[gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Mick]

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Hi All,

I've emerged the new xorg-server-1.5.3-r5, removed my xorg.conf as advised  
and noticed two things which I am not sure how to fix:

My keyboard layout is no longer UK, but US (I think); i.e. the # symbol is not 
next to the return key, but at Shift+3.  How can I change it back to UK?

I used to have this stanza in my xorg.conf to be able to switch languages:
=====================================================
Section "InputDevice"
        Identifier  "Keyboard0"
        Driver      "kbd"
        Option      "Name" "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard"
        Option      "XkbModel"  "pc105"
        Option      "XkbLayout" "gb,el"
        
Option      "XkbOptions" "grp:alt_shift_toggle,grp_led:scroll,compose:menu"
EndSection
=====================================================

How can I set up the same thing now?
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Mick wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I've emerged the new xorg-server-1.5.3-r5, removed my xorg.conf as advised
> and noticed two things which I am not sure how to fix:
>
> My keyboard layout is no longer UK, but US (I think); i.e. the # symbol is
> not next to the return key, but at Shift+3.  How can I change it back to
> UK?
>
> I used to have this stanza in my xorg.conf to be able to switch languages:
> =====================================================
> Section "InputDevice"
>         Identifier  "Keyboard0"
>         Driver      "kbd"
>         Option      "Name" "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard"
>         Option      "XkbModel"  "pc105"
>         Option      "XkbLayout" "gb,el"
>
> Option      "XkbOptions" "grp:alt_shift_toggle,grp_led:scroll,compose:menu"
> EndSection
> =====================================================
>
> How can I set up the same thing now?

create a xorg.conf?

is there really a part in the documentation that says you should remove it?

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tuesday 07 April 2009 10:39:45 Mick wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I've emerged the new xorg-server-1.5.3-r5, removed my xorg.conf as advised
> and noticed two things which I am not sure how to fix:
>
> My keyboard layout is no longer UK, but US (I think); i.e. the # symbol is
> not next to the return key, but at Shift+3.  How can I change it back to
> UK?


http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/x/x11/xorg-server-1.5-upgrade-guide.xml




>
> I used to have this stanza in my xorg.conf to be able to switch languages:
> =====================================================
> Section "InputDevice"
>         Identifier  "Keyboard0"
>         Driver      "kbd"
>         Option      "Name" "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard"
>         Option      "XkbModel"  "pc105"
>         Option      "XkbLayout" "gb,el"
>
> Option      "XkbOptions" "grp:alt_shift_toggle,grp_led:scroll,compose:menu"
> EndSection
> =====================================================
>
> How can I set up the same thing now?

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Khanh Nguyen]

** (Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 09:39:45AM +0100) Mick wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I've emerged the new xorg-server-1.5.3-r5, removed my xorg.conf as advised  
> and noticed two things which I am not sure how to fix:
> 
> My keyboard layout is no longer UK, but US (I think); i.e. the # symbol is not 
> next to the return key, but at Shift+3.  How can I change it back to UK?
> 
> I used to have this stanza in my xorg.conf to be able to switch languages:
> =====================================================
> Section "InputDevice"
>         Identifier  "Keyboard0"
>         Driver      "kbd"
>         Option      "Name" "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard"
>         Option      "XkbModel"  "pc105"
>         Option      "XkbLayout" "gb,el"
>         
> Option      "XkbOptions" "grp:alt_shift_toggle,grp_led:scroll,compose:menu"
> EndSection
> =====================================================
> 
> How can I set up the same thing now?

You can have at this:
http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-722498-highlight-hal+keyboard.html

Here's what I did.
I kept xorg.conf, but removed InputDevices.
Created the file /etc/hal/fdi/policy/10-x11-input.fdi 

You can try the following. Modify it after your needs and remember to
restart /etc/init.d/hald.

-------------------------- Start: /etc/hal/fdi/policy/10-x11-input.fdi
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1"?> <!-- -*- SGML -*- -->
<deviceinfo version="0.2">
  <device>
    <!-- Mouse {{{-->
    <match key="info.capabilities" contains="input.mouse">
      <merge key="input.x11_driver" type="string">evdev</merge>
    </match>
    <!-- }}}-->

    <!-- Keyboard {{{-->
    <match key="info.capabilities" contains="input.keymap">
      <append key="info.callouts.add" type="strlist">hal-setup-keymap</append>
    </match>

    <match key="info.capabilities"   contains="input.keys">
      <merge key="input.xkb.model"   type="string">evdev</merge>
      <merge key="input.xkb.driver"  type="string">evdev</merge>
      <merge key="input.xkb.layout"  type="string">gb,dk</merge>
      <merge key="input.xkb.rules"   type="string">xorg</merge>
      <!--merge key="input.xkb.variant" type="string"></merge-->
      <merge key="info.xkb.options"  type="string">
        grp:alt_shift_toggle,grp_led:scroll,compose:menu
      </merge>
    </match>
    <!-- }}}-->

    <!--  TOUCHPAD {{{-->
    <!--
    <match key="info.capabilities" contains="input.touchpad">
      <match key="info.product" contains="SynPS/2">
        <merge key="input.x11_driver" type="string">synaptics</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.SHMConfig" type="string">true</merge>
      </match>
    </match>
    -->
    <!-- }}}-->
  </device>
</deviceinfo>
-------------------------- End: /etc/hal/fdi/policy/10-x11-input.fdi

-- 
Khanh Nguyen

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Mick]

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On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Mick wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I've emerged the new xorg-server-1.5.3-r5, removed my xorg.conf as
> > advised and noticed two things which I am not sure how to fix:
> >
> > My keyboard layout is no longer UK, but US (I think); i.e. the # symbol
> > is not next to the return key, but at Shift+3.  How can I change it back
> > to UK?
> >
> > I used to have this stanza in my xorg.conf to be able to switch
> > languages: =====================================================
> > Section "InputDevice"
> >         Identifier  "Keyboard0"
> >         Driver      "kbd"
> >         Option      "Name" "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard"
> >         Option      "XkbModel"  "pc105"
> >         Option      "XkbLayout" "gb,el"
> >
> > Option      "XkbOptions"
> > "grp:alt_shift_toggle,grp_led:scroll,compose:menu" EndSection
> > =====================================================
> >
> > How can I set up the same thing now?
>
> create a xorg.conf?
>
> is there really a part in the documentation that says you should remove it?

Down the bottom under section 3:
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/x/x11/xorg-server-1.5-upgrade-guide.xml
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Mick]

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On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Tuesday 07 April 2009 10:39:45 Mick wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I've emerged the new xorg-server-1.5.3-r5, removed my xorg.conf as
> > advised and noticed two things which I am not sure how to fix:
> >
> > My keyboard layout is no longer UK, but US (I think); i.e. the # symbol
> > is not next to the return key, but at Shift+3.  How can I change it back
> > to UK?
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/x/x11/xorg-server-1.5-upgrade-guide.x
>ml

Thanks Alan, it seems that I had to reboot for the changes to take.  I forgot 
that hal does all the device management and restarting xorg is not enough.

I modified the /usr/share/doc/hal-0.5.11-r8/use-estonian-layout.fdi.bz2 
for "gb" and saved under /etc/hal/fdi/policy/10-xinput-configuration.fdi.  I 
now have the gb layout.

Now if I want multiple keyboards am I supposed to append 
use-multiple-layouts.fdi.bz2 into the same /10-xinput-configuration.fdi, or 
should I create a new 20-xinput-configuration.fdi, or should I replace the 
initially modified 10-xinput-configuration.fdi for gb with the 
use-multiple-layouts.fdi.bz2?

Also, what do these functions mean:

 Option "XkbOptions" "grp:caps_toggle,grp_led:caps,compose:ralt"
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Mick wrote:
> On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Mick wrote:
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > I've emerged the new xorg-server-1.5.3-r5, removed my xorg.conf as
> > > advised and noticed two things which I am not sure how to fix:
> > >
> > > My keyboard layout is no longer UK, but US (I think); i.e. the # symbol
> > > is not next to the return key, but at Shift+3.  How can I change it
> > > back to UK?
> > >
> > > I used to have this stanza in my xorg.conf to be able to switch
> > > languages: =====================================================
> > > Section "InputDevice"
> > >         Identifier  "Keyboard0"
> > >         Driver      "kbd"
> > >         Option      "Name" "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard"
> > >         Option      "XkbModel"  "pc105"
> > >         Option      "XkbLayout" "gb,el"
> > >
> > > Option      "XkbOptions"
> > > "grp:alt_shift_toggle,grp_led:scroll,compose:menu" EndSection
> > > =====================================================
> > >
> > > How can I set up the same thing now?
> >
> > create a xorg.conf?
> >
> > is there really a part in the documentation that says you should remove
> > it?
>
> Down the bottom under section 3:
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/x/x11/xorg-server-1.5-upgrade-guide.x
>ml


emm. No. There is nothing about removing xorg.conf.

but my real problem is that hal crap. In their fight to make x 'easier' they 
make it harder. keyboard layout is incorrect? well, bad luck, because hal's 
files are a bitch to deal with.

...

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tuesday 07 April 2009 09:46:45 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Mick wrote:
>
> > My keyboard layout is no longer UK, but US (I think); i.e. the # symbol
> > is not next to the return key, but at Shift+3.  How can I change it
> > back to UK?

I did it in KDE, but that's no help if you aren't using it.

> is there really a part in the documentation that says you should remove
> it?

Yes.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

[gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Nikos Chantziaras]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> [...]
> but my real problem is that hal crap. In their fight to make x 'easier' they 
> make it harder. keyboard layout is incorrect? well, bad luck, because hal's 
> files are a bitch to deal with.

I suppose the intention was for GUI tools to do the configuration, but 
as usual in Linux (:P) no one bothered because that would mean people 
won't learn.

So be happy.  You're learning how HAL syntax works.  That's good for 
you.  No?  ;-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tuesday 07 April 2009 13:02:28 Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > [...]
> > but my real problem is that hal crap. In their fight to make x 'easier'
> > they make it harder. keyboard layout is incorrect? well, bad luck,
> > because hal's files are a bitch to deal with.
>
> I suppose the intention was for GUI tools to do the configuration, but
> as usual in Linux (:P) no one bothered because that would mean people
> won't learn.
>
> So be happy.  You're learning how HAL syntax works.  That's good for
> you.  No?  ;-)

<tongue_in_cheek>

Yes, it's wonderful. Let's face it, replacing something like

  Driver         "evdev"

with

  <?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1"?><deviceinfo 
version="0.2"><device><match key="info.capabilities" 
contains="input.keys"><merge key="input.x11_driver" 
type="string">keyboard</merge><match 
key="/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/computer:system.kernel.name" 
string="Linux"><merge key="input.x11_driver" 
type="string">evdev</merge></match></match></device></deviceinfo>   


Is so OBVIOUSLY the correct way to go, and so OBVIOUSLY much easier. Right? I 
mean, what kind of twit do you have to be to not understand the hal files?

