* Re: [gentoo-user] /var/tmp/notmpfs - does not exist
2015-09-05 14:08 ` [gentoo-user] " thelma
@ 2015-09-05 14:16 ` Alan McKinnon
2015-09-05 15:58 ` thelma
2015-09-05 14:30 ` Dale
2015-09-05 18:13 ` Neil Bothwick
2 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Alan McKinnon @ 2015-09-05 14:16 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 05/09/2015 16:08, thelma@sys-concept.com wrote:
> On 09/04/2015 11:52 PM, Dale wrote:
>> thelma@sys-concept.com wrote:
>>> When I try to run emerge on my system I get:
>>>
>>> ...
>>> * Your boot partition was not mounted at /boot, so it will be automounted for you.
>>> * Files will be installed there for grub to function correctly.
>>>>>> Running pre-merge checks for dev-db/mysql-5.6.26
>>>>>> Running pre-merge checks for net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.4.9-r200
>>>>>> Running pre-merge checks for mail-client/thunderbird-38.2.0
>>> The directory specified in your PORTAGE_TMPDIR variable, '/var/tmp/notmpfs',
>>> does not exist. Please create this directory or correct your PORTAGE_TMPDIR setting.
>>>
>>> my fstab:
>>> ...
>>> proc /proc proc defaults 0 0
>>> shm /dev/shm tmpfs defaults,nodev,nosuid,mode=1777 0 0
>>> tmpfs /var/tmp/portage tmpfs defaults 0 0
>>>
>>>
>>> ll /var/tmp/
>>> total 0
>>> drwxrwxrwt 4 portage portage 80 Sep 4 23:04 portage
>>>
>>> Do I need to create dir: /var/tmp/notmpfs ?
>>> My other systems did not show any such message.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Are you trying to have portage's work directory on tmpfs? If so, I have
>> this in fstab:
>>
>> tmpfs /var/tmp/portage tmpfs noatime 0 0
>>
>> I don't have anything in fstab for PORTAGE_TMPDIR tho. According to
>> this, you do need to create the directory if you are making exceptions.
>>
>> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Portage_TMPDIR_on_tmpfs#Per-Package_Choices_at_Compile_Time
>>
>> |root #||mkdir /var/tmp/notmpfs |
>> |root #||chown portage:portage /var/tmp/notmpfs |
>> |root #||chmod 775 /var/tmp/notmpfs
>>
>> Hope that helps.
>>
>> Dale
>
> I had this configuration already set:
> /etc/portage/env/notmpfs.conf
> PORTAGE_TMPDIR="/var/tmp/notmpfs"
>
> /etc/portage/package.env
> mail-client/thunderbird notmpfs.conf
> www-client/firefox notmpfs.conf
>
> What was missing was only directory:
> /var/tmp/notmpfs
>
> I'll remove "tmpfs" from fstab
I don't understand why you have that set of configs at all, it is
needlessly complicated. What is all that stuff about "notmpfs"?
You do that one of two ways:
1. If you don't have enough spare RAM or need to keep your build dir on
a spinning disk, then do nothing. Add nothing to fstab, add nothing to
env configs for portage, do not mount anything at /var/tmp/portage. The
build dir will be on the same volume as /var/tmp
2. If you do have the spare RAM, by all means use a tmpfs - it speeds
build times up amazingly. Put a tmpfs entry in fstab and nothing else.
Voila, instant speed up. Libreoffice build time is halved.
2a. If you have spare RAM but not gobs and gobs of it (eg 8G tmpfs is
pushing it), then stick with #2, but add specific env overrides for huge
packages like libreoffice and firefox to use some other temp dir on disk
for building and not /var/tmp/portage
--
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] /var/tmp/notmpfs - does not exist
2015-09-05 14:16 ` Alan McKinnon
@ 2015-09-05 15:58 ` thelma
0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: thelma @ 2015-09-05 15:58 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 09/05/2015 08:16 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 05/09/2015 16:08, thelma@sys-concept.com wrote:
>> On 09/04/2015 11:52 PM, Dale wrote:
>>> thelma@sys-concept.com wrote:
>>>> When I try to run emerge on my system I get:
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>> * Your boot partition was not mounted at /boot, so it will be automounted for you.
