[gentoo-user] Kernel Questions

[gentoo-user] Kernel Questions

[Silvio Siefke]

Hello,


i want ask some questions for the Kernel. 

How do I find dependencies of each option?
Are there patches for older computers?

I use the good old Pentium 4 on the desktop and an atom on the laptop.
But I have often the problem when the computer has much to do, that the 
system freeze. That's on the atom often so. The opera is my favorite 
Browser, but often the call on a website and the result end in freeze.
What is really strange, when i run emerge --sync ; emerge -avuDN @world,
the Pentium 4 is faster as the Atom. Is that normal?


gentoo-desk src # uname -a
Linux gentoo-desk.silviosiefke.de 3.2.34 #1 SMP Mon Nov 19 14:23:14 CET 2012 
i686 Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.40GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux

siefke@gentoo-mobile : ~ $ uname -a 
Linux gentoo-mobile 3.7.4 #1 SMP Wed Jan 23 07:01:32 CET 2013 i686 Intel(R) 
Atom(TM) CPU N270 @ 1.60GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux

I has read in the Kernel Project of Gentoo something from ck-patchset. Is 
that good for that problems which i have, or has read wrong?

It were nice some can share the own expirence. The Kernel is so hard to 
understand, when take off a option, other option run not. I really not
know what i need and what need. 

Hope can understand what i mean. Thank you for help. 


Greetings
Silvio

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel Questions

[Bruce Hill]

On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 06:53:15PM +0100, Silvio Siefke wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> 
> i want ask some questions for the Kernel. 
> 
> How do I find dependencies of each option?
> Are there patches for older computers?
> 
> I use the good old Pentium 4 on the desktop and an atom on the laptop.
> But I have often the problem when the computer has much to do, that the 
> system freeze. That's on the atom often so. The opera is my favorite 
> Browser, but often the call on a website and the result end in freeze.
> What is really strange, when i run emerge --sync ; emerge -avuDN @world,
> the Pentium 4 is faster as the Atom. Is that normal?
> 
> 
> gentoo-desk src # uname -a
> Linux gentoo-desk.silviosiefke.de 3.2.34 #1 SMP Mon Nov 19 14:23:14 CET 2012 
> i686 Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.40GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux
> 
> siefke@gentoo-mobile : ~ $ uname -a 
> Linux gentoo-mobile 3.7.4 #1 SMP Wed Jan 23 07:01:32 CET 2013 i686 Intel(R) 
> Atom(TM) CPU N270 @ 1.60GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux
> 
> I has read in the Kernel Project of Gentoo something from ck-patchset. Is 
> that good for that problems which i have, or has read wrong?
> 
> It were nice some can share the own expirence. The Kernel is so hard to 
> understand, when take off a option, other option run not. I really not
> know what i need and what need. 
> 
> Hope can understand what i mean. Thank you for help. 
> 
> 
> Greetings
> Silvio

Please read "Linux Kernel in a Nutshell". You can:

"emerge -av app-doc/linux-kernel-in-a-nutshell"

and also read it online: http://www.kroah.com/lkn/

Cheers,
Bruce
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Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel Questions

[Florian Philipp]

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Am 22.01.2013 19:43, schrieb Bruce Hill:
> On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 06:53:15PM +0100, Silvio Siefke wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>>
>> i want ask some questions for the Kernel. 
>>
>> How do I find dependencies of each option?

In menuconfig, when you open the help on an item, there is a line
"Depends on". If the requirement is not met, the option is not visible
but can be found by searching (press /).

There might also be a line "Selects" which contains automatically
activated dependencies and "Selected by" which contains the reverse
dependencies.

>> Are there patches for older computers?
>>

Don't think so. If there is a regression, it should get fixed in the
main line kernel.

>> I use the good old Pentium 4 on the desktop and an atom on the laptop.
>> But I have often the problem when the computer has much to do, that the 
>> system freeze.

What kind of workload do we talk about? Properly "niced" and "ioniced"
compile jobs? Is the freeze temporary?

