[gentoo-user] [OT] How fast was ... ?

[gentoo-user] [OT] How fast was ... ?

[meino.cramer]

Hi,

On www.archive.org I found videos of the series "Computer Chronicle"
with Richard Cheifet and Gary Kildall (the inventor of CP/M and the
founder of Intergalactical Digital Research, later known as Digital
Research or short DR).

Totally amazed by the things which were "brandnew" those days
(1985/1995) and are outclassed by any digital whristwatch nowadays I
became curious about a more exact definition of "faster" in this
area...

Or in other words:

Is it really true, that a mobile smartphone of today is as fast as
a big iron of 1975?

I know, that it is nearly totally false ;) to compare a big iron and
a smartphone on base on such few parameters such as clock speed,
amount of RAM, size of the screen and other isolated things, but
I dont intended to create a scientific work here... ;)

This is more for just the fun of it.

AND:
I would like to compare PRICES!

For example (totally fiction and not based on any knowledge...)

A PDP-11 costs 25000 $ and was/is as fast as my konqstar mobile phone for 30 EUR.

Are there any comparisons like that example with the PDP-11?
What was the real performance of those computers of the computer history?
How much more of "computing power" one do get today for what less
of money?
Is it really true, that I can carry the computing power of a
datacenter of 1985 in my pocket nowadays?

Thank you very much for any nice idea, story or of course comparison
in advance!i :)

Best regards,
mcc

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] How fast was ... ?

[Mark Knecht]

On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 10:56 AM,  <meino.cramer@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On www.archive.org I found videos of the series "Computer Chronicle"
> with Richard Cheifet and Gary Kildall (the inventor of CP/M and the
> founder of Intergalactical Digital Research, later known as Digital
> Research or short DR).
<SNIP>
> Is it really true, that I can carry the computing power of a
> datacenter of 1985 in my pocket nowadays?
>
> Thank you very much for any nice idea, story or of course comparison
> in advance!i :)
>
> Best regards,
> mcc
>

Fundamentally, you're really talking about Moore's Law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_law

Cheers,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] How fast was ... ?

[Paul Hartman]

On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 12:56 PM,  <meino.cramer@gmx.de> wrote:
> Totally amazed by the things which were "brandnew" those days
> (1985/1995) and are outclassed by any digital whristwatch nowadays I
> became curious about a more exact definition of "faster" in this
> area...

If you like reading about old and interesting processors, you may
enjoy this site:

http://jbayko.sasktelwebsite.net/cpu.html

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] How fast was ... ?

[Paul Hartman]

On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:10 PM, Paul Hartman
<paul.hartman+gentoo@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 12:56 PM,  <meino.cramer@gmx.de> wrote:
>> Totally amazed by the things which were "brandnew" those days
>> (1985/1995) and are outclassed by any digital whristwatch nowadays I
>> became curious about a more exact definition of "faster" in this
>> area...
>
> If you like reading about old and interesting processors, you may
> enjoy this site:
>
> http://jbayko.sasktelwebsite.net/cpu.html
>

And here are benchmarks of some really old systems compared to newer:

http://www.roylongbottom.org.uk/whetstone.htm

As will all benchmarks, the usual disclaimer that benchmarks are all
flawed, etc. :)

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] How fast was ... ?

[Michael Mol]

On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:56 PM,  <meino.cramer@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On www.archive.org I found videos of the series "Computer Chronicle"
> with Richard Cheifet and Gary Kildall (the inventor of CP/M and the
> founder of Intergalactical Digital Research, later known as Digital
> Research or short DR).
>
> Totally amazed by the things which were "brandnew" those days
> (1985/1995) and are outclassed by any digital whristwatch nowadays I
> became curious about a more exact definition of "faster" in this
> area...
>
> Or in other words:
>
> Is it really true, that a mobile smartphone of today is as fast as
> a big iron of 1975?

My understanding is that big iron's outstanding features were:
* Uptime
* Gobs and gobs and gobs of I/O. (Though I don't know the numbers)

If you want to compare feature sets, be sure to include those. :)

-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] How fast was ... ?