</tongue_in_cheek>

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Tuesday 07 April 2009 13:02:28 Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> > Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > but my real problem is that hal crap. In their fight to make x 'easier'
> > > they make it harder. keyboard layout is incorrect? well, bad luck,
> > > because hal's files are a bitch to deal with.
> >
> > I suppose the intention was for GUI tools to do the configuration, but
> > as usual in Linux (:P) no one bothered because that would mean people
> > won't learn.
> >
> > So be happy.  You're learning how HAL syntax works.  That's good for
> > you.  No?  ;-)
>
> <tongue_in_cheek>
>
> Yes, it's wonderful. Let's face it, replacing something like
>
>   Driver         "evdev"
>
> with
>
>   <?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1"?><deviceinfo
> version="0.2"><device><match key="info.capabilities"
> contains="input.keys"><merge key="input.x11_driver"
> type="string">keyboard</merge><match
> key="/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/computer:system.kernel.name"
> string="Linux"><merge key="input.x11_driver"
> type="string">evdev</merge></match></match></device></deviceinfo>
>
>
> Is so OBVIOUSLY the correct way to go, and so OBVIOUSLY much easier. Right?
> I mean, what kind of twit do you have to be to not understand the hal
> files?
>
> </tongue_in_cheek>

using xml is just the rotten icing on that shitcake.

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Dale]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Mick wrote:
>   
>> On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>     
>>>
>> Down the bottom under section 3:
>> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/x/x11/xorg-server-1.5-upgrade-guide.x
>> ml
>>     
>
>
> emm. No. There is nothing about removing xorg.conf.
>
> but my real problem is that hal crap. In their fight to make x 'easier' they 
> make it harder. keyboard layout is incorrect? well, bad luck, because hal's 
> files are a bitch to deal with.
>
> ...
>   

I think he is talking about this part:

3.  Configuring the graphics card

The "Device" section in your xorg.conf should mostly work unchanged.

However, if you have any issues, here's a few steps you can try:

    * Try commenting out all "Options" in the "Device", "Screen" and
      "Monitor" sections in your xorg.conf
    * Even better, try running Xorg without any xorg.conf (you can
      rename it to xorg.conf.old)


I got a pair but I'm not sure they are big enough to try that.  I'm
keeping mine if I upgrade and it works OK for me.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[sean]

Is there a repository somewhere that you can download fdi files for a
device?
It seems that would make things easier for all, since many people likely
use the same devices in exactly or closely similar ways?

I have to get my trackball working again the way I had before the upgrade.

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Paul Hartman]

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 9:14 AM, sean <tech.junk@myfairpoint.net> wrote:
> Is there a repository somewhere that you can download fdi files for a
> device?
> It seems that would make things easier for all, since many people likely
> use the same devices in exactly or closely similar ways?
>
> I have to get my trackball working again the way I had before the upgrade.

Not that I know of (but it's a good idea!); once you understand the
basic FDI syntax it is pretty easy to migrate your settings. Find the
device name of the trackball you want to set up in
/proc/bus/input/devices and then create an FDI which mimics the
settings you used in xorg.conf. The Ubuntu wiki has a decent little
tutorial on it:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Config/Input

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Paul Hartman wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 9:14 AM, sean <tech.junk@myfairpoint.net> wrote:
> > Is there a repository somewhere that you can download fdi files for a
> > device?
> > It seems that would make things easier for all, since many people likely
> > use the same devices in exactly or closely similar ways?
> >
> > I have to get my trackball working again the way I had before the
> > upgrade.
>
> Not that I know of (but it's a good idea!); once you understand the
> basic FDI syntax it is pretty easy to migrate your settings. Find the
> device name of the trackball you want to set up in
> /proc/bus/input/devices and then create an FDI which mimics the
> settings you used in xorg.conf. The Ubuntu wiki has a decent little
> tutorial on it:
>
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Config/Input

which pretty much makes hal a bad idea. 'use hal so you don't have to edit 
files' and then have to edit hal's convoluted xml files instead of the simple, 
easy to read xorg.conf ...

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Paul Hartman]

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 10:22 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Paul Hartman wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 9:14 AM, sean <tech.junk@myfairpoint.net> wrote:
>> > Is there a repository somewhere that you can download fdi files for a
>> > device?
>> > It seems that would make things easier for all, since many people likely
>> > use the same devices in exactly or closely similar ways?
>> >
>> > I have to get my trackball working again the way I had before the
>> > upgrade.
>>
>> Not that I know of (but it's a good idea!); once you understand the
>> basic FDI syntax it is pretty easy to migrate your settings. Find the
>> device name of the trackball you want to set up in
>> /proc/bus/input/devices and then create an FDI which mimics the
>> settings you used in xorg.conf. The Ubuntu wiki has a decent little
>> tutorial on it:
>>
>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Config/Input
>
> which pretty much makes hal a bad idea. 'use hal so you don't have to edit
> files' and then have to edit hal's convoluted xml files instead of the simple,
> easy to read xorg.conf ...

Well, I think ultimately it's part of a larger hotplugging idea and
autoconfig, not simply changing it from one format to another with no
additional reasons. Without hotplugging you needed to define
everything in xorg.conf but now you can skip the FDI unless you have
some customized configuration (and even things like keyboard layout
could be set up in gnome/kde/whatever rather than in xorg.conf/FDI).
But, yes, xorg.conf is certainly more human-readable than FDI files
for sure.

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Joseph]

On 04/07/09 17:22, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

>which pretty much makes hal a bad idea. 'use hal so you don't have to edit 
>files' and then have to edit hal's convoluted xml files instead of the simple, 
>easy to read xorg.conf ...

I'll second it, why complicate simple design; going from text file configuration to xml :-(
Did anybody managed going back to xorg-server-1.3

-- 
Joseph

[gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Nikos Chantziaras]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> which pretty much makes hal a bad idea. 'use hal so you don't have to edit 
> files' and then have to edit hal's convoluted xml files instead of the simple, 
> easy to read xorg.conf ...

I don't use HAL for this at all ;)  After a bit of hair-pulling, I 
arrived at this in my xorg.conf:

   Section "ServerFlags"
     Option "AutoAddDevices" "false"
   EndSection

   Section "InputDevice"
     Identifier "Keyboard1"
     Driver     "kbd"
     Option     "AutoRepeat" "250 30"
     Option     "XkbRules"   "xorg"
     Option     "XkbModel"   "microsoftinet"
   EndSection

   Section "InputDevice"
     Identifier      "Mouse1"
     Driver          "evdev"
     Option          "Protocol"      "auto"
     Option          "Device"        "/dev/input/event4"
     Option          "AccelerationProfile" "2"
     Option          "AdaptiveDeceleration" "2"
     Option          "FilterHalflife" "5"
     Option          "VelocityCoupling" "0.15"
     Option          "FilterChainLength" "8"
   EndSection

   Section "ServerLayout"
     # ...
     InputDevice "Mouse1"    "CorePointer"
     InputDevice "Keyboard1" "CoreKeyboard"
   EndSection

Works just fine.

Btw, the new mouse accelerator of X.Org 1.5 is awesome ;)

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 09:52:11 -0600, Joseph wrote:

> I'll second it, why complicate simple design; going from text file
> configuration to xml :-( Did anybody managed going back to
> xorg-server-1.3

You don't need to, 1.5 will quite happily use an xorg.conf file. It may
not need one in many cases, but that's far from stating it can't use one.
If you are happy setting up X with xorg.conf, carry on doing so.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I can resist everything except temptation.

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[gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Nikos Chantziaras]

Joseph wrote:
> On 04/07/09 17:22, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> 
>> which pretty much makes hal a bad idea. 'use hal so you don't have to 
>> edit files' and then have to edit hal's convoluted xml files instead 
>> of the simple, easy to read xorg.conf ...
> 
> I'll second it, why complicate simple design; going from text file 
> configuration to xml :-(

It's optional.  You can keep using xorg.conf.  See my other post for an 
example.

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Paul Hartman wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 10:22 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>
> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Paul Hartman wrote:
> >> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 9:14 AM, sean <tech.junk@myfairpoint.net> wrote:
> >> > Is there a repository somewhere that you can download fdi files for a
> >> > device?
> >> > It seems that would make things easier for all, since many people
> >> > likely use the same devices in exactly or closely similar ways?
> >> >
> >> > I have to get my trackball working again the way I had before the
> >> > upgrade.
> >>
> >> Not that I know of (but it's a good idea!); once you understand the
> >> basic FDI syntax it is pretty easy to migrate your settings. Find the
> >> device name of the trackball you want to set up in
> >> /proc/bus/input/devices and then create an FDI which mimics the
> >> settings you used in xorg.conf. The Ubuntu wiki has a decent little
> >> tutorial on it:
> >>
> >> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Config/Input
> >
> > which pretty much makes hal a bad idea. 'use hal so you don't have to
> > edit files' and then have to edit hal's convoluted xml files instead of
> > the simple, easy to read xorg.conf ...
>
> Well, I think ultimately it's part of a larger hotplugging idea and
> autoconfig, not simply changing it from one format to another with no
> additional reasons. Without hotplugging you needed to define
> everything in xorg.conf

no, not everything. I have been switching mice on the fly with running X for 
years. trackball, scroll whell mouse back to trackball back to mouse. No extra 
entry for the trackball needed - and no hal (the trackball is retired, as is 
the nice, simple three-button-scroll-wheel-mouse). 

 >but now you can skip the FDI unless you have
> some customized configuration

customized like a german layout with a german keyboard.. I wasn't the first 
nor the last one stepping into that trap.

> (and even things like keyboard layout
> could be set up in gnome/kde/whatever rather than in xorg.conf/FDI).

which doesn't help you with the xdm/kdm/gdm login screen.

> But, yes, xorg.conf is certainly more human-readable than FDI files
> for sure.

oooh yes.

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Mick]

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On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Paul Hartman wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 9:14 AM, sean <tech.junk@myfairpoint.net> wrote:
> > > Is there a repository somewhere that you can download fdi files for a
> > > device?
> > > It seems that would make things easier for all, since many people
> > > likely use the same devices in exactly or closely similar ways?
> > >
> > > I have to get my trackball working again the way I had before the
> > > upgrade.
> >
> > Not that I know of (but it's a good idea!); once you understand the
> > basic FDI syntax it is pretty easy to migrate your settings. Find the
> > device name of the trackball you want to set up in
> > /proc/bus/input/devices and then create an FDI which mimics the
> > settings you used in xorg.conf. The Ubuntu wiki has a decent little
> > tutorial on it:
> >
> > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Config/Input
>
> which pretty much makes hal a bad idea. 'use hal so you don't have to edit
> files' and then have to edit hal's convoluted xml files instead of the
> simple, easy to read xorg.conf ...

I've reached a point where I feel I need to move away from this, before I 
cause damage to something!  I am really annoyed that something which worked 
fine (for me and it seems others too) since late 2003, is now broken and 3 
hours later I am still struggling to get it working.

The human interface is NOT something people should be allowed to mess up in 
this fashion without providing exhaustive documentation.  People who want 
fancy GUIs to setup their windowing system have a solution already:  they use 
bloody MSWindows!  If they want to use Linux then they have Ubuntu.

For me the documentation is not exhaustive *because* three hours later I still 
cannot understand what <merge> <match> and <append> does.  The logic of the 
xml fdi file is not explained anywhere ... and it seems my guessing skills 
are poor when all I want to do is get on with my work, rather than take a 
test on reading the mind of xorg devs.

