[gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Dale]

Howdy,

I was doing a update a while back and noticed a ewarn, enotice or
something going by. I used the elogviewer to go back and dig it out.
This is what it says:

Found sources for kernel version:
3.5.0-gentoo
Checking for suitable kernel configuration options...
ERROR (setup)

CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: is not set when it should be.
WARN (setup)

Please check to make sure these options are set correctly.
Failure to do so may cause unexpected problems.

So, I go into the kernel's menuconfig and find this:

│ CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: │
│ │
│ If you say Y here, you can use driver calls or the sysfs │
│ "power/control" file to enable or disable autosuspend for │
│ individual USB peripherals (see │
│ Documentation/usb/power-management.txt for more details). │
│ │
│ Also, USB "remote wakeup" signaling is supported, whereby some │
│ USB devices (like keyboards and network adapters) can wake up │
│ their parent hub. That wakeup cascades up the USB tree, and │
│ could wake the system from states like suspend-to-RAM. │
│ │
│ If you are unsure about this, say N here. │
│ │
│ Symbol: USB_SUSPEND [=n] │
│ Type : boolean │
│ Prompt: USB runtime power management (autosuspend) and wakeup │
│ Defined at drivers/usb/core/Kconfig:41 │
│ Depends on: USB_SUPPORT [=y] && USB [=y] && PM_RUNTIME [=y] │
│ Location: │
│ -> Device Drivers │
│ -> USB support (USB_SUPPORT [=y]) │
│ -> Support for Host-side USB (USB [=y])

The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'.
Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't
think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that
it should be there.

This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not
needing it or udisk that says I do?

Opinions?

Dale

:-) :-)

P. S. The only things I have USB right now is my printer and a camera. I
may have a UPS added to that when I get around to rebooting again. I'm
not sure on how I will end up connecting it yet.

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:39 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
> The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'.
> Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't
> think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that
> it should be there.

I'll put it. The 'if you are unsure about this, say N here' is not a
warning; it means that it's probably safe not to put it. However,
udisks want it, so I would enable it.

> This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not
> needing it or udisk that says I do?

I suppose you connect from time to time USB sticks/hard drives onto
the machine (or at least want to be able to). I don't know how much
udisks depends on USB_SUSPEND, but if it's asking for it I don't see
any reason at all not to put it. It certainly will not hurt.

And BTW, the difference between desktop and laptop is getting smaller
and smaller every year. I suspend/hibernate my desktop almost as much
as I do my laptop.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Dale]

Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:39 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> [snip]
>> The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'.
>> Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't
>> think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that
>> it should be there.
> I'll put it. The 'if you are unsure about this, say N here' is not a
> warning; it means that it's probably safe not to put it. However,
> udisks want it, so I would enable it.

Well, I was "unsure" about it.  LOL

>> This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not
>> needing it or udisk that says I do?
> I suppose you connect from time to time USB sticks/hard drives onto
> the machine (or at least want to be able to). I don't know how much
> udisks depends on USB_SUSPEND, but if it's asking for it I don't see
> any reason at all not to put it. It certainly will not hurt.
>
> And BTW, the difference between desktop and laptop is getting smaller
> and smaller every year. I suspend/hibernate my desktop almost as much
> as I do my laptop.
>
> Regards.

Actually, except for a USB stick, I have not plugged a drive into a USB
port, YET.  I'm sure I will someday tho.  I hope to get one for backup
one of these days. 

Thanks much.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Pandu Poluan]

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On Sep 17, 2012 10:21 AM, "Dale" <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> > On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:39 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> > [snip]
> >> The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'.
> >> Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't
> >> think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that
> >> it should be there.
> > I'll put it. The 'if you are unsure about this, say N here' is not a
> > warning; it means that it's probably safe not to put it. However,
> > udisks want it, so I would enable it.
>
> Well, I was "unsure" about it.  LOL
>
> >> This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not
> >> needing it or udisk that says I do?
> > I suppose you connect from time to time USB sticks/hard drives onto
> > the machine (or at least want to be able to). I don't know how much
> > udisks depends on USB_SUSPEND, but if it's asking for it I don't see
> > any reason at all not to put it. It certainly will not hurt.
> >
> > And BTW, the difference between desktop and laptop is getting smaller
> > and smaller every year. I suspend/hibernate my desktop almost as much
> > as I do my laptop.
> >
> > Regards.
>
> Actually, except for a USB stick, I have not plugged a drive into a USB
> port, YET.  I'm sure I will someday tho.  I hope to get one for backup
> one of these days.
>
> Thanks much.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>

Kind of off-topic, but...

For backups, I prefer a bunch of disks in a RAID configuration. After all,
what good is an online backup system if the data becomes corrupted without
me realizing it...

I heard QNAP makes good ones. Or I can always make an LVM-based one,
booting off a USB stick. Still considering which route to take, though...
The former is more expensive, but the latter is not that much cheaper
either, considering I have to build a complete system with a honkin' big
casing + honkin' big PSU to feed them hard drives...

And neither provides an off-site backup...

Rgds,
--

Pandu E Poluan, ~ IT Optimizer ~

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Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Dale]

Pandu Poluan wrote:
>
>
> Kind of off-topic, but...
>
> For backups, I prefer a bunch of disks in a RAID configuration. After
> all, what good is an online backup system if the data becomes
> corrupted without me realizing it...
>
> I heard QNAP makes good ones. Or I can always make an LVM-based one,
> booting off a USB stick. Still considering which route to take,
> though... The former is more expensive, but the latter is not that
> much cheaper either, considering I have to build a complete system
> with a honkin' big casing + honkin' big PSU to feed them hard drives...
>
> And neither provides an off-site backup...
>
> Rgds,
> --
>
> Pandu E Poluan, ~ IT Optimizer ~
>

So far, knock on wood, I have only had one drive to die on me and I got
the data off before it did with some time to spare.  I agree with RAID
but what happens if the house catches fire?  What if someone breaks in
and steals my puter, even tho I'm a really good shot?  o_O   I usually
put my backups on DVD but when you start storing videos, that goes out
the window pretty fast.  So, I figure I'd just get me some sort of USB
drive and backup to that from time to time. 

Those questions are what happens when you try to account for each and
every thing that *can* happen tho.  It gets expensive pretty quick.  I
could just download most all the videos again so even if a few were to
get corrupted, I can most likely get them back.  Things I create myself,
I have backups on DVD since it is a MUCH smaller number.  Those DVDs are
in a separate building too, in case of fire or something.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Pandu Poluan]

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True... Had I only one computer, I would've gone the USB 3 route... 2 ext
HD, I backup to one for one or two weeks, then deposit the drive to an
off-site location, swapping it with the other HD, and use the second HD for
the next period.

Problem is, using a USB drive means I have to move it around, and I'm lazy,
so it won't work for me...

That's why I opt for a networked solution... Hmm, that begat an interesting
thought, though...

Anyone knows of a cheapo box (appliance) with USB 3.0 that can expose an
external HD to the network?

Rgds,
--

Pandu E Poluan, ~ IT Optimizer ~
On Sep 17, 2012 11:16 AM, "Dale" <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> Pandu Poluan wrote:
> >
> >
> > Kind of off-topic, but...
> >
> > For backups, I prefer a bunch of disks in a RAID configuration. After
> > all, what good is an online backup system if the data becomes
> > corrupted without me realizing it...
> >
> > I heard QNAP makes good ones. Or I can always make an LVM-based one,
> > booting off a USB stick. Still considering which route to take,
> > though... The former is more expensive, but the latter is not that
> > much cheaper either, considering I have to build a complete system
> > with a honkin' big casing + honkin' big PSU to feed them hard drives...
> >
> > And neither provides an off-site backup...
> >
> > Rgds,
> > --
> >
> > Pandu E Poluan, ~ IT Optimizer ~
> >
>
> So far, knock on wood, I have only had one drive to die on me and I got
> the data off before it did with some time to spare.  I agree with RAID
> but what happens if the house catches fire?  What if someone breaks in
> and steals my puter, even tho I'm a really good shot?  o_O   I usually
> put my backups on DVD but when you start storing videos, that goes out
> the window pretty fast.  So, I figure I'd just get me some sort of USB
> drive and backup to that from time to time.
>
> Those questions are what happens when you try to account for each and
> every thing that *can* happen tho.  It gets expensive pretty quick.  I
> could just download most all the videos again so even if a few were to
> get corrupted, I can most likely get them back.  Things I create myself,
> I have backups on DVD since it is a MUCH smaller number.  Those DVDs are
> in a separate building too, in case of fire or something.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>
> --
> I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or
> how you interpreted my words!
>
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Sonntag, 16. September 2012, 20:39:36 schrieb Dale:
> Howdy,
> 
> I was doing a update a while back and noticed a ewarn, enotice or
> something going by. I used the elogviewer to go back and dig it out.
> This is what it says:
> 
> Found sources for kernel version:
> 3.5.0-gentoo
> Checking for suitable kernel configuration options...
> ERROR (setup)
> 
> CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: is not set when it should be.
> WARN (setup)
> 
> Please check to make sure these options are set correctly.
> Failure to do so may cause unexpected problems.
> 
> So, I go into the kernel's menuconfig and find this:
> 
> │ CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: │
> │ │
> │ If you say Y here, you can use driver calls or the sysfs │
> │ "power/control" file to enable or disable autosuspend for │
> │ individual USB peripherals (see │
> │ Documentation/usb/power-management.txt for more details). │
> │ │
> │ Also, USB "remote wakeup" signaling is supported, whereby some │
> │ USB devices (like keyboards and network adapters) can wake up │
> │ their parent hub. That wakeup cascades up the USB tree, and │
> │ could wake the system from states like suspend-to-RAM. │
> │ │
> │ If you are unsure about this, say N here. │
> │ │
> │ Symbol: USB_SUSPEND [=n] │
> │ Type : boolean │
> │ Prompt: USB runtime power management (autosuspend) and wakeup │
> │ Defined at drivers/usb/core/Kconfig:41 │
> │ Depends on: USB_SUPPORT [=y] && USB [=y] && PM_RUNTIME [=y] │
> │ Location: │
> │ -> Device Drivers │
> │ -> USB support (USB_SUPPORT [=y]) │
> │ -> Support for Host-side USB (USB [=y])
> 
> The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'.
> Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't
> think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that
> it should be there.

you you never thought about turning on your system via keyboard instead of 
crawling under the table?

Also it says 'if unsure, say N' not 'experimental' or 'you should say 'N' 
here'.

Upower wants it, so there is no 'unsure'.

> 
> This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not
> needing it or udisk that says I do?

so what? is power managment not a good idea on a desktop`
> 
> Opinions?

yes, turn it on. 

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[covici]

Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Am Sonntag, 16. September 2012, 20:39:36 schrieb Dale:
> > Howdy,
> > 
> > I was doing a update a while back and noticed a ewarn, enotice or
> > something going by. I used the elogviewer to go back and dig it out.
> > This is what it says:
> > 
> > Found sources for kernel version:
> > 3.5.0-gentoo
> > Checking for suitable kernel configuration options...
> > ERROR (setup)
> > 
> > CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: is not set when it should be.
> > WARN (setup)
> > 
> > Please check to make sure these options are set correctly.
> > Failure to do so may cause unexpected problems.
> > 
> > So, I go into the kernel's menuconfig and find this:
> > 
> > │ CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: │
> > │ │
> > │ If you say Y here, you can use driver calls or the sysfs │
> > │ "power/control" file to enable or disable autosuspend for │
> > │ individual USB peripherals (see │
> > │ Documentation/usb/power-management.txt for more details). │
> > │ │
> > │ Also, USB "remote wakeup" signaling is supported, whereby some │
> > │ USB devices (like keyboards and network adapters) can wake up │
> > │ their parent hub. That wakeup cascades up the USB tree, and │
> > │ could wake the system from states like suspend-to-RAM. │
> > │ │
> > │ If you are unsure about this, say N here. │
> > │ │
> > │ Symbol: USB_SUSPEND [=n] │
> > │ Type : boolean │
> > │ Prompt: USB runtime power management (autosuspend) and wakeup │
> > │ Defined at drivers/usb/core/Kconfig:41 │
> > │ Depends on: USB_SUPPORT [=y] && USB [=y] && PM_RUNTIME [=y] │
> > │ Location: │
> > │ -> Device Drivers │
> > │ -> USB support (USB_SUPPORT [=y]) │
> > │ -> Support for Host-side USB (USB [=y])
> > 
> > The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'.
> > Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't
> > think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that
> > it should be there.
> 
> you you never thought about turning on your system via keyboard instead of 
> crawling under the table?
> 
> Also it says 'if unsure, say N' not 'experimental' or 'you should say 'N' 
> here'.
> 
> Upower wants it, so there is no 'unsure'.
> 
> > 
> > This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not
> > needing it or udisk that says I do?
> 
> so what? is power managment not a good idea on a desktop`
> > 
> > Opinions?
> 
> yes, turn it on. 

