From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67C33138EC0 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 10:38:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D5823E0B5C; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 10:38:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from forward3l.mail.yandex.net (forward3l.mail.yandex.net [84.201.143.136]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E84BE0B48 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 10:38:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp4h.mail.yandex.net (smtp4h.mail.yandex.net [84.201.186.21]) by forward3l.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 3DBC31500CC4 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 14:38:29 +0400 (MSK) Received: from smtp4h.mail.yandex.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp4h.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id B469D2C348A for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 14:38:28 +0400 (MSK) Received: from 31.207.77.120.static.pushkinnet.ru (31.207.77.120.static.pushkinnet.ru [31.207.77.120]) by smtp4h.mail.yandex.net (nwsmtp/Yandex) with ESMTPSA id ozf4T51RQN-cSJ0LmgS; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 14:38:28 +0400 (using TLSv1 with cipher CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client certificate not present) X-Yandex-Uniq: 774f505a-cd12-4195-bd19-5b9b1dc1979f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.ru; s=mail; t=1393065508; bh=Lsr3emAS64bYhq0LcNchyw012/KuUvobJooqUieMa6Y=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject: References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=SwwsxGhf2syCZLlcfM52w+EUty5w8XiLwtwsAUvm52aC723eWVZh0ndK5p8tBycXX 8w8KGDMdE94lmPBQ283KrSxtebp2AGBH5duw1Zyq4+qeK6XjJs2t49RiblRFWytQiX aMT6F92BI4fCfJqNtm+a9WSP2yLBEzafr7DLyj4c= Authentication-Results: smtp4h.mail.yandex.net; dkim=pass header.i=@yandex.ru Message-ID: <53087E26.6010905@yandex.ru> Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 14:38:30 +0400 From: "Yuri K. Shatroff" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie References: <52FF84CE.2050301@libertytrek.org> <5300DD51.5060207@libertytrek.org> <53010A8E.2050909@googlemail.com> <53012691.6040503@googlemail.com> <20140217215255.5766cb026df2f0b8002f8702@gmail.com> <20140218203656.abace1d77731d845bec62c62@gmail.com> <4ba5b05280a16043f9898e32b68049a7.squirrel@www.antarean.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archives-Salt: 9e7a465f-057f-4532-8195-4161c0293e8e X-Archives-Hash: f0d8f4b9cd55f3ec18ca99c2c51240e2 On 22.02.2014 11:40, Mark David Dumlao wrote: > [ ... ] > Even as the complex beast it has become systemd is still simpler than the > alternative of having abominations of unreliable shell scripts checking to see > which version of grep and sed is used to split the command line, or whether > the system uses tempfile or mktemp, or depending on perl. Well, simpler yeah, supporting only one kernel of specific versions is always simpler than trying to support everything from SunOS to NetBSD. This way, if the kernel supported only e.g. Intel IvyBridge+ with one chipset family, one graphics (VESA) and so on, it would have been incredibly simpler. Or probably is it systemd that checks "whether the system uses tempfile or mktemp"? Or having a new own (NIH) unit config format parser is simpler than taking one of thousands of existing ones? It is simpler for you end user. (Though dubious for users who wield shell scripts and perl.) But when it comes to reliability it's entirely wrong. I can fix a faulty shell script without having to wait for a new release. Or I can even write mine own. Can you fix systemd? > ergo libreoffice. A follower of the MS-maintained strategy "one black box that does everything". I always wonder what does e.g. Excel/Calc/spreadsheed need font decorations for? Or 1+2 is different from *1*+/2/? ;) > desktop environments. A good DE design is just a collection of separate tools doing different things, united by some graphical design. > firefox. An example of how an app once followed a non-Unix way is now failing to get back to the Unix way. And its reliability is somewhere near zero. Though, it's almost impossible now to make a simple browser which would also be cross-platform and popular. There's a holy bible of standards and quirks to support, and yet more in the development phase, for the end user to be happy. It's completely different from an init system, even all the init systems of all Unixes altogether. > databases. What's wrong with them? Mostly, characteristic examples of the Unix way. > Heck much of > what's being said about systemd applies to postfix - there's no general case > reason for me to grab some random postfix component and use it for everyday > work, therefore postfix is just some closed-source monolithic virus, right? So now that there's a working postfix which is an example of a non-Unix way design, it's justified to use this approach everywhere else? -- Best wishes, Yuri K. Shatroff