>>>> * Files will be installed there for grub to function correctly.
>>>>>>> Running pre-merge checks for dev-db/mysql-5.6.26
>>>>>>> Running pre-merge checks for net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.4.9-r200
>>>>>>> Running pre-merge checks for mail-client/thunderbird-38.2.0
>>>> The directory specified in your PORTAGE_TMPDIR variable, '/var/tmp/notmpfs',
>>>> does not exist. Please create this directory or correct your PORTAGE_TMPDIR setting.
>>>>
>>>> my fstab:
>>>> ...
>>>> proc /proc proc defaults 0 0
>>>> shm /dev/shm tmpfs defaults,nodev,nosuid,mode=1777 0 0
>>>> tmpfs /var/tmp/portage tmpfs defaults 0 0
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ll /var/tmp/
>>>> total 0
>>>> drwxrwxrwt 4 portage portage 80 Sep 4 23:04 portage
>>>>
>>>> Do I need to create dir: /var/tmp/notmpfs ?
>>>> My other systems did not show any such message.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Are you trying to have portage's work directory on tmpfs? If so, I have
>>> this in fstab:
>>>
>>> tmpfs /var/tmp/portage tmpfs noatime 0 0
>>>
>>> I don't have anything in fstab for PORTAGE_TMPDIR tho. According to
>>> this, you do need to create the directory if you are making exceptions.
>>>
>>> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Portage_TMPDIR_on_tmpfs#Per-Package_Choices_at_Compile_Time
>>>
>>> |root #||mkdir /var/tmp/notmpfs |
>>> |root #||chown portage:portage /var/tmp/notmpfs |
>>> |root #||chmod 775 /var/tmp/notmpfs
>>>
>>> Hope that helps.
>>>
>>> Dale
>>
>> I had this configuration already set:
>> /etc/portage/env/notmpfs.conf
>> PORTAGE_TMPDIR="/var/tmp/notmpfs"
>>
>> /etc/portage/package.env
>> mail-client/thunderbird notmpfs.conf
>> www-client/firefox notmpfs.conf
>>
>> What was missing was only directory:
>> /var/tmp/notmpfs
>>
>> I'll remove "tmpfs" from fstab
>
>
>
> I don't understand why you have that set of configs at all, it is
> needlessly complicated. What is all that stuff about "notmpfs"?
>
> You do that one of two ways:
>
> 1. If you don't have enough spare RAM or need to keep your build dir on
> a spinning disk, then do nothing. Add nothing to fstab, add nothing to
> env configs for portage, do not mount anything at /var/tmp/portage. The
> build dir will be on the same volume as /var/tmp
>
> 2. If you do have the spare RAM, by all means use a tmpfs - it speeds
> build times up amazingly. Put a tmpfs entry in fstab and nothing else.
> Voila, instant speed up. Libreoffice build time is halved.
>
> 2a. If you have spare RAM but not gobs and gobs of it (eg 8G tmpfs is
> pushing it), then stick with #2, but add specific env overrides for huge
> packages like libreoffice and firefox to use some other temp dir on disk
> for building and not /var/tmp/portage
I have 8Gb RAM and this setup I had was to compile larger ebuilds like: firefox and thunderbird
tmpfs /var/tmp/portage tmpfs defaults 0 0
The above in fstab creates
tmpfs 3.9G 39M 3.9G 1% /var/tmp/portage
When I removed my setup with
/etc/portage/package.env
/etc/portage/env/notmpfs.conf
Firefox complains it can not compile as there is not enough disk space:
* Checking for at least 4 GiB disk space at "/var/tmp/portage/www-client/firefox-38.2.0/temp" ...
