[gentoo-user] Yikes, replacing sata 200gb with Sata 750gb .. no bootsky.

[gentoo-user] Yikes, replacing sata 200gb with Sata 750gb .. no bootsky.

[Harry Putnam]

Setup: 
  amd Athlon64 +3400 architecture

I'm attempting to replace 2 200gb sata drives with 2 750 gb drives.

All drives concerned are WD.

And the 2 200gb are attached to a:
Adeptec 1205sa PCI sata card (non-raid)

The two existing drives have been  working fine but need more room so
replacing with 2 750gb.

I thought I'd try replacing one first and see how it went.

I hit a snag on the first swap.  Pulled out the 200gb and inserted a
750 but it turns out that the new drive, unlike my older 200gb drives
does not have the old 4pin power connector that I expected.

I see some other connectors in the wiring harness that look like they
go to the larger (non-data) fitting on these new sata drives.  Its
about twice as wide as the data plug but has the same little 90 degree
hook on one end.

The matching plugs on the wiring harness appear to be made for this so
I go ahead and plug it in, and fire up the machine.

As boot up proceeds it gets by the brief memory check then comes a
screen saying:

  Press F3 to enter configuration utility
  Primary channel: WDC WD750-blah-bah   <= my new 750gb drive

So I guess this is coming from the Adeptec 1205sa card and press
F3... but nothing happens, and no further progress appears possible.

Rebooting and ignoring the `Press F3' screen doesn't allow boot to
proceed either.

So I appear to be stuck and unable to boot up.

The boot disk is not on sata and is not involved in the swap.

Anyone see anthing similar or have a suggestion.

Re: [gentoo-user] Yikes, replacing sata 200gb with Sata 750gb .. no bootsky.

[Anthony Metcalf]

Harry Putnam wrote:
> Setup: 
>   amd Athlon64 +3400 architecture
>
> I'm attempting to replace 2 200gb sata drives with 2 750 gb drives.
>
> All drives concerned are WD.
>
> And the 2 200gb are attached to a:
> Adeptec 1205sa PCI sata card (non-raid)
>
> The two existing drives have been  working fine but need more room so
> replacing with 2 750gb.
>
> I thought I'd try replacing one first and see how it went.
>
> I hit a snag on the first swap.  Pulled out the 200gb and inserted a
> 750 but it turns out that the new drive, unlike my older 200gb drives
> does not have the old 4pin power connector that I expected.
>
> I see some other connectors in the wiring harness that look like they
> go to the larger (non-data) fitting on these new sata drives.  Its
> about twice as wide as the data plug but has the same little 90 degree
> hook on one end.
>
> The matching plugs on the wiring harness appear to be made for this so
> I go ahead and plug it in, and fire up the machine.
>
> As boot up proceeds it gets by the brief memory check then comes a
> screen saying:
>
>   Press F3 to enter configuration utility
>   Primary channel: WDC WD750-blah-bah   <= my new 750gb drive
>
> So I guess this is coming from the Adeptec 1205sa card and press
> F3... but nothing happens, and no further progress appears possible.
>
> Rebooting and ignoring the `Press F3' screen doesn't allow boot to
> proceed either.
>
> So I appear to be stuck and unable to boot up.
>
> The boot disk is not on sata and is not involved in the swap.
>
> Anyone see anthing similar or have a suggestion.
>
>
>   
Sounds like the bios is seeing the drives in a different order now to
before, and so is trying to boot from the wrong disk....

Can you manually alter the order it tries disks?

Re: [gentoo-user] Yikes, replacing sata 200gb with Sata 750gb .. no bootsky.

[Paul Hartman]

On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 10:09 AM, Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> wrote:
> Setup:
>  amd Athlon64 +3400 architecture
>
> I'm attempting to replace 2 200gb sata drives with 2 750 gb drives.

Make sure your boot partition is not too far from the beginning of the disk.

[gentoo-user] Re: Yikes, replacing sata 200gb with Sata 750gb .. no bootsky.

[Harry Putnam]

Anthony Metcalf <nevyn@anferny.me.uk> writes:

> Harry Putnam wrote:

[...]

>>   
> Sounds like the bios is seeing the drives in a different order now to
> before, and so is trying to boot from the wrong disk....
>
> Can you manually alter the order it tries disks?

I can, and it is set directly to boot from master on first IDE
controller.  I haven't changed or messed with that in the course of
this swap.  So seems unlikely the bios has confused between IDE
controller where the boot disk is, and PCI sata controller where the
swap is taking place.

