[gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[walt]

I have a sore head from banging it on the wall for the last week, but it's beginning to feel better already.  I just (finally!) got all my needed services up and running at boot time, and it's *fast*.  Rebooting and shutdown are lightning fast now, a matter of five seconds or so. Cool :)

I actually wrote some systemd unit files for myself and debugged them mostly by trying random variations on the basic theme.  I'm very sure that openrc would have been as bad or worse if I'd needed to write the scripts myself.

You Lennart haters out there (and I was one of you not so long ago ;) now I think he's not so bad after all.  He just doesn't know yet how to explain things properly to old farts.

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[pk]

On 2012-11-09 23:53, walt wrote:

> You Lennart haters out there (and I was one of you not so long ago ;)
> now I think he's not so bad after all.  He just doesn't know yet how to
> explain things properly to old farts.

Good for you. I really don't see the point in preaching systemd's
greatness (or Lennart's). I'm not going to try it anyway. Also, I really
don't see a point in booting fast (and I don't see anything wrong with
openrc). So why do you feel the need to preach? Just curious...

Best regards

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Dale]

pk wrote:
> On 2012-11-09 23:53, walt wrote:
>
>> You Lennart haters out there (and I was one of you not so long ago ;)
>> now I think he's not so bad after all.  He just doesn't know yet how to
>> explain things properly to old farts.
> Good for you. I really don't see the point in preaching systemd's
> greatness (or Lennart's). I'm not going to try it anyway. Also, I really
> don't see a point in booting fast (and I don't see anything wrong with
> openrc). So why do you feel the need to preach? Just curious...
>
> Best regards
>
> Peter K
>
>


I don't worry about boot up times much either.  Here is why:

root@fireball / # uptime
 18:09:00 up 48 days, 11:18,  3 users,  load average: 0.18, 0.25, 0.30
root@fireball / #


As long as the local power company gives me power, I'm running.  My rig,
fast as it might be, pulls significantly less power than my old rig that
is only about a tenth as fast.  So, faster rig, less power.  I can
handle that. 

As long as I can have good uptimes, I just don't see any need to convert
to something I only use once every couple months. 

Now for someone who has to reboot a lot, sounds windowish doesn't it,
then by all means convert to systemd or whatever suites your fancy.  As
always, what works for one doesn't suite the needs of another.  That's
why we use Gentoo.  We get to use what suites us.  ;-) 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Keith Dart]

Re
509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.se509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
Dale said:
> I don't worry about boot up times much either.  Here is why:


I was thinking of converting to systemd on my Gentoo laptop. There I do
boot frequently, and could benefit from quicker bootups. So I'm happy
to some success stories with it, since I've been holding off on taking
that plunge. 


-- Keith


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 7:11 PM, Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz> wrote:
> Re
> 509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.se509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
> Dale said:
>> I don't worry about boot up times much either.  Here is why:
>
>
> I was thinking of converting to systemd on my Gentoo laptop. There I do
> boot frequently, and could benefit from quicker bootups.

As 微蔡 said, fast boots is only one of the many advantages that systemd
offers. It's probably the most user-visible, though.

> So I'm happy
> to some success stories with it, since I've been holding off on taking
> that plunge.

We have had some of those lately. I believe João Matos just did the
switch some weeks ago, using KDE. I did it almost two years ago,
around December 2010, using GNOME (then 2, now 3). I haven't heard any
insurmountable problem when switching: if you are a regular desktop or
simple server user, it probably will work without you needing to do
anything special (except using init=/usr/bin/systemd in your kernel
command line and maybe needing to reemerge a couple of packages with
USE="systemd"). If you use something more complicated (RAID, LVM, NFS,
that kind of stuff), you probably will  need to enable or perhaps
change a couple of services, but that's it. If you use a not very
common daemon, maybe you will need to write its service file; but it's
ridiculous easy (specially when compared to sysvinit scripts).

Just a word of advice: if you are a normal laptop user, systemd has
replaced most of the functionality of consolekit; so if you boot with
systemd, several packages need to have enable the systemd USE flag
(and the consolekit one disabled). In particular, pambase and polkit
need to set either systemd or consolekit, but cannot set both.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Keith Dart]

Re
20121109171149.1d8a3e18@dartworks.biz20121109171149.1d8a3e18@dartworks.biz509D9C62.9040909@gmail.com509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
Canek Peláez Valdés said:
> Just a word of advice: if you are a normal laptop user, systemd has
> replaced most of the functionality of consolekit; so if you boot with
> systemd, several packages need to have enable the systemd USE flag
> (and the consolekit one disabled). In particular, pambase and polkit
> need to set either systemd or consolekit, but cannot set both.


Thanks for the advice! So now I'm motivated to go do it. :)



-- Keith


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Keith Dart]

Re
20121109171149.1d8a3e18@dartworks.biz20121109171149.1d8a3e18@dartworks.biz509D9C62.9040909@gmail.com509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
Canek Peláez Valdés said:
> Just a word of advice: if you are a normal laptop user, systemd has
> replaced most of the functionality of consolekit; so if you boot with
> systemd, several packages need to have enable the systemd USE flag
> (and the consolekit one disabled). In particular, pambase and polkit
> need to set either systemd or consolekit, but cannot set both.


Ok, it's also helpful to add the systemd overlay and emerge
"systemd-units" and "baselayout-systemd". 

You also have to enable by hand most services. There wasn't one for
lightdm (to get graphical login), but "slim" had one so I just switched
to that. Turns out I like that one better, anyway. :-)


-- Keith


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:53 PM, Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz> wrote:
> Re
> 20121109171149.1d8a3e18@dartworks.biz20121109171149.1d8a3e18@dartworks.biz509D9C62.9040909@gmail.com509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
> Canek Peláez Valdés said:
>> Just a word of advice: if you are a normal laptop user, systemd has
>> replaced most of the functionality of consolekit; so if you boot with
>> systemd, several packages need to have enable the systemd USE flag
>> (and the consolekit one disabled). In particular, pambase and polkit
>> need to set either systemd or consolekit, but cannot set both.
>
>
> Ok, it's also helpful to add the systemd overlay and emerge
> "systemd-units" and "baselayout-systemd".

Mmmh. I stopped using that overlay years ago. It's still maintained?

> You also have to enable by hand most services. There wasn't one for
> lightdm (to get graphical login), but "slim" had one so I just switched
> to that. Turns out I like that one better, anyway. :-)

You can also link /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service to your
preferred login manager. Recent versions of systemd will take care of
everything else.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Keith Dart]

Re
20121111175313.54b9acf1@dartworks.biz20121111175313.54b9acf1@dartworks.bizCADPrc80EwExpbdcJX1a+aE0DA=iopqw-QOaozmUBJCs5FGew-g@mail.gmail.com20121109171149.1d8a3e18@dartworks.biz509D9C62.9040909@gmail.com509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
Canek Peláez Valdés said:
> Mmmh. I stopped using that overlay years ago. It's still maintained?

Must be, it had all the necessary .service files that were missing from
the systemd install. You probably still had those laying around from
when you did use the overlay.
 
> You can also link /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service to your
> preferred login manager. Recent versions of systemd will take care of
> everything else.

Except that there was no service file for my preferred login manager.
But I saw there was one installed for the "slim" manager. So rather
than fight, I switched. I also googled a little and found that lightdm
has an open bug for requesting systemd support.... Anyway, works fine
with slim, and it turns out I like it better anyway. Especially since
lightdm-gtk-greeter recently broke the background image support.


-- Keith


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 8:58 PM, Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz> wrote:
> Re
> 20121111175313.54b9acf1@dartworks.biz20121111175313.54b9acf1@dartworks.bizCADPrc80EwExpbdcJX1a+aE0DA=iopqw-QOaozmUBJCs5FGew-g@mail.gmail.com20121109171149.1d8a3e18@dartworks.biz509D9C62.9040909@gmail.com509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
> Canek Peláez Valdés said:
>> Mmmh. I stopped using that overlay years ago. It's still maintained?
>
> Must be, it had all the necessary .service files that were missing from
> the systemd install.

That doesn't mean anything; the format of the .service files is really
simple and most of them will work from systemd-1 to systemd-195.

> You probably still had those laying around from
> when you did use the overlay.

No, I do not. Which service files do you need from the package? The
only one I needed (and wasn't included in its own package) was for
vixie-cron.

>> You can also link /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service to your
>> preferred login manager. Recent versions of systemd will take care of
>> everything else.
>
> Except that there was no service file for my preferred login manager.
> But I saw there was one installed for the "slim" manager. So rather
> than fight, I switched. I also googled a little and found that lightdm
> has an open bug for requesting systemd support.... Anyway, works fine
> with slim, and it turns out I like it better anyway. Especially since
> lightdm-gtk-greeter recently broke the background image support.

systemd "support" is generally optional, not mandatory. In other
words, if lightdm works with OpenRC, it will work with systemd; maybe
it will not integrate a lot of features from it, but it will work as
it works in OpenRC: as a standalone service.

I'm pretty sure a Google search will give you several instances of
service files for lightdm (or wathever login manager you want to use).

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Keith Dart]

Re
20121111185801.58964939@dartworks.biz20121111185801.58964939@dartworks.bizCADPrc83+5zUQ+GzCSvyHhZa7BZfMqqagZCosktasOY1sdhCx0Q@mail.gmail.com20121111175313.54b9acf1@dartworks.bizCADPrc80EwExpbdcJX1a+aE0DA=iopqw-QOaozmUBJCs5FGew-g@mail.gmail.com20121109171149.1d8a3e18@dartworks.biz509D9C62.9040909@gmail.com509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
Canek Peláez Valdés said:
> That doesn't mean anything; the format of the .service files is really
> simple and most of them will work from systemd-1 to systemd-195.

As long as you know what the dependencies are and how to invoke it (is
it a deamon, or not?). Yes you can figure all that out and write all
files but it would take some time. the overlay saved me a lot of time. 

> No, I do not. Which service files do you need from the package? The
> only one I needed (and wasn't included in its own package) was for
> vixie-cron.

And syslog-ng, and others I forgot. These have already been done in the
overlay. 

So after some experience with it, I see that booting is a little
faster, but not much. But my xfce session startup seems to take longer
now. hm... It's also less clear how to manage this thing. The systemadm
tool segfaults on me.  on the plus side the shutdown is much faster.



-- Keith


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 9:27 PM, Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz> wrote:
> Re
> 20121111185801.58964939@dartworks.biz20121111185801.58964939@dartworks.bizCADPrc83+5zUQ+GzCSvyHhZa7BZfMqqagZCosktasOY1sdhCx0Q@mail.gmail.com20121111175313.54b9acf1@dartworks.bizCADPrc80EwExpbdcJX1a+aE0DA=iopqw-QOaozmUBJCs5FGew-g@mail.gmail.com20121109171149.1d8a3e18@dartworks.biz509D9C62.9040909@gmail.com509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
> Canek Peláez Valdés said:
>> That doesn't mean anything; the format of the .service files is really
>> simple and most of them will work from systemd-1 to systemd-195.
>
> As long as you know what the dependencies are and how to invoke it (is
> it a deamon, or not?). Yes you can figure all that out and write all
> files but it would take some time. the overlay saved me a lot of time.

I can see now that the overlay is indeed being maintained.

>> No, I do not. Which service files do you need from the package? The
>> only one I needed (and wasn't included in its own package) was for
>> vixie-cron.
>
> And syslog-ng, and others I forgot. These have already been done in the
> overlay.

I used rsyslog, which contains its own service file (like most of the
packages I use). Now I'm using only the journal.

> So after some experience with it, I see that booting is a little
> faster, but not much. But my xfce session startup seems to take longer
> now.

That it's weird. What does "systemd-analyze blame" say after a fresh boot?

> hm... It's also less clear how to manage this thing. The systemadm
> tool segfaults on me.

That is a bug, and probably related to the slow boot.

>  on the plus side the shutdown is much faster.

If you give us more information, perhaps we can try to figure out the issues.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Keith Dart]

Re
20121111192731.149dc082@dartworks.biz20121111192731.149dc082@dartworks.bizCADPrc83TGeegA0UXadMEy=B62xZYOE50bqfw+dxDJ8f=FkPTHA@mail.gmail.com20121111185801.58964939@dartworks.bizCADPrc83+5zUQ+GzCSvyHhZa7BZfMqqagZCosktasOY1sdhCx0Q@mail.gmail.com20121111175313.54b9acf1@dartworks.bizCADPrc80EwExpbdcJX1a+aE0DA=iopqw-QOaozmUBJCs5FGew-g@mail.gmail.com20121109171149.1d8a3e18@dartworks.biz509D9C62.9040909@gmail.com509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
Canek Peláez Valdés said:
> That it's weird. What does "systemd-analyze blame" say after a fresh
> boot?


Something related to consolekit was taking by far the most time. But I
thought I was supposed to remove that. So I make USE include
-consolekit, and removed console kit, and did "emerge -uD --newuse
world", but yet, pambase insists on pulling in consolekit no matter
what. I compile it separate (emerge -1 ...) without consolekit USE, and
the works. But whenever I update consolekit wants get added again.

Anyway, right now I have it removed and it does come up faster without
it. 

But another thing I miss is knowing where it is in the boot process.
The systemd doesn't tell me anything.


-- Keith


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz> wrote:
> Re
> 20121111192731.149dc082@dartworks.biz20121111192731.149dc082@dartworks.bizCADPrc83TGeegA0UXadMEy=B62xZYOE50bqfw+dxDJ8f=FkPTHA@mail.gmail.com20121111185801.58964939@dartworks.bizCADPrc83+5zUQ+GzCSvyHhZa7BZfMqqagZCosktasOY1sdhCx0Q@mail.gmail.com20121111175313.54b9acf1@dartworks.bizCADPrc80EwExpbdcJX1a+aE0DA=iopqw-QOaozmUBJCs5FGew-g@mail.gmail.com20121109171149.1d8a3e18@dartworks.biz509D9C62.9040909@gmail.com509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
> Canek Peláez Valdés said:
>> That it's weird. What does "systemd-analyze blame" say after a fresh
>> boot?
>
>
> Something related to consolekit was taking by far the most time. But I
> thought I was supposed to remove that. So I make USE include
> -consolekit, and removed console kit, and did "emerge -uD --newuse
> world", but yet, pambase insists on pulling in consolekit no matter
> what. I compile it separate (emerge -1 ...) without consolekit USE, and
> the works. But whenever I update consolekit wants get added again.