I have managed to:

1. Set gb as the default keyboard and used 
the /use-multiple-layouts-with-kbd.fdi.bz2 with some mods to be able to 
switch languages as before.
2. Set up the synaptics driver so that it performs a right area - vertical 
scroll.

However, I have failed to:

3. Effect a left click when I tap on the synaptics pad.
4. Double click on the synaptics pad.
5. Press Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to restart xorg

This is what my fdi currently looks like:
=====================================================
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<deviceinfo version="0.2">

<!-- Keyboard configuration -->
<device>
   <match key="info.capabilities" contains="input.keyboard">
   <merge key="input.x11_options.XkbModel" type="string">pc105</merge>
   <merge key="input.x11_options.XkbLayout" type="string">gb,el</merge>
   <merge key="input.x11_options.XkbOptions" 
type="strlist">grp:alt_shift_toggle,grp_led:scroll,compose:menu</merge>
</match>
</device>

<!-- touchpad -->
<device>
   <match key="info.capabilities" contains="input.touchpad">
   <match key="info.product" contains="SynPS/2">
        <merge key="input.x11_driver" type="string">synaptics</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.SHMConfig" type="string">true</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.VertEdgeScroll" 
type="string">true</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.HorizEdgeScroll" 
type="string">true</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.TapButton1" type="string">true</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.ClickButton1" type="string">true</merge>
   </match>
   </match>
</device>
</deviceinfo>
=====================================================

Can you please help?
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Mick wrote:
> On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Paul Hartman wrote:
> > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 9:14 AM, sean <tech.junk@myfairpoint.net> wrote:
> > > > Is there a repository somewhere that you can download fdi files for a
> > > > device?
> > > > It seems that would make things easier for all, since many people
> > > > likely use the same devices in exactly or closely similar ways?
> > > >
> > > > I have to get my trackball working again the way I had before the
> > > > upgrade.
> > >
> > > Not that I know of (but it's a good idea!); once you understand the
> > > basic FDI syntax it is pretty easy to migrate your settings. Find the
> > > device name of the trackball you want to set up in
> > > /proc/bus/input/devices and then create an FDI which mimics the
> > > settings you used in xorg.conf. The Ubuntu wiki has a decent little
> > > tutorial on it:
> > >
> > > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Config/Input
> >
> > which pretty much makes hal a bad idea. 'use hal so you don't have to
> > edit files' and then have to edit hal's convoluted xml files instead of
> > the simple, easy to read xorg.conf ...
>
> I've reached a point where I feel I need to move away from this, before I
> cause damage to something!  I am really annoyed that something which worked
> fine (for me and it seems others too) since late 2003, is now broken and 3
> hours later I am still struggling to get it working.
>
> The human interface is NOT something people should be allowed to mess up in
> this fashion without providing exhaustive documentation.  People who want
> fancy GUIs to setup their windowing system have a solution already:  they
> use bloody MSWindows!  If they want to use Linux then they have Ubuntu.
>
> For me the documentation is not exhaustive *because* three hours later I
> still cannot understand what <merge> <match> and <append> does.  The logic
> of the xml fdi file is not explained anywhere ... and it seems my guessing
> skills are poor when all I want to do is get on with my work, rather than
> take a test on reading the mind of xorg devs.
>
> I have managed to:
>
> 1. Set gb as the default keyboard and used
> the /use-multiple-layouts-with-kbd.fdi.bz2 with some mods to be able to
> switch languages as before.
> 2. Set up the synaptics driver so that it performs a right area - vertical
> scroll.
>
> However, I have failed to:
>
> 3. Effect a left click when I tap on the synaptics pad.
> 4. Double click on the synaptics pad.
> 5. Press Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to restart xorg
>
> This is what my fdi currently looks like:
> =====================================================
> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
> <deviceinfo version="0.2">
>
> <!-- Keyboard configuration -->
> <device>
>    <match key="info.capabilities" contains="input.keyboard">
>    <merge key="input.x11_options.XkbModel" type="string">pc105</merge>
>    <merge key="input.x11_options.XkbLayout" type="string">gb,el</merge>
>    <merge key="input.x11_options.XkbOptions"
> type="strlist">grp:alt_shift_toggle,grp_led:scroll,compose:menu</merge>
> </match>
> </device>
>
> <!-- touchpad -->
> <device>
>    <match key="info.capabilities" contains="input.touchpad">
>    <match key="info.product" contains="SynPS/2">
>         <merge key="input.x11_driver" type="string">synaptics</merge>
>         <merge key="input.x11_options.SHMConfig" type="string">true</merge>
>         <merge key="input.x11_options.VertEdgeScroll"
> type="string">true</merge>
>         <merge key="input.x11_options.HorizEdgeScroll"
> type="string">true</merge>
>         <merge key="input.x11_options.TapButton1"
> type="string">true</merge> <merge key="input.x11_options.ClickButton1"
> type="string">true</merge> </match>
>    </match>
> </device>
> </deviceinfo>
> =====================================================
>
> Can you please help?

just do the stuff in xorg.conf and hal's 'settings' should be ignored.

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Sebastian Günther]

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* Mick (michaelkintzios@gmail.com) [07.04.09 18:46]:
> 
> However, I have failed to:
> 
> 3. Effect a left click when I tap on the synaptics pad.
> 4. Double click on the synaptics pad.

Just a double check: you did recompile the synaptics driver from xorg?

Sebastian

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Mick]

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On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Sebastian Günther wrote:
> * Mick (michaelkintzios@gmail.com) [07.04.09 18:46]:
> > However, I have failed to:
> >
> > 3. Effect a left click when I tap on the synaptics pad.
> > 4. Double click on the synaptics pad.
>
> Just a double check: you did recompile the synaptics driver from xorg?

Yep, just as recommended in the elog.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Mick]

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On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Mick wrote:

> > However, I have failed to:
> >
> > 3. Effect a left click when I tap on the synaptics pad.
> > 4. Double click on the synaptics pad.
> > 5. Press Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to restart xorg

> >
> > Can you please help?
>
> just do the stuff in xorg.conf and hal's 'settings' should be ignored.

Believe you me I have been tempted a lot to do just that!  What I am worried 
though is that soon they will decide to no longer recognise the old xorg.conf 
and the switch will happen just at the moment I have no time to learn all 
this xml format.  I am trying to pre-empt this going bad on me, if I 
hopefully put in the effort now.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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[gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[ABCD]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> no, not everything. I have been switching mice on the fly with running X for 
> years. trackball, scroll whell mouse back to trackball back to mouse. No extra 
> entry for the trackball needed - and no hal (the trackball is retired, as is 
> the nice, simple three-button-scroll-wheel-mouse). 

That actually is a special case, as all mice share a single device,
/dev/input/mice, as well as each having their own device,
/dev/input/mouse{0,1,2,...}.  In this case, the kernel itself handles
hotplugging, and X only saw /dev/input/mice.

- --
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[sean]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> 
> just do the stuff in xorg.conf and hal's 'settings' should be ignored.
> 
> 
> 

My xorg.conf is being ignored for my trackball settings.
Is there something that needs to be added somewhere for the conf file to
be read?

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Tuesday 07 April 2009, sean wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > just do the stuff in xorg.conf and hal's 'settings' should be ignored.
>
> My xorg.conf is being ignored for my trackball settings.
> Is there something that needs to be added somewhere for the conf file to
> be read?

you could tell hald to ignore input devices.

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Daniel Barkalow]

On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, Mick wrote:

> I have managed to:
> 
> 1. Set gb as the default keyboard and used 
> the /use-multiple-layouts-with-kbd.fdi.bz2 with some mods to be able to 
> switch languages as before.
> 2. Set up the synaptics driver so that it performs a right area - vertical 
> scroll.
> 
> However, I have failed to:
> 
> 3. Effect a left click when I tap on the synaptics pad.
> 4. Double click on the synaptics pad.
> 5. Press Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to restart xorg
> 
> This is what my fdi currently looks like:
> =====================================================
> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
> <deviceinfo version="0.2">
> 
> <!-- Keyboard configuration -->
> <device>
>    <match key="info.capabilities" contains="input.keyboard">
>    <merge key="input.x11_options.XkbModel" type="string">pc105</merge>
>    <merge key="input.x11_options.XkbLayout" type="string">gb,el</merge>
>    <merge key="input.x11_options.XkbOptions" 
> type="strlist">grp:alt_shift_toggle,grp_led:scroll,compose:menu</merge>
> </match>
> </device>
> 
> <!-- touchpad -->
> <device>
>    <match key="info.capabilities" contains="input.touchpad">
>    <match key="info.product" contains="SynPS/2">
>         <merge key="input.x11_driver" type="string">synaptics</merge>
>         <merge key="input.x11_options.SHMConfig" type="string">true</merge>
>         <merge key="input.x11_options.VertEdgeScroll" 
> type="string">true</merge>
>         <merge key="input.x11_options.HorizEdgeScroll" 
> type="string">true</merge>
>         <merge key="input.x11_options.TapButton1" type="string">true</merge>

Looks from the forum thread like the value of "TapButton1" should be a 
button number, not a boolean. Someone reported success with:

          <merge key="input.x11_options.TapButton1" type="string">1</merge>

I suspect that the ctrl-alt-backspace thing (assuming ctrl, alt, and 
backspace are working for you otherwise) is that DontZap is ending up 
true, either by default or configuration. I think this has to be in 
xorg.conf, in ServerFlags, and is Option "DontZap" "false".

Of course, I haven't gotten my keyboard to work right, and I haven't used 
the synaptics driver myself, so I could be entirely wrong.

>         <merge key="input.x11_options.ClickButton1" type="string">true</merge>
>    </match>
>    </match>
> </device>
> </deviceinfo>
> =====================================================
> 
> Can you please help?
> -- 
> Regards,
> Mick
> 

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[sean]

Joseph wrote:
> On 04/07/09 17:22, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> 
>> which pretty much makes hal a bad idea. 'use hal so you don't have to
>> edit files' and then have to edit hal's convoluted xml files instead
>> of the simple, easy to read xorg.conf ...
> 
> I'll second it, why complicate simple design; going from text file
> configuration to xml :-(
> 
> 

I agree, right now it is a step backward. A nasty one.
But if there were some sort of repository that you could just download a
config, or it automatically fetches, then that would be an improvement.

If the repository was setup for example like the Gentoo-Portage.com site
interface, it might make things real easy.

Just think, you search for a device like a Kensington Mouse or keyboard.
A list is presented of what features a config which has been created
will do for that device, you pick and download it into the proper
directory, done!

Of course also set things up so people could upload a config they have
made or tweaked with some details of what it does.


			

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 898 bytes --]

On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Daniel Barkalow wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, Mick wrote:

> >         <merge key="input.x11_options.TapButton1"
> > type="string">true</merge>
>
> Looks from the forum thread like the value of "TapButton1" should be a
> button number, not a boolean. Someone reported success with:
>
>           <merge key="input.x11_options.TapButton1" type="string">1</merge>

Duh!  Of course, it is an integer value - in my rush to get it working I typed 
in "true" when I wanted to type "1".

> I suspect that the ctrl-alt-backspace thing (assuming ctrl, alt, and
> backspace are working for you otherwise) is that DontZap is ending up
> true, either by default or configuration. I think this has to be in
> xorg.conf, in ServerFlags, and is Option "DontZap" "false".

