[gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[walt]

I avoided yesterday's downgrade from ncurses-6.0 to ncurses-5.9-r4
because it was obviously(?) a mistake.

This morning I just upgraded(?) ncurses-6.0 to ncurses-6.0-r1 and
immediately after doing that, portage wants to downgrade(?) from
6.0-r1 back to 6.0.

This comedy of errors would be funny if it weren't emblematic of the
larger and very scary problem we all face in real life:  computers now
dominate every aspect of everything we do and what is expected of us by
our employers, friends, family, and our government.  (I refer to the
government here in the US.  Your government may vary.)

Note that /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses/Changelog was last updated on
April 6, several months ago.

Rhetorical question:  what is the purpose of a Changelog?  Or any log,
anywhere, like the captain's log on an oil tanker, for example, or an
airliner, or in the IT department of the bank where your life savings
are stored.  Who last rebooted that server, and why?

Who last updated ncurses, and why?  Yes, I looked at the ebuild, which
cites a bug report, which may or may not serve as the log I'm asking
for, but doesn't this all seem too complicated to work smoothly for
years without frequent fsck-ups?

Now I have to go to work and face exactly the same fsck-ups there that
I face when I update my gentoo machines, and that puts me in a bad mood.

Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Marc Joliet]

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Am Fri, 28 Aug 2015 06:19:20 -0700
schrieb walt <w41ter@gmail.com>:

> I avoided yesterday's downgrade from ncurses-6.0 to ncurses-5.9-r4
> because it was obviously(?) a mistake.
> 
> This morning I just upgraded(?) ncurses-6.0 to ncurses-6.0-r1 and
> immediately after doing that, portage wants to downgrade(?) from
> 6.0-r1 back to 6.0.
> 
> This comedy of errors would be funny if it weren't emblematic of the
> larger and very scary problem we all face in real life:  computers now
> dominate every aspect of everything we do and what is expected of us by
> our employers, friends, family, and our government.  (I refer to the
> government here in the US.  Your government may vary.)

Yeah, this hasn't exactly been the smoothest change :-/ .

> Note that /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses/Changelog was last updated on
> April 6, several months ago.

That is an artifact of the git migration.  I believe it is being worked on.

> Rhetorical question:  what is the purpose of a Changelog?  Or any log,
> anywhere, like the captain's log on an oil tanker, for example, or an
> airliner, or in the IT department of the bank where your life savings
> are stored.  Who last rebooted that server, and why?
> 
> Who last updated ncurses, and why?  Yes, I looked at the ebuild, which
> cites a bug report, which may or may not serve as the log I'm asking
> for, but doesn't this all seem too complicated to work smoothly for
> years without frequent fsck-ups?
[...]

You can try the gitweb interface, for example like this:
https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/log/?qt=grep&q=ncurses.

HTH
-- 
Marc Joliet
--
"People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who know we
don't" - Bjarne Stroustrup

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Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Rich Freeman]

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On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 9:19 AM, walt <w41ter@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Note that /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses/Changelog was last updated on
> April 6, several months ago.
>
> Rhetorical question:  what is the purpose of a Changelog?

Gentoo is no longer maintaining the old Changelog files.  The source
of all change logs going forward is in git:


I believe there is interest in creating the old-format Changelogs for
the rsync servers.  They won't be present in the git repository, since
they're just redundant extra data to sync.

>
> Who last updated ncurses, and why?

git whatchanged /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses > /tmp/log.txt

See the attachment.  You can ask git for full diffs as well fairly
easily, or show them for individual commits or whatever.  Then github
or gentoo's git viewer can show you it in a pretty picture.

-- 
Rich

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commit 0f20b4ddc60c23a84ae918f31933d8e5f0b7d9eb
Author: Jason Zaman <perfinion@gentoo.org>
Date:   Fri Aug 28 01:03:10 2015 +0800

    sys-libs/ncurses: Add bridging ebuild to fix slot move for 5/6 -> 0/6
    
    Gentoo-Bug: https://bugs.gentoo.org/558856
    
    Package-Manager: portage-2.2.20.1

:000000 100644 0000000... a8b1c1e... A	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-6.0-r1.ebuild
:100644 100644 a8b1c1e... 3a9d218... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-6.0.ebuild

commit 96470175e0316e0f3402cbce5a83838461e17f75
Author: Jason Zaman <perfinion@gentoo.org>
Date:   Fri Aug 28 00:59:38 2015 +0800

    sys-libs/ncurses: add multilib useflags to the bridge 5.9 ebuild
    
    Package-Manager: portage-2.2.20.1

:100644 100644 95611e9... 49dd18f... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r99.ebuild

commit 5b9725757eaf3b7ec32ae854151183f222ba4189
Author: Jason Zaman <perfinion@gentoo.org>
Date:   Thu Aug 27 19:57:59 2015 +0800

    sys-libs/ncurses: Stabilize the bridging packages for the failed slotmove on all arches
    
    Gentoo-bug: https://bugs.gentoo.org/558856
    
    Package-Manager: portage-2.2.20.1

:100644 100644 3668c97... 33f97d4... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r5.ebuild
:100644 100644 4b40743... 95611e9... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r99.ebuild

commit 125fb7a6cdcde8fb1c7dd59edf87dbf276025ef4
Author: Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
Date:   Thu Aug 27 02:49:36 2015 -0400

    sys-libs/ncurses: add dummy package to bridge SLOT move #558856
    
    Since the slotmove operator does not properly update implicit subslots
    in generated dependencies in the vdb, add a dummy ebuild to bridge the
    old SLOT=5[/5] and the new SLOT=0/5.

:000000 100644 0000000... 3668c97... A	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r5.ebuild
:000000 100644 0000000... 4b40743... A	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r99.ebuild
:100644 100644 145960b... a8b1c1e... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-6.0.ebuild

commit 8cc8ae51e676d082f5c785a7463e54773cf96714
Author: Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
Date:   Wed Aug 26 13:41:36 2015 -0400

    sys-libs/ncurses: rewrite SLOT=5 ebuild #557472
    
    Delete code that doesn't make sense in an ABI-only ebuild,
    and backport changes from the ncurses-6 ebuild.

:100644 000000 f37ebf4... 0000000... D	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r100.ebuild
:000000 100644 0000000... 00166f6... A	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r101.ebuild

commit bc763694f07e96137c03ff88643c4535ea645250
Author: Justin Lecher <jlec@gentoo.org>
Date:   Wed Aug 26 14:23:59 2015 +0200

    sys-libs/ncurses: Fix blocker
    
    Package-Manager: portage-2.2.20.1
    Signed-off-by: Justin Lecher <jlec@gentoo.org>

:100644 100644 40db661... f37ebf4... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r100.ebuild

commit ec1cb36e722e62cf504f89ffdfc05ce87407ae3d
Author: Justin Lecher <jlec@gentoo.org>
Date:   Wed Aug 26 14:19:10 2015 +0200

    sys-libs/ncurses: Add compatibility package for binary packages
    
    Gentoo-Bug: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=557472
    
    Package-Manager: portage-2.2.20.1
    Signed-off-by: Justin Lecher <jlec@gentoo.org>

:100644 100644 7856364... e136782... M	sys-libs/ncurses/metadata.xml
:000000 100644 0000000... 40db661... A	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r100.ebuild

commit 051ad88caa127419c80d473021ab8909a2268789
Author: Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
Date:   Wed Aug 26 02:17:49 2015 -0400

    sys-libs/ncurses: move to SLOT=0 #557472
    
    Use SLOT=0 for installing of main development files like other packages
    so we can use other SLOTs for installing SONAME libs for binary packages.

:100644 100644 c0ee3a5... be2a9bd... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r3.ebuild
:100644 100644 6cf1f60... 006c932... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r4.ebuild
:100644 100644 692d94b... 145960b... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-6.0.ebuild

commit 1bfb585cc60a9e59b690700e7a0dadc691e2b9d0
Author: Mike Gilbert <floppym@gentoo.org>
Date:   Mon Aug 24 16:12:35 2015 -0400

    Revert DOCTYPE SYSTEM https changes in metadata.xml
    
    repoman does not yet accept the https version.
    This partially reverts eaaface92ee81f30a6ac66fe7acbcc42c00dc450.
    
    Bug: https://bugs.gentoo.org/552720

:100644 100644 41b70b3... 7856364... M	sys-libs/ncurses/metadata.xml

commit 37bbeedfc9da875ab8972d54d2328d808a700c10
Author: Justin Lecher <jlec@gentoo.org>
Date:   Mon Aug 24 15:37:21 2015 +0200

    Use https for most gnu.org URLs
    
    Signed-off-by: Justin Lecher <jlec@gentoo.org>

:100644 100644 59540d4... c0ee3a5... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r3.ebuild
:100644 100644 2d241b1... 6cf1f60... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r4.ebuild
:100644 100644 39ebaaf... 692d94b... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-6.0.ebuild

commit eaaface92ee81f30a6ac66fe7acbcc42c00dc450
Author: Justin Lecher <jlec@gentoo.org>
Date:   Mon Aug 24 12:47:45 2015 +0200

    Use https by default
    
    Convert all URLs for sites supporting encrypted connections from http to https
    
    Signed-off-by: Justin Lecher <jlec@gentoo.org>

:100644 100644 7856364... 41b70b3... M	sys-libs/ncurses/metadata.xml

commit badf9b730721ec3c0781588cb7614721db3a045a
Author: Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
Date:   Mon Aug 17 09:41:54 2015 -0400

    sys-libs/ncurses: rework handling of build-time tic #557834
    
    There are more cases where a version of tic is needed that matches the
    current version of source beyond cross-compiling.  New installs, multilib,
    and upgrades also run into this case.  Drop the cross-compile test and run
    the code whenever the host version isn't in sync.

:100644 100644 81c87de... 39ebaaf... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-6.0.ebuild

commit ed09185ff04818538e98f5b9e58b5a8ad6eec2ad
Author: Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
Date:   Mon Aug 17 09:39:39 2015 -0400

    sys-libs/ncurses: block older x11-terms/st #557454

:100644 100644 898956c... 81c87de... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-6.0.ebuild

commit e591343cf95c540431503950072ab2b49a70aec0
Author: Repository QA checks <repo-qa-checks@gentoo.org>
Date:   Wed Aug 12 10:06:09 2015 -0400

    2015-08-12 14:06:08 UTC

:000000 100644 0000000... 188e6ad... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-6.0-ticlib.patch
:100644 100644 a73d58f... 898956c... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-6.0.ebuild

commit d4017f5e973af975a3facf642ddc027bd965eba8
Author: Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
Date:   Wed Aug 12 09:54:05 2015 -0400

    sys-libs/ncurses: fix header mismatch with multilib installs #557360
    
    The progs change had a subtle effect that broke multilib builds.
    A few ticlib headers aren't installed when progs are disabled.
    Add a patch to always install them regardless of the progs state.