OK, sorry if this is a dumb question, but I did search for it using make
menuconfig, but could not actually find it!  I have all my usb host
controller drivers as modules, if that makes any difference.  I am using
3.4.0-gentoo.

-- 
Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
How do
you spend it?

         John Covici
         covici@ccs.covici.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Dale]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am Sonntag, 16. September 2012, 20:39:36 schrieb Dale:
>> The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'.
>> Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't
>> think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that
>> it should be there.
> you you never thought about turning on your system via keyboard instead of 
> crawling under the table?

Actually, no.  I have one of those large HAF 932 cases that is about the
same height as my keyboard.  It's just about as easy to hit one as it is
to hit the other.  Add in that I rarely reboot either.  I don't really
see the need to use my keyboard as a power switch, not for me anyway.  I
have one that is on top of the case, which is where it should be in my
opinion. 

>
> Also it says 'if unsure, say N' not 'experimental' or 'you should say 'N' 
> here'.
>
> Upower wants it, so there is no 'unsure'.

Is for me since I only use the power switch to cut mine off/on.  I want
to win the lottery but I doubt I ever will, especially since I never buy
a ticket.  lol  It may want it but it did compile without me turning it
on.  So it appears that it was not a deal breaker for the package and
rather doubtful I will use it.  I just wanted to check now before it
does become a deal breaker and I am forced to reboot for this one small
thing.

>
>> This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not
>> needing it or udisk that says I do?
> so what? is power managment not a good idea on a desktop`

Again, see above. 

>> Opinions?
> yes, turn it on. 
>

I did but I doubt it will be used anytime soon.  It has joined the other
things that must be there that is of really no, or very little use, to
me.  Maybe one day that will change.  ;-) 

At least now I know another use for this option. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:34:12 schrieb covici@ccs.covici.com:
> Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > Am Sonntag, 16. September 2012, 20:39:36 schrieb Dale:
> > > Howdy,
> > > 
> > > I was doing a update a while back and noticed a ewarn, enotice or
> > > something going by. I used the elogviewer to go back and dig it out.
> > > This is what it says:
> > > 
> > > Found sources for kernel version:
> > > 3.5.0-gentoo
> > > Checking for suitable kernel configuration options...
> > > ERROR (setup)
> > > 
> > > CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: is not set when it should be.
> > > WARN (setup)
> > > 
> > > Please check to make sure these options are set correctly.
> > > Failure to do so may cause unexpected problems.
> > > 
> > > So, I go into the kernel's menuconfig and find this:
> > > 
> > > │ CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: │
> > > │ │
> > > │ If you say Y here, you can use driver calls or the sysfs │
> > > │ "power/control" file to enable or disable autosuspend for │
> > > │ individual USB peripherals (see │
> > > │ Documentation/usb/power-management.txt for more details). │
> > > │ │
> > > │ Also, USB "remote wakeup" signaling is supported, whereby some │
> > > │ USB devices (like keyboards and network adapters) can wake up │
> > > │ their parent hub. That wakeup cascades up the USB tree, and │
> > > │ could wake the system from states like suspend-to-RAM. │
> > > │ │
> > > │ If you are unsure about this, say N here. │
> > > │ │
> > > │ Symbol: USB_SUSPEND [=n] │
> > > │ Type : boolean │
> > > │ Prompt: USB runtime power management (autosuspend) and wakeup │
> > > │ Defined at drivers/usb/core/Kconfig:41 │
> > > │ Depends on: USB_SUPPORT [=y] && USB [=y] && PM_RUNTIME [=y] │
> > > │ Location: │
> > > │ -> Device Drivers │
> > > │ -> USB support (USB_SUPPORT [=y]) │
> > > │ -> Support for Host-side USB (USB [=y])
> > > 
> > > The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'.
> > > Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't
> > > think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that
> > > it should be there.
> > 
> > you you never thought about turning on your system via keyboard instead of
> > crawling under the table?
> > 
> > Also it says 'if unsure, say N' not 'experimental' or 'you should say 'N'
> > here'.
> > 
> > Upower wants it, so there is no 'unsure'.
> > 
> > > This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not
> > > needing it or udisk that says I do?
> > 
> > so what? is power managment not a good idea on a desktop`
> > 
> > > Opinions?
> > 
> > yes, turn it on.
> 
> OK, sorry if this is a dumb question, but I did search for it using make
> menuconfig, but could not actually find it!  I have all my usb host
> controller drivers as modules, if that makes any difference.  I am using
> 3.4.0-gentoo.

hit / in menuconfig. It is there.
-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Michael Mol]

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:34:12 schrieb covici@ccs.covici.com:
>> Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> > Am Sonntag, 16. September 2012, 20:39:36 schrieb Dale:
>> > > Howdy,
>> > >
>> > > I was doing a update a while back and noticed a ewarn, enotice or
>> > > something going by. I used the elogviewer to go back and dig it out.
>> > > This is what it says:
>> > >
>> > > Found sources for kernel version:
>> > > 3.5.0-gentoo
>> > > Checking for suitable kernel configuration options...
>> > > ERROR (setup)
>> > >
>> > > CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: is not set when it should be.
>> > > WARN (setup)
>> > >
>> > > Please check to make sure these options are set correctly.
>> > > Failure to do so may cause unexpected problems.
>> > >
>> > > So, I go into the kernel's menuconfig and find this:
>> > >
>> > > │ CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: │
>> > > │ │
>> > > │ If you say Y here, you can use driver calls or the sysfs │
>> > > │ "power/control" file to enable or disable autosuspend for │
>> > > │ individual USB peripherals (see │
>> > > │ Documentation/usb/power-management.txt for more details). │
>> > > │ │
>> > > │ Also, USB "remote wakeup" signaling is supported, whereby some │
>> > > │ USB devices (like keyboards and network adapters) can wake up │
>> > > │ their parent hub. That wakeup cascades up the USB tree, and │
>> > > │ could wake the system from states like suspend-to-RAM. │
>> > > │ │
>> > > │ If you are unsure about this, say N here. │
>> > > │ │
>> > > │ Symbol: USB_SUSPEND [=n] │
>> > > │ Type : boolean │
>> > > │ Prompt: USB runtime power management (autosuspend) and wakeup │
>> > > │ Defined at drivers/usb/core/Kconfig:41 │
>> > > │ Depends on: USB_SUPPORT [=y] && USB [=y] && PM_RUNTIME [=y] │
>> > > │ Location: │
>> > > │ -> Device Drivers │
>> > > │ -> USB support (USB_SUPPORT [=y]) │
>> > > │ -> Support for Host-side USB (USB [=y])
>> > >
>> > > The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'.
>> > > Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't
>> > > think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that
>> > > it should be there.
>> >
>> > you you never thought about turning on your system via keyboard instead of
>> > crawling under the table?
>> >
>> > Also it says 'if unsure, say N' not 'experimental' or 'you should say 'N'
>> > here'.
>> >
>> > Upower wants it, so there is no 'unsure'.
>> >
>> > > This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not
>> > > needing it or udisk that says I do?
>> >
>> > so what? is power managment not a good idea on a desktop`
>> >
>> > > Opinions?
>> >
>> > yes, turn it on.
>>
>> OK, sorry if this is a dumb question, but I did search for it using make
>> menuconfig, but could not actually find it!  I have all my usb host
>> controller drivers as modules, if that makes any difference.  I am using
>> 3.4.0-gentoo.
>
> hit / in menuconfig. It is there.

Although I do believe you need to remove the CONFIG_ prefix before you search.

-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Dale]

Michael Mol wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:34:12 schrieb covici@ccs.covici.com:
>>> OK, sorry if this is a dumb question, but I did search for it using make
>>> menuconfig, but could not actually find it!  I have all my usb host
>>> controller drivers as modules, if that makes any difference.  I am using
>>> 3.4.0-gentoo.
>> hit / in menuconfig. It is there.
> Although I do believe you need to remove the CONFIG_ prefix before you search.
>

Also, there are also other options that must be turned on for it to show
up.  I had to enable other things before I could find it in the menu. 
This is another reason I asked the question on whether it is really
needed or not.  It wasn't just one thing I had to enable but a couple
other things too.  I'm still not sure I need either of those but . . .

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Felix Kuperjans]

Dale wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> I was doing a update a while back and noticed a ewarn, enotice or
> something going by. I used the elogviewer to go back and dig it out.
> This is what it says:
>
> Found sources for kernel version:
> 3.5.0-gentoo
> Checking for suitable kernel configuration options...
> ERROR (setup)
>
> CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: is not set when it should be.
> WARN (setup)
udisks will work without that, but if you try to safely unplug a USB
stick or other USB storage device, an error will occur because udisks is
unable to power off the device before unplugging.
The option is not required for its essential functionality, but it's
definitely useful and does not add any big overhead to the kernel, so I
always enable it and would recommend enabling it unless you have a
strong reason not to set it.
>
> Please check to make sure these options are set correctly.
> Failure to do so may cause unexpected problems.
>
> So, I go into the kernel's menuconfig and find this:
>
> │ CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: │
> │ │
> │ If you say Y here, you can use driver calls or the sysfs │
> │ "power/control" file to enable or disable autosuspend for │
> │ individual USB peripherals (see │
> │ Documentation/usb/power-management.txt for more details). │
> │ │
> │ Also, USB "remote wakeup" signaling is supported, whereby some │
> │ USB devices (like keyboards and network adapters) can wake up │
> │ their parent hub. That wakeup cascades up the USB tree, and │
> │ could wake the system from states like suspend-to-RAM. │
> │ │
> │ If you are unsure about this, say N here. │
This message is on a lot of important stuff, it just means you will be
able to use USB (at least on *some* machines) without enabling it.
As soon as you have any reason to set it or know what it does, this
recommendation is superfluous. Only take care if the help message says
something like:
* This is usually not needed, so if unsure, say no
* This is highly experimental, ...
* only set this as module ...
* Do not enable unless ...
In such cases, you should be sure what you are doing and usually no
ebuild would require options like that.
> │ │
> │ Symbol: USB_SUSPEND [=n] │
> │ Type : boolean │
> │ Prompt: USB runtime power management (autosuspend) and wakeup │
> │ Defined at drivers/usb/core/Kconfig:41 │
> │ Depends on: USB_SUPPORT [=y] && USB [=y] && PM_RUNTIME [=y] │
> │ Location: │
> │ -> Device Drivers │
> │ -> USB support (USB_SUPPORT [=y]) │
> │ -> Support for Host-side USB (USB [=y])
>
> The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'.
> Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't
> think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that
> it should be there.
>
> This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not
> needing it or udisk that says I do?
This option is only USB relevant and can be used on any laptop / desktop
system / whatever with USB support.
> Opinions?
>
> Dale
>
> :-) :-)
>
> P. S. The only things I have USB right now is my printer and a camera. I
> may have a UPS added to that when I get around to rebooting again. I'm
> not sure on how I will end up connecting it yet.
In case you have no USB sticks and never want to use any USB storage
device, you won't need udisks at all, try disabling the "udisks" USE
flags on your desktop packages (esp. gvfs).

Regards,
Felix

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Michael Mol]

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Michael Mol wrote:
>> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:34:12 schrieb covici@ccs.covici.com:
>>>> OK, sorry if this is a dumb question, but I did search for it using make
>>>> menuconfig, but could not actually find it!  I have all my usb host
>>>> controller drivers as modules, if that makes any difference.  I am using
>>>> 3.4.0-gentoo.
>>> hit / in menuconfig. It is there.
>> Although I do believe you need to remove the CONFIG_ prefix before you search.
>>
>
> Also, there are also other options that must be turned on for it to show
> up.  I had to enable other things before I could find it in the menu.
> This is another reason I asked the question on whether it is really
> needed or not.  It wasn't just one thing I had to enable but a couple
> other things too.  I'm still not sure I need either of those but . . .

You do, for the same reason you need electricity; you may not use
electricity directly, but something you use does.

Similarly, you may not need this config option, but something you use
does (or something you use uses something you use which does).

Further, the config option won't be available unless all of the things
_it_ uses are enabled. So, if this config option X isn't available
because it needs config option Y, you need config option Y, because
you need config option X, because you need udisks, because you need
something which needs udisks.

So if some option X says "don't enable this unless you need it", and
you need some option Z, which says it needs option X, then, yes, you
need option X, because you need option Z.