Right, so this *has* to be an xorg.conf entry.

Thank you for your help.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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[gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[7v5w7go9ub0o]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> On Tuesday 07 April 2009 13:02:28 Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>>> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>> but my real problem is that hal crap. In their fight to make x 'easier'
>>>> they make it harder. keyboard layout is incorrect? well, bad luck,
>>>> because hal's files are a bitch to deal with.
>>> I suppose the intention was for GUI tools to do the configuration, but
>>> as usual in Linux (:P) no one bothered because that would mean people
>>> won't learn.
>>>
>>> So be happy.  You're learning how HAL syntax works.  That's good for
>>> you.  No?  ;-)
>> <tongue_in_cheek>
>>
>> Yes, it's wonderful. Let's face it, replacing something like
>>
>>   Driver         "evdev"
>>
>> with
>>
>>   <?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1"?><deviceinfo
>> version="0.2"><device><match key="info.capabilities"
>> contains="input.keys"><merge key="input.x11_driver"
>> type="string">keyboard</merge><match
>> key="/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/computer:system.kernel.name"
>> string="Linux"><merge key="input.x11_driver"
>> type="string">evdev</merge></match></match></device></deviceinfo>
>>
>>
>> Is so OBVIOUSLY the correct way to go, and so OBVIOUSLY much easier. Right?
>> I mean, what kind of twit do you have to be to not understand the hal
>> files?
>>
>> </tongue_in_cheek>
> 
> using xml is just the rotten icing on that shitcake.
> 

Heh....    "-hal" worked just fine for this newbie!

Thankfully, the upgrade guide owned-up to that option.

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Paul Hartman]

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Paul Hartman wrote:
>  >but now you can skip the FDI unless you have
>> some customized configuration
>
> customized like a german layout with a german keyboard.. I wasn't the first
> nor the last one stepping into that trap.

I only have US keyboards so I can't say how it should be done. :)
According to the message when you emerge hal, it says:

 * If you wish to use a non US layout, you may do so by executing:
 * setxkbmap <layout> or by utilizing your Desktop Environment's
 * Keyboard Layout Settings mechanism.
 * Under GNOME, this is gnome-keyboard-properties, and under KDE
 * it is kxkb.

So I think setting it in xorg.conf is easier, but at least it is not
absolutely required if you can run setxkbmap in your xdm startup. :)

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Mittwoch 08 April 2009, Paul Hartman wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>
> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Paul Hartman wrote:
> >  >but now you can skip the FDI unless you have
> >>
> >> some customized configuration
> >
> > customized like a german layout with a german keyboard.. I wasn't the
> > first nor the last one stepping into that trap.
>
> I only have US keyboards so I can't say how it should be done. :)
> According to the message when you emerge hal, it says:
>
>  * If you wish to use a non US layout, you may do so by executing:
>  * setxkbmap <layout> or by utilizing your Desktop Environment's
>  * Keyboard Layout Settings mechanism.
>  * Under GNOME, this is gnome-keyboard-properties, and under KDE
>  * it is kxkb.
>
> So I think setting it in xorg.conf is easier, but at least it is not
> absolutely required if you can run setxkbmap in your xdm startup. :)

which is so idiotic I won't even comment on that any further.

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Paul Hartman]

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Mittwoch 08 April 2009, Paul Hartman wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>>
>> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> > On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Paul Hartman wrote:
>> >  >but now you can skip the FDI unless you have
>> >>
>> >> some customized configuration
>> >
>> > customized like a german layout with a german keyboard.. I wasn't the
>> > first nor the last one stepping into that trap.
>>
>> I only have US keyboards so I can't say how it should be done. :)
>> According to the message when you emerge hal, it says:
>>
>>  * If you wish to use a non US layout, you may do so by executing:
>>  * setxkbmap <layout> or by utilizing your Desktop Environment's
>>  * Keyboard Layout Settings mechanism.
>>  * Under GNOME, this is gnome-keyboard-properties, and under KDE
>>  * it is kxkb.
>>
>> So I think setting it in xorg.conf is easier, but at least it is not
>> absolutely required if you can run setxkbmap in your xdm startup. :)
>
> which is so idiotic I won't even comment on that any further.

I think editing /etc/hal/fdi/policy/10-keymap.fdi is easier than that, even. :)

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[pk]

sean wrote:
> I agree, right now it is a step backward. A nasty one.
> But if there were some sort of repository that you could just download a
> config, or it automatically fetches, then that would be an improvement.
> 
> If the repository was setup for example like the Gentoo-Portage.com site
> interface, it might make things real easy.
> 
> Just think, you search for a device like a Kensington Mouse or keyboard.
> A list is presented of what features a config which has been created
> will do for that device, you pick and download it into the proper
> directory, done!
> 
> Of course also set things up so people could upload a config they have
> made or tweaked with some details of what it does.

<sarcasm>
Yay! Think of all the wonderful variants we could have; people with UK
keyboard with Chinese layout! Hurray for automated configuration!
</sarcasm>

Best regards

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Tony Davison]

On Tuesday 07 April 2009 12:25:07 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> >
> > Is so OBVIOUSLY the correct way to go, and so OBVIOUSLY much easier.
> > Right? I mean, what kind of twit do you have to be to not understand the
> > hal files?
> >
> > </tongue_in_cheek>
>
> using xml is just the rotten icing on that shitcake.

There was a building up the road from here that proudly proclaimed, Software 
AG The XML Company.

Now the carpark is empty and the sign on the gate reads, Office To Let.

-- 
BigTone

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Mittwoch 08 April 2009, Paul Hartman wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>
> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Mittwoch 08 April 2009, Paul Hartman wrote:
> >> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> >>
> >> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >> > On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Paul Hartman wrote:
> >> >  >but now you can skip the FDI unless you have
> >> >>
> >> >> some customized configuration
> >> >
> >> > customized like a german layout with a german keyboard.. I wasn't the
> >> > first nor the last one stepping into that trap.
> >>
> >> I only have US keyboards so I can't say how it should be done. :)
> >> According to the message when you emerge hal, it says:
> >>
> >>  * If you wish to use a non US layout, you may do so by executing:
> >>  * setxkbmap <layout> or by utilizing your Desktop Environment's
> >>  * Keyboard Layout Settings mechanism.
> >>  * Under GNOME, this is gnome-keyboard-properties, and under KDE
> >>  * it is kxkb.
> >>
> >> So I think setting it in xorg.conf is easier, but at least it is not
> >> absolutely required if you can run setxkbmap in your xdm startup. :)
> >
> > which is so idiotic I won't even comment on that any further.
>
> I think editing /etc/hal/fdi/policy/10-keymap.fdi is easier than that,
> even. :)

and I think editing xorg.conf is the easiest way.

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Alan McKinnon]

On Friday 15 May 2009 18:03:21 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Mittwoch 08 April 2009, Paul Hartman wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> >
> > <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:

> > >> So I think setting it in xorg.conf is easier, but at least it is not
> > >> absolutely required if you can run setxkbmap in your xdm startup. :)
> > >
> > > which is so idiotic I won't even comment on that any further.
> >
> > I think editing /etc/hal/fdi/policy/10-keymap.fdi is easier than that,
> > even. :)
>
> and I think editing xorg.conf is the easiest way.

I think dumping hal for the stupid piece of software it is and moving to 
devicekit like the developer intends, is an even easier way...

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Friday 15 May 2009 18:03:21 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>   
>> On Mittwoch 08 April 2009, Paul Hartman wrote:
>>     
>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>>>
>>> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>       
>
>   
>>>>> So I think setting it in xorg.conf is easier, but at least it is not
>>>>> absolutely required if you can run setxkbmap in your xdm startup. :)
>>>>>           
>>>> which is so idiotic I won't even comment on that any further.
>>>>         
>>> I think editing /etc/hal/fdi/policy/10-keymap.fdi is easier than that,
>>> even. :)
>>>       
>> and I think editing xorg.conf is the easiest way.
>>     
>
> I think dumping hal for the stupid piece of software it is and moving to 
> devicekit like the developer intends, is an even easier way...
>
>   

Since the "new" xorg-server was a complete flop here, when will this
devicekit option be coming?  Please tell me it will be easier that hal is.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Friday 15 May 2009 18:03:21 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>   
>> On Mittwoch 08 April 2009, Paul Hartman wrote:
>>     
>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>>>
>>> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>       
>
>   
>>>>> So I think setting it in xorg.conf is easier, but at least it is not
>>>>> absolutely required if you can run setxkbmap in your xdm startup. :)
>>>>>           
>>>> which is so idiotic I won't even comment on that any further.
>>>>         
>>> I think editing /etc/hal/fdi/policy/10-keymap.fdi is easier than that,
>>> even. :)
>>>       
>> and I think editing xorg.conf is the easiest way.
>>     
>
> I think dumping hal for the stupid piece of software it is and moving to 
> devicekit like the developer intends, is an even easier way...
>
>   

Since the "new" xorg-server was a complete flop here, when will this
devicekit option be coming?  Please tell me it will be easier that hal is.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Alan McKinnon]

On Friday 15 May 2009 18:42:10 Dale wrote:
> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > On Friday 15 May 2009 18:03:21 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> >> On Mittwoch 08 April 2009, Paul Hartman wrote:
> >>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> >>>
> >>> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> So I think setting it in xorg.conf is easier, but at least it is not
> >>>>> absolutely required if you can run setxkbmap in your xdm startup. :)
> >>>>
> >>>> which is so idiotic I won't even comment on that any further.
> >>>
> >>> I think editing /etc/hal/fdi/policy/10-keymap.fdi is easier than that,
> >>> even. :)
> >>
> >> and I think editing xorg.conf is the easiest way.
> >
> > I think dumping hal for the stupid piece of software it is and moving to
> > devicekit like the developer intends, is an even easier way...
>
> Since the "new" xorg-server was a complete flop here, when will this
> devicekit option be coming?  Please tell me it will be easier that hal is.

I have no idea, sorry :-(

DeviceKit isn't even in portage yet and not many packages support it. I don't 
even know if the devs will change and improve the configs much, if at all. The 
problem with hal is that it's code base is a mess, and it's design is a mish-
mash of stuff throwwn together. At least, that's what the lead hal dev says

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Paul Hartman]

On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Since the "new" xorg-server was a complete flop here, when will this
> devicekit option be coming?  Please tell me it will be easier that hal is.

It (xorg+hal/fdi config) has worked fine for me since day 1 (and
continues to work), using a fully ~amd64 system. So not a complete
flop. And xorg devs have been using it like that for something like 5
years. I think the migration from one style of config to another was
more the cause of many people's problems generally. I don't know
anything about devicekit but I would bet the config & operation would
be close to that of hal/fdi than the old xorg.conf style.

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Freitag 15 Mai 2009, Paul Hartman wrote:
> On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Since the "new" xorg-server was a complete flop here, when will this
> > devicekit option be coming?  Please tell me it will be easier that hal
> > is.
>
> It (xorg+hal/fdi config) has worked fine for me since day 1 (and
> continues to work), using a fully ~amd64 system. So not a complete
> flop. And xorg devs have been using it like that for something like 5
> years. I think the migration from one style of config to another was
> more the cause of many people's problems generally. I don't know
> anything about devicekit but I would bet the config & operation would
> be close to that of hal/fdi than the old xorg.conf style.

because you use a keyboard with us layout and a standard mouse,

Everybody else was screwed

And what the devs use it not a good measurement. Devs also have used ext3 or 
4k stack in the past....