It looked to me like the message would becoming from that PCI sata
controller. 

"
  Press F3 to enter configuration utility
  Primary channel: WDC WD750-blah-bah "  <= my new 750gb drive

That doesn't look like something coming from the normal bios does it?
The disk referred to is the new added one, of 2 on a PCI sata
controller.  And I've seen this message without a disk reference,
every time I boot. 
  
  Press F3 to enter configuration utility

I've just ignored it and booting was fine.  But now there is a disk
reference and bootup stops there.

Paul Hartman <paul.hartman+gentoo@gmail.com> writes:

> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 10:09 AM, Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> wrote:
>> Setup:
>>  amd Athlon64 +3400 architecture
>>
>> I'm attempting to replace 2 200gb sata drives with 2 750 gb drives.
>
> Make sure your boot partition is not too far from the beginning of the disk.

Boot partition is not involved here.  Its on a a different (IDE) disk.

Its not on a partition actually but in the MBR of Master drive on
first IDE controller.  The newly added disk is sata and is on a PCI
sata controller (Adeptec 1205sa).

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Yikes, replacing sata 200gb with Sata 750gb .. no bootsky.

[Paul Hartman]

On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 1:17 PM, Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> wrote:
> Boot partition is not involved here.  Its on a a different (IDE) disk.
>
> Its not on a partition actually but in the MBR of Master drive on
> first IDE controller.  The newly added disk is sata and is on a PCI
> sata controller (Adeptec 1205sa).

After re-reading your first post, my guess would be: your new drives
are SATA II but your Adapter controller does not support that,
according to http://www.adaptec.com/en-US/support/sata/sata_host/ASH-1205SA/

Most drives have a jumper to put them into 1.5gbps mode (rather than
3gbps mode). See if your new drives have one of those jumpers.

[gentoo-user] Re: Yikes, replacing sata 200gb with Sata 750gb .. no bootsky.

[Harry Putnam]

Paul Hartman <paul.hartman+gentoo@gmail.com> writes:

> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 1:17 PM, Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> wrote:
>> Boot partition is not involved here.  Its on a a different (IDE) disk.
>>
>> Its not on a partition actually but in the MBR of Master drive on
>> first IDE controller.  The newly added disk is sata and is on a PCI
>> sata controller (Adeptec 1205sa).
>
> After re-reading your first post, my guess would be: your new drives
> are SATA II but your Adapter controller does not support that,
> according to http://www.adaptec.com/en-US/support/sata/sata_host/ASH-1205SA/
>
> Most drives have a jumper to put them into 1.5gbps mode (rather than
> 3gbps mode). See if your new drives have one of those jumpers.

There are pins (no actual jumper was supplied) but the only thing mentioned
on the drive about using pins is this:

  Jumpered pins 3 and 4 enables PUIS (Power Up In Standby) 

I think I found what you are referring to but there is no mention of
changing 3gb to 1.5gb... at least not in those terms.  Or maybe this
is something else.

They call it:

  Enable or disable the spread spectrum clocking feature. 
  Default setting is disable

Here:
  http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=487&language=en

Which has this further link on the Specification tab/Left hand column
Quick Installation Guide

  http://www.wdc.com/en/library/sata/2079-001042.pdf

[gentoo-user] Re: Yikes, replacing sata 200gb with Sata 750gb .. no bootsky.

[Harry Putnam]

Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:

>> Most drives have a jumper to put them into 1.5gbps mode (rather than
>> 3gbps mode). See if your new drives have one of those jumpers.
>
> There are pins (no actual jumper was supplied) but the only thing mentioned
> on the drive about using pins is this:
>
>   Jumpered pins 3 and 4 enables PUIS (Power Up In Standby) 
>
> I think I found what you are referring to but there is no mention of
> changing 3gb to 1.5gb... at least not in those terms.  Or maybe this
> is something else.
>
> They call it:
>
>   Enable or disable the spread spectrum clocking feature. 
>   Default setting is disable
>
> Here:
>   http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=487&language=en
>
> Which has this further link on the Specification tab/Left hand column
> Quick Installation Guide
>
>   http://www.wdc.com/en/library/sata/2079-001042.pdf

I found a little more about this.  Something suggesting to use pins
5-6.  (Figure 4 in the pdf at below URL)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS273&q=WD+Sata+II+jumpers&btnG=Search

The top one on the list.  (it has such a massive direct url I've given
the search page containing the hit (at the top))

So installed jumper on 5-6  and booted up.  I still get the same kind of
hang at the point where the adaptec PCI card throws up a screen.