This is what Volker meant when he said that there was no 'unsure' at
play. Since you're sure you want udisk (because you installed it),
then, logically following, you're sure you want whatever udisk depends
on. (Either that, or you're not being logical. ^^ )

-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Dale]

Michael Mol wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Michael Mol wrote:
>>> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>>> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>> Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:34:12 schrieb covici@ccs.covici.com:
>>>>> OK, sorry if this is a dumb question, but I did search for it using make
>>>>> menuconfig, but could not actually find it!  I have all my usb host
>>>>> controller drivers as modules, if that makes any difference.  I am using
>>>>> 3.4.0-gentoo.
>>>> hit / in menuconfig. It is there.
>>> Although I do believe you need to remove the CONFIG_ prefix before you search.
>>>
>> Also, there are also other options that must be turned on for it to show
>> up.  I had to enable other things before I could find it in the menu.
>> This is another reason I asked the question on whether it is really
>> needed or not.  It wasn't just one thing I had to enable but a couple
>> other things too.  I'm still not sure I need either of those but . . .
> You do, for the same reason you need electricity; you may not use
> electricity directly, but something you use does.
>
> Similarly, you may not need this config option, but something you use
> does (or something you use uses something you use which does).
>
> Further, the config option won't be available unless all of the things
> _it_ uses are enabled. So, if this config option X isn't available
> because it needs config option Y, you need config option Y, because
> you need config option X, because you need udisks, because you need
> something which needs udisks.
>
> So if some option X says "don't enable this unless you need it", and
> you need some option Z, which says it needs option X, then, yes, you
> need option X, because you need option Z.
>
> This is what Volker meant when he said that there was no 'unsure' at
> play. Since you're sure you want udisk (because you installed it),
> then, logically following, you're sure you want whatever udisk depends
> on. (Either that, or you're not being logical. ^^ )
>


But, I was still unsure.  If it wants me to enable the option for
battery monitoring, do I do that too?  I don't have any batteries but it
wants the option enabled so to use your logic, I must need it because it
asks for it even tho I don't use it and can't use it.  As I posted
earlier, I have no plan to use this so how can my system use it when I
have nothing here to use it?  One example in another reply was to use
the keyboard as a power switch.  I have a old style keyboard that
doesn't have all those extra keys.  I'm not sure I could use my keyboard
to turn on my system given it is the old style.  So, if that is one
example of what that is used for, then that is likely to never happen. 
My system isn't capable of using it regardless of the fact it wants the
option.  Enabling the option in the kernel does not give me a new
keyboard.  ^_^

Logic works most of the time but not all the time.  I don't feel that I
need any of these options.  Since the package completed its compile
without it, I apparently have the option to leave it out.  Thing is, I
didn't know what it is for and whether I should enable it so I was
"unsure" about the option. 

I did enable it but only because it isn't going to be something that
borks my system, unlike trying to monitor batteries that don't exist.  LOL 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Dale]

Felix Kuperjans wrote:
> Dale wrote:
>> Howdy,
>>
>> I was doing a update a while back and noticed a ewarn, enotice or
>> something going by. I used the elogviewer to go back and dig it out.
>> This is what it says:
>>
>> Found sources for kernel version:
>> 3.5.0-gentoo
>> Checking for suitable kernel configuration options...
>> ERROR (setup)
>>
>> CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: is not set when it should be.
>> WARN (setup)
> udisks will work without that, but if you try to safely unplug a USB
> stick or other USB storage device, an error will occur because udisks is
> unable to power off the device before unplugging.
> The option is not required for its essential functionality, but it's
> definitely useful and does not add any big overhead to the kernel, so I
> always enable it and would recommend enabling it unless you have a
> strong reason not to set it.


Ahhh, this was helpful info.  I do use sticks but right now that is the
only storage thing I use on my system.  Everything else is printer,
camera etc etc.  So, this will 'improve' how a USB stick works too.  Neat. 

>> Please check to make sure these options are set correctly.
>> Failure to do so may cause unexpected problems.
>>
>> So, I go into the kernel's menuconfig and find this:
>>
>> │ CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND: │
>> │ │
>> │ If you say Y here, you can use driver calls or the sysfs │
>> │ "power/control" file to enable or disable autosuspend for │
>> │ individual USB peripherals (see │
>> │ Documentation/usb/power-management.txt for more details). │
>> │ │
>> │ Also, USB "remote wakeup" signaling is supported, whereby some │
>> │ USB devices (like keyboards and network adapters) can wake up │
>> │ their parent hub. That wakeup cascades up the USB tree, and │
>> │ could wake the system from states like suspend-to-RAM. │
>> │ │
>> │ If you are unsure about this, say N here. │
> This message is on a lot of important stuff, it just means you will be
> able to use USB (at least on *some* machines) without enabling it.
> As soon as you have any reason to set it or know what it does, this
> recommendation is superfluous. Only take care if the help message says
> something like:
> * This is usually not needed, so if unsure, say no
> * This is highly experimental, ...
> * only set this as module ...
> * Do not enable unless ...
> In such cases, you should be sure what you are doing and usually no
> ebuild would require options like that.

Yea, I just didn't know what it was for so I went with the unsure part. 
Generally, if I am unsure, I leave it out.  Thing is, I had a package
that hinted it would like to have it.  Hence the question about what
this was and such.  I wanted to take the 'un' out of unsure.  lol

>> │ │
>> │ Symbol: USB_SUSPEND [=n] │
>> │ Type : boolean │
>> │ Prompt: USB runtime power management (autosuspend) and wakeup │
>> │ Defined at drivers/usb/core/Kconfig:41 │
>> │ Depends on: USB_SUPPORT [=y] && USB [=y] && PM_RUNTIME [=y] │
>> │ Location: │
>> │ -> Device Drivers │
>> │ -> USB support (USB_SUPPORT [=y]) │
>> │ -> Support for Host-side USB (USB [=y])
>>
>> The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'.
>> Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't
>> think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that
>> it should be there.
>>
>> This is a desktop system not a laptop. Do I need to listen to me not
>> needing it or udisk that says I do?
> This option is only USB relevant and can be used on any laptop / desktop
> system / whatever with USB support.

I got that now.  The info above helped on that one. 

>> Opinions?
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-) :-)
>>
>> P. S. The only things I have USB right now is my printer and a camera. I
>> may have a UPS added to that when I get around to rebooting again. I'm
>> not sure on how I will end up connecting it yet.
> In case you have no USB sticks and never want to use any USB storage
> device, you won't need udisks at all, try disabling the "udisks" USE
> flags on your desktop packages (esp. gvfs).
>
> Regards,
> Felix
>
>

I do plan to get a external USB drive one of these days.  So, it is
enabled and I'm now 'sure' about it.  ;-)   You applied power to my
light bulb. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Michael Mol]

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Michael Mol wrote:
>> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Michael Mol wrote:
>>>> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>>>> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:34:12 schrieb covici@ccs.covici.com:
>>>>>> OK, sorry if this is a dumb question, but I did search for it using make
>>>>>> menuconfig, but could not actually find it!  I have all my usb host
>>>>>> controller drivers as modules, if that makes any difference.  I am using
>>>>>> 3.4.0-gentoo.
>>>>> hit / in menuconfig. It is there.
>>>> Although I do believe you need to remove the CONFIG_ prefix before you search.
>>>>
>>> Also, there are also other options that must be turned on for it to show
>>> up.  I had to enable other things before I could find it in the menu.
>>> This is another reason I asked the question on whether it is really
>>> needed or not.  It wasn't just one thing I had to enable but a couple
>>> other things too.  I'm still not sure I need either of those but . . .
>> You do, for the same reason you need electricity; you may not use
>> electricity directly, but something you use does.
>>
>> Similarly, you may not need this config option, but something you use
>> does (or something you use uses something you use which does).
>>
>> Further, the config option won't be available unless all of the things
>> _it_ uses are enabled. So, if this config option X isn't available
>> because it needs config option Y, you need config option Y, because
>> you need config option X, because you need udisks, because you need
>> something which needs udisks.
>>
>> So if some option X says "don't enable this unless you need it", and
>> you need some option Z, which says it needs option X, then, yes, you
>> need option X, because you need option Z.
>>
>> This is what Volker meant when he said that there was no 'unsure' at
>> play. Since you're sure you want udisk (because you installed it),
>> then, logically following, you're sure you want whatever udisk depends
>> on. (Either that, or you're not being logical. ^^ )
>>
>
>
> But, I was still unsure.  If it wants me to enable the option for
> battery monitoring, do I do that too?  I don't have any batteries but it
> wants the option enabled so to use your logic, I must need it because it
> asks for it even tho I don't use it and can't use it.

When it comes to software, even if you don't actively use a thing, you
may depend on it being there. The reasons involved could come from any
of dozens of programming issues you may be unaware of or uncaring of;
it could come from the need of a programmer to simplify his reasoning
about a system in order to simplify his code (or the problem his code
is trying to solve). It could come from some automatic linking process
that looks for a symbol even if the function that symbol represents is
never called in practice. It could come from some indirect artifact of
the thing being there.

You're trying to apply a holistic reasoning basis to a deterministic
dependency problem. That kind of logic is the same kind of logic that
leads to stories such as "but why won't you plug in your computer?"
"because it makes a lot of noise. Why won't my computer work?"
"Because it needs power, so you need to plug it in." "But it makes a
lot of noise."

Apologies for the crass analogy, but it really is the same thing, just
at a different technical depth.

-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Peter Humphrey]

On Monday 17 September 2012 16:57:49 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> so what? is power managment not a good idea on a desktop

Not on this one, no. It spends its life running BOINC applications. You 
know, contributing something back for all the help I've gained.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 3:26 PM, Peter Humphrey
<peter@humphrey.ukfsn.org> wrote:
> On Monday 17 September 2012 16:57:49 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>
>> so what? is power managment not a good idea on a desktop
>
> Not on this one, no. It spends its life running BOINC applications. You
> know, contributing something back for all the help I've gained.

I believe that's the beauty of options like CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND. If you
leave the machine running crunching numbers (of whatever), with
USB_SUSPEND the devices not used (say, the backup disk you transfer to
the results of your crunching every weekend) can be suspended, saving
a little bit of power.

You don't leave the monitor turned on and disable the power off
features of it, right?

Really, I think many others have contributed enough reasons to make it
obvious that there is no reason to not turn on this kind of options in
the kernel.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Dale]

Michael Mol wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Michael Mol wrote:
>>> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Michael Mol wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>>>>> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:34:12 schrieb covici@ccs.covici.com:
>>>>>>> OK, sorry if this is a dumb question, but I did search for it using make
>>>>>>> menuconfig, but could not actually find it!  I have all my usb host
>>>>>>> controller drivers as modules, if that makes any difference.  I am using
>>>>>>> 3.4.0-gentoo.
>>>>>> hit / in menuconfig. It is there.
>>>>> Although I do believe you need to remove the CONFIG_ prefix before you search.
>>>>>
>>>> Also, there are also other options that must be turned on for it to show
>>>> up.  I had to enable other things before I could find it in the menu.
>>>> This is another reason I asked the question on whether it is really
>>>> needed or not.  It wasn't just one thing I had to enable but a couple
>>>> other things too.  I'm still not sure I need either of those but . . .
>>> You do, for the same reason you need electricity; you may not use
>>> electricity directly, but something you use does.
>>>
>>> Similarly, you may not need this config option, but something you use
>>> does (or something you use uses something you use which does).
>>>
>>> Further, the config option won't be available unless all of the things
>>> _it_ uses are enabled. So, if this config option X isn't available
>>> because it needs config option Y, you need config option Y, because
>>> you need config option X, because you need udisks, because you need
>>> something which needs udisks.
>>>
>>> So if some option X says "don't enable this unless you need it", and
>>> you need some option Z, which says it needs option X, then, yes, you
>>> need option X, because you need option Z.
>>>
>>> This is what Volker meant when he said that there was no 'unsure' at
>>> play. Since you're sure you want udisk (because you installed it),
>>> then, logically following, you're sure you want whatever udisk depends
>>> on. (Either that, or you're not being logical. ^^ )
>>>
>>
>> But, I was still unsure.  If it wants me to enable the option for
>> battery monitoring, do I do that too?  I don't have any batteries but it
>> wants the option enabled so to use your logic, I must need it because it
>> asks for it even tho I don't use it and can't use it.
> When it comes to software, even if you don't actively use a thing, you
> may depend on it being there. The reasons involved could come from any
> of dozens of programming issues you may be unaware of or uncaring of;
> it could come from the need of a programmer to simplify his reasoning
> about a system in order to simplify his code (or the problem his code
> is trying to solve). It could come from some automatic linking process
> that looks for a symbol even if the function that symbol represents is
> never called in practice. It could come from some indirect artifact of
> the thing being there.
>
> You're trying to apply a holistic reasoning basis to a deterministic
> dependency problem. That kind of logic is the same kind of logic that
> leads to stories such as "but why won't you plug in your computer?"
> "because it makes a lot of noise. Why won't my computer work?"
> "Because it needs power, so you need to plug it in." "But it makes a
> lot of noise."
>
> Apologies for the crass analogy, but it really is the same thing, just
> at a different technical depth.
>

But as I said, the package did compile without it.  Since it did compile
without it, it was not a hard, must have, requirement.  If the package
would have failed to compile, then I would either have to get rid of the
package or enable the option.  The message said it should have the
option just like one should give the computer power.  Thing is, my
system was working just fine without the option before.  Heck, I still
may not really need the option.  The software would just like to have
it.  I may even be able to get rid of the software which would be the
next thing if I didn't choose to enable the kernel option.  I'm pretty
sure it is KDE that is pulling all this extra stuff in. 

