[gentoo-user] LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[gentoo-user] LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[allan gottlieb]

Having read the latest news article and rereading parts of the
localization guide, it is not clear to me what action, if any, I need to
take.

My systems are US English only

/etc/portage/make.conf has
   LINGUAS="en"

/etc/local.gen has just comments plus
   en_US ISO-8859-1
   en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8

Should I add
   L10N="en-US"
to /etc/portage/make.conf ?

Should I run local-gen ?

Thanks
allan

Re: [gentoo-user] LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[Dale]

allan gottlieb wrote:
> Having read the latest news article and rereading parts of the
> localization guide, it is not clear to me what action, if any, I need to
> take.
>
> My systems are US English only
>
> /etc/portage/make.conf has
>    LINGUAS="en"
>
> /etc/local.gen has just comments plus
>    en_US ISO-8859-1
>    en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8
>
> Should I add
>    L10N="en-US"
> to /etc/portage/make.conf ?
>
> Should I run local-gen ?
>
> Thanks
> allan
>
>

I agree that the news item was confusing.  The guide it linked to wasn't
much better either.  In the end, I just fiddled with the setting until I
found a setting that didn't change what I already have, in other words,
I got a clean emerge -uvaDN world.  My first couple runs wanted to
remove things and I knew the setting wasn't right yet.  After it was all
done, this is what I ended up with:

LINGUAS="en_US en" 

I left the LANG setting as is for the moment. 

Hope that helps.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[Peter Humphrey]

On Friday 24 Jun 2016 09:54:35 Dale wrote:

> I agree that the news item was confusing.  The guide it linked to wasn't
> much better either.  In the end, I just fiddled with the setting until I
> found a setting that didn't change what I already have, in other words,
> I got a clean emerge -uvaDN world.  My first couple runs wanted to
> remove things and I knew the setting wasn't right yet.  After it was all
> done, this is what I ended up with:
> 
> LINGUAS="en_US en"
> 
> I left the LANG setting as is for the moment.

Didn't you set L10N as well? I read the news item as requiring it.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[Dale]

Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Friday 24 Jun 2016 09:54:35 Dale wrote:
>
>> I agree that the news item was confusing.  The guide it linked to wasn't
>> much better either.  In the end, I just fiddled with the setting until I
>> found a setting that didn't change what I already have, in other words,
>> I got a clean emerge -uvaDN world.  My first couple runs wanted to
>> remove things and I knew the setting wasn't right yet.  After it was all
>> done, this is what I ended up with:
>>
>> LINGUAS="en_US en"
>>
>> I left the LANG setting as is for the moment.
> Didn't you set L10N as well? I read the news item as requiring it.
>


As I said, the news item and even the guide the news item pointed to
doesn't explain much.  When I run into a doc that doesn't give me enough
info, or so much that it doesn't make sense, then I resort of trying
settings until I get a output that tells me that the setting I tried
works.  At first, I tried "en" but some packages were going to be
rebuilt.  Then I tried "en-US" and that caused other packages to want to
be rebuilt.  Then I put in both and I got what I expected, a clean
emerge output that showed it wasn't going to change anything from what I
already had. 

I guess when L10N starts causing packages to build differently, I'll add
it . As it is, I'm not real sure what if anything it does that affects me. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[Alan McKinnon]

On 24/06/2016 17:40, Dale wrote:
> Peter Humphrey wrote:
>> On Friday 24 Jun 2016 09:54:35 Dale wrote:
>>
>>> I agree that the news item was confusing.  The guide it linked to wasn't
>>> much better either.  In the end, I just fiddled with the setting until I
>>> found a setting that didn't change what I already have, in other words,
>>> I got a clean emerge -uvaDN world.  My first couple runs wanted to
>>> remove things and I knew the setting wasn't right yet.  After it was all
>>> done, this is what I ended up with:
>>>
>>> LINGUAS="en_US en"
>>>
>>> I left the LANG setting as is for the moment.
>> Didn't you set L10N as well? I read the news item as requiring it.
>>
>
>
> As I said, the news item and even the guide the news item pointed to
> doesn't explain much.  When I run into a doc that doesn't give me enough
> info, or so much that it doesn't make sense, then I resort of trying
> settings until I get a output that tells me that the setting I tried
> works.  At first, I tried "en" but some packages were going to be
> rebuilt.  Then I tried "en-US" and that caused other packages to want to
> be rebuilt.  Then I put in both and I got what I expected, a clean
> emerge output that showed it wasn't going to change anything from what I
> already had.
>
> I guess when L10N starts causing packages to build differently, I'll add
> it . As it is, I'm not real sure what if anything it does that affects me.

Right now it does nothing, it is only setting the groundwork for 
something in the near future.

LINGUAS in the environment is a really bad idea, GNU gettext uses it to 
decide what translated messages to generate, but does it poorly and 
packages use it inconsistently. Gentoo uses it to decide what 
localization to use, which often includes which language packs to 
download and install - something that gettext's LINGUAS never goes near.