What is my best option? Go back to previous setup with package.env notmpfs.conf
or increase tmpfs to 5Gb eg:
tmpfs /var/tmp/portage tmpfs rw,size=5G 0 0
Thelma
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] /var/tmp/notmpfs - does not exist
2015-09-05 14:08 ` [gentoo-user] " thelma
2015-09-05 14:16 ` Alan McKinnon
@ 2015-09-05 14:30 ` Dale
2015-09-05 16:03 ` thelma
2015-09-05 18:13 ` Neil Bothwick
2 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Dale @ 2015-09-05 14:30 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
thelma@sys-concept.com wrote:
> On 09/04/2015 11:52 PM, Dale wrote:
>> thelma@sys-concept.com wrote:
>>> When I try to run emerge on my system I get:
>>>
>>> ...
>>> * Your boot partition was not mounted at /boot, so it will be automounted for you.
>>> * Files will be installed there for grub to function correctly.
>>>>>> Running pre-merge checks for dev-db/mysql-5.6.26
>>>>>> Running pre-merge checks for net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.4.9-r200
>>>>>> Running pre-merge checks for mail-client/thunderbird-38.2.0
>>> The directory specified in your PORTAGE_TMPDIR variable, '/var/tmp/notmpfs',
>>> does not exist. Please create this directory or correct your PORTAGE_TMPDIR setting.
>>>
>>> my fstab:
>>> ...
>>> proc /proc proc defaults 0 0
>>> shm /dev/shm tmpfs defaults,nodev,nosuid,mode=1777 0 0
>>> tmpfs /var/tmp/portage tmpfs defaults 0 0
>>>
>>>
>>> ll /var/tmp/
>>> total 0
>>> drwxrwxrwt 4 portage portage 80 Sep 4 23:04 portage
>>>
>>> Do I need to create dir: /var/tmp/notmpfs ?
>>> My other systems did not show any such message.
>>>
>>
>> Are you trying to have portage's work directory on tmpfs? If so, I have
>> this in fstab:
>>
>> tmpfs /var/tmp/portage tmpfs noatime 0 0
>>
>> I don't have anything in fstab for PORTAGE_TMPDIR tho. According to
>> this, you do need to create the directory if you are making exceptions.
>>
>> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Portage_TMPDIR_on_tmpfs#Per-Package_Choices_at_Compile_Time
>>
>> |root #||mkdir /var/tmp/notmpfs |
>> |root #||chown portage:portage /var/tmp/notmpfs |
>> |root #||chmod 775 /var/tmp/notmpfs
>>
>> Hope that helps.
>>
>> Dale
> I had this configuration already set:
> /etc/portage/env/notmpfs.conf
> PORTAGE_TMPDIR="/var/tmp/notmpfs"
>
> /etc/portage/package.env
> mail-client/thunderbird notmpfs.conf
> www-client/firefox notmpfs.conf
>
> What was missing was only directory:
> /var/tmp/notmpfs
>
> I'll remove "tmpfs" from fstab
>
>
> Thelma.
>
>
Well, you can leave that in fstab for when you can use it. This is my
understanding. Putting portage's work directory on tmpfs speeds up the
compile because it is done in memory instead of a hard drive. Thing is,
there may be times when some packages don't have enough space to
compile, you run out of tmpfs basically. One example, libreoffice which
uses a lot. I've also found that Firefox also uses a lot of space too.
Of course, I have enough memory at the moment for both to compile. You
may not tho.
When you don't have enough for say Libreoffice to compile on tmpfs, you
then set a exception for that package. That is where notmpfs comes in.
That allows you to use tmpfs for all the other packages but puts it back
on spinning rust for that package, and any other package you set it for
such as Firefox.
So, if you have the memory even for large packages like Libreoffice,
just remove the notmpfs part and leave fstab like it was. Basically,
ignore that part of the wiki since you don't need to set that. If you
have say 6GBs of ram, you would need that line in fstab AND the part
about notmpfs. You would not be able to compile Libreoffice with that
small amount of ram and even Firefox may not either.