Do an "equery depends pambase" and see what it's trying to pull
pambase with consolekit. Perhaps do you have something in
/etc/portage/package.use?

> Anyway, right now I have it removed and it does come up faster without
> it.

Cool.

> But another thing I miss is knowing where it is in the boot process.
> The systemd doesn't tell me anything.

Actually it does; if you are not using plymouth (or another splash),
the standard listing of services gets printed on the console, with
even the "[ OK ]" that a lot of people like. A copy of this output
gets logged in /var/log/boot.log.

Also, you can boot with systemd.log_target=kmsg
systemd.log_level=debug, and everything (which is a lot) will get
stored in the kernel ring buffer, so you can check it out afterwards
with dmesg.

The thing with this output is that, when properly configured, systemd
is just too fast for it to be useful; my laptop boots so fast that I
cannot even see it even if I disable plymouth.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Keith Dart]

Re
20121112134014.632fa8c7@dartworks.biz20121112134014.632fa8c7@dartworks.bizCADPrc80e46k1JN3jE0Y=Xobbo7Vh6jotc=dnhzLo9-Z_vj+wkw@mail.gmail.com20121111192731.149dc082@dartworks.bizCADPrc83TGeegA0UXadMEy=B62xZYOE50bqfw+dxDJ8f=FkPTHA@mail.gmail.com20121111185801.58964939@dartworks.bizCADPrc83+5zUQ+GzCSvyHhZa7BZfMqqagZCosktasOY1sdhCx0Q@mail.gmail.com20121111175313.54b9acf1@dartworks.bizCADPrc80EwExpbdcJX1a+aE0DA=iopqw-QOaozmUBJCs5FGew-g@mail.gmail.com20121109171149.1d8a3e18@dartworks.biz509D9C62.9040909@gmail.com509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
Canek Peláez Valdés said:
> Do an "equery depends pambase" and see what it's trying to pull
> pambase with consolekit. Perhaps do you have something in
> /etc/portage/package.use?


It seems like polkit is actually the culprit.

 * These packages depend on pambase:
app-admin/sudo-1.8.6_p3 (pam ? sys-auth/pambase)
net-misc/openssh-6.1_p1 (pam ? >=sys-auth/pambase-20081028)
sys-apps/openrc-0.11.5 (pam ? sys-auth/pambase)
sys-apps/shadow-4.1.5.1 (pam ? >=sys-auth/pambase-20120417)
sys-auth/polkit-0.107-r1 (pam ? sys-auth/pambase)
                         (systemd ? sys-auth/pambase[systemd])
                         (!systemd ? sys-auth/pambase[consolekit])
sys-libs/pam-1.1.6 (sys-auth/pambase)
x11-misc/lightdm-1.4.0 (>=sys-auth/pambase-20101024-r2)


diffing polkit 104 and 107 ebuilds shows some changes in the systemd
related USE selection logic. 

I DO also have the systemd USE flag set. Yet, polkit is requiring
pambase with consolekit.



-- Keith


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 5:11 PM, Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz> wrote:
> Re
> 20121112134014.632fa8c7@dartworks.biz20121112134014.632fa8c7@dartworks.bizCADPrc80e46k1JN3jE0Y=Xobbo7Vh6jotc=dnhzLo9-Z_vj+wkw@mail.gmail.com20121111192731.149dc082@dartworks.bizCADPrc83TGeegA0UXadMEy=B62xZYOE50bqfw+dxDJ8f=FkPTHA@mail.gmail.com20121111185801.58964939@dartworks.bizCADPrc83+5zUQ+GzCSvyHhZa7BZfMqqagZCosktasOY1sdhCx0Q@mail.gmail.com20121111175313.54b9acf1@dartworks.bizCADPrc80EwExpbdcJX1a+aE0DA=iopqw-QOaozmUBJCs5FGew-g@mail.gmail.com20121109171149.1d8a3e18@dartworks.biz509D9C62.9040909@gmail.com509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
> Canek Peláez Valdés said:
>> Do an "equery depends pambase" and see what it's trying to pull
>> pambase with consolekit. Perhaps do you have something in
>> /etc/portage/package.use?
>
>
> It seems like polkit is actually the culprit.
>
>  * These packages depend on pambase:
> app-admin/sudo-1.8.6_p3 (pam ? sys-auth/pambase)
> net-misc/openssh-6.1_p1 (pam ? >=sys-auth/pambase-20081028)
> sys-apps/openrc-0.11.5 (pam ? sys-auth/pambase)
> sys-apps/shadow-4.1.5.1 (pam ? >=sys-auth/pambase-20120417)
> sys-auth/polkit-0.107-r1 (pam ? sys-auth/pambase)
>                          (systemd ? sys-auth/pambase[systemd])
>                          (!systemd ? sys-auth/pambase[consolekit])
> sys-libs/pam-1.1.6 (sys-auth/pambase)
> x11-misc/lightdm-1.4.0 (>=sys-auth/pambase-20101024-r2)
>
>
> diffing polkit 104 and 107 ebuilds shows some changes in the systemd
> related USE selection logic.
>
> I DO also have the systemd USE flag set. Yet, polkit is requiring
> pambase with consolekit.

Enable the systemd USE flag in polkit and it will not require consolekit:

pam? (
                systemd? ( sys-auth/pambase[systemd] )
                !systemd? ( sys-auth/pambase[consolekit] )
                )

That means: you want pam?, then if you want systemd, I require pambase
with systemd; otherwise, I require pambase with consolekit.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Keith Dart]

Re
20121112151105.44071321@dartworks.biz20121112151105.44071321@dartworks.bizCADPrc83npGRPaaNfJqSHYRWb+CJWaU4GtU1CqaR=_Cc9q6eokQ@mail.gmail.com20121112134014.632fa8c7@dartworks.bizCADPrc80e46k1JN3jE0Y=Xobbo7Vh6jotc=dnhzLo9-Z_vj+wkw@mail.gmail.com20121111192731.149dc082@dartworks.bizCADPrc83TGeegA0UXadMEy=B62xZYOE50bqfw+dxDJ8f=FkPTHA@mail.gmail.com20121111185801.58964939@dartworks.bizCADPrc83+5zUQ+GzCSvyHhZa7BZfMqqagZCosktasOY1sdhCx0Q@mail.gmail.com20121111175313.54b9acf1@dartworks.bizCADPrc80EwExpbdcJX1a+aE0DA=iopqw-QOaozmUBJCs5FGew-g@mail.gmail.com20121109171149.1d8a3e18@dartworks.biz509D9C62.9040909@gmail.com509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
Canek Peláez Valdés said:
> That means: you want pam?, then if you want systemd, I require pambase
> with systemd; otherwise, I require pambase with consolekit.


I already have it set globally, but I just added it specially to
package.use just to "make sure".  Same result. Something is wrong with
the logic there. 


-- Keith


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz> wrote:
> Re
> 20121112151105.44071321@dartworks.biz20121112151105.44071321@dartworks.bizCADPrc83npGRPaaNfJqSHYRWb+CJWaU4GtU1CqaR=_Cc9q6eokQ@mail.gmail.com20121112134014.632fa8c7@dartworks.bizCADPrc80e46k1JN3jE0Y=Xobbo7Vh6jotc=dnhzLo9-Z_vj+wkw@mail.gmail.com20121111192731.149dc082@dartworks.bizCADPrc83TGeegA0UXadMEy=B62xZYOE50bqfw+dxDJ8f=FkPTHA@mail.gmail.com20121111185801.58964939@dartworks.bizCADPrc83+5zUQ+GzCSvyHhZa7BZfMqqagZCosktasOY1sdhCx0Q@mail.gmail.com20121111175313.54b9acf1@dartworks.bizCADPrc80EwExpbdcJX1a+aE0DA=iopqw-QOaozmUBJCs5FGew-g@mail.gmail.com20121109171149.1d8a3e18@dartworks.biz509D9C62.9040909@gmail.com509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
> Canek Peláez Valdés said:
>> That means: you want pam?, then if you want systemd, I require pambase
>> with systemd; otherwise, I require pambase with consolekit.
>
>
> I already have it set globally, but I just added it specially to
> package.use just to "make sure".  Same result. Something is wrong with
> the logic there.

Yeah, portage is doing something weird here (or you have some rogue
config files). Did you move make.conf from /etc to /etc/portage? It is
possible that the old copy is still in /etc?

What does "emerge -1pv sys-auth/polkit" says?

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Keith Dart]

Re
20121112152513.62482d17@dartworks.biz20121112152513.62482d17@dartworks.bizCADPrc81rNbM2XLnOsANLsY5dL-8o2Lmdwe1+8+GNrtNuxV4h0w@mail.gmail.com20121112151105.44071321@dartworks.bizCADPrc83npGRPaaNfJqSHYRWb+CJWaU4GtU1CqaR=_Cc9q6eokQ@mail.gmail.com20121112134014.632fa8c7@dartworks.bizCADPrc80e46k1JN3jE0Y=Xobbo7Vh6jotc=dnhzLo9-Z_vj+wkw@mail.gmail.com20121111192731.149dc082@dartworks.bizCADPrc83TGeegA0UXadMEy=B62xZYOE50bqfw+dxDJ8f=FkPTHA@mail.gmail.com20121111185801.58964939@dartworks.bizCADPrc83+5zUQ+GzCSvyHhZa7BZfMqqagZCosktasOY1sdhCx0Q@mail.gmail.com20121111175313.54b9acf1@dartworks.bizCADPrc80EwExpbdcJX1a+aE0DA=iopqw-QOaozmUBJCs5FGew-g@mail.gmail.com20121109171149.1d8a3e18@dartworks.biz509D9C62.9040909@gmail.com509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
Canek Peláez Valdés said:
> What does "emerge -1pv sys-auth/polkit" says?

The pam use flag has always been set globally. 

Here is the output:


venus ~ # emerge -1pv sys-auth/polkit

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild  N     ] sys-auth/consolekit-0.4.5_p20120320-r1  USE="acl pam policykit -debug -doc (-selinux) {-test}" 0 kB
[ebuild   R    ] sys-auth/pambase-20120417-r1  USE="consolekit* cracklib gnome-keyring sha512 systemd -debug -minimal -mktemp -pam_k
rb5 -pam_ssh -passwdqc (-selinux)" 0 kB
[ebuild   R    ] sys-auth/polkit-0.107-r1  USE="examples gtk introspection nls pam -kde (-selinux) (-systemd)" 0 kB

Total: 3 packages (1 new, 2 reinstalls), Size of downloads: 0 kB

The following USE changes are necessary to proceed:
#required by sys-auth/polkit-0.107-r1, required by sys-auth/polkit (argument)
>=sys-auth/consolekit-0.4.5_p20120320-r1 policykit
#required by sys-auth/polkit-0.107-r1[pam], required by sys-auth/consolekit-0.4.5_p20120320-r1[policykit]
>=sys-auth/pambase-20120417-r1 consolekit

Usually package.use entry should also work:

venus ~ # grep polkit /etc/portage/package.use 
sys-auth/polkit systemd

Yet something is forcing systemd flag off for polkit, but I can't figure out what it is. 


-- Keith


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 5:53 PM, Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz> wrote:
> Re
> 20121112152513.62482d17@dartworks.biz20121112152513.62482d17@dartworks.bizCADPrc81rNbM2XLnOsANLsY5dL-8o2Lmdwe1+8+GNrtNuxV4h0w@mail.gmail.com20121112151105.44071321@dartworks.bizCADPrc83npGRPaaNfJqSHYRWb+CJWaU4GtU1CqaR=_Cc9q6eokQ@mail.gmail.com20121112134014.632fa8c7@dartworks.bizCADPrc80e46k1JN3jE0Y=Xobbo7Vh6jotc=dnhzLo9-Z_vj+wkw@mail.gmail.com20121111192731.149dc082@dartworks.bizCADPrc83TGeegA0UXadMEy=B62xZYOE50bqfw+dxDJ8f=FkPTHA@mail.gmail.com20121111185801.58964939@dartworks.bizCADPrc83+5zUQ+GzCSvyHhZa7BZfMqqagZCosktasOY1sdhCx0Q@mail.gmail.com20121111175313.54b9acf1@dartworks.bizCADPrc80EwExpbdcJX1a+aE0DA=iopqw-QOaozmUBJCs5FGew-g@mail.gmail.com20121109171149.1d8a3e18@dartworks.biz509D9C62.9040909@gmail.com509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
> Canek Peláez Valdés said:
>> What does "emerge -1pv sys-auth/polkit" says?
>
> The pam use flag has always been set globally.
>
> Here is the output:
>
>
> venus ~ # emerge -1pv sys-auth/polkit
>
> These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
>
> Calculating dependencies... done!
> [ebuild  N     ] sys-auth/consolekit-0.4.5_p20120320-r1  USE="acl pam policykit -debug -doc (-selinux) {-test}" 0 kB
> [ebuild   R    ] sys-auth/pambase-20120417-r1  USE="consolekit* cracklib gnome-keyring sha512 systemd -debug -minimal -mktemp -pam_k
> rb5 -pam_ssh -passwdqc (-selinux)" 0 kB
> [ebuild   R    ] sys-auth/polkit-0.107-r1  USE="examples gtk introspection nls pam -kde (-selinux) (-systemd)" 0 kB
>
> Total: 3 packages (1 new, 2 reinstalls), Size of downloads: 0 kB
>
> The following USE changes are necessary to proceed:
> #required by sys-auth/polkit-0.107-r1, required by sys-auth/polkit (argument)
>>=sys-auth/consolekit-0.4.5_p20120320-r1 policykit
> #required by sys-auth/polkit-0.107-r1[pam], required by sys-auth/consolekit-0.4.5_p20120320-r1[policykit]
>>=sys-auth/pambase-20120417-r1 consolekit
>
> Usually package.use entry should also work:
>
> venus ~ # grep polkit /etc/portage/package.use
> sys-auth/polkit systemd
>
> Yet something is forcing systemd flag off for polkit, but I can't figure out what it is.