Now that I know more about the option, I added it.  Maybe when I reboot
it will be happy.  ;-) 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Dale]

Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> You don't leave the monitor turned on and disable the power off
> features of it, right?

< raises hand >  I leave mine on unless I turn off my puter too. 
Actually, I just tested the power save thingy and for some reason, mine
doesn't cut the monitor off.  So, mine runs all the time and looks like
it will be that way for a while, unless I can figure out why it doesn't
want to take a nap. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Peter Humphrey]

On Monday 17 September 2012 22:22:50 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:

> I believe that's the beauty of options like CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND. If
> you leave the machine running crunching numbers (of whatever), with
> USB_SUSPEND the devices not used (say, the backup disk you transfer
> to the results of your crunching every weekend) can be suspended,
> saving a little bit of power.

No, I don't need that, having no superfluous devices connected. My weekly 
backup is of the entire system to an external USB disk. Not from the 
running system; I reboot to a mini system (which I call a rescue system) 
each Sunday morning and backup the entire system to USB disk. So far I 
haven't needed to recover more than a small section of the backup.

> You don't leave the monitor turned on and disable the power off
> features of it, right?

I resent the kernel's insistence on deciding when my monitor should be 
switched off. I'm perfectly capable of doing that myself, thank you very 
much.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Michael Mol]

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 8:25 PM, Peter Humphrey
<peter@humphrey.ukfsn.org> wrote:
> On Monday 17 September 2012 22:22:50 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>
>> I believe that's the beauty of options like CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND. If
>> you leave the machine running crunching numbers (of whatever), with
>> USB_SUSPEND the devices not used (say, the backup disk you transfer
>> to the results of your crunching every weekend) can be suspended,
>> saving a little bit of power.
>
> No, I don't need that, having no superfluous devices connected. My weekly
> backup is of the entire system to an external USB disk. Not from the
> running system; I reboot to a mini system (which I call a rescue system)
> each Sunday morning and backup the entire system to USB disk. So far I
> haven't needed to recover more than a small section of the backup.
>
>> You don't leave the monitor turned on and disable the power off
>> features of it, right?
>
> I resent the kernel's insistence on deciding when my monitor should be
> switched off. I'm perfectly capable of doing that myself, thank you very
> much.

There's a sysctl for that. I don't remember what it is off the top of my head.

-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 7:25 PM, Peter Humphrey
<peter@humphrey.ukfsn.org> wrote:
> On Monday 17 September 2012 22:22:50 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>
>> I believe that's the beauty of options like CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND. If
>> you leave the machine running crunching numbers (of whatever), with
>> USB_SUSPEND the devices not used (say, the backup disk you transfer
>> to the results of your crunching every weekend) can be suspended,
>> saving a little bit of power.
>
> No, I don't need that, having no superfluous devices connected. My weekly
> backup is of the entire system to an external USB disk. Not from the
> running system; I reboot to a mini system (which I call a rescue system)
> each Sunday morning and backup the entire system to USB disk. So far I
> haven't needed to recover more than a small section of the backup.
>
>> You don't leave the monitor turned on and disable the power off
>> features of it, right?
>
> I resent the kernel's insistence on deciding when my monitor should be
> switched off. I'm perfectly capable of doing that myself, thank you very
> much.

Well, if that's the way you feel, you obviously don't use (nor need)
udisks, and take care of everything that goes on with your machine,
like when to flush I/O or when to move memory pages to swap.

Me? I'm lazy; the more my OS takes trivial decisions from me, the more
time I have to do interesting stuff and get actual work done. That's
why I use Linux/systemd/PulseAudio/bluez/GNOME; the decisions they
take are usually the smart ones (from my point of view).

But that's just me.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tuesday 18 September 2012 02:13:14 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 7:25 PM, Peter Humphrey
> 
> <peter@humphrey.ukfsn.org> wrote:
> > I resent the kernel's insistence on deciding when my monitor should
> > be switched off. I'm perfectly capable of doing that myself, thank
> > you very much.
> 
> Well, if that's the way you feel, you obviously don't use (nor need)
> udisks, and take care of everything that goes on with your machine,
> like when to flush I/O or when to move memory pages to swap.

No, of course not. That would be silly. I just like to have the monitor 
under my control, that's all.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Michael Mol]

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Peter Humphrey
<peter@humphrey.ukfsn.org> wrote:
> On Tuesday 18 September 2012 02:13:14 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 7:25 PM, Peter Humphrey
>>
>> <peter@humphrey.ukfsn.org> wrote:
>> > I resent the kernel's insistence on deciding when my monitor should
>> > be switched off. I'm perfectly capable of doing that myself, thank
>> > you very much.
>>
>> Well, if that's the way you feel, you obviously don't use (nor need)
>> udisks, and take care of everything that goes on with your machine,
>> like when to flush I/O or when to move memory pages to swap.
>
> No, of course not. That would be silly. I just like to have the monitor
> under my control, that's all.

You do. You can turn it off and on via the hardware switch on it, and
you can disable the kernel's turning it off via software controls.

"man setterm"

You have the ability to explicitly control display powersave behaviors
using the -powersave and -powerdown options.

If you're in X, you have xset.

"xset -dpms" turns Energy Star features off.
"xset +dpms" turns them on.
"xset dpms force off" turns your display off.
"xset dpms force on" turns your display on.

Run 'xset' in an xterm to see all the options you have available there.

If you're running xscreensaver, you can control its use of DPMS in the
configuration window offered by the "xscreensaver-demo" program. GNOME
and KDE also provide similar knobs.

-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:57:49 schrieb Dale:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > Am Sonntag, 16. September 2012, 20:39:36 schrieb Dale:
> >> The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'.
> >> Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't
> >> think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that
> >> it should be there.
> > 
> > you you never thought about turning on your system via keyboard instead of
> > crawling under the table?
> 
> Actually, no.  I have one of those large HAF 932 cases that is about the
> same height as my keyboard.  It's just about as easy to hit one as it is
> to hit the other.  Add in that I rarely reboot either.  I don't really
> see the need to use my keyboard as a power switch, not for me anyway.  I
> have one that is on top of the case, which is where it should be in my
> opinion.

so you let your box run full power all the time?

Doesn't that sound.... stupid?

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Dale]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:57:49 schrieb Dale:
>> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>> Am Sonntag, 16. September 2012, 20:39:36 schrieb Dale:
>>>> The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'.
>>>> Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't
>>>> think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that
>>>> it should be there.
>>> you you never thought about turning on your system via keyboard instead of
>>> crawling under the table?
>> Actually, no.  I have one of those large HAF 932 cases that is about the
>> same height as my keyboard.  It's just about as easy to hit one as it is
>> to hit the other.  Add in that I rarely reboot either.  I don't really
>> see the need to use my keyboard as a power switch, not for me anyway.  I
>> have one that is on top of the case, which is where it should be in my
>> opinion.
> so you let your box run full power all the time?
>
> Doesn't that sound.... stupid?
>


No.  To me, turning a puter on/off whenever you walk away is sort of
stupid.  Me, I never know when I will be needing my puter and I don't
want to wait for it to boot up and get me logged in every time I want to
use it.  The power it pulls is about the same as me leaving a light bulb
on.  So, in my opinion and for my usage, leaving it on is not stupid. 
Doing the opposite could be closer to stupid.  Same for my TV.  The only
time I turn my TV off is when I am leaving the house for a good long
while.  Before you say that I am wearing out my TV, my last TV was well
over 20 years old and the only repairs to it was replacing the speakers
that dried out.  It was still working when I ran up on this half price
sale for my current TV.  I gave the old TV to a friend and as far as I
know, it still works. 

I'm not saying that *MY* usage should be the same as someone else's.  At
the same time, mine should not be the same as yours or others.  Just as
a example.  I'm downloading TV shows from various websites.  When I get
ready to go to bed, I line up several videos for download.  It may
download for hours while I sleep.  Heck, I sometimes wake up before it
gets through and I add more to the list.  I can't do that if I shutdown
my computer each time I walk away. 

Stupid, not even close.

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 1:29 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>> Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:57:49 schrieb Dale:
>>> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>>> Am Sonntag, 16. September 2012, 20:39:36 schrieb Dale:
>>>>> The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'.
>>>>> Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't
>>>>> think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that
>>>>> it should be there.
>>>> you you never thought about turning on your system via keyboard instead of
>>>> crawling under the table?
>>> Actually, no.  I have one of those large HAF 932 cases that is about the
>>> same height as my keyboard.  It's just about as easy to hit one as it is
>>> to hit the other.  Add in that I rarely reboot either.  I don't really
>>> see the need to use my keyboard as a power switch, not for me anyway.  I
>>> have one that is on top of the case, which is where it should be in my
>>> opinion.
>> so you let your box run full power all the time?
>>
>> Doesn't that sound.... stupid?
>>
>
>
> No.  To me, turning a puter on/off whenever you walk away is sort of
> stupid.  Me, I never know when I will be needing my puter and I don't
> want to wait for it to boot up and get me logged in every time I want to
> use it.  The power it pulls is about the same as me leaving a light bulb
> on.  So, in my opinion and for my usage, leaving it on is not stupid.
> Doing the opposite could be closer to stupid.  Same for my TV.  The only
> time I turn my TV off is when I am leaving the house for a good long
> while.  Before you say that I am wearing out my TV, my last TV was well
> over 20 years old and the only repairs to it was replacing the speakers
> that dried out.  It was still working when I ran up on this half price
> sale for my current TV.  I gave the old TV to a friend and as far as I
> know, it still works.
>
> I'm not saying that *MY* usage should be the same as someone else's.  At
> the same time, mine should not be the same as yours or others.  Just as
> a example.  I'm downloading TV shows from various websites.  When I get
> ready to go to bed, I line up several videos for download.  It may
> download for hours while I sleep.  Heck, I sometimes wake up before it
> gets through and I add more to the list.  I can't do that if I shutdown
> my computer each time I walk away.
>
> Stupid, not even close.

Maybe not stupid under some definitions, but a waste of power for
sure. When I leave my house, I hibernate my computer; that way I can
even unplug the regulator where everything is connected, so not even
standby energy is wasted. When I'm in my house but not on the
computer, I suspend it.

When I turn it on from being hibernated, it takes about 10 seconds to
get to my full desktop. When I wake it up from suspension, it takes
less than 2 seconds. When it is suspended, it wastes 5 watts (instead
of 4 when it's turned off, but connected to the power grid), according
to:

http://jeff.ecchi.ca/blog/2012/08/05/staring-into-the-axis-abyss-the-railgun-map/

Of course it would be more comfortable to just leave it on all the
time. It would also be more comfortable to not separate organic and
inorganic waste.

Oh, and by the way, what kind of light bulbs do you use that waste as
much power as your PC? Mine uses 15 watts; it's one of the new CFLs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp

It is more expensive, and it's a pain to dispose it; but it gives the
same light that a 75 watts normal light bulb, and it pays itself on
electric bills only. Also, it will last longer.

When I moved in with my GF, her electric bill shoot up to the roof (I
brought my 46" LCD TV, PlayStation 3, and in total 5 computers and
other electronics). After a couple of months of shock of seeing the
electric bills, we started to do this kind of stuff
(suspending/hibernating our machines, using CFL instead of normal
light bulbs, etc.), and we cut the spending almost in four.

It is a *little* inconvenience (waiting a few seconds for the TV, the
PS3 or the PC to wake up), but huge money savings.

