From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE7631387FD for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 00:28:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D3CDDE0AD1; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 00:28:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-wg0-f41.google.com (mail-wg0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7C11E0A8D for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 00:28:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-wg0-f41.google.com with SMTP id n12so781570wgh.24 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 17:28:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GkOIrlJkgXEf8HN4RUHu3tynsg4MuxyX/N/NFT/Ymf4=; b=vZ30l3UghHd6/FhYFdDiWRJKmJvAeumbnblenDI0u5UjwTiKlWh2AOmm8mRDQEltc2 SOsk7HD3kcQaw2Xuq6xhnzEDGy5FEuH+zYMz5fYVyJ66KtypkiDbewzI+x3F0yH0ku8q UXgWjIWrWjapG3YSAERb88EMOyRy+T+Mo9VNccyfbV6CrV+a68O/5nMXWvYU2a6p78dU mDPUJDdgmySZG7mcINioPwuImr7d94gpX4qkqy6R/wXK1CoKl+JoUPoMQED+plY8akGf gpJnZNKkuhkkC79pnKz9VLkKuSwWTVR9F6WPgB8SvqighT82v68vz1y/qSFVK+i746QT WKxw== X-Received: by 10.181.13.40 with SMTP id ev8mr27439479wid.0.1395793730135; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 17:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.20.0.40] (196-210-102-23.dynamic.isadsl.co.za. [196.210.102.23]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id h19sm12770184wiw.17.2014.03.25.17.28.48 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 25 Mar 2014 17:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <53321F29.8020702@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 02:28:25 +0200 From: Alan McKinnon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie References: <52FF84CE.2050301@libertytrek.org> <20140218210633.d25f4bb88b3891f7c0ed11c6@gmail.com> <20140218220712.9ec8d2529ef49d743b3bc826@gmail.com> <5304576E.4000704@sporkbox.us> <5304A5DE.4050905@libertytrek.org> <5305FACC.8080705@libertytrek.org> <20140221095351.4eaad30312847d36674777 01@gmail.com> <20140320210027.415320eb@gentoo.org> <20140321022711.16e7ec0c8f115a6927107669@gmail.com> <20140320221532.4 741e138@gentoo.org> <20140320164848.0c3448d3@sepulchrave.remarqs> <532C1660.2000809@libertytrek.org> <20140325150850.5fe9c8d5@sepulchrave.remarqs> <53320256.8000009@gmail.com> <20140325183450.78236ef8@sepulchrave.remarqs> In-Reply-To: <20140325183450.78236ef8@sepulchrave.remarqs> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Archives-Salt: 079e057f-006c-4976-a7b3-c51acc46f446 X-Archives-Hash: 6257189626ba9630af4f2cba8966fc2a On 26/03/2014 01:34, »Q« wrote: > On Wed, 26 Mar 2014 00:25:26 +0200 > Alan McKinnon wrote: > >> On 25/03/2014 22:08, »Q« wrote: >>> On Fri, 21 Mar 2014 06:37:20 -0400 >>> Tanstaafl wrote: >>> >>>> On 3/20/2014 5:48 PM, »Q« wrote: >>>>> Why should Gentoo have a default? >>>> >>>> Defaults are always a good idea - as long as they are reasonable >>>> and rational. >>> >>> In that case, Gentoo is missing a lot of "good" things, from a >>> default system logger to a default desktop environment. >>> >>> AFAICS, the benefit of defaults, provided they're reasonable, is >>> that they remove the burden of making choices from the user. But I >>> keep reading that Gentoo is all about user choice. >> >> You are conflating two things, it's actually quite disingenuous. >> >> Gentoo provides choice so you can do what you want. That doesn't >> preclude providing a default that suits people who see no need to make >> *that* choice for *them*, particularly when the thing being chosen is >> necessary or almost so. > > Of course it doesn't preclude that; I'm sorry if implied that it did. > >>>>> ISTM the only good reason is that not having a default would make >>>>> the documentation a lot more complicated. >>>> >>>> Documentation, *and* the install process itself. >>> >>> I'm not seeing that at all. >> >> You have to have *something* to be pid 1. the stage 3 might as well >> provide one of those somethings that suits the common case >> >> You can make it /bin/bash if you want, but that would be a very niche >> usage. The large majority of new installs will want a conventional >> init system whether SysVinit-based or systemd based. Traditionally >> SysVinit was the only real contender and baselayout/openerc were >> originally written for Gentoo. So those are still the defaults. >> >> Without a default, the user must set one up manually for things to >> work at all on first reboot. The install docs try hard to get the user >> through the necessary steps to get a bootable system, a lot of effort >> went into making the steps to accomplish that fewer, no more > > Requiring the fewest possible number of choices to get to a bootable > system is a much better argument for a default than "defaults are > always good". Yes, defaults make the most sense when you have virtuals, or when you must have 1 thing out of a range of things. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckinnon@gmail.com