:000000 100644 0000000... 188e6ad... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-6.0-ticlib.patch
:100644 100644 a73d58f... 898956c... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-6.0.ebuild

commit 02c6e5baa34ff3a02d5d2db1a674e744248f7f91
Author: Repository QA checks <repo-qa-checks@gentoo.org>
Date:   Wed Aug 12 06:44:46 2015 -0400

    2015-08-12 10:44:45 UTC

:100644 100644 92a0d98... fe874fd... M	sys-libs/ncurses/Manifest
:000000 100644 0000000... 1403a29... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-6.0-gfbsd.patch
:000000 100644 0000000... 6808319... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-6.0-pkg-config.patch
:000000 100644 0000000... af3df94... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-6.0-rxvt-unicode-9.15.patch
:000000 100644 0000000... a73d58f... A	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-6.0.ebuild

commit f812f0eafe80c5dc524b300f41c7d32b35e8f6f1
Author: Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
Date:   Wed Aug 12 06:36:55 2015 -0400

    sys-libs/ncurses: add USE=threads support #510440
    
    Now that we support the new ABI 6, we can support installing the threaded
    versions of ncurses alongside the non-threaded.

:100644 100644 b0bd0f9... a73d58f... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-6.0.ebuild

commit 5afe80ab951f4c7bf76ca48f4432dcbcec1f791f
Author: Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
Date:   Wed Aug 12 06:34:08 2015 -0400

    sys-libs/ncurses: rework use of BUILD_DIR
    
    Rather than maintain parallel dirs, create subdirs of the main BUILD_DIR.
    This makes the overall flow a bit simpler as we can also stick the cross
    logic in there too.

:100644 100644 0a44ca6... b0bd0f9... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-6.0.ebuild

commit 0671fd8b94d3ee9eb164bae47d2ad0871d5632ae
Author: Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
Date:   Wed Aug 12 06:29:26 2015 -0400

    sys-libs/ncurses: run configure steps in parallel
    
    This gives us a nice speed boost as the configure script is quite large.
    Follow up changes will make this more apparent (when we run configure up
    to 4 times instead of just 2).

:100644 100644 08d4b73... 0a44ca6... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-6.0.ebuild

commit 1c3e65403d006ea25f98e6405486fa1201e9d173
Author: Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
Date:   Wed Aug 12 06:27:00 2015 -0400

    sys-libs/ncurses: rework disabling of progs
    
    Since the configure script has an option to disable progs, leverage that
    instead of whiting out a random make variable.  It's the same result, but
    feels cleaner and requires less code.

:100644 100644 8a055bf... 08d4b73... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-6.0.ebuild

commit 29a9b9b90f986edfdbea997315d7bb34762e32a1
Author: Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
Date:   Wed Aug 12 06:23:40 2015 -0400

    sys-libs/ncurses: avoid building tests when unused
    
    If the user isn't going to run the testsuite, there's no point in building
    all the test binaries, so put that logic behind the standard USE=test.

:100644 100644 7372e09... 8a055bf... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-6.0.ebuild

commit d76590f6efb6a7fd7c5465886be12b03c688c944
Author: Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
Date:   Wed Aug 12 06:22:17 2015 -0400

    sys-libs/ncurses: build the C++ libs as shared
    
    Since upstream has a configure flag for this now, we should be able to
    build+install the C++ layers as shared libs instead of only making the
    static libs available.

:100644 100644 92adb1e... 7372e09... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-6.0.ebuild

commit c44913450f0e5957fe2bd51ead50570031e00cb8
Author: Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
Date:   Wed Aug 12 06:20:13 2015 -0400

    sys-libs/ncurses: simplify the multilib dep logic
    
    Block the emul package all the time now that it's no longer in the tree.
    
    Unify the gpm deps since there's already a circular dep here and the
    multilib code makes no real difference in that respect.

:100644 100644 476481d... 92adb1e... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-6.0.ebuild

commit a8bc05519a12cd2bad582b23d8de7c4924b5bd7f
Author: Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
Date:   Wed Aug 12 06:11:28 2015 -0400

    sys-libs/ncurses: version bump to 6.0
    
    The bare min changes are here to get it working as more updates will
    follow.  Focus is on making the base ABI match upstream defaults for
    this release -- namely that we update to ABI 6 which includes colors
    and other new extended features. #373767
    
    Based on work by Lars Wendler.

:100644 100644 92a0d98... fe874fd... M	sys-libs/ncurses/Manifest
:000000 100644 0000000... 1403a29... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-6.0-gfbsd.patch
:000000 100644 0000000... 6808319... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-6.0-pkg-config.patch
:000000 100644 0000000... af3df94... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-6.0-rxvt-unicode-9.15.patch
:000000 100644 0000000... 476481d... A	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-6.0.ebuild

commit 6ee0cc1bf44d90ce04c9c61a0e5010d3592586fb
Author: Repository QA checks <repo-qa-checks@gentoo.org>
Date:   Wed Aug 12 06:24:56 2015 -0400

    2015-08-12 10:24:55 UTC

:100644 100644 1803834... 59540d4... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r3.ebuild
:100644 100644 e4553aa... 2d241b1... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r4.ebuild

commit 912dfbf3095a5087982364d5813b3ebdc03c4cf7
Author: Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
Date:   Wed Aug 12 04:48:41 2015 -0400

    sys-libs/ncurses: use libgpm.so.1 all the time #544828
    
    Since the gpm code relies on running ldd on the linked file in order to
    calculate the SONAME, and we're passing this in as a configure flag some
    of the time, just change the code to always pass it in.  This stabilizes
    behavior across cross-compiling/multilib/ldd output/etc...  Relying on
    ldd output in general is bad juju.

:100644 100644 1803834... 59540d4... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r3.ebuild
:100644 100644 e4553aa... 2d241b1... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r4.ebuild

commit 945f0d2a26da4f944fd06ad6a874f69d37ce1e06
Author: Repository QA checks <repo-qa-checks@gentoo.org>
Date:   Sun Aug 9 05:26:46 2015 -0400

    2015-08-09 09:26:21 UTC

:100644 000000 0321736... 0000000... D	sys-libs/ncurses/ChangeLog
:100644 100644 11e8610... 92a0d98... M	sys-libs/ncurses/Manifest
:100644 100644 c93eb8a... 1803834... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r3.ebuild
:100644 100644 a093438... e4553aa... M	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r4.ebuild

commit 56bd759df1d0c750a065b8c845e93d5dfa6b549d
Author: Robin H. Johnson <robbat2@gentoo.org>
Date:   Sat Aug 8 13:49:04 2015 -0700

    proj/gentoo: Initial commit
    
    This commit represents a new era for Gentoo:
    Storing the gentoo-x86 tree in Git, as converted from CVS.
    
    This commit is the start of the NEW history.
    Any historical data is intended to be grafted onto this point.
    
    Creation process:
    1. Take final CVS checkout snapshot
    2. Remove ALL ChangeLog* files
    3. Transform all Manifests to thin
    4. Remove empty Manifests
    5. Convert all stale $Header$/$Id$ CVS keywords to non-expanded Git $Id$
    5.1. Do not touch files with -kb/-ko keyword flags.
    
    Signed-off-by: Robin H. Johnson <robbat2@gentoo.org>
    X-Thanks: Alec Warner <antarus@gentoo.org> - did the GSoC 2006 migration tests
    X-Thanks: Robin H. Johnson <robbat2@gentoo.org> - infra guy, herding this project
    X-Thanks: Nguyen Thai Ngoc Duy <pclouds@gentoo.org> - Former Gentoo developer, wrote Git features for the migration
    X-Thanks: Brian Harring <ferringb@gentoo.org> - wrote much python to improve cvs2svn
    X-Thanks: Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> - validation scripts
    X-Thanks: Patrick Lauer <patrick@gentoo.org> - Gentoo dev, running new 2014 work in migration
    X-Thanks: Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> - scripts, QA, nagging
    X-Thanks: All of other Gentoo developers - many ideas and lots of paint on the bikeshed

:000000 100644 0000000... 92a0d98... A	sys-libs/ncurses/Manifest
:000000 100644 0000000... 3f4a405... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-5.7-nongnu.patch
:000000 100644 0000000... 0200a14... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-5.8-gfbsd.patch
:000000 100644 0000000... 0c6ca7a... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-5.9-fix-clang-build.patch
:000000 100644 0000000... 2448229... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-5.9-gcc-5.patch
:000000 100644 0000000... 5c968e7... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-5.9-no-I-usr-include.patch
:000000 100644 0000000... 7c3c04a... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-5.9-pkg-config.patch
:000000 100644 0000000... b6d1924... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-5.9-rxvt-unicode-9.15.patch
:000000 100644 0000000... 7856364... A	sys-libs/ncurses/metadata.xml
:000000 100644 0000000... 1803834... A	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r3.ebuild
:000000 100644 0000000... e4553aa... A	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r4.ebuild

commit a637bd65b7fef8e2be4e7fc6e9097479372e0e2e
Author: Repository QA checks <repo-qa-checks@gentoo.org>
Date:   Fri Jun 19 12:38:33 2015 -0400

    2015-06-19 16:35:30 UTC

:000000 100644 0000000... 0321736... A	sys-libs/ncurses/ChangeLog
:000000 100644 0000000... 11e8610... A	sys-libs/ncurses/Manifest
:000000 100644 0000000... 3f4a405... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-5.7-nongnu.patch
:000000 100644 0000000... 0200a14... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-5.8-gfbsd.patch
:000000 100644 0000000... 0c6ca7a... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-5.9-fix-clang-build.patch
:000000 100644 0000000... 2448229... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-5.9-gcc-5.patch
:000000 100644 0000000... 5c968e7... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-5.9-no-I-usr-include.patch
:000000 100644 0000000... 7c3c04a... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-5.9-pkg-config.patch
:000000 100644 0000000... b6d1924... A	sys-libs/ncurses/files/ncurses-5.9-rxvt-unicode-9.15.patch
:000000 100644 0000000... 7856364... A	sys-libs/ncurses/metadata.xml
:000000 100644 0000000... c93eb8a... A	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r3.ebuild
:000000 100644 0000000... a093438... A	sys-libs/ncurses/ncurses-5.9-r4.ebuild

Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Marc Joliet <marcec@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> You can try the gitweb interface, for example like this:
> https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/log/?qt=grep&q=ncurses.
>

A better view might be:
https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/log/sys-libs/ncurses

or if you prefer:
https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/commits/master/sys-libs/ncurses

This should settle down - it has been getting attention.  There is an
issue with slot moves under EAPI5, and it just hasn't come up before.
I think we need to sort out how to best handle something like this in
the future.

