[gentoo-user] [OT]UPS battery dead?

[gentoo-user] [OT]UPS battery dead?

[maxim wexler]

Hi group,

Lookee here:

kyzyl linux # apcaccess status
APC      : 001,034,0852
DATE     : Tue Apr 28 19:26:47 MDT 2009
HOSTNAME : kyzyl
RELEASE  : 3.12.4
VERSION  : 3.12.4 (19 August 2006) gentoo
UPSNAME  : kyzyl
CABLE    : USB Cable
MODEL    : Back-UPS ES 350
UPSMODE  : Stand Alone
STARTTIME: Tue Apr 28 15:47:20 MDT 2009
STATUS   : ONLINE
LINEV    : 120.0 Volts
LOADPCT  :  71.0 Percent Load Capacity
BCHARGE  : 100.0 Percent
TIMELEFT :   2.8 Minutes
MBATTCHG : 5 Percent
MINTIMEL : 3 Minutes
MAXTIME  : 0 Seconds
LOTRANS  : 088.0 Volts
HITRANS  : 139.0 Volts
ALARMDEL : Always
BATTV    : 13.4 Volts
LASTXFER : Input frequency out of range
NUMXFERS : 0
TONBATT  : 0 seconds
CUMONBATT: 0 seconds
XOFFBATT : N/A
STATFLAG : 0x07000008 Status Flag
MANDATE  : 2007-10-16
SERIALNO : 3B0742X02836
BATTDATE : 2000-00-00
NOMBATTV :  12.0
FIRMWARE : 23.B1.D USB FW:B1
APCMODEL : Back-UPS ES 350
END APC  : Tue Apr 28 19:27:34 MDT 2009

Only 2.8mins left? The UPS unit, fairly common I suspect, is a Back-UPS ES 350 and less than a year old. It only saw service once last year during an electric storm when the house power failed for a few minutes. Why isn't it charging. Or is it? It says BATTDATE 2000-00-00. Huh?

I'd like to test it further but the apcupsd manual recommends at least 5mins time left. If I just unplug it from the back of the PC, will it charge? Is the battery caput?

Maxim 


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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT]UPS battery dead?

[Eric Martin]

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maxim wexler wrote:
> Only 2.8mins left? The UPS unit, fairly common I suspect, is a Back-UPS ES 350 and less than a year old. It only saw service once last year during an electric storm when the house power failed for a few minutes. Why isn't it charging. Or is it? It says BATTDATE 2000-00-00. Huh?
>
> I'd like to test it further but the apcupsd manual recommends at least 5mins time left. If I just unplug it from the back of the PC, will it charge? Is the battery caput?
>
> Maxim
I had a similar problem at work (but with the windows client).  APC told
me to charge the UPS overnight with 0 load and then see what that run
time is after performing a self test.


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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT]UPS battery dead?

[Mark Knecht]

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 6:40 PM, maxim wexler <blissfix@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hi group,
>
> Lookee here:
>
> kyzyl linux # apcaccess status
> APC      : 001,034,0852
> DATE     : Tue Apr 28 19:26:47 MDT 2009
> HOSTNAME : kyzyl
> RELEASE  : 3.12.4
> VERSION  : 3.12.4 (19 August 2006) gentoo
> UPSNAME  : kyzyl
> CABLE    : USB Cable
> MODEL    : Back-UPS ES 350
> UPSMODE  : Stand Alone
> STARTTIME: Tue Apr 28 15:47:20 MDT 2009
> STATUS   : ONLINE
> LINEV    : 120.0 Volts
> LOADPCT  :  71.0 Percent Load Capacity
> BCHARGE  : 100.0 Percent
> TIMELEFT :   2.8 Minutes
> MBATTCHG : 5 Percent
> MINTIMEL : 3 Minutes
> MAXTIME  : 0 Seconds
> LOTRANS  : 088.0 Volts
> HITRANS  : 139.0 Volts
> ALARMDEL : Always
> BATTV    : 13.4 Volts
> LASTXFER : Input frequency out of range
> NUMXFERS : 0
> TONBATT  : 0 seconds
> CUMONBATT: 0 seconds
> XOFFBATT : N/A
> STATFLAG : 0x07000008 Status Flag
> MANDATE  : 2007-10-16
> SERIALNO : 3B0742X02836
> BATTDATE : 2000-00-00
> NOMBATTV :  12.0
> FIRMWARE : 23.B1.D USB FW:B1
> APCMODEL : Back-UPS ES 350
> END APC  : Tue Apr 28 19:27:34 MDT 2009
>
> Only 2.8mins left? The UPS unit, fairly common I suspect, is a Back-UPS ES 350 and less than a year old. It only saw service once last year during an electric storm when the house power failed for a few minutes. Why isn't it charging. Or is it? It says BATTDATE 2000-00-00. Huh?
>
> I'd like to test it further but the apcupsd manual recommends at least 5mins time left. If I just unplug it from the back of the PC, will it charge? Is the battery caput?
>
> Maxim