Oops, sorry, I forgot about it. They included systemd in
package.use.mask, since it conflicts with consolekit (which is the
standard in Gentoo still). You need to add this to
/etc/portage/profile/package.use.mask:

sys-auth/polkit			-systemd

Then you will be able to use polkit with systemd, and consolekit will
be expunged from your system.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Keith Dart]

Re
20121112155355.3766e304@dartworks.biz20121112155355.3766e304@dartworks.bizCADPrc83xjvcJgkRW32iWK_D_tyJN_gvaMOCR58CiFeZxwihxow@mail.gmail.com20121112152513.62482d17@dartworks.bizCADPrc81rNbM2XLnOsANLsY5dL-8o2Lmdwe1+8+GNrtNuxV4h0w@mail.gmail.com20121112151105.44071321@dartworks.bizCADPrc83npGRPaaNfJqSHYRWb+CJWaU4GtU1CqaR=_Cc9q6eokQ@mail.gmail.com20121112134014.632fa8c7@dartworks.bizCADPrc80e46k1JN3jE0Y=Xobbo7Vh6jotc=dnhzLo9-Z_vj+wkw@mail.gmail.com20121111192731.149dc082@dartworks.bizCADPrc83TGeegA0UXadMEy=B62xZYOE50bqfw+dxDJ8f=FkPTHA@mail.gmail.com20121111185801.58964939@dartworks.bizCADPrc83+5zUQ+GzCSvyHhZa7BZfMqqagZCosktasOY1sdhCx0Q@mail.gmail.com20121111175313.54b9acf1@dartworks.bizCADPrc80EwExpbdcJX1a+aE0DA=iopqw-QOaozmUBJCs5FGew-g@mail.gmail.com20121109171149.1d8a3e18@dartworks.biz509D9C62.9040909@gmail.com509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
Canek Peláez Valdés said:
> You need to add this to
> /etc/portage/profile/package.use.mask:
> 
> sys-auth/polkit			-systemd
> 
> Then you will be able to use polkit with systemd, and consolekit will
> be expunged from your system


Thanks a lot, that fixed it.  Now it seems to work much better.

Now I have to change some habits... such as when I switch to the
console I may sometimes do "/etc/init.d/xdm stop", and "/etc/init.d/gpm
start". Now I can't do that. It doesn't seem gpm has a .start file, so
I guess I'll have to make one myself.  Where do I add that? It looks
like /etc/systemd/user? 



-- Keith


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Keith Dart]

Re
20121112134014.632fa8c7@dartworks.biz20121112134014.632fa8c7@dartworks.bizCADPrc80e46k1JN3jE0Y=Xobbo7Vh6jotc=dnhzLo9-Z_vj+wkw@mail.gmail.com20121111192731.149dc082@dartworks.bizCADPrc83TGeegA0UXadMEy=B62xZYOE50bqfw+dxDJ8f=FkPTHA@mail.gmail.com20121111185801.58964939@dartworks.bizCADPrc83+5zUQ+GzCSvyHhZa7BZfMqqagZCosktasOY1sdhCx0Q@mail.gmail.com20121111175313.54b9acf1@dartworks.bizCADPrc80EwExpbdcJX1a+aE0DA=iopqw-QOaozmUBJCs5FGew-g@mail.gmail.com20121109171149.1d8a3e18@dartworks.biz509D9C62.9040909@gmail.com509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
Canek Peláez Valdés said:
> Do an "equery depends pambase" and see what it's trying to pull
> pambase with consolekit. Perhaps do you have something in
> /etc/portage/package.use?


Just synced with latest portage and here is what emerge is currently
telling me:

venus ~ # emerge -uDpv --newuse world

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild  N     ] sci-libs/suitesparseconfig-4.0.2  USE="-static-libs"
318 kB [ebuild     U  ] sci-libs/colamd-2.8.0 [2.7.4]
USE="-static-libs" 362 kB [ebuild     U  ] dev-perl/Net-HTTP-6.50.0
[6.30.0] 16 kB
[ebuild     U  ] dev-python/pyxdg-0.24 [0.23] USE="{-test%} (-examples%*)" 46 kB
[ebuild     U  ] sys-apps/mlocate-0.26 [0.25] USE="nls (-selinux)" 351 kB
[ebuild     U  ] x11-drivers/xf86-video-intel-2.20.13 [2.20.12] USE="dri sna udev xvmc -glamor -uxa" 1,611 kB
[ebuild     U  ] net-misc/aria2-1.15.2 [1.15.0] USE="bittorrent gnutls libxml2%* nettle* nls scripts sqlite ssl xmlrpc -adns% -metal
ink {-test} (-ares%) (-bash-completion%*) (-doc%) (-expat%*)" 1,996 kB
[ebuild     U  ] app-text/calibre-0.9.6 [0.9.5] USE="udisks" 26,706 kB
[ebuild  N     ] sys-auth/consolekit-0.4.5_p20120320-r1  USE="acl pam policykit -debug -doc (-selinux) {-test}" 0 kB
[ebuild   R    ] sys-auth/pambase-20120417-r1  USE="consolekit* cracklib gnome-keyring sha512 systemd -debug -minimal -mktemp -pam_k
rb5 -pam_ssh -passwdqc (-selinux)" 0 kB

Total: 10 packages (7 upgrades, 2 new, 1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 31,403 kB

The following USE changes are necessary to proceed:
#required by sys-auth/polkit-0.107-r1, required by @selected, required by @world (argument)
>=sys-auth/consolekit-0.4.5_p20120320-r1 policykit
#required by sys-auth/polkit-0.107-r1[pam], required by sys-auth/consolekit-0.4.5_p20120320-r1[policykit]
>=sys-auth/pambase-20120417-r1 consolekit



-- Keith


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Dale]

Keith Dart wrote:
> Re
> 509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.se509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
> Dale said:
>> I don't worry about boot up times much either.  Here is why:
>
> I was thinking of converting to systemd on my Gentoo laptop. There I do
> boot frequently, and could benefit from quicker bootups. So I'm happy
> to some success stories with it, since I've been holding off on taking
> that plunge. 
>
>
> -- Keith
>
>


I mentioned in my post that there are reasons some may want to use
systemd.  Here it is:

"Now for someone who has to reboot a lot, sounds windowish doesn't it,
then by all means convert to systemd or whatever suites your fancy. As
always, what works for one doesn't suite the needs of another. That's
why we use Gentoo. We get to use what suites us. "

It sounds like systemd would benefit you since you have to reboot a lot.  Thing is, lots of people don't reboot that often.  Given you have a laptop, you likely reboot quite often and even a faster boot up would be nice so maybe you should give it a try.  After all, when you are running off of a battery, every bit counts.  

I have seen quite a few posts where people have switched to it.  It seems it has a bit of a curve to getting it working but once working, it works.  Me, if I was going to switch, I'd use a second install or copy my current install to another partition, just in case I can't get around that curve.  ;-)  

My point was that I don't see any reason to switch myself.  While sort of agreeing with pk, I do see what some would want to switch and I have no problem with someone posting a success story.  I have done so myself when I went to LVM.  I'm sure there are others but that is one I remember pretty well.  

Dale

:-)  :-)  

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

[gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[walt]

On 11/09/2012 06:30 PM, Dale wrote:
> Me, if I was going to switch, I'd use a second install or copy my
> current install to another partition, just in case I can't get around
> that curve.  ;-)

Heh, you didn't think I started with my real machine, right?  I've spent the last week rebooting a VirtualBox install of gentoo every 10 minutes or so :/  I'm planning to convert my fallback *real* machine tomorrow, and then maybe if everything goes okay I'll do this machine on Sunday.  (Sunday morning so I have all day to bail myself out.)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Dale]

walt wrote:
> On 11/09/2012 06:30 PM, Dale wrote:
>> Me, if I was going to switch, I'd use a second install or copy my
>> current install to another partition, just in case I can't get around
>> that curve.  ;-)
>
> Heh, you didn't think I started with my real machine, right?  I've
> spent the last week rebooting a VirtualBox install of gentoo every 10
> minutes or so :/  I'm planning to convert my fallback *real* machine
> tomorrow, and then maybe if everything goes okay I'll do this machine
> on Sunday.  (Sunday morning so I have all day to bail myself out.)
>
>

You sound like me.  I go into something expecting everything that can go
wrong to do just that.  If it breaks badly, I'm not to disappointed. 
Exception to that, hal.  Let's not go there tho.  If it works like it
should then I am pleasantly surprised.  ROFL 

I need to look into this VirtualBox thing.  It sounds sort of like a
chroot thing or something.  I got to startpage up a wiki or something. 
o_O 

I say startpage cause I no longer use super nosey google except for
email.  I plan to switch that one of these days. 

I'm glad you got it going tho.  Why not post what pot holes you ran
into?  It seems some want to follow in your footsteps. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Freitag, 9. November 2012, 17:11:49 schrieb Keith Dart:
> Re
> 509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.se509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gma
> ne.org,
> Dale said:
> > I don't worry about boot up times much either.  Here is why:
> I was thinking of converting to systemd on my Gentoo laptop. There I do
> boot frequently, and could benefit from quicker bootups. So I'm happy
> to some success stories with it, since I've been holding off on taking
> that plunge.
> 
> 
> -- Keith

suspend to ram is the answer. Faster than any boot.

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[微蔡]

On Saturday 10 November 2012 07:54:21 Volker Armin Hemmann 
wrote:
> Am Freitag, 9. November 2012, 17:11:49 schrieb Keith Dart:
> > Re
> > 
509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.se509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.g
> > ma ne.org,
> > 
> > Dale said:
> > > I don't worry about boot up times much either.  Here is why:
> > I was thinking of converting to systemd on my Gentoo laptop. 
There I do
> > boot frequently, and could benefit from quicker bootups. So I'm 
happy
> > to some success stories with it, since I've been holding off on 
taking
> > that plunge.
> > 
> > 
> > -- Keith
> 
> suspend to ram is the answer. Faster than any boot.

The you are happy to use a system take take a year to boot, then 
never shutdown.

-- 
 ______________ 
< gentoo rocks >
 -------------- 
        \   ^__^
         \  (oo)\_______
            (__)\       )\/\
                ||----w |
                ||     ||

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Samstag, 10. November 2012, 15:17:26 schrieb 微蔡:
> On Saturday 10 November 2012 07:54:21 Volker Armin Hemmann
> 
> wrote:
> > Am Freitag, 9. November 2012, 17:11:49 schrieb Keith Dart:
> > > Re
> 
> 509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.se509D8E00.4030208@coolmail.sek7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.g
> 
> > > ma ne.org,
> > > 
> > > Dale said:
> > > > I don't worry about boot up times much either.  Here is why:
> > > I was thinking of converting to systemd on my Gentoo laptop.
> 
> There I do
> 
> > > boot frequently, and could benefit from quicker bootups. So I'm
> 
> happy
> 
> > > to some success stories with it, since I've been holding off on
> 
> taking
> 
> > > that plunge.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -- Keith
> > 
> > suspend to ram is the answer. Faster than any boot.
> 
> The you are happy to use a system take take a year to boot, then
> never shutdown.

more like 6 seconds - and suspend-to-ram is like shutdown.
-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[微蔡]

On Saturday 10 November 2012 00:13:04 pk wrote:
> On 2012-11-09 23:53, walt wrote:
> > You Lennart haters out there (and I was one of you not so long ago 
;)
> > now I think he's not so bad after all.  He just doesn't know yet how 
to
> > explain things properly to old farts.
> 
> Good for you. I really don't see the point in preaching systemd's
> greatness (or Lennart's). I'm not going to try it anyway. Also, I really
> don't see a point in booting fast (and I don't see anything wrong with
> openrc). So why do you feel the need to preach? Just curious...
> 

systemd is not just about booting fast. If booting fast is the only thing 
you can have in systemd, then systemd is nothing.

what systemd give you: 	easier maintainance !

what openrc give you: already maintained well by Gentoo self-less-
ness guy. but if an update goes, the Gentoo Devs will be busy again. 

Again , you're not the one maintainning such shell script crap.It's the 
ebuild maintainer that does.


 ______________ 
< gentoo rocks >
 -------------- 
        \   ^__^
         \  (oo)\_______
            (__)\       )\/\
                ||----w |
                ||     ||

[gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[walt]

On 11/09/2012 03:13 PM, pk wrote:
> On 2012-11-09 23:53, walt wrote:
>
>> You Lennart haters out there (and I was one of you not so long ago ;)
>> now I think he's not so bad after all.  He just doesn't know yet how to
>> explain things properly to old farts.
>
> Good for you. I really don't see the point in preaching systemd's
> greatness (or Lennart's). I'm not going to try it anyway.

:)  systemd is coming whether you or I like it or not so I'm trying to stay a bit ahead of the tsunami, that's all.

The emotions started running high when Lennart pushed pulseaudio on us awhile ago, and he's doing it again now with systemd.  I didn't see the purpose for pulse until I (finally) bought a new computer with audio hardware I'd never seen before, and then I finally understood why he invented this silly pulse nonsense.

I still don't quite understand the entire motivation behind systemd but I'll bet it will become obvious to me in the future.

> Also, I really don't see a point in booting fast

A speedy reboot is very nice for those of use who compile and test a new kernel from Linus every morning and file kernel bug reports when appropriate. If I do find a kernel bug I may need to recompile/reboot many times as quickly as my machine can do it, so saving 15-20 seconds per reboot cycle just feels less painful :)

> (and I don't see anything wrong with
> openrc). So why do you feel the need to preach? Just curious...

I didn't intend to preach, I intended to brag that I got it working :p

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[pk]

On 2012-11-10 03:03, walt wrote:

> :)  systemd is coming whether you or I like it or not so I'm trying to
> stay a bit ahead of the tsunami, that's all.

