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R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+mx]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[confabulate@kintzios.com] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4E4841E0009 X-Archives-Salt: a4545d10-c894-49c2-bc39-6a1e56fcf946 X-Archives-Hash: 49ba417c76f0ff3d6def11c097bc2f89 --nextPart1821639.VLH7GnMWUR Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; protected-headers="v1" From: Michael To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-To: confabulate@kintzios.com Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2025 10:31:19 +0000 Message-ID: <6031675.MhkbZ0Pkbq@rogueboard> In-Reply-To: <35c4444d-446e-d9ca-7ead-8129c0d77595@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 On Saturday, 8 March 2025 22:48:29 Greenwich Mean Time Dale wrote: > Frank Steinmetzger wrote: > > Am Thu, Feb 20, 2025 at 11:40:48PM +0100 schrieb Frank Steinmetzger: > >> Another thing to consider: don=E2=80=99t put it into the safe for a ye= ar without > >> powering it up. As was explained in a previous mail, QLC uses sixteen > >> different levels of charge inside one single flash cell. The chance of= a > >> bit flip increases the longer the SSD is powerless and charge slowly > >> (very slowly) dissipates. It=E2=80=99s hard to find exact numbers, and= it=E2=80=99s more > >> of a statistical question. Could be a research topic for a slow Sunday. > >> ;-) Also, don=E2=80=99t you live in a hot area? > >=20 > > I knew I=E2=80=99ve seen this data in the past, but couldn=E2=80=99t re= meber where and in > > what context. I just stumbled upon the relevant info again. > >=20 > > If you search for "jedec temperature and data retention" you find this > > PDF: > > https://www.jedec.org/sites/default/files/Alvin_Cox%20%5BCompatibility%= 20M > > ode%5D_0.pdf > >=20 > > It contains establised standard values for flash durability. On slide 28 > > it > > says: > > Client-class SSDs should retain their data w/o power for 1 year if used > > 8 hours/day at 40 =C2=B0C and kept at or below 30 =C2=B0C when off. > > There is also a table for other temperatures; the time is cut in half f= or > > 5 degrees more. > >=20 > > Mind you, that PDF is 15 years old, TLS had just been released to the > > public one year earlier according to > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-level_cell#Triple-level_cell > >=20 > > -- Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe | Greetings | Salut | Qapla=E2=80=99 Please do not s= hare anything > > from, with or about me on any social network. Some are so convinced, > > they don=E2=80=99t even know anymore of what. >=20 > That is confusing. Data should be OK for one year without power but > only if powered 8 hours per day. Me scratches my head. Maybe it means > should be OK for a year without power and not sure what to think about > rest.=20 As I understand it these are two different performance requirements, which= =20 were stipulated in this proposed standard back in 2010. The first, "Active Use (power on)", describes the level of performance on a= =20 typical client workload and operating environment, 8hrs/day at 40=C2=B0C. = I don't=20 know if this is controller temperature, NAND flash cell temperature, device= =20 sensor temperature, PC case temperature, or room temperature. The actual=20 standard document would explain this, as well as the method for measuring i= t. =20 Meanwhile, I note my NVMe SSD's sensor tells me the drive is idling at 45.8= =C2=B0C=20 as I write this. o_O The second, "Retention Use (power off)", sets a limit of 1 year @30=C2=B0C. The FFR and UBER thresholds apply to *both* of the above. > I suspect that things have changed a lot in that time frame despite the > confusion. They may have improved things significantly since then.=20 Hmm ... I wouldn't take this to the bank. Standards are typically formulat= ed=20 following consultation with industry to establish the art of the possible, = but=20 without cutting too much slack on manufacturers so as to promote innovation= =20 and improvement. The manufacturers seek to minimise overall costs, while=20 keeping their head above the thresholds stated in the standard. So there's= a=20 tension right there, which hopefully delivers innovation and ideally lowers= =20 costs over time - but it does not necessarily improve performance. Check h= ow=20 quality of USB flash drives has gone south over the years, following the=20 trajectory of their price. The move from SLC to QLC has been effective in reducing costs, but at some= =20 point the limits of physics will constrain performance. It would be=20 interesting to dig out the latest JEDEC standard and compare thresholds to = see=20 how they may have improved with more modern manufacturing methods. > Still, if the one year part, less the other part, is accurate then but > better now, then my powering up even once a month should be OK. I only > need to worry about if something happens to me and no one touches it for > many months, a year or longer.=20 Given the temperature of the device would probably be below 30=C2=B0C for a= t least=20 half of the year in day time and most nights, I would think your data will = be=20 fine. :-) I have a 11 year old Toshiba OCZ SSD, which gave me a scare a week ago. It= =20 reported an I/O error, dmesg showed it being inaccessible - I can't remembe= r=20 the exact error. I thought it was game up with this drive, but surprisingl= y=20 following my reseating the SATA cable and a reboot later it has worked with= out=20 further complaints. With reports of OCZ drives failing at an alarming rate= =20 more than a decade ago, I am happy it has lasted this long. --nextPart1821639.VLH7GnMWUR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. 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