>> That's on the atom often so. The opera is my favorite 
>> Browser, but often the call on a website and the result end in freeze.

Odd. Maybe GPU related? Again, does the system recover?


>> What is really strange, when i run emerge --sync ; emerge -avuDN @world,
>> the Pentium 4 is faster as the Atom. Is that normal?
>>

Doesn't surprise me. P4 and Atom are both horrible micro architectures.
But Atom is also horribly stripped down and has a lower clock frequency.

[...]
>> It were nice some can share the own expirence. The Kernel is so hard to 
>> understand, when take off a option, other option run not. I really not
>> know what i need and what need. 
> 
> Please read "Linux Kernel in a Nutshell". You can:
> 
> "emerge -av app-doc/linux-kernel-in-a-nutshell"
> 
> and also read it online: http://www.kroah.com/lkn/
> 

+1

Regards,
Florian Philipp



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Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel Questions

[Frank Steinmetzger]

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On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 08:48:49PM +0100, Florian Philipp wrote:
> Am 22.01.2013 19:43, schrieb Bruce Hill:
> > On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 06:53:15PM +0100, Silvio Siefke wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> i want ask some questions for the Kernel. 
> >>
> >> How do I find dependencies of each option?
> 
> In menuconfig, when you open the help on an item, there is a line
> "Depends on". If the requirement is not met, the option is not visible
> but can be found by searching (press /).

By happy accident I found out that those can be shown with the Z key.

> There might also be a line "Selects" which contains automatically
> activated dependencies and "Selected by" which contains the reverse
> dependencies.
> 
> >> Are there patches for older computers?
> >>
> 
> Don't think so. If there is a regression, it should get fixed in the
> main line kernel.

In recent news the support for i386 processors was dropped. So your Pentium 4
still has a few years to go. :)

> >> I use the good old Pentium 4 on the desktop and an atom on the laptop.
> >> But I have often the problem when the computer has much to do, that the 
> >> system freeze.

Overheating problem? Considering it's about a Pentium 4, that seems a likely
cause.

> >> That's on the atom often so. The opera is my favorite 
> >> Browser, but often the call on a website and the result end in freeze.
> 
> Odd. Maybe GPU related? Again, does the system recover?

Do both systems freeze on that website? That seems strange.  I, too, have an
Atom Netbook, though with an N450 which has Hyperthreading. It is not fast; it
takes 17 seconds to load Firefox, but I had no freezes yet. The only problem I
have so far is that mplayer often crashes when going to/from fullscreen if its
video output is set to OpenGL. The N270 is an early model, perhaps some other
hardware in the netbook is slowly dying.

> >> What is really strange, when i run emerge --sync ; emerge -avuDN @world,
> >> the Pentium 4 is faster as the Atom. Is that normal?

Well, on the other hand, you can count the Watts an Atom consumes with one
hand. For the P4 you'd need the hands of up to 12 people. That difference has
to come from somewhere.
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Please do not share anything from, with or about me with any Facebook service.

The power of the press is most prominently felt by grapes.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel Questions

[Silvio Siefke]

On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 23:46:31 +0100
Frank Steinmetzger <Warp_7@gmx.de> wrote:

> In recent news the support for i386 processors was dropped. So your Pentium 4
> still has a few years to go. :)

Yes it is clear that sales for computer must live.
 
> Overheating problem? Considering it's about a Pentium 4, that seems a likely
> cause.

Which P4 i has not so probs. The probs come with Atom. 
 
> Do both systems freeze on that website? That seems strange.  I, too, have an
> Atom Netbook, though with an N450 which has Hyperthreading. It is not fast; it
> takes 17 seconds to load Firefox, but I had no freezes yet. The only problem I
> have so far is that mplayer often crashes when going to/from fullscreen if its
> video output is set to OpenGL. The N270 is an early model, perhaps some other
> hardware in the netbook is slowly dying.