So the choice of name on Gentoo's part is really poor. What really needs 
to happen is that a dedicated variable L10N replaces what LINGUAS does 
in ebuilds, and when the whole tree is converted LINGUAS as a USE_EXPAND 
goes away. What you do right now is do what the news item says to do 
which is copy LINGUAS to L10N in make.conf, then it is done and you can 
go on your merry way confident that all will be fine.

Really, it's all there in the news item clear as daylight and completely 
unambiguous.

You fellows really like over-complicating news items and asking way too 
many "what if?" questions. Y'all need to knock that crap off now :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 24/06/2016 17:40, Dale wrote:
>> Peter Humphrey wrote:
>>> On Friday 24 Jun 2016 09:54:35 Dale wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree that the news item was confusing.  The guide it linked to
>>>> wasn't
>>>> much better either.  In the end, I just fiddled with the setting
>>>> until I
>>>> found a setting that didn't change what I already have, in other
>>>> words,
>>>> I got a clean emerge -uvaDN world.  My first couple runs wanted to
>>>> remove things and I knew the setting wasn't right yet.  After it
>>>> was all
>>>> done, this is what I ended up with:
>>>>
>>>> LINGUAS="en_US en"
>>>>
>>>> I left the LANG setting as is for the moment.
>>> Didn't you set L10N as well? I read the news item as requiring it.
>>>
>>
>>
>> As I said, the news item and even the guide the news item pointed to
>> doesn't explain much.  When I run into a doc that doesn't give me enough
>> info, or so much that it doesn't make sense, then I resort of trying
>> settings until I get a output that tells me that the setting I tried
>> works.  At first, I tried "en" but some packages were going to be
>> rebuilt.  Then I tried "en-US" and that caused other packages to want to
>> be rebuilt.  Then I put in both and I got what I expected, a clean
>> emerge output that showed it wasn't going to change anything from what I
>> already had.
>>
>> I guess when L10N starts causing packages to build differently, I'll add
>> it . As it is, I'm not real sure what if anything it does that
>> affects me.
>
> Right now it does nothing, it is only setting the groundwork for
> something in the near future.
>
> LINGUAS in the environment is a really bad idea, GNU gettext uses it
> to decide what translated messages to generate, but does it poorly and
> packages use it inconsistently. Gentoo uses it to decide what
> localization to use, which often includes which language packs to
> download and install - something that gettext's LINGUAS never goes near.
>
> So the choice of name on Gentoo's part is really poor. What really
> needs to happen is that a dedicated variable L10N replaces what
> LINGUAS does in ebuilds, and when the whole tree is converted LINGUAS
> as a USE_EXPAND goes away. What you do right now is do what the news
> item says to do which is copy LINGUAS to L10N in make.conf, then it is
> done and you can go on your merry way confident that all will be fine.
>
> Really, it's all there in the news item clear as daylight and
> completely unambiguous.
>
> You fellows really like over-complicating news items and asking way
> too many "what if?" questions. Y'all need to knock that crap off now :-)
>
>
>

I tried to comment out each one one at a time.  Whenever I do, emerge
wants to remove some of the languages, en to be more precise.  I don't
know if maybe some ebuilds or something else is a little behind or what
but I guess I'll leave it as is until I know it won't change something
that I need.  Each way that I try it, it affects different packages. 

I read the news item and was confused.  I read it again and was even
more confused.  After the third time, I didn't see any point in reading
it again so I went to the link, hoping it would be better.  Well, not
really.  So, I just started messing with it until I got a setting that
worked.  Hey, it's in there and it works.  Now the news item and the
howto don't matter.  lol 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[Mick]

