From: Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>
To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] separate / and /usr to require initramfs 2013-11-01
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2013 21:30:12 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <52487FC4.5060304@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <52481602.6020305@googlemail.com>
On 29/09/2013 13:58, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am 29.09.2013 13:03, schrieb Greg Woodbury:
>> On 09/29/2013 06:55 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>
>>> why do you bring up udev and systemd AT ALL?
>>>
>>> They are not the problem or the reason why seperate /usr is prone to
>>> break.
>>>
>> Except that systemd *is* why a seperate /usr is broken now.
>> Parts of the libraries that systemd depend on we *deliberately* placed
>> in /usr despite the fact that they are needed to bbring the system to
>> an operational state. For *years* things required to boot the system
>> were defined to be in the root file system, and items not required
>> until after mounting had been accomplished were to be placed in /usr.
>>
>> BTW: There is a standard (The File System Hierarch Standard - FSS)
>> that existed and described this behaviour. It was killed off by
>> deliberate vendor refusals to support or adhere to it. In
>> frustration, the folks involved simply gave up.
>>
>
> things were broken way before that. As much as I hate systemd, it is not
> the root cause of the problem.
>
> The problems were caused by people saying that seperate /usr was a good
> idea, so / would not fill up and similar idiocies. The problems were
> caused by people saying that lvm is a good idea - for desktops. Those
> people who are fighting against the kernel auto assembling raids are to
> blame too.
>
> Systemd is just another point in a very long list.
Volker, we agree.
The problem as I see it is that we have an artificial, arbitrary
separation between "boot time" stuff and "something that happens later"
stuff. There is no clear definition of what these things are and the
only real technical criteria advanced thus far is quoted above: "after
mounting had been accomplished"
That worked in the 80s when SysV came out. But times move on, new
methods and hardware were developed and computing is now a very
different beast to what it was 30 years ago. Nowadays we have a boatload
of actions that can/may be needed to happen before fstab can be read to
mount the rest of the system.
/usr has become, whether we like it or not, an indespensable part of the
userland start up process, and the only way out of this is to have some
guarantees in place. We already have a perfectly good one - the root
file system is guaranteed to be mounted by the kernel before init is
called. If that filesystem does not contain /usr then a rather
sophisticated hack is available to ensure that /usr is available, and it
is an initramfs.
I do beleive the choice really is that clear - provide that guarantee or
be stuck forever with old code, hardware and methods. Just because SysV
worked well for ages does not mean it's rules must persist through time.
Everything changes in this worls, and our game changes faster than most
other things. Let's not cling to sacred cows when the world has
observably moved on.
None of this means I think systemd is good (or bad). Maybe it's
over-engineered, but at least someone has the balls to stand up and try
deal with the actual problem.
--
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2013-09-29 19:35 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 262+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2013-09-27 22:21 [gentoo-user] separate / and /usr to require initramfs 2013-11-01 Bruce Hill
2013-09-27 22:33 ` Dale
2013-09-27 22:39 ` Bruce Hill
2013-09-27 22:57 ` Dale
2013-09-27 23:10 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-27 23:47 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-28 0:39 ` David W Noon
2013-09-28 8:30 ` Mick
2013-09-28 8:42 ` Dale
2013-09-28 12:30 ` Bruce Hill
2013-09-28 12:49 ` David W Noon
2013-09-28 12:54 ` Bruce Hill
2013-09-29 14:20 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 14:57 ` Bruce Hill
2013-09-29 17:24 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 17:41 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2013-09-29 18:02 ` Bruce Hill
2013-09-29 18:29 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-28 11:32 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-28 13:15 ` Michael Hampicke
2013-09-28 15:06 ` Dale
2013-09-28 16:54 ` Mick
2013-09-28 17:49 ` Michael Hampicke
2013-09-28 18:18 ` Dale
2013-09-28 22:46 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 14:49 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 15:24 ` Dale
2013-09-29 17:37 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 18:25 ` Dale
2013-09-29 18:45 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 21:23 ` Walter Dnes
2013-09-29 21:32 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 21:33 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 23:05 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 21:35 ` Dale
2013-09-29 22:58 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 23:27 ` Dale
2013-09-30 17:10 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-30 17:25 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-30 17:42 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-30 19:10 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-30 20:47 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-01 3:36 ` Bruce Hill
2013-10-01 7:37 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-30 20:48 ` Dale
2013-09-30 21:04 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-10-01 1:43 ` Dale