THAT is certainly not stupid.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Dale]

Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 1:29 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>> Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 12:57:49 schrieb Dale:
>>>> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>>>> Am Sonntag, 16. September 2012, 20:39:36 schrieb Dale:
>>>>>> The important part is about 'if you are unsure about this, say N here'.
>>>>>> Well, I don't think I need USB remote wakeup or anything so I don't
>>>>>> think I need this but at the same time, udisk is giving me notice that
>>>>>> it should be there.
>>>>> you you never thought about turning on your system via keyboard instead of
>>>>> crawling under the table?
>>>> Actually, no.  I have one of those large HAF 932 cases that is about the
>>>> same height as my keyboard.  It's just about as easy to hit one as it is
>>>> to hit the other.  Add in that I rarely reboot either.  I don't really
>>>> see the need to use my keyboard as a power switch, not for me anyway.  I
>>>> have one that is on top of the case, which is where it should be in my
>>>> opinion.
>>> so you let your box run full power all the time?
>>>
>>> Doesn't that sound.... stupid?
>>>
>>
>> No.  To me, turning a puter on/off whenever you walk away is sort of
>> stupid.  Me, I never know when I will be needing my puter and I don't
>> want to wait for it to boot up and get me logged in every time I want to
>> use it.  The power it pulls is about the same as me leaving a light bulb
>> on.  So, in my opinion and for my usage, leaving it on is not stupid.
>> Doing the opposite could be closer to stupid.  Same for my TV.  The only
>> time I turn my TV off is when I am leaving the house for a good long
>> while.  Before you say that I am wearing out my TV, my last TV was well
>> over 20 years old and the only repairs to it was replacing the speakers
>> that dried out.  It was still working when I ran up on this half price
>> sale for my current TV.  I gave the old TV to a friend and as far as I
>> know, it still works.
>>
>> I'm not saying that *MY* usage should be the same as someone else's.  At
>> the same time, mine should not be the same as yours or others.  Just as
>> a example.  I'm downloading TV shows from various websites.  When I get
>> ready to go to bed, I line up several videos for download.  It may
>> download for hours while I sleep.  Heck, I sometimes wake up before it
>> gets through and I add more to the list.  I can't do that if I shutdown
>> my computer each time I walk away.
>>
>> Stupid, not even close.
> Maybe not stupid under some definitions, but a waste of power for
> sure. When I leave my house, I hibernate my computer; that way I can
> even unplug the regulator where everything is connected, so not even
> standby energy is wasted. When I'm in my house but not on the
> computer, I suspend it.
>
> When I turn it on from being hibernated, it takes about 10 seconds to
> get to my full desktop. When I wake it up from suspension, it takes
> less than 2 seconds. When it is suspended, it wastes 5 watts (instead
> of 4 when it's turned off, but connected to the power grid), according
> to:
>
> http://jeff.ecchi.ca/blog/2012/08/05/staring-into-the-axis-abyss-the-railgun-map/
>
> Of course it would be more comfortable to just leave it on all the
> time. It would also be more comfortable to not separate organic and
> inorganic waste.
>
> Oh, and by the way, what kind of light bulbs do you use that waste as
> much power as your PC? Mine uses 15 watts; it's one of the new CFLs:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp
>
> It is more expensive, and it's a pain to dispose it; but it gives the
> same light that a 75 watts normal light bulb, and it pays itself on
> electric bills only. Also, it will last longer.
>
> When I moved in with my GF, her electric bill shoot up to the roof (I
> brought my 46" LCD TV, PlayStation 3, and in total 5 computers and
> other electronics). After a couple of months of shock of seeing the
> electric bills, we started to do this kind of stuff
> (suspending/hibernating our machines, using CFL instead of normal
> light bulbs, etc.), and we cut the spending almost in four.
>
> It is a *little* inconvenience (waiting a few seconds for the TV, the
> PS3 or the PC to wake up), but huge money savings.
>
> THAT is certainly not stupid.
>
> Regards.

I guess you pay more per Kwatt than I do then.  I would much rather cut
back on something else than my computer.

I still use the old style bulbs a lot.  I do have some of those little
swirly things but not everywhere. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:53:53 -0500
Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:

> When I moved in with my GF, her electric bill shoot up to the roof (I
> brought my 46" LCD TV, PlayStation 3, and in total 5 computers and
> other electronics). After a couple of months of shock of seeing the
> electric bills, we started to do this kind of stuff
> (suspending/hibernating our machines, using CFL instead of normal
> light bulbs, etc.), and we cut the spending almost in four.

Apartment living maybe?

I have 1 XBox, 2 Wii's, 40" LED TV, 22" LED monitor, 16" LCD monitor, an
xbmc frontend, 2 el-cheap android tablets permanently plugged in, 1
desktop, 2 HP microservers and 3 laptops running almost 24/7. And about
10 incandescent bulbs all evening, 2 neons and umpteen CFLs.

It's a lot of power, sure.

And all quite insignificant when compared to what the swimming pool
pump uses......

All a matter of perspective I suppose :-)

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:53:53 -0500
> Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> When I moved in with my GF, her electric bill shoot up to the roof (I
>> brought my 46" LCD TV, PlayStation 3, and in total 5 computers and
>> other electronics). After a couple of months of shock of seeing the
>> electric bills, we started to do this kind of stuff
>> (suspending/hibernating our machines, using CFL instead of normal
>> light bulbs, etc.), and we cut the spending almost in four.
> Apartment living maybe?
>
> I have 1 XBox, 2 Wii's, 40" LED TV, 22" LED monitor, 16" LCD monitor, an
> xbmc frontend, 2 el-cheap android tablets permanently plugged in, 1
> desktop, 2 HP microservers and 3 laptops running almost 24/7. And about
> 10 incandescent bulbs all evening, 2 neons and umpteen CFLs.
>
> It's a lot of power, sure.
>
> And all quite insignificant when compared to what the swimming pool
> pump uses......
>
> All a matter of perspective I suppose :-)
>


My biggest expenses, refrigeration and heating/cooling.  I have a large
fridge, two deep freezers, two window A/C's for summer and a large
heater for the winter.  Compare any of those to my computer, the
computer is a rounding error.  My main rig, monitor, router, DSL modem
and printer pulls about 150 watts at most.  At most would be while it is
compiling or something.  When idle, ~100 watts.  I figured it up once
and I think it costs about $12.00 a month to run.  Heck, when I have a
$200.00 power bill, rounding error comes to mind.  Heck, taxes and fees
on the power bill is more than my puter uses.  I would much rather fuss
about the taxes than my puter.  I use my puter.  lol

I think you hit it pretty good tho Alan.  It's perspective. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 16:03:15 -0500
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> My biggest expenses, refrigeration and heating/cooling.  I have a
> large fridge, two deep freezers, two window A/C's for summer and a
> large heater for the winter.  Compare any of those to my computer, the
> computer is a rounding error.  My main rig, monitor, router, DSL modem
> and printer pulls about 150 watts at most.  At most would be while it
> is compiling or something.  When idle, ~100 watts.  I figured it up
> once and I think it costs about $12.00 a month to run.  Heck, when I
> have a $200.00 power bill, rounding error comes to mind.  Heck, taxes
> and fees on the power bill is more than my puter uses.  I would much
> rather fuss about the taxes than my puter.  I use my puter.  lol
> 
> I think you hit it pretty good tho Alan.  It's perspective. 


And my gasoline bill for two cars and two bikes is double my power
bill :-)

I account for two thirds of the price and one third of the mileage (I
have a heavy foot and an even heavier wrist). I should probably put
some attention on that :-)



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tuesday 18 September 2012 22:03:15 Dale wrote:

> My biggest expenses, refrigeration and heating/cooling.  I have a
> large fridge, two deep freezers, two window A/C's for summer and a
> large heater for the winter.  Compare any of those to my computer,
> the computer is a rounding error.  My main rig, monitor, router, DSL
> modem and printer pulls about 150 watts at most.  At most would be
> while it is compiling or something.  When idle, ~100 watts.  I
> figured it up once and I think it costs about $12.00 a month to run.
> Heck, when I have a $200.00 power bill, rounding error comes to
> mind.  Heck, taxes and fees on the power bill is more than my puter
> uses.  I would much rather fuss about the taxes than my puter.  I
> use my puter.  lol

Didn't you say once that you run a BOINC application? I forget which 
one. That would keep your CPU use at 100%. Here I run four at a time 
continuously, and according to gkrellm the CPUs sit at 60 - 65C. Just 
giving a little back to the community that I gain from.

I have an audio amplifier downstairs that consumes 96W on standby. Now 
that _is_ excessive. Keeps that corner of the room warm though.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Dale]

Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Tuesday 18 September 2012 22:03:15 Dale wrote:
>
>> My biggest expenses, refrigeration and heating/cooling.  I have a
>> large fridge, two deep freezers, two window A/C's for summer and a
>> large heater for the winter.  Compare any of those to my computer,
>> the computer is a rounding error.  My main rig, monitor, router, DSL
>> modem and printer pulls about 150 watts at most.  At most would be
>> while it is compiling or something.  When idle, ~100 watts.  I
>> figured it up once and I think it costs about $12.00 a month to run.
>> Heck, when I have a $200.00 power bill, rounding error comes to
>> mind.  Heck, taxes and fees on the power bill is more than my puter
>> uses.  I would much rather fuss about the taxes than my puter.  I
>> use my puter.  lol
> Didn't you say once that you run a BOINC application? I forget which 
> one. That would keep your CPU use at 100%. Here I run four at a time 
> continuously, and according to gkrellm the CPUs sit at 60 - 65C. Just 
> giving a little back to the community that I gain from.
>
> I have an audio amplifier downstairs that consumes 96W on standby. Now 
> that _is_ excessive. Keeps that corner of the room warm though.
>


I used to run folding but only in the winter time.  I don't mind the
heat during the winter since I have electric heat anyway.  It doesn't
matter if the heat comes from the puter or from the regular heater, it's
still heat from the power company.  I may as well give back a little
when I can.  Thing is, I have had issues with folding and have not run
it in a while.  I started the service but they had no units for me to
download and work on.  So, when spring came along, I stopped it.  I
don't think it ever had a single unit all last winter.  I chose folding
because I have health issues myself.  It may not help me but it may help
someone else.  Maybe someone else will do something to help folks like
me.  :/ 

I unhook things that I don't use often or rarely.  I have a large air
compressor that I turn off unless I plan to use it right away.  I even
have a small tank for little things, like putting air in the wheel
barrow or something like that.  I try to conserve on the things that are
not used often but don't on the things that I use a lot.  I would never
think of cutting off my fridge or deep freezers just to save on energy. 
If my food spoils, that would cost me more than I save.  If I had a
light bulb that took a minute to come on, I'd likely leave it on a lot
if I use it a lot.  Why, I don't want to have to wait for it every time
I need it.  If it costs that much to run, time for a better bulb or
something. 

96 watts for standby is excessive for sure.  What the heck is that thing
doing with all that power?  O_O 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Raffaele BELARDI]

On 09/18/2012 11:03 PM, Dale wrote:
> Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:53:53 -0500
>> Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> When I moved in with my GF, her electric bill shoot up to the roof (I
>>> brought my 46" LCD TV, PlayStation 3, and in total 5 computers and
>>> other electronics). After a couple of months of shock of seeing the
>>> electric bills, we started to do this kind of stuff
>>> (suspending/hibernating our machines, using CFL instead of normal
>>> light bulbs, etc.), and we cut the spending almost in four.
>> Apartment living maybe?
>>
>> I have 1 XBox, 2 Wii's, 40" LED TV, 22" LED monitor, 16" LCD monitor, an
>> xbmc frontend, 2 el-cheap android tablets permanently plugged in, 1
>> desktop, 2 HP microservers and 3 laptops running almost 24/7. And about
>> 10 incandescent bulbs all evening, 2 neons and umpteen CFLs.
>>
>> It's a lot of power, sure.
>>
>> And all quite insignificant when compared to what the swimming pool
>> pump uses......
>>
>> All a matter of perspective I suppose :-)
>>
> 
> 
> My biggest expenses, refrigeration and heating/cooling.  I have a large
> fridge, two deep freezers, two window A/C's for summer and a large
> heater for the winter.  Compare any of those to my computer, the
> computer is a rounding error.  My main rig, monitor, router, DSL modem
> and printer pulls about 150 watts at most.  At most would be while it is
> compiling or something.  When idle, ~100 watts.  I figured it up once
> and I think it costs about $12.00 a month to run.  Heck, when I have a
> $200.00 power bill, rounding error comes to mind.  Heck, taxes and fees
> on the power bill is more than my puter uses.  I would much rather fuss
> about the taxes than my puter.  I use my puter.  lol
> 
> I think you hit it pretty good tho Alan.  It's perspective. 
> 

It's not only about power bill costs. Oil and gas are limited resources
and we're not leaving much to the next generations. Yes, it's a matter
of perspective :-)

raf

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Dale]

Raffaele BELARDI wrote:
> On 09/18/2012 11:03 PM, Dale wrote:
>> Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>> On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:53:53 -0500
>>> Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> When I moved in with my GF, her electric bill shoot up to the roof (I
>>>> brought my 46" LCD TV, PlayStation 3, and in total 5 computers and
>>>> other electronics). After a couple of months of shock of seeing the
>>>> electric bills, we started to do this kind of stuff
>>>> (suspending/hibernating our machines, using CFL instead of normal
>>>> light bulbs, etc.), and we cut the spending almost in four.
>>> Apartment living maybe?
>>>
>>> I have 1 XBox, 2 Wii's, 40" LED TV, 22" LED monitor, 16" LCD monitor, an
>>> xbmc frontend, 2 el-cheap android tablets permanently plugged in, 1
>>> desktop, 2 HP microservers and 3 laptops running almost 24/7. And about
>>> 10 incandescent bulbs all evening, 2 neons and umpteen CFLs.
>>>
>>> It's a lot of power, sure.
>>>
>>> And all quite insignificant when compared to what the swimming pool
>>> pump uses......
>>>
>>> All a matter of perspective I suppose :-)
>>>
>>
>> My biggest expenses, refrigeration and heating/cooling.  I have a large
>> fridge, two deep freezers, two window A/C's for summer and a large
>> heater for the winter.  Compare any of those to my computer, the
>> computer is a rounding error.  My main rig, monitor, router, DSL modem
>> and printer pulls about 150 watts at most.  At most would be while it is
>> compiling or something.  When idle, ~100 watts.  I figured it up once
>> and I think it costs about $12.00 a month to run.  Heck, when I have a
>> $200.00 power bill, rounding error comes to mind.  Heck, taxes and fees
>> on the power bill is more than my puter uses.  I would much rather fuss
>> about the taxes than my puter.  I use my puter.  lol
>>
>> I think you hit it pretty good tho Alan.  It's perspective. 
>>
> It's not only about power bill costs. Oil and gas are limited resources
> and we're not leaving much to the next generations. Yes, it's a matter
> of perspective :-)
>
> raf
>

And every day I hear about them finding more oil and gas that they
didn't know was there before.  Everything is a limited resource
including sunlight.  If we are going to live thinking the end is
tomorrow, then we are not going to have a life worth living. 

