which one I get to verifiably install...

Yes, verifiability is my sine qua non!

I have to say, I had no issues with installing from Gentoo palemoon
overlay, and I may open an issue about verification there, or in main
Pale Moon repo...

E.g. there are never even any tags at all on:

https://github.com/deuiore/palemoon-overlay/tags

If I understand correctly. <-- pls. note.

All this in the wake of my asking Gentoo devs about the verifiability in
git:

Is it safe to switch from webrsync to the git repo now?
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/gentoo/dev/320922

Really thanks a lot.
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] Reading the (SSL) traffic with Pale Moon

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161220-03:00-0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 01:25:19PM +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote
> 
> > And I'm very curious to learn how to install in Air-Gapped, from git,
> > through intermediary action, that is acceptable, but in a verifiable
> > way, as I asked in my other reply email to this message.
> 
>   The Pale Moon project is located at...
> https://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon
That is certainly also what the official overlay uses, the one listed in:
https://overlays.gentoo.org/
which has updated, as I attempted to work with your scripts. Just
pulled:

miro@g0n /Cmn/src/palemoon-overlay $ git pull
remote: Counting objects: 8, done.
remote: Total 8 (delta 6), reused 6 (delta 6), pack-reused 2
Unpacking objects: 100% (8/8), done.
From https://github.com/deuiore/palemoon-overlay
 237160b..d0b6f90  master     -> origin/master
 Updating 237160b..d0b6f90
 Fast-forward
 www-client/palemoon-bin/Manifest                   |   3 +
	 www-client/palemoon-bin/palemoon-bin-27.0.3.ebuild | 112
	 ++++++++++++++++++++++++
 www-client/palemoon/Manifest                       |   3 +-
 www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.2.ebuild         |   6 +-
 www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild         | 239
		++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 5 files changed, 359 insertions(+), 4 deletions(-)
 create mode 100644
 www-client/palemoon-bin/palemoon-bin-27.0.3.ebuild
 create mode 100644 www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild

But I spent hours studying your scripts, and their fine, but my system
is hardened, and the /usr/src/ where I put pmmain/ failed. It was that
gcc couldn't even create let alone the conftest, but not even conftest.c
was created.

And the Pale Moon that I have installed works just great (except for
logging into the forum, but that's not its fault; btw, I logged into
github, no problem...).

And the overlay looks good, and all set properly... And it's official,
more reliable than homemade.

I'll try and see next how the updating will go with the official.

... Doing it now.

The line that I use, as admin (root is not much more poweful than just a
regular user in grsecurity-hardened), ah, didn't need that, I only need
that when there are more packages, this logs the same as what you have
later in /var/log/portage/ ...:

# emerge -tuDN palemoon 2>&1 | tee emerge-tuDN_palemoon_$(date +%y%m%d_%H%M)_g0n

These are the packages that would be merged, in reverse order:

Calculating dependencies  .. . .... done!
[ebuild     U  ] www-client/palemoon-27.0.3::miro [27.0.2::miro] USE="alsa gstreamer gtk2 official-branding optimize -dbus -gtk3 -jemalloc -necko-wifi -pulseaudio -shared-js -system-libs -valgrind -webrtc" 0 KiB

Total: 1 package (1 upgrade), Size of downloads: 0 KiB

Would you like to merge these packages? [Yes/No] 
>>> Verifying ebuild manifests
>>> Running pre-merge checks for www-client/palemoon-27.0.3
 * Checking for at least 7 GiB disk space at "/var/tmp/portage/www-client/palemoon-27.0.3/temp" ...
 [ ok ]

>>> Emerging (1 of 1) www-client/palemoon-27.0.3::miro
>>> Unpacking source...
 * Fetching git://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git ...
git fetch git://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git +refs/tags/27.0.3_Release:refs/tags/27.0.3_Release
remote: Counting objects: 362, done.
...

And more than 4 threads is fine:

top - 01:03:03 up 3 days,  6:32,  9 users,  load average: 14.08, 10.22, 7.75
Tasks: 171 total,   9 running, 160 sleeping,   2 stopped,   0 zombie
%Cpu(s): 85.0 us, 11.3 sy,  3.7 ni,  0.0 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,  0.0 st
KiB Mem : 16398240 total,  1935348 free,  3362256 used, 11100636 buff/cache
KiB Swap:        0 total,        0 free,        0 used. 12842124 avail Mem 

  PID USER      PR  NI    VIRT    RES    SHR S  %CPU %MEM     TIME+ COMMAND    
15934 portage   20   0  292768 243536  15284 R  56.8  1.5   0:02.12 cc1plus    
15930 portage   20   0  352412 305772  15360 R  50.2  1.9   0:02.83 cc1plus    
15921 portage   20   0  369724 321532  15332 R  49.2  2.0   0:03.66 cc1plus    
15938 portage   20   0  200696 150028  15360 R  41.9  0.9   0:01.26 cc1plus    
31169 miro      20   0  442208  69132  20408 S  23.9  0.4   6:28.81 ffmpeg     
15942 portage   20   0  139212  90380  15064 R  16.9  0.6   0:00.51 cc1plus    
15955 portage   20   0   96876  56996  14292 R   9.6  0.3   0:00.29 cc1plus    
15952 portage   20   0   82248  46356  15008 R   9.0  0.3   0:00.27 cc1plus    
11468 miro      39  19  605396 153748  19432 R   3.7  0.9   1404:00 ffmpeg     

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

And this is my itch, verification of these:


/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src/:
total 4
drwxr-xr-x 6 portage portage 4096 2016-12-18 22:27 MoonchildProductions_Pale-Moon.git

/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src/MoonchildProductions_Pale-Moon.git:
total 32
-rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage   66 2016-12-18 22:20 config
-rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage   73 2016-12-18 22:20 description
-rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage  114 2016-12-21 00:58 FETCH_HEAD
-rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage   23 2016-12-18 22:20 HEAD
drwxr-xr-x 2 portage portage 4096 2016-12-18 22:20 hooks
drwxr-xr-x 2 portage portage 4096 2016-12-18 22:20 info
drwxr-xr-x 4 portage portage 4096 2016-12-18 22:20 objects
drwxr-xr-x 5 portage portage 4096 2016-12-18 22:24 refs

/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src/MoonchildProductions_Pale-Moon.git/hooks:
total 44
-rwxr-xr-x 1 portage portage  478 2016-12-18 22:20 applypatch-msg.sample
-rwxr-xr-x 1 portage portage  896 2016-12-18 22:20 commit-msg.sample
-rwxr-xr-x 1 portage portage  189 2016-12-18 22:20 post-update.sample
-rwxr-xr-x 1 portage portage  424 2016-12-18 22:20 pre-applypatch.sample
-rwxr-xr-x 1 portage portage 1642 2016-12-18 22:20 pre-commit.sample
-rwxr-xr-x 1 portage portage 1239 2016-12-18 22:20 prepare-commit-msg.sample
-rwxr-xr-x 1 portage portage 1348 2016-12-18 22:20 pre-push.sample
-rwxr-xr-x 1 portage portage 4951 2016-12-18 22:20 pre-rebase.sample
-rwxr-xr-x 1 portage portage  544 2016-12-18 22:20 pre-receive.sample
-rwxr-xr-x 1 portage portage 3610 2016-12-18 22:20 update.sample

/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src/MoonchildProductions_Pale-Moon.git/info:
total 4
-rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage 240 2016-12-18 22:20 exclude

/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src/MoonchildProductions_Pale-Moon.git/objects:
total 8
drwxr-xr-x 2 portage portage 4096 2016-12-18 22:20 info
drwxr-xr-x 2 portage portage 4096 2016-12-21 00:58 pack

/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src/MoonchildProductions_Pale-Moon.git/objects/info:
total 0

/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src/MoonchildProductions_Pale-Moon.git/objects/pack:
total 270812
-r--r--r-- 1 portage portage   5090828 2016-12-18 22:24 pack-a682fc2224953122b74e217a9ca3773304b49d94.idx
-r--r--r-- 1 portage portage 271104986 2016-12-18 22:24 pack-a682fc2224953122b74e217a9ca3773304b49d94.pack
-r--r--r-- 1 portage portage     14540 2016-12-21 00:57 pack-d957d5915ac5c98443a78373f3e25c5433d1dba2.idx
-r--r--r-- 1 portage portage   1090901 2016-12-21 00:57 pack-d957d5915ac5c98443a78373f3e25c5433d1dba2.pack

/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src/MoonchildProductions_Pale-Moon.git/refs:
total 12
drwxr-xr-x 3 portage portage 4096 2016-12-18 22:24 git-r3
drwxr-xr-x 2 portage portage 4096 2016-12-18 22:20 heads
drwxr-xr-x 2 portage portage 4096 2016-12-21 00:58 tags

/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src/MoonchildProductions_Pale-Moon.git/refs/git-r3:
total 4
drwxr-xr-x 3 portage portage 4096 2016-12-18 22:24 www-client

/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src/MoonchildProductions_Pale-Moon.git/refs/git-r3/www-client:
total 4
drwxr-xr-x 3 portage portage 4096 2016-12-18 22:24 palemoon

/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src/MoonchildProductions_Pale-Moon.git/refs/git-r3/www-client/palemoon:
total 4
drwxr-xr-x 2 portage portage 4096 2016-12-21 00:58 0

/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src/MoonchildProductions_Pale-Moon.git/refs/git-r3/www-client/palemoon/0:
total 8
-rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage 30 2016-12-21 00:58 __main__
-rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage 41 2016-12-21 00:58 __old__

/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src/MoonchildProductions_Pale-Moon.git/refs/heads:
total 0

/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src/MoonchildProductions_Pale-Moon.git/refs/tags:
total 180
-rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage 41 2016-12-18 22:24 24.5.1_beta4

... [cut 40 lines here] ...

-rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage 41 2016-12-18 22:24 27.0.2_Release
-rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage 41 2016-12-21 00:58 27.0.3_Release
-rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage 41 2016-12-18 22:24 GUID_working_base
-rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage 41 2016-12-18 22:24 Milestone_25

The above is pretty clearly the Pale Moon repo, because this file, just
3 lines above here:

-rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage 41 2016-12-21 00:58 27.0.3_Release

contains:

cat /usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src/MoonchildProductions_Pale-Moon.git/refs/tags/27.0.3_Release

cff1b1447aa25e27b7294bb6986e79c98ae04a03

the SHA1 hash name of the 27.0.3.

I'm half true compiling it, and the above dir is not a problem hashing
it, tar'ing it and moving it to Air-Gapped machine, the problem is
verification of every single component of the process...

Regards!

Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] Reading the (SSL) traffic with Pale Moon

[Walter Dnes]

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 01:17:18AM +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote
> 
> I'm half true compiling it, and the above dir is not a problem hashing
> it, tar'ing it and moving it to Air-Gapped machine, the problem is
> verification of every single component of the process...

  Sorry, I'm not knowledgable about the level of security that you're
looking for.  Maybe you should be asking your questions in a specialized
linux security forum.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

[gentoo-user] Re: Reading the (SSL) traffic with Pale Moon

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2016-12-20 21:30, Walter Dnes wrote:

> Sorry, I'm not knowledgable about the level of security that you're
> looking for.  Maybe you should be asking your questions in a
> specialized linux security forum.

Perhaps the tails distribution may be relevant here?

https://tails.boum.org/

-- 
Please *no* private Cc: on mailing lists and newsgroups
Personal signed mail: please _encrypt_ and sign
Don't clear-text sign: http://cr.yp.to/smtp/8bitmime.html

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Reading the (SSL) traffic with Pale Moon

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161224-09:38-0800, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> On 2016-12-20 21:30, Walter Dnes wrote:
> 
> > Sorry, I'm not knowledgable about the level of security that you're
> > looking for.  Maybe you should be asking your questions in a
> > specialized linux security forum.
> 
> Perhaps the tails distribution may be relevant here?
> 
> https://tails.boum.org/
> 

Air-Gapped install is a completely different story, pretty complemetary
to Tails' offering.

Air-Gapped is an offline peace of mind in complete quiet from the
bustling frenzy... until...

...Until, that is, you have to go online with the cloned system, then
the bustle, with all that the openness implies, returns.

And there is the need to get stuff from online into the Air-Gapped
machine... And that...

And that is what I have achieved with my Palemoon install, after
some trial and error, in the other subthread of this same topic, just I
renamed it to:

Pale Moon Air-Gapped portage EAPI 6 Install
.

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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[gentoo-user] Pale Moon Air-Gapped portage EAPI 6 Install WAS: [Logging] SSL with PM

[Miroslav Rovis]

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It took me all of my skills ;-) . But I installed Pale Moon, using my
local overlay made from the official
https://github.com/deuiore/palemoon-overlay
which installed, via my Cgit bare git repo served by my (local only yet)
Apache, and so from my local mirror, in arcane ways (which I do not
understood the how completely yet, but the install is faultless), by
serving the git packs to emerge from the local git clone'd, and
cgit-on-apache-served
https://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon
.

That's new technology. EAPI=6 in the ebuild of the above linked official
palemoon-overlay ! Nothing I've seen in my previous 7 years as Gentoo
user. Only slowly gone into production since less than two years ago now.

I'd like to provide detailed info here how the above happened to perform
so faultlessly, because I may really need to brush some details (to be
able to keep installing it from cgit-on-apache local mirror, I still
can't believe it happened ;-) ), and to ask for advice on understanding
some of the details, and because those details may be useful to other
users, in the next email.

In the next email, because I first would like to post about the goodness
of Pale Moon, about the why it is the browser to recommend and support,
and what a newbie might find still lacking its the current overlay offer
(it should move to Portage proper and become official in Gentoo
mainstream!), from what I'ver learned about Pale Moon so far.

So, this... :

On 161221-01:17+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> On 161220-03:00-0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 01:25:19PM +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote
...
> >   The Pale Moon project is located at...
> > https://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon
> That is certainly also what the official overlay uses, the one listed in:
> https://overlays.gentoo.org/
...
> Unpacking objects: 100% (8/8), done.
> From https://github.com/deuiore/palemoon-overlay
>  237160b..d0b6f90  master     -> origin/master
>  Updating 237160b..d0b6f90
>  Fast-forward
>  www-client/palemoon-bin/Manifest                   |   3 +
> 	 www-client/palemoon-bin/palemoon-bin-27.0.3.ebuild | 112
> 	 ++++++++++++++++++++++++
>  www-client/palemoon/Manifest                       |   3 +-
>  www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.2.ebuild         |   6 +-
>  www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild         | 239

                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

...[the above] is my install, but: it happened in my Air-Gapped
machine, this time.

And Palemoon perfectly logs the SSL-keys, just like its elder sibling
Firefox does, so I won't spend any more talk on that.

But I enjoy using programs when they are (or when I feel they are, of
course this may be somewhat subjective) pure, that is, true FOSS, true
Open Source GNU-compatible style, and on top when they are morally good.

The promise, for no warranted reason, of the imposition of Pulseaudio by
Mozilla, in my eyes, is a huge blemish on Firefox.

Yes, I'm afraid Firefox is morally tainted as FOSS. But there have been
other issues, and in this Gentoo Forum topic you may read more about
other issues that I haven't familiarized with:

Should firefox be removed from portage?
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1038430-start-25.html#7880354
I defended Firefox there (
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1038430-start-25.html#7878932 ) ,
and while I was right in that replacing it with something google, like
Chrom{e,ium}, is so much worse yet, and in that there were good sides to
Firefox that I posted about there, and those remain moot points for me
still, the promise of the imposition of Pulseaudio now sways my
remaining feelings away from loyalty to Mozilla

Also, read here:

Why was the default search changed to DuckDuckGo?
https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=4016

where find (just to whet your reading appetite):
> A little insight in the $300 million+/year that Mozilla makes as an
> Open Source software provider (and how income has grown more than
> expenses...)
> http://www.eweek.com/enterprise-apps/mozilla-revenue-tops-311-million-from-open-source-technology.html

(also btw, DuckDuckGo.com has been my own preferred search engine since
years now!)

Also read here:
Pale Moon, Geolocation and You
https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3658


For newbie users of Palemoon: I have had a few minor issues (e.g. the
copying and pasting from navigation bar is not polished, clipboard
selection on navigation bar can get messed up on Alt-Tab'ing, which
issue Firefox does not have), but nothing at all large!

And the addons/extensions are a problem, because seeing a potential
capable adversary in its own fork, which Palemoon is for Firefox,
Mozilla has started deliberately messing up lots of plugins so that
Palemoon could not use them!
( E.g. from this page:
http://addons.palemoon.org/incompatible/
I tried ti open link under Privacy Badger:
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/privacy-badger-firefox/versions/?page=1#version-1.0.1
but Mozilla reported a missing page. )

Pale Moon devs have been hard at work to adapt/fork the
addons/plugins/extensions:

Why do some extensions not work in Pale Moon?
https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=8740

[Downtime] and [Announcement] Project Phoebus - The Second Generation
Add-ons Site v1.0
https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=13619

, and lets give them time to do so and support
them!

( But if Pale Moon were to start over-commercializing like Firefox, and
if they were disabling things like Firefox has started doing, I wouldn't
be supported them anymore. Which I hope would not happen. )

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] Pale Moon Air-Gapped portage EAPI 6 Install WAS: [Logging] SSL with PM

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161223-05:38+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> It took me all of my skills ;-) . But I installed Pale Moon
...
> That's new technology. EAPI=6 in the ebuild
> Nothing I've seen in my previous 7 years as Gentoo
...
> I'd like to provide detailed info here how the above happened

Maybe start from the witness of the completed install.

That is, from the (witnessing) log:
/var/log/portage/www-client:palemoon-27.0.3-r6:20161221-204523.log

after having in some apparently correct way modified the ebuild in my local
overlay, and upon issuing:

# emerge palemoon

So, the log:

 * Package:    www-client/palemoon-27.0.3-r6
 * Repository: miro
 * USE:        abi_x86_64 alsa amd64 elibc_glibc gstreamer gtk2 kernel_linux official-branding optimize userland_GNU
 * FEATURES:   preserve-libs sandbox userpriv usersandbox
>>> Unpacking source...
 * Fetching http://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git ...
git fetch http://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git +refs/tags/27.0.3_Release:refs/tags/27.0.3_Release
From http://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon
 * [new tag]             27.0.3_Release -> 27.0.3_Release
 * [new tag]             24.5.1_beta4                -> 24.5.1_beta4

 ... [130 entries cut here] ...

 * [new tag]             27.0.1_Release              -> 27.0.1_Release
 * [new tag]             27.0.2_Release              -> 27.0.2_Release
 * [new tag]             GUID_working_base           -> GUID_working_base

 ... [35 entries cut here] ...

 * [new tag]             SUMOZI_25.1.0_MERGE         -> SUMOZI_25.1.0_MERGE
 * [new tag]             SUMOZI_25.2.0_MERGE         -> SUMOZI_25.2.0_MERGE
git symbolic-ref refs/git-r3/www-client/palemoon/0/__main__ refs/tags/27.0.3_Release
 * Checking out http://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git to /var/tmp/portage/www-client/palemoon-27.0.3-r6/work/palemoon-27.0.3 ...
git checkout --quiet refs/tags/27.0.3_Release
GIT NEW branch -->
   repository:               http://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git
   at the commit:            cff1b1447aa25e27b7294bb6986e79c98ae04a03
>>> Source unpacked in /var/tmp/portage/www-client/palemoon-27.0.3-r6/work
>>> Preparing source in /var/tmp/portage/www-client/palemoon-27.0.3-r6/work/palemoon-27.0.3 ...
>>> Source prepared.
>>> Configuring source in /var/tmp/portage/www-client/palemoon-27.0.3-r6/work/palemoon-27.0.3 ...
 * You are enabling official branding. You may not redistribute this build

 ... [9700 lines cut here] ...

>>> /usr/lib64/palemoon/browser/extensions/{972ce4c6-7e08-4474-a285-3208198ce6fd}/install.rdf
>>> /usr/lib64/palemoon/browser/blocklist.xml
>>> /usr/lib64/palemoon/browser/searchplugins/

 ... [5 lines cut here] ...

>>> /usr/lib64/palemoon/browser/searchplugins/duckduckgo-palemoon.xml

 ... [12 lines cut here] ...

>>> /usr/lib64/palemoon/libnssdbm3.so
>>> /usr/lib64/palemoon/components/
>>> /usr/lib64/palemoon/components/components.manifest
>>> /usr/lib64/palemoon/components/libmozgnome.so
>>> /usr/lib64/palemoon/palemoon
--- /usr/bin/
>>> /usr/bin/palemoon -> /usr/lib64/palemoon/palemoon
 * Updating desktop mime database ...
 * Updating icons cache ...
 [ ok ]
>>> www-client/palemoon-27.0.3-r6 merged.
>>> Regenerating /etc/ld.so.cache...

So the installation completed smoothly.

Now, in the /usr/portage/distfiles it looks pretty courious. Never seen
anything in my 8 years more or less daily using of Gentoo (hundreds upon
hundreds of compilations ;-) ):

The git object pack sources, guess where they are by looking up:

# du -hs /usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src\
EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=git\:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/*/

48K	/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src
EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/hooks/

8.0K	/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src
EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/info/

283M	/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src
EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/objects/

744K	/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src
EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/refs/

#

( reformatted the above output for email, but those are 5 distinct lines of
stdout only )

The successful ebuild that I modified the palemon-overlay ebuild into is:

palemoon-27.0.3-r6.ebuild

but my other previous ebuild modifications/adaptations for local cgit mirror
had all failed. Obviously all based on palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild from the
official palemoon-overlay repo.

Let me again return to the strange looks of the 
/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src\ EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=git\:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git

That above is the complete path, but here I present it more clearly (and
verbosely):

# ls -l /usr/portage/distfiles/ | grep git3-src
drwxr-xr-x 3 portage portage      4096 2016-12-21 21:19 git3-src EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:
# ls -l /usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src\ EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=git\:/
total 4
drwxr-xr-x 3 portage portage 4096 2016-12-21 21:19 localhost
# ls -l /usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src\ EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=git\:/localhost/
total 4
drwxr-xr-x 3 portage portage 4096 2016-12-21 21:19 cgi-bin
# ls -l /usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src\ EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=git\:/localhost/cgi-bin/
total 4
drwxr-xr-x 4 portage portage 4096 2016-12-21 21:24 cgit.cgi
# ls -l /usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src\ EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=git\:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/
total 8
drwxr-xr-x 6 portage portage 4096 2016-12-21 21:19 cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git
drwxr-xr-x 6 portage portage 4096 2016-12-21 21:24 MoonchildProductions_Pale-Moon.git
# ls -l /usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src\ EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=git\:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/
total 52
-rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage    66 2016-12-21 21:19 config
-rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage    73 2016-12-21 21:19 description
-rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage 22016 2016-12-21 21:45 FETCH_HEAD
-rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage    23 2016-12-21 21:19 HEAD
drwxr-xr-x 2 portage portage  4096 2016-12-21 21:19 hooks
drwxr-xr-x 2 portage portage  4096 2016-12-21 21:19 info
drwxr-xr-x 5 portage portage  4096 2016-12-21 21:45 objects
drwxr-xr-x 5 portage portage  4096 2016-12-21 21:45 refs
# du -hs /usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src\ EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=git\:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/*/
48K	/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/hooks/
8.0K	/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/info/
283M	/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/objects/
744K	/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/refs/
# 

( it's the same 5 distinct lines of stdout these in bottom, and if they don't
show well in your mail client, look them up in reformated guise further above )

So, let me remember how I got there.

Firstly, I, sure, cloned the palemoon-overlay. No I didn't use the layman for
that (I'd be using layman if I were able to verify installs like I can with
webrsync-gpg which is not feasible with git at this time, so I go
manually, and carefully check all the components to compilations), but
simply instead I 'git clone'-d it:

$ git clone https://github.com/deuiore/palemoon-overlay

I also cloned the Moonchild Productions' PaleMoon.git overlay (else how would
I install it in Air-Gapped?):

$ git clone https://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git

I followed again (it's heavily changed since some one year ago, no more
PORTDIR_OVERLAY) the guide at:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Overlay/Local_overlay

and copied over files from the just cloned palemoon-overlay, and created, what
with the copy-renamed and modified ebuilds looks like:

# ls -lR /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/
/usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/:
total 76
drwxr-xr-x 3 miro miro 4096 2016-12-18 08:40 files
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 4209 2016-12-21 21:44 Manifest
-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5907 2016-12-21 00:42 palemoon-27.0.2.ebuild
-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5907 2016-12-21 00:42 palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild
-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5956 2016-12-21 16:53 palemoon-27.0.3-r1.ebuild
... [ 4 more unsuccessful ebuilds from -r2 to -r5 here ] ...
-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5903 2016-12-21 21:44 palemoon-27.0.3-r6.ebuild

/usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/files:
total 8
-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro  329 2016-12-18 08:40 default-prefs.js-0
drwxr-xr-x 2 miro miro 4096 2016-12-18 08:40 icon

/usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/files/icon:
total 4
-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 277 2016-12-18 08:40 palemoon.desktop
#

I also needed to copy over some that you can recognize which ones by
their sizes:

# ls -l /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/[emp]*
/some-dir/palemoon-overlay/eclass:
total 8
-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 1764 2016-12-18 08:40 palemoon-0.eclass
-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro  360 2016-12-18 08:40 palemoon-bin-0.eclass

/some-dir/palemoon-overlay/metadata:
total 4
-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 17 2016-12-18 08:40 layout.conf

/some-dir/palemoon-overlay/profiles:
total 8
-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 510 2016-12-18 08:40 package.mask
-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro   9 2016-12-18 08:40 repo_name
#

# ls -l /usr/local/portage/[emp]*
/usr/local/portage/eclass:
total 4
-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 1764 2016-12-18 08:40 palemoon-0.eclass

/usr/local/portage/metadata:
total 4
-rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage 17 2015-07-08 15:54 layout.conf

/usr/local/portage/profiles:
total 8
-rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage 60 2016-11-13 21:55 categories
-rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage  5 2015-07-08 15:54 repo_name
#

( but my repo_name contains the string 'miro', not the string 'palemoon', the
string + newline, makes 5 and 9 ; I guess the most important of the
above is the palemoon-0.eclass )

What is needed in the /etc/portage/make.conf is:

EGIT3_STORE_DIR=${DISTDIR}/git3-src"
EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/"

( Note at proofreading time: true, that is still stuck in the make.conf,
and it is what was in there when the successful install happend, but
shouldn't it be http://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/ instead? )

I got those by studying over at devmanual this page:

https://devmanual.gentoo.org/eclass-reference/git-r3.eclass/index.html

and actually I also studied where there's even more, in:

/usr/portage/eclass/git-r3.eclass

( a very interesting but somewhat hard read :-( )

And here follow all the tries. Listing them all because it's simpler... I'll
just run this bash line to loop on all of them:

# for i in $(ls -1 /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/ | grep -E '3.ebuild|3-r[1-6].ebuild'); do ls -l /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/$i /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild  ; diff /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/$i /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild  ; echo "--" ; echo ; done ;

( that's just one line, in case your mail client reformated it for you,
I'm running too slow with all of this, rushing a little, sorry, except
same excuse for below )

And that command line got me these:

-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5907 2016-12-21 00:42 /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild
-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5907 2016-12-21 00:42 /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild
--

-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5907 2016-12-21 00:42 /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild
-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5956 2016-12-21 16:53 /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3-r1.ebuild
21c21
< EGIT_REPO_URI="git://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git https://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git"
---
> EGIT_REPO_URI="git://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git"
--

-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5907 2016-12-21 00:42 /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild
-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 6051 2016-12-21 17:15 /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3-r2.ebuild
21c21
< EGIT_REPO_URI="git://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git https://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git http://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git git://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git"
---
> EGIT_REPO_URI="git://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git"
--

-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5907 2016-12-21 00:42 /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild
-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5999 2016-12-21 17:25 /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3-r3.ebuild
21c21
< EGIT_REPO_URI="https://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git http://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git git://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git"
---
> EGIT_REPO_URI="git://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git"
--

-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5907 2016-12-21 00:42 /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild
-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5951 2016-12-21 21:26 /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3-r4.ebuild
21c21
< EGIT_REPO_URI="https://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git git://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git"
---
> EGIT_REPO_URI="git://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git"
--

-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5907 2016-12-21 00:42 /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild
-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5902 2016-12-21 21:29 /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3-r5.ebuild
21c21
< EGIT_REPO_URI="git://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git"
---
> EGIT_REPO_URI="git://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git"
--

-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5907 2016-12-21 00:42 /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild
-rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5903 2016-12-21 21:44 /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3-r6.ebuild
21c21
< EGIT_REPO_URI="http://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git"
---
> EGIT_REPO_URI="git://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git"
--

The: https://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git would have probably also
worked, but it was refused because the cert is both self-signed and expired
;-) .

If the reader followed carefully, she/he will have noticed that only the
last one (palemoon-27.0.3-r6.ebuild) worked, and I actually started this
email with how that ebuild installed palemoon in my Air-Gapped machine.

If I show to have forgot any details (which I tried not to), I'll post them in
another reply to this thread.

( Ah, the cgit, maybe. It's just a regular cgit install, other than I
wasn't able to get the cgit, in many months now that I use it, so that
my apache would serve git listings and tar.gz's, tar.bz2's, and zip's,
with rewritten urls to get read of the cgi-bin/cgit.cgi string in every
url...

Otherwise, it's just

$ cd /where-I-keep-my-local-and-cloned-git-repos/Pale-Moon/
git clone --bare . /where-my-apache-serves-git-from/Pale-Moon.git/

and then

# /var/www/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi \
	--scan-tree=/where-my-apache-serves-git-from/ > cgit-repos

(and append that to /etc/cgit-repos)
)

I'm actually kind of almost disbelieving that this has happened, because the
naming appears as if it worked out by some luck, so unusual it is, with the
spaces in the filenames
(
e.g. just see the:

git3-src EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:

name of the directory, first level underneath /usr/portage/distfiles/
).

It couldn't have been designed to be this kind of strange naming in the
very /usr/portage/distfiles/ , or could it?

Is this regular, or have I successfully installed by some chance?

Thanks if there will be any explanations and advice. And in the meantime, I
really enjoy using Pale Moon in my Gentoo, both master and, of course,
clone(s)!

Regards!

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] Pale Moon Air-Gapped portage EAPI 6 Install WAS: [Logging] SSL with PM

[Daniel Campbell]

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On 12/23/2016 08:58 AM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> On 161223-05:38+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
>> It took me all of my skills ;-) . But I installed Pale Moon
> ...
>> That's new technology. EAPI=6 in the ebuild
>> Nothing I've seen in my previous 7 years as Gentoo
> ...
>> I'd like to provide detailed info here how the above happened
> 
> Maybe start from the witness of the completed install.
> 
> That is, from the (witnessing) log:
> /var/log/portage/www-client:palemoon-27.0.3-r6:20161221-204523.log
> 
> after having in some apparently correct way modified the ebuild in my local
> overlay, and upon issuing:
> 
> # emerge palemoon
> 
> So, the log:
> 
>  * Package:    www-client/palemoon-27.0.3-r6
>  * Repository: miro
>  * USE:        abi_x86_64 alsa amd64 elibc_glibc gstreamer gtk2 kernel_linux official-branding optimize userland_GNU
>  * FEATURES:   preserve-libs sandbox userpriv usersandbox
>>>> Unpacking source...
>  * Fetching http://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git ...
> git fetch http://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git +refs/tags/27.0.3_Release:refs/tags/27.0.3_Release
> From http://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon
>  * [new tag]             27.0.3_Release -> 27.0.3_Release
>  * [new tag]             24.5.1_beta4                -> 24.5.1_beta4
> 
>  ... [130 entries cut here] ...
> 
>  * [new tag]             27.0.1_Release              -> 27.0.1_Release
>  * [new tag]             27.0.2_Release              -> 27.0.2_Release
>  * [new tag]             GUID_working_base           -> GUID_working_base
> 
>  ... [35 entries cut here] ...
> 
>  * [new tag]             SUMOZI_25.1.0_MERGE         -> SUMOZI_25.1.0_MERGE
>  * [new tag]             SUMOZI_25.2.0_MERGE         -> SUMOZI_25.2.0_MERGE
> git symbolic-ref refs/git-r3/www-client/palemoon/0/__main__ refs/tags/27.0.3_Release
>  * Checking out http://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git to /var/tmp/portage/www-client/palemoon-27.0.3-r6/work/palemoon-27.0.3 ...
> git checkout --quiet refs/tags/27.0.3_Release
> GIT NEW branch -->
>    repository:               http://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git
>    at the commit:            cff1b1447aa25e27b7294bb6986e79c98ae04a03
>>>> Source unpacked in /var/tmp/portage/www-client/palemoon-27.0.3-r6/work
>>>> Preparing source in /var/tmp/portage/www-client/palemoon-27.0.3-r6/work/palemoon-27.0.3 ...
>>>> Source prepared.
>>>> Configuring source in /var/tmp/portage/www-client/palemoon-27.0.3-r6/work/palemoon-27.0.3 ...
>  * You are enabling official branding. You may not redistribute this build
> 
>  ... [9700 lines cut here] ...
> 
>>>> /usr/lib64/palemoon/browser/extensions/{972ce4c6-7e08-4474-a285-3208198ce6fd}/install.rdf
>>>> /usr/lib64/palemoon/browser/blocklist.xml
>>>> /usr/lib64/palemoon/browser/searchplugins/
> 
>  ... [5 lines cut here] ...
> 
>>>> /usr/lib64/palemoon/browser/searchplugins/duckduckgo-palemoon.xml
> 
>  ... [12 lines cut here] ...
> 
>>>> /usr/lib64/palemoon/libnssdbm3.so
>>>> /usr/lib64/palemoon/components/
>>>> /usr/lib64/palemoon/components/components.manifest
>>>> /usr/lib64/palemoon/components/libmozgnome.so
>>>> /usr/lib64/palemoon/palemoon
> --- /usr/bin/
>>>> /usr/bin/palemoon -> /usr/lib64/palemoon/palemoon
>  * Updating desktop mime database ...
>  * Updating icons cache ...
>  [ ok ]
>>>> www-client/palemoon-27.0.3-r6 merged.
>>>> Regenerating /etc/ld.so.cache...
> 
> So the installation completed smoothly.
> 
> Now, in the /usr/portage/distfiles it looks pretty courious. Never seen
> anything in my 8 years more or less daily using of Gentoo (hundreds upon
> hundreds of compilations ;-) ):
> 
> The git object pack sources, guess where they are by looking up:
> 
> # du -hs /usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src\
> EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=git\:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/*/
> 
> 48K	/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src
> EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/hooks/
> 
> 8.0K	/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src
> EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/info/
> 
> 283M	/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src
> EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/objects/
> 
> 744K	/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src
> EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/refs/
> 
> #
> 
> ( reformatted the above output for email, but those are 5 distinct lines of
> stdout only )
> 
> The successful ebuild that I modified the palemon-overlay ebuild into is:
> 
> palemoon-27.0.3-r6.ebuild
> 
> but my other previous ebuild modifications/adaptations for local cgit mirror
> had all failed. Obviously all based on palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild from the
> official palemoon-overlay repo.
> 
> Let me again return to the strange looks of the 
> /usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src\ EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=git\:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git
> 
> That above is the complete path, but here I present it more clearly (and
> verbosely):
> 
> # ls -l /usr/portage/distfiles/ | grep git3-src
> drwxr-xr-x 3 portage portage      4096 2016-12-21 21:19 git3-src EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:
> # ls -l /usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src\ EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=git\:/
> total 4
> drwxr-xr-x 3 portage portage 4096 2016-12-21 21:19 localhost
> # ls -l /usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src\ EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=git\:/localhost/
> total 4
> drwxr-xr-x 3 portage portage 4096 2016-12-21 21:19 cgi-bin
> # ls -l /usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src\ EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=git\:/localhost/cgi-bin/
> total 4
> drwxr-xr-x 4 portage portage 4096 2016-12-21 21:24 cgit.cgi
> # ls -l /usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src\ EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=git\:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/
> total 8
> drwxr-xr-x 6 portage portage 4096 2016-12-21 21:19 cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git
> drwxr-xr-x 6 portage portage 4096 2016-12-21 21:24 MoonchildProductions_Pale-Moon.git
> # ls -l /usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src\ EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=git\:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/
> total 52
> -rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage    66 2016-12-21 21:19 config
> -rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage    73 2016-12-21 21:19 description
> -rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage 22016 2016-12-21 21:45 FETCH_HEAD
> -rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage    23 2016-12-21 21:19 HEAD
> drwxr-xr-x 2 portage portage  4096 2016-12-21 21:19 hooks
> drwxr-xr-x 2 portage portage  4096 2016-12-21 21:19 info
> drwxr-xr-x 5 portage portage  4096 2016-12-21 21:45 objects
> drwxr-xr-x 5 portage portage  4096 2016-12-21 21:45 refs
> # du -hs /usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src\ EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=git\:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/*/
> 48K	/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/hooks/
> 8.0K	/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/info/
> 283M	/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/objects/
> 744K	/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/refs/
> # 
> 
> ( it's the same 5 distinct lines of stdout these in bottom, and if they don't
> show well in your mail client, look them up in reformated guise further above )
> 
> So, let me remember how I got there.
> 
> Firstly, I, sure, cloned the palemoon-overlay. No I didn't use the layman for
> that (I'd be using layman if I were able to verify installs like I can with
> webrsync-gpg which is not feasible with git at this time, so I go
> manually, and carefully check all the components to compilations), but
> simply instead I 'git clone'-d it:
> 
> $ git clone https://github.com/deuiore/palemoon-overlay
> 
> I also cloned the Moonchild Productions' PaleMoon.git overlay (else how would
> I install it in Air-Gapped?):
> 
> $ git clone https://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git
> 
> I followed again (it's heavily changed since some one year ago, no more
> PORTDIR_OVERLAY) the guide at:
> 
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Overlay/Local_overlay
> 
> and copied over files from the just cloned palemoon-overlay, and created, what
> with the copy-renamed and modified ebuilds looks like:
> 
> # ls -lR /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/
> /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/:
> total 76
> drwxr-xr-x 3 miro miro 4096 2016-12-18 08:40 files
> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 4209 2016-12-21 21:44 Manifest
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5907 2016-12-21 00:42 palemoon-27.0.2.ebuild
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5907 2016-12-21 00:42 palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5956 2016-12-21 16:53 palemoon-27.0.3-r1.ebuild
> ... [ 4 more unsuccessful ebuilds from -r2 to -r5 here ] ...
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5903 2016-12-21 21:44 palemoon-27.0.3-r6.ebuild
> 
> /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/files:
> total 8
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro  329 2016-12-18 08:40 default-prefs.js-0
> drwxr-xr-x 2 miro miro 4096 2016-12-18 08:40 icon
> 
> /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/files/icon:
> total 4
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 277 2016-12-18 08:40 palemoon.desktop
> #
> 
> I also needed to copy over some that you can recognize which ones by
> their sizes:
> 
> # ls -l /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/[emp]*
> /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/eclass:
> total 8
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 1764 2016-12-18 08:40 palemoon-0.eclass
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro  360 2016-12-18 08:40 palemoon-bin-0.eclass
> 
> /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/metadata:
> total 4
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 17 2016-12-18 08:40 layout.conf
> 
> /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/profiles:
> total 8
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 510 2016-12-18 08:40 package.mask
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro   9 2016-12-18 08:40 repo_name
> #
> 
> # ls -l /usr/local/portage/[emp]*
> /usr/local/portage/eclass:
> total 4
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 1764 2016-12-18 08:40 palemoon-0.eclass
> 
> /usr/local/portage/metadata:
> total 4
> -rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage 17 2015-07-08 15:54 layout.conf
> 
> /usr/local/portage/profiles:
> total 8
> -rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage 60 2016-11-13 21:55 categories
> -rw-r--r-- 1 portage portage  5 2015-07-08 15:54 repo_name
> #
> 
> ( but my repo_name contains the string 'miro', not the string 'palemoon', the
> string + newline, makes 5 and 9 ; I guess the most important of the
> above is the palemoon-0.eclass )
> 
> What is needed in the /etc/portage/make.conf is:
> 
> EGIT3_STORE_DIR=${DISTDIR}/git3-src"
> EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/"
> 
> ( Note at proofreading time: true, that is still stuck in the make.conf,
> and it is what was in there when the successful install happend, but
> shouldn't it be http://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/ instead? )
> 
> I got those by studying over at devmanual this page:
> 
> https://devmanual.gentoo.org/eclass-reference/git-r3.eclass/index.html
> 
> and actually I also studied where there's even more, in:
> 
> /usr/portage/eclass/git-r3.eclass
> 
> ( a very interesting but somewhat hard read :-( )
> 
> And here follow all the tries. Listing them all because it's simpler... I'll
> just run this bash line to loop on all of them:
> 
> # for i in $(ls -1 /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/ | grep -E '3.ebuild|3-r[1-6].ebuild'); do ls -l /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/$i /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild  ; diff /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/$i /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild  ; echo "--" ; echo ; done ;
> 
> ( that's just one line, in case your mail client reformated it for you,
> I'm running too slow with all of this, rushing a little, sorry, except
> same excuse for below )
> 
> And that command line got me these:
> 
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5907 2016-12-21 00:42 /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5907 2016-12-21 00:42 /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild
> --
> 
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5907 2016-12-21 00:42 /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5956 2016-12-21 16:53 /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3-r1.ebuild
> 21c21
> < EGIT_REPO_URI="git://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git https://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git"
> ---
>> EGIT_REPO_URI="git://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git"
> --
> 
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5907 2016-12-21 00:42 /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 6051 2016-12-21 17:15 /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3-r2.ebuild
> 21c21
> < EGIT_REPO_URI="git://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git https://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git http://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git git://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git"
> ---
>> EGIT_REPO_URI="git://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git"
> --
> 
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5907 2016-12-21 00:42 /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5999 2016-12-21 17:25 /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3-r3.ebuild
> 21c21
> < EGIT_REPO_URI="https://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git http://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git git://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git"
> ---
>> EGIT_REPO_URI="git://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git"
> --
> 
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5907 2016-12-21 00:42 /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5951 2016-12-21 21:26 /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3-r4.ebuild
> 21c21
> < EGIT_REPO_URI="https://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git git://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git"
> ---
>> EGIT_REPO_URI="git://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git"
> --
> 
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5907 2016-12-21 00:42 /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5902 2016-12-21 21:29 /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3-r5.ebuild
> 21c21
> < EGIT_REPO_URI="git://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git"
> ---
>> EGIT_REPO_URI="git://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git"
> --
> 
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5907 2016-12-21 00:42 /some-dir/palemoon-overlay/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3.ebuild
> -rw-r--r-- 1 miro miro 5903 2016-12-21 21:44 /usr/local/portage/www-client/palemoon/palemoon-27.0.3-r6.ebuild
> 21c21
> < EGIT_REPO_URI="http://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git"
> ---
>> EGIT_REPO_URI="git://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git"
> --
> 
> The: https://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/Pale-Moon.git would have probably also
> worked, but it was refused because the cert is both self-signed and expired
> ;-) .
> 
> If the reader followed carefully, she/he will have noticed that only the
> last one (palemoon-27.0.3-r6.ebuild) worked, and I actually started this
> email with how that ebuild installed palemoon in my Air-Gapped machine.
> 
> If I show to have forgot any details (which I tried not to), I'll post them in
> another reply to this thread.
> 
> ( Ah, the cgit, maybe. It's just a regular cgit install, other than I
> wasn't able to get the cgit, in many months now that I use it, so that
> my apache would serve git listings and tar.gz's, tar.bz2's, and zip's,
> with rewritten urls to get read of the cgi-bin/cgit.cgi string in every
> url...
> 
> Otherwise, it's just
> 
> $ cd /where-I-keep-my-local-and-cloned-git-repos/Pale-Moon/
> git clone --bare . /where-my-apache-serves-git-from/Pale-Moon.git/
> 
> and then
> 
> # /var/www/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi \
> 	--scan-tree=/where-my-apache-serves-git-from/ > cgit-repos
> 
> (and append that to /etc/cgit-repos)
> )
> 
> I'm actually kind of almost disbelieving that this has happened, because the
> naming appears as if it worked out by some luck, so unusual it is, with the
> spaces in the filenames
> (
> e.g. just see the:
> 
> git3-src EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:
> 
> name of the directory, first level underneath /usr/portage/distfiles/
> ).
> 
> It couldn't have been designed to be this kind of strange naming in the
> very /usr/portage/distfiles/ , or could it?
> 
> Is this regular, or have I successfully installed by some chance?
> 
> Thanks if there will be any explanations and advice. And in the meantime, I
> really enjoy using Pale Moon in my Gentoo, both master and, of course,
> clone(s)!
> 
> Regards!
> 

Could you be a bit more concise? I'm not sure what exactly you're asking
about. A simple question or two might be enough to better explain your
problem.