Unplug all your electronic devices and plug in a lamp with a 100 Watt
incandescent light build. With the lamp on unplug the UPS from the
wall and see what happens. If the battery is dead it won't last all
that long.

I've had batteries last for 5 years, and I've had others die after 1-2
years. 2000-00-00 obviously isn't real. That's a software glitch.

- Mark

[gentoo-user] Re: [OT]UPS battery dead?

[James]

maxim wexler <blissfix <at> yahoo.com> writes:

group,

> Only 2.8mins left? The UPS unit, fairly common I suspect, is a Back-UPS ES 350
and less than a year old. It only
> saw service once last year during an electric storm when the house power
failed for a few minutes. Why isn't
> it charging. Or is it? 


13.4 volts looks good on a 12V battery. I'm not sure I'd trust all the numbers.

One easy thing to do is to, just swap in another (hopfully 7AH) 
standard 12V battery), give it a few days, and see what the numbers
say. If you have lots of UPS's then getting a low cost 12V batter
tester for 'Jell-Cell' batteries is not a bad idea. If you see signs
of corrosion, toss the battery to the nearest recycle agency near
you.


It says BATTDATE 2000-00-00. Huh?

Ignore. This looks like a default firmware value if not is correctly
entered during manufacture or by the person that does maintenance.
Some firewares include it, but the manufacture does not have a 
software application, where the info can be updated. 
Gel-Cell batteries are not smart (i.e. no microp) so there is no
way for the battery to provide this info, to the UPS firmware.
It's gimmickery.





> I'd like to test it further but the apcupsd manual recommends at least 5mins
time left. 



I'd use manual testing techniques with the battery removed from the ups.
You could have leaky or degraded circuitry in the ups. I canabalize
old ups for good circuits and batteries and such. If you have
several similar models you can do the same. Best to buy UPS in
qty 2 or more to cannabalize parts. Never by a ups that does not
use the standard 7AH or multiples of that standard battery. The further
away from those batteries you get, the more you'll get 'ripped'
at replacement time. One more thing. The smaller UPSs are of poor 
quality. I usually never bay an ups with less than 1KVA rating,
although 800VA seem to be OK. The smaller ones just dye as the
electronic swithcing circuits (how AC is made from DC) are just
crappy and often fry or fatigue. Try not to run a UPS at more than
40% of the duty cycle, if you want it to last very long.

Hooking up any arrangement of AC lighting will allow you to see how the
battery performs over test intervals of 5,10,20,30 minutes.  An amp meter,
the kind that clamps around the power cord will give you the current
draw of the load. From those numbers and the measured voltage
across the battery, you can plot performance curves. After you do
a few batteries, you can just watch the lights and pretty much 
tell if a battery is cooked. Battery testers are also cool, and convenient.


If you are in the US, here is a great supplier for replacement batteries.
They have an 8AH replacement of the standard 7AH battery 
(same form factor) that is usually less expensive, better quality 
and will give you a 1/7 longer life, nominally,

Battery Wholesale Dist.
40120 Industrial Park Circle
Georgetown, TX 78626

800 365 8444  not sure the website...



hth,

James

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT]UPS battery dead?

