[gentoo-user] swap on ssd?

[gentoo-user] swap on ssd?

[William Kenworthy]

Has anyone tried swap on ssd?  - has it killed the drive prematurely? -
any other effects?

I have a system that is maxed with with 4G ram and tends to use swap
heavily at times which slows things down ... so I am thinking a small
ssd might help here.

Another slower alternative is a usb thumbdrive ... might try that later
today as I have some around ... again anyone tried this and found
something unexpected?

BillK

Re: [gentoo-user] swap on ssd?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Montag, 26. November 2012, 06:46:28 schrieb William Kenworthy:
> Has anyone tried swap on ssd?  - has it killed the drive prematurely? -
> any other effects?
> 
> I have a system that is maxed with with 4G ram and tends to use swap
> heavily at times which slows things down ... so I am thinking a small
> ssd might help here.

you know what helps even more? replacing those 4g with 8g.

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] swap on ssd?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 06:46:28 +0800, William Kenworthy wrote:

> Has anyone tried swap on ssd?  - has it killed the drive prematurely? -
> any other effects?

Yes, no, improved virtual memory performance.

SSDs aren't cheapo SD cards, they are meant to be written to. A storage
device that broke if you tried to store stuff on it would break trading
laws in any civilised country.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Top Oxymorons Number 32: Living dead

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Re: [gentoo-user] swap on ssd?

[felix]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 12:02:23AM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am Montag, 26. November 2012, 06:46:28 schrieb William Kenworthy:
> > Has anyone tried swap on ssd?  - has it killed the drive prematurely? -
> > any other effects?
> > 
> > I have a system that is maxed with with 4G ram and tends to use swap
____________________________^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > heavily at times which slows things down ... so I am thinking a small
> > ssd might help here.
> 
> you know what helps even more? replacing those 4g with 8g.

Not when it's maxed at 4g.

-- 
            ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
     Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
  GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o

Re: [gentoo-user] swap on ssd?

[William Kenworthy]

On Mon, 2012-11-26 at 00:02 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am Montag, 26. November 2012, 06:46:28 schrieb William Kenworthy:
> > Has anyone tried swap on ssd?  - has it killed the drive prematurely? -
> > any other effects?
> > 
> > I have a system that is maxed with with 4G ram and tends to use swap
> > heavily at times which slows things down ... so I am thinking a small
> > ssd might help here.
> 
> you know what helps even more? replacing those 4g with 8g.
> 

I would if I could - physical max is 4G ...

BillK

Re: [gentoo-user] swap on ssd?

[microcai]

2012/11/26 William Kenworthy <billk@iinet.net.au>:
> On Mon, 2012-11-26 at 00:02 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>> Am Montag, 26. November 2012, 06:46:28 schrieb William Kenworthy:
>> > Has anyone tried swap on ssd?  - has it killed the drive prematurely? -
>> > any other effects?
>> >
>> > I have a system that is maxed with with 4G ram and tends to use swap
>> > heavily at times which slows things down ... so I am thinking a small
>> > ssd might help here.
>>
>> you know what helps even more? replacing those 4g with 8g.
>>
>
> I would if I could - physical max is 4G ...

a new mainborad is cheaper than SSDs. sell the currently used one and
buy new one.

>
> BillK
>
>
>
>

Re: [gentoo-user] swap on ssd?

[Bill Kenworthy]

On Mon, 2012-11-26 at 08:29 +0800, microcai wrote:
> 2012/11/26 William Kenworthy <billk@iinet.net.au>:
> > On Mon, 2012-11-26 at 00:02 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> >> Am Montag, 26. November 2012, 06:46:28 schrieb William Kenworthy:
> >> > Has anyone tried swap on ssd?  - has it killed the drive prematurely? -
> >> > any other effects?
> >> >
> >> > I have a system that is maxed with with 4G ram and tends to use swap
> >> > heavily at times which slows things down ... so I am thinking a small
> >> > ssd might help here.
> >>
> >> you know what helps even more? replacing those 4g with 8g.
> >>
> >
> > I would if I could - physical max is 4G ...
> 
> a new mainborad is cheaper than SSDs. sell the currently used one and
> buy new one.
> 
> >
> > BillK
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 

I dont think a new quality mainboard, cpu and 8 or more GB ram costs
$au69 or less :)

I will upgrade eventually, but even then I would start with an ssd as
well.