Reminds me of a quote I heard a little while ago.  'We shouldn't eat to
live, we should live to eat.'  It was something like that.  I think I
got it right since I didn't exactly write it down.  They were talking
about food but still.  If you live, you have to use something. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Peter Humphrey]

On Wednesday 19 September 2012 01:23:54 Dale wrote:

> 96 watts for standby is excessive for sure.  What the heck is that
> thing doing with all that power?  O_O

In a word: wasting it!

I think it must be a class-A amplifier, or whatever the modern equivalent 
is.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Dale]

Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Wednesday 19 September 2012 01:23:54 Dale wrote:
>
>> 96 watts for standby is excessive for sure.  What the heck is that
>> thing doing with all that power?  O_O
> In a word: wasting it!
>
> I think it must be a class-A amplifier, or whatever the modern equivalent 
> is.
>


I bet it is what we used to call a class AB amp.  A class A amp pulls
the same amount of power regardless of whether there is any sound but
has very little distortion.  A class B amp pulls only what is getting
pushed to the speakers, less the drivers of course.  Class B amps have a
lot of distortion at low sound levels, that wasn't to good.  So, someone
came up with a cross between the two and got rid of the distortion but
saved power at the same time.  Most sound amps are Class AB but where in
that cross depends on the maker.  If you are really interested, here is
a linky. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_amplifier#Class_B_and_AB

I have built a few of these things.  Getting that cross point can be
fun.  To much, smoke.  To little, sounds like crap.  lol

96 watts on standby.  That doesn't sound like standing by as much as it
is ready to make noise.  lol  Is it old or new?  I can see a few watts
even maybe 20 watts or so but almost 100 watts on standby.  :/ 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 23:57:17 +0100
Peter Humphrey <peter@humphrey.ukfsn.org> wrote:

> I have an audio amplifier downstairs that consumes 96W on standby.
> Now that _is_ excessive. Keeps that corner of the room warm though.

Holy sweet mother of god. 96W???????

What you got in that thing? Thermionic tubes (aka valves)?


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Peter Humphrey]

On Wednesday 19 September 2012 10:28:44 Dale wrote:

> I bet it is what we used to call a class AB amp.

I bet you're right, now that you remind me of what I used to know.

> 96 watts on standby.  That doesn't sound like standing by as much as
> it is ready to make noise.  lol  Is it old or new?  I can see a few
> watts even maybe 20 watts or so but almost 100 watts on standby.  :/

It does make a nice little background space heater.

It's a Linn Kinos controller and Chakra power amplifier, about 7 years 
old. In fact the Kinos was so new that I was offered a pre-production 
model.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Peter Humphrey]

On Wednesday 19 September 2012 12:45:42 Alan McKinnon wrote:

> Holy sweet mother of god. 96W???????
> 
> What you got in that thing? Thermionic tubes (aka valves)?

I was surprised too, so I took care to ensure I was only measuring that 
beast, and not something else in the house as well.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Mittwoch, 19. September 2012, 01:51:49 schrieb Dale:
> Raffaele BELARDI wrote:
> > On 09/18/2012 11:03 PM, Dale wrote:
> >> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:53:53 -0500
> >>> 
> >>> Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> When I moved in with my GF, her electric bill shoot up to the roof (I
> >>>> brought my 46" LCD TV, PlayStation 3, and in total 5 computers and
> >>>> other electronics). After a couple of months of shock of seeing the
> >>>> electric bills, we started to do this kind of stuff
> >>>> (suspending/hibernating our machines, using CFL instead of normal
> >>>> light bulbs, etc.), and we cut the spending almost in four.
> >>> 
> >>> Apartment living maybe?
> >>> 
> >>> I have 1 XBox, 2 Wii's, 40" LED TV, 22" LED monitor, 16" LCD monitor, an
> >>> xbmc frontend, 2 el-cheap android tablets permanently plugged in, 1
> >>> desktop, 2 HP microservers and 3 laptops running almost 24/7. And about
> >>> 10 incandescent bulbs all evening, 2 neons and umpteen CFLs.
> >>> 
> >>> It's a lot of power, sure.
> >>> 
> >>> And all quite insignificant when compared to what the swimming pool
> >>> pump uses......
> >>> 
> >>> All a matter of perspective I suppose :-)
> >> 
> >> My biggest expenses, refrigeration and heating/cooling.  I have a large
> >> fridge, two deep freezers, two window A/C's for summer and a large
> >> heater for the winter.  Compare any of those to my computer, the
> >> computer is a rounding error.  My main rig, monitor, router, DSL modem
> >> and printer pulls about 150 watts at most.  At most would be while it is
> >> compiling or something.  When idle, ~100 watts.  I figured it up once
> >> and I think it costs about $12.00 a month to run.  Heck, when I have a
> >> $200.00 power bill, rounding error comes to mind.  Heck, taxes and fees
> >> on the power bill is more than my puter uses.  I would much rather fuss
> >> about the taxes than my puter.  I use my puter.  lol
> >> 
> >> I think you hit it pretty good tho Alan.  It's perspective.
> > 
> > It's not only about power bill costs. Oil and gas are limited resources
> > and we're not leaving much to the next generations. Yes, it's a matter
> > of perspective :-)
> > 
> > raf
> 
> And every day I hear about them finding more oil and gas that they
> didn't know was there before. 


I am sure everybody would love to hear about those findings. Especially the 
CEO's of BP, Shell etc.

Fact is, we are running out. The stuff that is found is either very hard to get 
- or not very much. Oh, and very little to start with. Consider current 
consumption.

> Everything is a limited resource
> including sunlight.  If we are going to live thinking the end is
> tomorrow, then we are not going to have a life worth living.

then turn off your computer. Have everything constantly on IS living like there 
is no tomorrow. If you want a tomorrow, start energy saving a bit.

> 
> Reminds me of a quote I heard a little while ago.  'We shouldn't eat to
> live, we should live to eat.'  It was something like that.  I think I
> got it right since I didn't exactly write it down.  They were talking
> about food but still.  If you live, you have to use something.

and because of some stupid, unrelated quote it is ok to be wasteful?

You love quotes? Here is one:

Waste not, want not.

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Dale]

Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Wednesday 19 September 2012 10:28:44 Dale wrote:
>
>> I bet it is what we used to call a class AB amp.
> I bet you're right, now that you remind me of what I used to know.

I don't know its power output but I bet it sounds good at low sound
levels.  On the class AB scale, it is more into class A than most. 

>
>> 96 watts on standby.  That doesn't sound like standing by as much as
>> it is ready to make noise.  lol  Is it old or new?  I can see a few
>> watts even maybe 20 watts or so but almost 100 watts on standby.  :/
> It does make a nice little background space heater.
>
> It's a Linn Kinos controller and Chakra power amplifier, about 7 years 
> old. In fact the Kinos was so new that I was offered a pre-production 
> model.
>

I'm going to have to google on those.  I have not heard of those.  Way
back when, I used to love the sound of a Sansui amp.  They were DC
coupled from right after the RCA input all the way to the speaker.  The
bass response was . . . awesome.  The downside, if one transistor went
out, it took them all and it was not good for the woofer either.  One
output would always be stronger than the other and the woofer would
either get a full positive power supply DC voltage or the negative
side.  Makes for a good thump tho.  Sounds like a serial/parallel chip
doesn't it?  lol 

Anyone remember the pulse width modulation amps that were tried? 

http://www.bcae1.com/ampclass.htm

I actually heard one of those in a showroom.  I can't recall the brand
but it was driving a pair of Bose 901's and it was neat.  The amps were
driving several hundred watts a channel with very little heat. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Dale]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4214 bytes --]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 19. September 2012, 01:51:49 schrieb Dale:
>> Raffaele BELARDI wrote:
>>> On 09/18/2012 11:03 PM, Dale wrote:
>>> And every day I hear about them finding more oil and gas that they
>>> didn't know was there before. 
>
> I am sure everybody would love to hear about those findings. Especially the 
> CEO's of BP, Shell etc.

Actually, the former CEO of Shell was on Fox Business not long ago
talking about some HUGE finds.  He said that we, the USA, are sitting on
some of the largest oil fields.  Here is one article I found but not
sure this is the same one the Shell guy was talking about since this
article is a few months old.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/story/2012-05-15/1A-COV-ENERGY-INDEPENDENCE/54977254/1

Quoting from that:

"It's no pipe dream. The U.S. is already the world's fastest-growing oil
and natural gas producer. Counting the output from Canada and Mexico,
North America
<http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Regions/North+America>
is "the new Middle East," Citigroup analysts declare in a recent report."

Note it said fastest growing producer.  You have to find it and be able
to get it up before you can produce it.  Yea, one day we will run out
but that's a good long ways off.  We could get hit by some asteroid or
something that just completely destroys the planet and everything on it,
including all that oil and gas that people want to save up on. 

Have you heard about the new wells being drilled in North Dakota by any
chance?  They are drilling for oil like crazy up there.  That is just
one that I recall seeing on the news a good bit recently.  There are
plenty of other finds. 

>
> Fact is, we are running out. The stuff that is found is either very hard to get 
> - or not very much. Oh, and very little to start with. Consider current 
> consumption.

Fact is, the same could be said for the Sun too.  Science already says
it will run out of fuel one day.  Solar doesn't work without sunlight. 
You can't grow corn or anything to make "green" fuel either.  There is
always going to be someone claiming we are running out of something. 
Then, we find more of it and the process continues.  Heck, we can't even
run out of the flu bug and everyone wants to run out of that. 

As for it being hard to get to, with new tools and knowledge that is
being used, they can get to places that 20 years ago we could never
dream of.  Once you get a oil pipe in the ground, that thing can produce
for years, even decades.  It's not like you have to drill a new one for
each week or month.  Heck, I have seen people talking on TV about oil
wells that were drilled way back in the 40's or 50's that still produce
lots of oil.  Once you get the pipe there, it's not hard anymore.

>
>> Everything is a limited resource
>> including sunlight.  If we are going to live thinking the end is
>> tomorrow, then we are not going to have a life worth living.
> then turn off your computer. Have everything constantly on IS living like there 
> is no tomorrow. If you want a tomorrow, start energy saving a bit.

Sorry, not convinced.  I let my computer do work for me and I find it
reasonable to pay for. 