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Dale]

Paul Hartman wrote:
> On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> Since the "new" xorg-server was a complete flop here, when will this
>> devicekit option be coming?  Please tell me it will be easier that hal is.
>>     
>
> It (xorg+hal/fdi config) has worked fine for me since day 1 (and
> continues to work), using a fully ~amd64 system. So not a complete
> flop. And xorg devs have been using it like that for something like 5
> years. I think the migration from one style of config to another was
> more the cause of many people's problems generally. I don't know
> anything about devicekit but I would bet the config & operation would
> be close to that of hal/fdi than the old xorg.conf style.
>
>
>   

I never said it was a flop for anyone else, just that it was a flop
here.  I couldn't get a GUI working until I went back to the old
xorg-server and even recompiled a few other things.  I masked that puppy
and it will be masked for a while here.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Friday 15 May 2009 18:42:10 Dale wrote:
>   
>> Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>     
>>> On Friday 15 May 2009 18:03:21 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>>       
>>>> On Mittwoch 08 April 2009, Paul Hartman wrote:
>>>>         
>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>>>>>
>>>>> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>           
>>>>>>> So I think setting it in xorg.conf is easier, but at least it is not
>>>>>>> absolutely required if you can run setxkbmap in your xdm startup. :)
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> which is so idiotic I won't even comment on that any further.
>>>>>>             
>>>>> I think editing /etc/hal/fdi/policy/10-keymap.fdi is easier than that,
>>>>> even. :)
>>>>>           
>>>> and I think editing xorg.conf is the easiest way.
>>>>         
>>> I think dumping hal for the stupid piece of software it is and moving to
>>> devicekit like the developer intends, is an even easier way...
>>>       
>> Since the "new" xorg-server was a complete flop here, when will this
>> devicekit option be coming?  Please tell me it will be easier that hal is.
>>     
>
> I have no idea, sorry :-(
>
> DeviceKit isn't even in portage yet and not many packages support it. I don't 
> even know if the devs will change and improve the configs much, if at all. The 
> problem with hal is that it's code base is a mess, and it's design is a mish-
> mash of stuff throwwn together. At least, that's what the lead hal dev says
>
>   

Well I won't disagree on it being a mess.  I may make a fresh backup and
try xorg-server one day but I still have a bad taste in my mouth from
the last time.  I was hoping maybe something better was on the way.

< sighs >

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[pk]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> DeviceKit isn't even in portage yet and not many packages support it. I don't 
> even know if the devs will change and improve the configs much, if at all. The 
> problem with hal is that it's code base is a mess, and it's design is a mish-
> mash of stuff throwwn together. At least, that's what the lead hal dev says

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DeviceKit#Dependencies

I haven't looked into this in any depth but it seems like Devicekit will
not be an improvement (looks like it brings in the "kitchen sink" in
dependencies - I'm also "allergic" to gnome)...

Best regards

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Freitag 15 Mai 2009, pk wrote:
> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > DeviceKit isn't even in portage yet and not many packages support it. I
> > don't even know if the devs will change and improve the configs much, if
> > at all. The problem with hal is that it's code base is a mess, and it's
> > design is a mish- mash of stuff throwwn together. At least, that's what
> > the lead hal dev says
>
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DeviceKit#Dependencies
>
> I haven't looked into this in any depth but it seems like Devicekit will
> not be an improvement (looks like it brings in the "kitchen sink" in
> dependencies - I'm also "allergic" to gnome)...

in my opinion a 'solution' that is based on the worst desktop (gnome) is the 
worst possible 'solution'. What about kde users? what about xfce? fluxbox? 
enlightenment users?

Fedora screws everybody over. Like always. 

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Aaron Clark]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Freitag 15 Mai 2009, pk wrote:
>> Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>> DeviceKit isn't even in portage yet and not many packages support it. I
>>> don't even know if the devs will change and improve the configs much, if
>>> at all. The problem with hal is that it's code base is a mess, and it's
>>> design is a mish- mash of stuff throwwn together. At least, that's what
>>> the lead hal dev says
>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DeviceKit#Dependencies
>>
>> I haven't looked into this in any depth but it seems like Devicekit will
>> not be an improvement (looks like it brings in the "kitchen sink" in
>> dependencies - I'm also "allergic" to gnome)...
> 
> in my opinion a 'solution' that is based on the worst desktop (gnome) is the 
> worst possible 'solution'. What about kde users? what about xfce? fluxbox? 
> enlightenment users?
> 
> Fedora screws everybody over. Like always. 
> 

Um... that dependencies list is the dependencies for the feature to get 
done for Fedora.  I would be shocked if the HAL replacement is dependent 
on Nautilus.

Honestly, most of the libraries on that list are stuff likely already in 
the LSB (which btw includes both gnome stuff as well as Qt and Phonon) 
so while it may not be in your system it's not crazy to depend on.  Tone 
down the Gnome/Fedora hate.

Aaron

[gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Nikos Chantziaras]

pk wrote:
> Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> DeviceKit isn't even in portage yet and not many packages support it. I don't 
>> even know if the devs will change and improve the configs much, if at all. The 
>> problem with hal is that it's code base is a mess, and it's design is a mish-
>> mash of stuff throwwn together. At least, that's what the lead hal dev says
> 
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DeviceKit#Dependencies
> 
> I haven't looked into this in any depth but it seems like Devicekit will
> not be an improvement (looks like it brings in the "kitchen sink" in
> dependencies - I'm also "allergic" to gnome)...

I don't see how it depends on Gnome.  In any case, it's not obvious to 
me from either the link you posted nor from DeviceKit's homepage.

Re: [gentoo-user] New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Mark Knecht]

On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Freitag 15 Mai 2009, pk wrote:
>> Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> > DeviceKit isn't even in portage yet and not many packages support it. I
>> > don't even know if the devs will change and improve the configs much, if
>> > at all. The problem with hal is that it's code base is a mess, and it's
>> > design is a mish- mash of stuff throwwn together. At least, that's what
>> > the lead hal dev says
>>
>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DeviceKit#Dependencies
>>
>> I haven't looked into this in any depth but it seems like Devicekit will
>> not be an improvement (looks like it brings in the "kitchen sink" in
>> dependencies - I'm also "allergic" to gnome)...
>
> in my opinion a 'solution' that is based on the worst desktop (gnome) is the
> worst possible 'solution'. What about kde users? what about xfce? fluxbox?
> enlightenment users?
>
> Fedora screws everybody over. Like always.
>

Now that seems a bit strong. Presumably they aren't screwing over
Fedora 11 Gnome users. (Draw Venn diagram now to look for small
portion...)

I don't disagree with you but it would seem that they have to start somewhere...

Cheers,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Alan McKinnon]

On Friday 15 May 2009 22:38:30 Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> pk wrote:
> > Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >> DeviceKit isn't even in portage yet and not many packages support it. I
> >> don't even know if the devs will change and improve the configs much, if
> >> at all. The problem with hal is that it's code base is a mess, and it's
> >> design is a mish- mash of stuff throwwn together. At least, that's what
> >> the lead hal dev says
> >
> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DeviceKit#Dependencies
> >
> > I haven't looked into this in any depth but it seems like Devicekit will
> > not be an improvement (looks like it brings in the "kitchen sink" in
> > dependencies - I'm also "allergic" to gnome)...
>
> I don't see how it depends on Gnome.  In any case, it's not obvious to
> me from either the link you posted nor from DeviceKit's homepage.

The only useful app using DeviceKit at this point depends on gnome.

So to get DeviceKit to do anything at all, you need gnome. This is due to 
current circumstance, not design.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

[gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Nikos Chantziaras]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Friday 15 May 2009 22:38:30 Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>> pk wrote:
>>> Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>>> DeviceKit isn't even in portage yet and not many packages support it. I
>>>> don't even know if the devs will change and improve the configs much, if
>>>> at all. The problem with hal is that it's code base is a mess, and it's
>>>> design is a mish- mash of stuff throwwn together. At least, that's what
>>>> the lead hal dev says
>>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DeviceKit#Dependencies
>>>
>>> I haven't looked into this in any depth but it seems like Devicekit will
>>> not be an improvement (looks like it brings in the "kitchen sink" in
>>> dependencies - I'm also "allergic" to gnome)...
>> I don't see how it depends on Gnome.  In any case, it's not obvious to
>> me from either the link you posted nor from DeviceKit's homepage.
> 
> The only useful app using DeviceKit at this point depends on gnome.
> 
> So to get DeviceKit to do anything at all, you need gnome. This is due to 
> current circumstance, not design.

Then I suppose everyone else will switch to DeviceKit at some point?  If 
it's better than HAL then why criticize DeviceKit at all?  Isn't this 
what we want, getting away from HAL?

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Alan McKinnon]

On Friday 15 May 2009 22:51:41 Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > On Friday 15 May 2009 22:38:30 Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> >> pk wrote:
> >>> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >>>> DeviceKit isn't even in portage yet and not many packages support it.
> >>>> I don't even know if the devs will change and improve the configs
> >>>> much, if at all. The problem with hal is that it's code base is a
> >>>> mess, and it's design is a mish- mash of stuff throwwn together. At
> >>>> least, that's what the lead hal dev says
> >>>
> >>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DeviceKit#Dependencies
> >>>
> >>> I haven't looked into this in any depth but it seems like Devicekit
> >>> will not be an improvement (looks like it brings in the "kitchen sink"
> >>> in dependencies - I'm also "allergic" to gnome)...
> >>
> >> I don't see how it depends on Gnome.  In any case, it's not obvious to
> >> me from either the link you posted nor from DeviceKit's homepage.
> >
> > The only useful app using DeviceKit at this point depends on gnome.
> >
> > So to get DeviceKit to do anything at all, you need gnome. This is due to
> > current circumstance, not design.
>
> Then I suppose everyone else will switch to DeviceKit at some point?  If
> it's better than HAL then why criticize DeviceKit at all?  Isn't this
> what we want, getting away from HAL?

I'm not sure who's criticizing DeviceKit, but it isn't me :-)

Fedora seems serious about DeviceKit, and have learned from the mistakes they 
made with hal. I've heard rumours that F11 will ship with DeviceKit, but at 
this early stage very few apps use it of course.


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 658 bytes --]

On Friday 15 May 2009, Tony Davison wrote:
> On Tuesday 07 April 2009 12:25:07 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Tuesday 07 April 2009, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > Is so OBVIOUSLY the correct way to go, and so OBVIOUSLY much easier.
> > > Right? I mean, what kind of twit do you have to be to not understand
> > > the hal files?
> > >
> > > </tongue_in_cheek>
> >
> > using xml is just the rotten icing on that shitcake.
>
> There was a building up the road from here that proudly proclaimed,
> Software AG The XML Company.
>
> Now the carpark is empty and the sign on the gate reads, Office To Let.