2013-09-29 23:19 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 23:34 ` Dale
2013-09-30 8:09 ` Joost Roeleveld
2013-09-29 18:45 ` Bruce Hill
2013-09-30 16:38 ` Dan Johansson
2013-09-30 18:09 ` Mark David Dumlao
2013-09-30 20:08 ` Dan Johansson
2013-09-30 20:50 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 15:41 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2013-09-29 20:17 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 14:30 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-28 14:04 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-28 18:11 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-28 19:50 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-28 22:51 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 14:55 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 17:55 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 20:28 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 23:31 ` Daniel Campbell
2013-09-29 23:57 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-30 10:01 ` Hinnerk van Bruinehsen
2013-09-30 10:22 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-02 23:28 ` [gentoo-user] " Jonathan Callen
2013-09-30 9:31 ` [gentoo-user] " Alan McKinnon
2013-09-30 10:27 ` Daniel Campbell
2013-09-30 10:28 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-28 0:32 ` Bruce Hill
2013-09-28 16:01 ` William Hubbs
2013-09-28 17:31 ` Dale
2013-09-28 19:53 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-28 22:15 ` Dale
2013-09-28 22:46 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-28 23:09 ` Dale
2013-09-29 5:29 ` Walter Dnes
2013-09-29 8:25 ` Mick
2013-09-29 8:28 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 10:55 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-29 11:03 ` Greg Woodbury
2013-09-29 11:58 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-29 15:12 ` Flexibility and robustness in the Linux organisim (was: [gentoo-user] separate / and /usr to require initramfs 2013-11-01) Greg Woodbury
2013-09-29 15:22 ` Alon Bar-Lev
2013-09-29 16:03 ` [gentoo-user] Re: Flexibility and robustness in the Linux organisim Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-29 16:33 ` Dale
2013-09-29 19:42 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 21:41 ` Dale
2013-09-29 22:04 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-30 6:31 ` pk
2013-09-30 7:32 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-30 19:40 ` pk
2013-09-30 21:05 ` Walter Dnes
2013-09-30 22:37 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-11 8:16 ` [gentoo-user] " Steven J. Long
2013-10-11 8:44 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-11 14:44 ` Mark David Dumlao
2013-10-01 19:22 ` [gentoo-user] " Mark David Dumlao
2013-10-01 19:28 ` Mark David Dumlao
2013-10-11 7:54 ` [gentoo-user] " Steven J. Long
2013-10-11 7:50 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-10-11 11:22 ` [gentoo-user] " Steven J. Long
2013-09-29 16:41 ` [gentoo-user] " Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera (klondike)
2013-09-29 22:47 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-30 23:21 ` Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera (klondike)
2013-10-01 5:11 ` Mark David Dumlao
2013-10-01 5:14 ` Mark David Dumlao
2013-10-01 16:35 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-10-11 8:28 ` [gentoo-user] " Steven J. Long
2013-10-11 15:50 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-29 17:54 ` [gentoo-user] " Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 19:30 ` Alan McKinnon [this message]
2013-10-08 0:03 ` [gentoo-user] Re: separate / and /usr to require initramfs 2013-11-01 walt
2013-10-08 18:11 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-10-09 4:16 ` William Hubbs
2013-10-10 0:24 ` walt
2013-10-10 14:46 ` William Hubbs
2013-10-10 15:29 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-10-11 6:59 ` Nicolas Sebrecht
2013-09-29 18:46 ` [gentoo-user] " Neil Bothwick
2013-10-02 16:58 ` the
2013-09-29 19:16 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-30 2:23 ` [gentoo-user] " »Q«
2013-09-29 18:41 ` [gentoo-user] " Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 21:48 ` Dale
2013-09-29 23:12 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 17:43 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 18:53 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 19:54 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 20:20 ` Mark David Dumlao
2013-09-29 22:00 ` Dale
2013-09-29 22:31 ` Mark David Dumlao
2013-09-29 23:08 ` Dale
2013-09-30 7:35 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-30 9:27 ` Dale
2013-09-29 23:40 ` Daniel Campbell
2013-09-30 7:39 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-28 19:04 ` Alan Mackenzie
2013-09-28 20:17 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-28 21:09 ` Alan Mackenzie
2013-09-28 22:37 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 4:48 ` Greg Woodbury
2013-09-29 5:08 ` Bruce Hill
2013-09-29 8:43 ` Dale
2013-09-29 12:07 ` Alan Mackenzie
2013-09-29 16:10 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-29 22:06 ` Walter Dnes
2013-09-29 23:00 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-30 4:14 ` Walter Dnes
2013-09-30 4:21 ` Mark David Dumlao
2013-09-30 4:36 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2013-09-30 9:25 ` Walter Dnes
2013-09-30 8:01 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-30 10:32 ` Joost Roeleveld
2013-09-30 10:41 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-30 8:19 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 23:24 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 17:55 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 18:30 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-28 22:24 ` Dale