BillK

Re: [gentoo-user] swap on ssd?

[微蔡]

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在 2012年11月26日 星期一 09:08:00，Bill Kenworthy 写道：
> On Mon, 2012-11-26 at 08:29 +0800, microcai wrote:
> > 2012/11/26 William Kenworthy <billk@iinet.net.au>:
> > > On Mon, 2012-11-26 at 00:02 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > >> Am Montag, 26. November 2012, 06:46:28 schrieb William Kenworthy:
> > >> > Has anyone tried swap on ssd?  - has it killed the drive prematurely?
> > >> > -
> > >> > any other effects?
> > >> > 
> > >> > I have a system that is maxed with with 4G ram and tends to use swap
> > >> > heavily at times which slows things down ... so I am thinking a small
> > >> > ssd might help here.
> > >> 
> > >> you know what helps even more? replacing those 4g with 8g.
> > > 
> > > I would if I could - physical max is 4G ...
> > 
> > a new mainborad is cheaper than SSDs. sell the currently used one and
> > buy new one.
> > 
> > > BillK
> 
> I dont think a new quality mainboard, cpu and 8 or more GB ram costs
> $au69 or less :)

you can sell old one, just fill the gap.

> 
> I will upgrade eventually, but even then I would start with an ssd as
> well.
> 
> BillK
-- 
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< gentoo rocks >
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Re: [gentoo-user] swap on ssd?

[Daniel Troeder]

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On 26.11.2012 00:18, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 06:46:28 +0800, William Kenworthy wrote:
> 
>> Has anyone tried swap on ssd?  - has it killed the drive prematurely? -
>> any other effects?
> 
> Yes, no, improved virtual memory performance.
+1

> SSDs aren't cheapo SD cards, they are meant to be written to. A storage
> device that broke if you tried to store stuff on it would break trading
> laws in any civilised country.
+1

Even if the SSD failed inside the 2 year guerantee time - you'd get a
new one for free. And in 2y you'll need the new mobo anyway - so there's
nothing to loose.


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# gpg --recv-keys --keyserver hkp://subkeys.pgp.net 0xBB9D4887


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Re: [gentoo-user] swap on ssd?

[Florian Philipp]

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Am 25.11.2012 23:46, schrieb William Kenworthy:
> Has anyone tried swap on ssd?  - has it killed the drive prematurely? -
> any other effects?
> 
> I have a system that is maxed with with 4G ram and tends to use swap
> heavily at times which slows things down ... so I am thinking a small
> ssd might help here.
> 

You should tell us which model you want to use. In any case, if it is
relatively recent, I don't think you can actually break it with write
cycles anymore unless you keep it 100% busy 24/7.

> Another slower alternative is a usb thumbdrive ... might try that later
> today as I have some around ... again anyone tried this and found
> something unexpected?
> 

Thumbdrives have much simpler wear leveling. They also use triple level
cells (TLC) which are even worse than the MLCs found in cheaper SSDs.
Not to forget that USB doesn't support proper DMA and therefore
increases CPU load. Long story short: Swapping on thumbdrives is as fast
as a snail riding a turtle -- but turtles have a longer life span.

Another idea:
You can try to reduce the swap load by using frontswap with zcache. It
compresses memory pages in RAM which would otherwise be swapped. You
still need swap but less often.

Enable
FRONTSWAP
CRYPTO
CONFIG_STAGING
CONFIG_ZCACHE

then add "zcache" to your boot parameters.

Regards,
Florian Philipp


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Re: [gentoo-user] swap on ssd?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Montag, 26. November 2012, 08:23:44 schrieb William Kenworthy:
> On Mon, 2012-11-26 at 00:02 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > Am Montag, 26. November 2012, 06:46:28 schrieb William Kenworthy:
> > > Has anyone tried swap on ssd?  - has it killed the drive prematurely? -
> > > any other effects?
> > > 
> > > I have a system that is maxed with with 4G ram and tends to use swap
> > > heavily at times which slows things down ... so I am thinking a small
> > > ssd might help here.
> > 
> > you know what helps even more? replacing those 4g with 8g.
> 
> I would if I could - physical max is 4G ...
> 

so the 4gb are sitting on the mobo itself? Or are we talking about some system 
from the bronze ages which does not accept sticks bigger than 512mb - and you 
put 8 into it?

either way, new board+8gb will make you happier than a destroyed ssd. 

