From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 867A31381FA for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2014 10:28:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 48750E0AA9; Wed, 4 Jun 2014 10:28:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-yh0-f49.google.com (mail-yh0-f49.google.com [209.85.213.49]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F4A5E09F4 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2014 10:28:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-yh0-f49.google.com with SMTP id c41so6181006yho.8 for ; Wed, 04 Jun 2014 03:28:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/vYa8gESgcHHhm6TMoPE/SVRjfxzRlDd/rZEJ3tlyP4=; b=j29pj633qTtAKProK4t7c0P1T09xACTwueoeHWL4faR588fqlnUSgpoRhgK1OkWiF8 Z/+XozLgw7Ln87GIPWsNp0kOCk8604mtxXxjvSfQkTkzPXuKn1cZjAnvavgaXq7ZioHT jwX5yaD92ePc3I86U4/4s4UBi0kdUQA1/90mxPpWjU6KH2Fq2vz5kQAFXHvfx1IMNR1F BoNaZJZ5KR6qEy1TNYFKmXZGKLCmX/CrWqy2FN/NhqB3Cc3D0RZIAtnim9i0eYftTjVk 45uwrIUwTOD24qT+TPy/xd6Cv0ERdpqmrV0LhL7Oa9gBYm2KIZDVvoouxawkkKRPJJcP 3QjA== X-Received: by 10.236.117.176 with SMTP id j36mr24864697yhh.120.1401877715324; Wed, 04 Jun 2014 03:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.11.12.102] (50-52-216-179.drr01.drhm.nc.frontiernet.net. [50.52.216.179]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id l12sm3186626yhj.1.2014.06.04.03.28.34 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Jun 2014 03:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <538EF4CA.3070805@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2014 06:28:26 -0400 From: Greg Woodbury User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Systemd upower References: <20140603161406.0400709b5f38540475ac4c1f@web.de> <6653474.aQqAYpAeto@wstn> <538DFC41.3080602@libertytrek.org> <538E783F.3040208@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Archives-Salt: 15253f91-57a4-4381-a291-6f54ae184e1f X-Archives-Hash: 7263a2b04372a771c1db320b21b2d60b On 06/03/2014 10:05 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: > On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 8:37 PM, Greg Woodbury wrote: > >> Sure, systemd is a more elegant solution than the patchworks that have >> been applied several times to the original SysV concept. > > Glad to see you recognize that. > >> However, the implementors and advocates of systemd have stepped on the >> concerns and violated certain basic freedoms of many folks in their zeal >> to see their vision become predominate. > > Oh FFS. What "freedoms" have you had "violated"? The "freedom" to > mandate what other developers should write, or what packages they can > use as hard dependencies? > > You never had that "freedom". That's the developer freedom; if you > want some of that, become a developer. I was a developer for more years than I really care to remember. I still try to contribute in ways and areas that I'm not so out-of-date with. Furthermore, it is a two-way street (as I see it.) The developers write things they find interesting and enjoyable to work on, and users use things that are interesting and work well. For many, seeing other folks use what they have written provides a significant measure of the enjoyment derived from the exercise. To see this as only freedom for the developer is part of an attitude shift over the years that only lessens the overall usefulness of Linux and FOSS. It does, in fact, push quite a few folk I know away from the Linux arena. It is, to use a political analogy, like the people who claim there "is not any real difference" between *any* opposing political movements -- that neglects taking into account a great deal of technical and historical details. I occasionally think about forking projects and fixing some of the things I think are the most egregious fsck-ups in some of them, but then I really look at what I'm doing and what I enjoy doing, and realize that I won't get enough (emotional?) reward for giving up time in other significant parts of my life. > Or help Samuli to maintain upower-pm-utils; that would be *much* more > helpful than spreding FUD about cabals and conspiracies. There is no need for me to invent Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt -- the folks involved are doing quite well on their own. Also, history (for those not doomed to repeat it [1]) provides all that is required to make calling it a "cabal" [TINC - there is no cabal![2]] There never was a Usenet Backbone Cabal in any formal sense, but there was plenty of semi-(un)coordinated activity -- based largely on shared ideals -- that gave that appearance. {I was there when Usenet/Netnews was invented, closely observing, making minor and not-so-minor contributions, and was responsible for some of the "cabal-like" activities.} The mere coinage of terms like "Lennertware," whether or not deserved, show that there is a widespread awareness that some developers, in my opinion, have over developed egos. [3] It is all so trite to say "become a developer and DO something instead of complaining" but it is not a realistic thing to say when the problems are getting so large and interconnected. Furthermore, it denigrates and devalues the "pseudo-democratic" processes that FOSS and Linux have worked for years to nurture. [1] Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. (paraphrase of George Santayana) [2] See, for starters: http://http://en.wikipedia.or/wiki/Backbone_cabal [3] All Gods have feet of clay. source uncertain. (perhaps a reference to "Ozymandias"? -- G.Wolfe Woodbury {once upon a time AKA ...!duke!ggw}