Yes, systemd may be coming and may even become mandatory for the Linux
kernel (given it's marriage with udev). when that comes, I'd rather go
*BSD or even Windows for that matter. The current plan is going mdev,
following Walter Dnes fine example, when I can find the time (perhaps
during xmas).

> The emotions started running high when Lennart pushed pulseaudio on us
> awhile ago, and he's doing it again now with systemd.  I didn't see the
> purpose for pulse until I (finally) bought a new computer with audio
> hardware I'd never seen before, and then I finally understood why he
> invented this silly pulse nonsense.

I don't use pulseaudio and never will. Alsa is working fine, using
hardware mixer. I really don't understand why you would want to use a
second layer on top of the hardware driver, I thought we gave that up
years ago, abandoning the ESD and aRts.

> I still don't quite understand the entire motivation behind systemd but
> I'll bet it will become obvious to me in the future.

I'm sure...

> A speedy reboot is very nice for those of use who compile and test a new
> kernel from Linus every morning and file kernel bug reports when
> appropriate. If I do find a kernel bug I may need to recompile/reboot
> many times as quickly as my machine can do it, so saving 15-20 seconds
> per reboot cycle just feels less painful :)

Ok. For me, when booting, the most time spent is in the bios cycle.
Booting from grub takes maybe 5-10 seconds...

> I didn't intend to preach, I intended to brag that I got it working :p

Ok, I just read it as "preaching" but I guess you can see it that way
too. I was just a bit tired I guess, sorry!

Best regards

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[微蔡]

在 2012年11月10日 星期六 20:56:45，pk 写道：
> On 2012-11-10 03:03, walt wrote:
> > :)  systemd is coming whether you or I like it or not so I'm trying to
> > 
> > stay a bit ahead of the tsunami, that's all.
> 
> Yes, systemd may be coming and may even become mandatory for 
the Linux
> kernel (given it's marriage with udev). when that comes, I'd rather go
> *BSD or even Windows for that matter. The current plan is going 
mdev,
> following Walter Dnes fine example, when I can find the time 
(perhaps
> during xmas).

byebye  haters .  Comunitiy doesn't need people like you.


> 
> > The emotions started running high when Lennart pushed 
pulseaudio on us
> > awhile ago, and he's doing it again now with systemd.  I didn't see 
the
> > purpose for pulse until I (finally) bought a new computer with 
audio
> > hardware I'd never seen before, and then I finally understood why 
he
> > invented this silly pulse nonsense.
> 
> I don't use pulseaudio and never will. Alsa is working fine, using
> hardware mixer. I really don't understand why you would want to 
use a
> second layer on top of the hardware driver, I thought we gave that 
up
> years ago, abandoning the ESD and aRts.
> 
> > I still don't quite understand the entire motivation behind systemd 
but
> > I'll bet it will become obvious to me in the future.
> 
> I'm sure...
> 
> > A speedy reboot is very nice for those of use who compile and test 
a new
> > kernel from Linus every morning and file kernel bug reports when
> > appropriate. If I do find a kernel bug I may need to 
recompile/reboot
> > many times as quickly as my machine can do it, so saving 15-20 
seconds
> > per reboot cycle just feels less painful :)
> 
> Ok. For me, when booting, the most time spent is in the bios cycle.
> Booting from grub takes maybe 5-10 seconds...

Then find something to boost the BIOS. Yeah , UEFI goes out, and you 
say: BIOS is fine with me ,  I don't need UEFI. 


> 
> > I didn't intend to preach, I intended to brag that I got it working :p
> 
> Ok, I just read it as "preaching" but I guess you can see it that way
> too. I was just a bit tired I guess, sorry!

conclude:

	You maybe paid by some Linux hate company to express like this.

> 
> Best regards
> 
> Peter K
-- 
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< gentoo rocks >
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 15:33:15 schrieb 微蔡:
> 在 2012年11月10日 星期六 20:56:45，pk 写道：
> 
> > On 2012-11-10 03:03, walt wrote:
> > > :)  systemd is coming whether you or I like it or not so I'm trying to
> > > 
> > > stay a bit ahead of the tsunami, that's all.
> > 
> > Yes, systemd may be coming and may even become mandatory for
> 
> the Linux
> 
> > kernel (given it's marriage with udev). when that comes, I'd rather go
> > *BSD or even Windows for that matter. The current plan is going
> 
> mdev,
> 
> > following Walter Dnes fine example, when I can find the time
> 
> (perhaps
> 
> > during xmas).
> 
> byebye  haters .  Comunitiy doesn't need people like you.

wrong, it does need people like him. Following one 'messiah' like sheep (in 
this case Poettering and his pulseaudio/systemd mess) is not the RIGHT THING 
to do. There are always better solutions to a specific problem.

> a new
> 
> > > kernel from Linus every morning and file kernel bug reports when
> > > appropriate. If I do find a kernel bug I may need to
> 
> recompile/reboot
> 
> > > many times as quickly as my machine can do it, so saving 15-20
> 
> seconds
> 
> > > per reboot cycle just feels less painful :)
> > 

if you can sacr 15-20 seconds there is something else broken. 20 seconds is 
the overall my box needs - with most time spent in bios. Without systemd.

> 	You maybe paid by some Linux hate company to express like this.

I conclude you have no idea what you are talking about. Attacking people who 
have other NEEDS than you and so use a different SOLUTION is just wrong.

But what to expect from someone with a 'fedora' email adress. Fedora aka 
Redhat aka acting obnoxoius and pushing sub par solutions or try to be as 
incompatible as possible to everybody else....

(see rpm mess, gcc 2.96 and other examples)


-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[微蔡]

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在 2012年11月11日 星期日 12:09:46，Volker Armin Hemmann 写道：
> Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 15:33:15 schrieb 微蔡:
> > 在 2012年11月10日 星期六 20:56:45，pk 写道：
> > 
> > > On 2012-11-10 03:03, walt wrote:
> > > > :)  systemd is coming whether you or I like it or not so I'm trying to
> > > > 
> > > > stay a bit ahead of the tsunami, that's all.
> > > 
> > > Yes, systemd may be coming and may even become mandatory for
> > 
> > the Linux
> > 
> > > kernel (given it's marriage with udev). when that comes, I'd rather go
> > > *BSD or even Windows for that matter. The current plan is going
> > 
> > mdev,
> > 
> > > following Walter Dnes fine example, when I can find the time
> > 
> > (perhaps
> > 
> > > during xmas).
> > 
> > byebye  haters .  Comunitiy doesn't need people like you.
> 
> wrong, it does need people like him. Following one 'messiah' like sheep (in
> this case Poettering and his pulseaudio/systemd mess) is not the RIGHT THING
> to do. There are always better solutions to a specific problem.
> 
> > a new
> > 
> > > > kernel from Linus every morning and file kernel bug reports when
> > > > appropriate. If I do find a kernel bug I may need to
> > 
> > recompile/reboot
> > 
> > > > many times as quickly as my machine can do it, so saving 15-20
> > 
> > seconds
> > 
> > > > per reboot cycle just feels less painful :)
> 
> if you can sacr 15-20 seconds there is something else broken. 20 seconds is
> the overall my box needs - with most time spent in bios. Without systemd.
> 
> > 	You maybe paid by some Linux hate company to express like this.
> 
> I conclude you have no idea what you are talking about. Attacking people who
> have other NEEDS than you and so use a different SOLUTION is just wrong.

sorry about that.  different sulotion is good, but  *hate* is bad. because 
when you do some techical decisions ,  *hate* will lead to wrong decisions.

> But what to expect from someone with a 'fedora' email adress. Fedora aka
> Redhat aka acting obnoxoius and pushing sub par solutions or try to be as
> incompatible as possible to everybody else....


used to use fedora 4 years ago.  but don't want to re-subscrib to gentoo with 
new maill address.  :)  BTW. Don't overthink. it's not  @redhat.com , just 
fedora.

> 
> (see rpm mess, gcc 2.96 and other examples)
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:03:33 +0800, 微蔡 wrote:

> sorry about that.  different sulotion is good, but  *hate* is bad.
> because when you do some techical decisions ,  *hate* will lead to
> wrong decisions.

Which is why we were doing fine here until *you* introduced hate into the
thread.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

WinErr 00D: Window closed - Do not look outside

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 20:03:33 schrieb 微蔡:
> 在 2012年11月11日 星期日 12:09:46，Volker Armin Hemmann 写道：
> 
> > Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 15:33:15 schrieb 微蔡:
> > > 在 2012年11月10日 星期六 20:56:45，pk 写道：
> > > 
> > > > On 2012-11-10 03:03, walt wrote:
> > > > > :)  systemd is coming whether you or I like it or not so I'm trying
> > > > > :to
> > > > > 
> > > > > stay a bit ahead of the tsunami, that's all.
> > > > 
> > > > Yes, systemd may be coming and may even become mandatory for
> > > 
> > > the Linux
> > > 
> > > > kernel (given it's marriage with udev). when that comes, I'd rather go
> > > > *BSD or even Windows for that matter. The current plan is going
> > > 
> > > mdev,
> > > 
> > > > following Walter Dnes fine example, when I can find the time
> > > 
> > > (perhaps
> > > 
> > > > during xmas).
> > > 
> > > byebye  haters .  Comunitiy doesn't need people like you.
> > 
> > wrong, it does need people like him. Following one 'messiah' like sheep
> > (in
> > this case Poettering and his pulseaudio/systemd mess) is not the RIGHT
> > THING to do. There are always better solutions to a specific problem.
> > 
> > > a new
> > > 
> > > > > kernel from Linus every morning and file kernel bug reports when
> > > > > appropriate. If I do find a kernel bug I may need to
> > > 
> > > recompile/reboot
> > > 
> > > > > many times as quickly as my machine can do it, so saving 15-20
> > > 
> > > seconds
> > > 
> > > > > per reboot cycle just feels less painful :)
> > 
> > if you can sacr 15-20 seconds there is something else broken. 20 seconds
> > is
> > the overall my box needs - with most time spent in bios. Without systemd.
> > 
> > > 	You maybe paid by some Linux hate company to express like this.
> > 
> > I conclude you have no idea what you are talking about. Attacking people
> > who have other NEEDS than you and so use a different SOLUTION is just
> > wrong.
> sorry about that.  different sulotion is good, but  *hate* is bad. because
> when you do some techical decisions ,  *hate* will lead to wrong decisions.

hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't want is 
forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a valid reaction. A lot 
of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or systemd. Now it is forced on 
everybody.

When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course, one could use 
udev without udev in the future.

Now they are talking about making udev systemd only.

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Bruce Hill]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 01:49:03PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> 
> hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't want is 
> forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a valid reaction. A lot 
> of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or systemd. Now it is forced on 
> everybody.
> 
> When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course, one could use 
> udev without [systemd] in the future.
> 
> Now they are talking about making udev systemd only.
> 
> -- 
> #163933

-- 
Happy Penguin Computers               >')
126 Fenco Drive                       ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801                       ^^
support@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[微蔡]

在 2012年11月11日 星期日 07:22:41，Bruce Hill 写道：
> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 01:49:03PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't want is
> > forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a valid reaction. A
> > lot of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or systemd. Now it is forced
> > on everybody.
> > 
> > When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course, one could
> > use udev without [systemd] in the future.
> > 
> > Now they are talking about making udev systemd only.

obsolutly nonsense. what they remove , is the ability to build udev 
seperately. udev can still be used without systemd.

-- 
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< gentoo rocks >
 -------------- 
        \   ^__^
         \  (oo)\_______
            (__)\       )\/\
                ||----w |
                ||     ||

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 21:32:41 schrieb 微蔡:
> 在 2012年11月11日 星期日 07:22:41，Bruce Hill 写道：
> 
> > On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 01:49:03PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > > hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't want is
> > > forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a valid reaction.
> > > A
> > > lot of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or systemd. Now it is
> > > forced
> > > on everybody.
> > > 
> > > When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course, one could
> > > use udev without [systemd] in the future.
> > > 
> > > Now they are talking about making udev systemd only.
> 
> obsolutly nonsense. what they remove , is the ability to build udev
> seperately. udev can still be used without systemd.

hey, you already built it and have it laying around. And all that other stuff 
that we are forcing upon you wants it anyway - so why don't you use it? In 12 
month you have to anyway...

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:32:41 +0800
微蔡 <microcai@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> 在 2012年11月11日 星期日 07:22:41，Bruce Hill 写道：
> > On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 01:49:03PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann
> > wrote:
> > > hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't
> > > want is forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a
> > > valid reaction. A lot of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or
> > > systemd. Now it is forced on everybody.
> > > 
> > > When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course,
> > > one could use udev without [systemd] in the future.
> > > 
> > > Now they are talking about making udev systemd only.
> 
> obsolutly nonsense. what they remove , is the ability to build udev 
> seperately. udev can still be used without systemd.
> 

Say Dude, 

I have a question (well, two actually)

My name is Alan and I've been subscribed on this list for 7 years.

What's your name, and how long have you been around?

Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this here
meritocracy.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 01:33:21 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this here
> meritocracy.

I think the OP has already done that with his previous posts.

Or are you worried that he's after your attitude stripes? :P


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. Its the transition thats
troublesome. - Isaac Asimov

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 01:33:21 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>
>> Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this here
>> meritocracy.
> I think the OP has already done that with his previous posts.
>
> Or are you worried that he's after your attitude stripes? :P
>
>

I'm worried about where I fall on this "pecking order" thingy.  Do we
really have one of those?  o-O

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Alan McKinnon]

On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 00:03:38 +0000
Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 01:33:21 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> 
> > Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this
> > here meritocracy.
> 
> I think the OP has already done that with his previous posts.
> 
> Or are you worried that he's after your attitude stripes? :P
> 
> 

looking for a chance to stomp both feet actually :-)

haven't done that in a while, I'm feeling the withdrawals...

