From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A29A138BF3 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 12:18:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DD76FE0A8A; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 12:18:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from homiemail-a79.g.dreamhost.com (caibbdcaacbg.dreamhost.com [208.113.200.216]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0E99E0A76 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 12:18:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from homiemail-a79.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a79.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14EA0348003 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 04:18:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=libertytrek.org; h= message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= libertytrek.org; bh=SmYzer7+xcUrLejAu1iXLHW3FAQ=; b=uIvalXmtbrmC 65YSIfWl7K4N6D9HM+jD9kzIW5XqLZrPVoq84jJ01fh/6HqHSi/Fgyy8EnzPFPcq vWyhpJcjujW6FgGtRfRheYIXpqdPJC/qcpX01KoImk1laTs38dIGgAhrLecf0iyP a9J1SBK1drXePT479J/ir5C3nN2rDVY= Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [159.63.145.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: tanstaafl@libertytrek.org) by homiemail-a79.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EBCEE348002 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 04:18:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <5301FDF0.6000408@libertytrek.org> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 07:17:52 -0500 From: Tanstaafl User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie References: <52FF84CE.2050301@libertytrek.org> <53010ADB.2070708@yandex.ru> <201402161926.17796.michaelkintzios@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: b46ac64b-a900-4b75-b409-4b0e9f4ed31b X-Archives-Hash: c6b3fbd6b27d3d9129b23d77d5867403 Thanks to all who chimed in... On 2014-02-16 3:27 PM, Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s w= rote: > On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 1:26 PM, Mick wrote= : > [snip] >> You may have lost it in the link that Volker posted (thanks Volker), b= ut this >> comment from HaakonKL probably sums it up: >> >> "... I will give Upstart this though: Should something better come alo= ng, you >> could replace upstart. I guess this holds true for OpenRC as well. >> >> You can't say that about systemd." > I had read that blog entry before. Is full of errors, like believing > that everything that systemd does is inside PID 1. Maybe it is 'full of errors', but is the primary point true? > There is actually little code inside PID 1; The quoted text said nothing about this, so please stay on point. As to the point raised: >> Can you surgically remove systemd in the future without reverse engine= ering >> half of what the LSB would look at the time, or will its developers en= sure >> that this is a one time choice only? > You guys talk about software like if it was a big bad black magical > box with inexplicable powers. > > If someone is willing and able, *everything* can be "surgically > remove[d]". We got rid of devfs, remember? We got rid of OSS (thank > the FSM for ALSA). We got rid of HAL (yuck!). GNOME got rid of bonobo, > and ESD. KDE got rid of aRts (and who knows what more). I think you are being a little disingenuous here. The obvious unspoken meaning behind the 'can you surgically remove' was: Can you do it *easily*? I'm sure you would not suggest that getting rid=20 of the above were 'easy'? It simply doesn't matter if systemd boils down to one monolithic binary,=20 or 600, if they are tied together in such a way that they can not=20 *individually* be replaced *easily and simply* (ie, without having to=20 rewrite the whole of systemd). That said, it seems to me that, for now at least, it isn't that big a=20 deal to switch back and forth between systemd and, for example, OpenRC. So my main concern is - will it still be possible - *and* easy - in a=20 year? Three years? Five? If the answer to *any* of those is no, then I=20 think the best solution - for gentoo at least - is to make whether or=20 not systemd is to be used more like a *profile* choice - a decision that=20 you can make at install time, similar to choosing between hardened or=20 not (not easy/simple to switch to/from after a system is up and running). In fact, it seems to me that, since (from what I've read) the primary=20 reason that systemd was written in the first place was to provide=20 extremely fast boots *in virtualized environments*, having it be a=20 choice made by selecting a corresponding *profile* is the *ideal*=20 solution - at least for gentoo. At least this way everything could be=20 documented, and switching between a systemd and non-systemd profile can=20 be supported for as long as possible, understanding that at some point=20 in time it may have to become an install time choice - kind of like=20 choosing between hardened or not is mostly an install time choice now.