-- 
Rich

[gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[James]

Rich Freeman <rich0 <at> gentoo.org> writes:

> 
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 9:19 AM, walt <w41ter <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Note that /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses/Changelog was last updated on
> > April 6, several months ago.
> >
> > Rhetorical question:  what is the purpose of a Changelog?
> 
> Gentoo is no longer maintaining the old Changelog files.  The source
> of all change logs going forward is in git:
> 
> I believe there is interest in creating the old-format Changelogs for
> the rsync servers.  They won't be present in the git repository, since
> they're just redundant extra data to sync.
> 
> >
> > Who last updated ncurses, and why?
> 
> git whatchanged /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses > /tmp/log.txt
> 
> See the attachment.  You can ask git for full diffs as well fairly
> easily, or show them for individual commits or whatever.  Then github
> or gentoo's git viewer can show you it in a pretty picture.


Hmmm. Changelogs are easy to view (less) and all quickly available
on your system, should your issues with a particular ebuild coincide
with network issues (cheap/sorry ISP for example). I use them 
extensively, now that I know of  quite a few devs, read the gentoo-dev
list and hack around the various ebuilds myself.

It there an easy, automated way to have this inforation on my system(s)
without extra keystrokes? I have become critically dependant on Changelogs
to ferret out quite a few issues, so some suggestions on automating (via
git) those Changelogs (not attached to the file name but certainly the
concurrent data) would be keenly appreciated. I do not want to have to do
what you suggest above, on a per package basis. I want all of the former
Changelog data and automated in the background. So advise as to pathways
or just waiting patiently as it is in somebody's todo list, would
be greatly appreciated?

Surely, I'm not asking too much?  Explain?


regards,
James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 10:24 AM, James <wireless@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> It there an easy, automated way to have this inforation on my system(s)
> without extra keystrokes?

Either wait for somebody to provide the old-style changelogs (some
consider this critical, some consider this pointless - I'll admit I
tend to fall in the latter), or just sync from git and run git
log/whatchanged <path> or even tig <path>.  That really gets you the
same info and more, and lets you filter by path, file, and so on.
Also, if a commit touched many packages at once it will show up in the
log for each of the packages, but looking at it will also show you all
the other related changes.  It really is a much more data-rich view.

While I do believe the ChangeLogs will show up again for those who
prefer them, I think that taking a bit of time to learn to use git is
going to make your life better in the long haul.  I think that in time
people will stop using ChageLogs.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Philip Webb]

150828 Rich Freeman wrote:

> git whatchanged /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses > /tmp/log.txt

Tested as user :

  690: ~> git whatchanged /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses > tmp/log.txt
  fatal: Not a git repository (or any parent up to mount point /home)
  Stopping at filesystem boundary (GIT_DISCOVERY_ACROSS_FILESYSTEM not set).

> A better view might be:
>  https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/log/sys-libs/ncurses
> or if you prefer:
>  https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/commits/master/sys-libs/ncurses

Yes, those seem to be useful, tho' I haven't run into the problem myself.

I hope it's not going to be a requirement for Gentoo users
that they become experts in using Git.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

[gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[James]

Rich Freeman <rich0 <at> gentoo.org> writes:

> 
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 10:24 AM, James <wireless <at> tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > It there an easy, automated way to have this inforation on my system(s)
> > without extra keystrokes?
> 
> Either wait for somebody to provide the old-style changelogs (some
> consider this critical, some consider this pointless - I'll admit I
> tend to fall in the latter), or just sync from git and run git
> log/whatchanged <path> or even tig <path>.  That really gets you the
> same info and more, and lets you filter by path, file, and so on.

Well, my git (kung fu) is currently terse. So, how do I automate
this so the data via Git is on my system, say synced once a day?
What I do not want is a 'per package' effort; suggestions
are most welcome as is syntactical examples.

> Also, if a commit touched many packages at once it will show up in the
> log for each of the packages, but looking at it will also show you all
> the other related changes.  It really is a much more data-rich view.

I agree with this. But since the Changlog data was a fundamental part
of Gentoo, for a very long time, and the devs wisely chose to upgrade
to git, I would think that this functionality would be provided
via git, at least by some hacks or detailed example. I do not need
another project and I do read and experiment quite a bit with git. But that
growth is going to take time. In the meantime WE, the gentoo users should
not be required to study git and roll our own solution, one at a time from
previously well defined functionality, imho. Besides Git is
quite a beast:: how long from inception to completion did the gentoo git
migration take? years? a decade?

> While I do believe the ChangeLogs will show up again for those who
> prefer them, I think that taking a bit of time to learn to use git is
> going to make your life better in the long haul.  I think that in time
> people will stop using ChangeLogs.

But that's exactly the point; for Changelogs and such info, there
should at least be a news item or dev-blog post on automating such
things. Per packages solutions miss the point of convenience of Changelogs.
Enhanced data beyond changelogs? Sure, but that caveat should not be
a blocker to what was available. ymmv. 


The simple matter is Changelogs are very useful, quick and simple and 
once you see a seasoned dev did the work, most look elsewhere for problems.
As you know there is quite a variance in dev skills, particularly with
different languages and large/complex projects.


wwr,
James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hello, Rich.

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 10:53:00AM -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 10:24 AM, James <wireless@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > It there an easy, automated way to have this inforation on my system(s)
> > without extra keystrokes?

[ .... ]

> While I do believe the ChangeLogs will show up again for those who
> prefer them, I think that taking a bit of time to learn to use git is
> going to make your life better in the long haul.

I disagree completely.  A little time spent on git is time wasted.  Only
a lot of time spent on git is useful.  git is to VCSs as assembler is to
programming languages.  To use either effectively, you've got to have a
complete grasp of the internal logic of git/the processor.  This is in
stark contrast with, say, Mercurial or CVS, or a language like C.  For
comparison, the collected man pages of git (collected into an info file)
weigh in at 1.9 Mb.  For Mercurial, the single man page is just 315k.  I
speak from bitter experience.

> I think that in time people will stop using ChangeLogs.

I think people will be using ChangeLogs for as long as they exist.  The
ChangeLog is a very convenient and useful reference.  By comparison,
typing in arcane commands to git is a pain, even if you're only going to
be doing it once whilst creating a script.

> -- 
> Rich

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Alec Ten Harmsel]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 11:20:34AM -0400, Philip Webb wrote:
> 150828 Rich Freeman wrote:
> 
> > git whatchanged /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses > /tmp/log.txt
> 
> Tested as user :
> 
>   690: ~> git whatchanged /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses > tmp/log.txt
>   fatal: Not a git repository (or any parent up to mount point /home)
>   Stopping at filesystem boundary (GIT_DISCOVERY_ACROSS_FILESYSTEM not set).

You would need to change the gentoo repo in repos.conf to sync with git
instead of rsync (or whatever you're currently using).

> I hope it's not going to be a requirement for Gentoo users
> that they become experts in using Git.

Not normal users, no. Anyone who is trying to debug issues with
ebuilds/portage is not a `normal user', but performing the functions of
a developer and therefore should have a minimal knowledge of the
relevant development tools.

Alec

Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Dale]

Alec Ten Harmsel wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 11:20:34AM -0400, Philip Webb wrote:
>> 150828 Rich Freeman wrote:
>>
>>> git whatchanged /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses > /tmp/log.txt
>> Tested as user :
>>
>>   690: ~> git whatchanged /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses > tmp/log.txt
>>   fatal: Not a git repository (or any parent up to mount point /home)
>>   Stopping at filesystem boundary (GIT_DISCOVERY_ACROSS_FILESYSTEM not set).
> You would need to change the gentoo repo in repos.conf to sync with git
> instead of rsync (or whatever you're currently using).
>
>> I hope it's not going to be a requirement for Gentoo users
>> that they become experts in using Git.
> Not normal users, no. Anyone who is trying to debug issues with
> ebuilds/portage is not a `normal user', but performing the functions of
> a developer and therefore should have a minimal knowledge of the
> relevant development tools.
>
> Alec
>
>


I'm as far away from being a developer as one can get and even I go dig
sometimes.  It seems git is going to put a stop to that tho.  o_O   I
have yet to make any sense of this git stuff.  I'm not complaining about
the change just pointing out that I haven't figured out the change yet,
and may not ever. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Emanuele Rusconi]

For anybody who thinks git is hard, I'll just leave here my own
thoughts on the matter.

As a user - not specifically a Gentoo user - I only need to know 3 commands:

  - git clone <URI>
  - git pull
  - tig

That's it. Tig is in dev-vcs/tig, BTW, and it's really handy.

When I experimented with managing my config files with git I did a lot
of reading (I was new to VCS in general), and in the end I realized
that, although git is really powerful and complex, for my needs I
actually really needed to know just a handful of basic commands, and I
could use tig and/or gitk for almost anything.

-- Emanuele Rusconi

[gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[James]

walt <w41ter <at> gmail.com> writes:


> I avoided yesterday's downgrade from ncurses-6.0 to ncurses-5.9-r4
> because it was obviously(?) a mistake.

I believe you. But here's what I just experienced::

I syncd a few hours ago. Now when I just went to upgrade I got this
gyration of the latest ncurses debacle::


[ebuild     U #] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r5:0/5::gentoo [5.9-r4:0/0::gentoo] 
[ebuild  NS   #] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r99:5::gentoo [5.9-r4:0::gentoo] 



OK so I masked off those to in package.mask.

I decided to up grade a few packages, one at a time. Upgrading openssl
got this response::
>>> Emerging (1 of 2) sys-libs/ncurses-6.0-r1::gentoo

and it is not stable nor has it been unmasked.

Something really funky/flunky be happening with ncurses (again).

Now look::
[ebuild  NS   ~] sys-libs/ncurses-5.9-r101:5::gentoo
[ebuild  NS   ~] sys-libs/ncurses-6.0:5/6::gentoo 


Surely I can mask off these updates and stay with ::
sys-libs/ncurses- 5.9-r4

For a while, till things settle a bit?  Weird. I mask off a version
and a newer, later version appears. wtf?

> Who last updated ncurses, and why? 

I believe you have 'hit the nail' dead center. Maybe a systemd requirement
perhaps? I do not know.  I know, systemd is running git now?