HA! HA! HA!  :))

-- 
Regards,
Mick

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[pk]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> I'm not sure who's criticizing DeviceKit, but it isn't me :-)

I guess it was me... :-)

I find this thread interesting:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg/2009-May/045561.html

...especially this:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg/2009-May/045574.html

Which seems like a much more sane way... to me. I don't know what BSD
and other platforms use (instead of Udev) but I'm sure one could come up
with a common API.

Mvh

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Alan McKinnon]

On Saturday 16 May 2009 19:14:17 pk wrote:
> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > I'm not sure who's criticizing DeviceKit, but it isn't me :-)
>
> I guess it was me... :-)
>
> I find this thread interesting:
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg/2009-May/045561.html
>
> ...especially this:
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg/2009-May/045574.html
>
> Which seems like a much more sane way... to me. I don't know what BSD
> and other platforms use (instead of Udev) but I'm sure one could come up
> with a common API.

Sometimes you have to make several horrendous errors to know what to not do 
and thereby deduce what you should do - the only version 3 rule of thumb :-)

From threads involving the hal maintainers I get the idea that the problem is 
not so much the idea of hal, but rather it's implementation. And then there's 
those fdi files...

As I see it, at the bottom of the stack you have a kernel and at the top a 
user space app (the X server will do for an example). Plug in a USB device 
that the app can use, and the kernel needs to make a node in /dev for it if 
it's not already there. The kernel should not be interrogating the device for 
all possible info - that is expensive - and doesn't need to. It only needs 
enough info to know what driver, major and minor numbers to use. X OTOH, can 
successfully use much more info. If you have a 19 button mouse, it would like 
to know and could even use it as a one-handed keyboard (extreme example). So 
the current model uses udev as the interface to the kernel's nodes and HAL as 
the interface to exactly what hardware you have. Seems pretty sane for the 
most usual use case. At some point in the stack you will need the OS-dependant 
part, my guess is the best place is between hal and udev. Only Linux uses 
udev, but all OSes use something in that spot. And if not, they have static 
nodes.

Meanwhile we have an acknowledged problem with hal - it's too complex, too 
many things have been shoved into it that were never catered for in the 
design, configuration is horrific - and the devs are having their usual 
spirited debate about how best to approach a solution. This is perfectly 
normal and perfectly healthy

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Saturday 16 May 2009 19:14:17 pk wrote:
>   
>> Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>     
>>> I'm not sure who's criticizing DeviceKit, but it isn't me :-)
>>>       
>> I guess it was me... :-)
>>
>> I find this thread interesting:
>> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg/2009-May/045561.html
>>
>> ...especially this:
>> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg/2009-May/045574.html
>>
>> Which seems like a much more sane way... to me. I don't know what BSD
>> and other platforms use (instead of Udev) but I'm sure one could come up
>> with a common API.
>>     
>
> Sometimes you have to make several horrendous errors to know what to not do 
> and thereby deduce what you should do - the only version 3 rule of thumb :-)
>
> From threads involving the hal maintainers I get the idea that the problem is 
> not so much the idea of hal, but rather it's implementation. And then there's 
> those fdi files...
>
> As I see it, at the bottom of the stack you have a kernel and at the top a 
> user space app (the X server will do for an example). Plug in a USB device 
> that the app can use, and the kernel needs to make a node in /dev for it if 
> it's not already there. The kernel should not be interrogating the device for 
> all possible info - that is expensive - and doesn't need to. It only needs 
> enough info to know what driver, major and minor numbers to use. X OTOH, can 
> successfully use much more info. If you have a 19 button mouse, it would like 
> to know and could even use it as a one-handed keyboard (extreme example). So 
> the current model uses udev as the interface to the kernel's nodes and HAL as 
> the interface to exactly what hardware you have. Seems pretty sane for the 
> most usual use case. At some point in the stack you will need the OS-dependant 
> part, my guess is the best place is between hal and udev. Only Linux uses 
> udev, but all OSes use something in that spot. And if not, they have static 
> nodes.
>
> Meanwhile we have an acknowledged problem with hal - it's too complex, too 
> many things have been shoved into it that were never catered for in the 
> design, configuration is horrific - and the devs are having their usual 
> spirited debate about how best to approach a solution. This is perfectly 
> normal and perfectly healthy
>
>   

I hope someone wins the debate soon and gets this to work and be "user
friendly".  I'm about to make a fresh backup and try this again.  I have
upgraded my kernel to a really new version, 2.6.25.  Sorry, nvidia won't
compile with anything newer that I have tried. 

If it don't work this time, this could end up a with permanent -hal for
xorg-server.  I quite happy with the way my box works now anyway.  ;-) 
Just trying to keep up with the times I guess. 

< Dale crosses fingers and toes to >

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[pk]

Alan McKinnon wrote:

> As I see it, at the bottom of the stack you have a kernel and at the top a 
> user space app (the X server will do for an example). Plug in a USB device 
> that the app can use, and the kernel needs to make a node in /dev for it if 
> it's not already there. The kernel should not be interrogating the device for 
> all possible info - that is expensive - and doesn't need to. It only needs 
> enough info to know what driver, major and minor numbers to use. X OTOH, can 

I couldn't agree more. And this is what Udev, as a user space app, does.
The only thing it doesn't handle is communicating with other user space
apps; this is currently Hals job.

> the current model uses udev as the interface to the kernel's nodes and HAL as 
> the interface to exactly what hardware you have. Seems pretty sane for the 
> most usual use case. At some point in the stack you will need the OS-dependant 
> part, my guess is the best place is between hal and udev. Only Linux uses 

Well, as I understand it this is what it looks like today:

kernel <-> udev (or equivalent for non-linux kernel/OS) <-> hal <-> dbus
<-> user apps

To me that seems a bit redundant...

What I would like to see:

kernel <-> udev <-> user apps

Or at the most:

kernel <-> udev <-> daemon <-> user apps.

> udev, but all OSes use something in that spot. And if not, they have static 
> nodes.

Yes, but if the developers could agree on a common API for the udev
daemon and it's equivalents on other platforms (what does BSD use?)...
Or if they could agree on using "Hal v2" (rewritten from scratch with no
or a minimum of dependencies).

> Meanwhile we have an acknowledged problem with hal - it's too complex, too 
> many things have been shoved into it that were never catered for in the 
> design, configuration is horrific - and the devs are having their usual 
> spirited debate about how best to approach a solution. This is perfectly 
> normal and perfectly healthy

Yes, I guess so. Since I'm (currently) not in the position to help out
I'll have to live with whatever they come up with. But sometimes it's a
bit frustrating... Sorry for the ranting.

Best regards

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sunday 17 May 2009 03:33:22 pk wrote:
> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > As I see it, at the bottom of the stack you have a kernel and at the top
> > a user space app (the X server will do for an example). Plug in a USB
> > device that the app can use, and the kernel needs to make a node in /dev
> > for it if it's not already there. The kernel should not be interrogating
> > the device for all possible info - that is expensive - and doesn't need
> > to. It only needs enough info to know what driver, major and minor
> > numbers to use. X OTOH, can
>
> I couldn't agree more. And this is what Udev, as a user space app, does.
> The only thing it doesn't handle is communicating with other user space
> apps; this is currently Hals job.
>
> > the current model uses udev as the interface to the kernel's nodes and
> > HAL as the interface to exactly what hardware you have. Seems pretty sane
> > for the most usual use case. At some point in the stack you will need the
> > OS-dependant part, my guess is the best place is between hal and udev.
> > Only Linux uses
>
> Well, as I understand it this is what it looks like today:
>
> kernel <-> udev (or equivalent for non-linux kernel/OS) <-> hal <-> dbus
> <-> user apps
>
> To me that seems a bit redundant...

No, there's nothing redundant in that. udev talks kernel-speak, hal talks 
userspace-speak. Hal could be distro-agnostic, udev can't be (not in a sane 
environment) and dbus is simply a transport layer for messages. That's five 
different functions going on, and none of them logically belong with any other 
in the same layer.

> What I would like to see:
>
> kernel <-> udev <-> user apps

Then X must talk to udev directly. Two problems:

- only Linux has udev. Other OSes may not need, want or be willing to touch 
udev with a bargepole.
- X is multi-platform. Good luck getting Keith to agree to make it essentially 
Linux only :-)

> Or at the most:
>
> kernel <-> udev <-> daemon <-> user apps.

But you have that in the current setup. Hal (for better or worse) is the 
daemon. dbus is simply a message transport and can be omitted from the 
conceptual diagram

> > udev, but all OSes use something in that spot. And if not, they have
> > static nodes.
>
> Yes, but if the developers could agree on a common API for the udev
> daemon and it's equivalents on other platforms (what does BSD use?)...
> Or if they could agree on using "Hal v2" (rewritten from scratch with no
> or a minimum of dependencies).

I don't think that's feasible. Easiest would be the bottom layer of hal has 
OS-specific code to talk to udev (or it's equivalent in other OSes). Or 
perhaps a plugin/module type system. 

> > Meanwhile we have an acknowledged problem with hal - it's too complex,
> > too many things have been shoved into it that were never catered for in
> > the design, configuration is horrific - and the devs are having their
> > usual spirited debate about how best to approach a solution. This is
> > perfectly normal and perfectly healthy
>
> Yes, I guess so. Since I'm (currently) not in the position to help out
> I'll have to live with whatever they come up with. But sometimes it's a
> bit frustrating... Sorry for the ranting.

Hey, it could be worse.

You could be forced to use Windows...


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[pk]

Alan McKinnon wrote:

> - only Linux has udev. Other OSes may not need, want or be willing to touch 
> udev with a bargepole.

Yes, udev is linux only. Replace udev with whatever is available on
other platforms in that diagram. I just used linux as an example...
Sorry for not making it clear.

> But you have that in the current setup. Hal (for better or worse) is the 
> daemon. dbus is simply a message transport and can be omitted from the 
> conceptual diagram

Why is dbus needed? Why can't the user space apps talk to the user space
daemon directly? To me it's just another unnecessary layer, each layer
needs some kind of translation and thus resources. To me hal or whatever
may replace it should have a minimalist approach.

> You could be forced to use Windows...

Well, the way I see it, some people/projects are aiming to create a new
"Windows".

But I'm doing a "don Quijote" here...

Best regards

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sunday 17 May 2009 14:15:31 pk wrote:
> > But you have that in the current setup. Hal (for better or worse) is the
> > daemon. dbus is simply a message transport and can be omitted from the
> > conceptual diagram
>
> Why is dbus needed? Why can't the user space apps talk to the user space
> daemon directly? To me it's just another unnecessary layer, each layer
> needs some kind of translation and thus resources. To me hal or whatever
> may replace it should have a minimalist approach.

Because the methodology is not that user-space apps talk to hal, but that hal 
sends events to user space apps that are listening. And hal does not and 
should not know anything about those apps.

Polling vs events is a problem that was solved a very long time ago. For a 
dynamically changing system, events wins hands down almost always (one major 
exception - real time OSes). It's asynchronous, easier to program and both hal 
and the user space app talk to one and only one well defined API, and just 
forget all about timing issues.

From an engineering point of view, a message bus is an excellent idea.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[bn]

Dale ha scritto:

> I hope someone wins the debate soon and gets this to work and be "user
> friendly".  I'm about to make a fresh backup and try this again.  I have
> upgraded my kernel to a really new version, 2.6.25.  Sorry, nvidia won't
> compile with anything newer that I have tried. 