[maxim wexler]

> Unplug all your electronic devices and plug in a lamp with
> a 100 Watt
> incandescent light build. With the lamp on unplug the UPS
> from the
> wall and see what happens. If the battery is dead it won't
> last all
> that long.

Gave ~5 mins. So I let it charge for 24 hrs now it gives me 36 mins. Which is wierd; what happened to all that charge? I haven't had to use it for 6-7 mons. Isn't the unit supposed to stay topped-up?

Another thing: When I do the remove-the-usb-cable test I don't see the "communication lost" error in apcupsd.events until I switch the dial-up off and on quickly!

In the conf file I have DEVICE: /dev/ttyS[0-3] because the default, /dev/ttyS0, locks out the modem. But why does the UPS need to know about serial ports? It connects by this funny RJ-45/USB cable. I wonder does the manufacturer assume the serial port won't be used?

mw




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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT]UPS battery dead?

[Mark Knecht]

On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:31 AM, maxim wexler <blissfix@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Unplug all your electronic devices and plug in a lamp with
>> a 100 Watt
>> incandescent light build. With the lamp on unplug the UPS
>> from the
>> wall and see what happens. If the battery is dead it won't
>> last all
>> that long.
>
> Gave ~5 mins. So I let it charge for 24 hrs now it gives me 36 mins. Which is wierd; what happened to all that charge? I haven't had to use it for 6-7 mons. Isn't the unit supposed to stay topped-up?

Well, assuming it was a 100 Watt incandescent that really draws 100
Watts, then that's probably 1/2 to 1/3 the draw of a typical desktop
PC implying you would get 12-18 minutes before shutdown. (Really rough
ideas - just numbers, etc. Don't take it too seriously.)

These batteries have a limited lifetime and they need to be charged up
if they haven't been used in a while.

From the APC Forums an APC representative posted the following. Note #3:

[QUOTE]

Most APC batteries should last three to five years. Below are some
guidelines to ensure optimum life expectancy:

***Some APC Back UPS models may have a shorter battery life
expectancy. Please reference the user's manual of your APC Back UPS to
determine the exact battery life expectancy.

1. Make sure that you keep your APC UPS in a cool, dry location with
plenty of ventilation. Ideally, the temperature where your UPS is kept
should not exceed 75° F (24° C). Also, for ventilation purposes, leave
roughly one to two inches on each side for proper airflow.

2. Only perform runtime calibrations on your UPS one or two times a
year, if necessary. Some of our customers want to check their systems
to verify that their runtime is sufficient. However, consistently
performing these calibrations can significantly decrease the life
expectancy of your APC battery.

3. Do not store APC batteries for extended periods of time. New
batteries can be stored for 6 to 12 months. After this period, the
battery should be used or it will lose a great deal of its charge. It
is not advisable to store batteries that have already been in use.

4. Do not exceed 80 percent of a UPS unit’s rated capacity due to the
reduction in run time. When you increase your load, your runtime
lessens. In the event of a power failure, a UPS loaded to full
capacity will drain and discharge it’s battery quickly and will lessen
the life expectancy.

[/QUOTE]

>
> Another thing: When I do the remove-the-usb-cable test I don't see the "communication lost" error in apcupsd.events until I switch the dial-up off and on quickly!
>
> In the conf file I have DEVICE: /dev/ttyS[0-3] because the default, /dev/ttyS0, locks out the modem. But why does the UPS need to know about serial ports? It connects by this funny RJ-45/USB cable. I wonder does the manufacturer assume the serial port won't be used?

Strange stuff but above my pay grade...

- Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT]UPS battery dead?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:31:45 -0700 (PDT), maxim wexler wrote:

> In the conf file I have DEVICE: /dev/ttyS[0-3] because the
> default, /dev/ttyS0, locks out the modem. But why does the UPS need to
> know about serial ports? It connects by this funny RJ-45/USB cable. I
> wonder does the manufacturer assume the serial port won't be used?