James

Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Dale]

Emanuele Rusconi wrote:
> For anybody who thinks git is hard, I'll just leave here my own
> thoughts on the matter.
>
> As a user - not specifically a Gentoo user - I only need to know 3 commands:
>
>   - git clone <URI>
>   - git pull
>   - tig
>
> That's it. Tig is in dev-vcs/tig, BTW, and it's really handy.
>
> When I experimented with managing my config files with git I did a lot
> of reading (I was new to VCS in general), and in the end I realized
> that, although git is really powerful and complex, for my needs I
> actually really needed to know just a handful of basic commands, and I
> could use tig and/or gitk for almost anything.
>
> -- Emanuele Rusconi
>
>

Pardon me.  I just had to get up off the floor and return my tummy to
its previous and correct condition.  I thought I would check out the git
man page and just sorta skim over it.  The first thing I see is this:

NAME

git - the stupid content tracker

Now that is funny.  ROFL  Maybe there is hope for me yet.  LOL 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[covici]

Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 10:24 AM, James <wireless@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > It there an easy, automated way to have this inforation on my system(s)
> > without extra keystrokes?
> 
> Either wait for somebody to provide the old-style changelogs (some
> consider this critical, some consider this pointless - I'll admit I
> tend to fall in the latter), or just sync from git and run git
> log/whatchanged <path> or even tig <path>.  That really gets you the
> same info and more, and lets you filter by path, file, and so on.
> Also, if a commit touched many packages at once it will show up in the
> log for each of the packages, but looking at it will also show you all
> the other related changes.  It really is a much more data-rich view.
> 
> While I do believe the ChangeLogs will show up again for those who
> prefer them, I think that taking a bit of time to learn to use git is
> going to make your life better in the long haul.  I think that in time
> people will stop using ChageLogs.


So, do I need to change the rsync-type for gentoo o git, or how else do
I do this -- get the changelogs on my actual box?  Now, I don't see a
.git under /usr/portage which makes sense, but is syncing done now by
git?
\
-- 
Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
How do
you spend it?

         John Covici
         covici@ccs.covici.com

[gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[James]

Emanuele Rusconi <emarsk <at> gmail.com> writes:


> As a user - not specifically a Gentoo user - I only need to know 3 commands:

> When I experimented with managing my config files with git I did a lot
> of reading (I was new to VCS in general), and in the end I realized
> that, although git is really powerful and complex, for my needs I
> actually really needed to know just a handful of basic commands, and I
> could use tig and/or gitk for almost anything.

(3) things really? You can see into the future now?  I'm going to
be as polite as I can and say that is 'head in the sand' naive.

Read up on gitignore  [1] and how the devs plan on using it. It was quite
a discussion on gentoo-dev. Surely more is occurring 'back_channel' as it
should to formulate a comprehensive scheme for just one aspect of git.
All I suggested was basically the devs put a bit of extra thought into how
gitignore would be used by users and overlays to be compatible with codes
migrating from one's system to an overlay and maybe eventually the portage
tree. Entertaining as the dev sarcasms were, it's was/is a valid concern
because gitignore is used to prune/remove files in source trees. All users
maintain (at least temporally a source tree. And in case you have not read
up on it, we have something called 'epatch-user' where ordinary users can
inject code to test and permanently modify packages.


Sorry, but your position is 'clueless' even though well intentioned.
We are all going to be learning quite a bit of 'git' like it or not.
Git deployment is no excuse for crippling something as fundamental to
gentoo as the changelogs. There are a myriad of valid reason that those
changelogs are so pronounced and easy to find and explore.


I'm an ordinary gentoo user (a gentoo_commoner), just so you know.


wwr,
James

[1] http://git-scm.com/docs/gitignore

Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> wrote:
> 150828 Rich Freeman wrote:
>
>> git whatchanged /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses > /tmp/log.txt
>
> Tested as user :
>
>   690: ~> git whatchanged /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses > tmp/log.txt
>   fatal: Not a git repository (or any parent up to mount point /home)
>   Stopping at filesystem boundary (GIT_DISCOVERY_ACROSS_FILESYSTEM not set).

You're probably not using git to fetch your portage tree.

cat /etc/portage/repos.conf/gentoo.conf
[DEFAULT]
main-repo = gentoo

[gentoo]
location = /usr/portage
sync-type = git
sync-uri = https://github.com/gentoo-mirror/gentoo.git
auto-sync = yes

Fix that and you'll be fine.  Be aware that you're not going to have
any changelogs once you do this.  I'm not certain but you might have
to delete /usr/portage first - I have no idea how it handles existing
files.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Emanuele Rusconi]

James, maybe you skimmed over the premise "As a user - not
specifically a Gentoo user"?
Should I explain its implications?

I was specifically addressing the complaint that you need to be a git
guru just to access the changelogs. You don't. As Rich Freeman already
pointed out, it's really trivial, especially with tig.


-- Emanuele Rusconi

Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 1184 bytes --]

On Friday 28 Aug 2015 18:26:12 Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> wrote:
> > 150828 Rich Freeman wrote:
> >> git whatchanged /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses > /tmp/log.txt
> > 
> > Tested as user :
> >   690: ~> git whatchanged /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses > tmp/log.txt
> >   fatal: Not a git repository (or any parent up to mount point /home)
> >   Stopping at filesystem boundary (GIT_DISCOVERY_ACROSS_FILESYSTEM not
> >   set).
> 
> You're probably not using git to fetch your portage tree.
> 
> cat /etc/portage/repos.conf/gentoo.conf
> [DEFAULT]
> main-repo = gentoo
> 
> [gentoo]
> location = /usr/portage
> sync-type = git
> sync-uri = https://github.com/gentoo-mirror/gentoo.git
> auto-sync = yes
> 
> Fix that and you'll be fine.  Be aware that you're not going to have
> any changelogs once you do this.  I'm not certain but you might have
> to delete /usr/portage first - I have no idea how it handles existing
> files.

Just to make sure, for the rest us there's no need to change the current rsync 
mechanism, yes?  Otherwise we would see some enotice popping up?
-- 
Regards,
Mick

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 473 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 11:26 AM, James <wireless@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> I agree with this. But since the Changlog data was a fundamental part
> of Gentoo, for a very long time, and the devs wisely chose to upgrade
> to git, I would think that this functionality would be provided
> via git, at least by some hacks or detailed example.

See my email, and the follow-up with the repos.conf for fetching from git.

I'm sure the docs will continue to evolve, and changelogs may be
re-introduced in rsync.

> In the meantime WE, the gentoo users should
> not be required to study git and roll our own solution, one at a time from
> previously well defined functionality, imho. Besides Git is
> quite a beast:: how long from inception to completion did the gentoo git
> migration take? years? a decade?

If you give it a few months I'm sure everything will settle out.

We've taken WAY too long to complete the git migration, and most of
the delay was in the interest of avoiding impacting users with change.
We basically ended up drawing a line in the sand and saying that we
knew there would be little issues like this that annoy some people to
no end, and we'll just deal with that.  Otherwise it would have been
another 5 years before we end up cancelling the git migration and
started talking about whatever is replacing git.

> But that's exactly the point; for Changelogs and such info, there
> should at least be a news item or dev-blog post on automating such
> things. Per packages solutions miss the point of convenience of Changelogs.

Feel free to contribute a news item or blog post.  :)

And nobody is proposing any per-package solutions.  Git covers the
entire tree and we've standardized the commit messages/etc.

> Enhanced data beyond changelogs? Sure, but that caveat should not be
> a blocker to what was available. ymmv.

Sure, and those old-format changelogs will probably exist again some
day.  If more people find them useful, they're more likely to get
re-created.

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[covici]

Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> wrote:
> > 150828 Rich Freeman wrote:
> >
> >> git whatchanged /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses > /tmp/log.txt
> >
> > Tested as user :
> >
> >   690: ~> git whatchanged /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses > tmp/log.txt
> >   fatal: Not a git repository (or any parent up to mount point /home)
> >   Stopping at filesystem boundary (GIT_DISCOVERY_ACROSS_FILESYSTEM not set).
> 
> You're probably not using git to fetch your portage tree.
> 
> cat /etc/portage/repos.conf/gentoo.conf
> [DEFAULT]
> main-repo = gentoo
> 
> [gentoo]
> location = /usr/portage
> sync-type = git
> sync-uri = https://github.com/gentoo-mirror/gentoo.git
> auto-sync = yes
> 
> Fix that and you'll be fine.  Be aware that you're not going to have
> any changelogs once you do this.  I'm not certain but you might have
> to delete /usr/portage first - I have no idea how it handles existing
> files.

So, will I be able to see a git log for the packages?  Otherwise, what
is the advantage of doing this?  Will I see git logs for the ebuilds
only?



-- 
Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
How do
you spend it?

         John Covici
         covici@ccs.covici.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 11:26 AM, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:
>
> I disagree completely.  A little time spent on git is time wasted.  Only
> a lot of time spent on git is useful.

I disagree with this.

> git is to VCSs as assembler is to programming languages.  To use either
> effectively, you've got to have a complete grasp of the internal logic of
> git/the processor.

I agree with this.

> the collected man pages of git (collected into an info file)
> weigh in at 1.9 Mb.

And if you read them all 12 times it probably wouldn't help you out
with using git one bit.  I haven't read most of it, and I'd say that I
grok it.

You really need to take time to understand how git works, and that
doesn't actually take that much time.

The man pages are mainly used to figure out what Linus named the
command line option you're looking for when he was drunk and creating
a new subcommand.  Git has a beautiful design and a horrible
interface.  If you understand the design you'll know that there must
be a way to do something, but you'll spend 15min figuring out which
command line utility does it best.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 12:22 PM, James <wireless@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Surely I can mask off these updates and stay with ::
> sys-libs/ncurses- 5.9-r4
>
> For a while, till things settle a bit?  Weird. I mask off a version
> and a newer, later version appears. wtf?

In your long post you didn't actually say what version of ncurses
you're expecting to have, or whether you're running stable or ~arch.
I can't tell you EXACTLY what to do without knowing that.

However, in general my advice would be to remove anything you added to
any config files in the last few days that mentions ncurses, do an
emerge --sync, and then update your system as usual, and it will
probably work just fine.

Masking off packages will probably make things worse.

>
>> Who last updated ncurses, and why?
>
> I believe you have 'hit the nail' dead center. Maybe a systemd requirement
> perhaps? I do not know.  I know, systemd is running git now?
>

Well, I posted the git log earlier, but vapier made the initial
commit.  The intent was to adjust the package slot on ncurses to be
more consistent with how everything else works, and it looks like this
was done in part to make life easier on Gentoo Prefix:
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=558800

The problem was that EAPI5 (which is only a year old or so) interacts
with slot moves (which have been around for a long time) in a way that
wasn't anticipated.  Devs comfortable with slot moves didn't recognize
that this would be a high-impact change, and so there wasn't much
testing, and it directly hit stable.  I think we'll be talking more
about that from a lessons-learned perspective.

Of course, ncurses being such an important package just made this a huge mess.