-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6


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Re: [gentoo-user] Pale Moon Air-Gapped portage EAPI 6 Install WAS: [Logging] SSL with PM

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161223-23:29-0800, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> On 12/23/2016 08:58 AM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
...
> > 
> > Thanks if there will be any explanations and advice. And in the meantime, I
> > really enjoy using Pale Moon in my Gentoo, both master and, of course,
> > clone(s)!
> > 
> > Regards!
> > 
> 
> Could you be a bit more concise? I'm not sure what exactly you're asking
> about. A simple question or two might be enough to better explain your
> problem.
It doesn't look easy to me to do it.

With palemoon Gentoo overlay cloned, and Pale-Moon sources cloned, and
the sources git served by cgit installed on apache, I managed to install
Palemoon successfully.

But it's strange, because it installed in /usr/portage/distfiles with
strange directory names in the structure. Most prominently strange
being:

git3-src EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:

(that's the name of the dir first level under /usr/portage/distfiles,
but there are more underneath)

Is that expected behavior with EAPI=6 in the ebuild, or is it a
successful installation just by some stroke of luck?

Note: the installed palemoon (but we're in the cloned system, another
system of same hardware as the Air-Gapped system where I installed...),
which I'm browsing online with, works faultlessly, as if I had installed
it regularly with layman and emerge while being online.

For any more detail, pls. look in the very detailed account of the
entire installation in my previous email which I took several hours to
write to my best ability.

> -- 
> Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
> OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
> fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6
> 

Thank you for your kind consideration!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] Pale Moon Air-Gapped portage EAPI 6 Install WAS: [Logging] SSL with PM

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161223-17:58+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> On 161223-05:38+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> > It took me all of my skills ;-) . But I installed Pale Moon
> ...
> > That's new technology. EAPI=6 in the ebuild
> > Nothing I've seen in my previous 7 years as Gentoo
...
> 
> The git object pack sources, guess where they are by looking up:
> 
> # du -hs /usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src\
> EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=git\:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/*/
> 
> 48K	/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src
> EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/hooks/
> 
> 8.0K	/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src
> EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/info/
> 
> 283M	/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src
> EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/objects/
> 
> 744K	/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src
> EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/refs/
> 
> #
> 
> ( reformatted the above output for email, but those are 5 distinct lines of
> stdout only )
> 
...
> 
> What is needed in the /etc/portage/make.conf is:
> 
> EGIT3_STORE_DIR=${DISTDIR}/git3-src"
> EGIT_MIRROR_URI=git://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/"
> 
> ( Note at proofreading time: true, that is still stuck in the make.conf,
> and it is what was in there when the successful install happend, but
> shouldn't it be http://localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/ instead? )

I tried changing that (and updated, the Air-Gapped way, to

www-client/palemoon-27.0.3-r7

(which is my local bump of 
www-client/palemoon-27.0.3-r1 from unofficial)

, and the only difference is that now, the top dir
in /usr/portage/distfiles/ looks:

# ls -l /usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src\ EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=http\:/
total 4
drwxr-xr-x 3 portage portage 4096 2017-01-10 02:54 localhost
# 

while previously was:

EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=git\:/

instead of what is now:

EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=http\:/

The rest is all the same.

But, again, Palemoon works just fine. And my wonder about it still
remains. But it works, and seems a reliable method.

Just thought to make clear on this. This email should appear in reply to
where I explained it as really the best I could.

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] Pale Moon Air-Gapped portage EAPI 6 Install WAS: [Logging] SSL with PM

[Miroslav Rovis]

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It still looks awkward directory names like below:

On 170111-06:50+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> On 161223-17:58+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> > On 161223-05:38+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
...
> ...
> > 
> > The git object pack sources, guess where they are by looking up:
> > 
> > # du -hs /usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src\
> > EGIT_MIRROR_URI\=git\:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git/*/
> > 
...

And this is fresh, current:

( not a quote, but a paste from a terminal, the second line below )
# ls -ABgo \
> "/usr/portage/distfiles/git3-src EGIT_MIRROR_URI=http:/localhost/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/"
total 12
drwxr-xr-x 6 4096 2017-02-19 00:17 cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_gnurl.git
drwxr-xr-x 6 4096 2017-02-13 23:54 cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git
drwxr-xr-x 6 4096 2017-02-18 22:53 gnurl.git
#

The gnurl.git, the last, is empty. It is empty because I wasn't online, and I
wasn't because I don't want to just be online and trust what happens
when I install packages while being open... And so it couldn't pull from
online git's.

But the other two:

cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_gnurl.git
cgi-bin_cgit.cgi_Pale-Moon.git

have done their work. From my Apache-served Cgit.

Gnurl I have installed in this awkward-directory-names way just very
early this morning (more about what I needed it for further below), and
Pale-Moon I have installed back when I made this pull request:

https://github.com/deuiore/palemoon-overlay/pull/34

This method works! (If I had time, I'd query with the cgit devs and
remove the cgi-bin_cgit.cgi string from my Apache served Cgit (it's
actually http://<my-mirror>/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/<...>) , but hey,
it works, so it's not urgent.)

In other words, some (not all, YMMV) of my pull request is anyway, via
Air-Gapped or via total-online install, applicable for anybody who wants
to _test_ Pale Moon in Gentoo!

Just thought to let you people know.

As far as Pale Moon, you get the bleeding edge this way.

And, yes, in comparison to its parent which it forked from, the big
business Firefox, Pale Moon is an Angel of Honesty! And I don't have
many issues with Pale Moon, at all! Esp. not surveillance issues like
with Firefox!

And about Gnurl and what I needed it for. I needed it for Gnunet.
Aaahhh.. What is that, some may ask (that's how this great idea is
little known in some circles)? See here:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Overlay_Talk:Youbroketheinternet 
http://youbroketheinternet.org/#overlay
https://gnunet.org/node/2634 (
but the author is a renegade Gentoo developer, maybe that's why it is
not well known, see here for more:
https://secure-os.org/pipermail/desktops/2017-February/000171.html
)

But I need to make another thread about Subversion server that I need to
set up, because gnunet is svn-served...

Regards!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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[gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Martin Vaeth]

Miroslav Rovis <miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> wrote:
> Martin Vaeth, I think he works with the ebuilds of Pale moon

No, I don't. I had just reported a few bugs (and suggested
some workarounds).

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Walter Dnes]

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 02:16:27PM -0500, Rich Freeman wrote
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Miroslav Rovis <miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> wrote:
>
> > It's been discussed over and over again. Lots of people are firm in
> > their understanding that Lennart is an actor by and for the big
> > business. Me too.
> 
> Well, he is a Red Hat employee.  Nobody really debates that.

  Maybe it's not intentional spyware malice, but rather that home users
are being jerked around while Redhat re-writes linux as a corporate OS.

  So systemd gets your machine running 2 to 5 seconds faster?  So what,
you say.  But Redhat is into cloud stuff...
https://www.redhat.com/en/technologies/cloud-computing and they have to
quickly meet spikes in demand by clients, and there are service-level
agreements with financial penalties if they don't.  There are 2 ways to
do that...

1) Have a lot of VM's and/or dockers idling in the background sucking up
cpu and ram and electricity, to meet sudden spikes in demand.

2) Have fewer VM's and/or dockers idling in the background sucking up
cpu and ram and electricity, but be able to spin up new instances more
quickly.

  Having just a few developers at Redhat is not enough to maintain
systemd, so they push systemd everywhere via their connections, so that
many open source users and dvelopers participate in testing and
maintaining systemd.

  Systemd does all sorts of management that isn't really required by the
regular home user, but Redhat doesn't give a hoot about their experience
being made more difficult.  Redhat only cares about their paying
customers.

  Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.  Now the name
varies in each machine depending on the motherboard layout; oogabooga11?
foobar42?  It may be static, but you don't know what it'll be, without
first booting the machine.  In a truly Orwellian twist, this "feature"
is referred to as "Predictable" Network Interface Names.  It only makes
things easier for corporate machines acting as gateways/routers, with
multiple ports.  Again, the average home user is being jerked around for
a corporate agenda.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 00:55:21 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:

> > Well, he is a Red Hat employee.  Nobody really debates that.  
> 
>   Maybe it's not intentional spyware malice, but rather that home users
> are being jerked around while Redhat re-writes linux as a corporate OS.
> 
>   Systemd does all sorts of management that isn't really required by the
> regular home user, but Redhat doesn't give a hoot about their experience
> being made more difficult.  Redhat only cares about their paying
> customers.

Any non-trivial, off the shelf software does more than you need it to,
it's the only way to be sure it does not do less than you need it to. I'd
rather a program have ten features I don't need than be missing one that
I do.

>   Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.  Now the name
> varies in each machine depending on the motherboard layout; oogabooga11?
> foobar42?  It may be static, but you don't know what it'll be, without
> first booting the machine.  In a truly Orwellian twist, this "feature"
> is referred to as "Predictable" Network Interface Names.  It only makes
> things easier for corporate machines acting as gateways/routers, with
> multiple ports.

It wouldn't be so bad if they had provided an easy way to revert to the
old behaviour like maybe a boot option or touching a file in /etc :(

> Again, the average home user is being jerked around for
> a corporate agenda.

Yes, it is disgusting that developers add the options desired by those
that pay their wages while completely ignoring the users that give them
nothing! It's almost like they are scratching their employer's itch while
ignoring yours.

Really, no one is forcing you to use anything. If you don't like the way
particular piece of software is going, you can get a full refund and
switch to something else.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

If ignorance is bliss, you must be orgasmic.

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Daniel Campbell]

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On 12/17/2016 12:53 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 00:55:21 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> 
>>> Well, he is a Red Hat employee.  Nobody really debates that.  
>>
>>   Maybe it's not intentional spyware malice, but rather that home users
>> are being jerked around while Redhat re-writes linux as a corporate OS.
>>
>>   Systemd does all sorts of management that isn't really required by the
>> regular home user, but Redhat doesn't give a hoot about their experience
>> being made more difficult.  Redhat only cares about their paying
>> customers.
> 
> Any non-trivial, off the shelf software does more than you need it to,
> it's the only way to be sure it does not do less than you need it to. I'd
> rather a program have ten features I don't need than be missing one that
> I do.
> 
>>   Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
>> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.  Now the name
>> varies in each machine depending on the motherboard layout; oogabooga11?
>> foobar42?  It may be static, but you don't know what it'll be, without
>> first booting the machine.  In a truly Orwellian twist, this "feature"
>> is referred to as "Predictable" Network Interface Names.  It only makes
>> things easier for corporate machines acting as gateways/routers, with
>> multiple ports.
> 
> It wouldn't be so bad if they had provided an easy way to revert to the
> old behaviour like maybe a boot option or touching a file in /etc :(
> 
>> Again, the average home user is being jerked around for
>> a corporate agenda.
> 
> Yes, it is disgusting that developers add the options desired by those
> that pay their wages while completely ignoring the users that give them
> nothing! It's almost like they are scratching their employer's itch while
> ignoring yours.
> 
> Really, no one is forcing you to use anything. If you don't like the way
> particular piece of software is going, you can get a full refund and
> switch to something else.
> 
> 
That argument doesn't really offer anything of substance in return.
Yeah, "just use something else", until whatever entity has completely
owned the platform. What then? Switch platforms ad nauseum? At some
point, you need to take some sort of action. Talking about it is a good
start. It helps formulate and refine ideas that can turn into real,
tangible action. Usually it just ends in a fork; though there's nothing
wrong with that. It's a feature, not a bug.

I get where you're coming from, but Walter's talking about a real
concern when it comes to libre software and corporate involvement. The
profit motive has the potential to devastate community-oriented
operations, be they libre software, swimming pools, common areas,
municipal Internet, or even housing efforts. That potential for damage
should be baked into any community-based operation's decision-making
process. Sometimes a partnership can be great (like getting hosting from
a reseller for a rebate in return for some consulting or mentoring on
the side), sometimes it's bad (losing license to a given piece of
software because you wanted to improve or correct it (Linus and
BitKeeper, for the uninitiated)))

Just consider the source of all the 'innovations' coming down the pike,
and ask yourself why they wrote that software. I think that's solid
advice no matter what your opinion of corporations is.
-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6


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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:36:21 -0800, Daniel Campbell wrote:

> > Really, no one is forcing you to use anything. If you don't like the
> > way particular piece of software is going, you can get a full refund
> > and switch to something else.

> That argument doesn't really offer anything of substance in return.
> Yeah, "just use something else", until whatever entity has completely
> owned the platform. What then? Switch platforms ad nauseum?

We're not really talking about platforms. It's not like this is being
baked into the kernel.

> At some
> point, you need to take some sort of action. Talking about it is a good
> start. It helps formulate and refine ideas that can turn into real,
> tangible action. Usually it just ends in a fork; though there's nothing
> wrong with that. It's a feature, not a bug.

Taking action is good, but too many of these threads are just people
blowing off steam and result in nothing useful.

> I get where you're coming from, but Walter's talking about a real
> concern when it comes to libre software and corporate involvement. The
> profit motive has the potential to devastate community-oriented
> operations, be they libre software, swimming pools, common areas,
> municipal Internet, or even housing efforts. That potential for damage
> should be baked into any community-based operation's decision-making
> process. Sometimes a partnership can be great (like getting hosting from
> a reseller for a rebate in return for some consulting or mentoring on
> the side),

As long as the software remains libre, which is usually ensured by the
GPL, there is no requirement for the community to follow the direction of
the corporates. But it takes someone to do something tangible about it,
not just complain on a mailing list that I doubt any of the Red Hat
management read. Adding in personal accusations and insults (not that
Walter did such but other in this thread have) only serves to further
dilute any effectiveness it may have had.

> sometimes it's bad (losing license to a given piece of
> software because you wanted to improve or correct it (Linus and
> BitKeeper, for the uninitiated)))

That's a very good example, because Linus did just the right thing and
created an acceptable alternative.
 
> Just consider the source of all the 'innovations' coming down the pike,
> and ask yourself why they wrote that software. I think that's solid
> advice no matter what your opinion of corporations is.

Indeed.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I'm firm. You're obstinate. He's a pigheaded fool.

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 4:36 AM, Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 12/17/2016 12:53 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 00:55:21 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
>>>
>>> Again, the average home user is being jerked around for
>>> a corporate agenda.
>>
>> Yes, it is disgusting that developers add the options desired by those
>> that pay their wages while completely ignoring the users that give them
>> nothing! It's almost like they are scratching their employer's itch while
>> ignoring yours.
>
> I get where you're coming from, but Walter's talking about a real
> concern when it comes to libre software and corporate involvement. The
> profit motive has the potential to devastate community-oriented
> operations, be they libre software, swimming pools, common areas,
> municipal Internet, or even housing efforts. That potential for damage
> should be baked into any community-based operation's decision-making
> process.

Greg KH has (IIRC) made the argument that it's the involvement of
corporations that has helped Linux grow exponentially, unlike the
BSDs. (IIRC, he attributed their involvement to the GPL, but that's a
different topic.)

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Daniel Campbell]

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On 12/17/2016 11:45 PM, Tom H wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 4:36 AM, Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> On 12/17/2016 12:53 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>>> On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 00:55:21 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Again, the average home user is being jerked around for
>>>> a corporate agenda.
>>>
>>> Yes, it is disgusting that developers add the options desired by those
>>> that pay their wages while completely ignoring the users that give them
>>> nothing! It's almost like they are scratching their employer's itch while
>>> ignoring yours.
>>
>> I get where you're coming from, but Walter's talking about a real
>> concern when it comes to libre software and corporate involvement. The
>> profit motive has the potential to devastate community-oriented
>> operations, be they libre software, swimming pools, common areas,
>> municipal Internet, or even housing efforts. That potential for damage
>> should be baked into any community-based operation's decision-making
>> process.
> 
> Greg KH has (IIRC) made the argument that it's the involvement of
> corporations that has helped Linux grow exponentially, unlike the
> BSDs. (IIRC, he attributed their involvement to the GPL, but that's a
> different topic.)
> 

The licensing absolutely had the attention of companies. A kernel, free
of cost? And oh snap, the OS that started the free software movement --
these two projects aren't likely to change a whole lot in their
licensing or approach. They're _the_ foundation of a system, so
naturally if a business intends to build something, they'll want to
build on the lowest, most stable level.

Thankfully the kernel seems to have sane management; as long as Linus is
around, anyway. Just recently AMD had some of their code rejected, so
with a vigilant-enough team, you can effectively protect your project
from monied interests (be it poor code or an attempt to manipulate). Now
picture what might have happened if AMD was employing Linus or had some
other sort of contract. (For the record, I use an AMD CPU and like it;
they just happened to be the most recent corporation who's rejected code
popped on my radar. No bias intended.)

Growth comes from multiple things: quality, interest, cost, and
extensibility. The kernel definitely has the last one; modules are a
staple now. Maybe they weren't when it was first released. Quality has
naturally improved over time, but I think that's the most variable part,
since quality means different things to different people. Linux being
extensible coupled with a permissive license allowed companies to fix
bugs themselves and, if the code is good enough, spread their fixes to
everyone else. Other companies may see that, and either take part in
contributing code (for notoriety), or use it in-house to reduce costs
and improve whatever metrics like uptime or what-have-you. A community
then builds.

None of those actors have to be corporate, money-seeking entities in
order for growth to occur. Corporate involvement may have *accelerated*
Linux's growth, but it had quality of design and code going for it, so
growth was inevitable as it filled a huge niche at the time and
continued to do so until the BSDs opened up and GNU Hurd was released.
By that point, most heavy development was already on Linux, and the risk
of switching to another OS/kernel -- after contributing code to Linux --
would be a hard sell to a company. BSD of course garnered a decent
portion of the networking world and found its own niche, but Linux had a
lot going for it early on that helped spike its growth, separate from
*who* that growth came from.
-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6


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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 3:23 AM, Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> Thankfully the kernel seems to have sane management; as long as Linus is
> around, anyway. Just recently AMD had some of their code rejected, so
> with a vigilant-enough team, you can effectively protect your project
> from monied interests (be it poor code or an attempt to manipulate). Now
> picture what might have happened if AMD was employing Linus or had some
> other sort of contract. (For the record, I use an AMD CPU and like it;
> they just happened to be the most recent corporation who's rejected code
> popped on my radar. No bias intended.)
>

I think this is an oversimplification of the issues involved in the
AMD situation, which as with so many of these things people just
jumped on picking sides.  And I think what has gotten lost is an issue
that actually comes up somewhat often in FOSS.

Let's step back and look at the reality in the gaming on Linux domain:
there are basically two GPU manufacturers in the game (AMD/NVidia),
and neither one has their best GPU drivers in the mainline kernel.
Both of them contribute to drivers which ARE merged into the kernel,
but in both cases these lack features found in the out-of-mainline
module.

AMD has been attempting to merge their better driver into the mainline
kernel.  As far as I'm aware (I could be wrong) Nvidia hasn't really
tried to do this for the most part and are content to just keep
shipping a blob.  AMD's reasons are certainly at least somewhat
selfish, as maintaining all that code out-of-tree is expensive since
linux doesn't have a stable API for drivers.

Ok, AMD wants to add a more capable driver to the kernel, and
obviously Linux users would prefer a more capable driver in the
kernel, so what is the problem?

And this is where we come to an issue that happens from time to time
in FOSS: the needs of the kernel maintainers are not aligned with the
needs of the AMD driver maintainers.

The AMD and NVidia out-of-mainline drivers both use an abstraction
layer to map the kernel APIs to an internal set of APIs used by the
driver, because their drivers are multi-platform.  I'm not sure
exactly how their internal APIs work in both cases.  They might
internally target the Windows APIs, or they might even target a
virtual API and use a translation layer on every platform.  This
allows them to use one set of code for their core logic across all
platforms, at the cost of overhead on Linux (and possibly on other
platforms as well).  On most platforms this is no big deal because the
APIs on those platforms are stable.  On Linux this is not the case,
and the maintainers prefer to have the freedom to modify their
internal APIs and not maintain their own translation layers for
backwards compatibility.

IMO both sides are basically "right" in their designs, because they
have different priorities.

The AMD driver code isn't "poor code" - it just isn't natively written
for Linux and so it has a lot of code that is theoretically
unnecessary (in a world where all devices run Linux).  And that is of
course more code for the Linux maintainers to deal with if they accept
the driver into mainline.  On the other hand, writing a driver that
purely targets Linux means having to change the core part of the
driver anytime the Linux APIs change, which then means changing the
translation layers on every OTHER platform out there, when those
platforms otherwise feature stable APIs, or having a 3-layer solution
(Linux to single virtual API to various stable platform APIs).

Now, if the Linux maintainers wanted to have a stable API but wanted
to refactor their code internally, then you could actually have a
multiple-layer situation as well.  You could have Linux internal APIs
to Linux stable API to AMD virtual API translation going on (which I
suspect is what happens on Windows).  As far as I'm aware Microsoft
doesn't care if vendors use translation layers, because they don't
touch those modules other than testing them (which they get paid to do
anyway).

Both sides of this debate can legitimately cite maintainability as a
reason to not give in.  The Linux guys don't to have to maintain a
de-facto stable API (which is what the translation layer turns into).
The AMD (and NVidia) guys don't want to write a different driver on
every platform.  Keep in mind that besides Windows and Linux, they may
have multiple test harnesses that they need to map into their drivers,
and probably other OSes as well.  There is also a huge benefit to
having the same bug list on every platform for the most part.  And
Linux users benefit when the "Optimized for <AAA title here>" work
done for Windows automatically hits Linux as well, which gives the
publisher more incentive to spend the extra few bucks to release a
Linux version of the game.

So, saying that this is about moneyed interests trying to somehow
corrupt the "purity" of FOSS isn't really right here.  Ultimately
issues like this become a bit of a tragedy for all.  And mind you, I'm
not trying to say that the Linux maintainers should ignore their own
interests and just merge the code.  If one side was right and the
other was wrong it wouldn't be the problem that it is.

And stuff like this is what leads to this thread.  Did the Firefox
maintainers HAVE to require Pulseaudio?  Of course not.  Are they
going to be bothered to not require it for the sake of the 0.1% of
Linux users who want to use a web browser but don't have Pulseaudio
running?  Probably not.  The universe of Linux systems that are
running Firefox but not Pulseaudio is fairly small at this point.
From their standpoint requiring it costs them nothing and makes their
life a tiny bit easier.

I'd love to live in a world where all the code that everybody wants
exists for free and any subset of it is interoperable with any other
subset of it.  However, that just isn't going to happen because all
the necessary translation layers needed to make that happen are a pain
to maintain.  And so in a sense the same reasons that drove the Linux
maintainers to reject the AMD code are the same sorts of reasons that
are going to drive the Firefox maintainers to reject any patches that
let their software work without Pulseaudio, which brings us full
circle...  :)

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> writes:

> The universe of Linux systems that are running Firefox but not
> Pulseaudio is fairly small at this point.

Pulseaudio eats away about 10% CPU without any benefit whatsoever, not
to mention that it makes things more complex and less reliable.  Why
would anyone use it?

Developers might try to make their lifes easier by developing software
to the point where nobody wants to use it, except for the few developers
perhaps.  With firefox, a policy like that contradicts their claims.


This is another issue which comes up quite often with FOSS.  Developers
claim to be doing something in the interest of their users and are
asking for support.  When you take a closer look, you find that they
don't, and when you offer support, they do not want it.

Why can't they just say that they are making software for themselves the
way they want it and don't care about what anyone else says or wants?
It only gives reason to distrust someone when you find that they do not
do what they claim to be doing.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Dutch Ingraham]

On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 05:47:39PM +0100, lee wrote:
> Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> writes:

> Why can't they just say that they are making software for themselves the
> way they want it and don't care about what anyone else says or wants?

Openbsd and Archlinux will (do) say exectly that.  If that attitude
suits you, you will be right at home there.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Dutch Ingraham <stoa@gmx.us> writes:

> On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 05:47:39PM +0100, lee wrote:
>> Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> writes:
>
>> Why can't they just say that they are making software for themselves the
>> way they want it and don't care about what anyone else says or wants?
>
> Openbsd and Archlinux will (do) say exectly that.  If that attitude
> suits you, you will be right at home there.

I'd prefer such a more honest attitude.  That doesn't mean I'd be "right
at home there".

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Alan McKinnon]

On 18/12/2016 18:47, lee wrote:
> Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> writes:
> 
>> The universe of Linux systems that are running Firefox but not
>> Pulseaudio is fairly small at this point.
> 
> Pulseaudio eats away about 10% CPU without any benefit whatsoever, not
> to mention that it makes things more complex and less reliable.  Why
> would anyone use it?
> 
> Developers might try to make their lifes easier by developing software
> to the point where nobody wants to use it, except for the few developers
> perhaps.  With firefox, a policy like that contradicts their claims.
> 
> 
> This is another issue which comes up quite often with FOSS.  Developers
> claim to be doing something in the interest of their users and are
> asking for support.  When you take a closer look, you find that they
> don't, and when you offer support, they do not want it.
> 
> Why can't they just say that they are making software for themselves the
> way they want it and don't care about what anyone else says or wants?
> It only gives reason to distrust someone when you find that they do not
> do what they claim to be doing.
> 

I think you are over-simplifying the situation here. Step back and look
at the problem from the angle of "it's a bunch of people doing stuff"
and not from a tech-centric angle. It's a people problem.

You could make a valid case that the Mozilla devs are outright lying -
they said they want xvy, and your offer to help provide xyz was
rejected. But is it really that simple? I think it's more a case of the
devs would like contributions for xyz and they don't mention the
"everyone knows" "hidden assumption" of environment abc and general
method def. Ahhhh, that's the usual tripping point.

I don't know the specifics of your particular case, but my first
approximation guess is that there's an abc and def in there which the
devs didn't think to mention. Happens all the time, usually with
stunningly obvious stuff that "everyone" thought "everyone else" knew
about. Things like future roadmaps, planned features, and the individual
personal preferences of each dev.

I guess I'll saying don't be too quick to shoot from the hip - more
looking less assuming is often the better path.


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> writes:

> On 18/12/2016 18:47, lee wrote:
>> Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> writes:
>> 
>>> The universe of Linux systems that are running Firefox but not
>>> Pulseaudio is fairly small at this point.
>> 
>> Pulseaudio eats away about 10% CPU without any benefit whatsoever, not
>> to mention that it makes things more complex and less reliable.  Why
>> would anyone use it?
>> 
>> Developers might try to make their lifes easier by developing software
>> to the point where nobody wants to use it, except for the few developers
>> perhaps.  With firefox, a policy like that contradicts their claims.
>> 
>> 
>> This is another issue which comes up quite often with FOSS.  Developers
>> claim to be doing something in the interest of their users and are
>> asking for support.  When you take a closer look, you find that they
>> don't, and when you offer support, they do not want it.
>> 
>> Why can't they just say that they are making software for themselves the
>> way they want it and don't care about what anyone else says or wants?
>> It only gives reason to distrust someone when you find that they do not
>> do what they claim to be doing.
>> 
>
> I think you are over-simplifying the situation here. Step back and look
> at the problem from the angle of "it's a bunch of people doing stuff"
> and not from a tech-centric angle. It's a people problem.
>
> You could make a valid case that the Mozilla devs are outright lying -
> they said they want xvy, and your offer to help provide xyz was
> rejected. But is it really that simple? I think it's more a case of the
> devs would like contributions for xyz and they don't mention the
> "everyone knows" "hidden assumption" of environment abc and general
> method def. Ahhhh, that's the usual tripping point.
>
> I don't know the specifics of your particular case, but my first
> approximation guess is that there's an abc and def in there which the
> devs didn't think to mention. Happens all the time, usually with
> stunningly obvious stuff that "everyone" thought "everyone else" knew
> about. Things like future roadmaps, planned features, and the individual
> personal preferences of each dev.
>
> I guess I'll saying don't be too quick to shoot from the hip - more
> looking less assuming is often the better path.

It really is that simple because it is the way it turns out.  It doesn't
matter /why/ it turns out that way.

There is no assuming involved, and I have no reason to try to figure out
what hidden agenda a bunch of developers might have, or to make
assumptions about one.  It won't change anything.

That doesn't keep me from noticing that what is being said is very
different from what is being done.  If the bunch of people wants to
change that, /they/ need to do so.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Alan McKinnon]

On 18/12/2016 23:34, lee wrote:
> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> On 18/12/2016 18:47, lee wrote:
>>> Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> The universe of Linux systems that are running Firefox but not
>>>> Pulseaudio is fairly small at this point.
>>>
>>> Pulseaudio eats away about 10% CPU without any benefit whatsoever, not
>>> to mention that it makes things more complex and less reliable.  Why
>>> would anyone use it?
>>>
>>> Developers might try to make their lifes easier by developing software
>>> to the point where nobody wants to use it, except for the few developers
>>> perhaps.  With firefox, a policy like that contradicts their claims.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is another issue which comes up quite often with FOSS.  Developers
>>> claim to be doing something in the interest of their users and are
>>> asking for support.  When you take a closer look, you find that they
>>> don't, and when you offer support, they do not want it.
>>>
>>> Why can't they just say that they are making software for themselves the
>>> way they want it and don't care about what anyone else says or wants?
>>> It only gives reason to distrust someone when you find that they do not
>>> do what they claim to be doing.
>>>
>>
>> I think you are over-simplifying the situation here. Step back and look
>> at the problem from the angle of "it's a bunch of people doing stuff"
>> and not from a tech-centric angle. It's a people problem.
>>
>> You could make a valid case that the Mozilla devs are outright lying -
>> they said they want xvy, and your offer to help provide xyz was
>> rejected. But is it really that simple? I think it's more a case of the
>> devs would like contributions for xyz and they don't mention the
>> "everyone knows" "hidden assumption" of environment abc and general
>> method def. Ahhhh, that's the usual tripping point.
>>
>> I don't know the specifics of your particular case, but my first
>> approximation guess is that there's an abc and def in there which the
>> devs didn't think to mention. Happens all the time, usually with
>> stunningly obvious stuff that "everyone" thought "everyone else" knew
>> about. Things like future roadmaps, planned features, and the individual
>> personal preferences of each dev.
>>
>> I guess I'll saying don't be too quick to shoot from the hip - more
>> looking less assuming is often the better path.
> 
> It really is that simple because it is the way it turns out.  It doesn't
> matter /why/ it turns out that way.
> 
> There is no assuming involved, and I have no reason to try to figure out
> what hidden agenda a bunch of developers might have, or to make
> assumptions about one.  It won't change anything.
> 
> That doesn't keep me from noticing that what is being said is very
> different from what is being done.  If the bunch of people wants to
> change that, /they/ need to do so.
> 


I recommend you brush up on your social skills.

Figuring out what people really mean as opposed to what they say
(because those 2 never map exactly) is a very useful skill to cultivate,
things are seldom as they appear to your eyes.



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> writes:

>> That doesn't keep me from noticing that what is being said is very
>> different from what is being done.  If the bunch of people wants to
>> change that, /they/ need to do so.
>> 
>
>
> I recommend you brush up on your social skills.
>
> Figuring out what people really mean as opposed to what they say
> (because those 2 never map exactly) is a very useful skill to cultivate,
> things are seldom as they appear to your eyes.

No problem, I already figured it out.  That still doesn't mean anyone
else could solve their problem for them.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Daniel Campbell]

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On 12/18/2016 07:16 AM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 3:23 AM, Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>
>> Thankfully the kernel seems to have sane management; as long as Linus is
>> around, anyway. Just recently AMD had some of their code rejected, so
>> with a vigilant-enough team, you can effectively protect your project
>> from monied interests (be it poor code or an attempt to manipulate). Now
>> picture what might have happened if AMD was employing Linus or had some
>> other sort of contract. (For the record, I use an AMD CPU and like it;
>> they just happened to be the most recent corporation who's rejected code
>> popped on my radar. No bias intended.)
>>
> 
> I think this is an oversimplification of the issues involved in the
> AMD situation, which as with so many of these things people just
> jumped on picking sides.  And I think what has gotten lost is an issue
> that actually comes up somewhat often in FOSS.
> 
> [snip]
> 

Thanks for sharing more details about what happened, but those details
were irrelevant to the point I was making. I focused on the fact it was
rejected, despite being corporate code. The reasoning, in this
conversation, isn't important. It was an example of a project (the
kernel) that focuses more on quality than on the economic origin of the
code. That's it, no subtext.
-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6


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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 17.12.2016 um 09:53 schrieb Neil Bothwick:
> On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 00:55:21 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> 
> Really, no one is forcing you to use anything. If you don't like the way
> particular piece of software is going, you can get a full refund and
> switch to something else.

Not this argument again. It's the most stupid argument (of a lot of
other stupid ones) which was give most frequently by Poettering and
those Poettering fanboys from the beginning of this systemd crap until -
seemingly - now.

And yes, it is still crap. Unfortunately I am forced to using it,
because there is no usable distro for the Raspberry Pi which does not
use systemd. I again went into trouble with it, if it's only those
crappy binary log files. It's of course not only the binary log files.

For some reason I couldn't boot the Pi anymore. What do you usually do
in such a case? Right! You pull the sd card out of the Pi, mount it on
another computer, and... bang! No log files can't be read, because they
are binary and my Gentoo PC doesn't have systemd - for good reasons.

Without this systemd crap, with the good old, very well tested system
loggers I would have easily been able to read the the log files and to
fix the problem.

Thanks systemd I had to reinstall the whole distro.

Regarding this really stupid decision of Mozilla's to only support
PulseAudio...

PulseAudio still doesn't work with (semi-)professional audio cards. It
never did, Poettering closed the corresponding bug report, blamed the
ALSA developers and claimed that their ALSA has a bug. ALSA supported
those audio cards perfectly out of the box long way before. The bug
report was reopened and I never heard anything of it anymore. I was
subscribed to this bug report.

Instead Poettering then eventually said that PulseAudio was designed
only for consumer sound cards, not for professional audio cards.

This was years ago and nothing has changed since then.

It's audio cards like M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 and RME Hammerfall I'm
talking about, btw.

So ditching native ALSA support would mean that users with such an audio
card wouldn't be able to hear any sound within Firefox.

Thanks to Lennart Poettering and their fanboys.

Just forgot to ask. Tell me how to easily get rid of systemd on - say -
Arch Linux, Debian, OpenSUSE, Redhat, Fedora, Ubuntu and its
derivatives. And how do I get rid of systemd on my Raspberry Pi?

You said no one is forcing me to use this systemd crap. So tell me how I
get a full refund for systemd and how to switch to something usable.

You said it's possible and easily done and I'm not forced to using it.
So show me. A nice little howto for the distros I mentioned would be nice.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 13:35:54 +0100, Heiko Baums wrote:

> Am 17.12.2016 um 09:53 schrieb Neil Bothwick:
> > On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 00:55:21 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> > 
> > Really, no one is forcing you to use anything. If you don't like the
> > way particular piece of software is going, you can get a full refund
> > and switch to something else.  
> 
> Not this argument again. It's the most stupid argument (of a lot of
> other stupid ones) which was give most frequently by Poettering and
> those Poettering fanboys from the beginning of this systemd crap until -
> seemingly - now.

So you don't have a choice?
 
> And yes, it is still crap. Unfortunately I am forced to using it,
> because there is no usable distro for the Raspberry Pi which does not
> use systemd. I again went into trouble with it, if it's only those
> crappy binary log files. It's of course not only the binary log files.

I'm running the Debian 7 version of Raspbian on a number of Pis, all
without systemd. Yes, I am happy using systemd, but I can't be arsed
changing them when they continue to work perfectly well.
 
> For some reason I couldn't boot the Pi anymore. What do you usually do
> in such a case? Right! You pull the sd card out of the Pi, mount it on
> another computer, and... bang! No log files can't be read, because they
> are binary and my Gentoo PC doesn't have systemd - for good reasons.

Boot from a live CD, like Ubuntu, and read the journals. There's always
a solution that doesn't involve flaming.
 
> Without this systemd crap, with the good old, very well tested system
> loggers I would have easily been able to read the the log files and to
> fix the problem.

When I first tried systemd, I wasn't confident of my ability to work
with the journal, so I installed syslog-ng and had traditional log files
alongside the journal. In fact I ran it like that for quite some because
the log monitor I was using didn't work with the journal.
 
> Regarding this really stupid decision of Mozilla's to only support
> PulseAudio...

> PulseAudio still doesn't work with (semi-)professional audio cards. It
> never did,

I don't use Firefox or semi-professional audio hardware, so I won't
comment on this.

> Just forgot to ask. Tell me how to easily get rid of systemd on - say -
> Arch Linux, Debian, OpenSUSE, Redhat, Fedora, Ubuntu and its
> derivatives. And how do I get rid of systemd on my Raspberry Pi?

With Debian, and Raspbian, just use version 7. It's Debian so it will be
supported for years to come. Or you could run Gentoo on your Pi.

> You said no one is forcing me to use this systemd crap.

They're not. You are assuming you have to use it because you don't see an
alternative.

> So tell me how I
> get a full refund for systemd and how to switch to something usable.

I've answered the latter, your refund is attached :)
 
> You said it's possible and easily done and I'm not forced to using it.

I never said it was easy.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I am McCoy of Bo...Damnit! I'm a doctor, not a collective!

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 17.12.2016 um 14:17 schrieb Neil Bothwick:

> I'm running the Debian 7 version of Raspbian on a number of Pis, all
> without systemd. Yes, I am happy using systemd, but I can't be arsed
> changing them when they continue to work perfectly well.

Then explain me how this is done. Btw., Debian's and Raspbian's software
repositories are somewhat outdated. But that's a different Debian
related subject.

> Boot from a live CD, like Ubuntu, and read the journals. There's always
> a solution that doesn't involve flaming.

Why would I boot from a Live CD if I have a PC with an installed OS
particularly just to be able to read some simple log files?

So, no that's not a reasonable solution.

And that doesn't have anything to do with flaming. But that's typical
for those Poettering fanboys, too, since the beginning. They ask for
"technical" arguments. If "technical" arguments are given to them, then
those arguments suddenly are no technical arguments. Then this is
flaming. And Poettering and his fanboys just insult their critics, even
in the official "technical" systemd documentation.

I see, nothing has changed so far.

> When I first tried systemd, I wasn't confident of my ability to work
> with the journal, so I installed syslog-ng and had traditional log files
> alongside the journal. In fact I ran it like that for quite some because
> the log monitor I was using didn't work with the journal.

Yes, that's the solution. Install an old very well tested and useful
system logger which does the job perfectly on its own alongside of a
crappy system logger just to be able to read the binary log files again
with simple system tools which come along with EVERY distro like cat,
less, grep etc. And running two programs which have the same purpose in
the background don't need more system resources then just running one of
them, particularly on hardware like the Pi?

Did you and the other Poettering fanboys think about this logic? I guess
not.

> I don't use Firefox or semi-professional audio hardware, so I won't
> comment on this.

But that's the original subject of this thread. And PulseAudio is one of
Poettering's crap.

> With Debian, and Raspbian, just use version 7. It's Debian so it will be
> supported for years to come. Or you could run Gentoo on your Pi.

How do I compile Gentoo on the Pi? Even compiling it with distcc on
another computer would be a lot more power consuming. What's one of the
benefits of the Pi? Power-saving?