Does that clear up the muddy waters any or am I making it worse? Maybe
the better question would be, how much memory does your rig have on it?
Then folks can advise on where to go based on that. ;-)
Dale
:-) :-)
P. S. I type to dang slow. I see Alan has posted too. ROFL
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] /var/tmp/notmpfs - does not exist
2015-09-05 14:30 ` Dale
@ 2015-09-05 16:03 ` thelma
2015-09-05 16:59 ` Dale
0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: thelma @ 2015-09-05 16:03 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 09/05/2015 08:30 AM, Dale wrote:
[snip]
>
>
> Well, you can leave that in fstab for when you can use it. This is my
> understanding. Putting portage's work directory on tmpfs speeds up the
> compile because it is done in memory instead of a hard drive. Thing is,
> there may be times when some packages don't have enough space to
> compile, you run out of tmpfs basically. One example, libreoffice which
> uses a lot. I've also found that Firefox also uses a lot of space too.
> Of course, I have enough memory at the moment for both to compile. You
> may not tho.
>
> When you don't have enough for say Libreoffice to compile on tmpfs, you
> then set a exception for that package. That is where notmpfs comes in.
> That allows you to use tmpfs for all the other packages but puts it back
> on spinning rust for that package, and any other package you set it for
> such as Firefox.
>
> So, if you have the memory even for large packages like Libreoffice,
> just remove the notmpfs part and leave fstab like it was. Basically,
> ignore that part of the wiki since you don't need to set that. If you
> have say 6GBs of ram, you would need that line in fstab AND the part
> about notmpfs. You would not be able to compile Libreoffice with that
> small amount of ram and even Firefox may not either.
>
> Does that clear up the muddy waters any or am I making it worse? Maybe
> the better question would be, how much memory does your rig have on it?
> Then folks can advise on where to go based on that. ;-)
>
> Dale
Thanks Dale for explanation.
I have 8GB RAM and with fstab:
tmpfs /var/tmp/portage tmpfs defaults 0 0
it creates 3.9Gb ram disk but that is not enough for firefox I think my default setup was OK with:
/etc/portage/package.env
/etc/portage/env/notmpfs.conf
Thelma
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] /var/tmp/notmpfs - does not exist
2015-09-05 16:03 ` thelma
@ 2015-09-05 16:59 ` Dale
2015-09-05 17:06 ` Alan McKinnon
0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Dale @ 2015-09-05 16:59 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
thelma@sys-concept.com wrote:
> On 09/05/2015 08:30 AM, Dale wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>> Well, you can leave that in fstab for when you can use it. This is my
>> understanding. Putting portage's work directory on tmpfs speeds up the
>> compile because it is done in memory instead of a hard drive. Thing is,
>> there may be times when some packages don't have enough space to
>> compile, you run out of tmpfs basically. One example, libreoffice which
>> uses a lot. I've also found that Firefox also uses a lot of space too.
>> Of course, I have enough memory at the moment for both to compile. You
>> may not tho.
>>
>> When you don't have enough for say Libreoffice to compile on tmpfs, you
>> then set a exception for that package. That is where notmpfs comes in.
>> That allows you to use tmpfs for all the other packages but puts it back
>> on spinning rust for that package, and any other package you set it for
>> such as Firefox.
>>
>> So, if you have the memory even for large packages like Libreoffice,
>> just remove the notmpfs part and leave fstab like it was. Basically,
>> ignore that part of the wiki since you don't need to set that. If you
>> have say 6GBs of ram, you would need that line in fstab AND the part
>> about notmpfs. You would not be able to compile Libreoffice with that
>> small amount of ram and even Firefox may not either.
>>
>> Does that clear up the muddy waters any or am I making it worse? Maybe
>> the better question would be, how much memory does your rig have on it?
>> Then folks can advise on where to go based on that. ;-)
>>
>> Dale
> Thanks Dale for explanation.