-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 1:32 PM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday 28 Aug 2015 18:26:12 Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> wrote:
>> > 150828 Rich Freeman wrote:
>> >> git whatchanged /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses > /tmp/log.txt
>> >
>> > Tested as user :
>> >   690: ~> git whatchanged /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses > tmp/log.txt
>> >   fatal: Not a git repository (or any parent up to mount point /home)
>> >   Stopping at filesystem boundary (GIT_DISCOVERY_ACROSS_FILESYSTEM not
>> >   set).
>>
>> You're probably not using git to fetch your portage tree.
>>
>> cat /etc/portage/repos.conf/gentoo.conf
>> [DEFAULT]
>> main-repo = gentoo
>>
>> [gentoo]
>> location = /usr/portage
>> sync-type = git
>> sync-uri = https://github.com/gentoo-mirror/gentoo.git
>> auto-sync = yes
>>
>> Fix that and you'll be fine.  Be aware that you're not going to have
>> any changelogs once you do this.  I'm not certain but you might have
>> to delete /usr/portage first - I have no idea how it handles existing
>> files.
>
> Just to make sure, for the rest us there's no need to change the current rsync
> mechanism, yes?  Otherwise we would see some enotice popping up?

There is no requirement to sync using git.  If there were you'd have
gotten more news about it.

The current plan is to re-introduce changelogs.  I couldn't tell you
when this will happen, but it probably won't take terribly long.

Those who wish to use git can do so, and I'd encourage people to try.
It really does have a lot of advantages.  Oh, and it makes it really
easy to contribute patches/etc (just edit whatever you want in
/usr/portage and type git diff).

There really isn't any intent to cause people headaches, but please do
realize that there aren't a lot of people doing the work, especially
for big changes like this.  There were a million big things that could
go wrong with the migration and a few of the more serious ones
actually did go wrong, so there wasn't as much time for dealing with
stuff like this.

And in terms of user-impacting issues this ncurses foul-up was
probably the biggest issue I've seen hit the stable tree in a year or
two, and compared to some things I dealt with on Gentoo 10 years ago
it was pretty minor.  I'm actually impressed how stable is considering
we don't have as many bodies as we did back then.  When these sorts of
things come up your best bet is to just hold off on updating and
re-sync in a day or two, and by all means file a bug or take it to the
lists.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hello, Rich.

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 01:41:05PM -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 11:26 AM, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:

> > I disagree completely.  A little time spent on git is time wasted.  Only
> > a lot of time spent on git is useful.

> I disagree with this.

> > git is to VCSs as assembler is to programming languages.  To use either
> > effectively, you've got to have a complete grasp of the internal logic of
> > git/the processor.

> I agree with this.

> > the collected man pages of git (collected into an info file)
> > weigh in at 1.9 Mb.

> And if you read them all 12 times it probably wouldn't help you out
> with using git one bit.  I haven't read most of it, and I'd say that I
> grok it.

> You really need to take time to understand how git works, and that
> doesn't actually take that much time.

I've spent many tens of hours in the last year trying to get to grips
with git, ever since a project I work on (Emacs) converted to using git.

There are all sorts of stupidities in it - like `push' and `pull' not
being opposites, `clone' not producing a clone, but a new repository
radically different from the original.  Unnecessary arcane teminology,
and standard terminology perversely used to mean something different.

When everything works just fine, according to the book, I now have few
problems.  But when something goes wrong - like merge conflicts, for
example, I end up spending, perhaps, two hours searching the doc for an
answer then end up asking for help on the project mailing list.  With
the same problems in, say, hg or cvs, the answers would be clear within
a few minutes of opening the doc.

> The man pages are mainly used to figure out what Linus named the
> command line option you're looking for when he was drunk and creating
> a new subcommand.  Git has a beautiful design and a horrible
> interface.

I can accept that.

> If you understand the design you'll know that there must be a way to
> do something, but you'll spend 15min figuring out which command line
> utility does it best.

I don't want to have to understand the design.  I just want to be a
user.  I've got enough things competing for limited mental capacity as
it is.

> -- 
> Rich

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 1:40 PM,  <covici@ccs.covici.com> wrote:
> Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> wrote:
>> > 150828 Rich Freeman wrote:
>> >
>> >> git whatchanged /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses > /tmp/log.txt
>> >
>> > Tested as user :
>> >
>> >   690: ~> git whatchanged /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses > tmp/log.txt
>> >   fatal: Not a git repository (or any parent up to mount point /home)
>> >   Stopping at filesystem boundary (GIT_DISCOVERY_ACROSS_FILESYSTEM not set).
>>
>> You're probably not using git to fetch your portage tree.
>>
>> cat /etc/portage/repos.conf/gentoo.conf
>> [DEFAULT]
>> main-repo = gentoo
>>
>> [gentoo]
>> location = /usr/portage
>> sync-type = git
>> sync-uri = https://github.com/gentoo-mirror/gentoo.git
>> auto-sync = yes
>>
>> Fix that and you'll be fine.  Be aware that you're not going to have
>> any changelogs once you do this.  I'm not certain but you might have
>> to delete /usr/portage first - I have no idea how it handles existing
>> files.
>
> So, will I be able to see a git log for the packages?  Otherwise, what
> is the advantage of doing this?  Will I see git logs for the ebuilds
> only?

If you sync using git then you'll have a full clone of the Gentoo
repository on your drive.  Over time it will take more space, which is
the main downside (though I believe gentoo does a shallow clone by
default with no history).

You can see a git log for whatever you want.  git log will show you
every commit in the tree.  git log . will show you every commit that
affects the current directory or below.  And so on.  It does
everything a changelog does and more, and the same data will be used
to generate future changelogs.

I believe it is a shallow clone so on day 1 you actually won't see any
history.  You'll just see a log of future changes, which is probably
what interests a sysadmin most.  If you want the last few weeks of
changes you can fetch the full history with git fetch --unshallow.
You can also do things like git fetch --depth=n which will fetch or
discard commits to reach a given depth (so you could have a cron job
that discards down to 1000 commits once a week or whatever).

Since rsync time has been a discussion point on the list, I'll also
point out that git syncs are likely to be much faster if you rsync
regularly (daily-to-monthly).  Git knows exactly what changed from the
log - it doesn't have to stat every inode in /usr/portage to figure
out what is out of date.  If you only sync once a year then rsync will
be faster since it doesn't end up fetching every file that was added
to the tree and then removed six months later between your last sync
and today.

The git URI I posted above includes metadata, so it isn't quite the
live tree.  You can sync the actual live tree but then you'll need to
run egencache --update --repo gentoo to generate metadata if you use
eix or to make emerge go faster.  That isn't necessary if you use the
example above.

But, using git isn't the normal new-user experience, so don't expect
lots of news/etc if the URI changes and so on.  I'd think that anybody
who likes to look at changelogs is going to like using git once they
get used to it.  Honestly, if you're the sort that likes reading
changelogs then you probably should be putting /etc in git, perhaps
using sys-apps/etckeeper to do it.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Alec Ten Harmsel]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 06:45:47PM +0000, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> There are all sorts of stupidities in it - like `push' and `pull' not
> being opposites

That's fair.

> `clone' not producing a clone, but a new repository
> radically different from the original.

That is not true. It is a clone, just with all of the most recent
versions of the files checked out and availble for editing.

> Unnecessary arcane teminology, and standard terminology perversely
> used to mean something different.

That's also fair. I remember reading a bunch of stuff about the git team
generally doing the exact opposite of Subversion whenever they could
because they disliked it so much.

> > If you understand the design you'll know that there must be a way to
> > do something, but you'll spend 15min figuring out which command line
> > utility does it best.
> 
> I don't want to have to understand the design.  I just want to be a
> user.  I've got enough things competing for limited mental capacity as
> it is.

What? I don't think Rich means understanding all of the implementation
details, just high-level concepts like what a branch is, what a commit
is, and merging and rebasing. These topics - branching, merging, etc. -
are central to how a team works, so it is important to understand them
and how whatever VCS you're using deals with them.

Alec

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 3:10 PM, Alec Ten Harmsel
<alec@alectenharmsel.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 06:45:47PM +0000, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>>
>> I don't want to have to understand the design.  I just want to be a
>> user.  I've got enough things competing for limited mental capacity as
>> it is.
>
> What? I don't think Rich means understanding all of the implementation
> details, just high-level concepts like what a branch is, what a commit
> is, and merging and rebasing. These topics - branching, merging, etc. -
> are central to how a team works, so it is important to understand them
> and how whatever VCS you're using deals with them.
>

Well, I'd go a bit further.  To really appreciate git you should
understand git objects and their references, what a commit, tree, and
blob are.  Also, the whole copy-on-write concept and content-hashing
concept.

I used to think git looked really complicated until I sat through a
one hour talk that focused mostly on the data model.  Once you
understand the data model, you understand everything.  That doesn't
take a lot of time.

It does take a moderate amount of time spent learning the right
things.  They're not found in the manpages.

I'm not disagreeing at all with many of the gripes about git.  I still
share most of them, but now I feel like I'm the one in control and the
fact that git pull doesn't rebase by default is just an annoyance and
not a source of arcane behavior.

Like I said, beautiful design, horrible interface.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 28.08.2015 um 15:19 schrieb walt:
> I avoided yesterday's downgrade from ncurses-6.0 to ncurses-5.9-r4
> because it was obviously(?) a mistake.
>
> This morning I just upgraded(?) ncurses-6.0 to ncurses-6.0-r1 and
> immediately after doing that, portage wants to downgrade(?) from
> 6.0-r1 back to 6.0.
>
> This comedy of errors would be funny if it weren't emblematic of the
> larger and very scary problem we all face in real life:  computers now
> dominate every aspect of everything we do and what is expected of us by
> our employers, friends, family, and our government.  (I refer to the
> government here in the US.  Your government may vary.)
>
> Note that /usr/portage/sys-libs/ncurses/Changelog was last updated on
> April 6, several months ago.
>
> Rhetorical question:  what is the purpose of a Changelog?  Or any log,
> anywhere, like the captain's log on an oil tanker, for example, or an
> airliner, or in the IT department of the bank where your life savings
> are stored.  Who last rebooted that server, and why?
>
> Who last updated ncurses, and why?  Yes, I looked at the ebuild, which
> cites a bug report, which may or may not serve as the log I'm asking
> for, but doesn't this all seem too complicated to work smoothly for
> years without frequent fsck-ups?
>
> Now I have to go to work and face exactly the same fsck-ups there that
> I face when I update my gentoo machines, and that puts me in a bad mood.
>
>
>
>
> .
>

*shrug* preserved-libs and ncurses update went well. No problems here.
And since I am not a compulsive updater, I had no problems today either.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Philip Webb]

150828 Rich Freeman wrote:
> To really appreciate git you should understand git objects
> and their references, what a commit, tree, and blob are.
> Also, the whole copy-on-write concept and content-hashing concept.
> I used to think git looked really complicated until I sat
> through a  1 hr talk that focused mostly on the data model.
> Once you understand the data model, you understand everything.
> That doesn't take a lot of time.  It does take a moderate amount of time
> learning the right things.  They're not found in the manpages.
> Like I said, beautiful design, horrible interface.