> They're not. You are assuming you have to use it because you don't see an
> alternative.

I know a lot of good alternatives to systemd. But I don't see a way to
get rid of systemd in favor of the good alternatives in the distros I
mentioned.

>> So tell me how I
>> get a full refund for systemd and how to switch to something usable.
> 
> I've answered the latter, your refund is attached :)

No, you didn't. But I guess you can't. Same again. The Poettering
fanboys deny that they are forcing their crap onto the users but can't
or don't want to say how to get rid of this crap and how to convert
their systems to something that is working well.

The solution can't be to just install a totally outdated version of a
distro from times before they started forcing systemd onto their users.
This has to be possible with recent versions, too.

So tell me, how to get rid of systemd on Arch Linux, Debian, Raspbian,
XBian, Ubuntu, Fedora etc. in their most recent releases.

Where do I get this Debian or Raspbian 7? I guess the software for those
outdated distro versions are even more outdated than the software for
the latest releases.

> I never said it was easy.

Should be easy.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 9:35 AM, Heiko Baums <lists@baums-on-web.de> wrote:
> Am 17.12.2016 um 14:17 schrieb Neil Bothwick:
>
>>> So tell me how I
>>> get a full refund for systemd and how to switch to something usable.
>>
>> I've answered the latter, your refund is attached :)
>
> No, you didn't.

Well, how much did you pay for systemd, and who did you pay it to?

And as far as how to switch to something usable goes, the last time I
checked sysvinit was still open source.

>
> The solution can't be to just install a totally outdated version of a
> distro from times before they started forcing systemd onto their users.
> This has to be possible with recent versions, too.
>
> So tell me, how to get rid of systemd on Arch Linux, Debian, Raspbian,
> XBian, Ubuntu, Fedora etc. in their most recent releases.
>

Are you willing to:
1. Do the work yourself?
or
2. Pay somebody else to do the work for you?

This really comes across as whining because a bunch of volunteers
decided to volunteer their time building things the way they would
prefer to build it, instead of the way you preferred that they build
it.

If you don't like the options out there, then make your own.

If you don't think the guides on how to install Gentoo on a Pi are
good enough, then play around with it until you figure it out, and
then post an article on the Wiki.

Look around Gentoo, or Arch, or Debian.  Everything you see is the
result of somebody sacrificing their time to create something and make
it free for everybody.  If something seems to be missing, it is
because somebody didn't sacrifice their time to create it.  If you
care strongly about something, then at some point you need to get your
hands dirty and create the future you want to see.

Complaining on a mailing list isn't going to motivate somebody to help you.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 17.12.2016 um 15:58 schrieb Rich Freeman:
> Well, how much did you pay for systemd, and who did you pay it to?

And there it is. The second most stupid and second most frequently
argument of those Poettering fanboys.

You don't expect an answer to this, do you?

> And as far as how to switch to something usable goes, the last time I
> checked sysvinit was still open source.

And what? Systemd is open source, too, but is a pain in the ass.

>> So tell me, how to get rid of systemd on Arch Linux, Debian, Raspbian,
>> XBian, Ubuntu, Fedora etc. in their most recent releases.
>>
> 
> Are you willing to:
> 1. Do the work yourself?

What is that supposed to mean? I just asked you to tell me how to get
rid of systemd on those distros. If you explain it to me, I of course do
it myself.

> 2. Pay somebody else to do the work for you?

And there it is again this stupid argument.

> This really comes across as whining because a bunch of volunteers
> decided to volunteer their time building things the way they would
> prefer to build it, instead of the way you preferred that they build
> it.

And the next of those stupid arguments of those Poettering fanboys if
they are running out of "technical" arguments. But aren't the Poettering
fanboys regularly asking for "technical" arguments? Then xhy don't you
give such silly answers instead of "technical" one? And why do just
explain to me how to get rid of systemd on recent distros? A links would
probably do it, too.

> If you don't like the options out there, then make your own.

And the next silly argument which always comes from these Poettering
fanboys. As if everybody is a programmer, and as if everybody who uses a
computer and/or Linux has to be a programmer.

Still no "technical" argument. Don't you Poettering fanboys always ask
for "technical" arguments? Why again such a silly non-technical argument?

> If you don't think the guides on how to install Gentoo on a Pi are
> good enough, then play around with it until you figure it out, and
> then post an article on the Wiki.

Didn't you read my e-mail? I don't want to have Gentoo on my Pi, because
this would destroy the advantage of the Pi, its low power consumption.

Well, maybe I will install Gentoo on the Pi once, just for fun, but
that's not the question here.

I didn't ask for a howto for installing Gentoo on a Pi, I asked for a
howto for getting rid of systemd on recent versions of Arch Linux,
Debian, Raspbian, Ubuntu, Fedora etc. You said it's possible and I'm not
forced to use systemd, so I guess you know how and can explain it to me.

Btw., would have cost you not more time than writing those silly answers
that every Poettering fanboy regularly gives since the beginning.

Still nothing has changed so far.

> Look around Gentoo, or Arch, or Debian.  Everything you see is the
> result of somebody sacrificing their time to create something and make
> it free for everybody.  If something seems to be missing, it is
> because somebody didn't sacrifice their time to create it.  If you
> care strongly about something, then at some point you need to get your
> hands dirty and create the future you want to see.

Those stereotypical silly answers of the Poettering fanboys have been
boring from the beginning and still are boring.

I just asked you a simple question, about something you volunteered
information about.

You volunteered saying that it is possible to switch from systemd to
another system and that nobody is forcing anybody to using systemd.

I just asked you how I can do this. And you? You seemingly can only give
those silly, stereotypical, non-technical answers which have absolutely
nothing to do with my question and your first statement.

That's typical for those Poettering fanboys. Still nothing new.

> Complaining on a mailing list isn't going to motivate somebody to help you.

Now I'm complaining? Just twist my words so that it fits to your needs.

There's still the question: How do I get rid of systemd on the mentioned
distros? You said it is possible.

Maybe I will get an answer someday. Honestly, I believe not.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 1:20 PM, Heiko Baums <lists@baums-on-web.de> wrote:
>
> And the next silly argument which always comes from these Poettering
> fanboys. As if everybody is a programmer, and as if everybody who uses a
> computer and/or Linux has to be a programmer.
>

Well, beggars can't be choosers.  That's just life.  If you want
somebody else to solve your problems for you, and you have nothing to
offer in trade, then you probably should at least try being nice.

Yeah, I get that it is frustrating when nobody else wants to do it
your way.  It happens to all of us.  You'll get further in life if you
learn to work within these constraints than if you merely yell at
people when it happens.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Marc Joliet]

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On Saturday 17 December 2016 19:20:03 Heiko Baums wrote:
> Am 17.12.2016 um 15:58 schrieb Rich Freeman:
[...]
> > If you don't think the guides on how to install Gentoo on a Pi are
> > good enough, then play around with it until you figure it out, and
> > then post an article on the Wiki.
> 
> Didn't you read my e-mail? I don't want to have Gentoo on my Pi, because
> this would destroy the advantage of the Pi, its low power consumption.
> 
> Well, maybe I will install Gentoo on the Pi once, just for fun, but
> that's not the question here.

Looks like somebody hasn't heard of cross-compiling!  Perhaps check out sys-
devel/crossdev and/or ask on the gentoo-embedded mailing list.  In fact, in 
this particular case I *will* provide you with a link:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi_Cross_building

> I didn't ask for a howto for installing Gentoo on a Pi, I asked for a
> howto for getting rid of systemd on recent versions of Arch Linux,
> Debian, Raspbian, Ubuntu, Fedora etc. You said it's possible and I'm not
> forced to use systemd, so I guess you know how and can explain it to me.

Aha, so it's not enough that there are distros *right now* that let you avoid 
systemd (e.g., Gentoo, Funtoo, Devuan, Knoppix), it has to be one of *those 
particular* distros.

[...]

Viele Grüße
-- 
Marc Joliet
--
"People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who know we
don't" - Bjarne Stroustrup

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 17.12.2016 um 22:57 schrieb Marc Joliet:
> Looks like somebody hasn't heard of cross-compiling!  Perhaps check out sys-
> devel/crossdev and/or ask on the gentoo-embedded mailing list.  In fact, in 
> this particular case I *will* provide you with a link:
> 
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi_Cross_building

Thanks, but I already know this link. Nevertheless, compiling everything
is quit power consuming and takes a lot of time. And you need another
computer for this to be done.

That said, generally speaking I love Gentoo, but I'm still not sure if I
really want it on my Pi. Maybe I'll reconsider this once.

> Aha, so it's not enough that there are distros *right now* that let you avoid 
> systemd (e.g., Gentoo, Funtoo, Devuan, Knoppix), it has to be one of *those 
> particular* distros.

You forgot Slackware.

No that's not enough, because at least Gentoo and Funtoo are not for
beginners. Well, I'm not a beginner, but I would like to have a distro
without systemd which can be used by beginners. Well, maybe Devuan will
be such a distro.

There's another reason. In my opinion there should always be a choice,
not only between the distros but between the software. And different
distros follow different goals.

And there's always this silly argument by these Poettering fanboys, that
they don't force systemd onto anybody, and that's always possible to
switch from systemd to another init system. Then this must be possible
under - at least - almost every distro.

As you can see, even the Poettering fanboys here refuse to explain how
this can be done. Obviously they don't admit that they are proven wrong
by this.

Btw., I hope that the Devuan people once will make a release for the Pi,
too.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Andrej Rode]

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> And there's always this silly argument by these Poettering fanboys, that
> they don't force systemd onto anybody, and that's always possible to
> switch from systemd to another init system. Then this must be possible
> under - at least - almost every distro.

For sure it is possible for a distro to ship with different init system.
The thing is the maintainers would have to jump through hoops to support
all init systems and keep the init scripts and all the distro specific
handling up to date.

And for now most distribution maintainers decided that it is not worth
the hassle.

For reference did you try to write an init script for a piece of
software in SysVInit, systemd and OpenRC to be able to compare them?

Cheers,
Andrej


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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 18.12.2016 um 00:23 schrieb Andrej Rode:
> For reference did you try to write an init script for a piece of
> software in SysVInit, systemd and OpenRC to be able to compare them?

Yes, at least I had to read a lot of them. And init scripts are really a
lot easier to write and read than such a systemd service file,
particularly you can separate the configuration to another file while
you need to copy the whole service file to another place in which it
won't be updated by the package manager if a new version would be released.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 00:36:15 +0100, Heiko Baums wrote:

> > For reference did you try to write an init script for a piece of
> > software in SysVInit, systemd and OpenRC to be able to compare them?  
> 
> Yes, at least I had to read a lot of them. And init scripts are really a
> lot easier to write and read than such a systemd service file,
> particularly you can separate the configuration to another file while
> you need to copy the whole service file to another place in which it
> won't be updated by the package manager if a new version would be
> released.

No you don't.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who
think.(Horace Walpole)

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 19.12.2016 um 10:37 schrieb Neil Bothwick:
> No you don't.

You know what I did or did not? Interesting!

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 19 Dec 2016 23:34:56 +0100, Heiko Baums wrote:

> You know what I did or did not? Interesting!

You can make any post say whatever you want by taking it out of context.

You made a statement about systemd, I pointed out that it was incorrect.
Others have since made the same point about the same statement.

If you want t criticise a piece of software , by all means do so. If you
want t be taken seriously, criticise it on its merits after checking your
facts. Then criticise the software, not those who chose to use it.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

TEXAS VIRUS: Makes sure that it's bigger than any other file.

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Marc Joliet]

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On Sunday 18 December 2016 00:36:15 Heiko Baums wrote:
> Am 18.12.2016 um 00:23 schrieb Andrej Rode:
> > For reference did you try to write an init script for a piece of
> > software in SysVInit, systemd and OpenRC to be able to compare them?
> 
> Yes, at least I had to read a lot of them. And init scripts are really a
> lot easier to write and read than such a systemd service file,

Personally, I find OpenRC scripts and systemd unit files comparable, at least 
in my limited experience with writing OpenRC init scripts.  When people 
compare systemd unit files to init scripts, they usually mean *raw* (LSB?) 
sysvinit scripts (as IIUC Debian use{s,d}), with all of their ridiculous 
amounts of boilerplate.  OpenRC-style scripts, if done the modern, declarative 
way (which I have), are also fairly easy to read and write.  But then you're 
almost writing them like systemd units: mostly setting a bunch of variables 
that say *what* you want, not *how* you want it (you know, declarative), see 
openrc-run(8).

(Of course OpenRC is not the only alternative, but I don't know enough about 
others to be able to comment on them.)

> particularly you can separate the configuration to another file while
> you need to copy the whole service file to another place in which it
> won't be updated by the package manager if a new version would be released.

That is incorrect, systemd allows for overriding files in 
/etc/systemd/system/${unit_name}.d/*.conf.  Furthermore, service units can 
read environment variables from a file via EnvironmentFile.  Although I'll 
grant you that AFAIK there's no convention for where place for them.

I'm not convinced that you actually understand systemd particularly well.  It 
seems to me that if you want to develop an informed opinion about it, you 
should:

a) Read the official documentation (don't just rely on what others say; even 
when well-intentioned, people can say stupid things).

b) Try to set up and/or run a systemd-based system, and seriously try to grok 
it.  Only then will you be able to compare it to other init systems properly.

I did a variation on (b) and migrated one of my systems to systemd, just so I 
could see what it was like.  Up until then I had only read about how "anti-
Unix" and "bloated" and "evil" etc. systemd was by one side, and how "super 
duper awesome" it was from another side, thus I was very cautious at first.  
Quite frankly, in retrospect I suspect that that divide in opinion is what 
really compelled me to try it for myself.  And that first-hand experience was 
very important, because I was able to learn for myself the good and bad of 
systemd.  In the end, for me, personally, it turned out that there was more 
good than bad, so I stuck with it.

> Heiko Baums

Greetings
-- 
Marc Joliet
--
"People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who know we
don't" - Bjarne Stroustrup

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Alan McKinnon]

On 19/12/2016 16:52, Marc Joliet wrote:

...

> I'm not convinced that you actually understand systemd particularly well.  It 
> seems to me that if you want to develop an informed opinion about it, you 
> should:
> 
> a) Read the official documentation (don't just rely on what others say; even 
> when well-intentioned, people can say stupid things).
> 
> b) Try to set up and/or run a systemd-based system, and seriously try to grok 
> it.  Only then will you be able to compare it to other init systems properly.

...

I feel the same way.

systemd is declarative and simple variables in a unit define what you
want. This makes sense - the list of what management functions a service
supports is a very short list - start/stop/restart/status. Apart from
configtest (a la Apache) what else is there really?

systemd could be the poster child for the declarative style and knock
ansible off it's perch where it currently reigns :-)

Looking at SysVInit, it's only real grace is that it's been around for
30+ years. But it defers all decisions to the daemon author/packager;
after a short while the ecosystem is so cluttered with weird scripts,
that packagers resort to bolting a declarative layer on top of init
scripts, as in the boilerplate you mentioned. The truth is, as designs
go, sysvinit is a /terrible/ design. It only lasted 30 years because it
forces all the tricky bits to be someone else's problem

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> The truth is, as designs
> go, sysvinit is a /terrible/ design. It only lasted 30 years because it
> forces all the tricky bits to be someone else's problem
>

I'm not sure I'd go as far as saying "terrible" - it does what it does
reasonably well.  I just doesn't do much.  When people compare
"systemd vs sysvinit" they're usually comparing systemd vs some other
service manager, since all sysvinit does on 99% of installations is
spawn some gettys and run the service manager.

One of the things that is obviously missing from sysvinit is the
ability to make non-persistent runtime changes.  You can tell it to
re-read inittab, but you can't say "please spawn 1 more getty, but
don't do that next boot."  The closest you could get to that is
modifying inittab, refreshing init, then restoring inittab and not
refreshing init.

Systemd makes gettys just an instanced service, and you can of course
start/stop those at will.  I believe you can also feed systemd a unit
without actually putting it on disk anywhere, though I'd need to
double-check that.  Since it uses D-Bus there is a lot you can do with
it via IPC, and in fact that is how the various helper programs
actually work.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 19.12.2016 um 15:52 schrieb Marc Joliet:
> That is incorrect, systemd allows for overriding files in 
> /etc/systemd/system/${unit_name}.d/*.conf.

Then this is very new.

> Furthermore, service units can 
> read environment variables from a file via EnvironmentFile.

Initscripts can do the same.

> I'm not convinced that you actually understand systemd particularly well.  It 
> seems to me that if you want to develop an informed opinion about it, you 
> should:

You don't need to be convinced. It's sufficient that I know systemd
pretty well from the beginning when the Poettering fanboys of Arch Linux
forced this crap onto the Arch Linux users, while they regularly were
telling that they don't force it onto their users, that it will be only
optional.

> a) Read the official documentation (don't just rely on what others say; even 
> when well-intentioned, people can say stupid things).

I did read all of Poettering's insults against his critics in his oh so
"technical" documentation. Thanks!

> b) Try to set up and/or run a systemd-based system, and seriously try to grok 
> it.  Only then will you be able to compare it to other init systems properly.

I already had to do it. That's why I went back from Arch Linux to
Gentoo. And that's why I'm currently trying out Devuan on my RasPi.
Looks pretty good so far. They even have a 64 bit image for the Pi 3.
And I already couldn't read those crappy binary systemd log files on a
correctly working POSIX system.

Btw., yes, systems without systemd boot a lot faster than systems with
systemd. Same experience made someone else here on the mailing list. I
forgot who it was.

So, yes, I know exactly what I'm talking about.

And, yes, systemd is broken by design and just a PITA.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 11:33 AM, Heiko Baums <lists@baums-on-web.de> wrote:
> Am 19.12.2016 um 15:52 schrieb Marc Joliet:
>> That is incorrect, systemd allows for overriding files in
>> /etc/systemd/system/${unit_name}.d/*.conf.
>
> Then this is very new.
>

They've been supported for quite a while (Mar 2013):
https://lwn.net/Articles/542609/

Before then the most straightforward solution was to override the
entire unit, which was hardly difficult.  There is a systemd utility
for helping you see what files might be able to removed from /etc in
favor of distro-supplied ones as they become available.

>> Furthermore, service units can
>> read environment variables from a file via EnvironmentFile.
>
> Initscripts can do the same.

Obviously.  The claim was made that systemd units can't take
configuration from an outside file and had to be directly modified.
The point was just that this was incorrect.

>
>> I'm not convinced that you actually understand systemd particularly well.  It
>> seems to me that if you want to develop an informed opinion about it, you
>> should:
>
> You don't need to be convinced. It's sufficient that I know systemd
> pretty well from the beginning when the Poettering fanboys of Arch Linux
> forced this crap onto the Arch Linux users, while they regularly were
> telling that they don't force it onto their users, that it will be only
> optional.

Clearly nobody forced you to run it, because you aren't running it
now.  And if you wanted to run openrc on Arch you certainly could.
Nobody will help you do it, but it certainly can be done.  I'm not
sure what the point of that would be, since the whole point of a
distribution is to share the workload of doing stuff like that with
people who are like-minded, and since you clearly disagree with the
Arch developers on this issue then it probably makes more sense to do
your own thing.

The beauty of FOSS is that you have the source, so you can make it
into whatever you want to be.  How do you think we got openrc working
on Gentoo in the first place?

Nobody is going to waste their time trying to convince you that
systemd is better than anything else, because in the end your opinion
doesn't actually affect us.  People who prefer systemd will maintain
it, and people who prefer openrc will maintain that, and we can all be
happy.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 20.12.2016 um 17:47 schrieb Rich Freeman:
> Clearly nobody forced you to run it, because you aren't running it
> now.

That's again one of those silly arguments. I'm just not running it
because I'm using Gentoo again. On Arch Linux they forced systemd onto
the users. Because the Arch Linux users don't have any choice if they
want to use Arch Linux, because they e.g. don't want to compile anything
and still want to have bleeding edge software.

So, please, stop twisting every word.

> Nobody is going to waste their time trying to convince you that
> systemd is better than anything else, because in the end your opinion
> doesn't actually affect us.

Because of your ignorant attitude. Fortunately it's not only my opinion.
Unfortunately the Poettering fanboys are just the loudest but not the
majority.

Btw... "doesn't actually affect us"? Didn't you tell you aren't a
Poettering fanboy?

> People who prefer systemd will maintain
> it, and people who prefer openrc will maintain that, and we can all be
> happy.

That's true for Gentoo, Slackware, Devuan, and maybe still Debian, but
not for the other Distros like Ubuntu and its derivatives, Arch Linux,
Redhat, Fedora etc.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Heiko Baums <lists@baums-on-web.de> wrote:
> Am 20.12.2016 um 17:47 schrieb Rich Freeman:
>> Clearly nobody forced you to run it, because you aren't running it
>> now.
>
> That's again one of those silly arguments. I'm just not running it
> because I'm using Gentoo again. On Arch Linux they forced systemd onto
> the users. Because the Arch Linux users don't have any choice if they
> want to use Arch Linux, because they e.g. don't want to compile anything
> and still want to have bleeding edge software.

Anybody can run openrc on Arch linux.  They just have to set it up
themselves, or form a group to share the work.

>
>> Nobody is going to waste their time trying to convince you that
>> systemd is better than anything else, because in the end your opinion
>> doesn't actually affect us.
>
> Because of your ignorant attitude. Fortunately it's not only my opinion.
> Unfortunately the Poettering fanboys are just the loudest but not the
> majority.

No, your opinion doesn't affect me because the only thing you've been
contributing is noise.  I don't need your help to run systemd, or
anything else, and you aren't offering it besides.

If anything it works the other way around.  There seem to be a lot
more Gentoo devs who run systemd who are actively contributing openrc
scripts than Gentoo devs who run openrc who are actively contributing
systemd units.  I haven't actually done a poll but I see a lot more
people asking the systemd team to help them write systemd units than
people asking the openrc team to help them write init.d scripts.

>> People who prefer systemd will maintain
>> it, and people who prefer openrc will maintain that, and we can all be
>> happy.
>
> That's true for Gentoo, Slackware, Devuan, and maybe still Debian, but
> not for the other Distros like Ubuntu and its derivatives, Arch Linux,
> Redhat, Fedora etc.
>

Anybody can maintain openrc on any distro.  Maybe they can't put it in
the official repository, that would be up to the people who control
those repositories.  However, as everybody is quick to point out the
dependency list for sysvinit+openrc is incredibly light, which makes
it fairly easy to run on any distro.  You could probably get sysvinit
running on arch in 15min.  Openrc would take longer, mainly because
you'd have to adapt the scripts for any services you care about.  But,
it isn't THAT hard to do.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Kai Peter]

On 2016-12-20 18:57, Rich Freeman wrote:

> 
> No, your opinion doesn't affect me because the only thing you've been
> contributing is noise.
That's a true word ...
> 
> If anything it works the other way around.  There seem to be a lot
> more Gentoo devs who run systemd who are actively contributing openrc
> scripts than Gentoo devs who run openrc who are actively contributing
> systemd units.  I haven't actually done a poll but I see a lot more
> people asking the systemd team to help them write systemd units than
> people asking the openrc team to help them write init.d scripts.
This sounds a bit dangerous to me :( from the point that I **don't 
want** to use systemd (as of now).

-- 
Sent with eQmail-1.10-dev

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 20.12.2016 um 18:57 schrieb Rich Freeman:
> but I see a lot more
> people asking the systemd team to help them write systemd units than
> people asking the openrc team to help them write init.d scripts.

Why oh why could that be?

And spare me your twisting of words.

> Anybody can maintain openrc on any distro.  Maybe they can't put it in
> the official repository, that would be up to the people who control
> those repositories.

Oh! Now we're getting a little bit closer?

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hello Rich, and Gentoo.

As a reference point, just before I start, I'm a contributor to Emacs,
both new stuff and bug fixing, in both C and Lisp, and (occasionally) I
write documentation.  ;-)

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 12:57:02PM -0500, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Heiko Baums <lists@baums-on-web.de> wrote:
> > Am 20.12.2016 um 17:47 schrieb Rich Freeman:
> >> Clearly nobody forced you to run it, because you aren't running it
> >> now.

> > That's again one of those silly arguments. I'm just not running it
> > because I'm using Gentoo again. On Arch Linux they forced systemd onto
> > the users. Because the Arch Linux users don't have any choice if they
> > want to use Arch Linux, because they e.g. don't want to compile anything
> > and still want to have bleeding edge software.

> Anybody can run openrc on Arch linux.  They just have to set it up
> themselves, or form a group to share the work.

There's no "just" to it.  It would be a long, time consuming project;
unless, of course you were already intimately familiar with both openrc
and Arch Linux.

I too get annoyed by the attitude "it's free software, _just_ change it
to do what you want/fork it.".  The software is indeed in one sense free,
in another sense it's tightly controlled by its maintainers.  Anybody
capable enough, with enough time on their hands can indeed change it, but
only for themselves - if the maintainers don't like your patch, then it's
going nowhere but your own box.  Unless, of course, you've got a really
massive amount of time on your hands, a group of like-minded hackers,
organisational ability, and the drive required to fork a project.

[ .... ]

> >> People who prefer systemd will maintain it, and people who prefer
> >> openrc will maintain that, and we can all be happy.

But for how long?  systemd is primarily a political project, not a
technical one.  Its object is clearly to turn GNU/Linux into a tightly
bound vertical stack where only Red Hat's views on what is good will
prevail.  Our freedom to chose which core packages to run is being
steadily encroached upon, and pretty soon we will have no choice at all.

Already, as discussed in this thread, pulseaudio has become a hard
dependency of Firefox on G/L, and pulseaudio is controlled by the
politicians.  The next step will be to make systemd a hard dependency of
pulseaudio (it will happen, just as it happened for udev and gnome), at
which point the "happy" people running openrc will not be able to run
Firefox.  Happy indeed.

Sadly, there are not enough people in the free software world who were
politically aware enough, and energetic enough, to fight this purloining
of our software by Red Hat.  It should surely have been obvious enough
when they made the technically loopy decision to subsume udev into
systemd, that the idea was to capture the core software.  The process is
largely complete - we have lost.  People not running systemd and friends
are gradually being pushed into irrelevant backwaters.

> > That's true for Gentoo, Slackware, Devuan, and maybe still Debian, but
> > not for the other Distros like Ubuntu and its derivatives, Arch Linux,
> > Redhat, Fedora etc.


> Anybody can maintain openrc on any distro.

No they can't.  Or at least, not unless they make it their main spare
time occupation, and already are competent hackers.

> Maybe they can't put it in the official repository, that would be up to
> the people who control those repositories.  However, as everybody is
> quick to point out the dependency list for sysvinit+openrc is
> incredibly light, which makes it fairly easy to run on any distro.  You
> could probably get sysvinit running on arch in 15min.

Sorry, but that's so far out of kilter with reality I have to object.  If
you are intimately familiar with openrc, the Linux booting system,
administrative things (like where to find the source code), technical
things (how to build it, how to link it into Linux), you just _might_
manage it in a few hours.  Somebody starting from scratch is not going to
get sysvinit running on a different distro in 15 hours, never mind 15
minutes.

Hacking free software is a slow laborious process.

> Openrc would take longer, mainly because you'd have to adapt the
> scripts for any services you care about.  But, it isn't THAT hard to
> do.

There's a lot of learning involved first.

I thoroughly dislike all these platitudes that have also annoyed Heiko.
That "you get what you pay for", "It's free, get up and hack", and so on.
There are (or, at least, used to be) unwritten understandings between
hackers, like: you don't make other hackers' lives difficult; you support
other hackers' freedom to hack; you _MAINTAIN_ your own products; even
you have a responsibility to the community to maintain your software.  It
is these understandings that allowed free software to flourish.
Predatory companies like Red Hat (there are probably others) have broken
these understandings, and twisted others' helpfulness and naivety to
their own perverted ends.

I don't like the way things are going.  Good night!

> -- 
> Rich

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 5:51 PM, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:
>
> As a reference point, just before I start, I'm a contributor to Emacs,
> both new stuff and bug fixing, in both C and Lisp, and (occasionally) I
> write documentation.  ;-)
>

Great.  I don't use any of that stuff.

How would you feel if I told you to just quit doing those things
(which you presumably enjoy) to maintain something else that you don't
care for, like systemd?

That would clearly be wrong of me.  People work on the stuff they're
interested in.  People who are interested in using openrc are going to
work on openrc.  People who are interested in systemd are going to
work on systemd.

It is nice if you run into a situation where you work on software I
like and I work on software you like.  However, that isn't the same as
pointing out that you contribute to something that you like, and
therefore I should also contribute to something that you like.

> On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 12:57:02PM -0500, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Heiko Baums <lists@baums-on-web.de> wrote:
>> > Am 20.12.2016 um 17:47 schrieb Rich Freeman:
>
>> Anybody can run openrc on Arch linux.  They just have to set it up
>> themselves, or form a group to share the work.
>
> There's no "just" to it.  It would be a long, time consuming project;
> unless, of course you were already intimately familiar with both openrc
> and Arch Linux.

Sure, and that is how we end up with stuff in the community-based FOSS
world.  People freely spend their time on long time-consuming
projects, so that others can benefit in turn, and probably so that
they can personally benefit in some way.

If something doesn't work on a particular distro, it is because nobody
cared enough to spend a lot of time on it.

>
> systemd is primarily a political project, not a technical one.

What political benefit do I gain from using and maintaining systemd?
I don't use any Redhat-originated distros at home or at work.  I don't
get paid in any way by them, or by anybody who actually profits from
FOSS much at all.  I'm certainly not going to gain votes on the Gentoo
Council by saying I use systemd, since Gentoo has become a bit of a
refuge for people who seem to despise it, and far more Gentoo
developers prefer openrc to systemd.

I use systemd because I personally find it useful, and the reasons for
that are largely technical in my judgment.

>
> Sadly, there are not enough people in the free software world who were
> politically aware enough, and energetic enough, to fight this purloining
> of our software by Red Hat.

Sometimes when people make different decisions than you do, it isn't
because they don't know something that you know, or because they're
not as smart as you.  Sometimes they just have different priorities.

I don't consider Red Hat taking over the world a serious threat.
Heaven forbid they donate more free software that I can choose to use
or not if I wish.

>
>> > That's true for Gentoo, Slackware, Devuan, and maybe still Debian, but
>> > not for the other Distros like Ubuntu and its derivatives, Arch Linux,
>> > Redhat, Fedora etc.
>
>
>> Anybody can maintain openrc on any distro.
>
> No they can't.  Or at least, not unless they make it their main spare
> time occupation, and already are competent hackers.

They could also hire somebody to maintain it for them, or barter what
they have in some way.  Maybe I could be persuaded to do a little
openrc work for you on Arch if you spent some time improving vim.  :)

>
>> Maybe they can't put it in the official repository, that would be up to
>> the people who control those repositories.  However, as everybody is
>> quick to point out the dependency list for sysvinit+openrc is
>> incredibly light, which makes it fairly easy to run on any distro.  You
>> could probably get sysvinit running on arch in 15min.
>
> Sorry, but that's so far out of kilter with reality I have to object.  If
> you are intimately familiar with openrc, the Linux booting system,
> administrative things (like where to find the source code), technical
> things (how to build it, how to link it into Linux), you just _might_
> manage it in a few hours.  Somebody starting from scratch is not going to
> get sysvinit running on a different distro in 15 hours, never mind 15
> minutes.

You don't need to know anything at all about openrc to get sysvinit
working.  Sysvinit doesn't depend on openrc in any way.

sysvinit consists of one 60-line configuration file (most of which is
comments), 8 binaries, and 5 symlinks.  Oh, and some manpages and docs
and stuff.  It isn't very hard to set up.

And that is how you go about things like this, one step at a time.

>
> I thoroughly dislike all these platitudes that have also annoyed Heiko.
> That "you get what you pay for", "It's free, get up and hack", and so on.

Well, ultimately these are attitudes that benefit the world of FOSS,
because 1 guy that actually contributes back is worth 100 who whine on
mailing lists all day.

Sure, I get that different people contribute in different ways, and
that is fine.  However, nobody is required to support a complex
configuration that you prefer but which they do not.  If you're right
that setting up openrc on another distro is a ton of work and requires
all kinds of expertise, then that is all the more reason that you
won't see it happen.  And it isn't like setting up systemd is any
easier.  The volunteers who got it running on Gentoo chose to invest
that time because they wanted to use it, and that was back when half
the maintainers couldn't be bothered to commit a systemd unit and a
few would actively try to revert such contributions (fortunately that
has not been a problem for a while).

If somebody prefers systemd to openrc, then of course they're going to
spend their time maintaining the one and not the other.

Gentoo supports choice, but only to the degree that people are willing
to invest in those choices.  As long as people want openrc to work
then it will, and certainly nobody is going to try to exclude it from
the repository.  And there are plenty of people around here who do
want to support it, so I don't see it going away anytime soon.

However, unless people actually invest in openrc on other distros,
then it simply won't be an option on other distros.

>
> I don't like the way things are going.  Good night!
>

There are lots of things I also don't like.  In the end this is a
community based distro, so we get what others are willing to
contribute, not what we want them to contribute.  Mark Shuttleworth
gets what he pays people to contribute, and that is another way to go
about it.  There are things I would love to see developed that most
people wouldn't care about, and as a result I might never see them
developed.  That is a shame, but being mad at everybody else for
having different preferences than me won't get me anywhere.

As far as Gentoo goes, we're about choice.  We don't have some
committee on high pick a winner and tell all the maintainers that they
all have to move from supporting x to supporting y.  We set reasonable
policies that let the various options co-exist, and people contribute
to what they want to.  I'm sorry if some other distro makes it harder
to get openrc running.  I'm less sorry if their only sin is to not
donate their time to make it work.  Either way there isn't much I can
do about it.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Daniel Campbell]

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On 12/20/2016 06:33 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> We don't have some
> committee on high pick a winner and tell all the maintainers that they
> all have to move from supporting x to supporting y.

Fair points across the board but this stood out to me. We *do* have
groups that, on some subset of the tree, exert what they feel to be
winners. QA, the KDE team, and GNOME team have all made formal
recommendations or requirements that they expect to see in ebuilds going
forward. QA is blessed by council of course, so they have a bit more
sway. But we're lying if we say we don't have committees making
decisions on packaging guidelines.

That's not the same as choosing a single package and telling every one
to scram, but we're not hands-off, either.

-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6


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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 10:49 PM, Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 12/20/2016 06:33 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> We don't have some
>> committee on high pick a winner and tell all the maintainers that they
>> all have to move from supporting x to supporting y.
>
> Fair points across the board but this stood out to me. We *do* have
> groups that, on some subset of the tree, exert what they feel to be
> winners. QA, the KDE team, and GNOME team have all made formal
> recommendations or requirements that they expect to see in ebuilds going
> forward. QA is blessed by council of course, so they have a bit more
> sway. But we're lying if we say we don't have committees making
> decisions on packaging guidelines.
>
> That's not the same as choosing a single package and telling every one
> to scram, but we're not hands-off, either.
>

Anybody wishing to add stuff to the main repository does not get a
choice in following QA policy (though these matters can be appealed to
the Council).  However, their policies for the most part are fairly
sensible and concern stuff like listing things as a dependency if you
link to them and so on.

KDE and GNOME developers work as a team, but these teams do not have
any exclusive control over anything in the tree.  If a Gentoo
developer doesn't like what they've done with kmail they can add a
kmail2 or kmail-rich0 or whatever that works they way they want it to.
Heck, if a bunch of devs wanted to do their own thing they could start
a kde-improved team if they wanted to.

In general this doesn't happen, because the developers interested in
maintaining these packages tend to agree on how they want to maintain
them, or at least they don't care enough to bother with forking them.

How do you think we ended up with eudev?

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Daniel Campbell]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3608 bytes --]

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 07:53:51AM -0500, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 10:49 PM, Daniel Campbell <zlg@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > On 12/20/2016 06:33 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> >> We don't have some
> >> committee on high pick a winner and tell all the maintainers that they
> >> all have to move from supporting x to supporting y.
> >
> > Fair points across the board but this stood out to me. We *do* have
> > groups that, on some subset of the tree, exert what they feel to be
> > winners. QA, the KDE team, and GNOME team have all made formal
> > recommendations or requirements that they expect to see in ebuilds going
> > forward. QA is blessed by council of course, so they have a bit more
> > sway. But we're lying if we say we don't have committees making
> > decisions on packaging guidelines.
> >
> > That's not the same as choosing a single package and telling every one
> > to scram, but we're not hands-off, either.
> >
> 
> Anybody wishing to add stuff to the main repository does not get a
> choice in following QA policy (though these matters can be appealed to
> the Council).  However, their policies for the most part are fairly
> sensible and concern stuff like listing things as a dependency if you
> link to them and so on.
> 
> KDE and GNOME developers work as a team, but these teams do not have
> any exclusive control over anything in the tree.  If a Gentoo
> developer doesn't like what they've done with kmail they can add a
> kmail2 or kmail-rich0 or whatever that works they way they want it to.
> Heck, if a bunch of devs wanted to do their own thing they could start
> a kde-improved team if they wanted to.

Right, I'm not disagreeing with any of that. I was just pointing out
that we *do* have teams that enforce their view of how packages should
be handled -- whether with Council's authority (QA) or not (others).
Some groups attempt to assert control over certain USE flags, too. Most
of the time we just aim for consistency with flags, so I can't fault
that. But we're lying to ourselves if we pretend that there aren't
groups within Gentoo who exert policy against others and make package
decisions, be it legitimate or otherwise.

If you want examples, look at gtk <-> gtk2 <-> gtk3, or qt <-> qt4 <->
qt5. Or memcache -> memcached, bikeshedding wrt virtual providers, etc.
At a certain point, teams are given the go-ahead by someone in authority
(QA or Council usually) to make sweeping changes or urge maintainers to
make changes. I'm not saying this is 100% bad; I'm just ensuring we stay
honest about what we do as a distro.

No value statements are intended.

> 
> In general this doesn't happen, because the developers interested in
> maintaining these packages tend to agree on how they want to maintain
> them, or at least they don't care enough to bother with forking them.
> 
> How do you think we ended up with eudev?

I assume we ended up with eudev because upstream decided that
they were going back on their promise that udev would remain usable
without systemd. (I can fish up the e-mail -- sent by Lennart himself
-- if you'd like. It may take some time) To this day it still is, but
that's only until the successor to kdbus wriggles itself into the
kernel. At that point, they will have the leverage (and the excuse, in
their minds) to drop all support for udev outside of systemd.

eudev is an attempt to retain udev as it was originally -- init
agnostic. At some point in the future, it will become the only way to
get udev outside of systemd.

> 
> -- 
> Rich
> 

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Walter Dnes]

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 05:19:35PM -0800, Daniel Campbell wrote
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 07:53:51AM -0500, Rich Freeman wrote:
> 
> > How do you think we ended up with eudev?
> 
> I assume we ended up with eudev because upstream decided that
> they were going back on their promise that udev would remain usable
> without systemd. (I can fish up the e-mail -- sent by Lennart himself
> -- if you'd like. It may take some time) To this day it still is, but
> that's only until the successor to kdbus wriggles itself into the
> kernel. At that point, they will have the leverage (and the excuse, in
> their minds) to drop all support for udev outside of systemd.

https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2012-August/006066.html

> Well, we intent to continue to make it possible to run udevd outside
> of systemd. But that's about it. We will not polish that, or add
> new features to that or anything.
> 
> OTOH we do polish behaviour of udev when used *within* systemd
> however, and that's our primary focus.
> 
> And what we will certainly not do is compromise the uniform
> integration into systemd for some cosmetic improvements for
> non-systemd systems.
> 
> (Yes, udev on non-systemd systems is in our eyes a dead end, in case
> you haven't noticed it yet. I am looking forward to the day when we
> can drop that support entirely.)
>
> Lennart
>
> --
> Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc.

  Right now the "stand-alone udev" actually requires building the entire
systemd+udev combo, and then copying just the udev parts.  I remember
Anthony Basile mentioning that he had refactored the code during the the
udev ==> eudev conversion process, and removed over a hundred uncalled
functions.  They were probably part of udev's integration into systemd.
So one advantage of eudev is that it has less memory footprint and
attack surface.

> eudev is an attempt to retain udev as it was originally -- init
> agnostic. At some point in the future, it will become the only way to
> get udev outside of systemd.

  Agreed.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tanstaafl]

On 12/20/2016 9:33 PM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 5:51 PM, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:
>> systemd is primarily a political project, not a technical one.

> What political benefit do I gain from using and maintaining systemd?

Interesting that you snipped the rest of his comment - or more his main
point - that followed.

How about commenting on the most important point he made:

On 12/20/2016 5:51 PM, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:
> ... [systemd's] object is clearly to turn GNU/Linux into a tightly
> bound vertical stack where only Red Hat's views on what is good will
> prevail. Our freedom to chose which core packages to run is being
> steadily encroached upon, and pretty soon we will have no choice at
> all.
> 
> Already, as discussed in this thread, pulseaudio has become a hard 
> dependency of Firefox on G/L, and pulseaudio is controlled by the 
> politicians. The next step will be to make systemd a hard dependency 
> of pulseaudio (it will happen, just as it happened for udev and
> gnome), at which point the "happy" people running openrc will not be
> able to run Firefox. Happy indeed.

This, to me, is the single most important problem with systemd, but I'm
not sure that enough people who are in a position to be able to do
anything about it care about or are really fully aware of it.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 7:36 AM, Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@libertytrek.org> wrote:
> On 12/20/2016 9:33 PM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 5:51 PM, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:
>>> systemd is primarily a political project, not a technical one.
>
>> What political benefit do I gain from using and maintaining systemd?
>
> Interesting that you snipped the rest of his comment - or more his main
> point - that followed.
>

I don't really consider it political, but I think it was largely
correct insofar as one of the goals of systemd is to standardize the
core system dependencies/etc so that packages can rely on them being
present and vertically integrate.  I don't agree that you are "forced"
to use systemd.  Maybe you might be forced to use a different browser
or fork your browser or patch it or stick with an old version and
backport security fixes if you want to use it without systemd some
day.  But, if the entire Firefox developer community quit and decided
to do something else (a la Thunderbird) you'd be in a similar boat.
Sometimes you get what you pay for.

