[gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***

[gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***

[Helmut Jarausch]

Please don't use this list for personal quarrels of any kind!

If someone says something you don't like - just ignore it/him.

If someone insults you, reply by personal mail only.

If someone says something which is *technically* wrong,
just correct the facts without getting personal.

Thanks,
Helmut.

Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***

[Dale]

Helmut Jarausch wrote:
> Please don't use this list for personal quarrels of any kind!
>
> If someone says something you don't like - just ignore it/him.
>
> If someone insults you, reply by personal mail only.
>
> If someone says something which is *technically* wrong,
> just correct the facts without getting personal.
>
> Thanks,
> Helmut.
>
>


I don't read every message but who is personally attacking someone?

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***

[Tanstaafl]

On 3/22/2014 5:06 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Helmut Jarausch wrote:
>> Please don't use this list for personal quarrels of any kind!
>>
>> If someone says something you don't like - just ignore it/him.
>>
>> If someone insults you, reply by personal mail only.
>>
>> If someone says something which is*technically*  wrong,
>> just correct the facts without getting personal.

> I don't read every message but who is personally attacking someone?

He's probably referring to my factual statement that Tom was/is acting 
like an arrogant prick.

Lots of people confuse factual statements with personal attacks.

That said, I've never been know for being tactful... ;)

Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***

[Tom Wijsman]

On Sat, 22 Mar 2014 10:48:46 -0400
Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@libertytrek.org> wrote:

> On 3/22/2014 5:06 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Helmut Jarausch wrote:
> >> Please don't use this list for personal quarrels of any kind!
> >>
> >> If someone says something you don't like - just ignore it/him.
> >>
> >> If someone insults you, reply by personal mail only.
> >>
> >> If someone says something which is*technically*  wrong,
> >> just correct the facts without getting personal.
> 
> > I don't read every message but who is personally attacking someone?
> 
> He's probably referring to my factual statement that Tom was/is
> acting like an arrogant prick.

This is technically wrong, we're all acting as arrogant pricks; but by
picking out a certain individual, this could be perceived as a personal
attack to that certain individual. However, that should not withhold
that this is just part of a factual statement.

This correction of mine also doesn't hold because if this could be
perceived as a personal attack against us all; then, to an extent,
perhaps we're all not acting as arrogant pricks. We are just
mis-perceiving things; and as a result of that, misunderstanding.

But maybe, under the 'profit motive', we could all be being arrogant?

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/272557/focus=272818

Sometimes, such 'profit motive's conflict, one man's profit is another
man's cost; this reminds me of how the real world works, if one
musician gets more fortune and fame, that goes at the cost of another.
However, is that musician therefore arrogant for earning lots of money?

Not necessarily; as you can see, a lot of these musicians spend excess
money on good causes (education centers, countries that had a natural
disaster, people with a costly to cure disease, the homeless, ...).

Now, you could ask, why doesn't that maybe arrogant musician send
everyone some money; well, it could cause maybe arrogant people to
benefit from the money without working for it. Well, both can be
perceived as being arrogant, or not being arrogant at all...

People's time and money is limited; so, it is better well spent.

This reminds me of John Covico's e-mail footer; it goes like this:

    "Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.
    The question is: How do you spend it?"

> Lots of people confuse factual statements with personal attacks.

As demonstrated above, the confusion is easily made.