> I have 8GB RAM and with fstab:
> tmpfs /var/tmp/portage tmpfs defaults 0 0
>
> it creates 3.9Gb ram disk but that is not enough for firefox I think my default setup was OK with:
> /etc/portage/package.env
> /etc/portage/env/notmpfs.conf
>
> Thelma
>
>
What I would do, use tmpfs for everything you can and set up a exception
for Firefox and anything else that requires a lot of space to compile.
Basically, follow this part of the wiki for those exceptions like Firefox.
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Portage_TMPDIR_on_tmpfs#Per-Package_Choices_at_Compile_Time
That should give you the best of both worlds. You can use tmpfs to get
some speed up on smaller packages and use spinning rust for the larger
packages. Also, you don't have to do all this by hand when you get
ready to upgrade those since you can tell portage what exceptions you
need and it will do it for you. I seem to recall when this first
started a few years ago, a person would have to notice that something
big was going to be updated and disable tmpfs by hand so to speak and
then re-enable it afterwards. Having a way to tell portage what to do
is much easier and less prone to forgetfulness.
You may want to see if Alan agrees with this advice. I've had 16GBs on
this rig ever since it was built. I love when stuff is on sale. lol
Dale
:-) :-)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] /var/tmp/notmpfs - does not exist
2015-09-05 16:59 ` Dale
@ 2015-09-05 17:06 ` Alan McKinnon
0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Alan McKinnon @ 2015-09-05 17:06 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 05/09/2015 18:59, Dale wrote:
> thelma@sys-concept.com wrote:
>> On 09/05/2015 08:30 AM, Dale wrote:
>> [snip]
>>>
>>> Well, you can leave that in fstab for when you can use it. This is my
>>> understanding. Putting portage's work directory on tmpfs speeds up the
>>> compile because it is done in memory instead of a hard drive. Thing is,
>>> there may be times when some packages don't have enough space to
>>> compile, you run out of tmpfs basically. One example, libreoffice which
>>> uses a lot. I've also found that Firefox also uses a lot of space too.
>>> Of course, I have enough memory at the moment for both to compile. You
>>> may not tho.
>>>
>>> When you don't have enough for say Libreoffice to compile on tmpfs, you
>>> then set a exception for that package. That is where notmpfs comes in.
>>> That allows you to use tmpfs for all the other packages but puts it back
>>> on spinning rust for that package, and any other package you set it for
>>> such as Firefox.
>>>
>>> So, if you have the memory even for large packages like Libreoffice,
>>> just remove the notmpfs part and leave fstab like it was. Basically,
>>> ignore that part of the wiki since you don't need to set that. If you
>>> have say 6GBs of ram, you would need that line in fstab AND the part
>>> about notmpfs. You would not be able to compile Libreoffice with that
>>> small amount of ram and even Firefox may not either.
>>>
>>> Does that clear up the muddy waters any or am I making it worse? Maybe
>>> the better question would be, how much memory does your rig have on it?
>>> Then folks can advise on where to go based on that. ;-)
>>>
>>> Dale
>> Thanks Dale for explanation.
>> I have 8GB RAM and with fstab:
>> tmpfs /var/tmp/portage tmpfs defaults 0 0
>>
>> it creates 3.9Gb ram disk but that is not enough for firefox I think my default setup was OK with:
>> /etc/portage/package.env
>> /etc/portage/env/notmpfs.conf
>>
>> Thelma
>>
>>
>
>
> What I would do, use tmpfs for everything you can and set up a exception
> for Firefox and anything else that requires a lot of space to compile.
> Basically, follow this part of the wiki for those exceptions like Firefox.
>
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Portage_TMPDIR_on_tmpfs#Per-Package_Choices_at_Compile_Time
>
>
> That should give you the best of both worlds. You can use tmpfs to get
> some speed up on smaller packages and use spinning rust for the larger
> packages. Also, you don't have to do all this by hand when you get
> ready to upgrade those since you can tell portage what exceptions you
> need and it will do it for you. I seem to recall when this first
> started a few years ago, a person would have to notice that something
> big was going to be updated and disable tmpfs by hand so to speak and
> then re-enable it afterwards. Having a way to tell portage what to do
> is much easier and less prone to forgetfulness.