I get that people who want to avoid systemd are frustrated by this,
but honestly it feels like spitting against the wind at this point.  I
was frustrated back when everybody stopped taking care of kde-3.5 and
kde-4 wasn't really ready and was a resource hog on older systems.  I
switched to xfce for a while, because ultimately I can't demand that
the kde project cater to my whims.

The moment you choose to run code that you didn't write yourself, then
you become dependent on them.  With FOSS it gives you a lot more
options as anybody can potentially fork it and take it in a new
direction.  That doesn't change the reality that developing FOSS takes
work, and if 1% of the community wants to take it in a substantially
different direction they're going to have a much harder time of it
than the 99%.

In general though, nobody is required to engage in
debates/arguments/etc here, or even read your posts.  People choose to
participate in list discussions just as they choose what software they
want to maintain.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 21.12.2016 um 14:03 schrieb Rich Freeman:
> I don't agree that you are "forced"
> to use systemd.  Maybe you might be forced to use a different browser
> or fork your browser or patch it or stick with an old version and
> backport security fixes if you want to use it without systemd some
> day.

And there it is again this silly argument and this twisting of words.
Typical for those Poettering fanboys.

> But, if the entire Firefox developer community quit and decided
> to do something else (a la Thunderbird) you'd be in a similar boat.
> Sometimes you get what you pay for.

And this again. You know the difference between OpenSource and ClosedSource?

You pay for ClosedSource. For OpenSource you don't need to pay. But I
have neither time nor energy to explain you the philosophy (before
Poetterix) of OpenSource. But I can tell you this much. OpenSource and
its developers usually have no commercial intentions. It seems to be
different for Poettering and his fanboys.

> I get that people who want to avoid systemd are frustrated by this,
> but honestly it feels like spitting against the wind at this point.

And the arrogance and ignorance of Poettering's and his fanboys' again.

> I
> was frustrated back when everybody stopped taking care of kde-3.5 and
> kde-4 wasn't really ready and was a resource hog on older systems.  I
> switched to xfce for a while, because ultimately I can't demand that
> the kde project cater to my whims.

Just compare apples and oranges. Also typical for Poettering and his
fanboys.

The situation with KDE has nothing - and I mean nothing - to do with the
situation with systemd. But I have neither time nor energy to explain
that, too. I would talk to a wall anyway.

> In general though, nobody is required to engage in
> debates/arguments/etc here, or even read your posts.  People choose to
> participate in list discussions just as they choose what software they
> want to maintain.

There they are again: The apples and the oranges.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 1:56 PM, Heiko Baums <lists@baums-on-web.de> wrote:
>
> And this again. You know the difference between OpenSource and ClosedSource?
>
> You pay for ClosedSource. For OpenSource you don't need to pay. But I
> have neither time nor energy to explain you the philosophy (before
> Poetterix) of OpenSource.

OpenSource has nothing to do with whether something costs money.  Not
even RMS or ESR would agree with "For OpenSource you don't need to
pay."

For starters, all software costs somebody something.  It might be
offered for free TO YOU, but somebody spent a lot of time and effort
making it, and somebody may or may not have been compensated to do it.

Here is a decent overview from the FSF's perspective, though they're
more focused on free software than open source:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html

Here is their take on free software vs open source:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html

Now, if you asked ESR for his take he'd have a different perspective,
though he'd agree with the FSF that neither has anything to do with
whether you have to pay for it, and he would agree on the
differentiation between OSS and FOSS.

Some off the cuff definitions:
Open Source: generally means the author makes the source code
available.  OSI has their take on it which most people accept:
https://opensource.org/osd
Free Software: licensed in a manner that guarantees the FSF's four
freedoms.  https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html

In general all free software is open source, but not all open source
software is free software.

Either can be free as in beer or not.  It is completely legal for me
to download a Debian DVD, make some changes to it, put a copy of the
source code on the DVD, and offer to sell it to you for $5000 licensed
under its original licenses.  The only thing I can't do is prevent you
from sticking an image of that DVD on your website after you buy it so
that nobody else has to buy it from me.  In practice a lot of it tends
to be free as in beer because FOSS licenses make it impossible to
prevent somebody from offering it free of charge, and people tend not
to pay for something when they can get the same thing for free.
However, companies like Red Hat can and do charge for their distros
all the same, usually offering things like support to entice people to
pay.  When you buy RHEL you're buying the software and not just the
support, even if you could get most of it for free without paying for
it.

>  But I can tell you this much. OpenSource and
> its developers usually have no commercial intentions.

This is true of some open source software.  I'm not convinced it is
even true for most of it.

Half of the companies that contribute to Linux are for-profit entities
that have a profit motive behind their contributions.  Some of the
most popular Linux distros like Ubuntu and RHEL are for-profit
enterprises.  A few major projects are backed by foundations, but IMO
some of them are really only non-profit in the sense that they don't
pay dividends to anybody (heck, the US National Football League is
non-profit by that definition); some of them have small armies of
executives and administrative staff like any other large corporation.
Quite a bit of FOSS isn't developed by organizations like Gentoo which
are community based with low amounts of money going around.

A lot of FOSS is also failed commercial software, or parallel
community versions to commercial software (think Fedora/CentOS, or the
old MySQL model).

And there is nothing wrong with any of this.  It is just free
software.  At worst you can just ignore it.  At best you can adapt it
to your own needs, or just use it as-is if it fits your needs.  We
aren't worse off because somebody made it available to us.  I might
never use RHEL, but the fact that it is out there doesn't hurt me.
Maybe the fact that RHEL is actually paying developers means that
fewer of them have free time to donate (assuming that you don't care
for the stuff RedHat does contribute), but who am I to begrudge
somebody the right to make a living?  Programmers don't have to be
starving artists to claim some kind of moral superiority.

Personally I prefer to work in a community-based environment, which is
why I'm here and not running Debian (well, that's just one reason, I
also prefer the Gentoo approach in general and have used Gentoo since
long before openrc even existed, let alone systemd).  Ultimately
though we're just a small part of a much larger ecosystem.  There are
things about that ecosystem that I like more, and things that I like
less.  However, if we allow developers the freedom to create what they
want to create then we're going to need to deal with the reality that
sometimes they won't want to create the things we want them to.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 21.12.2016 um 20:31 schrieb Rich Freeman:
> OpenSource has nothing to do with whether something costs money.  Not
> even RMS or ESR would agree with "For OpenSource you don't need to
> pay."

Ok, now we're getting a little bit closer again.

All the rest... I have neither time nor energy to answer to this.

You definitely have not understood the original philosophy of OpenSource
and the difference between OpenSource and ClosedSource.

It's not only about the open source code. There's a lot more about that.

But like I said... No time and no energy. And the wall I would talk to.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Daniel Campbell]

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On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 07:56:29PM +0100, Heiko Baums wrote:
> Am 21.12.2016 um 14:03 schrieb Rich Freeman:
> > I don't agree that you are "forced"
> > to use systemd.  Maybe you might be forced to use a different browser
> > or fork your browser or patch it or stick with an old version and
> > backport security fixes if you want to use it without systemd some
> > day.
> 
> And there it is again this silly argument and this twisting of words.
> Typical for those Poettering fanboys.
> 
> > But, if the entire Firefox developer community quit and decided
> > to do something else (a la Thunderbird) you'd be in a similar boat.
> > Sometimes you get what you pay for.
> 
> And this again. You know the difference between OpenSource and ClosedSource?
> 
> You pay for ClosedSource. For OpenSource you don't need to pay. But I
> have neither time nor energy to explain you the philosophy (before
> Poetterix) of OpenSource. But I can tell you this much. OpenSource and
> its developers usually have no commercial intentions. It seems to be
> different for Poettering and his fanboys.
> 
> > I get that people who want to avoid systemd are frustrated by this,
> > but honestly it feels like spitting against the wind at this point.
> 
> And the arrogance and ignorance of Poettering's and his fanboys' again.
> 
> > I
> > was frustrated back when everybody stopped taking care of kde-3.5 and
> > kde-4 wasn't really ready and was a resource hog on older systems.  I
> > switched to xfce for a while, because ultimately I can't demand that
> > the kde project cater to my whims.
> 
> Just compare apples and oranges. Also typical for Poettering and his
> fanboys.
> 
> The situation with KDE has nothing - and I mean nothing - to do with the
> situation with systemd. But I have neither time nor energy to explain
> that, too. I would talk to a wall anyway.
> 
> > In general though, nobody is required to engage in
> > debates/arguments/etc here, or even read your posts.  People choose to
> > participate in list discussions just as they choose what software they
> > want to maintain.
> 
> There they are again: The apples and the oranges.
> 
> Heiko Baums
> 

I'm getting the feeling that others would be more receptive to your
communication if you weren't belittling them with name-calling. I
personally feel similarly about systemd and Poettering, but it's more
effective to target ideas and behaviors rather than people. Targeting
people will -- understandably -- cause them to become defensive, which
will only make them dig their heels in and decide you aren't worth
conversing with. I don't think that's your intention.

Rich has a point that we're dependent on code we don't write. So when a
project goes in a direction we don't like, we have three options: go
along with it, reject it and use something different, or fork it.

Most choose 1 or 2 because 3 is demanding and often requires a team.
Teams are hard, wetware is hard.

I'm 100% with you on the political front. As long as we have distros
that respect that choice -- Gentoo, Devuan, etc. -- we still retain the
ability to "dodge" projects like systemd or Firefox. Life may become a
bit more difficult due to learning a new package, or finding a new
project that "speaks to you", but ultimately libre software developers
are volunteers and we can't force them to do anything. This is the
Bazaar at work.

Ironically, there are parallels to this and the idea of markets. If a
vendor isn't providing what you want, do you attack them or simply go to
another vendor? In libre software, mindshare and participation are
currency. Taking your currency somewhere else is the best way to show
that you don't approve of a project's direction. Blog posts, forks, or
participation in other (competing) projects shows that you care enough
to devote time to it. Most in the community respect someone who "puts
their money where their mouth is", so to speak. Taking part and getting
involved shows that you care and are willing to help make goals become
reality.

So, what can you or others do about Firefox? Use another browser. Help
them out, even if it's testing or bug reports. That stuff matters. I've
already started looking for another browser, myself, since I plan to
excise PA from my system again some time. It can definitely be done.

At some point, you have to ask yourself, "How much do I care about
this?" If you care enough, you will do something about it. It's my hope
that my e-mail inspires you to become more active in libre software.

TLDR: You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[karl]

Regarding the controversy about systemd etc.

The problem isn't that systemd is available, or that there exist a 
company named Red Had or that there exist a developer named Lennart
Poettering that develops programs.

The problem is that an ever increasing amount of programs list systemd 
or some of its libs as a depenancy. So it is getting harder and harder 
to opt out.

The situation is similar to the one with udev and variants. Some 
programs list udev as a requirement even though there is no requirment
on technical grounds. I.e. X, I can run X perfectly without udev, I
just have to make my own xorg.conf, or I might want to run X with udev
since then it handles multiple keyboards with different layouts 
automatically. It's like when buying a car, some prefer automats, some
stick shift. There are pro and cons for both cases.

Sometimes its useful and sometimes its not needed, why should I be more 
or less forced to use it in every case ? No one is expecting me to run a 
webserver on every systems, why then the heated arguments about this ?
It should be my own decision what to install, not someone elses.

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Aspö Data
Lilla Aspö 148
S-742 94 Östhammar
Sweden
+46 173 140 57

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 7:09 AM,  <karl@aspodata.se> wrote:
>
> The problem is that an ever increasing amount of programs list systemd
> or some of its libs as a depenancy. So it is getting harder and harder
> to opt out.
>
> The situation is similar to the one with udev and variants. Some
> programs list udev as a requirement even though there is no requirment
> on technical grounds. I.e. X, I can run X perfectly without udev, I
> just have to make my own xorg.conf, or I might want to run X with udev
> since then it handles multiple keyboards with different layouts
> automatically. It's like when buying a car, some prefer automats, some
> stick shift. There are pro and cons for both cases.
>

I get your frustration.

Below is just my personal sense of things, ultimately the entire
Council sets policy but this is my sense of the "Gentoo Way" and how I
see things being likely to go.

On Gentoo at a distro level we're never going to force package
maintainers to make any particular package a dependency as long as the
software works without it.  At the same time we're not going to force
maintainers to patch software to eliminate dependencies.  We certainly
encourage maintainers to do things like this within reason, but we
don't require it.

In your example, if upstream xorg starts sticking dbus calls to
udev/systemd/etc in their code, and it fails to launch if those
packages aren't running, then unless somebody patches out that
behavior or makes it conditional then udev/systemd would need to be
listed as dependencies.  It isn't like simply not listing them would
fix the issue anyway, it would just cause X to fail to launch for some
users.

When software just runs without some features without another package
installed, then there is no requirement to list it as a dependency
(generally speaking).  Maybe during the install it might suggest
installing some other packages for full functionality.

In the end though, if xorg requires systemd as shipped upstream, that
is an upstream issue.  I realize you'll get a lot less sympathy with
many upstream projects than you'll get around here because
goals/philosophies differ.

And as upstream projects go further down that road, it will in
practice become more difficult for a distro like Gentoo to maintain
larger and larger patches to alter their behavior.  Gentoo as a distro
will probably never force a developer to give up, but at some point
you're talking about maintaining a fork and not a patch.  Now, you can
look at eudev and see that there is ultimately no limit on how long
that can go on, but it depends on people willing to do the work.

Ultimately Gentoo is a place where we all come together to try to
support our ability to maintain a diverse configuration space.  Still,
that diversity largely depends on the interests of those who put in
the work to maintain it.  And it often comes at a cost of less
vertical integration and automation.  At a distro level we try to
remove barriers to individual contribution, not force individuals to
contribute in a manner that we would prefer them to.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Corbin Bird]

On 12/21/2016 06:09 AM, karl@aspodata.se wrote:
> Regarding the controversy about systemd etc.
>
> The problem isn't that systemd is available, or that there exist a 
> company named Red Had or that there exist a developer named Lennart
> Poettering that develops programs.
>
> The problem is that an ever increasing amount of programs list systemd 
> or some of its libs as a depenancy. So it is getting harder and harder 
> to opt out.
>
> The situation is similar to the one with udev and variants. Some 
> programs list udev as a requirement even though there is no requirment
> on technical grounds. I.e. X, I can run X perfectly without udev, I
> just have to make my own xorg.conf, or I might want to run X with udev
> since then it handles multiple keyboards with different layouts 
> automatically. It's like when buying a car, some prefer automats, some
> stick shift. There are pro and cons for both cases.
>
> Sometimes its useful and sometimes its not needed, why should I be more 
> or less forced to use it in every case ? No one is expecting me to run a 
> webserver on every systems, why then the heated arguments about this ?
> It should be my own decision what to install, not someone elses.
>
> Regards,
> /Karl Hammar
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Aspö Data
> Lilla Aspö 148
> S-742 94 Östhammar
> Sweden
> +46 173 140 57
>
>
>
The other thing not really mentioned about systemd .... the problems of
"fixing" systems with it.

Its a "one-size-fits-all" solution, just like Windows. If you don't have
a "standard" desktop / notebook ... you are S.O.L.

The old manual method of configuration is extremely flexible, you can
get the "who-knows-where-it-came-from-component" to work. The new
"automagic" of udev / systemd .... forget it. At least with script based
init systems I could change the run level to fix Xorg problems.

The systemd configuration files are designed for programmers, not
technicians. And their is a HUGE difference between "programmers" and
"technicians". Different aptitudes, different skills. The old .conf
files, technicians can easily handle. Requiring everyone to be a
programmer is a really bad idea.

You really don't want to see the "quality" of the code a technician
would produce :(

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 8:36 AM, Corbin Bird <corbinbird@charter.net> wrote:
>
> The old manual method of configuration is extremely flexible, you can
> get the "who-knows-where-it-came-from-component" to work. The new
> "automagic" of udev / systemd .... forget it. At least with script based
> init systems I could change the run level to fix Xorg problems.

udev and systemd operate based on text configuration files that are
declarative in nature.

You can certainly change the "run level" in systemd (what you'd call a
runlevel in openrc would be a target in systemd).  You can even pass
the default target on the kernel command line, or change the default
target in /etc. As with openrc they aren't numbered and you aren't
limited to any particular number of them.  There are some standard
ones out of the box, like multi-user, emergency, getty, basic, etc.

>
> The systemd configuration files are designed for programmers, not
> technicians. And their is a HUGE difference between "programmers" and
> "technicians". Different aptitudes, different skills. The old .conf
> files, technicians can easily handle. Requiring everyone to be a
> programmer is a really bad idea.
>

The only "configuration" files openrc supports for services are shell
scripts, as opposed to declarative configuration files used by
systemd.  Now, openrc init.d shell scripts might source configuration
from some text file in /etc/conf.d, but there is nothing that prevents
systemd units from doing the same.  On Gentoo we stick the settings in
drop-in files instead, but these are no more complex.

Here is an example of a Gentoo systemd drop-in:
/etc/systemd/system/ntpdate.service.d/00gentoo.conf
[Service]
Environment="SERVER=0.gentoo.pool.ntp.org 1.gentoo.pool.ntp.org
2.gentoo.pool.ntp.org 3.gentoo.pool.ntp.org"


That hardly requires programming to understand.


And here is the entire ntpdate unit file:
/usr/lib/systemd/system/ntpdate.service
[Unit]
Description=Set time via NTP using ntpdate
After=network-online.target nss-lookup.target
Before=time-sync.target
Wants=time-sync.target
Conflicts=systemd-timesyncd.service

[Service]
Type=oneshot
ExecStart=/usr/sbin/ntpdate -b -u $SERVER
RemainAfterExit=yes

[Install]
WantedBy=multi-user.target


No programming there either.

Most of the stuff that is hard to understand in the file are the
dependencies, and that is just because you need to learn the
terminology that systemd uses, though most of that is straightforward.
The After= line is roughly equivalent to "use net dns" in openrc,
though systemd has a lot more virtuals defined out of the box and
they're more granular.  For example, systemd distinguishes between an
interface existing, and an interface having an IP/etc, while on openrc
we have just one virtual that covers the latter.

I know, it almost sounds like the systemd design is intended to
support running a diverse service ecosystem.  Go figure...

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Corbin Bird]

On 12/21/2016 08:28 AM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 8:36 AM, Corbin Bird <corbinbird@charter.net> wrote:
>> The old manual method of configuration is extremely flexible, you can
>> get the "who-knows-where-it-came-from-component" to work. The new
>> "automagic" of udev / systemd .... forget it. At least with script based
>> init systems I could change the run level to fix Xorg problems.
> udev and systemd operate based on text configuration files that are
> declarative in nature.
>
> You can certainly change the "run level" in systemd (what you'd call a
> runlevel in openrc would be a target in systemd).  You can even pass
> the default target on the kernel command line, or change the default
> target in /etc. As with openrc they aren't numbered and you aren't
> limited to any particular number of them.  There are some standard
> ones out of the box, like multi-user, emergency, getty, basic, etc.
>
>> The systemd configuration files are designed for programmers, not
>> technicians. And their is a HUGE difference between "programmers" and
>> "technicians". Different aptitudes, different skills. The old .conf
>> files, technicians can easily handle. Requiring everyone to be a
>> programmer is a really bad idea.
>>
> The only "configuration" files openrc supports for services are shell
> scripts, as opposed to declarative configuration files used by
> systemd.  Now, openrc init.d shell scripts might source configuration
> from some text file in /etc/conf.d, but there is nothing that prevents
> systemd units from doing the same.  On Gentoo we stick the settings in
> drop-in files instead, but these are no more complex.
>
> Here is an example of a Gentoo systemd drop-in:
> /etc/systemd/system/ntpdate.service.d/00gentoo.conf
> [Service]
> Environment="SERVER=0.gentoo.pool.ntp.org 1.gentoo.pool.ntp.org
> 2.gentoo.pool.ntp.org 3.gentoo.pool.ntp.org"
>
>
> That hardly requires programming to understand.
>
>
> And here is the entire ntpdate unit file:
> /usr/lib/systemd/system/ntpdate.service
> [Unit]
> Description=Set time via NTP using ntpdate
> After=network-online.target nss-lookup.target
> Before=time-sync.target
> Wants=time-sync.target
> Conflicts=systemd-timesyncd.service
>
> [Service]
> Type=oneshot
> ExecStart=/usr/sbin/ntpdate -b -u $SERVER
> RemainAfterExit=yes
>
> [Install]
> WantedBy=multi-user.target
>
>
> No programming there either.
>
> Most of the stuff that is hard to understand in the file are the
> dependencies, and that is just because you need to learn the
> terminology that systemd uses, though most of that is straightforward.
> The After= line is roughly equivalent to "use net dns" in openrc,
> though systemd has a lot more virtuals defined out of the box and
> they're more granular.  For example, systemd distinguishes between an
> interface existing, and an interface having an IP/etc, while on openrc
> we have just one virtual that covers the latter.
>
> I know, it almost sounds like the systemd design is intended to
> support running a diverse service ecosystem.  Go figure...
>

I noticed what you avoided addressing.

The mailing list is not for "flame wars". I will not respond to any
further comments from you.

Have a nice day.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 21.12.2016 um 15:28 schrieb Rich Freeman:
> udev and systemd operate based on text configuration files that are
> declarative in nature.

Seldom laughed as much.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 11:33 AM, Heiko Baums <lists@baums-on-web.de> wrote:
>>
>> You don't need to be convinced. It's sufficient that I know systemd
>> pretty well from the beginning when the Poettering fanboys of Arch Linux
>> forced this crap onto the Arch Linux users, while they regularly were
>> telling that they don't force it onto their users, that it will be only
>> optional.
>
> Clearly nobody forced you to run it, because you aren't running it
> now.  And if you wanted to run openrc on Arch you certainly could.
> Nobody will help you do it, but it certainly can be done.

To Rich: There are howtos

To Heiko: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=arch+linux+openrc

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Marc Joliet <marcec@gmx.de> wrote:

> When people compare systemd unit files to init scripts, they usually
> mean *raw* (LSB?) sysvinit scripts (as IIUC Debian use{s,d}), with all
> of their ridiculous amounts of boilerplate.

The latest Debian init.d skeleton uses "#!/lib/init/init-d-script" as
its shebang

<BEGIN>
th@localhost ~ $ cat /etc/init.d/skeleton
#!/bin/sh
# kFreeBSD do not accept scripts as interpreters, using #!/bin/sh and sourcing.
if [ true != "$INIT_D_SCRIPT_SOURCED" ] ; then
    set "$0" "$@"; INIT_D_SCRIPT_SOURCED=true . /lib/init/init-d-script
fi
### BEGIN INIT INFO
# Provides:          skeleton
# Required-Start:    $remote_fs $syslog
# Required-Stop:     $remote_fs $syslog
# Default-Start:     2 3 4 5
# Default-Stop:      0 1 6
# Short-Description: Example initscript
# Description:       This file should be used to construct scripts to be
#                    placed in /etc/init.d.  This example start a
#                    single forking daemon capable of writing a pid
#                    file.  To get other behavoirs, implemend
#                    do_start(), do_stop() or other functions to
#                    override the defaults in /lib/init/init-d-script.
### END INIT INFO

# Author: Foo Bar <foobar@baz.org>
#
# Please remove the "Author" lines above and replace them
# with your own name if you copy and modify this script.

DESC="Description of the service"
DAEMON=/usr/sbin/daemonexecutablename
</END>

You can source an environment file and add "DAEMON_ARGS=" should you
need to do so.

This was created in the debian-devel@ systemd thread by the
sysinit/sysvrc maintainer.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 18.12.2016 um 00:17 schrieb Heiko Baums:
> Btw., I hope that the Devuan people once will make a release for the Pi,
> too.

They already did.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Taiidan]

On 12/17/2016 04:57 PM, Marc Joliet wrote:

> On Saturday 17 December 2016 19:20:03 Heiko Baums wrote:
>> Am 17.12.2016 um 15:58 schrieb Rich Freeman:
> [...]
>>> If you don't think the guides on how to install Gentoo on a Pi are
>>> good enough, then play around with it until you figure it out, and
>>> then post an article on the Wiki.
>> Didn't you read my e-mail? I don't want to have Gentoo on my Pi, because
>> this would destroy the advantage of the Pi, its low power consumption.
>>
>> Well, maybe I will install Gentoo on the Pi once, just for fun, but
>> that's not the question here.
> Looks like somebody hasn't heard of cross-compiling!  Perhaps check out sys-
> devel/crossdev and/or ask on the gentoo-embedded mailing list.  In fact, in
> this particular case I *will* provide you with a link:
>
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi_Cross_building
>
>> I didn't ask for a howto for installing Gentoo on a Pi, I asked for a
>> howto for getting rid of systemd on recent versions of Arch Linux,
>> Debian, Raspbian, Ubuntu, Fedora etc. You said it's possible and I'm not
>> forced to use systemd, so I guess you know how and can explain it to me.
> Aha, so it's not enough that there are distros *right now* that let you avoid
> systemd (e.g., Gentoo, Funtoo, Devuan, Knoppix), it has to be one of *those
> particular* distros.
>
> [...]
>
> Viele Grüße
Funtoo, knoppix and devuan are not serious professional grade distros, 
two of those are in beta and gentoo isn't something you want on most 
production servers.

You can't be seriously suggesting that hobbyist distros with one or two 
developers and bad security policies is a serious replacement for the 
systemd corrupted distros can you?


For some reason everyone in this thread also seems to be making this 
about sysvinit vs systemd rather than systemd vs sysvinit and openRC...

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Andrej Rode]

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> Funtoo, knoppix and devuan are not serious professional grade distros,
> two of those are in beta and gentoo isn't something you want on most
> production servers.
> 
> You can't be seriously suggesting that hobbyist distros with one or two
> developers and bad security policies is a serious replacement for the
> systemd corrupted distros can you?

So bascially you want to have a professinal grade distribution developed
by independent hobbyists for free?
Somehow distro maintainers have to be fed and live from something. So
either you have a corporate-free hobbyist distro with a handful of devs
or you have to suck it up and deal with it that people get paid by
companies to develop free software (which is actually a good thing). And
their company can give them directions how to develop free software they
are working on.

Cheers,
Andrej


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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Daniel Campbell]

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On 12/17/2016 08:58 PM, Andrej Rode wrote:
> 
>> Funtoo, knoppix and devuan are not serious professional grade distros,
>> two of those are in beta and gentoo isn't something you want on most
>> production servers.
>>
>> You can't be seriously suggesting that hobbyist distros with one or two
>> developers and bad security policies is a serious replacement for the
>> systemd corrupted distros can you?
> 
> So bascially you want to have a professinal grade distribution developed
> by independent hobbyists for free?
> Somehow distro maintainers have to be fed and live from something. So
> either you have a corporate-free hobbyist distro with a handful of devs
> or you have to suck it up and deal with it that people get paid by
> companies to develop free software (which is actually a good thing). And
> their company can give them directions how to develop free software they
> are working on.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andrej
> 

I don't think it's that clear-cut (companies paying for libre software
devs == good). Moneyed interests in something *can* be good for both
sides, if fair business is conducted. Frankly, most businesses get it
wrong, as can be expected from a profit-oriented entity.

Paying devs to work on libre software and telling them what to work on,
while mostly normal practice in the profit-driven world, can create
effects (unintended or otherwise) that guide other software; especially
if a business is employing a developer working on pivotal, important
projects. A business's direction of that employee can create ripples
throughout the rest of the libre software ecosystem that other projects
may have to work around or be forced to depend on the corporate work to
continue existing. Innocent enough at first, sure. Projects become
obsolete or have to change their dependencies all the time. But if a
business is targeting specific parts of the stack, replacing it with
theirs, and urging others to depend on their new stack, it's blatantly
obvious that they're not interested in collaboration or playing fairly.
They want to own the stack and every mechanism in it. For what ends, I
have no clue. Possibly to peddle their stack as the *only* stack to
clients so they can rake in more business while the libre software world
gets stuck maintaining it. In short, it's a form of crowd-sourcing labor
that they wouldn't otherwise pay for. And the average programmer will
fall for it because it makes them feel important and, like the rest of
us, has this pesky need for a home, food, and enough cash to save away
for emergencies and/or retirement.

I agree with your opinion otherwise. It's not reasonable to expect
volunteers to be available, on-call, and alert to news 24-7; that's the
level of commitment you need to be a serious security worker, and nobody
has the spare funds to sit around and stay up to date on stuff without a
paycheck coming in.

I'm reluctant to point to them, but sports may have a good idea with
sponsorships. Some people in libre software could be sponsored, and some
companies could sponsor someone in a hands-off fashion, just letting the
developer do their thing while the dev does support, consulting, or
maybe patches for the company for their internal projects. That's a
relationship that could work, though just like any other monetization
scheme, it's prone to abuse from the money holder. Maybe CS curricula
should have Contract Law 101 or something to protect them from being
fleeced or manipulated.

The next best model is public sponsorship through platforms like Flattr,
Gittip, Patreon, and so on. It gives the developer full autonomy, but a
less dependable cash flow.

Giving talks and publishing books has been super successful for a few
people, but naturally takes up a lot of time and can be draining.

Business models aside, the only real fix for this is to get to a
post-industrial and post-labor world, where people aren't forced to work
to survive. There's no telling how long that will take, however, as
those with money naturally want to maintain their powerful position in
society. That change won't come peacefully, and unfortunately probably
not in our lifetimes.

</rant>
-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6


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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Andrej Rode]

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> A business's direction of that employee can create ripples
> throughout the rest of the libre software ecosystem that other projects
> may have to work around or be forced to depend on the corporate work to
> continue existing. Innocent enough at first, sure. Projects become
> obsolete or have to change their dependencies all the time. But if a
> business is targeting specific parts of the stack, replacing it with
> theirs, and urging others to depend on their new stack, it's blatantly
> obvious that they're not interested in collaboration or playing fairly.
> They want to own the stack and every mechanism in it. For what ends, I
> have no clue. Possibly to peddle their stack as the *only* stack to
> clients so they can rake in more business while the libre software world
> gets stuck maintaining it. 

That will happen if a project is understaffed or underfunded anyway and
maintainers are not able to turn down contributions. As someone pointed
out earlier AMDs patches to the Linux Kernel get rejected for various
reasons and it's a good thing. Other projects might not have the choice
to turn down big contributions. But if it's free software you always can
revert and go back if you please. That's the whole point of having free
software. If a company contributes something bad or just don't update or
revert the patch. Done. I see the point in companies and corporation
doing evil things we don't want in our software. But that's why we have
a the GPL license so we can look at the code and remove the parts we
thing that are bad. Maybe that's not happening enough, but that's
another topic.
As for proprietary software you usually can't do that. I don't know why
people feel forced to use something or a particular subset of features
in a piece of free software. It would be something entirely different
with a binary-only proprietary software.

> 
> I'm reluctant to point to them, but sports may have a good idea with
> sponsorships. Some people in libre software could be sponsored, and some
> companies could sponsor someone in a hands-off fashion, just letting the
> developer do their thing while the dev does support, consulting, or
> maybe patches for the company for their internal projects. 
<snip..>
> The next best model is public sponsorship through platforms like Flattr,
> Gittip, Patreon, and so on. It gives the developer full autonomy, but a
> less dependable cash flow.
>
> Giving talks and publishing books has been super successful for a few
> people, but naturally takes up a lot of time and can be draining.

I ditched these income  models because my point was that with free
software which has company-funded devs you can actually do something
yourself about bad code, spyware, bloatware in the codebase. But of
coures these are other forms of company independent income models which
have some popularity among devs for various free software projects.

Gonna stop it now. I made my points ;)


Cheers,
Andrej

P.S. free as in freedom


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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 1:20 PM, Heiko Baums <lists@baums-on-web.de> wrote:
>
> I didn't ask for a howto for installing Gentoo on a Pi, I asked for a
> howto for getting rid of systemd on recent versions of Arch Linux,
> Debian, Raspbian, Ubuntu, Fedora etc. You said it's possible and I'm
> not forced to use systemd, so I guess you know how and can explain it
> to me.

On Debian, you simply install "sysv-rc" and you're good to go because
it'll uninstall "systemd-sysv" and ensure that "/sbin/init" is
sysvinit's.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Alan McKinnon]

On 17/12/2016 16:35, Heiko Baums wrote:
> Am 17.12.2016 um 14:17 schrieb Neil Bothwick:
> 
>> I'm running the Debian 7 version of Raspbian on a number of Pis, all
>> without systemd. Yes, I am happy using systemd, but I can't be arsed
>> changing them when they continue to work perfectly well.
> 
> Then explain me how this is done. Btw., Debian's and Raspbian's software
> repositories are somewhat outdated. But that's a different Debian
> related subject.

It's not Neil's job to solve your problems. It's your job.

Neil isn't offering a solution to you, he's trying to guide your
thoughts in a direction where you can see solutions, so please stop
asking him (or anyone else) to find them for you.

Nobody ever guaranteed that you would have, or not have, systemd. It is
simply there and it is what it is. Software comes and goes, but you
always have the original promise - there is nothing in this world
stopping you from building software the way you want it. That's what
Stallman did - he didn't like the current landscape so did something
about it. You have that same right.

You have the right to use the code anyway you see fit. Red Hat has the
same right, and they are only answerable to their users. Nowhere does it
say Red Hat has to listen to you and write code for your benefit; also
nowhere does it say that Red Hat is permitted to stop you doing whatever
you want.

So now you know what your job is, get cracking.

Started coding yet?

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Corbin Bird]

On 12/17/2016 09:44 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 17/12/2016 16:35, Heiko Baums wrote:
>> Am 17.12.2016 um 14:17 schrieb Neil Bothwick:
>>
>>> I'm running the Debian 7 version of Raspbian on a number of Pis, all
>>> without systemd. Yes, I am happy using systemd, but I can't be arsed
>>> changing them when they continue to work perfectly well.
>> Then explain me how this is done. Btw., Debian's and Raspbian's software
>> repositories are somewhat outdated. But that's a different Debian
>> related subject.
> It's not Neil's job to solve your problems. It's your job.
>
> Neil isn't offering a solution to you, he's trying to guide your
> thoughts in a direction where you can see solutions, so please stop
> asking him (or anyone else) to find them for you.
>
> Nobody ever guaranteed that you would have, or not have, systemd. It is
> simply there and it is what it is. Software comes and goes, but you
> always have the original promise - there is nothing in this world
> stopping you from building software the way you want it. That's what
> Stallman did - he didn't like the current landscape so did something
> about it. You have that same right.
>
> You have the right to use the code anyway you see fit. Red Hat has the
> same right, and they are only answerable to their users. Nowhere does it
> say Red Hat has to listen to you and write code for your benefit; also
> nowhere does it say that Red Hat is permitted to stop you doing whatever
> you want.
>
> So now you know what your job is, get cracking.
>
> Started coding yet?
>

Slight change of topic .... Or is it back to the original topic?

FYI :
Using Palemoon compiled from the overlay,
a XonarDX sound card ( 192Khz Record/Playback, 7.1 sound capable, 8
channels ),
ALSA without either PulseAudio or apulse,
JACK not being used,
No .asoundrc being used,
I am able to watch videos and HEAR them in Palemoon.
Audio with Adobe Flash works as well.
( the caveat : mplayer is compiled / mplayer.conf adjusted / nsplugin
installed )


The trick .... seems to be reading the docs for ALSA in the bundled
kernel source code docs.

1 : Make corrections to "/etc/modprobe.d/alsa.conf"
2 : list ALL modules for ALSA/OSS in "/etc/conf.d/modules" for loading.
3 : If using "media-sound/timidity++" do the same for its modules.

I hope this information helps for those who want alternatives.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Walter Dnes]

  A note; the developers have stated in the Pale Moon forum that they're
working on getting rid of gstreamer, and having Pale Moon talk directly
to ffmpeg and libav.  This gets rid of one layer of middleware, and the
associated security problems. 

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Marc Joliet]

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On Saturday 17 December 2016 14:10:04 Walter Dnes wrote:
>   A note; the developers have stated in the Pale Moon forum that they're
> working on getting rid of gstreamer, and having Pale Moon talk directly
> to ffmpeg and libav.  This gets rid of one layer of middleware, and the
> associated security problems.

FWIW, that's most likely because Firefox did that a few releases ago (I unset 
the gstreamer USE flag with 44.0, and AFAIK gstreamer support was completely 
removed with 46.0).

Greetings
-- 
Marc Joliet
--
"People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who know we
don't" - Bjarne Stroustrup

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Walter Dnes]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 09:51:07PM +0100, Marc Joliet wrote
> On Saturday 17 December 2016 14:10:04 Walter Dnes wrote:
> >   A note; the developers have stated in the Pale Moon forum that they're
> > working on getting rid of gstreamer, and having Pale Moon talk directly
> > to ffmpeg and libav.  This gets rid of one layer of middleware, and the
> > associated security problems.
> 
> FWIW, that's most likely because Firefox did that a few releases
> ago (I unset the gstreamer USE flag with 44.0, and AFAIK gstreamer
> support was completely removed with 46.0).

  Not "because Firefox did that", but because it's a good idea.  Yes,
Firefox sometimes makes the right choice.  While Pale Moon does not
blindly follow Firefox (e.g. Australis), gstreamer is a pain and a
security problem.  First Pale Moon had to migrate from gstreamer 0.10.x
(inherited from Firefox code) to gstreamer 1.x.  And now they have to
blacklist certain gstreamer plugins.  Enough already.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Marc Joliet]

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On Saturday 17 December 2016 20:21:33 Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 09:51:07PM +0100, Marc Joliet wrote
> 
> > On Saturday 17 December 2016 14:10:04 Walter Dnes wrote:
> > >   A note; the developers have stated in the Pale Moon forum that they're
> > > 
> > > working on getting rid of gstreamer, and having Pale Moon talk directly
> > > to ffmpeg and libav.  This gets rid of one layer of middleware, and the
> > > associated security problems.
> > 
> > FWIW, that's most likely because Firefox did that a few releases
> > ago (I unset the gstreamer USE flag with 44.0, and AFAIK gstreamer
> > support was completely removed with 46.0).
> 
>   Not "because Firefox did that", but because it's a good idea.  Yes,
> Firefox sometimes makes the right choice.  While Pale Moon does not
> blindly follow Firefox (e.g. Australis), gstreamer is a pain and a
> security problem.  First Pale Moon had to migrate from gstreamer 0.10.x
> (inherited from Firefox code) to gstreamer 1.x.  And now they have to
> blacklist certain gstreamer plugins.  Enough already.

Sorry, I didn't mean that Pale moon "blindly follows" Firefox, I was primarily 
thinking of the progression upstream -> downstream (even as a fork, I expect 
that they'll want most of the low-level changes).

-- 
Marc Joliet
--
"People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who know we
don't" - Bjarne Stroustrup

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Daniel Campbell (zlg)]

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On December 17, 2016 11:10:04 AM PST, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
> A note; the developers have stated in the Pale Moon forum that they're
>working on getting rid of gstreamer, and having Pale Moon talk directly
>to ffmpeg and libav.  This gets rid of one layer of middleware, and the
>associated security problems.

Thanks for sharing more about Pale Moon. I thought it was Windows-exclusive and 64-bit oriented. Good to see it's cross-platform. Do you guys still write C++?
- --
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Walter Dnes]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 05:23:50PM -0800, Daniel Campbell (zlg) wrote
> 
> On December 17, 2016 11:10:04 AM PST, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
> > A note; the developers have stated in the Pale Moon forum that they're
> >working on getting rid of gstreamer, and having Pale Moon talk directly
> >to ffmpeg and libav.  This gets rid of one layer of middleware, and the
> >associated security problems.
> 
> Thanks for sharing more about Pale Moon. I thought it was Windows-
> exclusive and 64-bit oriented. Good to see it's cross-platform. Do you
> guys still write C++?

  It did start out Windows-only, but a developer came along who put in
the work to do a linux version.  I don't think there's anything in the
code that would restrict it 32-bit-only or 64-bit-only.  grepping
through the source, I see references to "CXXFLAGS" in *.configure and
*.m4 files, so I assume there is C++ code.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 17.12.2016 um 16:44 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> It's not Neil's job to solve your problems. It's your job.
> 
> Neil isn't offering a solution to you, he's trying to guide your
> thoughts in a direction where you can see solutions, so please stop
> asking him (or anyone else) to find them for you.

No he isn't offering a solution. He claims that nobody is forcing me to
using systemd. Well, Gentoo isn't indeed, but the other distros are.

I just asked him for a solution. I couldn't find one so far.

But I guess you are also one of those Poettering fanboys when I read
your arguments.

Heiko  Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Alan McKinnon]

On 17/12/2016 20:22, Heiko Baums wrote:
> Am 17.12.2016 um 16:44 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
>> It's not Neil's job to solve your problems. It's your job.
>>
>> Neil isn't offering a solution to you, he's trying to guide your
>> thoughts in a direction where you can see solutions, so please stop
>> asking him (or anyone else) to find them for you.
> 
> No he isn't offering a solution. He claims that nobody is forcing me to
> using systemd. Well, Gentoo isn't indeed, but the other distros are.
> 
> I just asked him for a solution. I couldn't find one so far.
> 
> But I guess you are also one of those Poettering fanboys when I read
> your arguments.

No, I'm not a Poetering fanboy, and you seem to be seeing the world in a
way that fits your biases.

None of my Gentoo machines have systemd. One of them has pulseaudio. My
work laptop runs Mint and that has systemd because ... that's what it
comes with.

All my Ubuntu 16.04 VMs have systemd (they ship like that), the Ubuntu
14.04 VMs have upstart.

But the VMS I like most are the FreeBSD ones; they run good
old-fashioned rc.

And you really need to go back and read the thread. Of course nobody
said Neil is offering you a solution; it is you that are demanding one
from people that never said they would. And of all the stupid places to
do it, the one place almost certain to not give you what you want - on a
public mailing list! Please, grow up and stop whining. It's getting tiresom.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 17.12.2016 um 23:53 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> No, I'm not a Poetering fanboy,

Ok, then I'm sorry.