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] swap on ssd?

[microcai]

2012/11/26 Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com>:
> Am Montag, 26. November 2012, 08:23:44 schrieb William Kenworthy:
>> On Mon, 2012-11-26 at 00:02 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>> > Am Montag, 26. November 2012, 06:46:28 schrieb William Kenworthy:
>> > > Has anyone tried swap on ssd?  - has it killed the drive prematurely? -
>> > > any other effects?
>> > >
>> > > I have a system that is maxed with with 4G ram and tends to use swap
>> > > heavily at times which slows things down ... so I am thinking a small
>> > > ssd might help here.
>> >
>> > you know what helps even more? replacing those 4g with 8g.
>>
>> I would if I could - physical max is 4G ...
>>
>
> so the 4gb are sitting on the mobo itself? Or are we talking about some system
> from the bronze ages which does not accept sticks bigger than 512mb - and you
> put 8 into it?
>
> either way, new board+8gb will make you happier than a destroyed ssd.

I suggest 16G if you'll buy next year. KDE will eat 2G itself. :)

>
> --
> #163933
>

Re: [gentoo-user] swap on ssd?

[William Kenworthy]

On Mon, 2012-11-26 at 09:17 +0100, Florian Philipp wrote:
> Am 25.11.2012 23:46, schrieb William Kenworthy:
> > Has anyone tried swap on ssd?  - has it killed the drive prematurely? -
> > any other effects?
> > 
> > I have a system that is maxed with with 4G ram and tends to use swap
> > heavily at times which slows things down ... so I am thinking a small
> > ssd might help here.
> > 
> 
> You should tell us which model you want to use. In any case, if it is
> relatively recent, I don't think you can actually break it with write
> cycles anymore unless you keep it 100% busy 24/7.
> 
> > Another slower alternative is a usb thumbdrive ... might try that later
> > today as I have some around ... again anyone tried this and found
> > something unexpected?
> > 
> 
> Thumbdrives have much simpler wear leveling. They also use triple level
> cells (TLC) which are even worse than the MLCs found in cheaper SSDs.
> Not to forget that USB doesn't support proper DMA and therefore
> increases CPU load. Long story short: Swapping on thumbdrives is as fast
> as a snail riding a turtle -- but turtles have a longer life span.
> 
> Another idea:
> You can try to reduce the swap load by using frontswap with zcache. It
> compresses memory pages in RAM which would otherwise be swapped. You
> still need swap but less often.
> 
> Enable
> FRONTSWAP
> CRYPTO
> CONFIG_STAGING
> CONFIG_ZCACHE
> 
> then add "zcache" to your boot parameters.
> 
> Regards,
> Florian Philipp
> 

Now thats interesting, more knobs to twist/buttons to push :)  

Thanks for that info!

My original question was on writing to swap destroying ssd's - but I
seem to remember that problem was more hot air than fact - born out by
the fact that no-one has jumped with an actual failure.  My work macbook
air (gentoo of course) has swap on the ssd, but with 8G ram its hardly
ever used unlike my home desktop/server which I am talking about here.
I did try an early intel ssd for a week (only drive in a dual core atom
system) before I had to give it back and it was certainly FAST.

Ive just had a a 500G drive expire so the hobby cash I was going to use
for the ssd has gone on a new WD 2TB - next month then :(

Was pushing a load of 109 at one stage trying to sync a small cephfs
cluster with one osd on the failing drive.

Yes, I would love to upgrade, but its also a good learning experience to
keep pushing the old rig - I dont get to play with this stuff otherwise.

Maybe Santa will call this year ...