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On Friday 24 Jun 2016 18:47:11 Dale wrote:
> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > On 24/06/2016 17:40, Dale wrote:
> >> Peter Humphrey wrote:
> >>> On Friday 24 Jun 2016 09:54:35 Dale wrote:
> >>>> I agree that the news item was confusing.  The guide it linked to
> >>>> wasn't
> >>>> much better either.  In the end, I just fiddled with the setting
> >>>> until I
> >>>> found a setting that didn't change what I already have, in other
> >>>> words,
> >>>> I got a clean emerge -uvaDN world.  My first couple runs wanted to
> >>>> remove things and I knew the setting wasn't right yet.  After it
> >>>> was all
> >>>> done, this is what I ended up with:
> >>>> 
> >>>> LINGUAS="en_US en"
> >>>> 
> >>>> I left the LANG setting as is for the moment.
> >>> 
> >>> Didn't you set L10N as well? I read the news item as requiring it.
> >> 
> >> As I said, the news item and even the guide the news item pointed to
> >> doesn't explain much.  When I run into a doc that doesn't give me enough
> >> info, or so much that it doesn't make sense, then I resort of trying
> >> settings until I get a output that tells me that the setting I tried
> >> works.  At first, I tried "en" but some packages were going to be
> >> rebuilt.  Then I tried "en-US" and that caused other packages to want to
> >> be rebuilt.  Then I put in both and I got what I expected, a clean
> >> emerge output that showed it wasn't going to change anything from what I
> >> already had.
> >> 
> >> I guess when L10N starts causing packages to build differently, I'll add
> >> it . As it is, I'm not real sure what if anything it does that
> >> affects me.
> > 
> > Right now it does nothing, it is only setting the groundwork for
> > something in the near future.
> > 
> > LINGUAS in the environment is a really bad idea, GNU gettext uses it
> > to decide what translated messages to generate, but does it poorly and
> > packages use it inconsistently. Gentoo uses it to decide what
> > localization to use, which often includes which language packs to
> > download and install - something that gettext's LINGUAS never goes near.
> > 
> > So the choice of name on Gentoo's part is really poor. What really
> > needs to happen is that a dedicated variable L10N replaces what
> > LINGUAS does in ebuilds, and when the whole tree is converted LINGUAS
> > as a USE_EXPAND goes away. What you do right now is do what the news
> > item says to do which is copy LINGUAS to L10N in make.conf, then it is
> > done and you can go on your merry way confident that all will be fine.
> > 
> > Really, it's all there in the news item clear as daylight and
> > completely unambiguous.
> > 
> > You fellows really like over-complicating news items and asking way
> > too many "what if?" questions. Y'all need to knock that crap off now :-)
> 
> I tried to comment out each one one at a time.  Whenever I do, emerge
> wants to remove some of the languages, en to be more precise.  I don't
> know if maybe some ebuilds or something else is a little behind or what
> but I guess I'll leave it as is until I know it won't change something
> that I need.  Each way that I try it, it affects different packages.
> 
> I read the news item and was confused.  I read it again and was even
> more confused.  After the third time, I didn't see any point in reading
> it again so I went to the link, hoping it would be better.  Well, not
> really.  So, I just started messing with it until I got a setting that
> worked.  Hey, it's in there and it works.  Now the news item and the
> howto don't matter.  lol
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-)

Did you read *all* the URLs in the news item?  Even if the URL on language 
tags and gettext were TL;DR, the last URL pointing you to the gentoo Wiki page 
on localization should be straight forward to follow.

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[Dale]

Mick wrote:
> On Friday 24 Jun 2016 18:47:11 Dale wrote:
>> Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>> On 24/06/2016 17:40, Dale wrote:
>>>> Peter Humphrey wrote:
>>>>> On Friday 24 Jun 2016 09:54:35 Dale wrote:
>>>>>> I agree that the news item was confusing.  The guide it linked to
>>>>>> wasn't
>>>>>> much better either.  In the end, I just fiddled with the setting
>>>>>> until I
>>>>>> found a setting that didn't change what I already have, in other
>>>>>> words,
>>>>>> I got a clean emerge -uvaDN world.  My first couple runs wanted to
>>>>>> remove things and I knew the setting wasn't right yet.  After it
>>>>>> was all
>>>>>> done, this is what I ended up with:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LINGUAS="en_US en"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I left the LANG setting as is for the moment.
>>>>> Didn't you set L10N as well? I read the news item as requiring it.
>>>> As I said, the news item and even the guide the news item pointed to
>>>> doesn't explain much.  When I run into a doc that doesn't give me enough
>>>> info, or so much that it doesn't make sense, then I resort of trying
>>>> settings until I get a output that tells me that the setting I tried
>>>> works.  At first, I tried "en" but some packages were going to be
>>>> rebuilt.  Then I tried "en-US" and that caused other packages to want to
>>>> be rebuilt.  Then I put in both and I got what I expected, a clean
>>>> emerge output that showed it wasn't going to change anything from what I
>>>> already had.
>>>>
>>>> I guess when L10N starts causing packages to build differently, I'll add
>>>> it . As it is, I'm not real sure what if anything it does that
>>>> affects me.
>>> Right now it does nothing, it is only setting the groundwork for
>>> something in the near future.
>>>
>>> LINGUAS in the environment is a really bad idea, GNU gettext uses it
>>> to decide what translated messages to generate, but does it poorly and
>>> packages use it inconsistently. Gentoo uses it to decide what
>>> localization to use, which often includes which language packs to
>>> download and install - something that gettext's LINGUAS never goes near.
>>>
>>> So the choice of name on Gentoo's part is really poor. What really
>>> needs to happen is that a dedicated variable L10N replaces what
>>> LINGUAS does in ebuilds, and when the whole tree is converted LINGUAS
>>> as a USE_EXPAND goes away. What you do right now is do what the news
>>> item says to do which is copy LINGUAS to L10N in make.conf, then it is
>>> done and you can go on your merry way confident that all will be fine.
>>>
>>> Really, it's all there in the news item clear as daylight and
>>> completely unambiguous.
>>>
>>> You fellows really like over-complicating news items and asking way
>>> too many "what if?" questions. Y'all need to knock that crap off now :-)
>> I tried to comment out each one one at a time.  Whenever I do, emerge
>> wants to remove some of the languages, en to be more precise.  I don't
>> know if maybe some ebuilds or something else is a little behind or what
>> but I guess I'll leave it as is until I know it won't change something
>> that I need.  Each way that I try it, it affects different packages.
>>
>> I read the news item and was confused.  I read it again and was even
>> more confused.  After the third time, I didn't see any point in reading
>> it again so I went to the link, hoping it would be better.  Well, not
>> really.  So, I just started messing with it until I got a setting that
>> worked.  Hey, it's in there and it works.  Now the news item and the
>> howto don't matter.  lol
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-)
> Did you read *all* the URLs in the news item?  Even if the URL on language 
> tags and gettext were TL;DR, the last URL pointing you to the gentoo Wiki page 
> on localization should be straight forward to follow.
>