> and you seem to be seeing the world in a
> way that fits your biases.

No, I don't.

> And you really need to go back and read the thread. Of course nobody
> said Neil is offering you a solution; it is you that are demanding one
> from people that never said they would.

I'm not demanding any solution. I'm just proving that it's wrong what
those Poettering fanboys let loose.

If this would be possible, then it should be easy for them to just
explain how this can be done or provide a link to a howto. They simply
can't because it is not possible to switch from systemd to another init
system, at least not for quite a lot of distros like Debian, Raspbian,
Ubuntu etc.

So I'm not demanding a solution, I just want proof. If they claim
something then I think they should proof it. That's all.

Btw., I've never seen that Poettering and his fanboys have proven
anything they claim so far.

Heiko Baums

[gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Grant Edwards]

On 2016-12-17, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> But the VMS I like most are the FreeBSD ones; they run good
> old-fashioned rc.

It's been a while since I ran VMS, but it had little very resemblance
to FreeBSD[1] and the init system was nothing like it the BSD one.  :)

[1] Unless you installed DECShell, and then it looked more like v7
than FreeBSD.

-- 
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Walter Dnes]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 11:58:45PM +0000, Grant Edwards wrote
> On 2016-12-17, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > But the VMS I like most are the FreeBSD ones; they run good
> > old-fashioned rc.
> 
> It's been a while since I ran VMS, but it had little very resemblance
> to FreeBSD[1] and the init system was nothing like it the BSD one.  :)
> 
> [1] Unless you installed DECShell, and then it looked more like v7
> than FreeBSD.

  I think he was referring to more than 1 VM (i.e. Virtual Machines),
not VMS the OS.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Alan McKinnon]

On 18/12/2016 01:58, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2016-12-17, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> But the VMS I like most are the FreeBSD ones; they run good
>> old-fashioned rc.
> 
> It's been a while since I ran VMS, but it had little very resemblance
> to FreeBSD[1] and the init system was nothing like it the BSD one.  :)
> 
> [1] Unless you installed DECShell, and then it looked more like v7
> than FreeBSD.
> 

See that's what happens when a poster forgets to do proof checking.

VMs, not VMS.

Good catch :-)

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 6:58 PM, Grant Edwards
<grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2016-12-17, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> But the VMS I like most are the FreeBSD ones; they run good
>> old-fashioned rc.
>
> It's been a while since I ran VMS, but it had little very resemblance
> to FreeBSD[1] and the init system was nothing like it the BSD one. :)

I read "VMS" as "VMs."

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Andrej Rode]

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> No he isn't offering a solution. He claims that nobody is forcing me to
> using systemd. Well, Gentoo isn't indeed, but the other distros are.
> 
> I just asked him for a solution. I couldn't find one so far.
> 
If you want to use Debian but want to ditch systemd people already
mentioned a couple of posts above how to do it. If you are blind in your
rage nobody can help you. I'd say you can for the latest debian with
sysvinit support and maintain your own sets of start and stop scripts
for new software. You will even have examples written for systemd. But
luckily for you somebody has already scarified time to do so. You could
also port OpenRC to Debian or any distribution which pleases you. Maybe
you even find funding to do so.
> But I guess you are also one of those Poettering fanboys when I read
> your arguments.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is a Poettering fanboy.

And why should a Gentoo based system draw more power than any other
Linux distro?

Cheers,
Andrej


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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 17.12.2016 um 23:57 schrieb Andrej Rode:
> And why should a Gentoo based system draw more power than any other
> Linux distro?

Because compiling takes quite a lot of time and power. Of course that
may depend on how and how often you use your computer. Proably doesn't
such a difference if your computer is running 24/7 anyway.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Andrej Rode]

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> Because compiling takes quite a lot of time and power. Of course that
> may depend on how and how often you use your computer. Proably doesn't
> such a difference if your computer is running 24/7 anyway.

And why are you compiling your software on a low-power embedded
platform? That's the point where you are doing it wrong. I'll bet power
consumption with Gentoo is even better because you don't have all
features enabled.

If you install OSes compile software for embedded stuff usually you
should compile your stuff somewhere else. Gentoo even provides a
framework for it with BINHOST stuff.

Cheers,
Andrej


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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 18.12.2016 um 05:44 schrieb Andrej Rode:
> And why are you compiling your software on a low-power embedded
> platform?

I don't and I never said that. But compiling is more power consuming and
takes quite a while, not only on embedded systems.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 15:35:38 +0100, Heiko Baums wrote:

> Am 17.12.2016 um 14:17 schrieb Neil Bothwick:
> 
> > I'm running the Debian 7 version of Raspbian on a number of Pis, all
> > without systemd. Yes, I am happy using systemd, but I can't be arsed
> > changing them when they continue to work perfectly well.  
> 
> Then explain me how this is done. Btw., Debian's and Raspbian's software
> repositories are somewhat outdated. But that's a different Debian
> related subject.

If you can't work that out for yourself, what are you doing running
Gentoo. I'm stating it can be done, I have neither the time nor the
inclination to document it.

> > Boot from a live CD, like Ubuntu, and read the journals. There's
> > always a solution that doesn't involve flaming.  
> 
> Why would I boot from a Live CD if I have a PC with an installed OS
> particularly just to be able to read some simple log files?
> 
> So, no that's not a reasonable solution.

I never claimed it was reasonable, you asked for a way to read them if
you don't have systemd installed and I suggested a way. It takes seconds
to boot a VM from an Ubuntu ISO. No, it's not elegant, but it does solve
the problem. I do think a standalone reader for systemd journals would
be a nice idea, but I'm not going to code it and I'm certainly not going
to demand t as a right.
 
> And that doesn't have anything to do with flaming. But that's typical
> for those Poettering fanboys, too, since the beginning. They ask for
> "technical" arguments. If "technical" arguments are given to them, then
> those arguments suddenly are no technical arguments. Then this is
> flaming. And Poettering and his fanboys just insult their critics, even
> in the official "technical" systemd documentation.

Technical arguments as opposed to to the ad hominem arguments you prefer?

I am not a fanboy, I like some of the features of systemd while others
really annoy me. I run a several systems without systemd simply because I
see no point in changing a working system.

But if you intend to dismiss anyone with a standpoint that does not
precisely align with yours as a fanboy, there is no point in continuing
this discussion. I am sorry that the pointers I gave do not meet your
exacting standards and promise to refrain from doing so again.

> > When I first tried systemd, I wasn't confident of my ability to work
> > with the journal, so I installed syslog-ng and had traditional log
> > files alongside the journal. In fact I ran it like that for quite
> > some because the log monitor I was using didn't work with the
> > journal.  
> 
> Yes, that's the solution. Install an old very well tested and useful
> system logger which does the job perfectly on its own alongside of a
> crappy system logger just to be able to read the binary log files again
> with simple system tools which come along with EVERY distro like cat,
> less, grep etc. And running two programs which have the same purpose in
> the background don't need more system resources then just running one of
> them, particularly on hardware like the Pi?
> 
> Did you and the other Poettering fanboys think about this logic? I guess
> not.

Excellent, adding distortion to the ad hominem insults. I was simply
pointing out that systemd does not preclude the use of an alternative
logger.
 
> > I never said it was easy.  
> 
> Should be easy.

Why? Because you demand so?


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Fragile. Do not turn umop ap1sdn!

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 19.12.2016 um 10:59 schrieb Neil Bothwick:
> If you can't work that out for yourself, what are you doing running
> Gentoo. I'm stating it can be done, I have neither the time nor the
> inclination to document it.

The question is not, if I can work this out myself or not. The question
is: Can you prove what you're claiming?

> I never claimed it was reasonable, you asked for a way to read them if
> you don't have systemd installed and I suggested a way.

I didn't ask. I've proven that those binary log files are crap, because
not they are not - say - compatible or interchangeable or whatever to
normal POSIX systems like the text files are.

The commands cat, less, grep are on every UNIX/Linux system. This
systemd logreader (I've forgotten its name) is not.

> But if you intend to dismiss anyone with a standpoint that does not
> precisely align with yours as a fanboy, there is no point in continuing
> this discussion.

It's just that you gave the same silly arguments every Poettering fanboy
gives in such discussions.

> Excellent, adding distortion to the ad hominem insults. I was simply
> pointing out that systemd does not preclude the use of an alternative
> logger.

Just twist it as you need it.

> Why? Because you demand so?

Because the Poettering fanboys and you always say so.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161217-00:55-0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 02:16:27PM -0500, Rich Freeman wrote
> > On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Miroslav Rovis <miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> wrote:
> >
> > > It's been discussed over and over again. Lots of people are firm in
> > > their understanding that Lennart is an actor by and for the big
> > > business. Me too.
> > 
> > Well, he is a Red Hat employee.  Nobody really debates that.
> 
>   Maybe it's not intentional spyware malice, but rather that home users
> are being jerked around while Redhat re-writes linux as a corporate OS.
> 
It's as much created-by-chance spyware, as accidentally-happened spyware,
IMO, as the google android/iphone/windoze phone and others are
eavesdropper devices by chance and by accident. I.e.: not in the least.

While lots of people involved are not (plain) malicious, there is, from
analysis of the big picture, no escaping the conclusion that the
one-ring-cravers needed it, and so they planned it, just like the
aforementioned eavesdropper devices.

Even though, longer term, very very few people knew, or envisaged, say
20-30 years ago, that this Total Surveillance Age was coming.
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 12:55 AM, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 02:16:27PM -0500, Rich Freeman wrote
>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Miroslav Rovis <miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> wrote:


>>> It's been discussed over and over again. Lots of people are firm in
>>> their understanding that Lennart is an actor by and for the big
>>> business. Me too.
>>
>> Well, he is a Red Hat employee. Nobody really debates that.
>
> Maybe it's not intentional spyware malice, but rather that home users
> are being jerked around while Redhat re-writes linux as a corporate OS.

In what way are home users being jerked around? How many care about
the guts of their system?

I (unfortunately) manage four linux laptops for my parents and two
friends. They just want to boot thei machines and use them in the same
way that they use their iPhones and iPads - and they couldn't care
less about anything less.

There are of course people who want to change and customize their
setups (like you) and for whom the advent of and domination by
systemd's a PitA. Please don't generalize.


> Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0. Now the name
> varies in each machine depending on the motherboard layout; oogabooga11?
> foobar42? It may be static, but you don't know what it'll be, without
> first booting the machine. In a truly Orwellian twist, this "feature"
> is referred to as "Predictable" Network Interface Names. It only makes
> things easier for corporate machines acting as gateways/routers, with
> multiple ports. Again, the average home user is being jerked around for
> a corporate agenda.

Do "regular" home users know the name of the NIC that they're using?!

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Walter Dnes]

On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 02:39:58AM -0500, Tom H wrote
> On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 12:55 AM, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
> 
> > Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
> > ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0. Now the name
> > varies in each machine depending on the motherboard layout; oogabooga11?
> > foobar42? It may be static, but you don't know what it'll be, without
> > first booting the machine. In a truly Orwellian twist, this "feature"
> > is referred to as "Predictable" Network Interface Names. It only makes
> > things easier for corporate machines acting as gateways/routers, with
> > multiple ports. Again, the average home user is being jerked around for
> > a corporate agenda.
> 
> Do "regular" home users know the name of the NIC that they're using?!

  I meant the "regular" home users of linux, e.g. people in this forum.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

"Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> writes:

>   Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.

Since 10 years or so, the default is two ports.

> Now the name varies in each machine depending on the motherboard
> layout; oogabooga11? foobar42?  It may be static, but you don't know
> what it'll be, without first booting the machine.  In a truly
> Orwellian twist, this "feature" is referred to as "Predictable"
> Network Interface Names.  It only makes things easier for corporate
> machines acting as gateways/routers, with multiple ports.  Again, the
> average home user is being jerked around for a corporate agenda.

Perhaps the hidden agenda was to make the names indistinguishable and
unrecognisable, forcing everyone to use copy and paste --- after at
least double-checking which port is which --- to eliminate human and
typing errors in order to get more predictable results.

Otherwise, how would using unrecognisable names for network ports make
anything easier for corporate machines?

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Daniel Frey]

On 12/19/2016 10:15 AM, lee wrote:
> "Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> writes:
> 
>>   Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
>> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.
> 
> Since 10 years or so, the default is two ports.

Not in any of the computers I've built. Generally only high end or
workstation/server boards have two ports.

i.e. not what the typical home user would buy.

> 
>> Now the name varies in each machine depending on the motherboard
>> layout; oogabooga11? foobar42?  It may be static, but you don't know
>> what it'll be, without first booting the machine.  In a truly
>> Orwellian twist, this "feature" is referred to as "Predictable"
>> Network Interface Names.  It only makes things easier for corporate
>> machines acting as gateways/routers, with multiple ports.  Again, the
>> average home user is being jerked around for a corporate agenda.
> 
> Perhaps the hidden agenda was to make the names indistinguishable and
> unrecognisable, forcing everyone to use copy and paste --- after at
> least double-checking which port is which --- to eliminate human and
> typing errors in order to get more predictable results.
> 
> Otherwise, how would using unrecognisable names for network ports make
> anything easier for corporate machines?
> 

It is even more frustrating that these so-called predictable network
names actually can change on a reboot, it's happened to me more than
once when multiple network cards are detected in a different order.

Dan

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> writes:

> On 12/19/2016 10:15 AM, lee wrote:
>> "Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> writes:
>> 
>>>   Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
>>> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.
>> 
>> Since 10 years or so, the default is two ports.
>
> Not in any of the computers I've built. Generally only high end or
> workstation/server boards have two ports.
>
> i.e. not what the typical home user would buy.

It is not reasonable to assume that a "typical home user" would want a
computer with a crappy board to run Linux on it (or for anything
else). If they are that cheap, they're better off buying a used one.
When they are sufficiently clueless to want something like that, what
does it matter what the network interfaces are called.

>>> Now the name varies in each machine depending on the motherboard
>>> layout; oogabooga11? foobar42?  It may be static, but you don't know
>>> what it'll be, without first booting the machine.  In a truly
>>> Orwellian twist, this "feature" is referred to as "Predictable"
>>> Network Interface Names.  It only makes things easier for corporate
>>> machines acting as gateways/routers, with multiple ports.  Again, the
>>> average home user is being jerked around for a corporate agenda.
>> 
>> Perhaps the hidden agenda was to make the names indistinguishable and
>> unrecognisable, forcing everyone to use copy and paste --- after at
>> least double-checking which port is which --- to eliminate human and
>> typing errors in order to get more predictable results.
>> 
>> Otherwise, how would using unrecognisable names for network ports make
>> anything easier for corporate machines?
>> 
>
> It is even more frustrating that these so-called predictable network
> names actually can change on a reboot, it's happened to me more than
> once when multiple network cards are detected in a different order.

I haven't had that happen with the unrecognisable names.  Aren't they
supposed to prevent things like that?

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Andrej Rode]

>> It is even more frustrating that these so-called predictable network
>> names actually can change on a reboot, it's happened to me more than
>> once when multiple network cards are detected in a different order.

Then you might found a bug? With predictable network names the name of
your device depends on the PCIe slot/address it is in. If you change
positions in the board your names should change, not on reboot.

And you might believe it or not, running Linux on servers is much more
popular than running Linux on your home desktop. Thus I'd guess things
tend to be made easier for people with more than one network card.
Certainly you don't want rely on random device enumeration order on
reboot if you run a webserver with multiple network devices.

If you want to disable this on hosts running systemd read [0].

Cheers,
Andrej

[0]
https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames/

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Andrej Rode <mail@andrejro.de> writes:

>>> It is even more frustrating that these so-called predictable network
>>> names actually can change on a reboot, it's happened to me more than
>>> once when multiple network cards are detected in a different order.
>
> Then you might found a bug? With predictable network names the name of
> your device depends on the PCIe slot/address it is in. If you change
> positions in the board your names should change, not on reboot.

It wasn't me who said that.

> And you might believe it or not, running Linux on servers is much more
> popular than running Linux on your home desktop. Thus I'd guess things
> tend to be made easier for people with more than one network card.
> Certainly you don't want rely on random device enumeration order on
> reboot if you run a webserver with multiple network devices.

The point is that replacing recognisable names with unrecognisable ones
doesn't make things easier, regardless of how many network ports you
have.

Or can you explain how unrecognisable names make things easier?

> If you want to disable this on hosts running systemd read [0].

I'm not using systemd.

> Cheers,
> Andrej
>
> [0]
> https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames/

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Andrej Rode]

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Why
> Or can you explain how unrecognisable names make things easier?

Yeah they make life easier. From your talk you never had a problem with
eth<0,10> switching names after boot. Everyone who had them appreciates
predictable network interfaces.

If you don't like them you can disable them in udev (I actually was
wrong about only systemd).
And actually I couldn't care less how my devices are named. Because
ranting about them on a mailing list already takes more time and
characters than typing `ip a`

But yeah, I stop feeding the trolls right here :)

cheers,
Andrej


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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Kai Peter]

On 2016-12-20 05:23, Andrej Rode wrote:
> Why
>> Or can you explain how unrecognisable names make things easier?
> 
> Yeah they make life easier.
Not in any case. Otherwise it is a name only.

 From your talk you never had a problem with
> eth<0,10> switching names after boot. Everyone who had them appreciates
> predictable network interfaces.

Predictable names are not limited to network if's. Just the (first?) 
point where most users comes in touch with it. And claiming about 
changes which seems to break some human logic.

-- 
Sent with eQmail-1.10-dev

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 20.12.2016 um 05:23 schrieb Andrej Rode:
> Yeah they make life easier. From your talk you never had a problem with
> eth<0,10> switching names after boot. Everyone who had them appreciates
> predictable network interfaces.

Everyone who had them could learn how to write simple udev rules to get
fixed eth<0,10> names after every boot. No systemd and no "predictable"
names necessary.

Nevertheless I'm still wondering what's so predictable at those
incomprehensible, cryptic device names anyway. And I don't want to know
that.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Kai Peter]

On 2016-12-20 17:21, Heiko Baums wrote:
> Am 20.12.2016 um 05:23 schrieb Andrej Rode:
>> Yeah they make life easier. From your talk you never had a problem 
>> with
>> eth<0,10> switching names after boot. Everyone who had them 
>> appreciates
>> predictable network interfaces.
> 
> Everyone who had them could learn how to write simple udev rules to get
> fixed eth<0,10> names after every boot. No systemd and no "predictable"
> names necessary.
right
> 
> Nevertheless I'm still wondering what's so predictable at those
> incomprehensible, cryptic device names anyway. And I don't want to know
> that.
Maybe there are different opinions, but what is cryptic on - as a 
typical one - enp3s0?:
e - ethernet
n - network
p - pci (port) ...
3 - ... 3
s - slot ...
0 - ... 0

Just an example. The real mess with systemd is that it violates the good 
ol' Unix culture. Especially by "capturing" udev. Thanks to Gentoo for 
eudev!!!

> 
> Heiko Baums

-- 
Sent with eQmail-1.10-dev

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 20.12.2016 um 18:38 schrieb Kai Peter:
> Maybe there are different opinions, but what is cryptic on - as a
> typical one - enp3s0?:
> e - ethernet
> n - network
> p - pci (port) ...
> 3 - ... 3
> s - slot ...
> 0 - ... 0

Think about that yourself again and compare it to - eth0:

eth - ethernet
0 - 1st card

I don't think I need to explain which of both is a lot more complicated
and cryptic.

> Just an example. The real mess with systemd is that it violates the good
> ol' Unix culture. Especially by "capturing" udev. Thanks to Gentoo for
> eudev!!!

That's also true but not the only problem with systemd.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Alan McKinnon]

On 20/12/2016 19:50, Heiko Baums wrote:
> Am 20.12.2016 um 18:38 schrieb Kai Peter:
>> Maybe there are different opinions, but what is cryptic on - as a
>> typical one - enp3s0?:
>> e - ethernet
>> n - network
>> p - pci (port) ...
>> 3 - ... 3
>> s - slot ...
>> 0 - ... 0
> 
> Think about that yourself again and compare it to - eth0:
> 
> eth - ethernet
> 0 - 1st card

No. This is incorrect.

eth0 is the first card found by software, and not always the one you
think it is.

Off the top of my head, a few examples of how this can be a problem:

- pull and reseat nic cards in a server, junior flunky who does it
forgets which card went where and puts them back in the wrong slots
- an update to PCI code does discovery ever so sightly differently
- plug in a USB wireless or wired nic, can you absolutely *guarantee*
that any kernel will *always* find a PCI nic before a USB one?
- virtualized servers, where I can (and very much do) add, remove and
edit virtual nics all the time. Now which one is the first?


So yes, eth0 is far easier for humans to remember, it's also a fragile
solution. On a desktop with only one nic all the above problems never
happen. But Linux desktops and single-nic servers are not the target
market for Linux, and hasn't been for a very long time. The real target
is virtual machines, big iron, and embedded devices plus Android.

Oddly enough, my 200+ FreeBSD machines all tend to use a naming
convention like enp3s0? for nics and disks. Doesn't cause any issues in
that world.

In all these threads you participate in recently, I'm not seeing any
actual real facts from you, or specifics. All I see is you howling
(louder than Poetering!) on the other end of an email address about how
you don't like changes that are happening.

Actually, I think you don't have much clue about the real world and what
it takes to run real fleets of machines.

So my advice to you is to put up, or shut up.


> 
> I don't think I need to explain which of both is a lot more complicated
> and cryptic.
> 
>> Just an example. The real mess with systemd is that it violates the good
>> ol' Unix culture. Especially by "capturing" udev. Thanks to Gentoo for
>> eudev!!!
> 
> That's also true but not the only problem with systemd.
> 
> Heiko Baums
> 


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 20.12.2016 um 19:08 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> No. This is incorrect.

Yes. This is correct.

> eth0 is the first card found by software, and not always the one you
> think it is.

But you already heard of udev rules? I guess I mentioned them already.
They are not so hard to write and they only need to be written once.

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Alan McKinnon]

On 20/12/2016 20:22, Heiko Baums wrote:
> Am 20.12.2016 um 19:08 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
>> No. This is incorrect.
> 
> Yes. This is correct.
> 
>> eth0 is the first card found by software, and not always the one you
>> think it is.
> 
> But you already heard of udev rules? I guess I mentioned them already.
> They are not so hard to write and they only need to be written once.
> 
> Heiko Baums
> 


<plonk>

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Heiko Baums]

Am 20.12.2016 um 19:28 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> <plonk>

Now that you're running out of arguments...

Heiko Baums

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 19:22:44 +0100, Heiko Baums wrote:

> > eth0 is the first card found by software, and not always the one you
> > think it is.  
> 
> But you already heard of udev rules? I guess I mentioned them already.
> They are not so hard to write and they only need to be written once.

It's too late by then, if eth0 and eth1 already exist, you cannot switch
them with udev rules - as anyone who had worked with dual NICs would have
discovered.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I wonder how much deeper would the ocean be without sponges.

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> writes:

> On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 19:22:44 +0100, Heiko Baums wrote:
>
>> > eth0 is the first card found by software, and not always the one you
>> > think it is.  
>> 
>> But you already heard of udev rules? I guess I mentioned them already.
>> They are not so hard to write and they only need to be written once.
>
> It's too late by then, if eth0 and eth1 already exist, you cannot switch
> them with udev rules - as anyone who had worked with dual NICs would have
> discovered.

Can you switch them when they have unrecognisable names?

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 23:11:08 +0100, lee wrote:

> >> But you already heard of udev rules? I guess I mentioned them
> >> already. They are not so hard to write and they only need to be
> >> written once.  
> >
> > It's too late by then, if eth0 and eth1 already exist, you cannot
> > switch them with udev rules - as anyone who had worked with dual NICs
> > would have discovered.  
> 
> Can you switch them when they have unrecognisable names?

You can't switch any two names because the udev rules are run singly, so
at one point you will be trying to rename an interface with a name that
is already in use.

This has nothing to do with how easily you are able to grok the name
scheme and everything to do with consistency. Unfortunately, there are
still situations, especially with USB NICs, where this can fail, but for
PCI NICs you are guaranteed that the names will always stay the same and
you are not suddenly in the position of the two sides of your firewall
switching places.

But of you don't like it,, just do what the elog message tells you and it
won't be a problem, it's a default setting not an enforced behaviour.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

"There are some ideas so idiotic that only an intellectual could believe
them" George Orwell

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[karl]

Neil Bothwick:
> On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 23:11:08 +0100, lee wrote:
> > >> But you already heard of udev rules? I guess I mentioned them
> > >> already. They are not so hard to write and they only need to be
> > >> written once.  
> > > It's too late by then, if eth0 and eth1 already exist, you cannot
> > > switch them with udev rules - as anyone who had worked with dual NICs
> > > would have discovered.  
> > Can you switch them when they have unrecognisable names?
> You can't switch any two names because the udev rules are run singly, so
> at one point you will be trying to rename an interface with a name that
> is already in use.
...

Not everyone runs udev, and you don't need udev to change the eth name,
a few other choises are presented here:

 https://ivi.fnwi.uva.nl/sne/air//wiki/LogicalInterfaceNames/

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Aspö Data
Lilla Aspö 148
S-742 94 Östhammar
Sweden
+46 173 140 57

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> writes:

> On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 23:11:08 +0100, lee wrote:
>
>> >> But you already heard of udev rules? I guess I mentioned them
>> >> already. They are not so hard to write and they only need to be
>> >> written once.  
>> >
>> > It's too late by then, if eth0 and eth1 already exist, you cannot
>> > switch them with udev rules - as anyone who had worked with dual NICs
>> > would have discovered.  
>> 
>> Can you switch them when they have unrecognisable names?
>
> You can't switch any two names because the udev rules are run singly, so
> at one point you will be trying to rename an interface with a name that
> is already in use.

I mean more like renaming them on the fly --- or by having a
configuration file with key:value pairs like 'enp69s0f1:eth3' --- or
perhaps triples like 'enp69s0f1:eth3:"DMZ Interface"'.

That way, you could have a recognisable name (or several names) for
every unrecognisable one and assume that "eth3" or "foo" or however you
want to call it is the same interface just as much as you would with
unrecognisable names --- plus the advantage that when you ever need to
change an interface, you only need to edit one small file rather than
various configurations files having the unrecognisable name(s) in them.
And you would also have descriptions.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 22:48:29 +0100, lee wrote:

> > You can't switch any two names because the udev rules are run singly,
> > so at one point you will be trying to rename an interface with a name
> > that is already in use.  
> 
> I mean more like renaming them on the fly --- or by having a
> configuration file with key:value pairs like 'enp69s0f1:eth3' --- or
> perhaps triples like 'enp69s0f1:eth3:"DMZ Interface"'.

In that case you may as well leave the unique names in place and set up
recognisable aliases.

> That way, you could have a recognisable name (or several names) for
> every unrecognisable one and assume that "eth3" or "foo" or however you
> want to call it is the same interface just as much as you would with
> unrecognisable names --- plus the advantage that when you ever need to
> change an interface, you only need to edit one small file rather than
> various configurations files having the unrecognisable name(s) in them.

There are no config files to edit with the predictable names, the names
are created from the physical location of the port. That's why they are
called predictable, unless you move the NIC to a different PCI slot, it
will always have the same name, no matter what other hardware you add or
remove. Yes, the names are cumbersome, but they have to be like that to
guarantee their uniqueness. How often you you have to type interface
names anyway, and how many of those are in a shell with tab completion
that takes care of it for you?

The names are ugly, but that's about their only sin.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Head: (n.) the part of a disk drive which detects sectors and decides
which of the two possible values to return: 'lose a turn' or 'bankrupt.'

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> writes:

> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 22:48:29 +0100, lee wrote:
>
>> > You can't switch any two names because the udev rules are run singly,
>> > so at one point you will be trying to rename an interface with a name
>> > that is already in use.  
>> 
>> I mean more like renaming them on the fly --- or by having a
>> configuration file with key:value pairs like 'enp69s0f1:eth3' --- or
>> perhaps triples like 'enp69s0f1:eth3:"DMZ Interface"'.
>
> In that case you may as well leave the unique names in place and set up
> recognisable aliases.

Sure, you can call the names you pick aliases.  Can that be done?  Not
as in "going back to the old way", but as described.

>> That way, you could have a recognisable name (or several names) for
>> every unrecognisable one and assume that "eth3" or "foo" or however you
>> want to call it is the same interface just as much as you would with
>> unrecognisable names --- plus the advantage that when you ever need to
>> change an interface, you only need to edit one small file rather than
>> various configurations files having the unrecognisable name(s) in them.
>
> There are no config files to edit with the predictable names, the
> names are created from the physical location of the port.  That's why
> they are called predictable,

I only know what the names are when I can look them up when the computer
is running.  I don't call that "predictable".

They were much more predictable before because I could be reasonably
sure that each of the ports would be called 'ethN', starting with N = 0,
unless I changed a card for a different one after an udev rule had
already been created.  Now I can only assume that they will be called
something.

> unless you move the NIC to a different PCI slot, it will always have
> the same name, no matter what other hardware you add or remove. Yes,
> the names are cumbersome, but they have to be like that to guarantee
> their uniqueness.

You don't need to defend the unrecognisable names.  The names used for
referring to network ports don't need to be like that.

The perceived advantage lies in being able to refer to network ports in
a more reliable way, and I don't see how using unrecognisable names
instead of recognisable ones would make anything easier.

It would have made things easier if the problem had been solved by
giving them recognisable names (or aliases) by default --- or even if
the default names (aliases) were the same as the unrecognisable names
--- and allowing to easily configure the names (aliases) actually used
to refer to the ports.

Being able to refer to things in more reliable ways improves the quality
of the software.  Using unrecognisable names for things reduces the
quality.

This is like you're defending a type of new pliers.  The old ones didn't
hold stuff as securely as the new ones do, but the new ones require that
you use both hands to use them.  The new pliers can provide an advantage
for instances in which you do have to hold something very securely ---
and in which another tool, like a vice, might be more appropriate anyway
--- but for most of the time, they hinder you doing your work because
they're so unwieldy.  Of course, you call the new pliers "more secure
pliers" rather than "unwieldy pliers", because that makes them easier to
sell.

Alas, "improvements" just like this seem to become more and more common,
replacing actual improvements: The king gets new garments not seldom
times, yet twice a day, and those who cry deceit are called not children
but trolls.

But who knows, perhaps it is now possible to easily, on the fly, name
the network ports through a neat configuration file.  I'm merely asking
if there is because I don't know and would find that very useful.

> How often you you have to type interface names anyway, and how many of
> those are in a shell with tab completion that takes care of it for
> you?

None of them are, and I don't type the names.  They require copy and
paste, or very careful and tedious typing after looking them up.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 04:15:50 +0100, lee wrote:

> > There are no config files to edit with the predictable names, the
> > names are created from the physical location of the port.  That's why
> > they are called predictable,  
> 
> I only know what the names are when I can look them up when the computer
> is running.  I don't call that "predictable".

If they are constructed according to specific rules, they are
predictable, by definition.

> They were much more predictable before because I could be reasonably
> sure that each of the ports would be called 'ethN', starting with N = 0,
"Reasonably sure" is not predictable. A lot of this stuff is designed to
make automated management easier, so editing rules or config files is
undesirable. It is more about being able to automatically provision and
configure new systems, whether hardware or virtual.

> unless I changed a card for a different one after an udev rule had
> already been created.

and being able to make changes without messing with the rest of your
system. I stand by my previous analogy of disk devices nodes vs UUIDs.
One is readable the other is safe. Yes, you can use filesystem labels,
which can be both, but that requires intervention, just like your udev
rules. That doesn't make either approach wrong, just suited to different
purposes.

> > unless you move the NIC to a different PCI slot, it will always have
> > the same name, no matter what other hardware you add or remove. Yes,
> > the names are cumbersome, but they have to be like that to guarantee
> > their uniqueness.  
> 
> You don't need to defend the unrecognisable names.  The names used for
> referring to network ports don't need to be like that.

No they don't. It is merely one solution to the problem, and the names
are recognisable, Alan posted the key earlier. They are complex and may
look cryptic until you understand them, but so is English.
 
> The perceived advantage lies in being able to refer to network ports in
> a more reliable way, and I don't see how using unrecognisable names
> instead of recognisable ones would make anything easier.

See above re automation. It doesn't really matter whether you see the
need or not. If you don't have the need, don't use it, they are an
option for those who do want them.
 
> It would have made things easier if the problem had been solved by
> giving them recognisable names (or aliases) by default --- or even if
> the default names (aliases) were the same as the unrecognisable names
> --- and allowing to easily configure the names (aliases) actually used
> to refer to the ports.

That's a good point, and surely doable with udev rules, making the whole
argument moot. I haven't investigated because I don't have the need, but
I would be interested to hear what you discover.
 and not that unrecognisable once you understand the systax.

> Being able to refer to things in more reliable ways improves the quality
> of the software.  Using unrecognisable names for things reduces the
> quality.

They are reliable, unlike your "reasonably sure" approach, 


> This is like you're defending a type of new pliers.

I'm not so much defending them and expressing an opinion. I can see the
benefits and the drawbacks. They are an option, albeit one that is turned
on by default (but since when have Gentoo users ever been bothered about
upstream defaults?). Portage even gives you explicit instuctions on how
to permanently disable them with a single command, although I generally
use the net.ifnames=0 kernel option instead on single NIC machines, where
the feature is pointless.

> But who knows, perhaps it is now possible to easily, on the fly, name
> the network ports through a neat configuration file.  I'm merely asking
> if there is because I don't know and would find that very useful.

Can't ifrename do what you want?

> > How often you you have to type interface names anyway, and how many of
> > those are in a shell with tab completion that takes care of it for
> > you?  
> 
> None of them are, and I don't type the names.  They require copy and
> paste, or very careful and tedious typing after looking them up.

Well, if you're scripting them, you only need to do it once per
interface, surely? That might be less work that setting up ifrename, but
use whatever works for you, your choices include, but are not restricted
to, and in no particular order.

Learn how the predictable names work
Disable the feature entirely and hope the eth0 names work as expected
Use udev rules
Use ifrename
Some combination of the above.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

...and that is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped.

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 3:56 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 04:15:50 +0100, lee wrote:
>>
>> The perceived advantage lies in being able to refer to network ports
>> in a more reliable way, and I don't see how using unrecognisable
>> names instead of recognisable ones would make anything easier.
>
> See above re automation. It doesn't really matter whether you see the
> need or not. If you don't have the need, don't use it, they are an
> option for those who do want them.

All of this whining about predictable NIC names would be more or less
OK if there wasn't an easy way to override them in
"/{lib,etc}/systemd/network/" (even on a non-systemd system, see [1])
or in "/etc/udev/rules.d/"!

[1] There's no need to learn/use the udev rules syntax. I use the
following in "/etc/systemd/network/" on a Debian 8 system with
sysvinit-as-pid1:

[Match]
MACAddress=can't_be_bothered_to_look_it_up
[Link]
Name=en0

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 04:52:41 -0500, Tom H wrote:

> All of this whining about predictable NIC names would be more or less
> OK if there wasn't an easy way to override them in
> "/{lib,etc}/systemd/network/" (even on a non-systemd system, see [1])
> or in "/etc/udev/rules.d/"!

You forgot /etc/default/grub ;-)

It's a pity this information is so well hidden in the elog message you
get when you install the software!


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Yes, I've heard of "decaf." What's your point?

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 5:14 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 04:52:41 -0500, Tom H wrote:
>
>> All of this whining about predictable NIC names would be more or less
>> OK if there wasn't an easy way to override them in
>> "/{lib,etc}/systemd/network/" (even on a non-systemd system, see [1])
>> or in "/etc/udev/rules.d/"!
>
> You forgot /etc/default/grub ;-)

Indeed :)

But I was going with the idea of using udev to rename NICs rather than
reverting to kernel names.

I hope that you're ready to duck because someone might say "Linux is
about choice" while reminding you that grub isn't the only bootloader
:)

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 05:27:03 -0500, Tom H wrote:

> > You forgot /etc/default/grub ;-)  
> 
> Indeed :)
> 
> But I was going with the idea of using udev to rename NICs rather than
> reverting to kernel names.
> 
> I hope that you're ready to duck because someone might say "Linux is
> about choice" while reminding you that grub isn't the only bootloader
> :)

I don't use grub on UEFI systems, but I use the systemd bootloader, so I
thought I'd keep quiet about that ;-)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

WITLAG: The delay between delivery and comprehension of a joke.

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 7:38 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I don't use grub on UEFI systems, but I use the systemd bootloader, so I
> thought I'd keep quiet about that ;-)

I'm also a heretic who uses the systemd bootloader no matter what pid1
is in charge.

It's the best thing that the systemd developers have produced!

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 02:26:05 -0500, Tom H wrote:

> > I don't use grub on UEFI systems, but I use the systemd bootloader,
> > so I thought I'd keep quiet about that ;-)  
> 
> I'm also a heretic who uses the systemd bootloader no matter what pid1
> is in charge.
> 
> It's the best thing that the systemd developers have produced!

Except they didn't produce it. They assimilated gummiboot, which I was
already using, into the systemd collective!


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Are Cheerios really doughnut seeds?

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Jorge Almeida]

On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 12:39 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 02:26:05 -0500, Tom H wrote:
>

>>
>> It's the best thing that the systemd developers have produced!
>
> Except they didn't produce it. They assimilated gummiboot, which I was
> already using, into the systemd collective!
>
Wasn't gummiboot the brain child of a certain systemd developer who
got kicked off the kernel due to attitude issues?


And keep those taglines coming.

Jorge Almeida

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 3:48 AM, Jorge Almeida <jjalmeida@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 12:39 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 02:26:05 -0500, Tom H wrote:
>>>
>>> It's the best thing that the systemd developers have produced!
>>
>> Except they didn't produce it. They assimilated gummiboot, which I was
>> already using, into the systemd collective!
>
> Wasn't gummiboot the brain child of a certain systemd developer who
> got kicked off the kernel due to attitude issues?

AFAICT, Kay's last kernel submission was one year before Linus had
"that" rant about merging his code.

I'd also have been surprised if Kay had submitted something a few
months later and Linus had rejected it ; especially since Linus gave
himself an out by saying something like "until his attitude changes"
or something along these lines.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 3:39 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 02:26:05 -0500, Tom H wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't use grub on UEFI systems, but I use the systemd bootloader,
>>> so I thought I'd keep quiet about that ;-)
>>
>> I'm also a heretic who uses the systemd bootloader no matter what pid1
>> is in charge.
>>
>> It's the best thing that the systemd developers have produced!
>
> Except they didn't produce it. They assimilated gummiboot, which I was
> already using, into the systemd collective!

Wasn't Kay Sievers one of the two gummiboot developers? (Along with
Harald <something> of dracut fame.)

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 10:50:53 -0500, Tom H wrote:

> >> I'm also a heretic who uses the systemd bootloader no matter what
> >> pid1 is in charge.
> >>
> >> It's the best thing that the systemd developers have produced!  
> >
> > Except they didn't produce it. They assimilated gummiboot, which I was
> > already using, into the systemd collective!  
> 
> Wasn't Kay Sievers one of the two gummiboot developers? (Along with
> Harald <something> of dracut fame.)

I had been unaware of that. But it was developed away from systemd
originally - maybe here was a conspiracy to add it to the systemd
collective all along ;-)

I was using gummiboot before I tried systemd.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Marriage is a relationship in which one person
is always right and the other is a husband

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> writes:

> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 3:56 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 04:15:50 +0100, lee wrote:
>>>
>>> The perceived advantage lies in being able to refer to network ports
>>> in a more reliable way, and I don't see how using unrecognisable
>>> names instead of recognisable ones would make anything easier.
>>
>> See above re automation. It doesn't really matter whether you see the
>> need or not. If you don't have the need, don't use it, they are an
>> option for those who do want them.
>
> All of this whining about predictable NIC names would be more or less
> OK if there wasn't an easy way to override them in
> "/{lib,etc}/systemd/network/" (even on a non-systemd system, see [1])
> or in "/etc/udev/rules.d/"!
>
> [1] There's no need to learn/use the udev rules syntax. I use the
> following in "/etc/systemd/network/" on a Debian 8 system with
> sysvinit-as-pid1:
>
> [Match]
> MACAddress=can't_be_bothered_to_look_it_up
> [Link]
> Name=en0

Thanks!

What happens when you replace the card with another one that has a
different MAC?  Shouldn't an assignment like this rather go by the
unrecognisable name?  I'd find that more consistent.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 8:57 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
> Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> writes:


>> [1] There's no need to learn/use the udev rules syntax. I use the
>> following in "/etc/systemd/network/" on a Debian 8 system with
>> sysvinit-as-pid1:
>>
>> [Match]
>> MACAddress=can't_be_bothered_to_look_it_up
>> [Link]
>> Name=en0
>
> Thanks!

You're welcome.


> What happens when you replace the card with another one that has a
> different MAC? Shouldn't an assignment like this rather go by the
> unrecognisable name? I'd find that more consistent.

AFAIK, you have three possibilities.

1) If you're renaming a NIC via its MAC address, you have to edit the
config file thatlinks the NIC's names and its MAC address.

2) If you're using udev's predictable names, the NIC'll have the same
(more or less complex) name if you use the same slot.

3) If you're using the kernel names, you have no guarantee that ethX
will be assigned to the same NIC at every bot.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> writes:

> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 8:57 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>> Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>> [1] There's no need to learn/use the udev rules syntax. I use the
>>> following in "/etc/systemd/network/" on a Debian 8 system with
>>> sysvinit-as-pid1:
>>>
>>> [Match]
>>> MACAddress=can't_be_bothered_to_look_it_up
>>> [Link]
>>> Name=en0
>>
>> Thanks!
>
> You're welcome.
>
>
>> What happens when you replace the card with another one that has a
>> different MAC? Shouldn't an assignment like this rather go by the
>> unrecognisable name? I'd find that more consistent.
>
> AFAIK, you have three possibilities.
>
> 1) If you're renaming a NIC via its MAC address, you have to edit the
> config file thatlinks the NIC's names and its MAC address.
>
> 2) If you're using udev's predictable names, the NIC'll have the same
> (more or less complex) name if you use the same slot.
>
> 3) If you're using the kernel names, you have no guarantee that ethX
> will be assigned to the same NIC at every bot.