Uh? last nvidia-drivers needs 2.6.25 kernel?

m.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sunday 17 May 2009 19:10:05 bn wrote:
> Dale ha scritto:
> > I hope someone wins the debate soon and gets this to work and be "user
> > friendly".  I'm about to make a fresh backup and try this again.  I have
> > upgraded my kernel to a really new version, 2.6.25.  Sorry, nvidia won't
> > compile with anything newer that I have tried.
>
> Uh? last nvidia-drivers needs 2.6.25 kernel?

Dale has an old video card and needs one of the nvidia legacy driver releases. 
He finds that that release doesn't work with kernels after .25


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Mark Knecht]

On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday 17 May 2009 19:10:05 bn wrote:
>> Dale ha scritto:
>> > I hope someone wins the debate soon and gets this to work and be "user
>> > friendly".  I'm about to make a fresh backup and try this again.  I have
>> > upgraded my kernel to a really new version, 2.6.25.  Sorry, nvidia won't
>> > compile with anything newer that I have tried.
>>
>> Uh? last nvidia-drivers needs 2.6.25 kernel?
>
> Dale has an old video card and needs one of the nvidia legacy driver releases.
> He finds that that release doesn't work with kernels after .25

Humm....now I'm getting interested. I just did an emerge -DuN world to
my dad's machine in Southern California last night. He's got a 6 year
old machine with an old nvidia card that's no longer supported by the
newest drivers so the emerge messages tell me that I have to use an
older legacy version of the driver. Thing is I have him on
gentoo-sources-2.6.29-r4 using nvidia-drivers-96.43.09. Everything
seems to be working from here. I see the driver in memory. I Can run X
apps remotely.

gandalf ~ # uname -a
Linux gandalf 2.6.29-gentoo-r4 #3 PREEMPT Sun May 17 06:58:58 PDT 2009
i686 AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2500+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux
gandalf ~ #

gandalf ~ # emerge -pv nvidia-drivers

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild   R   ] x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers-96.43.09  USE="acpi gtk
-custom-cflags (-multilib)" 0 kB

Total: 1 package (1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 0 kB
gandalf ~ #

I guess my question is whether he's going to have issues. He's really
bad about reporting this stuff to me and I'm not there to see the
screen or use the system.

I don't see much  in /var/log/Xorg.0.log other than a complaint about
GLX and freetype. freetype I can fix. GLX I haven't looked into.

Any problems?

Thanks,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[bn]

Alan McKinnon ha scritto:
> On Sunday 17 May 2009 19:10:05 bn wrote:
>> Dale ha scritto:
>>> I hope someone wins the debate soon and gets this to work and be "user
>>> friendly".  I'm about to make a fresh backup and try this again.  I have
>>> upgraded my kernel to a really new version, 2.6.25.  Sorry, nvidia won't
>>> compile with anything newer that I have tried.
>> Uh? last nvidia-drivers needs 2.6.25 kernel?
> 
> Dale has an old video card and needs one of the nvidia legacy driver releases. 
> He finds that that release doesn't work with kernels after .25
> 

Uh, I see. I was worried, sorry.

m.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Dale]

bn wrote:
> Dale ha scritto:
>
>   
>> I hope someone wins the debate soon and gets this to work and be "user
>> friendly".  I'm about to make a fresh backup and try this again.  I have
>> upgraded my kernel to a really new version, 2.6.25.  Sorry, nvidia won't
>> compile with anything newer that I have tried. 
>>     
>
> Uh? last nvidia-drivers needs 2.6.25 kernel?
>
> m.
>
>
>   

Well, I have a old card so I have to use a old driver but I can't get
any of the 2.6.29 kernels to get along with nvidia at all.  It barely
does even try to compile.  It's not just me this time either.  Google
reports that others are having the same issue.

I did get my 2.6.25 kernel to work and nvidia to compile.  Now to try
out this xorg upgrade.  Got to update my backups first tho.  Not in no
real big hurry either.  I suspect it won't be any better than the last
time.  :/

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> On Sunday 17 May 2009 19:10:05 bn wrote:
>>     
>>> Dale ha scritto:
>>>       
>>>> I hope someone wins the debate soon and gets this to work and be "user
>>>> friendly".  I'm about to make a fresh backup and try this again.  I have
>>>> upgraded my kernel to a really new version, 2.6.25.  Sorry, nvidia won't
>>>> compile with anything newer that I have tried.
>>>>         
>>> Uh? last nvidia-drivers needs 2.6.25 kernel?
>>>       
>> Dale has an old video card and needs one of the nvidia legacy driver releases.
>> He finds that that release doesn't work with kernels after .25
>>     
>
> Humm....now I'm getting interested. I just did an emerge -DuN world to
> my dad's machine in Southern California last night. He's got a 6 year
> old machine with an old nvidia card that's no longer supported by the
> newest drivers so the emerge messages tell me that I have to use an
> older legacy version of the driver. Thing is I have him on
> gentoo-sources-2.6.29-r4 using nvidia-drivers-96.43.09. Everything
> seems to be working from here. I see the driver in memory. I Can run X
> apps remotely.
>
> gandalf ~ # uname -a
> Linux gandalf 2.6.29-gentoo-r4 #3 PREEMPT Sun May 17 06:58:58 PDT 2009
> i686 AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2500+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux
> gandalf ~ #
>
> gandalf ~ # emerge -pv nvidia-drivers
>
> These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
>
> Calculating dependencies... done!
> [ebuild   R   ] x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers-96.43.09  USE="acpi gtk
> -custom-cflags (-multilib)" 0 kB
>
> Total: 1 package (1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 0 kB
> gandalf ~ #
>
> I guess my question is whether he's going to have issues. He's really
> bad about reporting this stuff to me and I'm not there to see the
> screen or use the system.
>
> I don't see much  in /var/log/Xorg.0.log other than a complaint about
> GLX and freetype. freetype I can fix. GLX I haven't looked into.
>
> Any problems?
>
> Thanks,
> Mark
>
>
>   

Hey, we got a pretty similar rig here.  I have a FX5200, made by
Chaintech I think.  Info alert:

root@smoker / # uname -a
Linux smoker 2.6.25-gentoo-r9 #3 PREEMPT Sat May 16 12:06:51 CDT 2009
i686 AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2500+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux
root@smoker / # emerge -pv nvidia-drivers

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild   R   ] x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers-173.14.09  USE="acpi gtk
-custom-cflags (-multilib)" 0 kB

Total: 1 package (1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 0 kB
root@smoker / # lspci | grep VGA
02:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation NV34 [GeForce FX
5200] (rev a1)
root@smoker / #

My drivers appears to be a little newer but you may have a older card
than me.  If so, my sympathies.  ;-)   There is a newer version of the
173.* series but it wouldn't compile either.  I think this is the only
version that works.  That goodness it does a good job.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Mark Knecht]

On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:12 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Knecht wrote:
>> On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sunday 17 May 2009 19:10:05 bn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dale ha scritto:
>>>>
>>>>> I hope someone wins the debate soon and gets this to work and be "user
>>>>> friendly".  I'm about to make a fresh backup and try this again.  I have
>>>>> upgraded my kernel to a really new version, 2.6.25.  Sorry, nvidia won't
>>>>> compile with anything newer that I have tried.
>>>>>
>>>> Uh? last nvidia-drivers needs 2.6.25 kernel?
>>>>
>>> Dale has an old video card and needs one of the nvidia legacy driver releases.
>>> He finds that that release doesn't work with kernels after .25
>>>
>>
>> Humm....now I'm getting interested. I just did an emerge -DuN world to
>> my dad's machine in Southern California last night. He's got a 6 year
>> old machine with an old nvidia card that's no longer supported by the
>> newest drivers so the emerge messages tell me that I have to use an
>> older legacy version of the driver. Thing is I have him on
>> gentoo-sources-2.6.29-r4 using nvidia-drivers-96.43.09. Everything
>> seems to be working from here. I see the driver in memory. I Can run X
>> apps remotely.
>>
>> gandalf ~ # uname -a
>> Linux gandalf 2.6.29-gentoo-r4 #3 PREEMPT Sun May 17 06:58:58 PDT 2009
>> i686 AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2500+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux
>> gandalf ~ #
>>
>> gandalf ~ # emerge -pv nvidia-drivers
>>
>> These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
>>
>> Calculating dependencies... done!
>> [ebuild   R   ] x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers-96.43.09  USE="acpi gtk
>> -custom-cflags (-multilib)" 0 kB
>>
>> Total: 1 package (1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 0 kB
>> gandalf ~ #
>>
>> I guess my question is whether he's going to have issues. He's really
>> bad about reporting this stuff to me and I'm not there to see the
>> screen or use the system.
>>
>> I don't see much  in /var/log/Xorg.0.log other than a complaint about
>> GLX and freetype. freetype I can fix. GLX I haven't looked into.
>>
>> Any problems?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>
> Hey, we got a pretty similar rig here.  I have a FX5200, made by
> Chaintech I think.  Info alert:
>
> root@smoker / # uname -a
> Linux smoker 2.6.25-gentoo-r9 #3 PREEMPT Sat May 16 12:06:51 CDT 2009
> i686 AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2500+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux
> root@smoker / # emerge -pv nvidia-drivers
>
> These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
>
> Calculating dependencies... done!
> [ebuild   R   ] x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers-173.14.09  USE="acpi gtk
> -custom-cflags (-multilib)" 0 kB
>
> Total: 1 package (1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 0 kB
> root@smoker / # lspci | grep VGA
> 02:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation NV34 [GeForce FX
> 5200] (rev a1)
> root@smoker / #
>
> My drivers appears to be a little newer but you may have a older card
> than me.  If so, my sympathies.  ;-)   There is a newer version of the
> 173.* series but it wouldn't compile either.  I think this is the only
> version that works.  That goodness it does a good job.
>
> Dale

Dale,
   As far as I can tell I'm not having any problems. This machine was
using a 2.6.28 kernel up until yesterday when I updated to 2.6.29-r4.
The point I'm trying to make is that this old driver and all the
kernels I have used up to now have all worked.