[meino.cramer]

Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> [11-10-26 20:40]:
> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:56 PM,  <meino.cramer@gmx.de> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On www.archive.org I found videos of the series "Computer Chronicle"
> > with Richard Cheifet and Gary Kildall (the inventor of CP/M and the
> > founder of Intergalactical Digital Research, later known as Digital
> > Research or short DR).
> >
> > Totally amazed by the things which were "brandnew" those days
> > (1985/1995) and are outclassed by any digital whristwatch nowadays I
> > became curious about a more exact definition of "faster" in this
> > area...
> >
> > Or in other words:
> >
> > Is it really true, that a mobile smartphone of today is as fast as
> > a big iron of 1975?
> 
> My understanding is that big iron's outstanding features were:
> * Uptime
> * Gobs and gobs and gobs of I/O. (Though I don't know the numbers)
> 
> If you want to compare feature sets, be sure to include those. :)
> 
> -- 
> :wq
> 

Thank you *VERY* much for those nice links!!! :) Great stuff!

I know, that benchmarking is anything but science...but on the other
hand: Knowing that a PDP-8 (which was newer than the PDP-7 on which
Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson started to develop UNIX) had about 
0.004 MWIPS and a current desktop PC has something like 3500 MWIPS 
let shine a total different, more brighter light to terms like
"computer pioneers"...  :)

Those days a 'bit' was more a real thing than nowadays :)))

Best regards,
mcc

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] How fast was ... ?

[Pandu Poluan]

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On Oct 27, 2011 9:50 AM, <meino.cramer@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> [11-10-26 20:40]:
> > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:56 PM,  <meino.cramer@gmx.de> wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > On www.archive.org I found videos of the series "Computer Chronicle"
> > > with Richard Cheifet and Gary Kildall (the inventor of CP/M and the
> > > founder of Intergalactical Digital Research, later known as Digital
> > > Research or short DR).
> > >
> > > Totally amazed by the things which were "brandnew" those days
> > > (1985/1995) and are outclassed by any digital whristwatch nowadays I
> > > became curious about a more exact definition of "faster" in this
> > > area...
> > >
> > > Or in other words:
> > >
> > > Is it really true, that a mobile smartphone of today is as fast as
> > > a big iron of 1975?
> >
> > My understanding is that big iron's outstanding features were:
> > * Uptime
> > * Gobs and gobs and gobs of I/O. (Though I don't know the numbers)
> >
> > If you want to compare feature sets, be sure to include those. :)
> >
> > --
> > :wq
> >
>
> Thank you *VERY* much for those nice links!!! :) Great stuff!
>
> I know, that benchmarking is anything but science...but on the other
> hand: Knowing that a PDP-8 (which was newer than the PDP-7 on which
> Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson started to develop UNIX) had about
> 0.004 MWIPS and a current desktop PC has something like 3500 MWIPS
> let shine a total different, more brighter light to terms like
> "computer pioneers"...  :)
>
> Those days a 'bit' was more a real thing than nowadays :)))
>

Back in 'those days', cycle-counting is a must for all programmers. Heck, as
recent as 8088, programmers still do cycle-counting (especially assembly
programmers).

Kids these days have it sooooooo much easier.

Oh, and... get off my lawn! :-D

Rgds,

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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] How fast was ... ?

[Florian Philipp]

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Am 27.10.2011 06:34, schrieb Pandu Poluan:
> 
> On Oct 27, 2011 9:50 AM, <meino.cramer@gmx.de
> <mailto:meino.cramer@gmx.de>> wrote:
>>
>> Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com <mailto:mikemol@gmail.com>> [11-10-26
> 20:40]:
>> > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:56 PM,  <meino.cramer@gmx.de
> <mailto:meino.cramer@gmx.de>> wrote:
>> > > Hi,
>> > >
>> > > On www.archive.org <http://www.archive.org> I found videos of the
> series "Computer Chronicle"
>> > > with Richard Cheifet and Gary Kildall (the inventor of CP/M and the
>> > > founder of Intergalactical Digital Research, later known as Digital
>> > > Research or short DR).
>> > >
>> > > Totally amazed by the things which were "brandnew" those days
>> > > (1985/1995) and are outclassed by any digital whristwatch nowadays I
>> > > became curious about a more exact definition of "faster" in this
>> > > area...
>> > >
>> > > Or in other words:
>> > >
>> > > Is it really true, that a mobile smartphone of today is as fast as
>> > > a big iron of 1975?
>> >
>> > My understanding is that big iron's outstanding features were:
>> > * Uptime
>> > * Gobs and gobs and gobs of I/O. (Though I don't know the numbers)
>> >
>> > If you want to compare feature sets, be sure to include those. :)
>> >
>> > --
>> > :wq
>> >
>>
>> Thank you *VERY* much for those nice links!!! :) Great stuff!
>>
>> I know, that benchmarking is anything but science...but on the other
>> hand: Knowing that a PDP-8 (which was newer than the PDP-7 on which
>> Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson started to develop UNIX) had about
>> 0.004 MWIPS and a current desktop PC has something like 3500 MWIPS
>> let shine a total different, more brighter light to terms like
>> "computer pioneers"...  :)
>>
>> Those days a 'bit' was more a real thing than nowadays :)))
>>
> 
> Back in 'those days', cycle-counting is a must for all programmers.
> Heck, as recent as 8088, programmers still do cycle-counting (especially
> assembly programmers).
> 
> Kids these days have it sooooooo much easier.
> 
> Oh, and... get off my lawn! :-D
> 
> Rgds,
> 