So there's no good option because names may change unless you make and
maintain an assignment.  I wonder why that isn't the default ...

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 21:01:22 +0100, lee wrote:

> > AFAIK, you have three possibilities.
> >
> > 1) If you're renaming a NIC via its MAC address, you have to edit the
> > config file thatlinks the NIC's names and its MAC address.
> >
> > 2) If you're using udev's predictable names, the NIC'll have the same
> > (more or less complex) name if you use the same slot.
> >
> > 3) If you're using the kernel names, you have no guarantee that ethX
> > will be assigned to the same NIC at every bot.  
> 
> So there's no good option because names may change unless you make and
> maintain an assignment.  I wonder why that isn't the default ...

I would imagine because it cannot be used without some initial
configuration. The default provides the greatest reliability out of the
box, at the expense of less readable (which is not the same as
unrecognisable, a value judgement you are imposing on the names) names.

There is nothing wrong with wanting things to work as you do, but it
requires input to do so. It you have to start editing files to make it
work properly, there is little point in making it the default.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

GOTO: (n.) an efficient and general way of controlling a program, much
despised by academics and others whose brains have been ruined by
overexposure to Pascal.

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> writes:

> On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 21:01:22 +0100, lee wrote:
>
>> > AFAIK, you have three possibilities.
>> >
>> > 1) If you're renaming a NIC via its MAC address, you have to edit the
>> > config file thatlinks the NIC's names and its MAC address.
>> >
>> > 2) If you're using udev's predictable names, the NIC'll have the same
>> > (more or less complex) name if you use the same slot.
>> >
>> > 3) If you're using the kernel names, you have no guarantee that ethX
>> > will be assigned to the same NIC at every bot.  
>> 
>> So there's no good option because names may change unless you make and
>> maintain an assignment.  I wonder why that isn't the default ...
>
> I would imagine because it cannot be used without some initial
> configuration. The default provides the greatest reliability out of the
> box, at the expense of less readable (which is not the same as
> unrecognisable, a value judgement you are imposing on the names) names.

I call them unrecognisable because they are hard to recognise, as in
hard to read and impossible to remember.  I find that annoying.  I can
call them "annoying names" if you prefer that :)

> There is nothing wrong with wanting things to work as you do, but it
> requires input to do so. It you have to start editing files to make it
> work properly, there is little point in making it the default.

Right, and it could work without editing files manually.  A
configuration file assigning editable names to the annoying names could
be created automatically and filled by assigning the name an interface
already has to it (because when it has a name, the name is known, which
is easier than trying to make up all possible names in advance).  Then
only if you wanted you would edit the configuration file to assign the
name(s) of your choosing, and if you don't want to do that, you simply
get the names you get now.  There would be no change to how the names
are now, only an additional option.

That would also have the advantage that when the annoying name of an
interface changes, you can choose to either adjust all configuration
files in which you have specified a particular interface or simply
adjust the one configuration file that assigns the names.

I actually wonder why they didn't virtualise the names.  It makes too
much sense for not to do it, and you could do likewise with other
devices (especially disks).

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 19:53:47 +0100, lee wrote:

> > I would imagine because it cannot be used without some initial
> > configuration. The default provides the greatest reliability out of
> > the box, at the expense of less readable (which is not the same as
> > unrecognisable, a value judgement you are imposing on the names)
> > names.  
> 
> I call them unrecognisable because they are hard to recognise, as in
> hard to read and impossible to remember.  I find that annoying.  I can
> call them "annoying names" if you prefer that :)

I do, or "difficult to remember" or "cryptic", but they are not
unrecognisable - except to those that wish them to be.
 
> > There is nothing wrong with wanting things to work as you do, but it
> > requires input to do so. It you have to start editing files to make it
> > work properly, there is little point in making it the default.  
> 
> Right, and it could work without editing files manually.  A
> configuration file assigning editable names to the annoying names could
> be created automatically and filled by assigning the name an interface
> already has to it (because when it has a name, the name is known, which
> is easier than trying to make up all possible names in advance).  Then
> only if you wanted you would edit the configuration file to assign the
> name(s) of your choosing, and if you don't want to do that, you simply
> get the names you get now.  There would be no change to how the names
> are now, only an additional option.
> 
> That would also have the advantage that when the annoying name of an
> interface changes, you can choose to either adjust all configuration
> files in which you have specified a particular interface or simply
> adjust the one configuration file that assigns the names.
> 
> I actually wonder why they didn't virtualise the names.  It makes too
> much sense for not to do it, and you could do likewise with other
> devices (especially disks).

That's a reasonable approach, and you could have the ebuild set it up
with a USE flag. All it takes is for someone that cares enough about it
to do something.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I have seen the truth, and it makes no sense.

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 1:53 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
> Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> writes:
>>
>> There is nothing wrong with wanting things to work as you do, but it
>> requires input to do so. It you have to start editing files to make
>> it work properly, there is little point in making it the default.
>
> Right, and it could work without editing files manually. A
> configuration file assigning editable names to the annoying names
> could be created automatically and filled by assigning the name an
> interface already has to it (because when it has a name, the name is
> known, which is easier than trying to make up all possible names in
> advance). Then only if you wanted you would edit the configuration
> file to assign the name(s) of your choosing, and if you don't want to
> do that, you simply get the names you get now. There would be no
> change to how the names are now, only an additional option.
>
> That would also have the advantage that when the annoying name of an
> interface changes, you can choose to either adjust all configuration
> files in which you have specified a particular interface or simply
> adjust the one configuration file that assigns the names.

There are two ways to ensure that you always have the kernel's names:

1) Add "net.ifnames=0" to the kernel cmdline

2) Override "NamePolicy=..." in "/lib/systemd/network/99-default.link"
with "NamePolicy=kernel" in "/etc/systemd/network/99-default.link".

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Miroslav Rovis]

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On 161229-05:13-0500, Tom H wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 1:53 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
> > Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> writes:
> >>
> There are two ways to ensure that you always have the kernel's names:
> 
> 1) Add "net.ifnames=0" to the kernel cmdline
I use that all the time.

Of course, I don't use the below, no poetterware in my machine:
> 2) Override "NamePolicy=..." in "/lib/systemd/network/99-default.link"
> with "NamePolicy=kernel" in "/etc/systemd/network/99-default.link".
> 

But I respect if anybody else wants it, let them have it, just, allow
free speech, as you, _mostly_, do, id est, to tell people unintrusively
what that SystemDisaster is...

And, I've been following this discussion, and firmly on the side which
wants to keep Gentoo in the beautiful Unix tradition, but...

I was wondering, since to get a reply about the original question is
pretty difficult
(
not all being open and available to know about it? Mozilla itself
actually uncertain about alsa/pulse in its future? whatever, cannot
spend anymore time on it, I moved, see below...
)
, and maybe 3 percent of the text in the thread was on topic
(
which is still:
from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0
)
and the rest was about other matters...

I was wondering why hasn't anybody finally changed that subject line. Some of
the emails of the thread are fine information, but like this, they are
completely misplaced on principle which is, the principle: the subject
line should be what the emails in a thread are about... And in this
thread they are not well over 90% of the emails!

(
I changed the subject line
when I departed, and the threat of imposition of Pulseaudio to Linux
users of Firefox has resulted in Pale Moon having a happy users and a
supporter, Mozilla, you should not have insisted on that stupid
impositions!...

My split thread subject lines are:
Reading the (SSL) traffic with Pale Moon
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/gentoo/user/320799
( Message-ID: <20161218055009.GA11155@g0n.xdwgrp> )
and
Pale Moon Air-Gapped portage EAPI 6 Install
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/gentoo/user/321074
( Message-ID: <20161223043823.GA9835@g0n.xdwgrp> )
)

Thanks again to our developers who keep to the matchless Unix tradition,
and allow such great choice in Gentoo (also to the other, poetterware
side, as in choice, if you will)!

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 8:15 PM, Miroslav Rovis
<miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> wrote:
>
> Thanks again to our developers who keep to the matchless Unix tradition,
> and allow such great choice in Gentoo (also to the other, poetterware
> side, as in choice, if you will)!
>

Well, the intent is to allow as much choice either way, though
sometimes upstream constraints get in the way of that.  As long as
somebody is willing to do the work necessary to keep a choice
reasonably viable we're not going to turn it away.  While we differ in
our preferences this is what ultimately unites us the most, IMO.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 8:15 PM, Miroslav Rovis
<miro.rovis@croatiafidelis.hr> wrote:
> On 161229-05:13-0500, Tom H wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 1:53 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>> > Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> writes:
>>>>
>> There are two ways to ensure that you always have the kernel's names:
>>
>> 1) Add "net.ifnames=0" to the kernel cmdline
>
> I use that all the time.
>
> Of course, I don't use the below, no poetterware in my machine:
>
>> 2) Override "NamePolicy=..." in "/lib/systemd/network/99-default.link"
>> with "NamePolicy=kernel" in "/etc/systemd/network/99-default.link".
>
> But I respect if anybody else wants it, let them have it, just, allow
> free speech, as you, _mostly_, do, id est, to tell people unintrusively
> what that SystemDisaster is...

It's too bad that the eudev maintainers didn't see fit to keep the
".link" units (they could've moved them to "/{etc,lib}/udev/network/"
if having "systemd" in a path's a no-no") because they make renaming a
NIC simpler.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 3:01 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
> Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> writes:
>> AFAIK, you have three possibilities.
>>
>> 1) If you're renaming a NIC via its MAC address, you have to edit the
>> config file thatlinks the NIC's names and its MAC address.
>>
>> 2) If you're using udev's predictable names, the NIC'll have the same
>> (more or less complex) name if you use the same slot.
>>
>> 3) If you're using the kernel names, you have no guarantee that ethX
>> will be assigned to the same NIC at every bot.
>
> So there's no good option because names may change unless you make and
> maintain an assignment.  I wonder why that isn't the default ...

Because udev upstream chose to default to a setup without having to
edit config files for NIC names.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> writes:

> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 04:15:50 +0100, lee wrote:
>
>> > There are no config files to edit with the predictable names, the
>> > names are created from the physical location of the port.  That's why
>> > they are called predictable,  
>> 
>> I only know what the names are when I can look them up when the computer
>> is running.  I don't call that "predictable".
>
> If they are constructed according to specific rules, they are
> predictable, by definition.

You're overlooking that you need to know exactly, in advance, what the
rules are applied to, and all the rules, for having a chance that your
prediction turns out to be correct.  Provided you know all that, you can
predict the universe, assuming that everything always goes according to
rules.  You can not prove that it does and only disprove that it does
when you find a case in which it doesn't.  So what's your definition and
your predictions worth?

>> They were much more predictable before because I could be reasonably
>> sure that each of the ports would be called 'ethN', starting with N = 0,
> "Reasonably sure" is not predictable.

It's still better than something entirely unpredictable.

Show me that the names are predictable by writing them down, then
grabbing an arbitrary computer and plugging in a network card the
port(s) of which will then have the names you wrote down.

> A lot of this stuff is designed to
> make automated management easier, so editing rules or config files is
> undesirable. It is more about being able to automatically provision and
> configure new systems, whether hardware or virtual.

How does it help with that?  Wouldn't it help even more if you could
just give them the names you wanted them to have?

Like if you have N machines with an interface each you want to do
something with, the only thing you'd have to do is make sure that this
interface gets the right name assigned.

With unrecognisable names, the interface can still have a different name
on each machine.  What's the advantage of that?

>> unless I changed a card for a different one after an udev rule had
>> already been created.
>
> and being able to make changes without messing with the rest of your
> system. I stand by my previous analogy of disk devices nodes vs UUIDs.

Are they predictable?

> One is readable the other is safe. Yes, you can use filesystem labels,
> which can be both, but that requires intervention, just like your udev
> rules. That doesn't make either approach wrong, just suited to different
> purposes.

And I would find it much better if network ports had recognisable names
without intervention.

>> > unless you move the NIC to a different PCI slot, it will always have
>> > the same name, no matter what other hardware you add or remove. Yes,
>> > the names are cumbersome, but they have to be like that to guarantee
>> > their uniqueness.  
>> 
>> You don't need to defend the unrecognisable names.  The names used for
>> referring to network ports don't need to be like that.
>
> No they don't. It is merely one solution to the problem, and the names
> are recognisable, Alan posted the key earlier. They are complex and may
> look cryptic until you understand them, but so is English.

They don't become any more recognisable by knowing the rules.  They
simply remain a combination of letters and numbers which is difficult to
recognise.

>> The perceived advantage lies in being able to refer to network ports in
>> a more reliable way, and I don't see how using unrecognisable names
>> instead of recognisable ones would make anything easier.
>
> See above re automation. It doesn't really matter whether you see the
> need or not. If you don't have the need, don't use it, they are an
> option for those who do want them.

Unfortunately, that option has been made the default.

>> It would have made things easier if the problem had been solved by
>> giving them recognisable names (or aliases) by default --- or even if
>> the default names (aliases) were the same as the unrecognisable names
>> --- and allowing to easily configure the names (aliases) actually used
>> to refer to the ports.
>
> That's a good point, and surely doable with udev rules, making the whole
> argument moot. I haven't investigated because I don't have the need, but
> I would be interested to hear what you discover.
>  and not that unrecognisable once you understand the systax.

I haven't investigated either because I figured there isn't much point
in it because if I wanted recognisable names, I would have to put some
extra work into every machine, which isn't a good option.  In the long
run, it might be less time consuming to use recognisable names, but who
knows if there isn't going to be yet another change, defeating a way I
might have found to get such names back.

>> Being able to refer to things in more reliable ways improves the quality
>> of the software.  Using unrecognisable names for things reduces the
>> quality.
>
> They are reliable, unlike your "reasonably sure" approach, 

I never said they aren't.  I don't see them as more reliable, either,
not for any practical purposes.  Technically, they might be more
reliable, but it doesn't matter to me.

>> This is like you're defending a type of new pliers.
>
> I'm not so much defending them and expressing an opinion. I can see the
> benefits and the drawbacks. They are an option, albeit one that is turned
> on by default (but since when have Gentoo users ever been bothered about
> upstream defaults?). Portage even gives you explicit instuctions on how
> to permanently disable them with a single command, although I generally
> use the net.ifnames=0 kernel option instead on single NIC machines, where
> the feature is pointless.

I didn't see portage or anything else give me any instructions or
warnings about this.  The names just suddenly changed, and that screwed
things up.

>> But who knows, perhaps it is now possible to easily, on the fly, name
>> the network ports through a neat configuration file.  I'm merely asking
>> if there is because I don't know and would find that very useful.
>
> Can't ifrename do what you want?

Dunno, I haven't heard of it before, it doesn't seem to be installed,
and eix shows no hits for it.

>> > How often you you have to type interface names anyway, and how many of
>> > those are in a shell with tab completion that takes care of it for
>> > you?  
>> 
>> None of them are, and I don't type the names.  They require copy and
>> paste, or very careful and tedious typing after looking them up.
>
> Well, if you're scripting them, you only need to do it once per
> interface, surely? That might be less work that setting up ifrename, but
> use whatever works for you, your choices include, but are not restricted
> to, and in no particular order.

The issue comes up every now and then when I need to do something with
network interfaces.  The unrecognisable names waste my time because they
are unrecognisable, and that's really all they do for me.

> Learn how the predictable names work
> Disable the feature entirely and hope the eth0 names work as expected
> Use udev rules
> Use ifrename
> Some combination of the above.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Alan McKinnon]

On 24/12/2016 03:52, lee wrote:
> Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> writes:
> 
>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 04:15:50 +0100, lee wrote:
>>
>>>> There are no config files to edit with the predictable names, the
>>>> names are created from the physical location of the port.  That's why
>>>> they are called predictable,  
>>>
>>> I only know what the names are when I can look them up when the computer
>>> is running.  I don't call that "predictable".
>>
>> If they are constructed according to specific rules, they are
>> predictable, by definition.
> 
> You're overlooking that you need to know exactly, in advance, what the
> rules are applied to, and all the rules, for having a chance that your
> prediction turns out to be correct.  Provided you know all that, you can
> predict the universe, assuming that everything always goes according to
> rules.  You can not prove that it does and only disprove that it does
> when you find a case in which it doesn't.  So what's your definition and
> your predictions worth?

You keep mis-defining what "predictable" means in this context. It does
not mean, in the style of Newton, that you will always know everything
about it. Neither is it the same meaning as prediction in the context of
a scientific theory.

"prediction" here simply means that the interface name is guaranteed to
be the same as it was on last boot, and the somewhat random nature of
kernael names (ethX, wlanX) is not in play.

It does NOT mean that you are guaranteed to know exactly what an
interface will be called before you boot it for the first time.

Rename "predictable names" to "already known names" if it makes you feel
better. There's nothing wrong with this definition of predictable, as it
satisfies it's own rules and is consistent within itself. It is not
complete though but we already know that from Godel.

As long as you keep trying to apply the wrong meaning of predictable to
this situation, you will keep typing mails like this one I'm replying to
where you argue about something that is not even there. You also can't
realistically argue about what "predictable" means because like almost
all human concepts it is not a singularity, rather it is a spectrum
where it means what the author says it means.

And the quote for that meaning has already been posted in this thread
somewhere.





> 
>>> They were much more predictable before because I could be reasonably
>>> sure that each of the ports would be called 'ethN', starting with N = 0,
>> "Reasonably sure" is not predictable.
> 
> It's still better than something entirely unpredictable.
> 
> Show me that the names are predictable by writing them down, then
> grabbing an arbitrary computer and plugging in a network card the
> port(s) of which will then have the names you wrote down.
> 
>> A lot of this stuff is designed to
>> make automated management easier, so editing rules or config files is
>> undesirable. It is more about being able to automatically provision and
>> configure new systems, whether hardware or virtual.
> 
> How does it help with that?  Wouldn't it help even more if you could
> just give them the names you wanted them to have?
> 
> Like if you have N machines with an interface each you want to do
> something with, the only thing you'd have to do is make sure that this
> interface gets the right name assigned.
> 
> With unrecognisable names, the interface can still have a different name
> on each machine.  What's the advantage of that?
> 
>>> unless I changed a card for a different one after an udev rule had
>>> already been created.
>>
>> and being able to make changes without messing with the rest of your
>> system. I stand by my previous analogy of disk devices nodes vs UUIDs.
> 
> Are they predictable?
> 
>> One is readable the other is safe. Yes, you can use filesystem labels,
>> which can be both, but that requires intervention, just like your udev
>> rules. That doesn't make either approach wrong, just suited to different
>> purposes.
> 
> And I would find it much better if network ports had recognisable names
> without intervention.
> 
>>>> unless you move the NIC to a different PCI slot, it will always have
>>>> the same name, no matter what other hardware you add or remove. Yes,
>>>> the names are cumbersome, but they have to be like that to guarantee
>>>> their uniqueness.  
>>>
>>> You don't need to defend the unrecognisable names.  The names used for
>>> referring to network ports don't need to be like that.
>>
>> No they don't. It is merely one solution to the problem, and the names
>> are recognisable, Alan posted the key earlier. They are complex and may
>> look cryptic until you understand them, but so is English.
> 
> They don't become any more recognisable by knowing the rules.  They
> simply remain a combination of letters and numbers which is difficult to
> recognise.
> 
>>> The perceived advantage lies in being able to refer to network ports in
>>> a more reliable way, and I don't see how using unrecognisable names
>>> instead of recognisable ones would make anything easier.
>>
>> See above re automation. It doesn't really matter whether you see the
>> need or not. If you don't have the need, don't use it, they are an
>> option for those who do want them.
> 
> Unfortunately, that option has been made the default.
> 
>>> It would have made things easier if the problem had been solved by
>>> giving them recognisable names (or aliases) by default --- or even if
>>> the default names (aliases) were the same as the unrecognisable names
>>> --- and allowing to easily configure the names (aliases) actually used
>>> to refer to the ports.
>>
>> That's a good point, and surely doable with udev rules, making the whole
>> argument moot. I haven't investigated because I don't have the need, but
>> I would be interested to hear what you discover.
>>  and not that unrecognisable once you understand the systax.
> 
> I haven't investigated either because I figured there isn't much point
> in it because if I wanted recognisable names, I would have to put some
> extra work into every machine, which isn't a good option.  In the long
> run, it might be less time consuming to use recognisable names, but who
> knows if there isn't going to be yet another change, defeating a way I
> might have found to get such names back.
> 
>>> Being able to refer to things in more reliable ways improves the quality
>>> of the software.  Using unrecognisable names for things reduces the
>>> quality.
>>
>> They are reliable, unlike your "reasonably sure" approach, 
> 
> I never said they aren't.  I don't see them as more reliable, either,
> not for any practical purposes.  Technically, they might be more
> reliable, but it doesn't matter to me.
> 
>>> This is like you're defending a type of new pliers.
>>
>> I'm not so much defending them and expressing an opinion. I can see the
>> benefits and the drawbacks. They are an option, albeit one that is turned
>> on by default (but since when have Gentoo users ever been bothered about
>> upstream defaults?). Portage even gives you explicit instuctions on how
>> to permanently disable them with a single command, although I generally
>> use the net.ifnames=0 kernel option instead on single NIC machines, where
>> the feature is pointless.
> 
> I didn't see portage or anything else give me any instructions or
> warnings about this.  The names just suddenly changed, and that screwed
> things up.
> 
>>> But who knows, perhaps it is now possible to easily, on the fly, name
>>> the network ports through a neat configuration file.  I'm merely asking
>>> if there is because I don't know and would find that very useful.
>>
>> Can't ifrename do what you want?
> 
> Dunno, I haven't heard of it before, it doesn't seem to be installed,
> and eix shows no hits for it.
> 
>>>> How often you you have to type interface names anyway, and how many of
>>>> those are in a shell with tab completion that takes care of it for
>>>> you?  
>>>
>>> None of them are, and I don't type the names.  They require copy and
>>> paste, or very careful and tedious typing after looking them up.
>>
>> Well, if you're scripting them, you only need to do it once per
>> interface, surely? That might be less work that setting up ifrename, but
>> use whatever works for you, your choices include, but are not restricted
>> to, and in no particular order.
> 
> The issue comes up every now and then when I need to do something with
> network interfaces.  The unrecognisable names waste my time because they
> are unrecognisable, and that's really all they do for me.
> 
>> Learn how the predictable names work
>> Disable the feature entirely and hope the eth0 names work as expected
>> Use udev rules
>> Use ifrename
>> Some combination of the above.
> 


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> writes:

> On 24/12/2016 03:52, lee wrote:
>> Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> writes:
>> 
>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 04:15:50 +0100, lee wrote:
>>>
>>>>> There are no config files to edit with the predictable names, the
>>>>> names are created from the physical location of the port.  That's why
>>>>> they are called predictable,  
>>>>
>>>> I only know what the names are when I can look them up when the computer
>>>> is running.  I don't call that "predictable".
>>>
>>> If they are constructed according to specific rules, they are
>>> predictable, by definition.
>> 
>> You're overlooking that you need to know exactly, in advance, what the
>> rules are applied to, and all the rules, for having a chance that your
>> prediction turns out to be correct.  Provided you know all that, you can
>> predict the universe, assuming that everything always goes according to
>> rules.  You can not prove that it does and only disprove that it does
>> when you find a case in which it doesn't.  So what's your definition and
>> your predictions worth?
>
> You keep mis-defining what "predictable" means in this context. It does
> not mean, in the style of Newton, that you will always know everything
> about it. Neither is it the same meaning as prediction in the context of
> a scientific theory.
>
> "prediction" here simply means that the interface name is guaranteed to
> be the same as it was on last boot, and the somewhat random nature of
> kernael names (ethX, wlanX) is not in play.
>
> It does NOT mean that you are guaranteed to know exactly what an
> interface will be called before you boot it for the first time.
>
> Rename "predictable names" to "already known names" if it makes you feel
> better. There's nothing wrong with this definition of predictable, as it
> satisfies it's own rules and is consistent within itself. It is not
> complete though but we already know that from Godel.
>
> As long as you keep trying to apply the wrong meaning of predictable to
> this situation, you will keep typing mails like this one I'm replying to
> where you argue about something that is not even there. You also can't
> realistically argue about what "predictable" means because like almost
> all human concepts it is not a singularity, rather it is a spectrum
> where it means what the author says it means.
>
> And the quote for that meaning has already been posted in this thread
> somewhere.

Seriously?

Predicting something means to tell something in advance.  You are trying
to defend a wrong usage of language here.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1534 bytes --]

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 02:52:54 +0100, lee wrote:

> >> I only know what the names are when I can look them up when the
> >> computer is running.  I don't call that "predictable".  

That's because you are using a different definition of predictable from
that intended.

> >
> > If they are constructed according to specific rules, they are
> > predictable, by definition.  
> 
> You're overlooking that you need to know exactly, in advance, what the
> rules are applied to, and all the rules, for having a chance that your
> prediction turns out to be correct.

So how do you write udev rules to rename ports without knowing the
specifics of the hardware?

How do you know which port will be eth0 and which will be eth1 the first
time you boot if you use no renaming?

I really don't see your objection to a setting that, while a default, is
trivial to change, even before you boot the installed distro for the
first time. It is clearly useful to others, otherwise they would not have
invested time and effort in implementing. If, in doing so, they had ruled
out all alternatives, you would have a point. Those alternative are still
there, so all you are doing is whining.

No one has taken away your choice to do things how you see fit, why do
you want to do the same for others.

The choices are there, why not just use the one you want and leave others
to use what they want.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I stayed up all night playing poker with tarot cards. I got a full
house and four people died.

[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> writes:

> On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 02:52:54 +0100, lee wrote:
>
>> >> I only know what the names are when I can look them up when the
>> >> computer is running.  I don't call that "predictable".  
>
> That's because you are using a different definition of predictable from
> that intended.

I'm not using a definition but understanding.  If you are about
definitions, then you should invent a new word by using the intended
definition and call the unrecognisable names by your new word.

>> > If they are constructed according to specific rules, they are
>> > predictable, by definition.  
>> 
>> You're overlooking that you need to know exactly, in advance, what the
>> rules are applied to, and all the rules, for having a chance that your
>> prediction turns out to be correct.
>
> So how do you write udev rules to rename ports without knowing the
> specifics of the hardware?

I don't.

> How do you know which port will be eth0 and which will be eth1 the first
> time you boot if you use no renaming?

I don't, I only know that they will be called eth0 and eth1.  With
unrecognisable names, I don't know anything.

> I really don't see your objection to a setting that, while a default, is
> trivial to change, even before you boot the installed distro for the
> first time. It is clearly useful to others, otherwise they would not have
> invested time and effort in implementing. If, in doing so, they had ruled
> out all alternatives, you would have a point. Those alternative are still
> there, so all you are doing is whining.

That's the usual method of calling something "whining" when someone has
run out of arguments and/or doesn't understand what someone else is
saying.

> No one has taken away your choice to do things how you see fit, why do
> you want to do the same for others.
>
> The choices are there, why not just use the one you want and leave others
> to use what they want.

Where did I say that anyone must use particular names for their network
interfaces?

It's the other way round in that the unrecognisable names have been
forced upon everyone because they were made the default.  You can either
use them or change them, and both requires additional work.  Why wasn't
the extra work forced upon those who want to use the unrecognisable
names?

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 8:52 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>
> I didn't see portage or anything else give me any instructions or
> warnings about this.  The names just suddenly changed, and that screwed
> things up.
>

https://www.gentoo.org/support/news-items/2013-03-29-udev-upgrade.html

This shows up in eselect news list (and so on), and portage will tell
you when you have unread news items.  Note that it only shows up if
you have <udev-201 installed, but all news is in that repository.

Generally you want to read those BEFORE you go installing packages,
since it may pertain to a package you're about to update.

The original news item was less detailed, and IMO probably a bit
easier to read.  Additional stuff was added to it later from the looks
of it.  It isn't hard to read per-se, but there is a lot more going on
in it.

If you want to disable predictable network names then that is covered in #4.

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> writes:

> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 8:52 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>>
>> I didn't see portage or anything else give me any instructions or
>> warnings about this.  The names just suddenly changed, and that screwed
>> things up.
>>
>
> https://www.gentoo.org/support/news-items/2013-03-29-udev-upgrade.html
>
> This shows up in eselect news list (and so on), and portage will tell

I never use that because I find it very awkward.  Why doesn't portage
just send me the news by email?

> you when you have unread news items.  Note that it only shows up if
> you have <udev-201 installed, but all news is in that repository.
>
> Generally you want to read those BEFORE you go installing packages,
> since it may pertain to a package you're about to update.

Updating usually affects over 200 packages.  What's a good way to read
the news in advance?


> The original news item was less detailed, and IMO probably a bit
> easier to read.  Additional stuff was added to it later from the looks
> of it.  It isn't hard to read per-se, but there is a lot more going on
> in it.
>
> If you want to disable predictable network names then that is covered in #4.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Alan McKinnon]

On 26/12/2016 20:24, lee wrote:
> Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> writes:
> 
>> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 8:52 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>>>
>>> I didn't see portage or anything else give me any instructions or
>>> warnings about this.  The names just suddenly changed, and that screwed
>>> things up.
>>>
>>
>> https://www.gentoo.org/support/news-items/2013-03-29-udev-upgrade.html
>>
>> This shows up in eselect news list (and so on), and portage will tell
> 
> I never use that because I find it very awkward.  Why doesn't portage
> just send me the news by email?

It will if you set it up that way. It's not a default because portage
doesn't know your email address (unless you want to deliver mail locally
to root's mbox)

>> you when you have unread news items.  Note that it only shows up if
>> you have <udev-201 installed, but all news is in that repository.
>>
>> Generally you want to read those BEFORE you go installing packages,
>> since it may pertain to a package you're about to update.
> 
> Updating usually affects over 200 packages.  What's a good way to read
> the news in advance?

I think you are conflating news with something else, perhaps elogs. Rich
means to run "eselect news list".


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> writes:

> On 26/12/2016 20:24, lee wrote:
>> Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> writes:
>> 
>>> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 8:52 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I didn't see portage or anything else give me any instructions or
>>>> warnings about this.  The names just suddenly changed, and that screwed
>>>> things up.
>>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.gentoo.org/support/news-items/2013-03-29-udev-upgrade.html
>>>
>>> This shows up in eselect news list (and so on), and portage will tell
>> 
>> I never use that because I find it very awkward.  Why doesn't portage
>> just send me the news by email?
>
> It will if you set it up that way.

Oh I should do that then.

> It's not a default because portage
> doesn't know your email address (unless you want to deliver mail locally
> to root's mbox)

It could simply ask me.  Now I need to figure out how to make it send
mails.

>>> you when you have unread news items.  Note that it only shows up if
>>> you have <udev-201 installed, but all news is in that repository.
>>>
>>> Generally you want to read those BEFORE you go installing packages,
>>> since it may pertain to a package you're about to update.
>> 
>> Updating usually affects over 200 packages.  What's a good way to read
>> the news in advance?
>
> I think you are conflating news with something else, perhaps elogs. Rich
> means to run "eselect news list".

Yes, and that doesn't show me news before I sync, or does it?

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 5:47 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>
> Yes, and that doesn't show me news before I sync, or does it?
>

Correct.

The order to do this in is:

Sync
Read news.
Apply updates.

Syncing doesn't affect anything other than /usr/portage (or wherever
you're keeping it).

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> writes:

> On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 5:47 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, and that doesn't show me news before I sync, or does it?
>>
>
> Correct.
>
> The order to do this in is:
>
> Sync
> Read news.
> Apply updates.

sounds reasonable

> Syncing doesn't affect anything other than /usr/portage (or wherever
> you're keeping it).

Well, kinda?  When you emerge something after syncing, a newer version
might be picked than otherwise?

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 558 bytes --]

On Tuesday 27 Dec 2016 08:21:53 lee wrote:
> Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> writes:
> > On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 5:47 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
> >> Yes, and that doesn't show me news before I sync, or does it?
> > 
> > Correct.
> > 
> > The order to do this in is:
> > 
> > Sync
> > Read news.
> > Apply updates.
> 
> sounds reasonable

Even more reasonable:

 eselect news read new

will only come up with the latest as yet unread news, rather than a long list 
which could have accumulated over the years.

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tuesday 27 Dec 2016 08:21:53 lee wrote:
>> Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> writes:
>> > On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 5:47 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>> >> Yes, and that doesn't show me news before I sync, or does it?
>> > 
>> > Correct.
>> > 
>> > The order to do this in is:
>> > 
>> > Sync
>> > Read news.
>> > Apply updates.
>> 
>> sounds reasonable
>
> Even more reasonable:
>
>  eselect news read new
>
> will only come up with the latest as yet unread news, rather than a long list 
> which could have accumulated over the years.

It seems to be clearing out the list automatically.

[1] says the mailer module of eselect was removed.  Is there a better
way to read them than with eselect?


[1]: https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/eselect.git/plain/NEWS

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Mick]

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On Tuesday 27 Dec 2016 20:21:19 lee wrote:
> Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> writes:
> > On Tuesday 27 Dec 2016 08:21:53 lee wrote:
> >> Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> writes:
> >> > On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 5:47 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
> >> >> Yes, and that doesn't show me news before I sync, or does it?
> >> > 
> >> > Correct.
> >> > 
> >> > The order to do this in is:
> >> > 
> >> > Sync
> >> > Read news.
> >> > Apply updates.
> >> 
> >> sounds reasonable
> > 
> > Even more reasonable:
> >  eselect news read new
> > 
> > will only come up with the latest as yet unread news, rather than a long
> > list which could have accumulated over the years.
> 
> It seems to be clearing out the list automatically.
> 
> [1] says the mailer module of eselect was removed.  Is there a better
> way to read them than with eselect?
> 
> 
> [1]: https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/eselect.git/plain/NEWS

Unless you're running some script to sync portage and emerge, when you 
synchronise portage manually with emerge --sync, it will let you know if there 
are any new news items before you start emerging any packages.  You could get 
portage to email you all elogs, but I am not sure if this will also email you 
any news items - I've never used this feature.  It may require your own script 
to do it.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 20:21:19 +0100, lee wrote:

> >  Even more reasonable:
> >
> >  eselect news read new
> >
> > will only come up with the latest as yet unread news, rather than a
> > long list which could have accumulated over the years.  
> 
> It seems to be clearing out the list automatically.
> 
> [1] says the mailer module of eselect was removed.  Is there a better
> way to read them than with eselect?

Put this script in /etc/portage/postsync.d and make it executable

#!/bin/sh

if [ $( eselect news count new ) != "0" ]; then
   eselect news list | mail you@wherever.you.are
   fi


-- 
Neil Bothwick

To most people solutions mean finding the answers.  But to chemists
solutions are things that are still all mixed up.

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Kai Peter]

On 2016-12-27 21:31, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> 
> Put this script in /etc/portage/postsync.d and make it executable
> 
> #!/bin/sh
> 
> if [ $( eselect news count new ) != "0" ]; then
>    eselect news list | mail you@wherever.you.are
>    fi

Nice hint, really. I did a similar thing in my emerge wrapper script, 
but this looks more efficient. Thanks.
(Btw, knowing all about portage/emerge isn't a high priority by me ;))

-- 
Sent with eQmail-1.10-dev

mailer "module" for 'eselect news' (Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No)

[lee]

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Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> writes:

> On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 20:21:19 +0100, lee wrote:
>
>> >  Even more reasonable:
>> >
>> >  eselect news read new
>> >
>> > will only come up with the latest as yet unread news, rather than a
>> > long list which could have accumulated over the years.  
>> 
>> It seems to be clearing out the list automatically.
>> 
>> [1] says the mailer module of eselect was removed.  Is there a better
>> way to read them than with eselect?
>
> Put this script in /etc/portage/postsync.d and make it executable
>
> #!/bin/sh
>
> if [ $( eselect news count new ) != "0" ]; then
>    eselect news list | mail you@wherever.you.are
>    fi

Thanks!  To actually read the news as email, I wrote this:



[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
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[-- Type: text/x-perl, Size: 2293 bytes --]

#!/usr/bin/perl
#
#
# This program is free software: you can redistribute it and/or modify
# it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
# the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the License, or
# (at your option) any later version.
#
# This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but
# WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
# MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the GNU
# General Public License for more details.
#
# You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
# along with this program.  If not, see <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.
#
#
# You may need to emerge dev-perl/Email-MIME and dev-perl/Email-Sender
# for this to work.
#

use strict;
use warnings;
use Email::MIME;
use Email::Sender::Simple qw(sendmail);


#################### configure this ########################

my @rcpt = ('lee@yagibdah.de');
my $from = 'root@yagibdah.de';
my $subj = 'eselect news';
#
# you can set this to 0 to get an email for every news item
#
my $msglen = 65536;

#
# set to 1 to get only items listed as new
#
my $only_new = 1;

#################### / configure this #######################


my @list = qx/eselect news list/;
my @numbers = $only_new ? map(m/\A\s*\[(\d+)\]\s*N\s*\d/, @list) : map(m/\A\s*\[(\d+)\]/, @list);
my $content = join('', @list) . "\n" . ('#' x 70) . "\n\n";
undef @list;

foreach (@numbers) {
  my $do = "eselect news read $_";
  $content .= qx/$do/;
  $content .= "\n" . ('#' x 70) . "\n\n";

  if (length($content) > $msglen) {
    my $message = Email::MIME->create(
				      header_str => [
						     From    => $from,
						     To      => @rcpt,
						     Subject => $subj
						    ],
				      attributes => {
						     encoding => 'quoted-printable',
						     charset  => 'UTF-8'
						    },
				      body_str => $content
				     );
    sendmail($message);

    $content = '';
  }
}

if (length($content)) {
  my $message = Email::MIME->create(
				    header_str => [
						   From    => $from,
						   To      => @rcpt,
						   Subject => $subj
						  ],
				    attributes => {
						   encoding => 'quoted-printable',
						   charset  => 'UTF-8'
						  },
				    body_str => $content
				   );
  sendmail($message);
}


exit 0;

Re: mailer "module" for 'eselect news' (Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 28 Dec 2016 17:20:50 +0100, lee wrote:

> > #!/bin/sh
> >
> > if [ $( eselect news count new ) != "0" ]; then
> >    eselect news list | mail you@wherever.you.are
> >    fi  
> 
> Thanks!  To actually read the news as email, I wrote this:
> 
> #!/usr/bin/perl
[massive snip]

What does this actually do? Does it separate each news item into a
separate mail, which sounds a neat idea. If you just want all the news
news items, you could replace "list" with "read new" in my
script^H^H^H^H^^Hhack.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

 ... We are Dyslexics of Borg. Your ass will be laminated.

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Re: mailer "module" for 'eselect news' (Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?,

[lee]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> writes:

> On Wed, 28 Dec 2016 17:20:50 +0100, lee wrote:
>
>> > #!/bin/sh
>> >
>> > if [ $( eselect news count new ) != "0" ]; then
>> >    eselect news list | mail you@wherever.you.are
>> >    fi  
>> 
>> Thanks!  To actually read the news as email, I wrote this:
>> 
>> #!/usr/bin/perl
> [massive snip]
>
> What does this actually do? Does it separate each news item into a
> separate mail, which sounds a neat idea. If you just want all the news
> news items, you could replace "list" with "read new" in my
> script^H^H^H^H^^Hhack.

You can set it up either way, i. e. all in one email, or each item in
one, or several items in several mails, by setting $msglen.  I didn't
know there is 'read new' ...

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 18:50:38 +0100, Heiko Baums wrote:

> > Maybe there are different opinions, but what is cryptic on - as a
> > typical one - enp3s0?:
> > e - ethernet
> > n - network
> > p - pci (port) ...
> > 3 - ... 3
> > s - slot ...
> > 0 - ... 0  
> 
> Think about that yourself again and compare it to - eth0:
> 
> eth - ethernet
> 0 - 1st card

And which physical card is that? Each time you boot?
 
> I don't think I need to explain which of both is a lot more complicated
> and cryptic.

Yes, it is more complicated, but they are called predictable network
names, not simple network names. It means you know exactly which port a
network device refers to, every time you boot. Adding another NIC, even
if it is discovered first, will not change the names of existing NICs.

It's rather like the situation with hard disks, where sda may one day
become sdb, so distros use UUIDs in fstab. UUIDs are far more cryptic
than predictable network names, but no one complains loudly and
pointlessly about them, which I can only attribute to provenance.

Yes, the predictable names are pointless on a single-NIC system, which is
why there exist simple methods to switch back to the old way.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Bug: (n.) any program feature not yet described to the marketing
department.

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Yes, the predictable names are pointless on a single-NIC system, which is
> why there exist simple methods to switch back to the old way.
>

Either that, or just use a wildcard.  I just stick e* in my network
configuration so that it doesn't matter on single-NIC systems.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 11:21 AM, Heiko Baums <lists@baums-on-web.de> wrote:
> Am 20.12.2016 um 05:23 schrieb Andrej Rode:
>>
>> Yeah they make life easier. From your talk you never had a problem
>> with eth<0,10> switching names after boot. Everyone who had them
>> appreciates predictable network interfaces.
>
> Everyone who had them could learn how to write simple udev rules to
> get fixed eth<0,10> names after every boot. No systemd and no
> "predictable" names necessary.
>
> Nevertheless I'm still wondering what's so predictable at those
> incomprehensible, cryptic device names anyway. And I don't want to
> know that.

The predictable interface names (the systemd developers have an
unfortunate knack for misnaming ) arose for a multi-NIC world where

1) the kernel's ethX name for a particular NIC can change from one
boot to another

2) udev renaming NICs "ethX" can break if you rename a NIC "eth4" and
the kernel later names another NIC "eth4" as it enumerates the
hardware.