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:32:41 +0800
> 微蔡 <microcai@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>
>> 在 2012年11月11日 星期日 07:22:41，Bruce Hill 写道：
>> > On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 01:49:03PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann
>> > wrote:
>> > > hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't
>> > > want is forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a
>> > > valid reaction. A lot of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or
>> > > systemd. Now it is forced on everybody.
>> > >
>> > > When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course,
>> > > one could use udev without [systemd] in the future.
>> > >
>> > > Now they are talking about making udev systemd only.
>>
>> obsolutly nonsense. what they remove , is the ability to build udev
>> seperately. udev can still be used without systemd.
>>
>
> Say Dude,
>
> I have a question (well, two actually)
>
> My name is Alan and I've been subscribed on this list for 7 years.
>
> What's your name, and how long have you been around?
>
> Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this here
> meritocracy.

Seniority != meritocracy. And I don't know how much "meritocratic"
this list could be, since it is a users lists. The most "merit" a
member of this list can get is to give technically acurate,
constructive, and polite help for those users asking for it.

IMO, the most active users of this lists usually fail in at least two
of those three, sometimes all of them. Unfortunately, I don't think I
have done better. I suscribed to this lists more than eight years ago;
I stopped asking for help here just a few months later. Which is
easily explained by people like you that believe that "being around"
longer somehow gives more "merit" and that there is a "pecking order".

I was under the impression that, being all of us Gentoo users, we were
equals, although some of us know less about some things and some
others know more about some other things. Hence the smart, mature, and
polite exchange of ideas. I didn't know this was a pissing contest.

This is a technical help list, related to the Gentoo Linux
distribution. Please, don't try to "pull rank" in here; you just look
bad, and at least I would laugh at the futility of it. Even more
considering I've been around longer:

http://www.mail-archive.com/gentoo-user@gentoo.org/msg35368.html

Mmmh. Maybe I've been around even longer than 8 years. But, who the fuck cares?

It's completely relevant.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 6:24 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
> It's completely relevant.

I meant irrelevant, of course.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 18:24:32 -0600
Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:

> Which is
> easily explained by people like you that believe that "being around"
> longer somehow gives more "merit" and that there is a "pecking order".


slow down there a little bit please

I don't really think it's me you're riled up at.





-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 18:24:32 -0600
> Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Which is
>> easily explained by people like you that believe that "being around"
>> longer somehow gives more "merit" and that there is a "pecking order".
>
>
> slow down there a little bit please
>
> I don't really think it's me you're riled up at.

I said "people like you". You were the one asking "how long have you
been around" to someone in order to "establish [his] place in the
pecking order" (your quote, almost word for word). I know you were not
even in the list back there (as has been established, I have been here
longer).

But yout post was of the same kind. Hence, people like you.

Regards.
--
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Bruce Hill]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 06:24:32PM -0600, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Say Dude,
> >
> > I have a question (well, two actually)
> >
> > My name is Alan and I've been subscribed on this list for 7 years.
> >
> > What's your name, and how long have you been around?
> >
> > Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this here
> > meritocracy.
> 
> Seniority != meritocracy. And I don't know how much "meritocratic"
> this list could be, since it is a users lists. The most "merit" a
> member of this list can get is to give technically acurate,
> constructive, and polite help for those users asking for it.
> 
> IMO, the most active users of this lists usually fail in at least two
> of those three, sometimes all of them. Unfortunately, I don't think I
> have done better. I suscribed to this lists more than eight years ago;
> I stopped asking for help here just a few months later. Which is
> easily explained by people like you that believe that "being around"
> longer somehow gives more "merit" and that there is a "pecking order".
> 
> I was under the impression that, being all of us Gentoo users, we were
> equals, although some of us know less about some things and some
> others know more about some other things. Hence the smart, mature, and
> polite exchange of ideas. I didn't know this was a pissing contest.
> 
> This is a technical help list, related to the Gentoo Linux
> distribution. Please, don't try to "pull rank" in here; you just look
> bad, and at least I would laugh at the futility of it. Even more
> considering I've been around longer:
> 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gentoo-user@gentoo.org/msg35368.html
> 
> Mmmh. Maybe I've been around even longer than 8 years. But, who the
> <censored> cares?
> 
> It's completely relevant.
> 
> Regards.
> -- 
> Canek Peláez Valdés
> Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Other than your use of profanity, that post was worth making a sticky.

Over the last 9 years I've subscribed/unsubscribed to a good number of lists.
The first such abuse of others was A.O.L.S. -- yes, you just look bad, real
bad.

There is one LUG to which I'm subscribed, which is still good for support and
edification of others. Since I (re)joined this list on Oct 21, it appears that
only 3 messages have been of enough technical merit for saving.
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers               >')
126 Fenco Drive                       ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801                       ^^
support@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:06 PM, Bruce Hill
<daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:
[snip]
> Other than your use of profanity, that post was worth making a sticky.

I try not to use profanity most of the time. In this particular case,
I believe it was appropriate since, really, who the FUCK cares if I
have been suscribed or not to a list for more years than someone else.

I hope it doesn't offend anyone. That was not (nor is) the intention.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Bruce Hill]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 07:14:29PM -0600, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:06 PM, Bruce Hill
> <daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> > Other than your use of profanity, that post was worth making a sticky.
> 
> I try not to use profanity most of the time. In this particular case,
> I believe it was appropriate since, really, who the <censored> cares if I
> have been suscribed or not to a list for more years than someone else.
> 
> I hope it doesn't offend anyone. That was not (nor is) the intention.
> 
> Regards.
> -- 
> Canek Peláez Valdés
> Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

It offends me.
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers               >')
126 Fenco Drive                       ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801                       ^^
support@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Bruce Hill
<daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:
[snip]
> It offends me.

That's too bad. In public mailing lists profanity happens a lot. I
suggest you not to read LKML; Linus is famous for his outbursts: you
probably would get offended a lot.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Dale]

Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Bruce Hill
> <daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:
> [snip]
>> It offends me.
> That's too bad. In public mailing lists profanity happens a lot. I
> suggest you not to read LKML; Linus is famous for his outbursts: you
> probably would get offended a lot.
>
> Regards.


I happen to know Bruce.  I don't just mean to see his posts here but I
have actually met him in person, in real life, eyeball to eyeball and
more than once and over several years at that.  I understand why it
offends him since I know him but most likely he won't say it because,
well, he is a better person than most.  So, I'll explain it as best as I
can for you.

Bruce is a Christian, as am I.  You ever see me post profanity like
that?  I bet you haven't seen him post any either.  You ever wonder
why?  I do my very best to be respectful, even if someone can't or won't
do the same for me.  Thing is, you don't just make yourself look bad
when you use that kind of language, you make everyone else here look bad
too.  We, as in anyone on this list, may disagree on things at times but
there is no need for bad language nor should it happen either.  It is
uncalled for to say it lightly.  Pointing to other bad behaviour is no
excuse either.  I'm not a member of the kernel mailing list nor do I
want to be.  Their reputation precedes them on that one. 

Several years ago, the -dev mailing list was a sewer of a place to be. 
It gave Gentoo a very bad reputation and was talked about all over the
place.  Back then, I used Gentoo but by no means was I proud of the way
the people treated each other on -dev.  I had no reason to be either. 
There are occasional exceptions to this but for the most part, I am
proud of what Gentoo has become.  How it has fixed its reputation on its
own.  I really hope -user is not going to have to go through the same
thing -dev did.  I hope -user is not going to turn into what -dev was a
few years ago.  One thing for sure, I'm not going to take it there.  I
hope others will join me on this one.

Why not try this, treat others as you would like to be treated.  Some of
us, don't like the profanity and I include myself in that.  As you said,
this is a PUBLIC mailing list.  That means anything we do is seen by
others.  We should ALL remember that.  If we don't, we will be talked
about like we was a few years ago when -dev was so bad but this time it
will be -user. 

If you are not a religious person, then fine, some of us are.  It
doesn't mean we can't still respect each other and be a better place
than the LKML. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
> If you are not a religious person, then fine, some of us are.  It
> doesn't mean we can't still respect each other and be a better place
> than the LKML.

I'm atheists, and I don't see any relation between being or not a
religious person, using profanity, or that we respect each other. The
three of them are orthogonal, I think.

I try to respect every member of this list. To me, that doesn't have
anything to do with using profanity, nor the other way around: I've
seen a LOT of unrespectful behaviour by many members of the lists, who
didn't use profanity at all.

I believe is shallow and a little silly to equate "being respectful"
to "not use profanity". As such, I will continue to use profanity from
time to time when I believe is the proper response (as it was in this
case).

If you don't like it, feel free to filter me, ignore me, or wathever
course of action you think you should take. I will not censor myself
just to placate the sensibilities of someone.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Dale]

Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> If you don't like it, feel free to filter me, ignore me, or wathever
> course of action you think you should take. I will not censor myself
> just to placate the sensibilities of someone. Regards. 

First time in over eight years that I have had to do this.  So sad.  It
would be so nice if you could respect the wishes of others as I am about
to do for you. 

Keep in mind, if you reply to my messages in the future, I will not see
them. 

Consider it done. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Bruce Hill]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 09:02:18PM -0600, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> 
> I'm atheists, and I don't see any relation between being or not a
> religious person, using profanity, or that we respect each other. The
> three of them are orthogonal, I think.
> 
> I try to respect every member of this list. To me, that doesn't have
> anything to do with using profanity, nor the other way around: I've
> seen a LOT of unrespectful behaviour by many members of the lists, who
> didn't use profanity at all.
> 
> I believe is shallow and a little silly to equate "being respectful"
> to "not use profanity". As such, I will continue to use profanity from
> time to time when I believe is the proper response (as it was in this
> case).
> 
> If you don't like it, feel free to filter me, ignore me, or wathever
> course of action you think you should take. I will not censor myself
> just to placate the sensibilities of someone.
> 
> Regards.

And I quote what you snip out of your replies now:

I hope it doesn't offend anyone.
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers               >')
126 Fenco Drive                       ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801                       ^^
support@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 11:16 PM, Bruce Hill
<daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 09:02:18PM -0600, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>>
>> I'm atheists, and I don't see any relation between being or not a
>> religious person, using profanity, or that we respect each other. The
>> three of them are orthogonal, I think.
>>
>> I try to respect every member of this list. To me, that doesn't have
>> anything to do with using profanity, nor the other way around: I've
>> seen a LOT of unrespectful behaviour by many members of the lists, who
>> didn't use profanity at all.
>>
>> I believe is shallow and a little silly to equate "being respectful"
>> to "not use profanity". As such, I will continue to use profanity from
>> time to time when I believe is the proper response (as it was in this
>> case).
>>
>> If you don't like it, feel free to filter me, ignore me, or wathever
>> course of action you think you should take. I will not censor myself
>> just to placate the sensibilities of someone.
>>
>> Regards.
>
> And I quote what you snip out of your replies now:
>
> I hope it doesn't offend anyone.

I still don't understand you, and I still stand by what I said.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Bruce Hill]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 07:50:04PM -0600, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Bruce Hill
> <daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> > It offends me.
> 
> That's too bad. In public mailing lists profanity happens a lot. I
> suggest you not to read LKML; Linus is famous for his outbursts: you
> probably would get offended a lot.
> 
> Regards.

Seems you snipped out the part which makes you a liar; and, I quote you:

"I hope it doesn't offend anyone."
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers               >')
126 Fenco Drive                       ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801                       ^^
support@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 11:12 PM, Bruce Hill
<daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 07:50:04PM -0600, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Bruce Hill
>> <daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:
>> [snip]
>> > It offends me.
>>
>> That's too bad. In public mailing lists profanity happens a lot. I
>> suggest you not to read LKML; Linus is famous for his outbursts: you
>> probably would get offended a lot.
>>
>> Regards.
>
> Seems you snipped out the part which makes you a liar; and, I quote you:
>
> "I hope it doesn't offend anyone."

Why does that make me a liar? I didn't wanted to offend anyone; that
was not my intention. That doesn't mean I care if it does offend
someone.

The way I see it, if my use of profanity offends you, that it's your
problem. Not mine. Doesn't mean I *wanted* to offend; it just means
that I don't *care*.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 19:06:37 -0600
Bruce Hill <daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:

> Other than your use of profanity, that post was worth making a sticky.
> 
> Over the last 9 years I've subscribed/unsubscribed to a good number
> of lists. The first such abuse of others was A.O.L.S. -- yes, you
> just look bad, real bad.
> 
> There is one LUG to which I'm subscribed, which is still good for
> support and edification of others. Since I (re)joined this list on
> Oct 21, it appears that only 3 messages have been of enough technical
> merit for saving.


FWIW, swearing here is rare. Usually it's understandable when it
happens.

Threads like this current one are also rare. Unfortunately of late they
usually involve Lennart, and that's understandable too:

In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for breaking
Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he works on.

Stick around, this list is worth the effort.


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
> In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for breaking
> Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he works on.

Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops,
desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and
what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600
Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Alan McKinnon
> <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote: [snip]
> > In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for
> > breaking Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he
> > works on.
> 
> Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops,
> desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and
> what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination.
> 
> Regards.

Are you in discussion mode or pick a fight mode?

I'm hoping it's the former.


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 2:20 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600
> Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Alan McKinnon
>> <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote: [snip]
>> > In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for
>> > breaking Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he
>> > works on.
>>
>> Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops,
>> desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and
>> what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination.
>>
>> Regards.
>
> Are you in discussion mode or pick a fight mode?
>
> I'm hoping it's the former.

Just in discussion mode. The statement "this distro does not fit the
general problems he [Poettering] works on" doesn't make much sense; I
thought Gentoo fitted basically everything the user wanted to.
Therefore, in particular fits the model set by the systemd/udev
developers.

Case in point: in my use cases, it fits. I just used sarcasm to refute
said statement.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Alan McKinnon]

On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 02:37:13 -0600
Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 2:20 AM, Alan McKinnon
> <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600
> > Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Alan McKinnon
> >> <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote: [snip]
> >> > In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for
> >> > breaking Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems
> >> > he works on.
> >>
> >> Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines
> >> (laptops, desktops, servers and media center) running with
> >> Gentoo+systemd (and what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget
> >> of my imagination.
> >>
> >> Regards.
> >
> > Are you in discussion mode or pick a fight mode?
> >
> > I'm hoping it's the former.
> 
> Just in discussion mode. The statement "this distro does not fit the
> general problems he [Poettering] works on" doesn't make much sense; I
> thought Gentoo fitted basically everything the user wanted to.
> Therefore, in particular fits the model set by the systemd/udev
> developers.
> 
> Case in point: in my use cases, it fits. I just used sarcasm to refute
> said statement.