That was actually the one I went to.  I noticed it was the Gentoo wiki
and figured it would be easier to figure out.  Maybe I should have tried
the others looking back with hindsight. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 24 Jun 2016 18:47:11 -0500, Dale wrote:

> I read the news item and was confused.  I read it again and was even
> more confused.  After the third time, I didn't see any point in reading
> it again so I went to the link, hoping it would be better.  Well, not
> really.  So, I just started messing with it until I got a setting that
> worked.  Hey, it's in there and it works.  Now the news item and the
> howto don't matter.  lol 

The point of the news item is not to make it work now, it already does.
The advice is there to help you get your system into a state where it
won't stop working when the next stage of the switch occurs.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Tell me, and I will forget. Show me, and I will remember. Involve me, and
I will learn.

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Re: [gentoo-user] LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2016 18:47:11 -0500, Dale wrote:
>
>> I read the news item and was confused.  I read it again and was even
>> more confused.  After the third time, I didn't see any point in reading
>> it again so I went to the link, hoping it would be better.  Well, not
>> really.  So, I just started messing with it until I got a setting that
>> worked.  Hey, it's in there and it works.  Now the news item and the
>> howto don't matter.  lol 
> The point of the news item is not to make it work now, it already does.
> The advice is there to help you get your system into a state where it
> won't stop working when the next stage of the switch occurs.
>
>

I get that but that didn't make much sense either.  I ended up using
trial and error to get the setting correct since the news item and the
link wasn't much help.  About all it did was let me know that there was
a change but as to helping understand that change, not much help there
if any. 

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 09:57:57 -0500, Dale wrote:

> > The point of the news item is not to make it work now, it already
> > does. The advice is there to help you get your system into a state
> > where it won't stop working when the next stage of the switch occurs.

> I get that but that didn't make much sense either.  I ended up using
> trial and error to get the setting correct since the news item and the
> link wasn't much help.  About all it did was let me know that there was
> a change but as to helping understand that change, not much help there
> if any. 

It made sense to me. To paraphrase:

Using LINGUAS sucks so we are phasing it out in favour of L10N.

So set L10N to whatever LINGUAS is currently set to, with one change

We are using newer style naming with country codes, so replace _ with -
in things like en_GB.

That's it. If the odd package wants to rebuild, it's because that package
had already moved over to use L10N, so the last update would have built
it with all languages.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Windoze95 Quote: Why is the Pentium 166 so fast? - Its for booting
faster, if Windows crashed again.

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Re: [gentoo-user] LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 09:57:57 -0500, Dale wrote:
>
>>> The point of the news item is not to make it work now, it already
>>> does. The advice is there to help you get your system into a state
>>> where it won't stop working when the next stage of the switch occurs.
>> I get that but that didn't make much sense either.  I ended up using
>> trial and error to get the setting correct since the news item and the
>> link wasn't much help.  About all it did was let me know that there was
>> a change but as to helping understand that change, not much help there
>> if any. 
> It made sense to me. To paraphrase:
>
> Using LINGUAS sucks so we are phasing it out in favour of L10N.
>
> So set L10N to whatever LINGUAS is currently set to, with one change
>
> We are using newer style naming with country codes, so replace _ with -
> in things like en_GB.
>
> That's it. If the odd package wants to rebuild, it's because that package
> had already moved over to use L10N, so the last update would have built
> it with all languages.
>
>

Neil,

Keep in mind, I didn't start this thread.  I'm not the only one who read
the news item and it not make good sense.  I might add, I followed some
of the discussion on -dev and even that didn't help the news item and I
sort of had a general idea of what it was about.  If I wasn't already
somewhat aware of it, that news item wouldn't have been very little help. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[»Q«]

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 09:57:57 -0500
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > On Fri, 24 Jun 2016 18:47:11 -0500, Dale wrote:
> >  
> >> I read the news item and was confused.  I read it again and was
> >> even more confused.  After the third time, I didn't see any point
> >> in reading it again so I went to the link, hoping it would be
> >> better.  Well, not really.  So, I just started messing with it
> >> until I got a setting that worked.  Hey, it's in there and it
> >> works.  Now the news item and the howto don't matter.  lol 
  
> > The point of the news item is not to make it work now, it already
> > does. The advice is there to help you get your system into a state
> > where it won't stop working when the next stage of the switch
> > occurs. 
> 
> I get that but that didn't make much sense either.  I ended up using
> trial and error to get the setting correct since the news item and the
> link wasn't much help.  About all it did was let me know that there
> was a change but as to helping understand that change, not much help
> there if any. 

