From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 126B4138E35 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 22:44:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A8A24E0BE2; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 22:44:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-wg0-f54.google.com (mail-wg0-f54.google.com [74.125.82.54]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65A00E0BB3 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 22:44:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-wg0-f54.google.com with SMTP id l18so3735118wgh.21 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 14:44:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9TmVc0U+Xk6JWhXJyrdBK1ADPR3AuwubKrRQA5wKcM0=; b=AVHjQsRo0EJi6M7J9kTFqT0oizTATjH36Lx2MnZpjGalYECMELgrpmWo2geThWsaKH NaJfgd5yvaQIfrU0J2HBdoimc63XCR8faP/MLCY8nixgaZp5vFHUvfV4VozYZAqfWIs9 er7pGd3Jd7PSdUhDhMZeKfVPKgkZnjamTRrILZsyoF2QiYFefL3k48SF4sksCvfJybQi Nnb1Ll/UWBApaprlN1PyPrAj3bAO0jN2SNxnRGrXgdibroFUAwROwFytY9DUz8upP8Ld imDb8goxrtM7IK7liRqLVIe4iIQVHKQRGsLKvvRd+61dcC3wKxb4UkQ0jp7oU/9pG1/3 f1ag== X-Received: by 10.194.236.9 with SMTP id uq9mr24922759wjc.31.1392763453213; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 14:44:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.20.0.40] (196-210-102-21.dynamic.isadsl.co.za. [196.210.102.21]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ha1sm48933040wjc.23.2014.02.18.14.44.12 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Feb 2014 14:44:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <5303E22D.2080205@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 00:43:57 +0200 From: Alan McKinnon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie References: <52FF84CE.2050301@libertytrek.org> <52FF9D58.3000608@libertytrek.org> <201402152023.10543.michaelkintzios@gmail.com> <5300DD51.5060207@libertytrek.org> <5300EA3A.5020801@gmail.com> <24165346-F62B-4CD4-BB43-0D5A68BE0004@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> <530268AE.3050603@gmail.com> <53032C35.3060307@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archives-Salt: 0024cff1-575e-4891-bd5f-1b089d8784a3 X-Archives-Hash: 88532a4e8bd2344f119872ff0914692e On 18/02/2014 13:54, Mark David Dumlao wrote: >> Shouldn't sysadmins use the init-scripts for that? >> > If done correctly, permissions should not be an issue. >> > >> > Restarting services without keeping file ownership into account will >> > always cause issues. Regardless of the init-system used. >> > > That's just the thing though. As a sysadmin, how do you debug a service > that isn't starting to begin with? Let's say your new to the service. You're > not even sure if you got the config right the first time around. Or maybe > you're adjusting a setting somewhere, and you're confused why it > isn't taking effect. > > All the /upstream documentation/, all the /man pages/, all the /usr/share/doc > stuff will tell you to start it _raw_. The init script obscures the > starting options, > environment variables, and sometimes even the running user from you. What are > you gonna do, play a human shell script parser? Nobody's perfect, do it > enough times and you're going to casually gloss over the line where > --safe-mode is appended to the string depending on the phase of > the moon... I do all of that, I've been around long enough to have learned. Like yourself. ps and tailing a daemon's log file is my standard approach to really verify that a daemon is running. The other side of the coin is I usually start with the distro's init scripts and assume for argument sake they work. When the facts prove that wrong, I dig deeper. The list of daemons I use that are not well behaved wrt init scripts are rather short in reality > If you're lucky, you've never had to start an unfamiliar service, or debug > someone else's unfamiliar config under time pressure... > Nope, not so lucky. Not even close. We're getting OT, but by far the worst behaved daemons out there are non-OSS paid-for things for a corproate market. Like Ossec. Oracle databases. Sybase. Anything and everythign that purports to do backups. I shan't mention Oracle's various offerings for business use for fear my brain shall explode. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckinnon@gmail.com