OK.

I was speaking in broad terms, and unfortunately English is a very
overloaded language; it doesn't do absolute precision very well.

I well know that any of us can configure a Gentoo system to work
correctly with just about any sane software; even if we have to get
under the hood that's all just part of the deal using Gentoo.
Quite obviously that's what you did with systemd to greater or lesser
degree.

But that's not what I was referring to, and you shouldn't take what I
said to imply I meant something universally true either. Like I said,
English is overloaded and more often than not when humans talk, the
precision is fuzzy.

Gentoo systems tend to be tweaked extensively by the owners (we have
that freedom), in contrast to binary distros that usually have a much
more rigid basic layout - you get what the maintainer gives you.
Switching the startup system on Fedora is quite straightforward - the
next release comes out with different software packages compared to the
previous version (and the user gets to figure out this new thing) but
it mostly works. On Gentoo the user gets to deal with the breakage of
such low-level changes themselves, so we open the hood and break out
the spanners. This is breakage - the fuzzy definition. 

But all of this is a side issue anyway. The main thrust of my post was
that some software and developers have a tendency to get tempers riled
up around here (remember /usr, separate volumes and initrd?) and with a
volatile audience, well they are volatile. So Bruce shouldn't consider
a thread like this one to be representative of very much at all


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 3:36 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
[huge snip]
> But all of this is a side issue anyway. The main thrust of my post was
> that some software and developers have a tendency to get tempers riled
> up around here (remember /usr, separate volumes and initrd?) and with a
> volatile audience, well they are volatile. So Bruce shouldn't consider
> a thread like this one to be representative of very much at all

I can agree with that.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Montag, 12. November 2012, 02:37:13 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés:
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 2:20 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> 
wrote:
> > On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600
> > 
> > Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Alan McKinnon
> >> <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote: [snip]
> >> 
> >> > In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for
> >> > breaking Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he
> >> > works on.
> >> 
> >> Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops,
> >> desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and
> >> what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination.
> >> 
> >> Regards.
> > 
> > Are you in discussion mode or pick a fight mode?
> > 
> > I'm hoping it's the former.
> 
> Just in discussion mode. The statement "this distro does not fit the
> general problems he [Poettering] works on" doesn't make much sense; I
> thought Gentoo fitted basically everything the user wanted to.
> Therefore, in particular fits the model set by the systemd/udev
> developers.
> 
> Case in point: in my use cases, it fits. I just used sarcasm to refute
> said statement.
> 
> Regards.

for people who do like to have /var or /usr on seperate partitions and don't 
want to use initrd, Poettering&co are a nightmare.

They are anti-choice. Gentoo is about choice. Your choice is in line with 
Poettering's way to do things. Good for you.
But it is not mine.


-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am Montag, 12. November 2012, 02:37:13 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés:
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 2:20 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> > On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600
>> >
>> > Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Alan McKinnon
>> >> <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote: [snip]
>> >>
>> >> > In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for
>> >> > breaking Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he
>> >> > works on.
>> >>
>> >> Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops,
>> >> desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and
>> >> what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination.
>> >>
>> >> Regards.
>> >
>> > Are you in discussion mode or pick a fight mode?
>> >
>> > I'm hoping it's the former.
>>
>> Just in discussion mode. The statement "this distro does not fit the
>> general problems he [Poettering] works on" doesn't make much sense; I
>> thought Gentoo fitted basically everything the user wanted to.
>> Therefore, in particular fits the model set by the systemd/udev
>> developers.
>>
>> Case in point: in my use cases, it fits. I just used sarcasm to refute
>> said statement.
>>
>> Regards.
>
> for people who do like to have /var or /usr on seperate partitions and don't
> want to use initrd, Poettering&co are a nightmare.
>
> They are anti-choice. Gentoo is about choice. Your choice is in line with
> Poettering's way to do things. Good for you.
> But it is not mine.

I never said or implied otherwise.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Cr0k]

On Tue, 13 Nov 2012 12:30:57 -0600
Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > Am Montag, 12. November 2012, 02:37:13 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés:
> >> On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 2:20 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> > On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600
> >> >
> >> > Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Alan McKinnon
> >> >> <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote: [snip]
> >> >>
> >> >> > In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for
> >> >> > breaking Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he
> >> >> > works on.
> >> >>
> >> >> Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops,
> >> >> desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and
> >> >> what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination.
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards.
> >> >
> >> > Are you in discussion mode or pick a fight mode?
> >> >
> >> > I'm hoping it's the former.
> >>
> >> Just in discussion mode. The statement "this distro does not fit the
> >> general problems he [Poettering] works on" doesn't make much sense; I
> >> thought Gentoo fitted basically everything the user wanted to.
> >> Therefore, in particular fits the model set by the systemd/udev
> >> developers.
> >>
> >> Case in point: in my use cases, it fits. I just used sarcasm to refute
> >> said statement.
> >>
> >> Regards.
> >
> > for people who do like to have /var or /usr on seperate partitions and don't
> > want to use initrd, Poettering&co are a nightmare.
> >
> > They are anti-choice. Gentoo is about choice. Your choice is in line with
> > Poettering's way to do things. Good for you.
> > But it is not mine.
> 
> I never said or implied otherwise.
> 
> Regards.
> -- 
> Canek Peláez Valdés
> Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
> 
Hello,

Can't you answer correctly to the mailing lists? Each one of your mails goes into my standard Mailbox, while I did a rule to make it goes to a gentoo-user folder...

Thanks.

-- 
Cr0k <crok.r254@gmail.com>

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Bruce Hill]

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:26:18PM +0100, Cr0k wrote:
> > 
> Hello,
> 
> Can't you answer correctly to the mailing lists? Each one of your mails goes into my standard Mailbox, while I did a rule to make it goes to a gentoo-user folder...
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -- 
> Cr0k <crok.r254@gmail.com>

Can you learn to trim? ;)

What is the problem? You need to be a bit more specific.
-- 
Happy Penguin Gymnastics              >')
126 Fenco Drive                       ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801                       ^^
admin@happypenguingymnastics.com
662-321-7009
http://happypenguingymnastics.com/
FB: http://tiny.cc/HappyPenguinGymnastics

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:45:11 -0600
Bruce Hill <daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:26:18PM +0100, Cr0k wrote:
> > > 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > Can't you answer correctly to the mailing lists? Each one of your
> > mails goes into my standard Mailbox, while I did a rule to make it
> > goes to a gentoo-user folder...
> > 
> > Thanks.
> > 
> > -- 
> > Cr0k <crok.r254@gmail.com>
> 
> Can you learn to trim? ;)
> 
> What is the problem? You need to be a bit more specific.


Here we go again, this one comes up about once a year :-)

It's the tired old

"Reply-To munging considered harmful"

vs

"Reply-To munging considered harmful - the opposing view"

debate. Canek replied to sender with cc: to the list whereas list mails
have Reply-To set to the list, so he's in the latter category.
Personally I prefer the former, but there's no easy solution and no
sane default either (both views have equal pros and cons IMHO)

The solution I recommend to folks is to bypass the entire problem
altogether as senders are free to address their mails however they like
and resist being told how to do it different to suit someone else
(especially 3rd parties)

I filter by List-* header, which is rather reliable. As opposed to
using To: and From: and all those other unreliable things.


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Dienstag, 13. November 2012, 15:45:11 schrieb Bruce Hill:
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:26:18PM +0100, Cr0k wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > Can't you answer correctly to the mailing lists? Each one of your mails
> > goes into my standard Mailbox, while I did a rule to make it goes to a
> > gentoo-user folder...
> > 
> > Thanks.
> 
> Can you learn to trim? ;)
> 
> What is the problem? You need to be a bit more specific.

just compare Canek's mails with any other. Look at the code, the raw message 
and you will see... differences.


-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 4:51 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am Dienstag, 13. November 2012, 15:45:11 schrieb Bruce Hill:
>> On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:26:18PM +0100, Cr0k wrote:
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > Can't you answer correctly to the mailing lists? Each one of your mails
>> > goes into my standard Mailbox, while I did a rule to make it goes to a
>> > gentoo-user folder...
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>>
>> Can you learn to trim? ;)
>>
>> What is the problem? You need to be a bit more specific.
>
> just compare Canek's mails with any other. Look at the code, the raw message
> and you will see... differences.

I just hit "reply" in GMail, as always. I don't know why it would be
any difference.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Dienstag, 13. November 2012, 16:57:14 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés:
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 4:51 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> 
> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > Am Dienstag, 13. November 2012, 15:45:11 schrieb Bruce Hill:
> >> On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:26:18PM +0100, Cr0k wrote:
> >> > Hello,
> >> > 
> >> > Can't you answer correctly to the mailing lists? Each one of your mails
> >> > goes into my standard Mailbox, while I did a rule to make it goes to a
> >> > gentoo-user folder...
> >> > 
> >> > Thanks.
> >> 
> >> Can you learn to trim? ;)
> >> 
> >> What is the problem? You need to be a bit more specific.
> > 
> > just compare Canek's mails with any other. Look at the code, the raw
> > message and you will see... differences.
> 
> I just hit "reply" in GMail, as always. I don't know why it would be
> any difference.

look at the message code of the mail Crok reacted to and compare it with some 
others - even by you. List-id and other things are missing...

List-Post: <mailto:gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gentoo-user+help@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gentoo-user+unsubscribe@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:gentoo-user+subscribe@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail <gentoo-user.gentoo.org>
X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org

this whole block is just not there.

So whatever you did it was different from the other times you just hit reply...

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Hilco Wijbenga]

On 13 November 2012 15:08, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am Dienstag, 13. November 2012, 16:57:14 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés:
>> On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 4:51 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>>
>> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> > Am Dienstag, 13. November 2012, 15:45:11 schrieb Bruce Hill:
>> >> On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:26:18PM +0100, Cr0k wrote:
>> >> > Hello,
>> >> >
>> >> > Can't you answer correctly to the mailing lists? Each one of your mails
>> >> > goes into my standard Mailbox, while I did a rule to make it goes to a
>> >> > gentoo-user folder...
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks.
>> >>
>> >> Can you learn to trim? ;)
>> >>
>> >> What is the problem? You need to be a bit more specific.
>> >
>> > just compare Canek's mails with any other. Look at the code, the raw
>> > message and you will see... differences.
>>
>> I just hit "reply" in GMail, as always. I don't know why it would be
>> any difference.
>
> look at the message code of the mail Crok reacted to and compare it with some
> others - even by you. List-id and other things are missing...
>
> List-Post: <mailto:gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:gentoo-user+help@lists.gentoo.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gentoo-user+unsubscribe@lists.gentoo.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:gentoo-user+subscribe@lists.gentoo.org>
> List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail <gentoo-user.gentoo.org>
> X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
>
> this whole block is just not there.

I have each of those headers in my version of Canek's email. So it
seems it somehow got lost on the way?

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[J. Roeleveld]

On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 06:26:40 PM Hilco Wijbenga wrote:
> On 13 November 2012 15:08, Volker Armin Hemmann
> 
> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:

<snip>

> > look at the message code of the mail Crok reacted to and compare it with
> > some others - even by you. List-id and other things are missing...
> > 
> > List-Post: <mailto:gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org>
> > List-Help: <mailto:gentoo-user+help@lists.gentoo.org>
> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gentoo-user+unsubscribe@lists.gentoo.org>
> > List-Subscribe: <mailto:gentoo-user+subscribe@lists.gentoo.org>
> > List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail <gentoo-user.gentoo.org>
> > X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> > Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> > 
> > this whole block is just not there.
> 
> I have each of those headers in my version of Canek's email. So it
> seems it somehow got lost on the way?

Not really.
Volker got 2 copies of the same email. One sent directly (In the TO) and one 
via the list (In the CC)

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Bruce Hill]

On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops,
> > desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and
> > what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination.

fidget is what little boys do when they get caught doing something they know
they should not have done in the first place; such as using profanity on a
public list...

You want the word figment, which means:
n - a fantastic notion, invention, or fabrication: a figment of the
imagination
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers               >')
126 Fenco Drive                       ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801                       ^^
support@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 6:09 AM, Bruce Hill
<daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops,
>> > desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and
>> > what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination.
>
> fidget is what little boys do when they get caught doing something they know
> they should not have done in the first place; such as using profanity on a
> public list...

Cute. Just to be clear; it's *you* who believe that  "using profanity
on a public list" is "something [...] they should not have done". I
don't belive that; I believe everyone has the right to express my
whichever means (words included) they want.

> You want the word figment, which means:
> n - a fantastic notion, invention, or fabrication: a figment of the
> imagination

Thanks for the correction; it was really late last night, and I didn't
notice it.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Bruce Hill]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 03:57:52AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> 
> FWIW, swearing here is rare. Usually it's understandable when it
> happens.
> 
> Threads like this current one are also rare. Unfortunately of late they
> usually involve Lennart, and that's understandable too:
> 
> In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for breaking
> Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he works on.
> 
> Stick around, this list is worth the effort.

Dale made some good points. Whether or not one chooses to use profanity, this
list should be about supporting Gentoo users, eh?

If we also stick to helping someone with their problem, and refrain from
replying about how bad or useless we think an app or ideal might be to us, we
could avoid flame wars.

But, also, there are always those who enjoy the comparison of "mine is better
than yours".
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers               >')
126 Fenco Drive                       ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801                       ^^
support@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Dale]

Bruce Hill wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 03:57:52AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> FWIW, swearing here is rare. Usually it's understandable when it
>> happens.
>>
>> Threads like this current one are also rare. Unfortunately of late they
>> usually involve Lennart, and that's understandable too:
>>
>> In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for breaking
>> Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he works on.
>>
>> Stick around, this list is worth the effort.
> Dale made some good points. Whether or not one chooses to use profanity, this
> list should be about supporting Gentoo users, eh?
>
> If we also stick to helping someone with their problem, and refrain from
> replying about how bad or useless we think an app or ideal might be to us, we
> could avoid flame wars.
>
> But, also, there are always those who enjoy the comparison of "mine is better
> than yours".