>
> You may want to see if Alan agrees with this advice. I've had 16GBs on
> this rig ever since it was built. I love when stuff is on sale. lol
Yes, that's how it works best.
If you don't specify a size for a tmpfs, it defaults to half available
RAM. That doesn't mean it takes up that much RAM (it's not a ramdisk),
it uses up to that maximum if it is available. It's backed by swap and
the kernel does it's usual memory management magic to keep everything
ticking along.
There's probably less than 10 packages in the tree that need more that
4G build space. Libreoffice and firefox are the common two. And like you
say these days portage tells you if there isn't enough space for a
package, so you make an exception for that one.
Yes, I remember those bad old days.
I also remember the bad old days when we needed emerge -e every six
months to dig portage out of the holes it was making for itself :-)
--
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] /var/tmp/notmpfs - does not exist
2015-09-05 14:08 ` [gentoo-user] " thelma
2015-09-05 14:16 ` Alan McKinnon
2015-09-05 14:30 ` Dale
@ 2015-09-05 18:13 ` Neil Bothwick
2 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Neil Bothwick @ 2015-09-05 18:13 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2321 bytes --]
On 5 September 2015 15:08:20 BST, thelma@sys-concept.com wrote:
> On 09/04/2015 11:52 PM, Dale wrote:
> > thelma@sys-concept.com wrote:
> >> When I try to run emerge on my system I get:
> >>
> >> ...
> >> * Your boot partition was not mounted at /boot, so it will be
> automounted for you.
> >> * Files will be installed there for grub to function correctly.
> >>>>> Running pre-merge checks for dev-db/mysql-5.6.26
> >>>>> Running pre-merge checks for net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.4.9-r200
> >>>>> Running pre-merge checks for mail-client/thunderbird-38.2.0
> >> The directory specified in your PORTAGE_TMPDIR variable,
> '/var/tmp/notmpfs',
> >> does not exist. Please create this directory or correct your
> PORTAGE_TMPDIR setting.
> >>
> >> my fstab:
> >> ...
> >> proc /proc proc defaults 0 0
> >> shm /dev/shm tmpfs defaults,nodev,nosuid,mode=1777 0 0
> >> tmpfs /var/tmp/portage tmpfs defaults 0 0
> >>
> >>
> >> ll /var/tmp/
> >> total 0
> >> drwxrwxrwt 4 portage portage 80 Sep 4 23:04 portage
> >>
> >> Do I need to create dir: /var/tmp/notmpfs ?
> >> My other systems did not show any such message.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Are you trying to have portage's work directory on tmpfs? If so, I
> have
> > this in fstab:
> >
> > tmpfs /var/tmp/portage tmpfs noatime 0
> 0
> >
> > I don't have anything in fstab for PORTAGE_TMPDIR tho. According to
> > this, you do need to create the directory if you are making
> exceptions.
> >
> >
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Portage_TMPDIR_on_tmpfs#Per-Package_Choices_at_Compile_Time
> >
> > |root #||mkdir /var/tmp/notmpfs |
> > |root #||chown portage:portage /var/tmp/notmpfs |
> > |root #||chmod 775 /var/tmp/notmpfs
> >
> > Hope that helps.
> >
> > Dale
>
> I had this configuration already set:
> /etc/portage/env/notmpfs.conf
> PORTAGE_TMPDIR="/var/tmp/notmpfs"
>
> /etc/portage/package.env
> mail-client/thunderbird notmpfs.conf
> www-client/firefox notmpfs.conf
>
> What was missing was only directory:
> /var/tmp/notmpfs
>
> I'll remove "tmpfs" from fstab
>
>
> Thelma.
I see what you're trying to do, have large packages built without using tmpfs, but you need to point PORTAGE_TMPDIR to an existing directory on your hard disk.
--
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread