From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B9E11391DB for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 22:26:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2B6E0E0AD3; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 22:25:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-we0-f180.google.com (mail-we0-f180.google.com [74.125.82.180]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00E48E0AC3 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 22:25:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-we0-f180.google.com with SMTP id p61so792736wes.39 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 15:25:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GvNNjtUKz14n8X7YKGXhBIJv/mLVGHTf64kdcN1LbNQ=; b=xyhrHjiflMSn+4jUoXco+1pyh9U1IPWMGU5nEpH4wGaqtdCk1cR7Iqlho/H5S7ZOOs nOhOwQm7Q8CPY1mLJHc3wEvpZHFXxvU59tStPREm723YvCYXpMpYfdjtG4wQ5Cg3QBW0 1H0fuOulqDrAFA3T27nEDrHoKlrlurpZuMZJF1ygjjSRuXpsQqlSbWHFt994vPFzfHXW 6YmoJ/0v+fZs/sstGzDLF9bQoeNBV3DirkE0cUeshx5P0WTrEVEZvoXsFNM/3le52HJF atHmCvaB0M6UI0iHhrLJ6OPBHajsgtuD7UYF9EwdwS+7vAdQxMlBtnRr79Pdgha8YmJz KLdA== X-Received: by 10.180.24.227 with SMTP id x3mr25183810wif.41.1395786352764; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 15:25:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.20.0.40] (196-210-102-23.dynamic.isadsl.co.za. [196.210.102.23]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id i9sm1908781wiy.17.2014.03.25.15.25.51 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 25 Mar 2014 15:25:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <53320256.8000009@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 00:25:26 +0200 From: Alan McKinnon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie References: <52FF84CE.2050301@libertytrek.org> <5302c048.462f0e0a.3d3e.5888@mx.google.com> <20140218210633.d25f4bb88b3891f7c0ed11c6@gmail.com> <20140218220712.9ec8d2529ef49d743b3bc826@gmail.com> <5304576E.4000704@sporkbox.us> <5304A5DE.4050905@libertytrek.org> <5305FACC.8080705@libertytrek.org> <20140221095351.4eaad30312847d36674777 01@gmail.com> <20140320210027.415320eb@gentoo.org> <20140321022711.16e7ec0c8f115a6927107669@gmail.com> <20140320221532.4741e138@gentoo.org> <20140320164848.0c3448d3@sepulchrave.remarqs> <532C1660.2000809@libertytrek.org> <20140325150850.5fe9c8d5@sepulchrave.remarqs> In-Reply-To: <20140325150850.5fe9c8d5@sepulchrave.remarqs> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Archives-Salt: f24a4f40-0cb9-47a0-ba3e-5d74e23cd95c X-Archives-Hash: 95a5603dc64f384b15fae5b884a5d917 On 25/03/2014 22:08, »Q« wrote: > On Fri, 21 Mar 2014 06:37:20 -0400 > Tanstaafl wrote: > >> On 3/20/2014 5:48 PM, »Q« wrote: >>> Why should Gentoo have a default? >> >> Defaults are always a good idea - as long as they are reasonable and >> rational. > > In that case, Gentoo is missing a lot of "good" things, from a default > system logger to a default desktop environment. > > AFAICS, the benefit of defaults, provided they're reasonable, is that > they remove the burden of making choices from the user. But I keep > reading that Gentoo is all about user choice. You are conflating two things, it's actually quite disingenuous. Gentoo provides choice so you can do what you want. That doesn't preclude providing a default that suits people who see no need to make *that* choice for *them*, particularly when the thing being chosen is necessary or almost so. > >>> ISTM the only good reason is that not having a default would make >>> the documentation a lot more complicated. >> >> Documentation, *and* the install process itself. > > I'm not seeing that at all. You have to have *something* to be pid 1. the stage 3 might as well provide one of those somethings that suits the common case You can make it /bin/bash if you want, but that would be a very niche usage. The large majority of new installs will want a conventional init system whether SysVinit-based or systemd based. Traditionally SysVinit was the only real contender and baselayout/openerc were originally written for Gentoo. So those are still the defaults. Without a default, the user must set one up manually for things to work at all on first reboot. The install docs try hard to get the user through the necessary steps to get a bootable system, a lot of effort went into making the steps to accomplish that fewer, no more -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckinnon@gmail.com