Given the above, the udev maintainers could've implemented a policy
that a NIC couldn't be renamed "ethX" but they decided no longer to
default to MAC-based naming rules and came up with naming based on
whether a NIC is an on-board one (enoX), a PCI Express one (ensX), a
PCI one (enpXsY), etc. In doing so, they defaulted to names that are
more complex than the kernel's (ethX) but you can now replace a NIC
without editing a file under "/etc/udev/rules.d/".

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Andrej Rode <mail@andrejro.de> writes:

> Why
>> Or can you explain how unrecognisable names make things easier?
>
> Yeah they make life easier. From your talk you never had a problem with
> eth<0,10> switching names after boot. Everyone who had them appreciates
> predictable network interfaces.

Right, I've never had a problem like that.

> If you don't like them you can disable them in udev (I actually was
> wrong about only systemd).
> And actually I couldn't care less how my devices are named. Because
> ranting about them on a mailing list already takes more time and
> characters than typing `ip a`
>
> But yeah, I stop feeding the trolls right here :)

You have missed the point.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 5:04 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
> Andrej Rode <mail@andrejro.de> writes:
>>
>>> Or can you explain how unrecognisable names make things easier?
>>
>> Yeah they make life easier. From your talk you never had a problem
>> with eth<0,10> switching names after boot. Everyone who had them
>> appreciates predictable network interfaces.
>
> Right, I've never had a problem like that.

Therefore no one else could possibly have had it...

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Daniel Frey]

On 12/19/2016 01:09 PM, Andrej Rode wrote:
> 
>>> It is even more frustrating that these so-called predictable network
>>> names actually can change on a reboot, it's happened to me more than
>>> once when multiple network cards are detected in a different order.
> 
> Then you might found a bug? With predictable network names the name of
> your device depends on the PCIe slot/address it is in. If you change
> positions in the board your names should change, not on reboot.
> 
> And you might believe it or not, running Linux on servers is much more
> popular than running Linux on your home desktop. Thus I'd guess things
> tend to be made easier for people with more than one network card.
> Certainly you don't want rely on random device enumeration order on
> reboot if you run a webserver with multiple network devices.
> 
> If you want to disable this on hosts running systemd read [0].
> 
> Cheers,
> Andrej
> 
> [0]
> https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames/
> 

It could be I found a bug. After a reboot it went from the normal enp0s1
(or whatever) to eno1677789 or something ridiculous. I had this happen
on two different machines.

I tried systemd on a couple machines to see what the hubbub was about,
and on one machine it crashed on reboot. I probably forgot something,
but alas, I'd already removed openrc and found out about the binary
logs. I had no way to download something that supported systemd at the
time so I could view the log.

Went back to openrc on that machine and disabled that stupid predictable
name junk. When you only have one network interface, it's rather silly.
That should have been by default off, server administrators could turn
it back on.

For what it's worth, systemd works fine on my 11-year-old laptop. It had
issues with my desktop (which is almost 9 years old now) but I really
don't know if it was related to mdadm, or ??? I thought I had it figured
out on my desktop but on reboot systemd wouldn't mark my IMSM mdadm
array as clean leading to a disk thrashing every time I rebooted, making
my computer almost unusable.

Dan

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Andrej Rode]

> It could be I found a bug. After a reboot it went from the normal enp0s1
> (or whatever) to eno1677789 or something ridiculous. I had this happen
> on two different machines.
Sounds like you have other problems than an init system with your
systems. Could be your PCIe stuff isn't working correctly
> 

> For what it's worth, systemd works fine on my 11-year-old laptop. It had
> issues with my desktop (which is almost 9 years old now) but I really
> don't know if it was related to mdadm, or ??? I thought I had it figured
> out on my desktop but on reboot systemd wouldn't mark my IMSM mdadm
> array as clean leading to a disk thrashing every time I rebooted, making
> my computer almost unusable.

I don't see a strong relation between bugs in your RAID and systemd
itself. Maybe service files are buggy or wrong. But imagine, your
init-script has a bug? Stuff will certainly break.

Easy to blame things on something you don't like, I know.
I don't like every aspect of using systemd either. Still I have more
benefits than drawbacks from using it. Even the binary log files have
their benefits. Personally I make heavy use of `--boot -p err --since=
--unit" flags in journalctl to get logs I want without trying to figure
out the right grep pattern and wasting my time to get it right. And
still you can configure it to pass logs to rsyslog.

You can look at the bugtracker in udev if someone experiences random
if-name changes.

Cheers,
Andrej

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/19/2016 01:09 PM, Andrej Rode wrote:
>>
>> https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames/
>
> It could be I found a bug. After a reboot it went from the normal
> enp0s1 (or whatever) to eno1677789 or something ridiculous. I had this
> happen on two different machines.

https://github.com/systemd/systemd/commit/6c1e69f9

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Daniel Frey]

On 12/21/2016 10:53 PM, Tom H wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 12/19/2016 01:09 PM, Andrej Rode wrote:
>>>
>>> https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames/
>>
>> It could be I found a bug. After a reboot it went from the normal
>> enp0s1 (or whatever) to eno1677789 or something ridiculous. I had this
>> happen on two different machines.
> 
> https://github.com/systemd/systemd/commit/6c1e69f9
> 

So it wasn't just me! My memory seems to lose voltage once in a while,
but I remember wondering what happened to the system I was working on
remotely after I rebooted, that's why I was sure it happened! ;-)

Dan

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 10:40 AM, Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/21/2016 10:53 PM, Tom H wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> It could be I found a bug. After a reboot it went from the normal
>>> enp0s1 (or whatever) to eno1677789 or something ridiculous. I had
>>> this happen on two different machines.
>>
>> https://github.com/systemd/systemd/commit/6c1e69f9
>
> So it wasn't just me! My memory seems to lose voltage once in a while,
> but I remember wondering what happened to the system I was working on
> remotely after I rebooted, that's why I was sure it happened! ;-)

LOL

I was intrigued by the "non-sensically high onboard indexes" and
Google gave me the following (you're definitely not alone):

http://serverfault.com/questions/636621/why-is-my-eth0-called-eno16777736

http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/91085/udev-renaming-my-network-interface

http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/153785/what-does-eno-mean-in-network-interface-name-eno16777736-for-centos-7-or-rhel

From the last link:

The /(0000:1000208:01.0)/ above is the Domain:Bus:Device.Function
address with the bus value, "1000208", being the hexadecimal
representation of 16777736. However, "0x100" (256) Should be the maximum
value that you can have for "Bus."

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Dale]

lee wrote:
> Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 12/19/2016 10:15 AM, lee wrote:
>>> "Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> writes:
>>>
>>>>   Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
>>>> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.
>>> Since 10 years or so, the default is two ports.
>> Not in any of the computers I've built. Generally only high end or
>> workstation/server boards have two ports.
>>
>> i.e. not what the typical home user would buy.
> It is not reasonable to assume that a "typical home user" would want a
> computer with a crappy board to run Linux on it (or for anything
> else). If they are that cheap, they're better off buying a used one.
> When they are sufficiently clueless to want something like that, what
> does it matter what the network interfaces are called.
>

I built my current rig just a few years ago.  It has one ethernet port
on it.  Since it didn't work right, bad drivers I guess, I added a card
to have the second port.  The rig I built before that, it also had one
ethernet port. 

I might add, I didn't buy a "crappy board" either.  The first was Abit
which was the top rated brand at the time and my current board is
Gigabyte, another highly rated board at the time I bought it.  As Daniel
points out, you have to get into some pretty high end boards before you
get two ethernet ports. 

Just for giggles, I went and looked at Asus boards, currently highly
rated.  I had to get up around the $400 range to find two ports.  Most
computers built for home use, and even some, maybe most, business
computers, only have one port.  It's all they need. 

I might also add, I have a lot of friends that give me their old
computers.  Of all the puters I have ever seen, they had one ethernet
port.  Over the past decade or so, I've likely stripped out a few dozen
computers for parts.  Not one of them had two ethernet ports. 

I'm with Daniel on this one. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Taiidan]

On 12/19/2016 05:50 PM, Dale wrote:

> lee wrote:
>> Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 12/19/2016 10:15 AM, lee wrote:
>>>> "Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>    Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
>>>>> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.
>>>> Since 10 years or so, the default is two ports.
>>> Not in any of the computers I've built. Generally only high end or
>>> workstation/server boards have two ports.
>>>
>>> i.e. not what the typical home user would buy.
>> It is not reasonable to assume that a "typical home user" would want a
>> computer with a crappy board to run Linux on it (or for anything
>> else). If they are that cheap, they're better off buying a used one.
>> When they are sufficiently clueless to want something like that, what
>> does it matter what the network interfaces are called.
>>
> I built my current rig just a few years ago.  It has one ethernet port
> on it.  Since it didn't work right, bad drivers I guess, I added a card
> to have the second port.  The rig I built before that, it also had one
> ethernet port.
>
> I might add, I didn't buy a "crappy board" either.  The first was Abit
> which was the top rated brand at the time and my current board is
> Gigabyte, another highly rated board at the time I bought it.  As Daniel
> points out, you have to get into some pretty high end boards before you
> get two ethernet ports.
>
> Just for giggles, I went and looked at Asus boards, currently highly
> rated.  I had to get up around the $400 range to find two ports.  Most
> computers built for home use, and even some, maybe most, business
> computers, only have one port.  It's all they need.
>
> I might also add, I have a lot of friends that give me their old
> computers.  Of all the puters I have ever seen, they had one ethernet
> port.  Over the past decade or so, I've likely stripped out a few dozen
> computers for parts.  Not one of them had two ethernet ports.
>
> I'm with Daniel on this one.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
I too have never seen a non server board with more than one embedded 
network interface.
I have an expensive server board that features two ethernet ports but I 
really hate the removal of the ethX scheme, sometimes they get detected 
in the wrong order and ethX is way easier to type than ens1s0 or what not.

It is just another swell example of the pottering-eqsue corruption of 
the free software movement.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

"Taiidan@gmx.com" <Taiidan@gmx.com> writes:

> It is just another swell example of the pottering-eqsue corruption of
> the free software movement.

Was that really his idea?

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:

> lee wrote:
>> Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 12/19/2016 10:15 AM, lee wrote:
>>>> "Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>   Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
>>>>> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.
>>>> Since 10 years or so, the default is two ports.
>>> Not in any of the computers I've built. Generally only high end or
>>> workstation/server boards have two ports.
>>>
>>> i.e. not what the typical home user would buy.
>> It is not reasonable to assume that a "typical home user" would want a
>> computer with a crappy board to run Linux on it (or for anything
>> else). If they are that cheap, they're better off buying a used one.
>> When they are sufficiently clueless to want something like that, what
>> does it matter what the network interfaces are called.
>>
>
> I built my current rig just a few years ago.  It has one ethernet port
> on it.  Since it didn't work right, bad drivers I guess, I added a card
> to have the second port.  The rig I built before that, it also had one
> ethernet port. 
>
> I might add, I didn't buy a "crappy board" either.  The first was Abit
> which was the top rated brand at the time and my current board is
> Gigabyte, another highly rated board at the time I bought it.

I have no experience with Abit, and I can tell you from experience with
a couple of them that Gigabyte is the worst junk for a board you can
buy and that their support has no idea what they are doing.

> As Daniel
> points out, you have to get into some pretty high end boards before you
> get two ethernet ports. 
>
> Just for giggles, I went and looked at Asus boards, currently highly
> rated.  I had to get up around the $400 range to find two ports.  Most
> computers built for home use, and even some, maybe most, business
> computers, only have one port.  It's all they need. 
>
> I might also add, I have a lot of friends that give me their old
> computers.  Of all the puters I have ever seen, they had one ethernet
> port.  Over the past decade or so, I've likely stripped out a few dozen
> computers for parts.  Not one of them had two ethernet ports. 
>
> I'm with Daniel on this one. 

The last time I got a board that didn't have two ports is about 20 years
ago, and I never bought one for 400.  They all just have 2, needed or
not, even cheap ones.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Dale]

lee wrote:
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> lee wrote:
>>> Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 12/19/2016 10:15 AM, lee wrote:
>>>>> "Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>>   Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
>>>>>> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.
>>>>> Since 10 years or so, the default is two ports.
>>>> Not in any of the computers I've built. Generally only high end or
>>>> workstation/server boards have two ports.
>>>>
>>>> i.e. not what the typical home user would buy.
>>> It is not reasonable to assume that a "typical home user" would want a
>>> computer with a crappy board to run Linux on it (or for anything
>>> else). If they are that cheap, they're better off buying a used one.
>>> When they are sufficiently clueless to want something like that, what
>>> does it matter what the network interfaces are called.
>>>
>> I built my current rig just a few years ago.  It has one ethernet port
>> on it.  Since it didn't work right, bad drivers I guess, I added a card
>> to have the second port.  The rig I built before that, it also had one
>> ethernet port. 
>>
>> I might add, I didn't buy a "crappy board" either.  The first was Abit
>> which was the top rated brand at the time and my current board is
>> Gigabyte, another highly rated board at the time I bought it.
> I have no experience with Abit, and I can tell you from experience with
> a couple of them that Gigabyte is the worst junk for a board you can
> buy and that their support has no idea what they are doing.

Well, I have two of them and they work just fine.  I might add, Abit
gave me many years of 24/7 service.  Being outdated was its only
problem.  Also, Gigabyte and Asus were the top rated boards when I
bought my board.  Some who have been here long enough may even recall me
posting my buy list here on this mailing list.  So, you thinking
Gigabyte is junk can go in the same place as your thinking two ports on
every board is the default.   It's your opinion and not based on
reality.   I've learned the same usually applies to hard drives as well. 

>> As Daniel
>> points out, you have to get into some pretty high end boards before you
>> get two ethernet ports. 
>>
>> Just for giggles, I went and looked at Asus boards, currently highly
>> rated.  I had to get up around the $400 range to find two ports.  Most
>> computers built for home use, and even some, maybe most, business
>> computers, only have one port.  It's all they need. 
>>
>> I might also add, I have a lot of friends that give me their old
>> computers.  Of all the puters I have ever seen, they had one ethernet
>> port.  Over the past decade or so, I've likely stripped out a few dozen
>> computers for parts.  Not one of them had two ethernet ports. 
>>
>> I'm with Daniel on this one. 
> The last time I got a board that didn't have two ports is about 20 years
> ago, and I never bought one for 400.  They all just have 2, needed or
> not, even cheap ones.
>
>

Odd.  Just for giggles, I went to Newegg.  I pulled up both AMD and
Intel boards.  I then looked at the pictures of the top sellers listed
there.  With my settings, it lists 36 on each page.  Out of the first
page for each type, only a couple or so had two ports and only one that
I saw was under $200.00.  The rest were more expensive than that.  I
think that one $200.00 board was a Gigabyte by the way.  I doubt you
want to claim owning that, right?  Looked at 72 boards, only found a
couple or so with two ethernet ports. 

So, looking at a large website that has likely millions of customers,
carries about every brand of board there is, I could only find a very
small percentage of boards that have two ethernet ports built in.  That
is not what a reasonable person would call the default.  If it was the
default as you claim, then there should only be a few that don't have
two ports.  You add in that Daniel, Taiidan and myself have not seen
such a default, then I think you are mistaken. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:

> lee wrote:
>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> lee wrote:
>>>> Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/19/2016 10:15 AM, lee wrote:
>>>>>> "Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
>>>>>>> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.
>>>>>> Since 10 years or so, the default is two ports.
>>>>> Not in any of the computers I've built. Generally only high end or
>>>>> workstation/server boards have two ports.
>>>>>
>>>>> i.e. not what the typical home user would buy.
>>>> It is not reasonable to assume that a "typical home user" would want a
>>>> computer with a crappy board to run Linux on it (or for anything
>>>> else). If they are that cheap, they're better off buying a used one.
>>>> When they are sufficiently clueless to want something like that, what
>>>> does it matter what the network interfaces are called.
>>>>
>>> I built my current rig just a few years ago.  It has one ethernet port
>>> on it.  Since it didn't work right, bad drivers I guess, I added a card
>>> to have the second port.  The rig I built before that, it also had one
>>> ethernet port. 
>>>
>>> I might add, I didn't buy a "crappy board" either.  The first was Abit
>>> which was the top rated brand at the time and my current board is
>>> Gigabyte, another highly rated board at the time I bought it.
>> I have no experience with Abit, and I can tell you from experience with
>> a couple of them that Gigabyte is the worst junk for a board you can
>> buy and that their support has no idea what they are doing.
>
> Well, I have two of them and they work just fine.  I might add, Abit
> gave me many years of 24/7 service.  Being outdated was its only
> problem.  Also, Gigabyte and Asus were the top rated boards when I
> bought my board.  Some who have been here long enough may even recall me
> posting my buy list here on this mailing list.  So, you thinking
> Gigabyte is junk can go in the same place as your thinking two ports on
> every board is the default.   It's your opinion and not based on
> reality.   I've learned the same usually applies to hard drives as well. 

You must be assuming that the Gigabyte boards I've had my hands on
somehow existed outside of reality.

>>> As Daniel
>>> points out, you have to get into some pretty high end boards before you
>>> get two ethernet ports. 
>>>
>>> Just for giggles, I went and looked at Asus boards, currently highly
>>> rated.  I had to get up around the $400 range to find two ports.  Most
>>> computers built for home use, and even some, maybe most, business
>>> computers, only have one port.  It's all they need. 
>>>
>>> I might also add, I have a lot of friends that give me their old
>>> computers.  Of all the puters I have ever seen, they had one ethernet
>>> port.  Over the past decade or so, I've likely stripped out a few dozen
>>> computers for parts.  Not one of them had two ethernet ports. 
>>>
>>> I'm with Daniel on this one. 
>> The last time I got a board that didn't have two ports is about 20 years
>> ago, and I never bought one for 400.  They all just have 2, needed or
>> not, even cheap ones.
>>
>>
>
> Odd.  Just for giggles, I went to Newegg.  I pulled up both AMD and
> Intel boards.  I then looked at the pictures of the top sellers listed
> there.  With my settings, it lists 36 on each page.  Out of the first
> page for each type, only a couple or so had two ports and only one that
> I saw was under $200.00.  The rest were more expensive than that.  I
> think that one $200.00 board was a Gigabyte by the way.  I doubt you
> want to claim owning that, right?  Looked at 72 boards, only found a
> couple or so with two ethernet ports. 
>
> So, looking at a large website that has likely millions of customers,
> carries about every brand of board there is, I could only find a very
> small percentage of boards that have two ethernet ports built in.  That
> is not what a reasonable person would call the default.  If it was the
> default as you claim, then there should only be a few that don't have
> two ports.  You add in that Daniel, Taiidan and myself have not seen
> such a default, then I think you are mistaken. 

That may very well be so, yet the boards around here usually have two
ports.  If the ones around you usually have one port, it's not
surprising that you would assume a different default number of ports.
So what?

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Dale]

lee wrote:
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> lee wrote:
>>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> lee wrote:
>>>>> Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/19/2016 10:15 AM, lee wrote:
>>>>>>> "Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
>>>>>>>> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.
>>>>>>> Since 10 years or so, the default is two ports.
>>>>>> Not in any of the computers I've built. Generally only high end or
>>>>>> workstation/server boards have two ports.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i.e. not what the typical home user would buy.
>>>>> It is not reasonable to assume that a "typical home user" would want a
>>>>> computer with a crappy board to run Linux on it (or for anything
>>>>> else). If they are that cheap, they're better off buying a used one.
>>>>> When they are sufficiently clueless to want something like that, what
>>>>> does it matter what the network interfaces are called.
>>>>>
>>>> I built my current rig just a few years ago.  It has one ethernet port
>>>> on it.  Since it didn't work right, bad drivers I guess, I added a card
>>>> to have the second port.  The rig I built before that, it also had one
>>>> ethernet port. 
>>>>
>>>> I might add, I didn't buy a "crappy board" either.  The first was Abit
>>>> which was the top rated brand at the time and my current board is
>>>> Gigabyte, another highly rated board at the time I bought it.
>>> I have no experience with Abit, and I can tell you from experience with
>>> a couple of them that Gigabyte is the worst junk for a board you can
>>> buy and that their support has no idea what they are doing.
>> Well, I have two of them and they work just fine.  I might add, Abit
>> gave me many years of 24/7 service.  Being outdated was its only
>> problem.  Also, Gigabyte and Asus were the top rated boards when I
>> bought my board.  Some who have been here long enough may even recall me
>> posting my buy list here on this mailing list.  So, you thinking
>> Gigabyte is junk can go in the same place as your thinking two ports on
>> every board is the default.   It's your opinion and not based on
>> reality.   I've learned the same usually applies to hard drives as well. 
> You must be assuming that the Gigabyte boards I've had my hands on
> somehow existed outside of reality.

I think you are outside reality at this point. 


>
>>>> As Daniel
>>>> points out, you have to get into some pretty high end boards before you
>>>> get two ethernet ports. 
>>>>
>>>> Just for giggles, I went and looked at Asus boards, currently highly
>>>> rated.  I had to get up around the $400 range to find two ports.  Most
>>>> computers built for home use, and even some, maybe most, business
>>>> computers, only have one port.  It's all they need. 
>>>>
>>>> I might also add, I have a lot of friends that give me their old
>>>> computers.  Of all the puters I have ever seen, they had one ethernet
>>>> port.  Over the past decade or so, I've likely stripped out a few dozen
>>>> computers for parts.  Not one of them had two ethernet ports. 
>>>>
>>>> I'm with Daniel on this one. 
>>> The last time I got a board that didn't have two ports is about 20 years
>>> ago, and I never bought one for 400.  They all just have 2, needed or
>>> not, even cheap ones.
>>>
>>>
>> Odd.  Just for giggles, I went to Newegg.  I pulled up both AMD and
>> Intel boards.  I then looked at the pictures of the top sellers listed
>> there.  With my settings, it lists 36 on each page.  Out of the first
>> page for each type, only a couple or so had two ports and only one that
>> I saw was under $200.00.  The rest were more expensive than that.  I
>> think that one $200.00 board was a Gigabyte by the way.  I doubt you
>> want to claim owning that, right?  Looked at 72 boards, only found a
>> couple or so with two ethernet ports. 
>>
>> So, looking at a large website that has likely millions of customers,
>> carries about every brand of board there is, I could only find a very
>> small percentage of boards that have two ethernet ports built in.  That
>> is not what a reasonable person would call the default.  If it was the
>> default as you claim, then there should only be a few that don't have
>> two ports.  You add in that Daniel, Taiidan and myself have not seen
>> such a default, then I think you are mistaken. 
> That may very well be so, yet the boards around here usually have two
> ports.  If the ones around you usually have one port, it's not
> surprising that you would assume a different default number of ports.
> So what?
>
> .
>

I didn't go look at boards I had around here.  I went to a major
computer supplier, newegg, and looked at what they had.  Go back and
read again what I did and maybe read it more carefully. 

Might I also add, it's more than just me that has pointed out that you
are not correct on this.  It's a few others as well.  You ever stop to
think that what you observe is not the normal and certainly not the
default?  If what you claim was even remotely accurate, newegg would
have had a lot larger number of boards with two ports on it.  Thing is,
they didn't.  Kai pointed out that the same is true in Europe.  

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:

> lee wrote:
>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> lee wrote:
>>>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> lee wrote:
>>>>>> Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 12/19/2016 10:15 AM, lee wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
>>>>>>>>> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.
>>>>>>>> Since 10 years or so, the default is two ports.
>>>>>>> Not in any of the computers I've built. Generally only high end or
>>>>>>> workstation/server boards have two ports.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i.e. not what the typical home user would buy.
>>>>>> It is not reasonable to assume that a "typical home user" would want a
>>>>>> computer with a crappy board to run Linux on it (or for anything
>>>>>> else). If they are that cheap, they're better off buying a used one.
>>>>>> When they are sufficiently clueless to want something like that, what
>>>>>> does it matter what the network interfaces are called.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I built my current rig just a few years ago.  It has one ethernet port
>>>>> on it.  Since it didn't work right, bad drivers I guess, I added a card
>>>>> to have the second port.  The rig I built before that, it also had one
>>>>> ethernet port. 
>>>>>
>>>>> I might add, I didn't buy a "crappy board" either.  The first was Abit
>>>>> which was the top rated brand at the time and my current board is
>>>>> Gigabyte, another highly rated board at the time I bought it.
>>>> I have no experience with Abit, and I can tell you from experience with
>>>> a couple of them that Gigabyte is the worst junk for a board you can
>>>> buy and that their support has no idea what they are doing.
>>> Well, I have two of them and they work just fine.  I might add, Abit
>>> gave me many years of 24/7 service.  Being outdated was its only
>>> problem.  Also, Gigabyte and Asus were the top rated boards when I
>>> bought my board.  Some who have been here long enough may even recall me
>>> posting my buy list here on this mailing list.  So, you thinking
>>> Gigabyte is junk can go in the same place as your thinking two ports on
>>> every board is the default.   It's your opinion and not based on
>>> reality.   I've learned the same usually applies to hard drives as well. 
>> You must be assuming that the Gigabyte boards I've had my hands on
>> somehow existed outside of reality.
>
> I think you are outside reality at this point. 
>
>
>>
>>>>> As Daniel
>>>>> points out, you have to get into some pretty high end boards before you
>>>>> get two ethernet ports. 
>>>>>
>>>>> Just for giggles, I went and looked at Asus boards, currently highly
>>>>> rated.  I had to get up around the $400 range to find two ports.  Most
>>>>> computers built for home use, and even some, maybe most, business
>>>>> computers, only have one port.  It's all they need. 
>>>>>
>>>>> I might also add, I have a lot of friends that give me their old
>>>>> computers.  Of all the puters I have ever seen, they had one ethernet
>>>>> port.  Over the past decade or so, I've likely stripped out a few dozen
>>>>> computers for parts.  Not one of them had two ethernet ports. 
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm with Daniel on this one. 
>>>> The last time I got a board that didn't have two ports is about 20 years
>>>> ago, and I never bought one for 400.  They all just have 2, needed or
>>>> not, even cheap ones.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Odd.  Just for giggles, I went to Newegg.  I pulled up both AMD and
>>> Intel boards.  I then looked at the pictures of the top sellers listed
>>> there.  With my settings, it lists 36 on each page.  Out of the first
>>> page for each type, only a couple or so had two ports and only one that
>>> I saw was under $200.00.  The rest were more expensive than that.  I
>>> think that one $200.00 board was a Gigabyte by the way.  I doubt you
>>> want to claim owning that, right?  Looked at 72 boards, only found a
>>> couple or so with two ethernet ports. 
>>>
>>> So, looking at a large website that has likely millions of customers,
>>> carries about every brand of board there is, I could only find a very
>>> small percentage of boards that have two ethernet ports built in.  That
>>> is not what a reasonable person would call the default.  If it was the
>>> default as you claim, then there should only be a few that don't have
>>> two ports.  You add in that Daniel, Taiidan and myself have not seen
>>> such a default, then I think you are mistaken. 
>> That may very well be so, yet the boards around here usually have two
>> ports.  If the ones around you usually have one port, it's not
>> surprising that you would assume a different default number of ports.
>> So what?
>>
>> .
>>
>
> I didn't go look at boards I had around here.  I went to a major
> computer supplier, newegg, and looked at what they had.  Go back and
> read again what I did and maybe read it more carefully. 
>
> Might I also add, it's more than just me that has pointed out that you
> are not correct on this.  It's a few others as well.  You ever stop to
> think that what you observe is not the normal and certainly not the
> default?  If what you claim was even remotely accurate, newegg would
> have had a lot larger number of boards with two ports on it.  Thing is,
> they didn't.  Kai pointed out that the same is true in Europe.  

Why would I assume that what someone else observes is a default?
Besides, I don't see what problem you're having with this.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Dale]

lee wrote:
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>
> I didn't go look at boards I had around here.  I went to a major
> computer supplier, newegg, and looked at what they had.  Go back and
> read again what I did and maybe read it more carefully. 
>
> Might I also add, it's more than just me that has pointed out that you
> are not correct on this.  It's a few others as well.  You ever stop to
> think that what you observe is not the normal and certainly not the
> default?  If what you claim was even remotely accurate, newegg would
> have had a lot larger number of boards with two ports on it.  Thing is,
> they didn't.  Kai pointed out that the same is true in Europe.  
> Why would I assume that what someone else observes is a default?
> Besides, I don't see what problem you're having with this.
>
>

Then why would what you observe also be claimed to be the default?   As
I also pointed out, it's not just what I observe, it's what I and others
have observed as well.  So far, you are the only person claiming that
two ports on a home user board is the default.  I have not seen anyone
else post that you are correct.  Others have posted that you are not
correct tho. 

The problem is, you claim that having two ports is the default.  It is
not the default.  I've said it, even researched it and explained how I
researched it, others have also posted the same point.  Just because you
have boards with two ports does not mean it is a default.  Given the
research I did, it isn't even close.  Boards with two ports for a home
user is not only not the default, it's somewhat rare.  Out of the top 72
boards I checked, only a couple or so had two ports.  That is far from
being the default.  That is quite rare.  Even if it was 5 boards, that
would be under 10%.  That is hardly something to call a default.  If it
were say 50%, then one could at least argue that the default is moving
to having two ports.  It's just not the case. 

The sooner you figure that out the better for you. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:

> lee wrote:
>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> I didn't go look at boards I had around here.  I went to a major
>> computer supplier, newegg, and looked at what they had.  Go back and
>> read again what I did and maybe read it more carefully. 
>>
>> Might I also add, it's more than just me that has pointed out that you
>> are not correct on this.  It's a few others as well.  You ever stop to
>> think that what you observe is not the normal and certainly not the
>> default?  If what you claim was even remotely accurate, newegg would
>> have had a lot larger number of boards with two ports on it.  Thing is,
>> they didn't.  Kai pointed out that the same is true in Europe.  
>> Why would I assume that what someone else observes is a default?
>> Besides, I don't see what problem you're having with this.
>>
>>
>
> Then why would what you observe also be claimed to be the default?   As
> I also pointed out, it's not just what I observe, it's what I and others
> have observed as well.  So far, you are the only person claiming that
> two ports on a home user board is the default.  I have not seen anyone
> else post that you are correct.  Others have posted that you are not
> correct tho. 
>
> The problem is, you claim that having two ports is the default.  It is
> not the default.  I've said it, even researched it and explained how I
> researched it, others have also posted the same point.  Just because you
> have boards with two ports does not mean it is a default.  Given the
> research I did, it isn't even close.  Boards with two ports for a home
> user is not only not the default, it's somewhat rare.  Out of the top 72
> boards I checked, only a couple or so had two ports.  That is far from
> being the default.  That is quite rare.  Even if it was 5 boards, that
> would be under 10%.  That is hardly something to call a default.  If it
> were say 50%, then one could at least argue that the default is moving
> to having two ports.  It's just not the case. 
>
> The sooner you figure that out the better for you. 

And eating rice is the default because so many people do it ...

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Dale]

lee wrote:
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> lee wrote:
>>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>> I didn't go look at boards I had around here.  I went to a major
>>> computer supplier, newegg, and looked at what they had.  Go back and
>>> read again what I did and maybe read it more carefully. 
>>>
>>> Might I also add, it's more than just me that has pointed out that you
>>> are not correct on this.  It's a few others as well.  You ever stop to
>>> think that what you observe is not the normal and certainly not the
>>> default?  If what you claim was even remotely accurate, newegg would
>>> have had a lot larger number of boards with two ports on it.  Thing is,
>>> they didn't.  Kai pointed out that the same is true in Europe.  
>>> Why would I assume that what someone else observes is a default?
>>> Besides, I don't see what problem you're having with this.
>>>
>>>
>> Then why would what you observe also be claimed to be the default?   As
>> I also pointed out, it's not just what I observe, it's what I and others
>> have observed as well.  So far, you are the only person claiming that
>> two ports on a home user board is the default.  I have not seen anyone
>> else post that you are correct.  Others have posted that you are not
>> correct tho. 
>>
>> The problem is, you claim that having two ports is the default.  It is
>> not the default.  I've said it, even researched it and explained how I
>> researched it, others have also posted the same point.  Just because you
>> have boards with two ports does not mean it is a default.  Given the
>> research I did, it isn't even close.  Boards with two ports for a home
>> user is not only not the default, it's somewhat rare.  Out of the top 72
>> boards I checked, only a couple or so had two ports.  That is far from
>> being the default.  That is quite rare.  Even if it was 5 boards, that
>> would be under 10%.  That is hardly something to call a default.  If it
>> were say 50%, then one could at least argue that the default is moving
>> to having two ports.  It's just not the case. 
>>
>> The sooner you figure that out the better for you. 
> And eating rice is the default because so many people do it ...
>
> .
>

You can claim that having two ports is the default but that isn't
supported by a single fact.  As I said, the only person who thinks it is
a default is you.  The default would be set by the manufacturers.  Since
what is manufactured has to be sold, one good way to find out what the
default is, go look at what is being sold.  When you see something that
is common, like say four USB ports, then that is the default.  Another
example, if most all boards have five PCI-e slots, then that is the
default.  If you want six slots, seven slots or more, then you are
likely going to pay extra and have fewer buying options because that is
not the default. 

Using your logic, no one eats rice since so much of it is grown and
sold.  If rice was not grown and not sold, then your logic would work. 
So, your post doesn't even make sense.  The manufacturers of boards by a
large margin puts one ethernet port on a home use board and even most
office computers only need one port.  If one goes and looks at what is
being manufactured and sold, they would be able to see that.  Of course,
some people can't see it even when several people post the facts.  It
seems some will never get the idea. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:

> lee wrote:
>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> lee wrote:
>>>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>> I didn't go look at boards I had around here.  I went to a major
>>>> computer supplier, newegg, and looked at what they had.  Go back and
>>>> read again what I did and maybe read it more carefully. 
>>>>
>>>> Might I also add, it's more than just me that has pointed out that you
>>>> are not correct on this.  It's a few others as well.  You ever stop to
>>>> think that what you observe is not the normal and certainly not the
>>>> default?  If what you claim was even remotely accurate, newegg would
>>>> have had a lot larger number of boards with two ports on it.  Thing is,
>>>> they didn't.  Kai pointed out that the same is true in Europe.  
>>>> Why would I assume that what someone else observes is a default?
>>>> Besides, I don't see what problem you're having with this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Then why would what you observe also be claimed to be the default?   As
>>> I also pointed out, it's not just what I observe, it's what I and others
>>> have observed as well.  So far, you are the only person claiming that
>>> two ports on a home user board is the default.  I have not seen anyone
>>> else post that you are correct.  Others have posted that you are not
>>> correct tho. 
>>>
>>> The problem is, you claim that having two ports is the default.  It is
>>> not the default.  I've said it, even researched it and explained how I
>>> researched it, others have also posted the same point.  Just because you
>>> have boards with two ports does not mean it is a default.  Given the
>>> research I did, it isn't even close.  Boards with two ports for a home
>>> user is not only not the default, it's somewhat rare.  Out of the top 72
>>> boards I checked, only a couple or so had two ports.  That is far from
>>> being the default.  That is quite rare.  Even if it was 5 boards, that
>>> would be under 10%.  That is hardly something to call a default.  If it
>>> were say 50%, then one could at least argue that the default is moving
>>> to having two ports.  It's just not the case. 
>>>
>>> The sooner you figure that out the better for you. 
>> And eating rice is the default because so many people do it ...
>>
>> .
>>
>
> You can claim that having two ports is the default but that isn't
> supported by a single fact.  As I said, the only person who thinks it is
> a default is you.  The default would be set by the manufacturers.  Since
> what is manufactured has to be sold, one good way to find out what the
> default is, go look at what is being sold.  When you see something that
> is common, like say four USB ports, then that is the default.  Another
> example, if most all boards have five PCI-e slots, then that is the
> default.  If you want six slots, seven slots or more, then you are
> likely going to pay extra and have fewer buying options because that is
> not the default. 
>
> Using your logic, no one eats rice since so much of it is grown and
> sold.  If rice was not grown and not sold, then your logic would work. 
> So, your post doesn't even make sense.  The manufacturers of boards by a
> large margin puts one ethernet port on a home use board and even most
> office computers only need one port.  If one goes and looks at what is
> being manufactured and sold, they would be able to see that.  Of course,
> some people can't see it even when several people post the facts.  It
> seems some will never get the idea. 

Rice is not eaten much around here, so it's not the default type of
food.

Besides, people buy what is being manufactured.  If all boards were
manufactured with 4 ports, it wouldn't stop ppl from buying them, and if
no rice was grown, it wouldn't stop ppl from eating (if sufficient
quantities of other types of food were available).

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Dale]

lee wrote:
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> lee wrote:
>>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> lee wrote:
>>>>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't go look at boards I had around here.  I went to a major
>>>>> computer supplier, newegg, and looked at what they had.  Go back and
>>>>> read again what I did and maybe read it more carefully. 
>>>>>
>>>>> Might I also add, it's more than just me that has pointed out that you
>>>>> are not correct on this.  It's a few others as well.  You ever stop to
>>>>> think that what you observe is not the normal and certainly not the
>>>>> default?  If what you claim was even remotely accurate, newegg would
>>>>> have had a lot larger number of boards with two ports on it.  Thing is,
>>>>> they didn't.  Kai pointed out that the same is true in Europe.  
>>>>> Why would I assume that what someone else observes is a default?
>>>>> Besides, I don't see what problem you're having with this.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Then why would what you observe also be claimed to be the default?   As
>>>> I also pointed out, it's not just what I observe, it's what I and others
>>>> have observed as well.  So far, you are the only person claiming that
>>>> two ports on a home user board is the default.  I have not seen anyone
>>>> else post that you are correct.  Others have posted that you are not
>>>> correct tho. 
>>>>
>>>> The problem is, you claim that having two ports is the default.  It is
>>>> not the default.  I've said it, even researched it and explained how I
>>>> researched it, others have also posted the same point.  Just because you
>>>> have boards with two ports does not mean it is a default.  Given the
>>>> research I did, it isn't even close.  Boards with two ports for a home
>>>> user is not only not the default, it's somewhat rare.  Out of the top 72
>>>> boards I checked, only a couple or so had two ports.  That is far from
>>>> being the default.  That is quite rare.  Even if it was 5 boards, that
>>>> would be under 10%.  That is hardly something to call a default.  If it
>>>> were say 50%, then one could at least argue that the default is moving
>>>> to having two ports.  It's just not the case. 
>>>>
>>>> The sooner you figure that out the better for you. 
>>> And eating rice is the default because so many people do it ...
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>> You can claim that having two ports is the default but that isn't
>> supported by a single fact.  As I said, the only person who thinks it is
>> a default is you.  The default would be set by the manufacturers.  Since
>> what is manufactured has to be sold, one good way to find out what the
>> default is, go look at what is being sold.  When you see something that
>> is common, like say four USB ports, then that is the default.  Another
>> example, if most all boards have five PCI-e slots, then that is the
>> default.  If you want six slots, seven slots or more, then you are
>> likely going to pay extra and have fewer buying options because that is
>> not the default. 
>>
>> Using your logic, no one eats rice since so much of it is grown and
>> sold.  If rice was not grown and not sold, then your logic would work. 
>> So, your post doesn't even make sense.  The manufacturers of boards by a
>> large margin puts one ethernet port on a home use board and even most
>> office computers only need one port.  If one goes and looks at what is
>> being manufactured and sold, they would be able to see that.  Of course,
>> some people can't see it even when several people post the facts.  It
>> seems some will never get the idea. 
> Rice is not eaten much around here, so it's not the default type of
> food.
>
> Besides, people buy what is being manufactured.  If all boards were
> manufactured with 4 ports, it wouldn't stop ppl from buying them, and if
> no rice was grown, it wouldn't stop ppl from eating (if sufficient
> quantities of other types of food were available).
>
>

Rice isn't eaten much around here either.  That IS NOT the point tho. 
The point is that having two ports is not the default.  As I said
before, if what you claim were even remotely true, then board sellers
would be listing boards with two ports by huge numbers.  They are not. 
It is rare even.  Well under 10%, likely less than 5%.  That is FAR from
being a default.  Anyone claiming otherwise is delusional. 

Given your other posts, I've come to the conclusion that you are truly
living in a world that is not based on reality.  You live is some bubble
that you have created where what you think is the only option.  You,
even when shown facts, can not accept anything that doesn't fit in your
little bubble. 

You posted that two ports is the default.  Others and myself posted that
is not correct.  I even went to the trouble to prove it.  Yet here you
are still posting that it is when you have yet to post a SINGLE fact to
back up what you claim.  I posted how I researched it and did so in a
way that you should be able to do the same, and see it for YOURSELF. 
Yet you refuse to even do that.  You are right even when you are proven
to be 100% wrong in your little bubble.  Unless you can prove that
having two ports is the default, by posting links to a major
manufacturers website or a major seller, you are talking BS and nothing
else. There is no point to you posting anything else.  Post proof or you
are wrong.  Get over it.  Back up your claims.  It shouldn't be hard if
you are correct. It took me about 5 to 10 minutes to do my research and
about the same to post it. 