So is there a Gentoo doc -- Wiki, presumably --
explaining to users -- users, not dev's or Git addicts --
the essentials of Git, so that they can readily update using it ?
If so, I'm willing to see if I can use it ;
if not, I would suggest it sb a top priority for dev's to write.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Marc Joliet]

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Am Fri, 28 Aug 2015 11:23:26 -0500
schrieb Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com>:

> Emanuele Rusconi wrote:
> > For anybody who thinks git is hard, I'll just leave here my own
> > thoughts on the matter.
> >
> > As a user - not specifically a Gentoo user - I only need to know 3 commands:
> >
> >   - git clone <URI>
> >   - git pull
> >   - tig
> >
> > That's it. Tig is in dev-vcs/tig, BTW, and it's really handy.
> >
> > When I experimented with managing my config files with git I did a lot
> > of reading (I was new to VCS in general), and in the end I realized
> > that, although git is really powerful and complex, for my needs I
> > actually really needed to know just a handful of basic commands, and I
> > could use tig and/or gitk for almost anything.
> >
> > -- Emanuele Rusconi
> >
> >
> 
> Pardon me.  I just had to get up off the floor and return my tummy to
> its previous and correct condition.  I thought I would check out the git
> man page and just sorta skim over it.  The first thing I see is this:
> 
> NAME
> 
> git - the stupid content tracker
> 
> Now that is funny.  ROFL  Maybe there is hope for me yet.  LOL 
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-) 

My favorite bit is a quote from Linus Torvalds himself:  "I'm an egotistical
bastard, and I name all my projects after myself. First 'Linux', now
'Git'." [0].  (For anyone like me who doesn't get it at first, see [1].)

[0] https://git.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Git_FAQ#Why_the_.27Git.27_name.3F
[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/git#English
-- 
Marc Joliet
--
"People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who know we
don't" - Bjarne Stroustrup

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[gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[walt]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 15:29:20 -0400
Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:

> I used to think git looked really complicated until I sat through a
> one hour talk that focused mostly on the data model.  Once you
> understand the data model, you understand everything.  That doesn't
> take a lot of time.

Does that talk happen to be available on youtube or some equivalent?

I'm a git fanboi in spite of its failings.  I've been using git since
Linus and Larry McVoy divorced (amicably, claims Linus) over where
the kernel source repo would reside.  That amicable divorce spawned the
development of git in the first place (says Linus).

I'm no expert on git, but 'git bisect' has allowed me to file countless
(for countless >= than the number of cc's of vino in my glass)  bug
reports over the years.

I see that all the gentooers who replied to my post have been lingering
in this mailing list for years.  (You are Old Farts, by my definition.)

All gentoo Old Farts are here because we are gentoo addicts and not one
of us could abandon gentoo even if we wanted to.  Including me.

[gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[James]

Rich Freeman <rich0 <at> gentoo.org> writes:



> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=558800

No big deal now that we can see all the recent changes to ncurses.

Me; I'm just going to wait until Monday, to sync and update.


> The problem was that EAPI5 (which is only a year old or so) interacts
> with slot moves (which have been around for a long time) in a way that
> wasn't anticipated.  Devs comfortable with slot moves didn't recognize
> that this would be a high-impact change, and so there wasn't much
> testing, and it directly hit stable.  I think we'll be talking more
> about that from a lessons-learned perspective.

I appreciate the explanation.
I've already move on to other projects this weekend.

I just hope there his a gentoo wiki page on GIT that minimizes the what
we need to read and some clear examples on how to do things and why.
I know it's evolving.

> Of course, ncurses being such an important package just made this a huge mess.

Yep it first hit me a few days ago with libcaca and the LXQT install.
All is fine now for me. PS. I use man pages as references. They rarely
"connect the dots" like your previously referred to presentation. That
would be keen to link off of a gentoo wiki page; or get one of the more
knowledgable gentoo devs to provide something handy and simple. Lord knows,
we gonna be revisiting GIT issues for a while.....

thx,
James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Dale]

walt wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 15:29:20 -0400
> Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>> I used to think git looked really complicated until I sat through a
>> one hour talk that focused mostly on the data model.  Once you
>> understand the data model, you understand everything.  That doesn't
>> take a lot of time.
> Does that talk happen to be available on youtube or some equivalent?
>
> I'm a git fanboi in spite of its failings.  I've been using git since
> Linus and Larry McVoy divorced (amicably, claims Linus) over where
> the kernel source repo would reside.  That amicable divorce spawned the
> development of git in the first place (says Linus).
>
> I'm no expert on git, but 'git bisect' has allowed me to file countless
> (for countless >= than the number of cc's of vino in my glass)  bug
> reports over the years.
>
> I see that all the gentooers who replied to my post have been lingering
> in this mailing list for years.  (You are Old Farts, by my definition.)
>
> All gentoo Old Farts are here because we are gentoo addicts and not one
> of us could abandon gentoo even if we wanted to.  Including me.
>
>
>


That may help me too.  It took me a while to have a sorta understanding
of how Gentoo is set up ebuild wise and such and now I feel like I did
back in 2003.  Having it on youtube or something would be really good. 
I did find this tho:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73I5dRucCds 

I'll try to watch it later.  Of course, that video leads to other videos
since Youtube tries to show similar ones in its suggestion thingy. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 2021 bytes --]

On Saturday 29 Aug 2015 04:32:48 Dale wrote:
> walt wrote:
> > On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 15:29:20 -0400
> > 
> > Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >> I used to think git looked really complicated until I sat through a
> >> one hour talk that focused mostly on the data model.  Once you
> >> understand the data model, you understand everything.  That doesn't
> >> take a lot of time.
> > 
> > Does that talk happen to be available on youtube or some equivalent?
> > 
> > I'm a git fanboi in spite of its failings.  I've been using git since
> > Linus and Larry McVoy divorced (amicably, claims Linus) over where
> > the kernel source repo would reside.  That amicable divorce spawned the
> > development of git in the first place (says Linus).
> > 
> > I'm no expert on git, but 'git bisect' has allowed me to file countless
> > (for countless >= than the number of cc's of vino in my glass)  bug
> > reports over the years.
> > 
> > I see that all the gentooers who replied to my post have been lingering
> > in this mailing list for years.  (You are Old Farts, by my definition.)
> > 
> > All gentoo Old Farts are here because we are gentoo addicts and not one
> > of us could abandon gentoo even if we wanted to.  Including me.
> 
> That may help me too.  It took me a while to have a sorta understanding
> of how Gentoo is set up ebuild wise and such and now I feel like I did
> back in 2003.  Having it on youtube or something would be really good.
> I did find this tho:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73I5dRucCds
> 
> I'll try to watch it later.  

Don't.

You'll waste an inordinate amount of time listening to the drone of someone's 
uncontrollable verbiage, which contains less that 1% meaningful information.

I suspect that 10 minutes should be enough to explain what git is, what github 
is, how you use them.

Unfortunately, any videos I found over a 10 minute youtube search didn't 
provide me with anything useful to share.  :-(

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Todd Goodman]

* Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> [150828 18:35]:
> 150828 Rich Freeman wrote:
> > To really appreciate git you should understand git objects
> > and their references, what a commit, tree, and blob are.
> > Also, the whole copy-on-write concept and content-hashing concept.
> > I used to think git looked really complicated until I sat
> > through a  1 hr talk that focused mostly on the data model.
> > Once you understand the data model, you understand everything.
> > That doesn't take a lot of time.  It does take a moderate amount of time
> > learning the right things.  They're not found in the manpages.
> > Like I said, beautiful design, horrible interface.
> 
> So is there a Gentoo doc -- Wiki, presumably --
> explaining to users -- users, not dev's or Git addicts --
> the essentials of Git, so that they can readily update using it ?
> If so, I'm willing to see if I can use it ;
> if not, I would suggest it sb a top priority for dev's to write.

You don't *need* to know anything about git to update using it.

Just change your /etc/portage/repos.conf/gentoo.conf as Rich outlined
(and move away your rsync'd /usr/portage or wherever your portage tree
goes.)

Then when you emerge --sync (or emaint -A sync, etc.) it will sync via
git and emerge will work as always.

Now if you want to do more or just want to learn more about git then
that's different.

Todd

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Dale]

Todd Goodman wrote:
> * Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> [150828 18:35]:
>> 150828 Rich Freeman wrote:
>>> To really appreciate git you should understand git objects
>>> and their references, what a commit, tree, and blob are.
>>> Also, the whole copy-on-write concept and content-hashing concept.
>>> I used to think git looked really complicated until I sat
>>> through a  1 hr talk that focused mostly on the data model.
>>> Once you understand the data model, you understand everything.
>>> That doesn't take a lot of time.  It does take a moderate amount of time
>>> learning the right things.  They're not found in the manpages.
>>> Like I said, beautiful design, horrible interface.
>> So is there a Gentoo doc -- Wiki, presumably --
>> explaining to users -- users, not dev's or Git addicts --
>> the essentials of Git, so that they can readily update using it ?
>> If so, I'm willing to see if I can use it ;
>> if not, I would suggest it sb a top priority for dev's to write.
> You don't *need* to know anything about git to update using it.
>
> Just change your /etc/portage/repos.conf/gentoo.conf as Rich outlined
> (and move away your rsync'd /usr/portage or wherever your portage tree
> goes.)
>
> Then when you emerge --sync (or emaint -A sync, etc.) it will sync via
> git and emerge will work as always.
>
> Now if you want to do more or just want to learn more about git then
> that's different.
>
> Todd
>
>
>


I think what we are talking about is viewing things like the changelogs
and such, which are currently not synced with the tree.  Or did we
change to some other topic and I missed it?  I tracked back to Alan
Mackenzie's split of this thread
.
Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Fernando Rodriguez]

On Saturday, August 29, 2015 10:48:16 AM Dale wrote:
> Todd Goodman wrote:
> > * Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> [150828 18:35]:
> >> 150828 Rich Freeman wrote:
> >>> To really appreciate git you should understand git objects
> >>> and their references, what a commit, tree, and blob are.
> >>> Also, the whole copy-on-write concept and content-hashing concept.
> >>> I used to think git looked really complicated until I sat
> >>> through a  1 hr talk that focused mostly on the data model.
> >>> Once you understand the data model, you understand everything.
> >>> That doesn't take a lot of time.  It does take a moderate amount of time
> >>> learning the right things.  They're not found in the manpages.
> >>> Like I said, beautiful design, horrible interface.
> >> So is there a Gentoo doc -- Wiki, presumably --
> >> explaining to users -- users, not dev's or Git addicts --
> >> the essentials of Git, so that they can readily update using it ?
> >> If so, I'm willing to see if I can use it ;
> >> if not, I would suggest it sb a top priority for dev's to write.
> > You don't *need* to know anything about git to update using it.
> >
> > Just change your /etc/portage/repos.conf/gentoo.conf as Rich outlined
> > (and move away your rsync'd /usr/portage or wherever your portage tree
> > goes.)
> >
> > Then when you emerge --sync (or emaint -A sync, etc.) it will sync via
> > git and emerge will work as always.
> >
> > Now if you want to do more or just want to learn more about git then
> > that's different.
> >
> > Todd
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> I think what we are talking about is viewing things like the changelogs
> and such, which are currently not synced with the tree.  Or did we
> change to some other topic and I missed it?  I tracked back to Alan
> Mackenzie's split of this thread
> .
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-) 
> 

It's probably easier to do this:

# cd /usr/portage
# rm -r *
# git clone <repo-uri> .

Then do the repos.conf changes. That way you don't have to worry about portage 
doing a shallow clone. If you already did it then just unshallow it as Rich 
pointed. Then to view the logs just:

#cd /usr/portage/cat/pkg
#git log .