Mine is slow. No matter which browser. No matter which program. That does
not bother me much. But the system is slow, it bugs me. Hard drive I swapped,
memory, I also exchanged.

Yes the System is old. 2009. Maybe it's time for new Netbook. 

> Well, on the other hand, you can count the Watts an Atom consumes with one
> hand. For the P4 you'd need the hands of up to 12 people. That difference has
> to come from somewhere.

Yes but that's not what i look. Im often on the road and the Netbook is better
as a normal Notebook. And my Samsung has really much expirence in traveling :)

Ok thanks for help @all. I think its time for new one, i will see what give
on ebay.


Thank you & Greetings
Silvio

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel Questions

[Frank Steinmetzger]

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On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 12:34:33AM +0100, Silvio Siefke wrote:

Ah ok

> > Do both systems freeze on that website? That seems strange.  I, too, have an
> > Atom Netbook, though with an N450 which has Hyperthreading. It is not fast; it
> > takes 17 seconds to load Firefox, but I had no freezes yet. The only problem I
> > have so far is that mplayer often crashes when going to/from fullscreen if its
> > video output is set to OpenGL. The N270 is an early model, perhaps some other
> > hardware in the netbook is slowly dying.
> 
> Mine is slow. No matter which browser. No matter which program. That does
> not bother me much. But the system is slow, it bugs me. Hard drive I swapped,
> memory, I also exchanged.
> 
> Yes the System is old. 2009. Maybe it's time for new Netbook. 

Nah, mine is just/almost as old (I got it for free from my parents b/c it
developed a jerky LVDS cable that needs swapping out, so they bought a
replacement and I got that one).  I thought more like really early netbooks
(2007, 2008). But depending on your use and wear of the hardware, it could
still be an age issue.  Netbooks aren't cheap for no reason, unfortunately.

> > Well, on the other hand, you can count the Watts an Atom consumes with one
> > hand. For the P4 you'd need the hands of up to 12 people. That difference has
> > to come from somewhere.
> 
> Yes but that's not what i look. Im often on the road and the Netbook is better
> as a normal Notebook. And my Samsung has really much expirence in traveling :)
> 
> Ok thanks for help @all. I think its time for new one, i will see what give
> on ebay.

Did you try any other OS to confirm/reject the theory that your kernel is the
actual culprit? Any live linux from USB can do the trick. Did you run memcheck?
(I know you said you swapped the memory module, perhaps the RAM slot is
defective).
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Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel Questions

[Kevin Chadwick]

> > Overheating problem? Considering it's about a Pentium 4, that seems a likely
> > cause.  
> 
> Which P4 i has not so probs. The probs come with Atom.

Older systems used to reset on overheat so it was obviously hardware.
Newer cpus actually halt and then continue operation. Most of the time
you won't notice, your laptop will just run slower than the spec would
suggest. Some laptops never actually use the cpu fully from day one and
so things like dust or a failing fan may make it very noticeable.

Could be lots of things but I would check your temp sensors from
the os or bios before the kernel.


-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
_______________________________________________________________________

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel Questions

[Silvio Siefke]

Hello,

On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 18:31:10 +0000
Kevin Chadwick <ma1l1ists@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Could be lots of things but I would check your temp sensors from
> the os or bios before the kernel.

is lmsensors ok?

siefke@gentoo-mobile : ~ $ sensors
acpitz-virtual-0
Adapter: Virtual device
temp1:        +52.0°C  (crit = +98.0°C)

coretemp-isa-0000
Adapter: ISA adapter
Core 0:       +38.0°C  (crit = +90.0°C)


Maybe is make.conf the wrong way?

CHOST="i686-pc-linux-gnu"
CFLAGS="-march=native -O2 -fomit-frame-pointer -pipe -mfpmath=sse"
CXXFLAGS="${CFLAGS}"
MAKEOPTS="-j2"

Thank you & Regards

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel Questions

[Silvio Siefke]

Hello,

On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 20:48:49 +0100
Florian Philipp <lists@binarywings.net> wrote:

> In menuconfig, when you open the help on an item, there is a line
> "Depends on". If the requirement is not met, the option is not visible
> but can be found by searching (press /).
> 
> There might also be a line "Selects" which contains automatically
> activated dependencies and "Selected by" which contains the reverse
> dependencies.