The news item says, 

  If you have set LINGUAS in your make.conf, you most likely want to
  add its entries also to L10N. Note that while the common two letter
  language codes (like "de" or "fr") are identical, more complex
  entries have a different syntax because L10N now uses IETF language
  tags. (For example, "pt_BR" becomes "pt-BR" and "sr@latin" becomes
  "sr-Latn".)

I can't tell from your posts what make.conf changes you actually made,
if any.  If you still need to make changes -- some packages are
already using L10N now -- focus just on that one bit of the allegedly
unclear news item and if it really is confusing ask about just that
bit.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[Dale]

»Q« wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 09:57:57 -0500
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Neil Bothwick wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Jun 2016 18:47:11 -0500, Dale wrote:
>>>  
>>>> I read the news item and was confused.  I read it again and was
>>>> even more confused.  After the third time, I didn't see any point
>>>> in reading it again so I went to the link, hoping it would be
>>>> better.  Well, not really.  So, I just started messing with it
>>>> until I got a setting that worked.  Hey, it's in there and it
>>>> works.  Now the news item and the howto don't matter.  lol 
>   
>>> The point of the news item is not to make it work now, it already
>>> does. The advice is there to help you get your system into a state
>>> where it won't stop working when the next stage of the switch
>>> occurs. 
>> I get that but that didn't make much sense either.  I ended up using
>> trial and error to get the setting correct since the news item and the
>> link wasn't much help.  About all it did was let me know that there
>> was a change but as to helping understand that change, not much help
>> there if any. 
> The news item says, 
>
>   If you have set LINGUAS in your make.conf, you most likely want to
>   add its entries also to L10N. Note that while the common two letter
>   language codes (like "de" or "fr") are identical, more complex
>   entries have a different syntax because L10N now uses IETF language
>   tags. (For example, "pt_BR" becomes "pt-BR" and "sr@latin" becomes
>   "sr-Latn".)
>
> I can't tell from your posts what make.conf changes you actually made,
> if any.  If you still need to make changes -- some packages are
> already using L10N now -- focus just on that one bit of the allegedly
> unclear news item and if it really is confusing ask about just that
> bit.
>
>

As I just mentioned to Neil just a moment ago.  I followed some of the
discussion on -dev.  I had a general idea of what the change was but the
news item just didn't make a lot of sense.  So, I took what I recalled
from the -dev discussion and used trial and error to get it set
correctly in make.conf.  I had mine working before the OP of this thread
asked about the news item.  I'm not the only one who wasn't clear on
what the news item was saying and I followed it on -dev.   I had a
general idea already.  Someone who didn't follow -dev would likely be
clueless. 

As it is, my make.conf is working here.  I started out on this thread
helping the OP get his set up correctly.  Why make someone else use
trial and error like I did when all I had to do was post what worked
here and see if that worked for them too?   The OP was unsure about the
news item, as was I, and I posted to help him.  Given his last reply, it
seems his is working now too.  Hopefully if others can't figure out the
news item, they will find this thread and try some of the settings
mentioned here. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[»Q«]

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 11:18:00 -0500
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> I started out on this thread helping the OP get his set up
> correctly.  Why make someone else use trial and error like I did when
> all I had to do was post 

Refraining from posting would *not* have forced the OP to use trial and
error, as there are plenty of people here on the list who *do*
understand the news item.

> what worked here and see if that worked for them too?   

Your initial post to the thread did not include what works for you
and did nothing to help the OP;  you posted what actually works for you 
only after the OP had already thanked Alan, who had understood the
issue and helped him (and you, AFAICT) get things straight.

None of this is a very big deal, and I hope I didn't come across as too
harsh.  It's just that in almost all cases, it's more helpful to wait
until someone who does understand posts than to jump in to help with
something one doesn't understand.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[Dale]

»Q« wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 11:18:00 -0500
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I started out on this thread helping the OP get his set up
>> correctly.  Why make someone else use trial and error like I did when
>> all I had to do was post 
> Refraining from posting would *not* have forced the OP to use trial and
> error, as there are plenty of people here on the list who *do*
> understand the news item.

True but I've seen posts where no one responds with a fix as well.  I do
try to help people whenever I can just like I would hope a person would
do and has done for me. 