Then 'git show <first few digits of commit hash>' to view a commit diff. You can 
use git use dev-vcs/tig if you find it easier though I thought it was pretty 
useless so it only lasted about 10 secs. in my system.

So basicly the only change is that instead of:

# less ChangeLog (or whatever you use to read logs)

You'll do:

# git log .


-- 
Fernando Rodriguez

Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Fernando Rodriguez]

On Friday, August 28, 2015 2:24:37 PM Rich Freeman wrote:
> Those who wish to use git can do so, and I'd encourage people to try.
> It really does have a lot of advantages.  Oh, and it makes it really
> easy to contribute patches/etc (just edit whatever you want in
> /usr/portage and type git diff).

I wouldn't advise that on the portage tree because if you edit any files under 
version control git will refuse to pull new changes until you either commit 
the changes or undo them by checking out the file.

-- 
Fernando Rodriguez

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Rich Freeman]

On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Fernando Rodriguez
<frodriguez.developer@outlook.com> wrote:
> It's probably easier to do this:
>
> # cd /usr/portage
> # rm -r *
> # git clone <repo-uri> .

The only issue with this is that all the files end up being owned by
root.  I'd just create /usr/portage, chown portage:portage
/usr/portage, and then let emerge --sync take care of the rest.

To cut down on replies, I'm not sure what the emerge --sync behavior
is if you have changes in the tree.  I suspect that as long as they
don't conflict they'll still sync, but in general you shouldn't leave
uncommitted changes lying around /usr/portage.  It is just convenient
to be able to tweak packages, get them cleaned up, and then generate
patches.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Todd Goodman]

* Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> [150829 11:49]:
> Todd Goodman wrote:
> > * Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> [150828 18:35]:
> >> 150828 Rich Freeman wrote:
> >>> To really appreciate git you should understand git objects
> >>> and their references, what a commit, tree, and blob are.
> >>> Also, the whole copy-on-write concept and content-hashing concept.
> >>> I used to think git looked really complicated until I sat
> >>> through a  1 hr talk that focused mostly on the data model.
> >>> Once you understand the data model, you understand everything.
> >>> That doesn't take a lot of time.  It does take a moderate amount of time
> >>> learning the right things.  They're not found in the manpages.
> >>> Like I said, beautiful design, horrible interface.
> >> So is there a Gentoo doc -- Wiki, presumably --
> >> explaining to users -- users, not dev's or Git addicts --
> >> the essentials of Git, so that they can readily update using it ?
> >> If so, I'm willing to see if I can use it ;
> >> if not, I would suggest it sb a top priority for dev's to write.
> > You don't *need* to know anything about git to update using it.
> >
> > Just change your /etc/portage/repos.conf/gentoo.conf as Rich outlined
> > (and move away your rsync'd /usr/portage or wherever your portage tree
> > goes.)
> >
> > Then when you emerge --sync (or emaint -A sync, etc.) it will sync via
> > git and emerge will work as always.
> >
> > Now if you want to do more or just want to learn more about git then
> > that's different.
> >
> > Todd
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> I think what we are talking about is viewing things like the changelogs
> and such, which are currently not synced with the tree.  Or did we
> change to some other topic and I missed it?  I tracked back to Alan
> Mackenzie's split of this thread
> .
> Dale

That's fine.  I was addressing Philip wanting to update via git.

If you want more than just synching and emerge then learn the one or two
git commands you need.

As Rich said, just use git log and git diff if you want to see changes.

It's not hard, just different.

Todd

Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Todd Goodman]

* Fernando Rodriguez <frodriguez.developer@outlook.com> [150829 12:59]:
> On Friday, August 28, 2015 2:24:37 PM Rich Freeman wrote:
> > Those who wish to use git can do so, and I'd encourage people to try.
> > It really does have a lot of advantages.  Oh, and it makes it really
> > easy to contribute patches/etc (just edit whatever you want in
> > /usr/portage and type git diff).
> 
> I wouldn't advise that on the portage tree because if you edit any files under 
> version control git will refuse to pull new changes until you either commit 
> the changes or undo them by checking out the file.

It will still pull but you'll potentially have conflicts to resolve.

A bad idea in any case.

Todd

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Fernando Rodriguez]

On Saturday, August 29, 2015 2:19:23 PM Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Fernando Rodriguez
> <frodriguez.developer@outlook.com> wrote:
> > It's probably easier to do this:
> >
> > # cd /usr/portage
> > # rm -r *
> > # git clone <repo-uri> .
> 
> The only issue with this is that all the files end up being owned by
> root.  I'd just create /usr/portage, chown portage:portage
> /usr/portage, and then let emerge --sync take care of the rest.

That is true, I didn't think of that. However, emerge --sync must run as root 
because that's how I've done it for my local overlay and I just noticed that 
even my /usr/portage (I'm still using rsync) is owned by root:root with the 
exception of distfiles which is owned by root:portage. Probably because at one 
point it got corrupted after syncing and I copied it from a network machine. 
Fixing it now.

> To cut down on replies, I'm not sure what the emerge --sync behavior
> is if you have changes in the tree.  I suspect that as long as they
> don't conflict they'll still sync, but in general you shouldn't leave
> uncommitted changes lying around /usr/portage.  It is just convenient
> to be able to tweak packages, get them cleaned up, and then generate
> patches.

At least for overlays portage does a git pull. It may pull the changes from 
the server but it will not even try to merge them (it can't since there's no 
commit to merge) so it will tell you to either git checkout the file to discard 
the changes or commit them. Even if you do commit them I believe it will ask 
you for a merge commit message so it's not something that portage will do 
automatically. Best to create a testing branch for your changes and checkout 
the master branch before syncing again.

-- 
Fernando Rodriguez

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 12:35:35 -0400, Fernando Rodriguez wrote:

> So basicly the only change is that instead of:
> 
> # less ChangeLog (or whatever you use to read logs)
> 
> You'll do:
> 
> # git log .

Or if emerge is updated to use git too, instead of

emerge -l

you'll use

emerge -l

;-)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I thought I saw the light at the end of the tunnel...
but it was just some sod with a torch bringing me more work!

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Fernando Rodriguez]

On Saturday, August 29, 2015 9:53:10 PM Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 12:35:35 -0400, Fernando Rodriguez wrote:
> 
> > So basicly the only change is that instead of:
> > 
> > # less ChangeLog (or whatever you use to read logs)
> > 
> > You'll do:
> > 
> > # git log .
> 
> Or if emerge is updated to use git too, instead of
> 
> emerge -l
> 
> you'll use
> 
> emerge -l
> 
> ;-)

I didn't knew that one :)
But it doesn't seem to work even with rsync:

$ sudo emerge -lp portage

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild   R    ] sys-apps/portage-2.2.20.1 


What am I doing wrong? 

-- 
Fernando Rodriguez

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Fernando Rodriguez]

On Saturday, August 29, 2015 5:10:15 PM Fernando Rodriguez wrote:
> On Saturday, August 29, 2015 9:53:10 PM Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 12:35:35 -0400, Fernando Rodriguez wrote:
> > 
> > > So basicly the only change is that instead of:
> > > 
> > > # less ChangeLog (or whatever you use to read logs)
> > > 
> > > You'll do:
> > > 
> > > # git log .
> > 
> > Or if emerge is updated to use git too, instead of
> > 
> > emerge -l
> > 
> > you'll use
> > 
> > emerge -l
> > 
> > ;-)
> 
> I didn't knew that one :)
> But it doesn't seem to work even with rsync:
> 
> $ sudo emerge -lp portage
> 
> These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
> 
> Calculating dependencies... done!
> [ebuild   R    ] sys-apps/portage-2.2.20.1 
> 
> 
> What am I doing wrong? 

I guess because it's a rebuild and it only shows relevant changes?


-- 
Fernando Rodriguez

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Dale]

Fernando Rodriguez wrote:
> On Saturday, August 29, 2015 10:48:16 AM Dale wrote:
>> Todd Goodman wrote:
>>> * Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> [150828 18:35]:
>>>> 150828 Rich Freeman wrote:
>>>>> To really appreciate git you should understand git objects
>>>>> and their references, what a commit, tree, and blob are.
>>>>> Also, the whole copy-on-write concept and content-hashing concept.
>>>>> I used to think git looked really complicated until I sat
>>>>> through a  1 hr talk that focused mostly on the data model.
>>>>> Once you understand the data model, you understand everything.
>>>>> That doesn't take a lot of time.  It does take a moderate amount of time
>>>>> learning the right things.  They're not found in the manpages.
>>>>> Like I said, beautiful design, horrible interface.
>>>> So is there a Gentoo doc -- Wiki, presumably --
>>>> explaining to users -- users, not dev's or Git addicts --
>>>> the essentials of Git, so that they can readily update using it ?
>>>> If so, I'm willing to see if I can use it ;
>>>> if not, I would suggest it sb a top priority for dev's to write.
>>> You don't *need* to know anything about git to update using it.
>>>
>>> Just change your /etc/portage/repos.conf/gentoo.conf as Rich outlined
>>> (and move away your rsync'd /usr/portage or wherever your portage tree
>>> goes.)
>>>
>>> Then when you emerge --sync (or emaint -A sync, etc.) it will sync via
>>> git and emerge will work as always.
>>>
>>> Now if you want to do more or just want to learn more about git then
>>> that's different.
>>>
>>> Todd
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I think what we are talking about is viewing things like the changelogs
>> and such, which are currently not synced with the tree.  Or did we
>> change to some other topic and I missed it?  I tracked back to Alan
>> Mackenzie's split of this thread
>> .
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-) 
>>
> It's probably easier to do this:
>
> # cd /usr/portage
> # rm -r *
> # git clone <repo-uri> .
>
> Then do the repos.conf changes. That way you don't have to worry about portage 
> doing a shallow clone. If you already did it then just unshallow it as Rich 
> pointed. Then to view the logs just:
>
> #cd /usr/portage/cat/pkg
> #git log .
>
> Then 'git show <first few digits of commit hash>' to view a commit diff. You can 
> use git use dev-vcs/tig if you find it easier though I thought it was pretty 
> useless so it only lasted about 10 secs. in my system.
>
> So basicly the only change is that instead of:
>
> # less ChangeLog (or whatever you use to read logs)
>
> You'll do:
>
> # git log .
>
>


Actually, I use eix-sync to sync my tree.  However I do it, I want it
done within the usual setup and commands.  Given the bumps we've already
seen, I'm not wanting to change that just yet.  Let the devs work out
some of the kinks first. 