   Press F3 to enter configuration utility
    Primary channel: WDC WD200-blah       19082 MB <= old 200gb drive
 Secondary channerl: WDC WD750-blah       

No size given on the new drive, like it cannot read the drive size.
And no further progress seems possible.  Pressing F3 has no effect.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Yikes, replacing sata 200gb with Sata 750gb .. no bootsky.

[Paul Hartman]

On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> wrote:
> Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:
>
>>> Most drives have a jumper to put them into 1.5gbps mode (rather than
>>> 3gbps mode). See if your new drives have one of those jumpers.
>>
>> There are pins (no actual jumper was supplied) but the only thing mentioned
>> on the drive about using pins is this:
>>
>>   Jumpered pins 3 and 4 enables PUIS (Power Up In Standby)
>>
>> I think I found what you are referring to but there is no mention of
>> changing 3gb to 1.5gb... at least not in those terms.  Or maybe this
>> is something else.
>>
>> They call it:
>>
>>   Enable or disable the spread spectrum clocking feature.
>>   Default setting is disable
>>
>> Here:
>>   http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=487&language=en
>>
>> Which has this further link on the Specification tab/Left hand column
>> Quick Installation Guide
>>
>>   http://www.wdc.com/en/library/sata/2079-001042.pdf
>
> I found a little more about this.  Something suggesting to use pins
> 5-6.  (Figure 4 in the pdf at below URL)
>
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS273&q=WD+Sata+II+jumpers&btnG=Search
>
> The top one on the list.  (it has such a massive direct url I've given
> the search page containing the hit (at the top))
>
> So installed jumper on 5-6  and booted up.  I still get the same kind of
> hang at the point where the adaptec PCI card throws up a screen.
>
>   Press F3 to enter configuration utility
>    Primary channel: WDC WD200-blah       19082 MB <= old 200gb drive
>  Secondary channerl: WDC WD750-blah
>
> No size given on the new drive, like it cannot read the drive size.
> And no further progress seems possible.  Pressing F3 has no effect.

I found the following page which would agree with pins 5-6 meaning
what I was suggesting:
http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=2534

I also found this page which mentions your Adaptec card does not work
with 750GB Seagate drives -- so maybe that card is the source of your
problems. http://www.sun.com/bigadmin/hcl/data/components/details/801.html

Are you using the latest BIOS for the Adaptec card? It looks like the
chipset is Silicon Image 3112A and the latest BIOS on SI's website is
4.2.84. http://www.siliconimage.com/support/

[gentoo-user] Re: Yikes, replacing sata 200gb with Sata 750gb .. no bootsky.

[Harry Putnam]

Paul Hartman <paul.hartman+gentoo@gmail.com> writes:

>> So installed jumper on 5-6  and booted up.  I still get the same kind of
>> hang at the point where the adaptec PCI card throws up a screen.
>>
>>   Press F3 to enter configuration utility
>>    Primary channel: WDC WD200-blah       19082 MB <= old 200gb drive
>>  Secondary channerl: WDC WD750-blah
>>
>> No size given on the new drive, like it cannot read the drive size.
>> And no further progress seems possible.  Pressing F3 has no effect.
>
> I found the following page which would agree with pins 5-6 meaning
> what I was suggesting:
> http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=2534
>
> I also found this page which mentions your Adaptec card does not work
> with 750GB Seagate drives -- so maybe that card is the source of your
> problems. http://www.sun.com/bigadmin/hcl/data/components/details/801.html

That is kind of a drag because I bought this card due to having found
it on that very HCL... It was only 1 user who reported it and on
specific hardware... I don't remember what now but do remember that it
didn't match mine very well ... but I tried it anyway since its very
difficult to find a sata controller for my hardware there. 

> Are you using the latest BIOS for the Adaptec card? It looks like the
> chipset is Silicon Image 3112A and the latest BIOS on SI's website is
> 4.2.84. http://www.siliconimage.com/support/

You sure do excellent research!  And fast.

I don't know about the bios and don't really have a clue how to find
out but maybe investigating the support page you cited will get me
started down that route.  

But the Seagate thing sounds pretty bad... and likely to mean its a
nogo.

[gentoo-user] Re: Yikes, replacing sata 200gb with Sata 750gb .. no bootsky.