> That said, I've never been know for being tactful... ;)

But what have you been known for? :)

-- 
With kind regards,

Tom Wijsman (TomWij)
Gentoo Developer

E-mail address  : TomWij@gentoo.org
GPG Public Key  : 6D34E57D
GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2  ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D

Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***

[Mateusz Kowalczyk]

On 22/03/14 14:48, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 3/22/2014 5:06 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Helmut Jarausch wrote:
>>> Please don't use this list for personal quarrels of any kind!
>>>
>>> If someone says something you don't like - just ignore it/him.
>>>
>>> If someone insults you, reply by personal mail only.
>>>
>>> If someone says something which is*technically*  wrong,
>>> just correct the facts without getting personal.
> 
>> I don't read every message but who is personally attacking someone?
> 
> He's probably referring to my factual statement that Tom was/is acting 
> like an arrogant prick.
> 
> Lots of people confuse factual statements with personal attacks.
> 
> That said, I've never been know for being tactful... ;)
> 

Go and solve this shit off-list. I'm not following the systemd thread
but over the last few days but your (plural) quarrels have become far
too big in number to ignore.

Create a separate thread if you need it so that people can ignore it
without missing actual on-topic messages.

-- 
Mateusz K.

Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***

[Dale]

Mateusz Kowalczyk wrote:
> On 22/03/14 14:48, Tanstaafl wrote:
>> On 3/22/2014 5:06 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Helmut Jarausch wrote:
>>>> Please don't use this list for personal quarrels of any kind!
>>>>
>>>> If someone says something you don't like - just ignore it/him.
>>>>
>>>> If someone insults you, reply by personal mail only.
>>>>
>>>> If someone says something which is*technically*  wrong,
>>>> just correct the facts without getting personal.
>>> I don't read every message but who is personally attacking someone?
>> He's probably referring to my factual statement that Tom was/is acting 
>> like an arrogant prick.
>>
>> Lots of people confuse factual statements with personal attacks.
>>
>> That said, I've never been know for being tactful... ;)
>>
> Go and solve this shit off-list. I'm not following the systemd thread
> but over the last few days but your (plural) quarrels have become far
> too big in number to ignore.
>
> Create a separate thread if you need it so that people can ignore it
> without missing actual on-topic messages.
>

Will, since Tom finally got the point and changed his email program to
not CC his replies, it seems to me that Tanstaaf, others and myself were
right.  It may have been off topic but if Tom would have just listened
in the beginning, there wouldn't have to be so many off topic replies. 

Just saying.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***

[Tom Wijsman]

On Sat, 22 Mar 2014 12:29:20 -0500
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> Will, since Tom finally got the point and changed his email program to
> not CC his replies, it seems to me that Tanstaaf, others and myself
> were right.

It is based on preventing those off-topic replies from being made. I'm
still very convinced about my viewpoint; I only not CC on this ML
because of those off-topic replies, at the cost of a guarantee.

> It may have been off topic but if Tom would have just listened in the
> beginning, there wouldn't have to be so many off topic replies. 

Such replies could be made off-list; that way, the topic can remain.

-- 
With kind regards,

Tom Wijsman (TomWij)
Gentoo Developer

E-mail address  : TomWij@gentoo.org
GPG Public Key  : 6D34E57D
GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2  ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D

Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***

[Bruce Hill]

On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 12:29:20PM -0500, Dale wrote:
> Mateusz Kowalczyk wrote:
> > On 22/03/14 14:48, Tanstaafl wrote:
> >> On 3/22/2014 5:06 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Helmut Jarausch wrote:
> >>>> Please don't use this list for personal quarrels of any kind!
> >>>>
> >>>> If someone says something you don't like - just ignore it/him.
> >>>>
> >>>> If someone insults you, reply by personal mail only.
> >>>>
> >>>> If someone says something which is*technically*  wrong,
> >>>> just correct the facts without getting personal.
> >>> I don't read every message but who is personally attacking someone?
> >> He's probably referring to my factual statement that Tom was/is acting 
> >> like an arrogant prick.
> >>
> >> Lots of people confuse factual statements with personal attacks.
> >>
> >> That said, I've never been know for being tactful... ;)
> >>
> > Go and solve this shit off-list. I'm not following the systemd thread
> > but over the last few days but your (plural) quarrels have become far
> > too big in number to ignore.
> >
> > Create a separate thread if you need it so that people can ignore it
> > without missing actual on-topic messages.
> >
> 
> Will, since Tom finally got the point and changed his email program to
> not CC his replies, it seems to me that Tanstaaf, others and myself were
> right.  It may have been off topic but if Tom would have just listened
> in the beginning, there wouldn't have to be so many off topic replies. 
> 
> Just saying.
> 
> Dale