Yes this option i know. I thought it is an option that can automatically 
filter.

> Don't think so. If there is a regression, it should get fixed in the
> main line kernel.

Ok. 
 
> What kind of workload do we talk about? Properly "niced" and "ioniced"
> compile jobs? Is the freeze temporary?

If I run a program, depending on the size the System Freeze for 
few seconds. When i start emerge -s, emerge --sync, emerge what ever the
system freeze. Its ever temporary but its make crazy.

 
> Odd. Maybe GPU related? Again, does the system recover?

No GPU is deactivated. When have more then 10 tabs, system hang. 

> Doesn't surprise me. P4 and Atom are both horrible micro architectures.
> But Atom is also horribly stripped down and has a lower clock frequency.

Oh, okay i know Atom is shit, but P4. Which architecture is recommended 
for?
 

Thank you & Regards
Silvio

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel Questions

[Florian Philipp]

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Am 24.01.2013 00:27, schrieb Silvio Siefke:
> Hello,
> 
> On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 20:48:49 +0100
> Florian Philipp <lists@binarywings.net> wrote:
[...]
>> What kind of workload do we talk about? Properly "niced" and "ioniced"
>> compile jobs? Is the freeze temporary?
> 
> If I run a program, depending on the size the System Freeze for 
> few seconds. When i start emerge -s, emerge --sync, emerge what ever the
> system freeze. Its ever temporary but its make crazy.
> 

Hmm, the last time I encountered something like this, DMA was
deactivated for the hard disk. That happened because the wrong driver
(generic IDE) took over. What raw throughput do you get?
`dd if=/dev/sda of=/dev/null bs=4M count=100 iflag=direct`

>  
>> Odd. Maybe GPU related? Again, does the system recover?
> 
> No GPU is deactivated. When have more then 10 tabs, system hang. 
> 

You mean you have not enabled drm and/or use the generic vesa driver?
Maybe something is trying to use opengl and software emulation slows you
down.

>> Doesn't surprise me. P4 and Atom are both horrible micro architectures.
>> But Atom is also horribly stripped down and has a lower clock frequency.
> 
> Oh, okay i know Atom is shit, but P4. Which architecture is recommended 
> for?
>  

P4s suffer because their pipeline is very long and poorly utilized. In
fact, they can execute fewer instructions per clock tick than a P3.
Anything newer is a vast improvement, especially Core2 and newer.

Regards,
Florian Philipp


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Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel Questions

[Kevin Chadwick]

> Anything newer is a vast improvement, especially Core2 and newer.

As long as you ignore the unfixable security issues even by microcode of
core2 duos ;-).

-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
_______________________________________________________________________

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel Questions

[Frank Steinmetzger]

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On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 06:33:38PM +0000, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
> > Anything newer is a vast improvement, especially Core2 and newer.
> 
> As long as you ignore the unfixable security issues even by microcode of
> core2 duos ;-).

-v please
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Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel Questions

[Paul Hartman]

On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 8:40 PM, Frank Steinmetzger <Warp_7@gmx.de> wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 06:33:38PM +0000, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
>> > Anything newer is a vast improvement, especially Core2 and newer.
>>
>> As long as you ignore the unfixable security issues even by microcode of
>> core2 duos ;-).
>
> -v please

Maybe he's referring to this:

http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=118296441702631

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel Questions

[Silvio Siefke]

Hello,

On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 19:27:17 +0100
Florian Philipp <lists@binarywings.net> wrote:


> You mean you have not enabled drm and/or use the generic vesa driver?
> Maybe something is trying to use opengl and software emulation slows you
> down.

In Opera no, in other i not have really something change in config files.
 