I got two things from his reply to me earlier.  First, he talks about
not offending someone then goes and does it anyway.  Second, he is going
to continue to do it even after people have asked him not to.  I don't
think I am the first person to bring up his language and/or attitude
either.  I think anyone that read his reply to me can see for themselves
who and what he is and what he will do in the future on this list.  Now
they get to decide whether to do the same as I have done.  For the first
time in over eight years, I have blacklisted a person.  That's not just
a first for this list but for anyone, anywhere. 

I just hope this corrects itself before this turns Gentoo back several
years to what was a really bad time for all of us.  Disagreement is one
thing but this is totally uncalled for. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 23:21:06 -0600, Bruce Hill wrote:

> If we also stick to helping someone with their problem, and refrain from
> replying about how bad or useless we think an app or ideal might be to
> us, we could avoid flame wars.

Unfortunately, there are times when it is necessary to point out how bad
an idea is in order to help someone. Recent example: the suggestion to
use dd to copy one drive to another with a different block size. While
this may have worked for the person suggesting it, it is a bad idea in
general and refraining from stating that could have resulted n problems
for someone following that advice.

Surely stating the merits or otherwise of an idea is a core element of
discussion, and discussion is what this list is about.

On the topic of swearing, some consider it "bad language", as you do, and
I respect that view. Others consider it a means of expression (others
seem to use it for punctuation, but no one is defending that). There are
times that some words can add emotion or emphasis to a statement,
especially when used rarely, but on a list like this there is generally
little or no need for it. However, not all users of this list are
native-English speakers and other cultures see use of such language
different - one only has to look at the comments made on the podium of
the Abu Dhabi F1 Grand Prix, made by professional drivers who are paid
not to offend.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

And on the seventh day God said :wq and then make

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Dale]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2248 bytes --]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 23:21:06 -0600, Bruce Hill wrote:
>
>> > If we also stick to helping someone with their problem, and refrain from
>> > replying about how bad or useless we think an app or ideal might be to
>> > us, we could avoid flame wars.
> Unfortunately, there are times when it is necessary to point out how bad
> an idea is in order to help someone. Recent example: the suggestion to
> use dd to copy one drive to another with a different block size. While
> this may have worked for the person suggesting it, it is a bad idea in
> general and refraining from stating that could have resulted n problems
> for someone following that advice.
>
> Surely stating the merits or otherwise of an idea is a core element of
> discussion, and discussion is what this list is about.
>
> On the topic of swearing, some consider it "bad language", as you do, and
> I respect that view. Others consider it a means of expression (others
> seem to use it for punctuation, but no one is defending that). There are
> times that some words can add emotion or emphasis to a statement,
> especially when used rarely, but on a list like this there is generally
> little or no need for it. However, not all users of this list are
> native-English speakers and other cultures see use of such language
> different - one only has to look at the comments made on the podium of
> the Abu Dhabi F1 Grand Prix, made by professional drivers who are paid
> not to offend.
>
>
> -- Neil Bothwick And on the seventh day God said :wq and then make

And there goes that sig again.  How does that thing do what it does?  lol 

I'm of the sort that when you get to the point of swearing, you have ran
out of better ways to get the point across or just out of ideas all
together.  In the recent case, it was not only disrespectful, it was
surely rude.  This is something this list should not tolerate and I for
one have no plans to do so.  I fixed my issue but that still leaves the
list to fix the rest.  I just don't want to see this list be like -dev
once was.  Gentoo has come a long way on this to start going backwards. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Bruce Hill]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 09:37:03AM +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 23:21:06 -0600, Bruce Hill wrote:
> 
> > If we also stick to helping someone with their problem, and refrain from
> > replying about how bad or useless we think an app or ideal might be to
> > us, we could avoid flame wars.
> 
> Unfortunately, there are times when it is necessary to point out how bad
> an idea is in order to help someone. Recent example: the suggestion to
> use dd to copy one drive to another with a different block size. While
> this may have worked for the person suggesting it, it is a bad idea in
> general and refraining from stating that could have resulted n problems
> for someone following that advice.

Might I suggest that it is more appropriate, and more likely to be received,
if it is 'pointed out' with logic, technical explanation, and courtesy.

> Surely stating the merits or otherwise of an idea is a core element of
> discussion, and discussion is what this list is about.

Which can (and should) be done well without sarcasm and personal attack.

> On the topic of swearing, some consider it "bad language", as you do, and
> I respect that view. Others consider it a means of expression (others
> seem to use it for punctuation, but no one is defending that). There are
> times that some words can add emotion or emphasis to a statement,
> especially when used rarely, but on a list like this there is generally
> little or no need for it. However, not all users of this list are
> native-English speakers and other cultures see use of such language
> different - one only has to look at the comments made on the podium of
> the Abu Dhabi F1 Grand Prix, made by professional drivers who are paid
> not to offend.

God, whom you mention in your sig, has written His law on the heart of every
one, so that "they are without excuse". Having visited 10 countries, and lived
in China for almost 9 years, my experience has been that even most heathen in
remote villages understand propriety.

This person doing post-grad work in a Mexican universtiy well understands.
But even if you doubt that, just reference his remark: "I hope it doesn't
offend anyone. That was not (nor is) the intention." Seems he didn't *really*
mean that, and will continue to offend others.

> -- 
> Neil Bothwick
> 
> And on the seventh day God said :wq and then make
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers               >')
126 Fenco Drive                       ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801                       ^^
support@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4776 bytes --]

On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 05:59:39 -0600, Bruce Hill wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 09:37:03AM +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > Unfortunately, there are times when it is necessary to point out how
> > bad an idea is in order to help someone. Recent example: the
> > suggestion to use dd to copy one drive to another with a different
> > block size. While this may have worked for the person suggesting it,
> > it is a bad idea in general and refraining from stating that could
> > have resulted n problems for someone following that advice.
> 
> Might I suggest that it is more appropriate, and more likely to be
> received, if it is 'pointed out' with logic, technical explanation, and
> courtesy.

I didn't say otherwise. However, clarity is also important, if an idea is
considered poorly conceived, dangerous or simply stupid, there is nothing
wrong with stating that. Condemning the idea is not the same as condemning
the man, even though there is always an implication that someone
proposing a poor idea is in some way at fault, even if that fault is no
more than rushing to try to help without considering the possibilities.

> > Surely stating the merits or otherwise of an idea is a core element of
> > discussion, and discussion is what this list is about.
> 
> Which can (and should) be done well without sarcasm and personal attack.

Agreed absolutely. There are times when a discussion moves beyond the
facts into personal territory, as happened in this thread. In such a
case you should consider the track record of the person making the
comments. Volker is known to to be somewhat abrupt, although there
doesn't appear to be any malice, Alan has a somewhat sarcastic streak.
When the comments come from an unknown poster (even one with no
recognisable name) they can provoke a stronger, less considered reaction,
precisely because there is no history.

> > On the topic of swearing, some consider it "bad language", as you do,
> > and I respect that view. Others consider it a means of expression
> > (others seem to use it for punctuation, but no one is defending
> > that). There are times that some words can add emotion or emphasis to
> > a statement, especially when used rarely, but on a list like this
> > there is generally little or no need for it. However, not all users
> > of this list are native-English speakers and other cultures see use
> > of such language different - one only has to look at the comments
> > made on the podium of the Abu Dhabi F1 Grand Prix, made by
> > professional drivers who are paid not to offend.
> 
> God, whom you mention in your sig, has written His law on the heart of
> every one, so that "they are without excuse". Having visited 10
> countries, and lived in China for almost 9 years, my experience has
> been that even most heathen in remote villages understand propriety.

Maybe, but propriety is a feature of a culture and this list has users
from many cultures. There may even be some offended by your trying to
enforce your God's edicts n their behaviour.

This is a multicultural list, we should live and let live. If someone's
attitude or words offend you, you are free to ignore them, but they are
just as free to continue acting as they do. The Internet is
self-regulating and that applies to mailing lists too. This is primarily
a help forum, those with attitude may find that when they need help, they
have been killfiled by the very people that can help them.

> This person doing post-grad work in a Mexican universtiy well
> understands. But even if you doubt that, just reference his remark: "I
> hope it doesn't offend anyone. That was not (nor is) the intention."
> Seems he didn't *really* mean that, and will continue to offend others.

I agree, although that is more to do with attitude than language, it's
like people who apologise before doing something wrong. What they are
really saying it "I know what I am about to do it wrong, but I'm going to
do it anyway". Not that I was at all bothered by the client that phoned
me again yesterday with "sorry to ring you no a Sunday, but..." followed
by a trivial question that could have waited until today, or even be put
in an email.

Please don't confuse choice of vocabulary with courtesy. I use what you
consider bad language at times, when it fulfils two criteria.

1) I feel it makes my statement more effective
2) I know it won't offend the person(s) I am speaking to

However, those are my values, I don't try to force them on others. People
who don't like the way I act are as free t ignore me as I them. Making a
big thing about it is ultimately pointless.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Your lack of organisation does not represent an
emergency in my world.

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Bruce Hill]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 12:28:52PM +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> 
<snip> 
> -- 
> Neil Bothwick

Duly noted and appreciated ... thank you.
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers               >')
126 Fenco Drive                       ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801                       ^^
support@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 5:59 AM, Bruce Hill
<daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:
[snip]
> This person doing post-grad work in a Mexican universtiy well understands.
> But even if you doubt that, just reference his remark: "I hope it doesn't
> offend anyone. That was not (nor is) the intention." Seems he didn't *really*
> mean that, and will continue to offend others.

This person has a name, and it is Canek. Refusing to use it could be
considered "not proper" in some circles.

And I repeat, I didn't intended to offend anyone; I didn't sent the
mail thinking "oh, I surely hope a lot of folks get offended by what
I'm saying". I used "fuck" just to emphasize my point, and I will do
it again if I believe the topic has merit to do so.

If you don't want to believe me, well, that's your problem, not mine.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Alan McKinnon]

On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 05:59:39 -0600
Bruce Hill <daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:

> my experience has been that even most heathen in
> remote villages understand propriety.

My experience is that all so-called "primitive" societies have an
excellent grasp of this thing called manners - it's the oil that
lubricates social interaction.

By contrast, Western culture by and large is not only mostly ignorant
of manners and proprietary, but we made a conscious decision to
discard all of it entirely.

I too have come into contact with many cultures other than
my own. The only one that goes out of it's way to be rude as a matter of
course is the Caucasian. Food for thought.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Tanstaafl]

On 2012-11-12 2:33 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> My experience is that all so-called "primitive" societies have an
> excellent grasp of this thing called manners - it's the oil that
> lubricates social interaction.

Interestingly enough this is most likely due to the principle of 'an 
armed society is a polite society'.

In primitive societies most people are armed (with the arms of the day, 
ie spears, bows/arrows, knives, etc), and there is no concept of suing 
someone over something as silly as punching some obnoxious jerk in the 
face for being an obnoxious jerk. The jerk gets punched, everyone knows 
he deserved it, 'nuff said.

So, people in primitive societies tend to not be obnoxious jerks - 
unless they are really big and mean and ornery, in which case they may 
get away with it for a while - until he ends up dead, everyone knows he 
deserved it, 'nuff said.

> By contrast, Western culture by and large is not only mostly ignorant
> of manners and proprietary, but we made a conscious decision to
> discard all of it entirely.
>
> I too have come into contact with many cultures other than
> my own. The only one that goes out of it's way to be rude as a matter of
> course is the Caucasian. Food for thought.

Due mostly to the litigious nature of modern society. No one wants to 
risk having their kids stolen from them by kidnappers and child 
molesters (aka 'Child Protective Services' or some other similar named 
'service'), so they neglect their parental responsibilities of 
*disciplining* their children, and voila - those undisciplined kids grow 
up to be men who are afraid to be and/or don't know *how* to be men, 
women who are afraid to be thought of as different from men - and no one 
wants to be the one to get sued by the arrogant jerk for punching them 
in the face.

Sorry, having a weird day today...

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 18:24:32 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés:
> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> 
wrote:
> > On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:32:41 +0800
> > 
> > 微蔡 <microcai@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> >> 在 2012年11月11日 星期日 07:22:41，Bruce Hill 写道：
> >> 
> >> > On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 01:49:03PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann
> >> > 
> >> > wrote:
> >> > > hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't
> >> > > want is forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a
> >> > > valid reaction. A lot of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or
> >> > > systemd. Now it is forced on everybody.
> >> > > 
> >> > > When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course,
> >> > > one could use udev without [systemd] in the future.
> >> > > 
> >> > > Now they are talking about making udev systemd only.
> >> 
> >> obsolutly nonsense. what they remove , is the ability to build udev
> >> seperately. udev can still be used without systemd.
> > 
> > Say Dude,
> > 
> > I have a question (well, two actually)
> > 
> > My name is Alan and I've been subscribed on this list for 7 years.
> > 
> > What's your name, and how long have you been around?
> > 
> > Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this here
> > meritocracy.
> 
> Seniority != meritocracy. And I don't know how much "meritocratic"
> this list could be, since it is a users lists. The most "merit" a
> member of this list can get is to give technically acurate,
> constructive, and polite help for those users asking for it.
> 

in that case Alan certainly is at the very top. 

He is one of maybe three posters where I read every mail - and one of a 
handful I have a hard time to disagree with. Same for Neil Bothwick. Just to 
name two that rank very highly on my privat list of good gentoo-user citizens. 

Because both know what they are talking about. Something that is very rare.

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>> Seniority != meritocracy. And I don't know how much "meritocratic"
>> this list could be, since it is a users lists. The most "merit" a
>> member of this list can get is to give technically acurate,
>> constructive, and polite help for those users asking for it.
>>
>
> in that case Alan certainly is at the very top.
>
> He is one of maybe three posters where I read every mail - and one of a
> handful I have a hard time to disagree with. Same for Neil Bothwick. Just to
> name two that rank very highly on my privat list of good gentoo-user citizens.
>
> Because both know what they are talking about. Something that is very rare.

