From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56ABE1381F3 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2013 16:33:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 91043E0EE1; Sun, 29 Sep 2013 16:33:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ob0-f170.google.com (mail-ob0-f170.google.com [209.85.214.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82F58E0E10 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2013 16:33:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ob0-f170.google.com with SMTP id va2so4501303obc.29 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2013 09:33:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ibyyVhTEt5X+RgBNfJMQTIcdYnGcPMl9Xh+YoqhEhUE=; b=YoFBkudqIxttK06hjg3t5cZqNCyIhr+nM0z/T4yy1K6i/mybZfNK6vq4Jb8vniiuNP E3eG1WPCvZTZErrgcfajzZw4rG2B0lpfBHRKKlmiwwXQdmulAsrmmWpIa78+AvlaE/OT HWVgah8J6XIhoW5FsSHYLUuXS/ThgXAREY1zP7uxrV28iWaE2nzn7JHX3MJc1Mzbo3b1 M3Qa7YzmpRkpEuG315IxuXl8ybouKP4tEt7OETUwCIkJ3Z5suR9BD3zPu6pYhOMwcWIJ 12CCNf84NiFq0srd1L5h5/cEb+NDMsqz680lHBkGMU+0niKh4Vwq9bOxROW93f11hPjH 4VTg== X-Received: by 10.60.133.233 with SMTP id pf9mr952844oeb.46.1380472403679; Sun, 29 Sep 2013 09:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.5] (adsl-98-95-149-129.jan.bellsouth.net. [98.95.149.129]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id it7sm23791504obb.11.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 29 Sep 2013 09:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <52485652.4060308@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2013 11:33:22 -0500 From: Dale User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/24.0 SeaMonkey/2.21 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Flexibility and robustness in the Linux organisim References: <5246079E.7090406@gmail.com> <524761B4.60805@gmail.com> <20130929052937.GA30380@waltdnes.org> <201309290925.06893.michaelkintzios@gmail.com> <5247E4C2.5040502@gmail.com> <52480720.7070704@googlemail.com> <52480902.9040305@gmail.com> <52481602.6020305@googlemail.com> <52484363.7020309@gmail.com> <52484F5F.5090408@googlemail.com> In-Reply-To: <52484F5F.5090408@googlemail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archives-Salt: e407fae8-8d4b-4d2b-b43a-23ff95b7bee9 X-Archives-Hash: 38d72738c0ea46921bda262a2044ae61 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: > Am 29.09.2013 17:12, schrieb Greg Woodbury: >> On 09/29/2013 07:58 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: >> >>> things were broken way before that. As much as I hate systemd, it is not >>> the root cause of the problem. >>> >>> The problems were caused by people saying that seperate /usr was a good >>> idea, so / would not fill up and similar idiocies. The problems were >>> caused by people saying that lvm is a good idea - for desktops. Those >>> people who are fighting against the kernel auto assembling raids are to >>> blame too. >>> >>> Systemd is just another point in a very long list. >>> >> The usr filesystem was separate from root from the very early days of >> UNIX. Disks were *tiny* (compared to today) and spreading certain >> things across separate spindles provided major benefits. Certainly, >> the original need to require a separate usr went away fairly quickly, >> but other benefits continued to encourage a seperation between root >> and usr. >> > in the very early days /usr did not exist in the first space and was > only created because someone added a harddisk. > > Not really a good reason to keep it around. Nope, new reasons now. Good ones for me and quite a few others as well. > >> The var filesystem was for variable system data, and was never >> terribly big and its inclusion on the root volume happened. The home >> filesystem became traditionally separate because data expands to fill >> all availab;e space, and users collect *things* > and a seperate /home does not create any problems. > /var is much more prone to accidentally fill up then /usr ever was. Happened to me twice since I started using LVM. I might add, it was one reason I started using LVM in the first place. I needed to be able to increase the size of file systems without redoing everything. LVM does that pretty well and has saved my bacon more than once. > > <<>> >> As a result, the GNOME Alliance has shattered. The main GNOME army >> marches on its unfathomable path, and various large chunks have broke >> off in their own directions (e.g. Cinnamon and Mate) seeking to remain >> flexible and not incompatible with the KDE and other lesser DE folks. >> >> It is truly layable at the feet of the GNOME folks, the breakage of >> the root and usr filesystem separability is all derived from the GNOME >> camp. >> These changes may not, in fact, be deliberate or intended to "defeat" >> Microsoft, but Ockham's Razor cuts and intentionality is the simpler >> explanation. > that gnome is very hostile when it comes to KDE or choice is not news. > And their dependency on systemd is just the usual madness. But they are > not to blame for seperate /usr and the breakage it causes. If not, then what was it? You seem to know what it was that started it so why not share? > >> >> To come back to the thesis: robustness and flexibility are required >> for good "health" and we are witnessing a dangerous challenge. >> > what? that you need an initrd? That is so bad? > > Are you kidding me? For me, nope, I ain't kidding one dang bit. For me, I have used one before and it was a mess. It failed more times than I would care to think about so pardon me for NOT wanting to use one again. >> [PS} If anybody cares, I was trained in both Computer Science and >> Biological Science. and I can expand on the parallels if so desired. >> > no thank you. But if I might add one: you are making an elephant out of > a gnat. > > Maybe that gnat didn't bite you and give you some serious reason not to let it happen again. You worry about the elephant tho. :-D Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!