I can't quite believe Tom did that. I've even stopped replying to any thread
Tom participates in, because when I kindly asked him to "Stop Cc'ing me" (as
old and rude a habit as HTML email and top-posting), he wasted my time with
more than one arrogant reply, beating the dead horse(s) about why his way is
correct and the rest of the world needs to change it's preferences to get in
line. It's my sincere hope that someone's persistence hammered some common
sense and email etiquette into his attitude.

In fact, this list is so generally useless and filled with immature jerks
going on senselessly about crap that I rarely read it anymore, and ^D is my
largest function on this mailbox.
-- 
List replies preferred.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***

[Tom Wijsman]

On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 04:52:47 -0500
Bruce Hill <daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:

> It's my sincere hope that someone's persistence hammered some common
> sense and email etiquette into his attitude.

Other Gentoo Developers did; but, I'll make an exception for this list.

"The mailing list etiquette requires people to CC all the people
involved in a particular thread in replies to the mailing list, in case
any of them is not subscribed."

— http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Procmail

-- 
With kind regards,

Tom Wijsman (TomWij)
Gentoo Developer

E-mail address  : TomWij@gentoo.org
GPG Public Key  : 6D34E57D
GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2  ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D

Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***

[Alan McKinnon]

On 23/03/2014 12:11, Tom Wijsman wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 04:52:47 -0500
> Bruce Hill <daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:
> 
>> It's my sincere hope that someone's persistence hammered some common
>> sense and email etiquette into his attitude.
> 
> Other Gentoo Developers did; but, I'll make an exception for this list.
> 
> "The mailing list etiquette requires people to CC all the people
> involved in a particular thread in replies to the mailing list, in case
> any of them is not subscribed."
> 
> — http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Procmail
> 


And you have been told repeatedly that the actual real life users on
this actual real life list would like you to stop doing it. We didn't
write that FAQ, I fail to see how it applies and this is not -dev, not
does QA play any role in this.

Now please learn to play by the rules and expectations of the existing
users of a community you have joined newly. If the doc is so important
to you, please update it with an exception for -user and state this is
the general consensus of that list.

Then please learn how to back down and gracefully accept the wishes of
others. You have no special rights here.


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***

[Markos Chandras]

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Hash: SHA512

On 03/23/2014 04:06 PM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 23/03/2014 12:11, Tom Wijsman wrote:
>> On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 04:52:47 -0500 Bruce Hill
>> <daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> It's my sincere hope that someone's persistence hammered some
>>> common sense and email etiquette into his attitude.
>> 
>> Other Gentoo Developers did; but, I'll make an exception for this
>> list.
>> 
>> "The mailing list etiquette requires people to CC all the people 
>> involved in a particular thread in replies to the mailing list,
>> in case any of them is not subscribed."
>> 
>> — http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Procmail
>> 
> 
> 
> And you have been told repeatedly that the actual real life users
> on this actual real life list would like you to stop doing it. We
> didn't write that FAQ, I fail to see how it applies and this is not
> -dev, not does QA play any role in this.
> 
> Now please learn to play by the rules and expectations of the
> existing users of a community you have joined newly. If the doc is
> so important to you, please update it with an exception for -user
> and state this is the general consensus of that list.
> 
> Then please learn how to back down and gracefully accept the wishes
> of others. You have no special rights here.
> 
> 

I think this thread has gone a bit off-topic. Just a reminder, Gentoo
has a special team[1] designed for developers and *users* to contact
if someone does not play by the rules. Please consider contacting this
team if reaching an agreement is not possible, instead of using the
list for arguments, conflicts etc.