>> Reminds me of a quote I heard a little while ago.  'We shouldn't eat to
>> live, we should live to eat.'  It was something like that.  I think I
>> got it right since I didn't exactly write it down.  They were talking
>> about food but still.  If you live, you have to use something.
> and because of some stupid, unrelated quote it is ok to be wasteful?
>
> You love quotes? Here is one:
>
> Waste not, want not.
>

I'm not wasting anything.  I just chose to let my puter work for me not
you.  I'm not one that is going to be told that I can't use something
that belongs to me in my own chosen way.  That is just NOT going to
work.  I chose to leave my system running and that is my decision and
mine alone.  You make your decision and I'll make mine.  I'm not going
to tell you to leave yours on, don't tell me to turn mine off either. 
I'll respect yours, you respect mine. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6027 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Mittwoch, 19. September 2012, 16:18:34 schrieb Dale:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > Am Mittwoch, 19. September 2012, 01:51:49 schrieb Dale:
> >> Raffaele BELARDI wrote:
> >>> On 09/18/2012 11:03 PM, Dale wrote:
> >>> And every day I hear about them finding more oil and gas that they
> >>> didn't know was there before.
> > 
> > I am sure everybody would love to hear about those findings. Especially
> > the
> > CEO's of BP, Shell etc.
> 
> Actually, the former CEO of Shell was on Fox Business not long ago
> talking about some HUGE finds.  He said that we, the USA, are sitting on
> some of the largest oil fields.  Here is one article I found but not
> sure this is the same one the Shell guy was talking about since this
> article is a few months old.
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/story/2012-05-15/1A-COV-ENER
> GY-INDEPENDENCE/54977254/1
> 
> Quoting from that:
> 
> "It's no pipe dream. The U.S. is already the world's fastest-growing oil
> and natural gas producer. Counting the output from Canada and Mexico,
> North America
> <http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Regions/North+Am
> erica> is "the new Middle East," Citigroup analysts declare in a recent
> report."
> 
> Note it said fastest growing producer.  You have to find it and be able
> to get it up before you can produce it.  Yea, one day we will run out
> but that's a good long ways off.  We could get hit by some asteroid or
> something that just completely destroys the planet and everything on it,
> including all that oil and gas that people want to save up on.
> 
> Have you heard about the new wells being drilled in North Dakota by any
> chance?  They are drilling for oil like crazy up there.  That is just
> one that I recall seeing on the news a good bit recently.  There are
> plenty of other finds.

I also heard about gas in drinking water thanks to fracking. Do oil companies 
drilling in deep water because it is cheap, save and fun? Or do they want to 
go and drill in the Arktis because it is so lovely there? Hardly. There is a 
difference between 'something is there' and 'the prize and risk are worth it'.
Do you remember that Gulf incident? BP surely hopes not. You should get used 
to it.

and here:
http://oilsandstruth.org/world-running-out-oil-says-exceo


> 
> > Fact is, we are running out. The stuff that is found is either very hard
> > to get - or not very much. Oh, and very little to start with. Consider
> > current consumption.
> 
> Fact is, the same could be said for the Sun too.  Science already says
> it will run out of fuel one day.

And now you went full stupid. There is a difference between 'a couple of 
decades' and '4 billion years'. But thanks for posting. That said a lot about 
you. I don't even care about the rest of your posting. This is plonk worthy 
stupid. So I stop right there, I don't want to get any of that.

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Dale]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 19. September 2012, 16:18:34 schrieb Dale:
>> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>> Am Mittwoch, 19. September 2012, 01:51:49 schrieb Dale:
>>>> Raffaele BELARDI wrote:
>>>>> On 09/18/2012 11:03 PM, Dale wrote:
>>>>> And every day I hear about them finding more oil and gas that they
>>>>> didn't know was there before.
>>> I am sure everybody would love to hear about those findings. Especially
>>> the
>>> CEO's of BP, Shell etc.
>> Actually, the former CEO of Shell was on Fox Business not long ago
>> talking about some HUGE finds.  He said that we, the USA, are sitting on
>> some of the largest oil fields.  Here is one article I found but not
>> sure this is the same one the Shell guy was talking about since this
>> article is a few months old.
>>
>> http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/story/2012-05-15/1A-COV-ENER
>> GY-INDEPENDENCE/54977254/1
>>
>> Quoting from that:
>>
>> "It's no pipe dream. The U.S. is already the world's fastest-growing oil
>> and natural gas producer. Counting the output from Canada and Mexico,
>> North America
>> <http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Regions/North+Am
>> erica> is "the new Middle East," Citigroup analysts declare in a recent
>> report."
>>
>> Note it said fastest growing producer.  You have to find it and be able
>> to get it up before you can produce it.  Yea, one day we will run out
>> but that's a good long ways off.  We could get hit by some asteroid or
>> something that just completely destroys the planet and everything on it,
>> including all that oil and gas that people want to save up on.
>>
>> Have you heard about the new wells being drilled in North Dakota by any
>> chance?  They are drilling for oil like crazy up there.  That is just
>> one that I recall seeing on the news a good bit recently.  There are
>> plenty of other finds.
> I also heard about gas in drinking water thanks to fracking. Do oil companies 
> drilling in deep water because it is cheap, save and fun? Or do they want to 
> go and drill in the Arktis because it is so lovely there? Hardly. There is a 
> difference between 'something is there' and 'the prize and risk are worth it'.
> Do you remember that Gulf incident? BP surely hopes not. You should get used 
> to it.
>
> and here:
> http://oilsandstruth.org/world-running-out-oil-says-exceo
>

I also remember the people that died trying to go to the moon but we did
it anyway.  I have heard a lot of people talking about fracking and all
sort of myths about it.  I have not seen proof that is in drinking
water.  Even so, I have a well that we drove here and we drank off it
for years.  It has a HUGE iron count and turns white clothes orange. 
There is always something in water.  It's just what water does.  That is
why it gets filtered before it is used for drinking.  By the way,
fracking has been around for something like 60 years.  Not all the oil
that has been found recently requires fracking either.  So, don't just
point to fracking and then claim that all oil is bad.

The website you linked to is against oil from my google search.  It
would be like quoting Al Gore for global warming, climate change or
whatever they call it this week. 

>>> Fact is, we are running out. The stuff that is found is either very hard
>>> to get - or not very much. Oh, and very little to start with. Consider
>>> current consumption.
>> Fact is, the same could be said for the Sun too.  Science already says
>> it will run out of fuel one day.
> And now you went full stupid. There is a difference between 'a couple of 
> decades' and '4 billion years'. But thanks for posting. That said a lot about 
> you. I don't even care about the rest of your posting. This is plonk worthy 
> stupid. So I stop right there, I don't want to get any of that.
>

Care to explain away that we could get hit my some asteroid too? 
Yellowstone could erupt again and kill us all.  Better get your "I'm
scared of everything" hat on. 

Who knows it is a couple decades?  That was the thinking years ago
BEFORE finding all the new reserves of gas and oil. 

Careful calling someone stupid.  It could come back and name calling on
the list is not a good thing.  You should know better.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Michael Mol]

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>> Am Mittwoch, 19. September 2012, 16:18:34 schrieb Dale:
>>> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>>> Am Mittwoch, 19. September 2012, 01:51:49 schrieb Dale:
>>>>> Raffaele BELARDI wrote:
>>>>>> On 09/18/2012 11:03 PM, Dale wrote:
>>>>>> And every day I hear about them finding more oil and gas that they
>>>>>> didn't know was there before.
>>>> I am sure everybody would love to hear about those findings. Especially
>>>> the
>>>> CEO's of BP, Shell etc.
>>> Actually, the former CEO of Shell was on Fox Business not long ago
>>> talking about some HUGE finds.  He said that we, the USA, are sitting on
>>> some of the largest oil fields.  Here is one article I found but not
>>> sure this is the same one the Shell guy was talking about since this
>>> article is a few months old.
>>>
>>> http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/story/2012-05-15/1A-COV-ENER
>>> GY-INDEPENDENCE/54977254/1
>>>
>>> Quoting from that:
>>>
>>> "It's no pipe dream. The U.S. is already the world's fastest-growing oil
>>> and natural gas producer. Counting the output from Canada and Mexico,
>>> North America
>>> <http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Regions/North+Am
>>> erica> is "the new Middle East," Citigroup analysts declare in a recent
>>> report."
>>>
>>> Note it said fastest growing producer.  You have to find it and be able
>>> to get it up before you can produce it.  Yea, one day we will run out
>>> but that's a good long ways off.  We could get hit by some asteroid or
>>> something that just completely destroys the planet and everything on it,
>>> including all that oil and gas that people want to save up on.
>>>
>>> Have you heard about the new wells being drilled in North Dakota by any
>>> chance?  They are drilling for oil like crazy up there.  That is just
>>> one that I recall seeing on the news a good bit recently.  There are
>>> plenty of other finds.
>> I also heard about gas in drinking water thanks to fracking. Do oil companies
>> drilling in deep water because it is cheap, save and fun? Or do they want to
>> go and drill in the Arktis because it is so lovely there? Hardly. There is a
>> difference between 'something is there' and 'the prize and risk are worth it'.
>> Do you remember that Gulf incident? BP surely hopes not. You should get used
>> to it.
>>
>> and here:
>> http://oilsandstruth.org/world-running-out-oil-says-exceo
>>
>
> I also remember the people that died trying to go to the moon but we did
> it anyway.  I have heard a lot of people talking about fracking and all
> sort of myths about it.  I have not seen proof that is in drinking
> water.  Even so, I have a well that we drove here and we drank off it
> for years.  It has a HUGE iron count and turns white clothes orange.
> There is always something in water.  It's just what water does.  That is
> why it gets filtered before it is used for drinking.  By the way,
> fracking has been around for something like 60 years.  Not all the oil
> that has been found recently requires fracking either.  So, don't just
> point to fracking and then claim that all oil is bad.
>
> The website you linked to is against oil from my google search.  It
> would be like quoting Al Gore for global warming, climate change or
> whatever they call it this week.
>
>>>> Fact is, we are running out. The stuff that is found is either very hard
>>>> to get - or not very much. Oh, and very little to start with. Consider
>>>> current consumption.
>>> Fact is, the same could be said for the Sun too.  Science already says
>>> it will run out of fuel one day.
>> And now you went full stupid. There is a difference between 'a couple of
>> decades' and '4 billion years'. But thanks for posting. That said a lot about
>> you. I don't even care about the rest of your posting. This is plonk worthy
>> stupid. So I stop right there, I don't want to get any of that.
>>
>
> Care to explain away that we could get hit my some asteroid too?
> Yellowstone could erupt again and kill us all.  Better get your "I'm
> scared of everything" hat on.
>
> Who knows it is a couple decades?  That was the thinking years ago
> BEFORE finding all the new reserves of gas and oil.
>
> Careful calling someone stupid.  It could come back and name calling on
> the list is not a good thing.  You should know better.


Guys, this fell into politics, one of those categories of things you
don't discuss in polite company. Not that I'm accusing anyone of being
polite, it's just that these aren't issues that can generally be
resolved, and it's certainly not something that comes anywhere close
to being on-topic here.

Now, could we go back to discussing software, packages, electronics
and amplifiers? I found that portion of the thread utterly
fascinating...

-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Alan McKinnon]

On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:25:49 -0400
Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:

> Guys, this fell into politics, one of those categories of things you
> don't discuss in polite company. Not that I'm accusing anyone of being
> polite, 

Phew, glad to hear that last bit. You had me worried for a second, what
with my reputation to uphold and all


> Now, could we go back to discussing software, packages, electronics
> and amplifiers? I found that portion of the thread utterly
> fascinating...

That's a good idea. Would you like to hear about Hitachi Class H amps?

I'm forever fascinated that I seem to be the only person that ever
heard of them. Most techies know A, AB and B. Some know Class C but I
get blank looks everywhere I mention Class H...

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Michael Mol]

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:25:49 -0400
> Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Guys, this fell into politics, one of those categories of things you
>> don't discuss in polite company. Not that I'm accusing anyone of being
>> polite,
>
> Phew, glad to hear that last bit. You had me worried for a second, what
> with my reputation to uphold and all
>
>
>> Now, could we go back to discussing software, packages, electronics
>> and amplifiers? I found that portion of the thread utterly
>> fascinating...
>
> That's a good idea. Would you like to hear about Hitachi Class H amps?
>
> I'm forever fascinated that I seem to be the only person that ever
> heard of them. Most techies know A, AB and B. Some know Class C but I
> get blank looks everywhere I mention Class H...