>> what worked here and see if that worked for them too?   
> Your initial post to the thread did not include what works for you
> and did nothing to help the OP;  you posted what actually works for you 
> only after the OP had already thanked Alan, who had understood the
> issue and helped him (and you, AFAICT) get things straight.
>
> None of this is a very big deal, and I hope I didn't come across as too
> harsh.  It's just that in almost all cases, it's more helpful to wait
> until someone who does understand posts than to jump in to help with
> something one doesn't understand.
>
>

Actually, I posted the first reply to this thread.  The OP posted at
about 9:06AM.  I replied at about 9:54AM.  Alan posted his first reply
at 10:31AM.  My first reply included this:

> After it was all done, this is what I ended up with:
>
> LINGUAS="en_US en" 
>
> I left the LANG setting as is for the moment. 

So, you either missed my first reply or didn't understand what I
included in it.  Which would be ironic wouldn't it? 

Here's the deal.  If someone posts and I have something that works, I'm
going to post it.  If it helps, fine.  If it doesn't then others can
post what works for them or explain what is what on it.  After all, we
are ALL here to try and help each other.  What one person does may or
may not work for another.  Still, we share just the same.  

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[»Q«]

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 12:20:25 -0500
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> »Q« wrote:
> > On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 11:18:00 -0500
> > Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> >  
> >> I started out on this thread helping the OP get his set up
> >> correctly.  Why make someone else use trial and error like I did
> >> when all I had to do was post   
> > Refraining from posting would *not* have forced the OP to use trial
> > and error, as there are plenty of people here on the list who *do*
> > understand the news item.  
> 
> True but I've seen posts where no one responds with a fix as well.  I
> do try to help people whenever I can just like I would hope a person
> would do and has done for me. 

In this case, you posted within an hour of the OP, not waiting to see
whether anyone who understood things would show up.  Would you consider
waiting some reasonable time before making an "I don't understand
either, but I'm here to help" post?

> >> what worked here and see if that worked for them too?     
> > Your initial post to the thread did not include what works for you
> > and did nothing to help the OP;  you posted what actually works for
> > you only after the OP had already thanked Alan, who had understood
> > the issue and helped him (and you, AFAICT) get things straight.
> >
> > None of this is a very big deal, and I hope I didn't come across as
> > too harsh.  It's just that in almost all cases, it's more helpful
> > to wait until someone who does understand posts than to jump in to
> > help with something one doesn't understand. 
> 
> Actually, I posted the first reply to this thread.

Actually, you just quoted me discussing that very post of yours.

> The OP posted at about 9:06AM.  I replied at about 9:54AM.  Alan
> posted his first reply at 10:31AM.  My first reply included this:
> 
> > After it was all done, this is what I ended up with:
> >
> > LINGUAS="en_US en" 
> >
> > I left the LANG setting as is for the moment.   
>
> So, you either missed my first reply or didn't understand what I
> included in it.  Which would be ironic wouldn't it? 

I did read your first reply and I do understand what you included in
it.  You left out the only part that was important to the issue at hand,
your L10N variable.  (I assumed that you hadn't added L10N until
later, after you read Alan's helpful post, but ICBW about that.)  
 
> Here's the deal.  If someone posts and I have something that works,
> I'm going to post it.  If it helps, fine.  If it doesn't then others
> can post what works for them or explain what is what on it.  After
> all, we are ALL here to try and help each other.  What one person
> does may or may not work for another.  Still, we share just the
> same.  

I was only trying to help you contribute less noise to the list.  It
appears that both of us have failed to do any good in this thread,
despite our good intentions.  Since I'm the one advocating against
noise, I'll quit now.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[Dale]

»Q« wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 12:20:25 -0500
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> »Q« wrote:
>>> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 11:18:00 -0500
>>> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>  
>>>> I started out on this thread helping the OP get his set up
>>>> correctly.  Why make someone else use trial and error like I did
>>>> when all I had to do was post   
>>> Refraining from posting would *not* have forced the OP to use trial
>>> and error, as there are plenty of people here on the list who *do*
>>> understand the news item.  
>> True but I've seen posts where no one responds with a fix as well.  I
>> do try to help people whenever I can just like I would hope a person
>> would do and has done for me. 
> In this case, you posted within an hour of the OP, not waiting to see
> whether anyone who understood things would show up.  Would you consider
> waiting some reasonable time before making an "I don't understand
> either, but I'm here to help" post?

Since you seem to be in charge of this decision somehow.  Just how long
should I wait?  A couple hours?  A day?  A week?  A month?  What if no
one tries to help at all?  What if I have a perfectly good fix and the
OP is in a hurry and doesn't want to wait a few more hours or days when
a good solution is already available? 