One of my colleagues at the lab still tells stories of the time when he
set up a radio receiver in the canteen so he could hear the mainframe
"buzz" on shortwave radio while his program was running. When the sound
suddenly changed, he knew there was an error.

Regards,
Florian Philipp


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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] How fast was ... ?

[meino.cramer]

Florian Philipp <lists@binarywings.net> [11-10-27 17:10]:
> Am 27.10.2011 06:34, schrieb Pandu Poluan:
> > 
> > On Oct 27, 2011 9:50 AM, <meino.cramer@gmx.de
> > <mailto:meino.cramer@gmx.de>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com <mailto:mikemol@gmail.com>> [11-10-26
> > 20:40]:
> >> > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:56 PM,  <meino.cramer@gmx.de
> > <mailto:meino.cramer@gmx.de>> wrote:
> >> > > Hi,
> >> > >
> >> > > On www.archive.org <http://www.archive.org> I found videos of the
> > series "Computer Chronicle"
> >> > > with Richard Cheifet and Gary Kildall (the inventor of CP/M and the
> >> > > founder of Intergalactical Digital Research, later known as Digital
> >> > > Research or short DR).
> >> > >
> >> > > Totally amazed by the things which were "brandnew" those days
> >> > > (1985/1995) and are outclassed by any digital whristwatch nowadays I
> >> > > became curious about a more exact definition of "faster" in this
> >> > > area...
> >> > >
> >> > > Or in other words:
> >> > >
> >> > > Is it really true, that a mobile smartphone of today is as fast as
> >> > > a big iron of 1975?
> >> >
> >> > My understanding is that big iron's outstanding features were:
> >> > * Uptime
> >> > * Gobs and gobs and gobs of I/O. (Though I don't know the numbers)
> >> >
> >> > If you want to compare feature sets, be sure to include those. :)
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > :wq
> >> >
> >>
> >> Thank you *VERY* much for those nice links!!! :) Great stuff!
> >>
> >> I know, that benchmarking is anything but science...but on the other
> >> hand: Knowing that a PDP-8 (which was newer than the PDP-7 on which
> >> Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson started to develop UNIX) had about
> >> 0.004 MWIPS and a current desktop PC has something like 3500 MWIPS
> >> let shine a total different, more brighter light to terms like
> >> "computer pioneers"...  :)
> >>
> >> Those days a 'bit' was more a real thing than nowadays :)))
> >>
> > 
> > Back in 'those days', cycle-counting is a must for all programmers.
> > Heck, as recent as 8088, programmers still do cycle-counting (especially
> > assembly programmers).
> > 
> > Kids these days have it sooooooo much easier.
> > 
> > Oh, and... get off my lawn! :-D
> > 
> > Rgds,
> > 
> 
> One of my colleagues at the lab still tells stories of the time when he
> set up a radio receiver in the canteen so he could hear the mainframe
> "buzz" on shortwave radio while his program was running. When the sound
> suddenly changed, he knew there was an error.
> 
> Regards,
> Florian Philipp
> 

Hi, 

oh YEAH!

This is true computer magick! Really!
Somehow I miss that day, when little green bit from
outer space were little green bits from outer space,
and real programmers has gone where no man has been
gone before!

I started with an Atari 800. I had a "bible" called
"Mapping the Atari" which had described EVERY used memory
cell with its funtion and what you can do with it.
"Peek" and "Poke" was daily business, and GOTO was
crime at all.
Damn, one knows the function of nearly every chip in
this computer and it was possible even to write 
assembly programs (it was the assembly code of the
graphics chip! NOT the CPU!) of the which get executed \
each vertical blank interrupt!

Somehow sad, that this time has gone.

(Am I getting older?)

Best regards,
mcc

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] How fast was ... ?