Oh, I use Kwrite to read the changelogs.  If I'm stuck in a console,
nano, head or cat works.  Well, it did in the past anyway.  May not now tho.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Dale]

Todd Goodman wrote:
> * Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> [150829 11:49]:
>> Todd Goodman wrote:
>>> * Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> [150828 18:35]:
>>>> 150828 Rich Freeman wrote:
>>>>> To really appreciate git you should understand git objects
>>>>> and their references, what a commit, tree, and blob are.
>>>>> Also, the whole copy-on-write concept and content-hashing concept.
>>>>> I used to think git looked really complicated until I sat
>>>>> through a  1 hr talk that focused mostly on the data model.
>>>>> Once you understand the data model, you understand everything.
>>>>> That doesn't take a lot of time.  It does take a moderate amount of time
>>>>> learning the right things.  They're not found in the manpages.
>>>>> Like I said, beautiful design, horrible interface.
>>>> So is there a Gentoo doc -- Wiki, presumably --
>>>> explaining to users -- users, not dev's or Git addicts --
>>>> the essentials of Git, so that they can readily update using it ?
>>>> If so, I'm willing to see if I can use it ;
>>>> if not, I would suggest it sb a top priority for dev's to write.
>>> You don't *need* to know anything about git to update using it.
>>>
>>> Just change your /etc/portage/repos.conf/gentoo.conf as Rich outlined
>>> (and move away your rsync'd /usr/portage or wherever your portage tree
>>> goes.)
>>>
>>> Then when you emerge --sync (or emaint -A sync, etc.) it will sync via
>>> git and emerge will work as always.
>>>
>>> Now if you want to do more or just want to learn more about git then
>>> that's different.
>>>
>>> Todd
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I think what we are talking about is viewing things like the changelogs
>> and such, which are currently not synced with the tree.  Or did we
>> change to some other topic and I missed it?  I tracked back to Alan
>> Mackenzie's split of this thread
>> .
>> Dale
> That's fine.  I was addressing Philip wanting to update via git.
>
> If you want more than just synching and emerge then learn the one or two
> git commands you need.
>
> As Rich said, just use git log and git diff if you want to see changes.
>
> It's not hard, just different.
>
> Todd
>
>


Oh I see now.  I was thinking he was talking about how to get the
changelogs.  It seems he was talking about the tree itself, I guess. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 17:17:29 -0400, Fernando Rodriguez wrote:

> > $ sudo emerge -lp portage
> > 
> > These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
> > 
> > Calculating dependencies... done!
> > [ebuild   R    ] sys-apps/portage-2.2.20.1 
> > 
> > 
> > What am I doing wrong?   
> 
> I guess because it's a rebuild and it only shows relevant changes?

Yes, it shows changelog entries since the installed version. I have a
cron script that syncs, does emerge -f @world and then emails me the
output from emerge -luDp @world.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Sure, we just route the main sensor through Data's cat.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Fernando Rodriguez]

On Saturday, August 29, 2015 6:13:30 PM Dale wrote:
> Fernando Rodriguez wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 29, 2015 10:48:16 AM Dale wrote:
> >> Todd Goodman wrote:
> >>> * Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> [150828 18:35]:
> >>>> 150828 Rich Freeman wrote:
> >>>>> To really appreciate git you should understand git objects
> >>>>> and their references, what a commit, tree, and blob are.
> >>>>> Also, the whole copy-on-write concept and content-hashing concept.
> >>>>> I used to think git looked really complicated until I sat
> >>>>> through a  1 hr talk that focused mostly on the data model.
> >>>>> Once you understand the data model, you understand everything.
> >>>>> That doesn't take a lot of time.  It does take a moderate amount of 
time
> >>>>> learning the right things.  They're not found in the manpages.
> >>>>> Like I said, beautiful design, horrible interface.
> >>>> So is there a Gentoo doc -- Wiki, presumably --
> >>>> explaining to users -- users, not dev's or Git addicts --
> >>>> the essentials of Git, so that they can readily update using it ?
> >>>> If so, I'm willing to see if I can use it ;
> >>>> if not, I would suggest it sb a top priority for dev's to write.
> >>> You don't *need* to know anything about git to update using it.
> >>>
> >>> Just change your /etc/portage/repos.conf/gentoo.conf as Rich outlined
> >>> (and move away your rsync'd /usr/portage or wherever your portage tree
> >>> goes.)
> >>>
> >>> Then when you emerge --sync (or emaint -A sync, etc.) it will sync via
> >>> git and emerge will work as always.
> >>>
> >>> Now if you want to do more or just want to learn more about git then
> >>> that's different.
> >>>
> >>> Todd
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> I think what we are talking about is viewing things like the changelogs
> >> and such, which are currently not synced with the tree.  Or did we
> >> change to some other topic and I missed it?  I tracked back to Alan
> >> Mackenzie's split of this thread
> >> .
> >> Dale
> >>
> >> :-)  :-) 
> >>
> > It's probably easier to do this:
> >
> > # cd /usr/portage
> > # rm -r *
> > # git clone <repo-uri> .
> >
> > Then do the repos.conf changes. That way you don't have to worry about 
portage 
> > doing a shallow clone. If you already did it then just unshallow it as 
Rich 
> > pointed. Then to view the logs just:
> >
> > #cd /usr/portage/cat/pkg
> > #git log .
> >
> > Then 'git show <first few digits of commit hash>' to view a commit diff. You 
can 
> > use git use dev-vcs/tig if you find it easier though I thought it was 
pretty 
> > useless so it only lasted about 10 secs. in my system.
> >
> > So basicly the only change is that instead of:
> >
> > # less ChangeLog (or whatever you use to read logs)
> >
> > You'll do:
> >
> > # git log .
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Actually, I use eix-sync to sync my tree.  However I do it, I want it
> done within the usual setup and commands.  Given the bumps we've already
> seen, I'm not wanting to change that just yet.  Let the devs work out
> some of the kinks first. 

I use eix-sync too, it just calls emerge --sync so it's the same. I'm not in a 
hurry to switch the main tree to git either. If they bring change logs to 
rsync I'll stick with it as long as it's supported. Git will just be more 
wasteful of disk space and has other potential problems that rsync doesn't. I 
think it's great of version control but not so much for this.

> Oh, I use Kwrite to read the changelogs.  If I'm stuck in a console,
> nano, head or cat works.  Well, it did in the past anyway.  May not now tho.
>
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-) 
> 

-- 
Fernando Rodriguez

Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Thomas Mueller]

> * Fernando Rodriguez <frodriguez.developer@outlook.com> [150829 12:59]:
> On Friday, August 28, 2015 2:24:37 PM Rich Freeman wrote:
> > Those who wish to use git can do so, and I'd encourage people to try.
> > It really does have a lot of advantages.  Oh, and it makes it really
> > easy to contribute patches/etc (just edit whatever you want in
> > /usr/portage and type git diff).
>
> I wouldn't advise that on the portage tree because if you edit any files under
> version control git will refuse to pull new changes until you either commit
> the changes or undo them by checking out the file.

It will still pull but you'll potentially have conflicts to resolve.

A bad idea in any case.

Todd

Now many repositories use git, and I need to know how to make changes to some files, hopefully a small number, but still be able to update with git.

I keep the modifications somewhere for safekeeping, as well as the originals, but would want to see the updated files straight before remaking my modifications.

I looked through man pages, git pull --rebase didn't work; I got error messages.  Should I do "git reset" or should I "git checkout" each modified file one-by-one before "git pull"?

There is a lot in git, learning git all the way through looks like a tall order.

Tom

Re: [gentoo-user] ncurses: reductio ad absurdum

[Fernando Rodriguez]

On Monday, August 31, 2015 12:50:04 AM Thomas Mueller wrote:
> 
> > * Fernando Rodriguez <frodriguez.developer@outlook.com> [150829 12:59]:
> > On Friday, August 28, 2015 2:24:37 PM Rich Freeman wrote:
> > > Those who wish to use git can do so, and I'd encourage people to try.
> > > It really does have a lot of advantages.  Oh, and it makes it really
> > > easy to contribute patches/etc (just edit whatever you want in
> > > /usr/portage and type git diff).
> >
> > I wouldn't advise that on the portage tree because if you edit any files 
under
> > version control git will refuse to pull new changes until you either 
commit
> > the changes or undo them by checking out the file.
> 
> It will still pull but you'll potentially have conflicts to resolve.
> 
> A bad idea in any case.
> 
> Todd
> 
> Now many repositories use git, and I need to know how to make changes to 
some files, hopefully a small number, but still be able to update with git.

The best way is to create a branch for your changes, just run:

# git checkout -b new-feature

And now you're on a branch named new-feature, do your changes, commit them, 
then checkout the master branch, do git pull and then merge your branch.


> I keep the modifications somewhere for safekeeping, as well as the originals, 
but would want to see the updated files straight before remaking my 
modifications.
> 
> I looked through man pages, git pull --rebase didn't work; I got error 
messages.  Should I do "git reset" or should I "git checkout" each modified file 
one-by-one before "git pull"?

If you commit your changes before doing the pull it will work in most cases. 
Without commiting them it will never work (unless the files have not been 
updated on the remote repo).

You can also stash them away with git stash, then pull, and then finally apply 
your changes with git stash apply. See git-stash(1). If you do git checkout 
you will loose your changes, that's why it requires to do it individually for 
each file. With a branch you can also use git checkout --patch <branch> <file> 
to apply the changes individually for each file so it comes in handy when 
there's merge conflicts.

> There is a lot in git, learning git all the way through looks like a tall 
order.

That's an understatement I think.

> Tom
> 
> 

-- 
Fernando Rodriguez