>>>> what worked here and see if that worked for them too?     
>>> Your initial post to the thread did not include what works for you
>>> and did nothing to help the OP;  you posted what actually works for
>>> you only after the OP had already thanked Alan, who had understood
>>> the issue and helped him (and you, AFAICT) get things straight.
>>>
>>> None of this is a very big deal, and I hope I didn't come across as
>>> too harsh.  It's just that in almost all cases, it's more helpful
>>> to wait until someone who does understand posts than to jump in to
>>> help with something one doesn't understand. 
>> Actually, I posted the first reply to this thread.
> Actually, you just quoted me discussing that very post of yours.

In my first reply, I only quoted what the OP posted in the post that
started this whole thread.  I took my quote for the VERY FIRST reply on
this thread.  I added what worked for me and even explained what I did
to get there. 

>
>> The OP posted at about 9:06AM.  I replied at about 9:54AM.  Alan
>> posted his first reply at 10:31AM.  My first reply included this:
>>
>>> After it was all done, this is what I ended up with:
>>>
>>> LINGUAS="en_US en" 
>>>
>>> I left the LANG setting as is for the moment.   
>> So, you either missed my first reply or didn't understand what I
>> included in it.  Which would be ironic wouldn't it? 
> I did read your first reply and I do understand what you included in
> it.  You left out the only part that was important to the issue at hand,
> your L10N variable.  (I assumed that you hadn't added L10N until
> later, after you read Alan's helpful post, but ICBW about that.)  

Just a FYI.  What Alan posted didn't help me here either when I added
it.  It may later on but it didn't when I tested it.  I suspect some
things are in flux at the moment. 


>  
>> Here's the deal.  If someone posts and I have something that works,
>> I'm going to post it.  If it helps, fine.  If it doesn't then others
>> can post what works for them or explain what is what on it.  After
>> all, we are ALL here to try and help each other.  What one person
>> does may or may not work for another.  Still, we share just the
>> same.  
> I was only trying to help you contribute less noise to the list.  It
> appears that both of us have failed to do any good in this thread,
> despite our good intentions.  Since I'm the one advocating against
> noise, I'll quit now.
>
>

Well, maybe this will help.  Does this meet your approval?  From now on
before I post anything on this list, I'll send it to you off list for
your approval which means that you guarantee that it is a post that will
fix whatever the OP of the thread has trouble with 100%.  Basically,
since you seem to have made yourself the decider on what a person should
post and what may be helpful, then you get to do it.  That sound OK? 
Oh, in the meantime, the person needing help can sit and wait while you
approve the reply if no one else can help or is available to help. 

In all honesty, I've been on this list for likely over a decade.  I try
to help people no matter what.  Case in point, the other Alan guy that
comes here and posts about his problems when it is his process that is
broken.  While most everyone else has given up on him, I still try to
help him.  However, if what I contribute here is not welcome, then I can
stop posting.  Then at least one person would be happy I guess.  It's
not like I don't have other things to do or anything either.  I just may
consider that option. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[Alan McKinnon]

On 24/06/2016 16:06, allan gottlieb wrote:
> Having read the latest news article and rereading parts of the
> localization guide, it is not clear to me what action, if any, I need to
> take.
> 
> My systems are US English only
> 
> /etc/portage/make.conf has
>    LINGUAS="en"
> 
> /etc/local.gen has just comments plus
>    en_US ISO-8859-1
>    en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8
> 
> Should I add
>    L10N="en-US"
> to /etc/portage/make.conf ?
> 
> Should I run local-gen ?
> 
> Thanks
> allan
> 

Add

L10N="en" to make.conf

"en" has no tweaks to be made to the new naming style so that's all you
do. Other folks who use, for example, Brazilian Portuguese, will need to
make tweaks and look up the correct value in the file the news item
references.

For now LINGUAS and L10N will work in parallel and the devs will do the
heavy lifting. For the moment all changes will be light touch, the big
tasks will happen later.

One day you will need to remove LINGUAS from make.conf entirely, but
that day is not today.

And all of this is necessary because making a USE_EXPAND env var called
LINGUAS was a really stupid idea from day one.


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[allan gottlieb]

On Fri, Jun 24 2016, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> On 24/06/2016 16:06, allan gottlieb wrote:
>> Having read the latest news article and rereading parts of the
>> localization guide, it is not clear to me what action, if any, I need to
>> take.
>> 
>> My systems are US English only
>> 
>> /etc/portage/make.conf has
>>    LINGUAS="en"
>> 
>> /etc/local.gen has just comments plus
>>    en_US ISO-8859-1
>>    en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8
>> 
>> Should I add
>>    L10N="en-US"
>> to /etc/portage/make.conf ?
>> 
>> Should I run local-gen ?
>> 
>> Thanks
>> allan
>> 
>
> Add
>
> L10N="en" to make.conf

