From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0CBC1381F3 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2013 20:24:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7EB74E0BD4; Fri, 23 Aug 2013 20:24:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 610A7E0BCB for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2013 20:24:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.4.8] (blfd-4d08f0e2.pool.mediaWays.net [77.8.240.226]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: hasufell) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 244F733EB8F for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2013 20:24:40 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <5217C4B1.3000205@gentoo.org> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 22:23:13 +0200 From: hasufell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130816 Thunderbird/17.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative References: <20130820151232.GA2420@artifex> <52163318.7010106@marc-stuermer.de> <52163518.7010209@gentoo.org> <521636D9.7040808@marc-stuermer.de> <52163779.90809@gentoo.org> <4F04DC38-FF96-4F31-A75D-8EF398D73C7D@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> <52172E9E.60405@mail.ru> <52173E73.4030302@mail.ru> <5217845C.6010608@marc-stuermer.de> <521786AC.6080100@gentoo.org> <5217A562.1020803@yandex.ru> In-Reply-To: <5217A562.1020803@yandex.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Archives-Salt: cec86213-7d32-46dc-9209-7290e0f9fbf3 X-Archives-Hash: 13d95e43bfa8d0f19f3ab65557f99350 On 08/23/2013 08:09 PM, Yuri K. Shatroff wrote: > On 23.08.2013 19:58, hasufell wrote: >> On 08/23/2013 05:48 PM, Marc Stürmer wrote: >>> Am 23.08.2013 12:50, schrieb the: >>> [ ... ] >>> The point for Skype, last time I am going to repeat that, is that it >>> works out of the box for the normal user and the large user base. >> >> And that is still wrong. If it works for you, fine. There are enough >> users who have a LOT of trouble with it. Again: read the bugtrackers, >> I do. > > (Again, I'm not a skypodefender in any way) > Please recommend us a bugtracker for an actively developing software > which has, well, considerably fewer bugs. (Add to this: multiplatform, > multiuser, network-based etc) > I was talking about crash and segfault bugs in specific. Check the xfce bug tracker if you need an example for a rather well maintained piece of software compared to skype. >> And even better: you cannot file bug reports properly (at least from >> what I see the skype jira is gone) and cannot read/fix code. >> >> You are lured into believing it's a good piece of software that works >> out of the box, because all they do is good advertisement and increasing >> their userbase with some shiny features. Even worse: distro maintainers >> have trouble with it, need to apply hacks or don't even include it at >> all because of the nasty license. How does that improve "out-of-the-box" >> experience? > > Your view is simply different from the view of most software users. A > "good piece of software" for them is not what is well-coded or > well-maintained or well-licensed or well-whatever. All they need is > matching their expectations. You may be 146% correct about troubles and > hacks but this doesn't change the average joe's expectations. And yes, > in most situations skype does work out-of-the-box. Sad, but true. > Repeating it and ignoring the troubles people have throughout distro forums and bug trackers will not help you prove your point. >> Next you will tell us windows works out of the box. > > It does, in most situations. Sad, but true. That is simply not true. It doesn't even come with most of the needed hardware drivers. There is almost nothing pre-installed. Getting programs is complicated. It seems to me you don't really understand what "out of the box" means. > >> I mean, wtf are you talking about? It doesn't make any sense. And >> doesn't even add anything to this topic. > > That's all about off-topic. > But not acknowledging the truth doesn't add anything either. > Do people hate Windows or other proprietary stuff because of its bugs? > Or because of its not working OOTB? In my experience, I'd probably > number a thousand more times of open-source software not working OOTB > and being buggy than Windows/etc. But I still adhere to OSS. > I don't think that having an 'ideal' piece of proprietary software would > change an open-source adept's mind towards PS. But neither I think that > emphasizing PS' problems which are common to all software will help > people turn to the open-source side. > opensource often sucks if there is no one professionally working on it, as in: get's money