   I noticed that the machine does have the older C compile 4.1.2 on
it and that's what most of the machine has been built with. I'm just
starting to switch over to 4.3.2 which is why it's selected. This
kernel and the version of nvidia-drivers I listed earlier compile on
both for me. The one I used for this kernel/driver combo was 4.3.2/

gandalf ~ # gcc-config -l
 [1] i686-pc-linux-gnu-4.1.2
 [2] i686-pc-linux-gnu-4.3.2 *
gandalf ~ #

   The VGA is older I think. 440 series. I suspect it's the one I put
in 5-6 years ago. I don't remember whether we ever updated it:

gandalf ~ # lspci | grep VGA
03:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation NV18 [GeForce4
MX 440 AGP 8x] (rev a2)
gandalf ~ #

   In my case attempting to install anything newer results in a big
emerge message telling me not to and suggesting this specific nvdia
driver.

gandalf ~ # lsmod
Module                  Size  Used by
usblp                  10140  0
uhci_hcd               18980  0
sbp2                   19184  1
usbhid                 21468  2
nvidia               4699324  0
i2c_nforce2             5828  0
ohci_hcd               20080  0
snd_intel8x0           25784  0
nvidia_agp              5704  1
snd_ac97_codec         90232  1 snd_intel8x0
ac97_bus                1316  1 snd_ac97_codec
agpgart                25748  2 nvidia,nvidia_agp
i2c_core               17564  2 nvidia,i2c_nforce2
ohci1394               25664  1
ehci_hcd               29380  0
ieee1394               66064  2 sbp2,ohci1394
gandalf ~ #


gandalf ~ # modinfo nvidia
filename:       /lib/modules/2.6.29-gentoo-r4/video/nvidia.ko
license:        NVIDIA
alias:          char-major-195-*
alias:          pci:v000010DEd*sv*sd*bc03sc02i00*
alias:          pci:v000010DEd*sv*sd*bc03sc00i00*
depends:        agpgart,i2c-core
vermagic:       2.6.29-gentoo-r4 preempt mod_unload K7
parm:           NVreg_VideoMemoryTypeOverride:int
parm:           NVreg_EnableVia4x:int
parm:           NVreg_EnableALiAGP:int
parm:           NVreg_ReqAGPRate:int
parm:           NVreg_NvAGP:int
parm:           NVreg_EnableAGPSBA:int
parm:           NVreg_EnableAGPFW:int
parm:           NVreg_SoftEDIDs:int
parm:           NVreg_Mobile:int
parm:           NVreg_ModifyDeviceFiles:int
parm:           NVreg_DeviceFileUID:int
parm:           NVreg_DeviceFileGID:int
parm:           NVreg_DeviceFileMode:int
parm:           NVreg_ResmanDebugLevel:int
parm:           NVreg_FlatPanelMode:int
parm:           NVreg_DevicesConnected:int
parm:           NVreg_RmLogonRC:int
parm:           NVreg_RemapLimit:int
parm:           NVreg_UpdateMemoryTypes:int
parm:           NVreg_DetectPrimaryVga:int
parm:           NVreg_RegistryDwords:charp
parm:           NVreg_VbiosFromROM:int
parm:           NVreg_EnableBrightnessControl:int
parm:           NVreg_PanelPWMFrequency:int
parm:           NVreg_PanelBrightnessLimits:int
parm:           NVreg_RMEdgeIntrCheck:int
parm:           NVreg_UsePageAttributeTable:int
parm:           NVreg_MapRegistersEarly:int
gandalf ~ #

- Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
>
> Dale,
>    As far as I can tell I'm not having any problems. This machine was
> using a 2.6.28 kernel up until yesterday when I updated to 2.6.29-r4.
> The point I'm trying to make is that this old driver and all the
> kernels I have used up to now have all worked.
>
>    I noticed that the machine does have the older C compile 4.1.2 on
> it and that's what most of the machine has been built with. I'm just
> starting to switch over to 4.3.2 which is why it's selected. This
> kernel and the version of nvidia-drivers I listed earlier compile on
> both for me. The one I used for this kernel/driver combo was 4.3.2/
>
> gandalf ~ # gcc-config -l
>  [1] i686-pc-linux-gnu-4.1.2
>  [2] i686-pc-linux-gnu-4.3.2 *
> gandalf ~ #
>
>    The VGA is older I think. 440 series. I suspect it's the one I put
> in 5-6 years ago. I don't remember whether we ever updated it:
>
> gandalf ~ # lspci | grep VGA
> 03:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation NV18 [GeForce4
> MX 440 AGP 8x] (rev a2)
> gandalf ~ #
>
>    In my case attempting to install anything newer results in a big
> emerge message telling me not to and suggesting this specific nvdia
> driver.
>
> gandalf ~ # lsmod
> Module                  Size  Used by
> usblp                  10140  0
> uhci_hcd               18980  0
> sbp2                   19184  1
> usbhid                 21468  2
> nvidia               4699324  0
> i2c_nforce2             5828  0
> ohci_hcd               20080  0
> snd_intel8x0           25784  0
> nvidia_agp              5704  1
> snd_ac97_codec         90232  1 snd_intel8x0
> ac97_bus                1316  1 snd_ac97_codec
> agpgart                25748  2 nvidia,nvidia_agp
> i2c_core               17564  2 nvidia,i2c_nforce2
> ohci1394               25664  1
> ehci_hcd               29380  0
> ieee1394               66064  2 sbp2,ohci1394
> gandalf ~ #
>
>
> gandalf ~ # modinfo nvidia
> filename:       /lib/modules/2.6.29-gentoo-r4/video/nvidia.ko
> license:        NVIDIA
> alias:          char-major-195-*
> alias:          pci:v000010DEd*sv*sd*bc03sc02i00*
> alias:          pci:v000010DEd*sv*sd*bc03sc00i00*
> depends:        agpgart,i2c-core
> vermagic:       2.6.29-gentoo-r4 preempt mod_unload K7
> parm:           NVreg_VideoMemoryTypeOverride:int
> parm:           NVreg_EnableVia4x:int
> parm:           NVreg_EnableALiAGP:int
> parm:           NVreg_ReqAGPRate:int
> parm:           NVreg_NvAGP:int
> parm:           NVreg_EnableAGPSBA:int
> parm:           NVreg_EnableAGPFW:int
> parm:           NVreg_SoftEDIDs:int
> parm:           NVreg_Mobile:int
> parm:           NVreg_ModifyDeviceFiles:int
> parm:           NVreg_DeviceFileUID:int
> parm:           NVreg_DeviceFileGID:int
> parm:           NVreg_DeviceFileMode:int
> parm:           NVreg_ResmanDebugLevel:int
> parm:           NVreg_FlatPanelMode:int
> parm:           NVreg_DevicesConnected:int
> parm:           NVreg_RmLogonRC:int
> parm:           NVreg_RemapLimit:int
> parm:           NVreg_UpdateMemoryTypes:int
> parm:           NVreg_DetectPrimaryVga:int
> parm:           NVreg_RegistryDwords:charp
> parm:           NVreg_VbiosFromROM:int
> parm:           NVreg_EnableBrightnessControl:int
> parm:           NVreg_PanelPWMFrequency:int
> parm:           NVreg_PanelBrightnessLimits:int
> parm:           NVreg_RMEdgeIntrCheck:int
> parm:           NVreg_UsePageAttributeTable:int
> parm:           NVreg_MapRegistersEarly:int
> gandalf ~ #
>
> - Mark
>
>
>   

I suspect that this is a difference between our drivers.  Yours will
build with the newer kernels where mine doesn't for some reason.  I did
google the error and it is reported by a lot of others as well.  I can't
recall the exact error at the moment but it couldn't find something to
do with the kernel.  What I read was that something moved that nvidia
looks for during the install. 

Now that I have upgraded a bit, I may give some other versions a try
again.  I'm going to try the ones I already have downloaded tho.  It
takes hours to download anything on dial-up. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Sonntag 17 Mai 2009, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Sunday 17 May 2009 03:33:22 pk wrote:
> > Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > As I see it, at the bottom of the stack you have a kernel and at the
> > > top a user space app (the X server will do for an example). Plug in a
> > > USB device that the app can use, and the kernel needs to make a node in
> > > /dev for it if it's not already there. The kernel should not be
> > > interrogating the device for all possible info - that is expensive -
> > > and doesn't need to. It only needs enough info to know what driver,
> > > major and minor numbers to use. X OTOH, can
> >
> > I couldn't agree more. And this is what Udev, as a user space app, does.
> > The only thing it doesn't handle is communicating with other user space
> > apps; this is currently Hals job.
> >
> > > the current model uses udev as the interface to the kernel's nodes and
> > > HAL as the interface to exactly what hardware you have. Seems pretty
> > > sane for the most usual use case. At some point in the stack you will
> > > need the OS-dependant part, my guess is the best place is between hal
> > > and udev. Only Linux uses
> >
> > Well, as I understand it this is what it looks like today:
> >
> > kernel <-> udev (or equivalent for non-linux kernel/OS) <-> hal <-> dbus
> > <-> user apps
> >
> > To me that seems a bit redundant...
>
> No, there's nothing redundant in that. udev talks kernel-speak, hal talks
> userspace-speak. Hal could be distro-agnostic, udev can't be (not in a sane
> environment) and dbus is simply a transport layer for messages. That's five
> different functions going on, and none of them logically belong with any
> other in the same layer.
>
> > What I would like to see:
> >
> > kernel <-> udev <-> user apps
>
> Then X must talk to udev directly. Two problems:
>
> - only Linux has udev. Other OSes may not need, want or be willing to touch
> udev with a bargepole.
> - X is multi-platform. Good luck getting Keith to agree to make it
> essentially Linux only :-)

which is not a problem at all. udev only creates device nodes. There is no 
need to 'talk udev' or do special crap for udev.

>
> > Yes, but if the developers could agree on a common API for the udev
> > daemon and it's equivalents on other platforms (what does BSD use?)...

and there already is one. It is called '/dev'

was [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5 now old nvidia drivers

[Adam Carter]

For you guys with older hardware/drivers, have you tried turning on CONFIG_UNUSED_SYMBOLS and recompiling the kernel to see if its helps? (Kernel hacking -> Enable unused/obsolete exported symbols).

I use it to support vmware server 1.x and ati flgrx drivers (with 2.6.26 or later kernels). IIRC my home machine is an IGP 440 MX running 2.6.28 (not sure of driver version off the top of my head, maybe masked to ?97?) but its working fine.

Re: was [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5 now old nvidia drivers

[Dale]

Adam Carter wrote:
> For you guys with older hardware/drivers, have you tried turning on CONFIG_UNUSED_SYMBOLS and recompiling the kernel to see if its helps? (Kernel hacking -> Enable unused/obsolete exported symbols).
>
> I use it to support vmware server 1.x and ati flgrx drivers (with 2.6.26 or later kernels). IIRC my home machine is an IGP 440 MX running 2.6.28 (not sure of driver version off the top of my head, maybe masked to ?97?) but its working fine.
>
>
>   

That is a good find.  I can't say that it is the problem but it was not
enabled on my kernel but it is now.  I'll try to test this later on as
well.  This sounds like what the error was reporting it couldn't find. 
This could work.

Thanks. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

RE: was [gentoo-user] Re: New xorg.conf with x11-base/xorg-server-1.5.3-r5 now old nvidia drivers

[Adam Carter]

> > For you guys with older hardware/drivers, have you tried
> turning on CONFIG_UNUSED_SYMBOLS and recompiling the kernel
> to see if its helps? (Kernel hacking -> Enable
> unused/obsolete exported symbols).
<snip>
> That is a good find.  I can't say that it is the problem but
> it was not
> enabled on my kernel but it is now.  I'll try to test this later on as
> well.  This sounds like what the error was reporting it
> couldn't find. This could work.

If it does work it would be worth a bug report to get the nvidia ebuild(s) updated similar to the ati ones;

# grep -i symbol ati-drivers-8.593.ebuild
        if kernel_is ge 2 6 26 && ! linux_chkconfig_present UNUSED_SYMBOLS; then
            ewarn "You have to Enable unused/obsolete exported symbols in Kernel hacking section of kernel config for fglrx to load"