BillK

Re: [gentoo-user] swap on ssd?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 19:48:58 +0800
microcai <microcai@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> 2012/11/26 Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com>:
> > Am Montag, 26. November 2012, 08:23:44 schrieb William Kenworthy:
> >> On Mon, 2012-11-26 at 00:02 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> >> > Am Montag, 26. November 2012, 06:46:28 schrieb William Kenworthy:
> >> > > Has anyone tried swap on ssd?  - has it killed the drive
> >> > > prematurely? - any other effects?
> >> > >
> >> > > I have a system that is maxed with with 4G ram and tends to
> >> > > use swap heavily at times which slows things down ... so I am
> >> > > thinking a small ssd might help here.
> >> >
> >> > you know what helps even more? replacing those 4g with 8g.
> >>
> >> I would if I could - physical max is 4G ...
> >>
> >
> > so the 4gb are sitting on the mobo itself? Or are we talking about
> > some system from the bronze ages which does not accept sticks
> > bigger than 512mb - and you put 8 into it?
> >
> > either way, new board+8gb will make you happier than a destroyed
> > ssd.
> 
> I suggest 16G if you'll buy next year. KDE will eat 2G itself. :)

No it won't.

The mere fact that you even typed that is absurd. 

KDE, like most sane software, will use ram intelligently. If you turn 
on semantic-desktop, akonadi and all the other bells and
whistles, it may appear to consume a lot of ram, but that's simply
because the software doesn't bother releasing the stuff when there is
oddles of it still left unused. Run KDE on a ram-tight machine and you
will see it uses nothing like what it uses on this here 16G notebook.

top will list krunner with something like 1G in the VIRT column, but
that doesn't mean krunner is actually using 1G, it means krunner may
*access* huge amounts of data in ram, and that total (here at least)
happens to be about 1G. This is because krunner can look at contacts,
current time, mail, calendar and $DEITY only knows what else to be able
to list them all in a cute plasmoid. It doesn't *use* anything more
than what KDE is already addressing, it just happens to be able to see
into it.

KDE (latest) runs just fine on 512M netbooks thanksverymuch


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] swap on ssd?

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 19:48:58 +0800
> microcai <microcai@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>
> I suggest 16G if you'll buy next year. KDE will eat 2G itself. :)
> No it won't.
>
> The mere fact that you even typed that is absurd. 
>
> KDE, like most sane software, will use ram intelligently. If you turn 
> on semantic-desktop, akonadi and all the other bells and
> whistles, it may appear to consume a lot of ram, but that's simply
> because the software doesn't bother releasing the stuff when there is
> oddles of it still left unused. Run KDE on a ram-tight machine and you
> will see it uses nothing like what it uses on this here 16G notebook.
>
> top will list krunner with something like 1G in the VIRT column, but
> that doesn't mean krunner is actually using 1G, it means krunner may
> *access* huge amounts of data in ram, and that total (here at least)
> happens to be about 1G. This is because krunner can look at contacts,
> current time, mail, calendar and $DEITY only knows what else to be able
> to list them all in a cute plasmoid. It doesn't *use* anything more
> than what KDE is already addressing, it just happens to be able to see
> into it.
>
> KDE (latest) runs just fine on 512M netbooks thanksverymuch
>
>

I agree.  I have a lot of things turned off here but KDE4 doesn't seem
to be much if any worse than KDE3 on memory usage.  It seems to me that
KDE4 does a better job than KDE3 in a lot of areas.  Yea, I have 16Gbs
of ram here but I rarely go over 2Gbs and most of that is things not
KDE, like Seamonkey, Firefox etc.  I'm not counting cache. 

People seem to forget that Linux uses memory different.  It's also one
reason windoze can run with bad memory and Linux can't.  If the bad ram
is at the upper addresses, windoze may never use it but Linux will
unless a person reboots a lot.  I had to replace a stick of memory a
month or so ago in my brother's rig because of this.  I switched him to
Linux, Kubuntu I regret, and it got flakey.  I ran memtest on it and
sure enough, it was bad at the upper end.  He only has 768Mbs.  Maxed
out to I'm afraid. 

KDE4 using 2Gbs, I just don't see that happening.  KDE5 or KDE6 maybe
but doubtful.  That's a lot of memory. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

[gentoo-user] Re: swap on ssd?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2012-11-25, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> A storage device that broke if you tried to store stuff on it would
> break trading laws in any civilised country.

That wouldn't stop most large companies from selling them anyway...

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I'm also pre-POURED
                                  at               pre-MEDITATED and
                              gmail.com            pre-RAPHAELITE!!