Thanks.  Done.  Update world just generated

   [ebuild   R    ] app-text/texlive-2014  L10N="en*" 

all seems well.  Thanks again.
allan

Re: [gentoo-user] LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[Dale]

allan gottlieb wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 24 2016, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>
>> On 24/06/2016 16:06, allan gottlieb wrote:
>>> Having read the latest news article and rereading parts of the
>>> localization guide, it is not clear to me what action, if any, I need to
>>> take.
>>>
>>> My systems are US English only
>>>
>>> /etc/portage/make.conf has
>>>    LINGUAS="en"
>>>
>>> /etc/local.gen has just comments plus
>>>    en_US ISO-8859-1
>>>    en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8
>>>
>>> Should I add
>>>    L10N="en-US"
>>> to /etc/portage/make.conf ?
>>>
>>> Should I run local-gen ?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> allan
>>>
>> Add
>>
>> L10N="en" to make.conf
> Thanks.  Done.  Update world just generated
>
>    [ebuild   R    ] app-text/texlive-2014  L10N="en*" 
>
> all seems well.  Thanks again.
> allan
>
>

While I added what Alan posted, I also had to leave the others.  The
relevant part of my make.conf looks like this:

LANG="en_US"
LC_ALL="en_US.UTF8"
LINGUAS="en_US"
L10N="en en_US"

I tried to comment out the others but emerge always came back wanting to
remove some language. 

YMMV

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[Alan McKinnon]

On 24/06/2016 22:09, Dale wrote:
> allan gottlieb wrote:
>> On Fri, Jun 24 2016, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>
>>> On 24/06/2016 16:06, allan gottlieb wrote:
>>>> Having read the latest news article and rereading parts of the
>>>> localization guide, it is not clear to me what action, if any, I need to
>>>> take.
>>>>
>>>> My systems are US English only
>>>>
>>>> /etc/portage/make.conf has
>>>>     LINGUAS="en"
>>>>
>>>> /etc/local.gen has just comments plus
>>>>     en_US ISO-8859-1
>>>>     en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8
>>>>
>>>> Should I add
>>>>     L10N="en-US"
>>>> to /etc/portage/make.conf ?
>>>>
>>>> Should I run local-gen ?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> allan
>>>>
>>> Add
>>>
>>> L10N="en" to make.conf
>> Thanks.  Done.  Update world just generated
>>
>>     [ebuild   R    ] app-text/texlive-2014  L10N="en*"
>>
>> all seems well.  Thanks again.
>> allan
>>
>>
>
> While I added what Alan posted, I also had to leave the others.  The
> relevant part of my make.conf looks like this:
>
> LANG="en_US"
> LC_ALL="en_US.UTF8"
> LINGUAS="en_US"
> L10N="en en_US"

L10N="en en-US"


local derivatives of languages like en_GB, en_za have been tweaked 
according to the referenced new standard. Mostly it's little more than
s/_/-/g

LINGUAS and L10N must always logically match


>
> I tried to comment out the others but emerge always came back wanting to
> remove some language.
>
> YMMV
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>

Re: [gentoo-user] LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 24/06/2016 16:06, allan gottlieb wrote:
>> Having read the latest news article and rereading parts of the
>> localization guide, it is not clear to me what action, if any, I need to
>> take.
>>
>> My systems are US English only
>>
>> /etc/portage/make.conf has
>>    LINGUAS="en"
>>
>> /etc/local.gen has just comments plus
>>    en_US ISO-8859-1
>>    en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8
>>
>> Should I add
>>    L10N="en-US"
>> to /etc/portage/make.conf ?
>>
>> Should I run local-gen ?
>>
>> Thanks
>> allan
>>
> Add
>
> L10N="en" to make.conf
>
> "en" has no tweaks to be made to the new naming style so that's all you
> do. Other folks who use, for example, Brazilian Portuguese, will need to
> make tweaks and look up the correct value in the file the news item
> references.
>
> For now LINGUAS and L10N will work in parallel and the devs will do the
> heavy lifting. For the moment all changes will be light touch, the big
> tasks will happen later.
>
> One day you will need to remove LINGUAS from make.conf entirely, but
> that day is not today.
>
> And all of this is necessary because making a USE_EXPAND env var called
> LINGUAS was a really stupid idea from day one.
>
>

Since Alan's post makes more sense to me than the docs, I added the L10N
to make.conf and I got a clean output.  So, that works.  Mine is what
Alan posted.  I guess I'm ready for the future now.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[Alan McKinnon]

On 24/06/2016 20:58, Dale wrote:
> Since Alan's post makes more sense to me than the docs, I added the L10N
> to make.conf and I got a clean output.  So, that works.  Mine is what
> Alan posted.  I guess I'm ready for the future now.;-)
>


And gmail helpfully delivered half my mail after me being out for 3 
hours, then delivered the other half after I's replied. Meaning all my 
posts in the last 30 minutes are redundant.

Oh the joys of mail.... :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] LINGUAS, L10N, and local-gen

[Peter Humphrey]

On Friday 24 Jun 2016 22:33:38 Alan McKinnon wrote:

> ... all my posts in the last 30 minutes are redundant.

Er...

:-)

-- 
Rgds
Peter