[Harry Putnam]

Paul Hartman <paul.hartman+gentoo@gmail.com> writes:

> Are you using the latest BIOS for the Adaptec card? It looks like the
> chipset is Silicon Image 3112A and the latest BIOS on SI's website is
> 4.2.84. http://www.siliconimage.com/support/

After downloading the bios upgrade and trying to figure out how to use
it from the instructions... One thing is not clear to me, does the
procedure write something to the chip on the card or to the system
(pc) bios.  

Also I don't see any evidence this upgrade would make the card work
with those 750 drives.

Even worse, I'd have to install the card on a different machine since
the one I needed it for has no floppy.  And it appears I'd either need
to install it on a windows machine or install a little free dos
application that allows user to create a bootable floppy to get the
job done.

I'm starting to wonder if this is really worth the effort when I may
find it still doesn't work for newer 750s.

I think I'd almost have to hear from someone who has used it with
newer drives to keep on with it.  

It cost $42 which I hate to just throw away, but there is some chance
the Digiconepts that I bought it from will give me some kind of
exchange for something known to work in the situation I need it in. 

You've helped me an awful lot.  I wish I new your tricks for turning
up information... it always seems to take me forever to find what I
need on the internet.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Yikes, replacing sata 200gb with Sata 750gb .. no bootsky.

[Paul Hartman]

On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 6:51 PM, Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> wrote:
> Paul Hartman <paul.hartman+gentoo@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Are you using the latest BIOS for the Adaptec card? It looks like the
>> chipset is Silicon Image 3112A and the latest BIOS on SI's website is
>> 4.2.84. http://www.siliconimage.com/support/
>
> After downloading the bios upgrade and trying to figure out how to use
> it from the instructions... One thing is not clear to me, does the
> procedure write something to the chip on the card or to the system
> (pc) bios.

I think it should be the BIOS on the Adaptec card.

> Also I don't see any evidence this upgrade would make the card work
> with those 750 drives.

You could perhaps try giving Adaptec a call or e-mail and see if
anyone there can tell you what that controller supports, since their
website doesn't really say.

> Even worse, I'd have to install the card on a different machine since
> the one I needed it for has no floppy.  And it appears I'd either need
> to install it on a windows machine or install a little free dos
> application that allows user to create a bootable floppy to get the
> job done.

If you can manage to get a floppy disk image via dosbox or wine or
something, or by making the disk on a machine that does have a floppy
drive, it should be possible to burn it to a CD or bootable USB
device. This page has some instructions on how to burn a floppy image
to CD:

http://linux-issues.blogspot.com/2008/09/how-to-make-bootable-msdos-cd-from.html

But, I think you're probably right... it seems more and more likely
that the controller just doesn't work with drives of that size. :(

One last random idea; several years ago on my old 266MHz Pentium II,
it only supported drives up to about 16GB or so... I got an 80GB drive
and the machine wouldn't get through POST with it attached, it would
just freeze when it got to that point, apparently because the
motherboard/BIOS didn't support drives that large. I managed to get
around this problem by unplugging the drive, then booting into the
BIOS and /disabling/ that drive (rather than having it set to "Auto
detect" or manually defining the drive geometry). That caused it to
skip it entirely during the boot process, which allowed the operating
system (OS/2 Warp) to load off of my boot drive (which was within the
BIOS limits), at which point the OS detected the drive and it worked
just fine. I don't know how (or if) you could do that with your add-in
controller but I thought I'd throw it out there just in case it may
apply.

Good luck,
Paul

[gentoo-user] Re: Yikes, replacing sata 200gb with Sata 750gb .. no bootsky.

[Harry Putnam]

[...]

Harry wrote:

>> Also I don't see any evidence this upgrade would make the card work
>> with those 750 drives.

Paul replied:

> You could perhaps try giving Adaptec a call or e-mail and see if
> anyone there can tell you what that controller supports, since their
> website doesn't really say.

Yeah, but not all that likely.  I did write to them when I was trying
to research before buying that card and was told its been out of
production for some time....

Doesn't mean I wouldn't get some old hand who'd just know though.

>> Even worse, I'd have to install the card on a different machine since
>> the one I needed it for has no floppy.  And it appears I'd either need
>> to install it on a windows machine or install a little free dos
>> application that allows user to create a bootable floppy to get the
>> job done.
>
> If you can manage to get a floppy disk image via dosbox or wine or
> something, or by making the disk on a machine that does have a floppy
> drive, it should be possible to burn it to a CD or bootable USB
> device. This page has some instructions on how to burn a floppy image
> to CD:

Well that's good to know and maybe I'll try that.  But the server has
no cdrom either.  I took floppy and cdrom off to allow for more hdd.
So that leaves usb.