[meino.cramer]

Hi,

By the way: 

There is an old CPM 2.2 manual available. Unfortunately in
AMIPRO-format.

I tried to load it with libreoffice from the commandline
with no success.

What can I do to load and convert this manual to a "normal"
format?

Thank you very much in advance for any help!
Best regards,
mcc

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] How fast was ... ?

[Paul Hartman]

On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 10:52 AM,  <meino.cramer@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> By the way:
>
> There is an old CPM 2.2 manual available. Unfortunately in
> AMIPRO-format.
>
> I tried to load it with libreoffice from the commandline
> with no success.
>
> What can I do to load and convert this manual to a "normal"
> format?

I don't think anything can read it natively in Linux. IBM/Lotus has a
free Windows viewer program called KeyView. Maybe it works under Wine
or surely in a Windows virtual machine.

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] How fast was ... ?

[meino.cramer]

Paul Hartman <paul.hartman+gentoo@gmail.com> [11-10-27 18:36]:
> On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 10:52 AM,  <meino.cramer@gmx.de> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > By the way:
> >
> > There is an old CPM 2.2 manual available. Unfortunately in
> > AMIPRO-format.
> >
> > I tried to load it with libreoffice from the commandline
> > with no success.
> >
> > What can I do to load and convert this manual to a "normal"
> > format?
> 
> I don't think anything can read it natively in Linux. IBM/Lotus has a
> free Windows viewer program called KeyView. Maybe it works under Wine
> or surely in a Windows virtual machine.
> 

Hmmm...may be the other way round: I found CPM 2.2 manuals in
Postscript format also and want to convert them to ASCII. 
Since there are a lot of tables in the manual, I want the conversion
to respect white space even at the beginning of a line.

I tried pstotext, but either it cannot handle this case or I did
something wrong: Only the linebreaks were respected (and the text
itsself of course ;).

What else can perform a "perfect" conversion from postscript to ascii
else?

Thank you very much in advance for any ....hrrrrmmm.... conversion ;)

Best regards,
mcc

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] How fast was ... ?

[Florian Philipp]

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Am 27.10.2011 19:08, schrieb meino.cramer@gmx.de:
> Paul Hartman <paul.hartman+gentoo@gmail.com> [11-10-27 18:36]:
>> On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 10:52 AM,  <meino.cramer@gmx.de> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> By the way:
>>>
>>> There is an old CPM 2.2 manual available. Unfortunately in
>>> AMIPRO-format.
>>>
>>> I tried to load it with libreoffice from the commandline
>>> with no success.
>>>
>>> What can I do to load and convert this manual to a "normal"
>>> format?
>>
>> I don't think anything can read it natively in Linux. IBM/Lotus has a
>> free Windows viewer program called KeyView. Maybe it works under Wine
>> or surely in a Windows virtual machine.
>>
> 
> Hmmm...may be the other way round: I found CPM 2.2 manuals in
> Postscript format also and want to convert them to ASCII. 
> Since there are a lot of tables in the manual, I want the conversion
> to respect white space even at the beginning of a line.
> 
> I tried pstotext, but either it cannot handle this case or I did
> something wrong: Only the linebreaks were respected (and the text
> itsself of course ;).
> 
> What else can perform a "perfect" conversion from postscript to ascii
> else?
> 
> Thank you very much in advance for any ....hrrrrmmm.... conversion ;)
> 
> Best regards,
> mcc
> 
> 

Try `pstoedit -f text input.ps output.txt`
From media-gfx/pstoedit

Hope this helps,
Florian Philipp


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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] How fast was ... ?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

rule of thumb:

todays desktops are the BIG IRON of 10 years ago

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] How fast was ... ?

[daid kahl]

> Thank you very much for any nice idea, story or of course comparison
> in advance!i :)

Well, I still have a TI-86 calculator with a Z80 processor.  Of
course, even these are extremely mocked these days (eg
http://xkcd.com/768/)

My best friend in high school had programmer parents, and lots of
computer magazines from the 80s.  I know we found some computer with a
Z80 processor from 1980 for $2000.  I bought my calculator in 1998 for
about $100.  Using a random inflation calculator, the same computer
would have cost $4000 at that time.

Who knows about specs and other stuff, but you said you wanted
stories, not science.

~daid

PS Actually my calculator is MIA right now.  Maybe I left it in the US
or Canada...or it's packed in some bag in Japan?  Whatever people can
say, I miss my calculator.