I would indeed. And a primer (or reasonable reference for someone with
just a technician's amateur radio license) on class C. :)

-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Dale]

Michael Mol wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>> Am Mittwoch, 19. September 2012, 16:18:34 schrieb Dale:
>>>> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>>>> Am Mittwoch, 19. September 2012, 01:51:49 schrieb Dale:
>>>>>> Raffaele BELARDI wrote:
>>>>>>> On 09/18/2012 11:03 PM, Dale wrote:
>>>>>>> And every day I hear about them finding more oil and gas that they
>>>>>>> didn't know was there before.
>>>>> I am sure everybody would love to hear about those findings. Especially
>>>>> the
>>>>> CEO's of BP, Shell etc.
>>>> Actually, the former CEO of Shell was on Fox Business not long ago
>>>> talking about some HUGE finds.  He said that we, the USA, are sitting on
>>>> some of the largest oil fields.  Here is one article I found but not
>>>> sure this is the same one the Shell guy was talking about since this
>>>> article is a few months old.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/story/2012-05-15/1A-COV-ENER
>>>> GY-INDEPENDENCE/54977254/1
>>>>
>>>> Quoting from that:
>>>>
>>>> "It's no pipe dream. The U.S. is already the world's fastest-growing oil
>>>> and natural gas producer. Counting the output from Canada and Mexico,
>>>> North America
>>>> <http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Regions/North+Am
>>>> erica> is "the new Middle East," Citigroup analysts declare in a recent
>>>> report."
>>>>
>>>> Note it said fastest growing producer.  You have to find it and be able
>>>> to get it up before you can produce it.  Yea, one day we will run out
>>>> but that's a good long ways off.  We could get hit by some asteroid or
>>>> something that just completely destroys the planet and everything on it,
>>>> including all that oil and gas that people want to save up on.
>>>>
>>>> Have you heard about the new wells being drilled in North Dakota by any
>>>> chance?  They are drilling for oil like crazy up there.  That is just
>>>> one that I recall seeing on the news a good bit recently.  There are
>>>> plenty of other finds.
>>> I also heard about gas in drinking water thanks to fracking. Do oil companies
>>> drilling in deep water because it is cheap, save and fun? Or do they want to
>>> go and drill in the Arktis because it is so lovely there? Hardly. There is a
>>> difference between 'something is there' and 'the prize and risk are worth it'.
>>> Do you remember that Gulf incident? BP surely hopes not. You should get used
>>> to it.
>>>
>>> and here:
>>> http://oilsandstruth.org/world-running-out-oil-says-exceo
>>>
>> I also remember the people that died trying to go to the moon but we did
>> it anyway.  I have heard a lot of people talking about fracking and all
>> sort of myths about it.  I have not seen proof that is in drinking
>> water.  Even so, I have a well that we drove here and we drank off it
>> for years.  It has a HUGE iron count and turns white clothes orange.
>> There is always something in water.  It's just what water does.  That is
>> why it gets filtered before it is used for drinking.  By the way,
>> fracking has been around for something like 60 years.  Not all the oil
>> that has been found recently requires fracking either.  So, don't just
>> point to fracking and then claim that all oil is bad.
>>
>> The website you linked to is against oil from my google search.  It
>> would be like quoting Al Gore for global warming, climate change or
>> whatever they call it this week.
>>
>>>>> Fact is, we are running out. The stuff that is found is either very hard
>>>>> to get - or not very much. Oh, and very little to start with. Consider
>>>>> current consumption.
>>>> Fact is, the same could be said for the Sun too.  Science already says
>>>> it will run out of fuel one day.
>>> And now you went full stupid. There is a difference between 'a couple of
>>> decades' and '4 billion years'. But thanks for posting. That said a lot about
>>> you. I don't even care about the rest of your posting. This is plonk worthy
>>> stupid. So I stop right there, I don't want to get any of that.
>>>
>> Care to explain away that we could get hit my some asteroid too?
>> Yellowstone could erupt again and kill us all.  Better get your "I'm
>> scared of everything" hat on.
>>
>> Who knows it is a couple decades?  That was the thinking years ago
>> BEFORE finding all the new reserves of gas and oil.
>>
>> Careful calling someone stupid.  It could come back and name calling on
>> the list is not a good thing.  You should know better.
>
> Guys, this fell into politics, one of those categories of things you
> don't discuss in polite company. Not that I'm accusing anyone of being
> polite, it's just that these aren't issues that can generally be
> resolved, and it's certainly not something that comes anywhere close
> to being on-topic here.
>
> Now, could we go back to discussing software, packages, electronics
> and amplifiers? I found that portion of the thread utterly
> fascinating...
>

Kewl.  I have built amps from scratch but not sure I would right now.  I
haven't touched a transistor in a good long while.  Heck, I had to
search for the class of amps to make sure I was speaking with some
degree of certainty.  I have built a couple amps that were tube types. 
I can certainly tell a difference between tube and transistors but can't
describe it.  I just don't like all that heat, high voltages and such. 
Plus, tubes ain't very cheap and have shorter lives, especially the
outputs.

Still wonder why those PWM amps never made it tho.  They sound great and
waste about nothing. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Alan McKinnon]

On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:52:17 -0400
Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Alan McKinnon
> <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:25:49 -0400
> > Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Guys, this fell into politics, one of those categories of things
> >> you don't discuss in polite company. Not that I'm accusing anyone
> >> of being polite,
> >
> > Phew, glad to hear that last bit. You had me worried for a second,
> > what with my reputation to uphold and all
> >
> >
> >> Now, could we go back to discussing software, packages, electronics
> >> and amplifiers? I found that portion of the thread utterly
> >> fascinating...
> >
> > That's a good idea. Would you like to hear about Hitachi Class H
> > amps?
> >
> > I'm forever fascinated that I seem to be the only person that ever
> > heard of them. Most techies know A, AB and B. Some know Class C but
> > I get blank looks everywhere I mention Class H...
> 
> I would indeed. And a primer (or reasonable reference for someone with
> just a technician's amateur radio license) on class C. :)
> 

IIRC this was back in the late 70s or early 80s. Someone at Hitachi
figured that amps (like code) spent 90% of their time doing 10% of the
effort. If you had a 100W amp, it wasn't trying to drive 100W into the
speakers all the time - only when the input signal was large enough.

And yet, the power source for the output stages was permanently running
at 70V or so (that's what it takes to get 100W into speaker coils back
then). A transistor isn't a perfect isolator when biased off, so some
of that voltage gets dropped somewhere (across the output transistors)
and the result is a lot of wastage.

wikipedia has a quite good summary of the usual classes - A, B, AB, C &
D:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_amplifier#Class_C

But, Class H. A Hitachi engineer had a brilliant idea:

Run the damn thing class A all the time (for the audio quality) but at
around 24V. Heat generated is minimal. The power supply had a fancy
voltage tripler circuit and when the input warranted it, the supply
voltage would (very rapidly) switch over to the full 70V and the amp
would deliver the full rated output. There was fancy circuitry in place
to avoid distortion at the switch on point of course, but that is a bit
OT.

An interesting take on the problem. Mechanical engineers do this all
the time with engines - turbos only kick in when you need the power
boost they provide, the rest of the time the motor is in regular mode.

I've promised myself for years since my apprentice days that I would
one day built a valve amp from a kit. There's something about the warm
glow from the tubes on a winter night that is appealing :-) I'd better
hurry up and get on with it, I read that decent quality valves are
becoming scarce and are generally only available from (what used to be)
the USSR.




-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Samuel Ports]

Modern version
http://www.babeland.com/hitachi-magic-wand/d/2487

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 21, 2012, at 5:18 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:52:17 -0400
> Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Alan McKinnon
>> <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:25:49 -0400
>>> Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Guys, this fell into politics, one of those categories of things
>>>> you don't discuss in polite company. Not that I'm accusing anyone
>>>> of being polite,
>>>
>>> Phew, glad to hear that last bit. You had me worried for a second,
>>> what with my reputation to uphold and all
>>>
>>>
>>>> Now, could we go back to discussing software, packages, electronics
>>>> and amplifiers? I found that portion of the thread utterly
>>>> fascinating...
>>>
>>> That's a good idea. Would you like to hear about Hitachi Class H
>>> amps?
>>>
>>> I'm forever fascinated that I seem to be the only person that ever
>>> heard of them. Most techies know A, AB and B. Some know Class C but
>>> I get blank looks everywhere I mention Class H...
>>
>> I would indeed. And a primer (or reasonable reference for someone with
>> just a technician's amateur radio license) on class C. :)
>>
>
> IIRC this was back in the late 70s or early 80s. Someone at Hitachi
> figured that amps (like code) spent 90% of their time doing 10% of the
> effort. If you had a 100W amp, it wasn't trying to drive 100W into the
> speakers all the time - only when the input signal was large enough.
>
> And yet, the power source for the output stages was permanently running
> at 70V or so (that's what it takes to get 100W into speaker coils back
> then). A transistor isn't a perfect isolator when biased off, so some
> of that voltage gets dropped somewhere (across the output transistors)
> and the result is a lot of wastage.
>
> wikipedia has a quite good summary of the usual classes - A, B, AB, C &
> D:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_amplifier#Class_C
>
> But, Class H. A Hitachi engineer had a brilliant idea:
>
> Run the damn thing class A all the time (for the audio quality) but at
> around 24V. Heat generated is minimal. The power supply had a fancy
> voltage tripler circuit and when the input warranted it, the supply
> voltage would (very rapidly) switch over to the full 70V and the amp
> would deliver the full rated output. There was fancy circuitry in place
> to avoid distortion at the switch on point of course, but that is a bit
> OT.
>
> An interesting take on the problem. Mechanical engineers do this all
> the time with engines - turbos only kick in when you need the power
> boost they provide, the rest of the time the motor is in regular mode.
>
> I've promised myself for years since my apprentice days that I would
> one day built a valve amp from a kit. There's something about the warm
> glow from the tubes on a winter night that is appealing :-) I'd better
> hurry up and get on with it, I read that decent quality valves are
> becoming scarce and are generally only available from (what used to be)
> the USSR.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Alan McKinnon
> alan.mckinnon@gmail.com
>
>

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> I've promised myself for years since my apprentice days that I would
> one day built a valve amp from a kit. There's something about the warm
> glow from the tubes on a winter night that is appealing :-) I'd better
> hurry up and get on with it, I read that decent quality valves are
> becoming scarce and are generally only available from (what used to
> be) the USSR. 

Found a few sites for ya:

http://tctubes.com/about-us.aspx

http://electrontubestore.com/index.php?main_page=contact_us

http://www.tubesandmore.com/customer_service/about_us

I found that by typing 6gh8a in google.  That's a old tube that I used
to have to replace pretty regular.  I think it was used in the audio
section and would usually work fine when cold but get a bit weird when
it gets good and hot.  They got replaced a LOT back then.  Anyway, two
are in the USA but one is in Canada. 

Maybe you got more time than you think.  ;-)  I do think the old tubes
have better sound tho.  I can't explain it but they just sound
different.  I think that is why some places still have tubes.  Some
people just like them more.  I think they make great heaters.  lol 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Adam Carter]

> I'd better
> hurry up and get on with it, I read that decent quality valves are
> becoming scarce and are generally only available from (what used to be)
> the USSR.

There's a huge market for valves for guitar amps. I think supply is safe enough.

Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel options and udisk

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 17:19:57 -0500
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > I've promised myself for years since my apprentice days that I would
> > one day built a valve amp from a kit. There's something about the
> > warm glow from the tubes on a winter night that is appealing :-)
> > I'd better hurry up and get on with it, I read that decent quality
> > valves are becoming scarce and are generally only available from
> > (what used to be) the USSR. 
> 
> Found a few sites for ya:
> 
> http://tctubes.com/about-us.aspx
> 
> http://electrontubestore.com/index.php?main_page=contact_us
> 
> http://www.tubesandmore.com/customer_service/about_us
> 
> I found that by typing 6gh8a in google.  That's a old tube that I used
> to have to replace pretty regular.  I think it was used in the audio
> section and would usually work fine when cold but get a bit weird when
> it gets good and hot.  They got replaced a LOT back then.  Anyway, two
> are in the USA but one is in Canada.

Cool finds, thanks!

Maybe I should go-ahead and build an amp and be done with it. No more
mucking about putting it off :-) 

> Maybe you got more time than you think.  ;-)  I do think the old tubes
> have better sound tho.  I can't explain it but they just sound
> different.  

You're not imagining things. Valves do sound better and you can measure
it and see why.

Valves and transistors both distort sound to some degree as all
electronic systems will. The difference is in how the distortion
happens.

Semiconductors are prone to even-harmonic distortion, so if you have a
100Hz sine wave, it will produce distortion at 100hz, 400Hz, 1600Hz and
so on. Valves produce odd-harmonic distortion, at 200Hz, 800Hz and so
on.

If you are now thinking "Fourier" and wondering if transistors try to
make square waves, you are bang on the money because that is exactly
what is happening. To the human ear, a square wave sounds like gross
horrendous distortion, even at very small percentages. At it's worst,
this is "clipping" and happens because a transistor will happily pass
current until the voltage drop over it hits the supply voltage and it
clips. Bingo, one square(ish) wave and horrible sound.

Valves deal with this in a more "analog" fashion, as the voltage drop
nears the supply voltage it passes less and less current, rounding the
waveform and never actually clipping it. Which sounds far more pleasant
to the human ear.

Modern circuitry tries to avoid the transistor problem using "soft
clipping" and other tricks - basically trying to make the transistor
behave in the same way a valve oes. This does make a huge difference,
but you can never completely eliminate the device's inherent
characteristics, it is what it is and this leopard doesn't change it's
spots.



> I think that is why some places still have tubes.  Some
> people just like them more.  I think they make great heaters.  lol 
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-) 
> 



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com