[1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:ComRel

- -- 
Regards,
Markos Chandras
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Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 16:31:58 +0000, Markos Chandras wrote:

> I think this thread has gone a bit off-topic. Just a reminder, Gentoo
> has a special team[1] designed for developers and *users* to contact
> if someone does not play by the rules. Please consider contacting this
> team if reaching an agreement is not possible, instead of using the
> list for arguments, conflicts etc.

While this is a valid point, Tom has already started to abide by the
preferred habits of this list, so there is nothing to argue about (not
that that stops some people).

CCed to Markos because he may not read the list regularly.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

If you give a man a fish, he's fed for a day.
If you teach a man to fish, he'll buy a silly hat.
If you talk about fish to a starving man, you're a consultant.

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Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***

[Tom Wijsman]

On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 18:06:12 +0200
Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> And you have been told repeatedly that the actual real life users on
> this actual real life list would like you to stop doing it. We didn't
> write that FAQ, I fail to see how it applies and this is not -dev, not
> does QA play any role in this.

The etiquette was perceived to apply anywhere for Gentoo Developers; as
you can see, this perception conflicts when coming across different
expectations, and therefore the exception has been made.

This isn't the first time this difference comes up; a former Gentoo
Developer, Ciaran, has had a similar moment[1] on this mailing list
about 10 years ago with different people around at a point of time
where this appears to not have been a strict rule on this mailing list.

 [1]: "[gentoo-user] Mailing List etiquette FAQ" @ Google Groups
 https://groups.google.com/d/msg/linux.gentoo.user/2-Zv19Ggyus/is5ug9mcCcwJ


> Now please learn to play by the rules and expectations of the existing
> users of a community you have joined newly.

The rules and expectations were perceived per etiquette; there's no
other place where I can see them listed for the gentoo-user ML in
specific, therefore I cannot assume one or two individuals to speak the
truth about those rules. Perhaps we can start such a list of rules?

It gets odd if they conflict with what Gentoo Developers are expected to
do per the etiquette, you can see I need to be careful with what I do;
therefore I've continued to do what a Gentoo Developer is expected to.

That's why I was only convinced at the point that a lot more than those
two individuals made this request; at that point, it becomes clear that
this is a majority rather than those two individuals that asked me.

> If the doc is so important to you, please update it with an exception
> for -user and state this is the general consensus of that list.

Done.

> Then please learn how to back down and gracefully accept the wishes of
> others. You have no special rights here.

As per more users, that was done; I always intend to follow the rules.

Sorry; I hope you see where this approach came from, I'm not trying to
override a majority or intentionally act different than the community.

Sorry again; thank you for your understanding.

PS: To make it clear that I stopped: The last 15 mails were without CC.

-- 
With kind regards,

Tom Wijsman (TomWij)
Gentoo Developer

E-mail address  : TomWij@gentoo.org
GPG Public Key  : 6D34E57D
GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2  ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D

Re: [gentoo-user] *** STOP misuing this list for personal attacks ***

[Tanstaafl]

On 3/23/2014 12:06 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 23/03/2014 12:11, Tom Wijsman wrote:
>> On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 04:52:47 -0500
>> Bruce Hill <daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It's my sincere hope that someone's persistence hammered some common
>>> sense and email etiquette into his attitude.
>>
>> Other Gentoo Developers did; but, I'll make an exception for this list.
>>
>> "The mailing list etiquette requires people to CC all the people
>> involved in a particular thread in replies to the mailing list, in case
>> any of them is not subscribed."
>>
>> — http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Procmail

Whoah.

That page is in serious need of updating.

Unless - do most of the gentoo lists allow posts from non-subscribers? 
If so, then maybe THAT policy needs to be changed. I see ZERO reason to 
allow that, *especially* on official dev lists, where people should be 
expected to know how to use Reply-To-List and/or request direct CC's 
when needed.