If it's connected by USB, the device should be /dev/ttyUSB0 but the
software should detect this for itself. The relevant lines from my
apcupsd.conf are

UPSCABLE usb
UPSTYPE usb
DEVICE 


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Das Internet is nicht fuer gefingerclicken und giffengrabben. Ist easy
droppenpacket der routers und overloaden der backbone mit der spammen
und der me-tooen. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das
mausklicken sichtseeren keepen das bandwit-spewin hans in das pockets
muss; relaxen und watchen das cursorblinken.

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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT]UPS battery dead?

[Eric Martin]

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Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:31 AM, maxim wexler <blissfix@yahoo.com> wrote:
>   
>>     
>>> Unplug all your electronic devices and plug in a lamp with
>>> a 100 Watt
>>> incandescent light build. With the lamp on unplug the UPS
>>> from the
>>> wall and see what happens. If the battery is dead it won't
>>> last all
>>> that long.
>>>       
>> Gave ~5 mins. So I let it charge for 24 hrs now it gives me 36 mins. Which is wierd; what happened to all that charge? I haven't had to use it for 6-7 mons. Isn't the unit supposed to stay topped-up?
>>     
>
> Well, assuming it was a 100 Watt incandescent that really draws 100
> Watts, then that's probably 1/2 to 1/3 the draw of a typical desktop
> PC implying you would get 12-18 minutes before shutdown. (Really rough
> ideas - just numbers, etc. Don't take it too seriously.)
>
>   
snip
>> Another thing: When I do the remove-the-usb-cable test I don't see the "communication lost" error in apcupsd.events until I switch the dial-up off and on quickly!
>>
>> In the conf file I have DEVICE: /dev/ttyS[0-3] because the default, /dev/ttyS0, locks out the modem. But why does the UPS need to know about serial ports? It connects by this funny RJ-45/USB cable. I wonder does the manufacturer assume the serial port won't be used?
>>     
>
> Strange stuff but above my pay grade...
>
> - Mark
>
>   

It's not supposed to say DEVICE /dev/ttyS0 for USB, it should just be
blank as per /etc/apcupsd/apcupsd.conf


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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT]UPS battery dead?

[maxim wexler]

   
> 
> It's not supposed to say DEVICE /dev/ttyS0 for USB, it
> should just be
> blank as per /etc/apcupsd/apcupsd.conf

Previously I had v.3.14 which I had installed from a tarball; now I'm using 3.12 installed via portage. And even though in both cases the conf file defaults to UPSTYPE usb the DEVICE has been listed as /dev/ttyS0. 3.14 complained it couldn't read the port whatever I put for DEVICE, /dev/ttyS0 or /dev/ttyS[0-3] or leaving just DEVICE followed by a blank. Now at least #apcaccess status reports something besides an error.

mw


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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT]UPS battery dead?

[maxim wexler]

 The relevant lines
> from my
> apcupsd.conf are
> 

Yep, that's what I got.
> UPSCABLE usb
> UPSTYPE usb
DEVICE <blank> didn't work in v3.14 for me. Now, with v3.12, this might change. I'll give it a whirl.
> DEVICE 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Neil Bothwick
> 
> Das Internet is nicht fuer gefingerclicken und
> giffengrabben. Ist easy
> droppenpacket der routers und overloaden der backbone mit
> der spammen
> und der me-tooen. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das
> dumpkopfen. Das
> mausklicken sichtseeren keepen das bandwit-spewin hans in
> das pockets
> muss; relaxen und watchen das cursorblinken.
> 


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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT]UPS battery dead?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:56:06 -0700 (PDT), maxim wexler wrote:

> > UPSCABLE usb
> > UPSTYPE usb  
> DEVICE <blank> didn't work in v3.14 for me. Now, with v3.12, this might
> change. I'll give it a whirl.
> > DEVICE 

I'm using 3.14.5-r2.

Post your complete configuration file.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere.

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