Have a nice day.  Enjoy your little bubble.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:

> lee wrote:
>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> lee wrote:
>>>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> lee wrote:
>>>>>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't go look at boards I had around here.  I went to a major
>>>>>> computer supplier, newegg, and looked at what they had.  Go back and
>>>>>> read again what I did and maybe read it more carefully. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Might I also add, it's more than just me that has pointed out that you
>>>>>> are not correct on this.  It's a few others as well.  You ever stop to
>>>>>> think that what you observe is not the normal and certainly not the
>>>>>> default?  If what you claim was even remotely accurate, newegg would
>>>>>> have had a lot larger number of boards with two ports on it.  Thing is,
>>>>>> they didn't.  Kai pointed out that the same is true in Europe.  
>>>>>> Why would I assume that what someone else observes is a default?
>>>>>> Besides, I don't see what problem you're having with this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Then why would what you observe also be claimed to be the default?   As
>>>>> I also pointed out, it's not just what I observe, it's what I and others
>>>>> have observed as well.  So far, you are the only person claiming that
>>>>> two ports on a home user board is the default.  I have not seen anyone
>>>>> else post that you are correct.  Others have posted that you are not
>>>>> correct tho. 
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem is, you claim that having two ports is the default.  It is
>>>>> not the default.  I've said it, even researched it and explained how I
>>>>> researched it, others have also posted the same point.  Just because you
>>>>> have boards with two ports does not mean it is a default.  Given the
>>>>> research I did, it isn't even close.  Boards with two ports for a home
>>>>> user is not only not the default, it's somewhat rare.  Out of the top 72
>>>>> boards I checked, only a couple or so had two ports.  That is far from
>>>>> being the default.  That is quite rare.  Even if it was 5 boards, that
>>>>> would be under 10%.  That is hardly something to call a default.  If it
>>>>> were say 50%, then one could at least argue that the default is moving
>>>>> to having two ports.  It's just not the case. 
>>>>>
>>>>> The sooner you figure that out the better for you. 
>>>> And eating rice is the default because so many people do it ...
>>>>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>> You can claim that having two ports is the default but that isn't
>>> supported by a single fact.  As I said, the only person who thinks it is
>>> a default is you.  The default would be set by the manufacturers.  Since
>>> what is manufactured has to be sold, one good way to find out what the
>>> default is, go look at what is being sold.  When you see something that
>>> is common, like say four USB ports, then that is the default.  Another
>>> example, if most all boards have five PCI-e slots, then that is the
>>> default.  If you want six slots, seven slots or more, then you are
>>> likely going to pay extra and have fewer buying options because that is
>>> not the default. 
>>>
>>> Using your logic, no one eats rice since so much of it is grown and
>>> sold.  If rice was not grown and not sold, then your logic would work. 
>>> So, your post doesn't even make sense.  The manufacturers of boards by a
>>> large margin puts one ethernet port on a home use board and even most
>>> office computers only need one port.  If one goes and looks at what is
>>> being manufactured and sold, they would be able to see that.  Of course,
>>> some people can't see it even when several people post the facts.  It
>>> seems some will never get the idea. 
>> Rice is not eaten much around here, so it's not the default type of
>> food.
>>
>> Besides, people buy what is being manufactured.  If all boards were
>> manufactured with 4 ports, it wouldn't stop ppl from buying them, and if
>> no rice was grown, it wouldn't stop ppl from eating (if sufficient
>> quantities of other types of food were available).
>>
>>
>
> Rice isn't eaten much around here either.  That IS NOT the point tho. 

By way of your argumentation, it's still the default food.  You're
saying you aren't eating it much.  I would have to conclude that you're
living in a bubble outside of reality.

Or I could simply acknowledge that you have a different default.

> The point is that having two ports is not the default.  As I said
> before, if what you claim were even remotely true, then board sellers
> would be listing boards with two ports by huge numbers.  They are not. 
> It is rare even.  Well under 10%, likely less than 5%.  That is FAR from
> being a default.  Anyone claiming otherwise is delusional. 
>
> Given your other posts, I've come to the conclusion that you are truly
> living in a world that is not based on reality.  You live is some bubble
> that you have created where what you think is the only option.  You,
> even when shown facts, can not accept anything that doesn't fit in your
> little bubble. 
>
> You posted that two ports is the default.  Others and myself posted that
> is not correct.  I even went to the trouble to prove it.  Yet here you
> are still posting that it is when you have yet to post a SINGLE fact to
> back up what you claim.  I posted how I researched it and did so in a
> way that you should be able to do the same, and see it for YOURSELF. 
> Yet you refuse to even do that.  You are right even when you are proven
> to be 100% wrong in your little bubble.  Unless you can prove that
> having two ports is the default, by posting links to a major
> manufacturers website or a major seller, you are talking BS and nothing
> else. There is no point to you posting anything else.  Post proof or you
> are wrong.  Get over it.  Back up your claims.  It shouldn't be hard if
> you are correct. It took me about 5 to 10 minutes to do my research and
> about the same to post it. 
>
> Have a nice day.  Enjoy your little bubble.

Well, I guess you haven't realised yet that reality doesn't exist.
Bubbles are a self-imposed limit for those who believe in reality.
You probably hit that wall and now try hard to remain confined.

Unfortunately, this won't make sense to you until you come to realise.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Dale]

lee wrote:
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> lee wrote:
>>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> lee wrote:
>>>>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> lee wrote:
>>>>>>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I didn't go look at boards I had around here.  I went to a major
>>>>>>> computer supplier, newegg, and looked at what they had.  Go back and
>>>>>>> read again what I did and maybe read it more carefully. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Might I also add, it's more than just me that has pointed out that you
>>>>>>> are not correct on this.  It's a few others as well.  You ever stop to
>>>>>>> think that what you observe is not the normal and certainly not the
>>>>>>> default?  If what you claim was even remotely accurate, newegg would
>>>>>>> have had a lot larger number of boards with two ports on it.  Thing is,
>>>>>>> they didn't.  Kai pointed out that the same is true in Europe.  
>>>>>>> Why would I assume that what someone else observes is a default?
>>>>>>> Besides, I don't see what problem you're having with this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then why would what you observe also be claimed to be the default?   As
>>>>>> I also pointed out, it's not just what I observe, it's what I and others
>>>>>> have observed as well.  So far, you are the only person claiming that
>>>>>> two ports on a home user board is the default.  I have not seen anyone
>>>>>> else post that you are correct.  Others have posted that you are not
>>>>>> correct tho. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem is, you claim that having two ports is the default.  It is
>>>>>> not the default.  I've said it, even researched it and explained how I
>>>>>> researched it, others have also posted the same point.  Just because you
>>>>>> have boards with two ports does not mean it is a default.  Given the
>>>>>> research I did, it isn't even close.  Boards with two ports for a home
>>>>>> user is not only not the default, it's somewhat rare.  Out of the top 72
>>>>>> boards I checked, only a couple or so had two ports.  That is far from
>>>>>> being the default.  That is quite rare.  Even if it was 5 boards, that
>>>>>> would be under 10%.  That is hardly something to call a default.  If it
>>>>>> were say 50%, then one could at least argue that the default is moving
>>>>>> to having two ports.  It's just not the case. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The sooner you figure that out the better for you. 
>>>>> And eating rice is the default because so many people do it ...
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>> You can claim that having two ports is the default but that isn't
>>>> supported by a single fact.  As I said, the only person who thinks it is
>>>> a default is you.  The default would be set by the manufacturers.  Since
>>>> what is manufactured has to be sold, one good way to find out what the
>>>> default is, go look at what is being sold.  When you see something that
>>>> is common, like say four USB ports, then that is the default.  Another
>>>> example, if most all boards have five PCI-e slots, then that is the
>>>> default.  If you want six slots, seven slots or more, then you are
>>>> likely going to pay extra and have fewer buying options because that is
>>>> not the default. 
>>>>
>>>> Using your logic, no one eats rice since so much of it is grown and
>>>> sold.  If rice was not grown and not sold, then your logic would work. 
>>>> So, your post doesn't even make sense.  The manufacturers of boards by a
>>>> large margin puts one ethernet port on a home use board and even most
>>>> office computers only need one port.  If one goes and looks at what is
>>>> being manufactured and sold, they would be able to see that.  Of course,
>>>> some people can't see it even when several people post the facts.  It
>>>> seems some will never get the idea. 
>>> Rice is not eaten much around here, so it's not the default type of
>>> food.
>>>
>>> Besides, people buy what is being manufactured.  If all boards were
>>> manufactured with 4 ports, it wouldn't stop ppl from buying them, and if
>>> no rice was grown, it wouldn't stop ppl from eating (if sufficient
>>> quantities of other types of food were available).
>>>
>>>
>> Rice isn't eaten much around here either.  That IS NOT the point tho. 
> By way of your argumentation, it's still the default food.  You're
> saying you aren't eating it much.  I would have to conclude that you're
> living in a bubble outside of reality.
>
> Or I could simply acknowledge that you have a different default.
>
>> The point is that having two ports is not the default.  As I said
>> before, if what you claim were even remotely true, then board sellers
>> would be listing boards with two ports by huge numbers.  They are not. 
>> It is rare even.  Well under 10%, likely less than 5%.  That is FAR from
>> being a default.  Anyone claiming otherwise is delusional. 
>>
>> Given your other posts, I've come to the conclusion that you are truly
>> living in a world that is not based on reality.  You live is some bubble
>> that you have created where what you think is the only option.  You,
>> even when shown facts, can not accept anything that doesn't fit in your
>> little bubble. 
>>
>> You posted that two ports is the default.  Others and myself posted that
>> is not correct.  I even went to the trouble to prove it.  Yet here you
>> are still posting that it is when you have yet to post a SINGLE fact to
>> back up what you claim.  I posted how I researched it and did so in a
>> way that you should be able to do the same, and see it for YOURSELF. 
>> Yet you refuse to even do that.  You are right even when you are proven
>> to be 100% wrong in your little bubble.  Unless you can prove that
>> having two ports is the default, by posting links to a major
>> manufacturers website or a major seller, you are talking BS and nothing
>> else. There is no point to you posting anything else.  Post proof or you
>> are wrong.  Get over it.  Back up your claims.  It shouldn't be hard if
>> you are correct. It took me about 5 to 10 minutes to do my research and
>> about the same to post it. 
>>
>> Have a nice day.  Enjoy your little bubble.
> Well, I guess you haven't realised yet that reality doesn't exist.
> Bubbles are a self-imposed limit for those who believe in reality.
> You probably hit that wall and now try hard to remain confined.
>
> Unfortunately, this won't make sense to you until you come to realise.
>
>

So, because you THINK two ports is the default, then it is even when you
can't post a single thing to back it up?  Keep in mind, I researched
this and posted how I did it.  That research does NOT support what you
THINK.  The sooner you realize that just because you think something is
the default doesn't make it so, the better for you it will be.  As I
also pointed out, I'm not the only one who says you are wrong.  To this
point, no one else has posted to support your claim either. 

To put it bluntly, two ports is NOT the default and never has been
either.  Based on the research I did, it isn't even going to be the
default anytime soon.  You are wrong, period.  Until you can post a fact
that backs up your claim, you are wrong.  I've said it, others have said
it and yet you are still posting something as fact even when proven to
be wrong. 

Whether you call it a bubble or call it cow crap, you are not posting
facts or even a informed opinion.  I call it BS.  Let me know when you
can post some facts to back up your claim. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:

> lee wrote:
>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> lee wrote:
>>>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> lee wrote:
>>>>>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> lee wrote:
>>>>>>>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't go look at boards I had around here.  I went to a major
>>>>>>>> computer supplier, newegg, and looked at what they had.  Go back and
>>>>>>>> read again what I did and maybe read it more carefully. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Might I also add, it's more than just me that has pointed out that you
>>>>>>>> are not correct on this.  It's a few others as well.  You ever stop to
>>>>>>>> think that what you observe is not the normal and certainly not the
>>>>>>>> default?  If what you claim was even remotely accurate, newegg would
>>>>>>>> have had a lot larger number of boards with two ports on it.  Thing is,
>>>>>>>> they didn't.  Kai pointed out that the same is true in Europe.  
>>>>>>>> Why would I assume that what someone else observes is a default?
>>>>>>>> Besides, I don't see what problem you're having with this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then why would what you observe also be claimed to be the default?   As
>>>>>>> I also pointed out, it's not just what I observe, it's what I and others
>>>>>>> have observed as well.  So far, you are the only person claiming that
>>>>>>> two ports on a home user board is the default.  I have not seen anyone
>>>>>>> else post that you are correct.  Others have posted that you are not
>>>>>>> correct tho. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The problem is, you claim that having two ports is the default.  It is
>>>>>>> not the default.  I've said it, even researched it and explained how I
>>>>>>> researched it, others have also posted the same point.  Just because you
>>>>>>> have boards with two ports does not mean it is a default.  Given the
>>>>>>> research I did, it isn't even close.  Boards with two ports for a home
>>>>>>> user is not only not the default, it's somewhat rare.  Out of the top 72
>>>>>>> boards I checked, only a couple or so had two ports.  That is far from
>>>>>>> being the default.  That is quite rare.  Even if it was 5 boards, that
>>>>>>> would be under 10%.  That is hardly something to call a default.  If it
>>>>>>> were say 50%, then one could at least argue that the default is moving
>>>>>>> to having two ports.  It's just not the case. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The sooner you figure that out the better for you. 
>>>>>> And eating rice is the default because so many people do it ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>> You can claim that having two ports is the default but that isn't
>>>>> supported by a single fact.  As I said, the only person who thinks it is
>>>>> a default is you.  The default would be set by the manufacturers.  Since
>>>>> what is manufactured has to be sold, one good way to find out what the
>>>>> default is, go look at what is being sold.  When you see something that
>>>>> is common, like say four USB ports, then that is the default.  Another
>>>>> example, if most all boards have five PCI-e slots, then that is the
>>>>> default.  If you want six slots, seven slots or more, then you are
>>>>> likely going to pay extra and have fewer buying options because that is
>>>>> not the default. 
>>>>>
>>>>> Using your logic, no one eats rice since so much of it is grown and
>>>>> sold.  If rice was not grown and not sold, then your logic would work. 
>>>>> So, your post doesn't even make sense.  The manufacturers of boards by a
>>>>> large margin puts one ethernet port on a home use board and even most
>>>>> office computers only need one port.  If one goes and looks at what is
>>>>> being manufactured and sold, they would be able to see that.  Of course,
>>>>> some people can't see it even when several people post the facts.  It
>>>>> seems some will never get the idea. 
>>>> Rice is not eaten much around here, so it's not the default type of
>>>> food.
>>>>
>>>> Besides, people buy what is being manufactured.  If all boards were
>>>> manufactured with 4 ports, it wouldn't stop ppl from buying them, and if
>>>> no rice was grown, it wouldn't stop ppl from eating (if sufficient
>>>> quantities of other types of food were available).
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Rice isn't eaten much around here either.  That IS NOT the point tho. 
>> By way of your argumentation, it's still the default food.  You're
>> saying you aren't eating it much.  I would have to conclude that you're
>> living in a bubble outside of reality.
>>
>> Or I could simply acknowledge that you have a different default.
>>
>>> The point is that having two ports is not the default.  As I said
>>> before, if what you claim were even remotely true, then board sellers
>>> would be listing boards with two ports by huge numbers.  They are not. 
>>> It is rare even.  Well under 10%, likely less than 5%.  That is FAR from
>>> being a default.  Anyone claiming otherwise is delusional. 
>>>
>>> Given your other posts, I've come to the conclusion that you are truly
>>> living in a world that is not based on reality.  You live is some bubble
>>> that you have created where what you think is the only option.  You,
>>> even when shown facts, can not accept anything that doesn't fit in your
>>> little bubble. 
>>>
>>> You posted that two ports is the default.  Others and myself posted that
>>> is not correct.  I even went to the trouble to prove it.  Yet here you
>>> are still posting that it is when you have yet to post a SINGLE fact to
>>> back up what you claim.  I posted how I researched it and did so in a
>>> way that you should be able to do the same, and see it for YOURSELF. 
>>> Yet you refuse to even do that.  You are right even when you are proven
>>> to be 100% wrong in your little bubble.  Unless you can prove that
>>> having two ports is the default, by posting links to a major
>>> manufacturers website or a major seller, you are talking BS and nothing
>>> else. There is no point to you posting anything else.  Post proof or you
>>> are wrong.  Get over it.  Back up your claims.  It shouldn't be hard if
>>> you are correct. It took me about 5 to 10 minutes to do my research and
>>> about the same to post it. 
>>>
>>> Have a nice day.  Enjoy your little bubble.
>> Well, I guess you haven't realised yet that reality doesn't exist.
>> Bubbles are a self-imposed limit for those who believe in reality.
>> You probably hit that wall and now try hard to remain confined.
>>
>> Unfortunately, this won't make sense to you until you come to realise.
>>
>>
>
> So, because you THINK two ports is the default, then it is even when you
> can't post a single thing to back it up?  Keep in mind, I researched
> this and posted how I did it.  That research does NOT support what you
> THINK.  The sooner you realize that just because you think something is
> the default doesn't make it so, the better for you it will be.  As I
> also pointed out, I'm not the only one who says you are wrong.  To this
> point, no one else has posted to support your claim either. 
>
> To put it bluntly, two ports is NOT the default and never has been
> either.  Based on the research I did, it isn't even going to be the
> default anytime soon.  You are wrong, period.  Until you can post a fact
> that backs up your claim, you are wrong.  I've said it, others have said
> it and yet you are still posting something as fact even when proven to
> be wrong. 
>
> Whether you call it a bubble or call it cow crap, you are not posting
> facts or even a informed opinion.  I call it BS.  Let me know when you
> can post some facts to back up your claim. 

Like I said, it doesn't make sense to you.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Dale]

lee wrote:
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> lee wrote:
>>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> lee wrote:
>>>>
>>> Well, I guess you haven't realised yet that reality doesn't exist.
>>> Bubbles are a self-imposed limit for those who believe in reality.
>>> You probably hit that wall and now try hard to remain confined.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, this won't make sense to you until you come to realise.
>>>
>>>
>> So, because you THINK two ports is the default, then it is even when you
>> can't post a single thing to back it up?  Keep in mind, I researched
>> this and posted how I did it.  That research does NOT support what you
>> THINK.  The sooner you realize that just because you think something is
>> the default doesn't make it so, the better for you it will be.  As I
>> also pointed out, I'm not the only one who says you are wrong.  To this
>> point, no one else has posted to support your claim either. 
>>
>> To put it bluntly, two ports is NOT the default and never has been
>> either.  Based on the research I did, it isn't even going to be the
>> default anytime soon.  You are wrong, period.  Until you can post a fact
>> that backs up your claim, you are wrong.  I've said it, others have said
>> it and yet you are still posting something as fact even when proven to
>> be wrong. 
>>
>> Whether you call it a bubble or call it cow crap, you are not posting
>> facts or even a informed opinion.  I call it BS.  Let me know when you
>> can post some facts to back up your claim. 
> Like I said, it doesn't make sense to you.
>
>


Because it isn't true or accurate.  It only makes sense if you want to
ignore facts and what is really out in the world being sold and used. 
Again, it is not just me that says this.  Others have posted the same as
me.  It's you who needs to use some sense. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Alan McKinnon]

On 26/12/2016 21:42, lee wrote:
> Well, I guess you haven't realised yet that reality doesn't exist.
> Bubbles are a self-imposed limit for those who believe in reality.
> You probably hit that wall and now try hard to remain confined.
> 
> Unfortunately, this won't make sense to you until you come to realise.


I *strongly* recommend you cease insulting people's intelligence on this
list.

This list (gentoo-user) contains the brightest minds, widest range of
experience (both CS-related and just generally in life), most articulate
and surprisingly, most tolerant, bunch of people I have ever come across
online; and I've been here for 10 years and doing online for 20+ years
and the above is not meant idly.

I can't watch you type and I can't get in your headspace but based just
on what I read from you, your communications say something that is
frankly, very insulting to those individuals. There is no need to
disparage someone else just because their frame of reference differs
from yours.

Alan

p.s. You have a very long way to go still before you begin to match
Dale's contributions here.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> writes:

> On 26/12/2016 21:42, lee wrote:
>> Well, I guess you haven't realised yet that reality doesn't exist.
>> Bubbles are a self-imposed limit for those who believe in reality.
>> You probably hit that wall and now try hard to remain confined.
>> 
>> Unfortunately, this won't make sense to you until you come to realise.
>
>
> I *strongly* recommend you cease insulting people's intelligence on this
> list.

It was not my intention to do that, and if I did, I apologize.

Different people realise different things.  There are many things I will
never realise and others I have.  There are things I won't understand
before I have realised what is necessary to realise to understand them.
Finding that someone won't understand something before they have
realised something doesn't insult anyones intelligence.


> This list (gentoo-user) contains the brightest minds, widest range of
> experience (both CS-related and just generally in life), most articulate
> and surprisingly, most tolerant, bunch of people I have ever come across
> online; and I've been here for 10 years and doing online for 20+ years
> and the above is not meant idly.
>
> I can't watch you type and I can't get in your headspace but based just
> on what I read from you, your communications say something that is
> frankly, very insulting to those individuals. There is no need to
> disparage someone else just because their frame of reference differs
> from yours.
>
> Alan
>
> p.s. You have a very long way to go still before you begin to match
> Dale's contributions here.

So this is supposed to be a competition?

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Alan McKinnon]

On 27/12/2016 01:02, lee wrote:
> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> On 26/12/2016 21:42, lee wrote:
>>> Well, I guess you haven't realised yet that reality doesn't exist.
>>> Bubbles are a self-imposed limit for those who believe in reality.
>>> You probably hit that wall and now try hard to remain confined.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, this won't make sense to you until you come to realise.
>>
>>
>> I *strongly* recommend you cease insulting people's intelligence on this
>> list.
> 
> It was not my intention to do that, and if I did, I apologize.
> 
> Different people realise different things.  There are many things I will
> never realise and others I have.  There are things I won't understand
> before I have realised what is necessary to realise to understand them.
> Finding that someone won't understand something before they have
> realised something doesn't insult anyones intelligence.


OK.

I think you need to step back a little and apply the above to this
situation. By that I mean how you are interacting with others, not the
various questions about systemd, how many NICs a board has in general
and so on.

The results you are getting are far from optimum - you may eventually
get an answer that satisfies you but in general it is involving long
winding threads that frustrate others.

So I suggest you apply reason and investigation to determine why that
might be so.

One highly workable method is when you find yourself taking a contrary
position and about to explain why you think what you think, then reverse
it. Instead, state that you disagree, that you think something else and
invite the other to explain why they are saying what they are saying.
This method has high success in revealing to you what it is you have to
realise first, as you mention above)


> 
> 
>> This list (gentoo-user) contains the brightest minds, widest range of
>> experience (both CS-related and just generally in life), most articulate
>> and surprisingly, most tolerant, bunch of people I have ever come across
>> online; and I've been here for 10 years and doing online for 20+ years
>> and the above is not meant idly.
>>
>> I can't watch you type and I can't get in your headspace but based just
>> on what I read from you, your communications say something that is
>> frankly, very insulting to those individuals. There is no need to
>> disparage someone else just because their frame of reference differs
>> from yours.
>>
>> Alan
>>
>> p.s. You have a very long way to go still before you begin to match
>> Dale's contributions here.
> 
> So this is supposed to be a competition?

No, it's about people and how people communicate concepts and ideas.
It's about how Dale is a long term contributor and people generally
think well of him and how statistically he is right more often than he
is wrong. He's worth paying attention to.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> writes:

> On 27/12/2016 01:02, lee wrote:
>> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> On 26/12/2016 21:42, lee wrote:
>>>> Well, I guess you haven't realised yet that reality doesn't exist.
>>>> Bubbles are a self-imposed limit for those who believe in reality.
>>>> You probably hit that wall and now try hard to remain confined.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, this won't make sense to you until you come to realise.
>>>
>>>
>>> I *strongly* recommend you cease insulting people's intelligence on this
>>> list.
>> 
>> It was not my intention to do that, and if I did, I apologize.
>> 
>> Different people realise different things.  There are many things I will
>> never realise and others I have.  There are things I won't understand
>> before I have realised what is necessary to realise to understand them.
>> Finding that someone won't understand something before they have
>> realised something doesn't insult anyones intelligence.
>
>
> OK.
>
> I think you need to step back a little and apply the above to this
> situation. By that I mean how you are interacting with others, not the
> various questions about systemd, how many NICs a board has in general
> and so on.
>
> The results you are getting are far from optimum - you may eventually
> get an answer that satisfies you but in general it is involving long
> winding threads that frustrate others.
>
> So I suggest you apply reason and investigation to determine why that
> might be so.
>
> One highly workable method is when you find yourself taking a contrary
> position and about to explain why you think what you think, then reverse
> it. Instead, state that you disagree, that you think something else and
> invite the other to explain why they are saying what they are saying.
> This method has high success in revealing to you what it is you have to
> realise first, as you mention above)
>
>
>> 
>> 
>>> This list (gentoo-user) contains the brightest minds, widest range of
>>> experience (both CS-related and just generally in life), most articulate
>>> and surprisingly, most tolerant, bunch of people I have ever come across
>>> online; and I've been here for 10 years and doing online for 20+ years
>>> and the above is not meant idly.
>>>
>>> I can't watch you type and I can't get in your headspace but based just
>>> on what I read from you, your communications say something that is
>>> frankly, very insulting to those individuals. There is no need to
>>> disparage someone else just because their frame of reference differs
>>> from yours.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>> p.s. You have a very long way to go still before you begin to match
>>> Dale's contributions here.
>> 
>> So this is supposed to be a competition?
>
> No, it's about people and how people communicate concepts and ideas.
> It's about how Dale is a long term contributor and people generally
> think well of him and how statistically he is right more often than he
> is wrong. He's worth paying attention to.

I see what you mean.  Dale must be pretty annoyed by me.

Sorry, Dale.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Kai Peter]

> 
> The last time I got a board that didn't have two ports is about 20 
> years
> ago, and I never bought one for 400.  They all just have 2, needed or
> not, even cheap ones.

However, checking out the consumer market (Europe) shows that 1 out of 
10 mobo's has 2 ports usually. I always add(ed) a separate network card, 
even to have better control.

-- 
Sent with eQmail-1.10-dev

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It is even more frustrating that these so-called predictable network
> names actually can change on a reboot, it's happened to me more than
> once when multiple network cards are detected in a different order.

From Kay Sievers in [1]:

<BEGIN>
Btw, predictable means it will not change between reboots, that names
will not depend on enumeration order within the same setup. It does
not mean or promise, that added kernel/driver/firmware features will
not result in different names. That is expected behavior.
</END>

[1] https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2015-October/034614.html

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It is even more frustrating that these so-called predictable network
>> names actually can change on a reboot, it's happened to me more than
>> once when multiple network cards are detected in a different order.
>
>>From Kay Sievers in [1]:
>
> <BEGIN>
> Btw, predictable means it will not change between reboots, that names
> will not depend on enumeration order within the same setup. It does
> not mean or promise, that added kernel/driver/firmware features will
> not result in different names. That is expected behavior.
> </END>
>
> [1] https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2015-October/034614.html

So the names will not change when rebooting and are to be expected to
possibly change at any time.

How is that more reliable?

[gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Martin Vaeth]

lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>
> So the names will not change when rebooting and are to be expected to
> possibly change at any time.

/at any time/when you open the computer and mess around with the hardware/

Your whining in many postings becomes meanwhile unbearable.
Just face the facts:
Unless somebody comes up with an ingenious new idea there are
essentially only 3 possibilities:

1. One gives names in order of detection.

2. One binds the name to the card.

3. One binds the name to general attributes
(e.g. card type, slot type, ...)

4. One binds the name to the slot.

No matter what is chosen, all has big disadvantages:

For 1: The name will reproducible survive a booting _only_ if
(a) There is no other card
(b) There is no other driver which can act as a card
(e.g. IP over firewire)
There are many changes in hard- or software which can cause this
to happen (booting from a rescue CD which has all drivers enabled;
desktop user trying a new kernel; a user in a PC pool plugging
in an USB stick with extra functionality; ...)

My opinion: This is the most unreliable of all solutions and
has much potential of making a distant machine inaccessible
or to confuse unexperienced users.
As far as I understand, one of the main reasons why udev was
written was to avoid these problems.

For 2: It survives rebooting, but it requires manual interaction
(and more important: knowing and thinking about it)
if e.g. the network card breaks and gets exchanged.
This was implemented in previous versions of udev as default,
but the implementation was buggy in a way which could not be
fixed easily because of races. (It could have been fixed by using
another namespace than eth*)

My opinion: Many people have complained about this solution either,
because of the above mentioned problem. Moreover, the above
problem even happens if there is only one card.
It is a pity that udev has removed this possibility completely and
not left it (the variant without the bug) as an option which is
simple to achieve.

For 3: It has the same problems as 1, though they can be mitigated,
since e.g. USB ports or certain known-to-cause-problems drivers can
be treated separately.

My opinion: This is what I use on my machines; however, using it as
a default does not make sense, since it requires pre-knowledge on how
the machine is meant to be used and which hardware is intended to
be used. However, it would be nice, if udev would make it easy to
use such rules (e.g. to have a numbering of all PCI cards in a
certain namespace [e.g. eth_pci*] in the order of their detection);
the problem is that this is not easy to implement without any race
(which was the implementation problem of 2).

For 4: This is the "new" (meanwhile many years old) possiblity of udev
and has been chosen as the default when it was introduced.
It survives booting and even an exchange of a network card and does not
have the problems of 1 and 3, but it changes when you move the card
to a different slot, and the rules are complicated if you do not
know the hardware very well.

My opinion: Only 2 and 4 reliably survive a boot on _any_ hardware
without previous manual configuration. Since 4 is less likely to
cause problems for hardware exchange than 2, this is a sane default.
I would recommend everybody to change to 3 if he can, but for a
generic rescue system or a yet unconfigured system 4 is the correct
choice.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 645 bytes --]

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 06:57:39 +0000 (UTC), Martin Vaeth wrote:

> Your whining in many postings becomes meanwhile unbearable.
> Just face the facts:
> Unless somebody comes up with an ingenious new idea there are
> essentially only 3 possibilities:
> 
> 1. One gives names in order of detection.
> 
> 2. One binds the name to the card.
> 
> 3. One binds the name to general attributes
> (e.g. card type, slot type, ...)
> 
> 4. One binds the name to the slot.

While your argument is well reasoned and convincing, your arithmetic is
somewhat suspect ;-)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I am in total control, but don't tell my wife.

[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Martin Vaeth <martin@mvath.de> writes:

> lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>>
>> So the names will not change when rebooting and are to be expected to
>> possibly change at any time.
>
> /at any time/when you open the computer and mess around with the hardware/

That's not what is said the quote.

> Your whining in many postings becomes meanwhile unbearable.

Ah, again the usual method of bringing up "whining" when someone runs
out of arguments and/or doesn't understand.

> Just face the facts:
> Unless somebody comes up with an ingenious new idea there are
> essentially only 3 possibilities:

I have brought up another idea which you have chosen to ignore.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 9:07 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
> Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> writes:
>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> It is even more frustrating that these so-called predictable network
>>> names actually can change on a reboot, it's happened to me more than
>>> once when multiple network cards are detected in a different order.
>>
>>>From Kay Sievers in [1]:
>>
>> <BEGIN>
>> Btw, predictable means it will not change between reboots, that names
>> will not depend on enumeration order within the same setup. It does
>> not mean or promise, that added kernel/driver/firmware features will
>> not result in different names. That is expected behavior.
>> </END>
>>
>> [1] https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2015-October/034614.html
>
> So the names will not change when rebooting and are to be expected to
> possibly change at any time.
>
> How is that more reliable?

It's more reliable than using the kernel's names because the names
won't change UNLESS there's kernel/driver/firmware change for that
NIC. I doubt that these changes occur that often. Perhaps someone else
knows.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> writes:

> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 9:07 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>> Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It is even more frustrating that these so-called predictable network
>>>> names actually can change on a reboot, it's happened to me more than
>>>> once when multiple network cards are detected in a different order.
>>>
>>>>From Kay Sievers in [1]:
>>>
>>> <BEGIN>
>>> Btw, predictable means it will not change between reboots, that names
>>> will not depend on enumeration order within the same setup. It does
>>> not mean or promise, that added kernel/driver/firmware features will
>>> not result in different names. That is expected behavior.
>>> </END>
>>>
>>> [1] https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2015-October/034614.html
>>
>> So the names will not change when rebooting and are to be expected to
>> possibly change at any time.
>>
>> How is that more reliable?
>
> It's more reliable than using the kernel's names because the names
> won't change UNLESS there's kernel/driver/firmware change for that
> NIC. I doubt that these changes occur that often. Perhaps someone else
> knows.

What happens more often:  That a network card is replaced with a
different one or that the software changes?

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Alan McKinnon]

On 26/12/2016 20:35, lee wrote:
> Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 9:07 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>>> Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It is even more frustrating that these so-called predictable network
>>>>> names actually can change on a reboot, it's happened to me more than
>>>>> once when multiple network cards are detected in a different order.
>>>>
>>>> >From Kay Sievers in [1]:
>>>>
>>>> <BEGIN>
>>>> Btw, predictable means it will not change between reboots, that names
>>>> will not depend on enumeration order within the same setup. It does
>>>> not mean or promise, that added kernel/driver/firmware features will
>>>> not result in different names. That is expected behavior.
>>>> </END>
>>>>
>>>> [1] https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2015-October/034614.html
>>>
>>> So the names will not change when rebooting and are to be expected to
>>> possibly change at any time.
>>>
>>> How is that more reliable?
>>
>> It's more reliable than using the kernel's names because the names
>> won't change UNLESS there's kernel/driver/firmware change for that
>> NIC. I doubt that these changes occur that often. Perhaps someone else
>> knows.
> 
> What happens more often:  That a network card is replaced with a
> different one or that the software changes?
> 


OK, let me try explain this again.

NIC names are tricky, several posters (myself included) have laid out
various methods and options by which it can be done. Experience shows
that in real life the simple traditional names are easy to remember but
prone to changing and (worse) prone to race conditions. Other methods
change less often in reality but the names are somewhat trickier to
remember.

Opinions on these things differ; experience on these things differ and
people's use cases on these things differ greatly. A coder working in
this area has to decide what sort of cases they want to support, what
problems they want to attempt to solve and what new features they want
to introduce; then they have to write the code.

Once the code is written, the coder then has to decide what nomenclature
to use when describing the software and the effects it has. In this case
centered around systemd a word was chosen: "reliable".

Some will think it's a good name, some don't care, some will think it's
a bad name; and all of those things are basically irrelevant because the
name doesn't tell you much abut what the software will do. Reading the
fine manual will tell you that. It's all a part of being human because
our languages are imprecise, heavily overloaded and hugely redundant. So
are our spellings. But we are stuck with it because that's the general
emergent behaviour of a homo sapiens brain.

Arguing abut this is about as nonsensical as arguing about whether "lee"
is a good handle on a forum or not. To a pedant it's a bad name, one
can't tell if you are male, female or if it's actually an Asian family
name....

Or one could do what most folk do, and not see a problem with 3 letters

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[lee]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> writes:

> On 26/12/2016 20:35, lee wrote:
>> Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 9:07 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>>>> Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is even more frustrating that these so-called predictable network
>>>>>> names actually can change on a reboot, it's happened to me more than
>>>>>> once when multiple network cards are detected in a different order.
>>>>>
>>>>> >From Kay Sievers in [1]:
>>>>>
>>>>> <BEGIN>
>>>>> Btw, predictable means it will not change between reboots, that names
>>>>> will not depend on enumeration order within the same setup. It does
>>>>> not mean or promise, that added kernel/driver/firmware features will
>>>>> not result in different names. That is expected behavior.
>>>>> </END>
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2015-October/034614.html
>>>>
>>>> So the names will not change when rebooting and are to be expected to
>>>> possibly change at any time.
>>>>
>>>> How is that more reliable?
>>>
>>> It's more reliable than using the kernel's names because the names
>>> won't change UNLESS there's kernel/driver/firmware change for that
>>> NIC. I doubt that these changes occur that often. Perhaps someone else
>>> knows.
>> 
>> What happens more often:  That a network card is replaced with a
>> different one or that the software changes?
>> 
>
>
> OK, let me try explain this again.
>
> NIC names are tricky, several posters (myself included) have laid out
> various methods and options by which it can be done. Experience shows
> that in real life the simple traditional names are easy to remember but
> prone to changing and (worse) prone to race conditions. Other methods
> change less often in reality but the names are somewhat trickier to
> remember.
>
> Opinions on these things differ; experience on these things differ and
> people's use cases on these things differ greatly. A coder working in
> this area has to decide what sort of cases they want to support, what
> problems they want to attempt to solve and what new features they want
> to introduce; then they have to write the code.
>
> Once the code is written, the coder then has to decide what nomenclature
> to use when describing the software and the effects it has. In this case
> centered around systemd a word was chosen: "reliable".
>
> Some will think it's a good name, some don't care, some will think it's
> a bad name; and all of those things are basically irrelevant because the
> name doesn't tell you much abut what the software will do. Reading the
> fine manual will tell you that. It's all a part of being human because
> our languages are imprecise, heavily overloaded and hugely redundant. So
> are our spellings. But we are stuck with it because that's the general
> emergent behaviour of a homo sapiens brain.
>
> Arguing abut this is about as nonsensical as arguing about whether "lee"
> is a good handle on a forum or not. To a pedant it's a bad name, one
> can't tell if you are male, female or if it's actually an Asian family
> name....
>
> Or one could do what most folk do, and not see a problem with 3 letters

I agree.

What I don't agree with is that unrecognisable names generally make
things easier (though they can, depending on the circumstances).

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tom H]

On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 1:35 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
> Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> writes:
>> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 9:07 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>>>
>>> How is that more reliable?
>>
>> It's more reliable than using the kernel's names because the names
>> won't change UNLESS there's kernel/driver/firmware change for that
>> NIC. I doubt that these changes occur that often. Perhaps someone else
>> knows.
>
> What happens more often: That a network card is replaced with a
> different one or that the software changes?

In my experience the former. But it's just my experience...

I've also not come across a kernel//driver/firmware change on a system.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Tanstaafl]

On 12/19/2016 1:15 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
> "Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> writes:
> 
>> Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
>> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.

> Since 10 years or so, the default is two ports.

Not sure where you buy your machines, but that is simply wrong. The vast
majority of *home* users machines are single port machines.

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Alan McKinnon]

On 20/12/2016 19:04, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 12/19/2016 1:15 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>> "Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> writes:
>>
>>> Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
>>> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.
> 
>> Since 10 years or so, the default is two ports.
> 
> Not sure where you buy your machines, but that is simply wrong. The vast
> majority of *home* users machines are single port machines.
> 
> 

and every rack server I've bought or worked on in the last 10 years has
been quad-nic


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Daniel Frey]

On 12/20/2016 09:12 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 20/12/2016 19:04, Tanstaafl wrote:
>> On 12/19/2016 1:15 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
>>> "Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
>>>> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.
>>
>>> Since 10 years or so, the default is two ports.
>>
>> Not sure where you buy your machines, but that is simply wrong. The vast
>> majority of *home* users machines are single port machines.
>>
>>
> 
> and every rack server I've bought or worked on in the last 10 years has
> been quad-nic
> 
> 

The rack server I bought last year had two onboard ports, one was a
maintenance port only, with the option of a quad-card add on. (From what
I remember.)

Dan

Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[Michael Mol]

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On Tuesday, December 20, 2016 7:12:14 PM EST Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 20/12/2016 19:04, Tanstaafl wrote:
> > On 12/19/2016 1:15 PM, lee <lee@yagibdah.de> wrote:
> >> "Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> writes:
> >>> Similarly, the vast majority of home users have a machine with one
> >>> ethernet port, and in the past it's always been eth0.
> >> 
> >> Since 10 years or so, the default is two ports.
> > 
> > Not sure where you buy your machines, but that is simply wrong. The vast
> > majority of *home* users machines are single port machines.
> 
> and every rack server I've bought or worked on in the last 10 years has
> been quad-nic

My DL160s have 2x1GbE NICs each and a 1GbE NIC for OOB access, while my DL360s 
have 4x1GbE NICs and the single for OOB access. My old BL460cs had 2x1GbE 
connectivity.

But as far as home hardware, most pre-assembled home desktops I've seen any 
given year since 1998or so, have come with a single Ethernet port. The 
motherboards available for self-assembled PCs have usually had 2x1GbE since 
roughly 2005, IIRC.

So, enthusiast systems (who else builds their own?) will usually have a pair 
of Ethernet ports, while the cheap desktop systems will usually only have a 
single port.

Most casual user home desktop systems, IME, have been getting replaced with 
laptops and tablets, though, so you could argue that the home desktops that 
remain, over time, have tended more and more to be the self-assembled or 
enthusiast-built systems, and thus you tend to see desktop systems with 
multiple Ethernet ports more than with singles.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Firefox 49.0 & Youtube....Video: Yes - Audio: No...

[Alarig Le Lay]

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On Sat Oct 15 20:27:43 2016, Meino.Cramer@gmx.de wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> this evening I updated GENTOO and a new firefox was installed.
> This one seem completly to disable flash video finally...
> since I got no video/audio at all.
> 
> I disabled all flash-related addons of my firefox and
> restarted  it.
> 
> Now I got a video ... but without any audio.
> (I am running jackd by the way).
> I check with qjackctl whether there were any
> ports which I missed to connect...nothing.
> 
> Hmmm...
> 
> Is there any fix for that?

Hi, I had the same problem today (well, the problem was really old, but
it was the first time I tried to play audio in firefox since 45).

If I play the file from mpv, it works, from firefox, no sound.
I added the ffmpeg useflag and it works again now. I still use pure ALSA
as sound stack.

$ equery uses www-client/firefox | grep +
+dbus
+ffmpeg
+gmp-autoupdate
+gstreamer
+hwaccel
+jemalloc3
+jit
+l10n_fr
+startup-notification

-- 
alarig

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Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No

[andymenderunix]

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-------- Original message --------From: lee <lee@yagibdah.de> Date: 24/12/2016  03:07  (GMT+01:00) To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] from Firefox52: NO pure ALSA?, WAS: Firefox 49.0 & Youtube... Audio: No 
Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It is even more frustrating that these so-called predictable network
>> names actually can change on a reboot, it's happened to me more than
>> once when multiple network cards are detected in a different order.
>
>>From Kay Sievers in [1]:
>
> <BEGIN>
> Btw, predictable means it will not change between reboots, that names
> will not depend on enumeration order within the same setup. It does
> not mean or promise, that added kernel/driver/firmware features will
> not result in different names. That is expected behavior.
> </END>
>
> [1] >https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives>/systemd-devel/2015->October/034614.html

>So the names will not change when >rebooting and are to be expected to
>possibly change at any time.

>How is that more reliable?
Did you read the reply in the link properly? The ethernet device naming of the OP changed due to differences in the kernel .config. This IS expected behavior and is out of the scope of predictable network interface naming.
Also, could we drop the constant bickering from the mailing list? What once was a legit discussion on Firefox removing ALSA support turned into another whining spree, "because systemd is evil". Don't like it? Don't use it. End of story.
Cheers,Andrew

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