2013-09-29 17:58 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 18:21 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2013-09-29 18:32 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 19:11 ` William Hubbs
2013-09-29 19:34 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2013-09-29 19:41 ` Alon Bar-Lev
2013-09-29 23:02 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-29 23:52 ` Greg Woodbury
2013-09-30 0:02 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-11 8:36 ` [gentoo-user] " Steven J. Long
2013-10-11 8:42 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-11 11:27 ` [gentoo-user] " Steven J. Long
2013-10-11 11:55 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-11 13:11 ` Peter Humphrey
2013-10-11 13:58 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-12 2:21 ` [gentoo-user] " walt
2013-10-12 5:06 ` Daniel Campbell
2013-10-12 8:11 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 14:53 ` [gentoo-user] " Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 15:39 ` Dale
2013-09-30 4:55 ` [gentoo-user] " »Q«
2013-09-30 9:24 ` Dale
2013-09-29 18:36 ` [gentoo-user] " Neil Bothwick
2013-09-30 10:16 ` Joost Roeleveld
2013-09-30 10:24 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-30 10:35 ` Joost Roeleveld
2013-09-29 17:59 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 20:09 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 20:35 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-30 10:20 ` Joost Roeleveld
2013-09-28 20:43 ` [gentoo-user] " Nikos Chantziaras
2013-09-28 20:58 ` Alon Bar-Lev
2013-09-28 22:36 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-28 23:23 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-28 23:31 ` pk
2013-09-29 0:01 ` Dale
2013-09-29 0:10 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 0:33 ` pk
2013-09-29 4:05 ` Bruce Hill
2013-09-29 10:59 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-29 15:24 ` pk
2013-09-29 16:11 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-29 16:36 ` Dale
2013-09-29 17:05 ` pk
2013-09-29 0:08 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 10:59 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-29 6:06 ` Walter Dnes
2013-09-29 9:30 ` pk
2013-09-29 10:21 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 17:55 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 18:55 ` William Hubbs
2013-09-29 19:09 ` Tanstaafl
2013-10-09 13:39 ` gottlieb
2013-09-29 20:39 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 20:51 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 21:15 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 22:53 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 23:09 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-30 9:00 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-30 17:25 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-30 19:14 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-30 22:05 ` Mick
2013-09-30 22:39 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-01 12:35 ` PORTDIR default - changing PORTDIR variable - WAS " Tanstaafl
2013-10-01 12:46 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-10-01 13:52 ` Tanstaafl
2013-10-01 14:11 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-10-01 14:57 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-01 14:17 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-01 13:13 ` Dragostin Yanev
2013-10-01 14:14 ` Michael Orlitzky
2013-10-01 18:15 ` Tanstaafl
2013-10-01 18:48 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-01 21:24 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-10-01 22:51 ` Greg Turner
2013-10-01 23:41 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-02 12:23 ` Tanstaafl
2013-10-02 15:31 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-02 18:24 ` Tanstaafl
2013-10-02 20:21 ` Tanstaafl
2013-12-04 15:05 ` [gentoo-user] Re: PORTDIR default - changing PORTDIR variable Tanstaafl
2013-12-04 21:43 ` Tanstaafl
2013-12-04 22:44 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-12-05 11:47 ` Tanstaafl
2013-10-03 5:48 ` PORTDIR default - changing PORTDIR variable - WAS Re: [gentoo-user] Re: separate / and /usr to require initramfs 2013-11-01 joost
2013-10-03 8:11 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-02 12:04 ` Tanstaafl
2013-10-02 12:12 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-02 12:29 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-10-02 12:28 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-10-02 12:53 ` Tanstaafl
2013-10-02 15:47 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-10-02 16:39 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-03 9:00 ` Yuri K. Shatroff
2013-10-03 12:09 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-10-02 8:03 ` [gentoo-user] Re: PORTDIR default - changing PORTDIR variable Thanasis
2013-09-30 0:28 ` [gentoo-user] Re: separate / and /usr to require initramfs 2013-11-01 Daniel Campbell
[not found] <lWOHU-5Kr-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <lWORA-5Tq-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <lWORA-5Tq-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <lWPaW-6bL-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <lWQJH-8d1-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <lX5fI-13Z-29@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <lXtBo-6G5-29@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <lXvDc-IX-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <lXvWy-11o-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
2013-10-06 22:02 ` [gentoo-user] " Gregory Shearman
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