> P4s suffer because their pipeline is very long and poorly utilized. In
> fact, they can execute fewer instructions per clock tick than a P3.
> Anything newer is a vast improvement, especially Core2 and newer.

I have look for new Netbook today. Maybe should buy one with i3 or i5,
what is so with AMD? Is there something intresting?


Thank you & Greetings
Silvio

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel Questions

[Silvio Siefke]

Hello,

On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 12:43:53 -0600
Bruce Hill <daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:

> Please read "Linux Kernel in a Nutshell". You can:
> 
> "emerge -av app-doc/linux-kernel-in-a-nutshell"
> 
> and also read it online: http://www.kroah.com/lkn/


thanks for the Link. I will read it. 



Thank you & Greetings
Silvio

[gentoo-user] Re: Kernel Questions

[Nicolas Sebrecht]

The 23/01/13, Silvio Siefke wrote:

> I use the good old Pentium 4 on the desktop and an atom on the laptop.
> But I have often the problem when the computer has much to do, that the 
> system freeze. That's on the atom often so. The opera is my favorite 
> Browser, but often the call on a website and the result end in freeze.
> What is really strange, when i run emerge --sync ; emerge -avuDN @world,
> the Pentium 4 is faster as the Atom. Is that normal?

Did you check if the system is swapping when that happen?

-- 
Nicolas Sebrecht

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Kernel Questions

[Silvio Siefke]

Hello,

On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 09:30:02 +0100
Nicolas Sebrecht <nsebrecht@piing.fr> wrote:

> Did you check if the system is swapping when that happen?

Im sorry, you mean Swap? How can check them best?


Thank you & Greetings
Silvio

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Kernel Questions

[William Kenworthy]

On 24/01/13 21:21, Silvio Siefke wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 09:30:02 +0100
> Nicolas Sebrecht <nsebrecht@piing.fr> wrote:
> 
>> Did you check if the system is swapping when that happen?
> 
> Im sorry, you mean Swap? How can check them best?
> 
> 
> Thank you & Greetings
> Silvio
> 

Hi Silvio, can you check the date on your systems ... your emails are
future dated which kinda stuffs things up ...

BillK

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Kernel Questions

[Silvio Siefke]

Hello,

On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 21:53:58 +0800
William Kenworthy <billk@iinet.net.au> wrote:

> Hi Silvio, can you check the date on your systems ... your emails are
> future dated which kinda stuffs things up ...

Yes thank you i have change it. 


Thank you & Greetings
Silvio

[gentoo-user] Re: Kernel Questions

[Nicolas Sebrecht]

On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 02:21:22PM +0100, Silvio Siefke wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 09:30:02 +0100
> Nicolas Sebrecht <nsebrecht@piing.fr> wrote:
> 
> > Did you check if the system is swapping when that happen?
> 
> Im sorry, you mean Swap? How can check them best?

  % free -m

The htop tool is good, too.

-- 
Nicolas Sebrecht

[gentoo-user] Kernel questions

[Elmar Hinz]

1.) Is there a Map: modules to configration parameters?

"lspci -k" lists me all modules of the running genkernel.
Unfortunately the configuration parameters of the kernel have
different names.


2.) Which approach would you recommend?

To customize the kernel I can either strip down the configuration of
the genkernel or start with an empty .config file.


3.) Is there a concept behind the default settings of make menuconfig
if you start with an empty .config?

I don't see it.


4.)  Is there a concept behind the default settings of make if .config is empty?

Similar question. Running make with an empty .config file starts a
questionary on the shell, with given default settings.

Accepting all defaults doesn't even contain ext2 or ext3 on the one
hand, but a few comparingly rare selections on the other.


5.) Where are my platform specific drivers?

 X86 Platform Specific Device Drivers  --->

I get them if I strip down genkernel.

Now I started with the shell questionary and than I edit the result
with menuconfig. The submenu doesn't open or is empty.

Al

[gentoo-user] Re: Kernel questions

[Elmar Hinz]

Thank you all.