Actually seems like it would be about as much work as just braving
up and installing the card in my wifes' machine and doing the flash
there ... just to find out if will then recognize sataII or not.

That would be a really foolish move except that she is gone for
several hours... otherwise the fight would be on... hehe.

However, in the mean time I already went ahead and bought a Sil 3114
off ebay for $20 + $10 shipping.  And I've learned from some people on
an Australian `overclocker' forum that it will definitely work with
large new sata II drives.  Although it is a card from the sata I era.

They say if it doesn't just work out of the box, it definitely will
with a flash to newest bios.  That's the part no one has said about
Sil 3112a.  So I'll wait for it to arrive and try flashing them both.


> One last random idea; several years ago on my old 266MHz Pentium II,

That's an interesting story.. makes me want to think there would be
some way to trick the machine in this case too.

Of course the stumbling block is that the recognition happens during
bootup. 

But maybe if I'm brave enough to connect the satas while the machine
is running... it might have some chance of working.

And PROBABLY (famous last words) the worst that might happen is the
controller would get fried. (Hopefully not brand new 750 drives or
even worse.. the motherboard)..... er... I think I chickened out
already. 

Actually I've already connected and disconnected sata drives with the
machine running...

It came about trying to go back to using that 1205sa as I was before
attempting to move up to 750s.  I'd had 2 200gb sataI drives on it.

I put just one back on still trying to learn more about how the 1205sa
worked, but there was some error message I've forgotten now, but it
said enough to make me think I'd put it on the wrong channel.  So I
pulled the data port and plugged it into the other one which was not
on a power plug and then plugged in the power plug.  Seemed to work,
and apparently did no harm..

Probably a dumb move though.  And I got lucky.

Anyway... I don't think I'll do it with a brand new almost $90 wd750.

[gentoo-user] Re: Yikes, replacing sata 200gb with Sata 750gb .. no bootsky.

[Harry Putnam]

Paul, you will be relieved to know that I braved up and installed the
1205sa card on a windows machine... updated driver which may have been
a waste of time and flashed both Base BIOS and SATA_raid BIOS.

Apparently this card has a BIOS that is in 2 parts or maybe each on it
own chip. Their are 2 on the card.

I didn't hold out much hope but it worked just fine with that done.

No need for jumpers ... it just works.

Some might think its a waste to go with the 1.5GB of `sata I' but the
card is PCI anyway.  I'm not sure how much of a bottleneck that is but
I suspect that would get in the way before 1.5gb does.

This server is on a home lan so not going to get an industrial
workout anyway.

I'm a happy camper even though I jumped the gun and ordered a Sil3114
off ebay, I'm pretty sure I'll use it sooner or later.

You have been very patient and helpful ... I really do appreciate
that.  Thanks.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Yikes, replacing sata 200gb with Sata 750gb .. no bootsky.

[Paul Hartman]

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> wrote:
> Paul, you will be relieved to know that I braved up and installed the
> 1205sa card on a windows machine... updated driver which may have been
> a waste of time and flashed both Base BIOS and SATA_raid BIOS.
>
> Apparently this card has a BIOS that is in 2 parts or maybe each on it
> own chip. Their are 2 on the card.
>
> I didn't hold out much hope but it worked just fine with that done.
>
> No need for jumpers ... it just works.
>
> Some might think its a waste to go with the 1.5GB of `sata I' but the
> card is PCI anyway.  I'm not sure how much of a bottleneck that is but
> I suspect that would get in the way before 1.5gb does.
>
> This server is on a home lan so not going to get an industrial
> workout anyway.
>
> I'm a happy camper even though I jumped the gun and ordered a Sil3114
> off ebay, I'm pretty sure I'll use it sooner or later.
>
> You have been very patient and helpful ... I really do appreciate
> that.  Thanks.

Great news! As far as 1.5 vs 3.0, the drive cannot physically get
anywhere near that fast so it probably won't make any difference. I
had a 320GB drive that came with the 1.5 mode jumpered from the
factory, and didn't even realize it for about six months. Once I
noticed and changed it, there was absolutely no speed difference. I
just got the satisfaction of seeing "3.0" in dmesg instead of "1.5".
:)