I'm not saying otherwise. I'm just saying that asking for "how long"
someone has "been around" to determine his "place in the pecking
order" it's laughable.

Just for the record, and although I'm a systemd user and supporter, I
don't agree with many of the things 微蔡 said, and I certainly don't
agree with the way he said them.

But still for Alan to ask for how long he has been on the list to
undermine his point of view, I think is laughable at the best, and
cheap at the worst.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Alan McKinnon]

On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:21:06 -0600
Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> >> Seniority != meritocracy. And I don't know how much "meritocratic"
> >> this list could be, since it is a users lists. The most "merit" a
> >> member of this list can get is to give technically acurate,
> >> constructive, and polite help for those users asking for it.
> >>
> >
> > in that case Alan certainly is at the very top.
> >
> > He is one of maybe three posters where I read every mail - and one
> > of a handful I have a hard time to disagree with. Same for Neil
> > Bothwick. Just to name two that rank very highly on my privat list
> > of good gentoo-user citizens.
> >
> > Because both know what they are talking about. Something that is
> > very rare.
> 
> I'm not saying otherwise. I'm just saying that asking for "how long"
> someone has "been around" to determine his "place in the pecking
> order" it's laughable.
> 
> Just for the record, and although I'm a systemd user and supporter, I
> don't agree with many of the things 微蔡 said, and I certainly don't
> agree with the way he said them.
> 
> But still for Alan to ask for how long he has been on the list to
> undermine his point of view, I think is laughable at the best, and
> cheap at the worst.

Now is the correct time to point out that you misinterpreted my post. I
didn't say so earlier for the simple reason that (in my world at least)
that always seems to pour gasoline on fires.

The intent was for 微蔡 to respond then I could point out that I felt
him coming in here brand new and making comments of "haters" and so on
was highly inappropriate and considered rude in almost all human
cultures. It is true that longevity doesn't buy much, but it is also
true that people in a group or community do have to establish at least
*some* street cred first. Sans that, we have little more than
mob-chaos. 

That didn't happen, partly as you got in first. But no bad feelings
from this end, you feel how you feel and that's how it is. And I'm
certainly not about to insist you change your viewpoint on life or
change who and what you are.

I'm going to pinch Dale's sig as I think it's relevant:

"I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood
or how you interpreted my words!"

There's no finger pointing in that, I find it a useful daily reminder
about how easy it is to misinterpret mail. God knows I've done more of
that myself than most.



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:21:06 -0600
> Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> [snip]
>> >> Seniority != meritocracy. And I don't know how much "meritocratic"
>> >> this list could be, since it is a users lists. The most "merit" a
>> >> member of this list can get is to give technically acurate,
>> >> constructive, and polite help for those users asking for it.
>> >>
>> >
>> > in that case Alan certainly is at the very top.
>> >
>> > He is one of maybe three posters where I read every mail - and one
>> > of a handful I have a hard time to disagree with. Same for Neil
>> > Bothwick. Just to name two that rank very highly on my privat list
>> > of good gentoo-user citizens.
>> >
>> > Because both know what they are talking about. Something that is
>> > very rare.
>>
>> I'm not saying otherwise. I'm just saying that asking for "how long"
>> someone has "been around" to determine his "place in the pecking
>> order" it's laughable.
>>
>> Just for the record, and although I'm a systemd user and supporter, I
>> don't agree with many of the things 微蔡 said, and I certainly don't
>> agree with the way he said them.
>>
>> But still for Alan to ask for how long he has been on the list to
>> undermine his point of view, I think is laughable at the best, and
>> cheap at the worst.
>
> Now is the correct time to point out that you misinterpreted my post. I
> didn't say so earlier for the simple reason that (in my world at least)
> that always seems to pour gasoline on fires.
>
> The intent was for 微蔡 to respond then I could point out that I felt
> him coming in here brand new and making comments of "haters" and so on
> was highly inappropriate and considered rude in almost all human
> cultures. It is true that longevity doesn't buy much, but it is also
> true that people in a group or community do have to establish at least
> *some* street cred first. Sans that, we have little more than
> mob-chaos.

I don't agree with that. It's a technical list, so the technical
arguments should be the only ones that matter, no matter who says them
or (to a certain degree) how they say them.

I didn't say anything about the members of the list responding to 微蔡
on at least one technical ground; yours was the first message I saw
that had not even a hint of a technical argument, but only a call for
proof of seniority. I felt that needed to be called out, because (IMO)
it serves no purpose and alienates users, specially new ones that feel
that they don't belong to a non-existing club.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Jorge Almeida]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 15:33:15 schrieb 微蔡:
>> 在 2012年11月10日 星期六 20:56:45，pk 写道：
>>
>> byebye  haters .  Comunitiy doesn't need people like you.
>
>
>
>>       You maybe paid by some Linux hate company to express like this.

This individual who writes to an English language list signing only with
Chinese characters has no idea about what "community" means.  In many years of
reading this list, I can't recall any intervention that even approaches this
sewerish vomit. I suppose that any list is bound to attract some troll sooner
or later, but isn't it a nice coincidence that this perl is a product of the
same totalitarian mindset that is determined to poison Linux?
>
>
> But what to expect from someone with a 'fedora' email adress. Fedora aka
> Redhat aka acting obnoxoius and pushing sub par solutions or try to be as
> incompatible as possible to everybody else....
>
Right. And what to expect from someone who boasts he "can learn anything I
want very very fast" (http://www.linkedin.com/in/microcai) and become (sic) "a
master of UNIX very soon", an "expert of all kinds" with "master knowledge"
after self-learning (sic) "Linux 3 years ago"? Yet, he couldn't spend one hour
learning good manners and another one learning English.

Cheers


Jorge Almeida

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[pk]

On 2012-11-11 13:24, Jorge Almeida wrote:

> or later, but isn't it a nice coincidence that this perl is a product of the
> same totalitarian mindset that is determined to poison Linux?

Can't we just calm down and try to be reasonably nice? I really didn't
intend to start a flame war here... I just reacted without thinking and
for that I apologise.

Best regards

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Jorge Almeida]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 1:38 PM, pk <peterk2@coolmail.se> wrote:
> On 2012-11-11 13:24, Jorge Almeida wrote:
>
>> or later, but isn't it a nice coincidence that this perl is a product of the
>> same totalitarian mindset that is determined to poison Linux?
>
> Can't we just calm down and try to be reasonably nice? I really didn't
> intend to start a flame war here... I just reacted without thinking and
> for that I apologise.
>
You don't have anything to apologise for, you didn't offend anyone. I shall
not apologise for reacting in strong terms to the intervention of someone who
thinks he is entitled to tell people who don't share his fancy to go away.

Best regards

Jorge Almeida

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[微蔡]

在 2012年11月11日 星期日 13:59:50，Jorge Almeida 写道：
> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 1:38 PM, pk <peterk2@coolmail.se> wrote:
> > On 2012-11-11 13:24, Jorge Almeida wrote:
> >> or later, but isn't it a nice coincidence that this perl is a product of
> >> the same totalitarian mindset that is determined to poison Linux?
> > 
> > Can't we just calm down and try to be reasonably nice? I really didn't
> > intend to start a flame war here... I just reacted without thinking and
> > for that I apologise.
> 
> You don't have anything to apologise for, you didn't offend anyone. I shall
> not apologise for reacting in strong terms to the intervention of someone
> who thinks he is entitled to tell people who don't share his fancy to go
> away.

You over reacted.


> 
> Best regards
> 
> Jorge Almeida
-- 
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< gentoo rocks >
 -------------- 
        \   ^__^
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            (__)\       )\/\
                ||----w |
                ||     ||

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Pandu Poluan]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1543 bytes --]

On Nov 11, 2012 9:22 PM, "微蔡" <microcai@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>
> 在 2012年11月11日 星期日 13:59:50，Jorge Almeida 写道：
> > On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 1:38 PM, pk <peterk2@coolmail.se> wrote:
> > > On 2012-11-11 13:24, Jorge Almeida wrote:
> > >> or later, but isn't it a nice coincidence that this perl is a
product of
> > >> the same totalitarian mindset that is determined to poison Linux?
> > >
> > > Can't we just calm down and try to be reasonably nice? I really didn't
> > > intend to start a flame war here... I just reacted without thinking
and
> > > for that I apologise.
> >
> > You don't have anything to apologise for, you didn't offend anyone. I
shall
> > not apologise for reacting in strong terms to the intervention of
someone
> > who thinks he is entitled to tell people who don't share his fancy to go
> > away.
>
> You over reacted.
>

No, it was you ('you' here referring to microcai/微蔡) who first trolled.

Everyone tends to react very strongly to trolls. And shills.

Read again your posting. You used words like 'byebye hater' and even went
out your way of accusing someone of being paid to hate something...

... yet you didn't post any tech points at all!

I was often at odds with Canek, and the discussion sometimes got heated,
but we keep countering with tech stuffs, codes, and many tech (edge) cases.

You, instead, did an ad hominem without debating technical merits. So,
don't blame people doing ad hominem attacks to you in reciprocal.

Rgds,
--

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[pk]

On 2012-11-11 08:33, 微蔡 wrote:

> byebye  haters .  Comunitiy doesn't need people like you.

Ah, instead of a rational explanation of what kind of problem systemd
solves for me you conclude: I'm a hater?... Well, I do hate solutions
looking for problems to solve, especially where there are none to solve,
and especially being forced into using them. So, I conclude: "The
community doesn't need people like YOU!"

> Then find something to boost the BIOS. Yeah , UEFI goes out, and you 
> say: BIOS is fine with me ,  I don't need UEFI. 

I'm running UEFI here (which runs on top of BIOS) on two motherboards.
If you think UEFI replaces BIOS, research it[1][2]. Yes, it's intended
to replace BIOS sometime (most likely very far) in the future.

[1]:http://www.extremetech.com/computing/96985-demystifying-uefi-the-long-overdue-bios-replacement
[2]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFI

For the record, I have bought equipment that can be made compatible with
coreboot, which I intend to "install" when I can find the time. coreboot
is a true BIOS replacement (basically it focuses on just initialising
the hardware and let "payloads" setup whatever services are needed).
Solving the "BIOS" problem permanently and with technical elegance. So
yes, I will replace UEFI/BIOS sometime in the future...

> 	You maybe paid by some Linux hate company to express like this.

Hm... maybe you're paid by some Linux hate company to destroy it from
within (also known as "astroturfer")? I see you have a fedora mail
address so why are you here on a Gentoo-list? Trying to push an
agenda/preach?

PS. I used to think Redhat was a really good "open source citizen" (I
even used their distro in the late 90'ies), and they still are in some
respects, but forcing, in my eyes, inferior technology onto the Linux
world is not ok, IMO.

Best regards

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[微蔡]

在 2012年11月11日 星期日 13:28:35，pk 写道：
> On 2012-11-11 08:33, 微蔡 wrote:
> > byebye  haters .  Comunitiy doesn't need people like you.
> 
> Ah, instead of a rational explanation of what kind of problem systemd
> solves for me you conclude: I'm a hater?... Well, I do hate solutions
> looking for problems to solve, especially where there are none to solve,
> and especially being forced into using them. So, I conclude: "The
> community doesn't need people like YOU!"
> 
> > Then find something to boost the BIOS. Yeah , UEFI goes out, and you
> > say: BIOS is fine with me ,  I don't need UEFI.
> 
> I'm running UEFI here (which runs on top of BIOS) on two motherboards.
> If you think UEFI replaces BIOS, research it[1][2]. Yes, it's intended
> to replace BIOS sometime (most likely very far) in the future.
> 
> [1]:http://www.extremetech.com/computing/96985-demystifying-uefi-the-long-ov
> erdue-bios-replacement [2]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFI
> 
> For the record, I have bought equipment that can be made compatible with
> coreboot, which I intend to "install" when I can find the time. coreboot
> is a true BIOS replacement (basically it focuses on just initialising
> the hardware and let "payloads" setup whatever services are needed).
> Solving the "BIOS" problem permanently and with technical elegance. So
> yes, I will replace UEFI/BIOS sometime in the future...
> 
> > 	You maybe paid by some Linux hate company to express like this.
> 
> Hm... maybe you're paid by some Linux hate company to destroy it from
> within (also known as "astroturfer")? I see you have a fedora mail
> address so why are you here on a Gentoo-list? Trying to push an
> agenda/preach?
> 
> PS. I used to think Redhat was a really good "open source citizen" (I
> even used their distro in the late 90'ies), and they still are in some
> respects, but forcing, in my eyes, inferior technology onto the Linux
> world is not ok, IMO.

ok , then why hate systemd ? you seems to hate systemd with no reason.

BTW: I don't work for Red Hat. We are behinde the Wall .  we work day and 
night for apple. even that, I don't have the so called "best job in china."

> 
> Best regards
> 
> Peter K
-- 
 ______________ 
< gentoo rocks >
 -------------- 
        \   ^__^
         \  (oo)\_______
            (__)\       )\/\
                ||----w |
                ||     ||

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[pk]

On 2012-11-11 13:52, 微蔡 wrote:

> ok , then why hate systemd ? you seems to hate systemd with no reason.

This is my last reply to this thread. I dislike systemd, for the reasons
I've already stated. Please re-read my responses if you want to know why
I dislike systemd. What I do _hate_ is being forced into using something
I don't want so I will look for solutions elsewhere, if need be.

Best regards

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Peter Humphrey]

On Sunday 11 November 2012 12:28:35 pk wrote:

> ... Well, I do hate solutions looking for problems to solve,

Not wishing to hijack the thread, but have you thought about lasers?

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Keith Dart]

Re
509F99F3.7060405@coolmail.se509F99F3.7060405@coolmail.se2592463.C9mGjqLMLj@gentook7k1hn$ce6$1@ger.gmane.org,
Peter Humphrey said:
> Not wishing to hijack the thread, but have you thought about lasers?

Light sabers are the future, dude!


-- Keith


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith@dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

[gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 10/11/12 00:53, walt wrote:
>[...]
> You Lennart haters out there (and I was one of you not so long ago ;)
> now I think he's not so bad after all.

I'll like systemd when I can just emerge it and have it working, just 
like I can with OpenRC :-)