[gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Chris Stankevitz]

Gentoo is the best distribution I have used (I haven't used too many:
ubuntu, fedora, gentoo).  I love the USE flags.  I love watching (and
questioning) what is going to be installed.  I love emerge.
Supposedly gentoo lacks being able to have a system "just work"
without thinking about anything.  But in my experience on linux, this
simply isn't the case anywhere.  With ubuntu, for example, I had
trouble with sound and ethernet cards that I could never figure out...
and the kind of answers I get on their forums drive me insane ("my
uncle once said that his cousin typed this magical command and it
worked fine for a little while so maybe try that").

And what's the deal with these "major release versions" of the other
distros?  Why do that?

Thank you to all the people who contribute to it... and to those who
are giving great advice/solutions on this list!

Chris

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Dale]

Chris Stankevitz wrote:
> Gentoo is the best distribution I have used (I haven't used too many:
> ubuntu, fedora, gentoo).  I love the USE flags.  I love watching (and
> questioning) what is going to be installed.  I love emerge.
> Supposedly gentoo lacks being able to have a system "just work"
> without thinking about anything.  But in my experience on linux, this
> simply isn't the case anywhere.  With ubuntu, for example, I had
> trouble with sound and ethernet cards that I could never figure out...
> and the kind of answers I get on their forums drive me insane ("my
> uncle once said that his cousin typed this magical command and it
> worked fine for a little while so maybe try that").
>
> And what's the deal with these "major release versions" of the other
> distros?  Why do that?
>
> Thank you to all the people who contribute to it... and to those who
> are giving great advice/solutions on this list!
>
> Chris
>
>


You should turn off the quiet build "feature" and watch all the "stuff"
scroll by.  Maybe just do that when you got some spare time.  Brownie
points if you can read and understand it all too.  lol

My brother has recently converted to Linux, with a LOT of my help.  I
put Kubuntu on his rig.  When I need help, I google then I ask here.  So
far, the folks here seem to know more about *ubuntu than the people that
actually have been using it for a while.  Sort of funny in a way.  Than
again, so sad.  :/ 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Alan McKinnon]

On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 14:46:14 -0700
Chris Stankevitz <chrisstankevitz@gmail.com> wrote:

> Gentoo is the best distribution I have used (I haven't used too many:
> ubuntu, fedora, gentoo).  I love the USE flags.  I love watching (and
> questioning) what is going to be installed.  I love emerge.
> Supposedly gentoo lacks being able to have a system "just work"
> without thinking about anything.  But in my experience on linux, this
> simply isn't the case anywhere.  With ubuntu, for example, I had
> trouble with sound and ethernet cards that I could never figure out...
> and the kind of answers I get on their forums drive me insane ("my
> uncle once said that his cousin typed this magical command and it
> worked fine for a little while so maybe try that").
> 
> And what's the deal with these "major release versions" of the other
> distros?  Why do that?

They are binary distros so they have no choice. For the duration of
that version's life, all the packages shipped must all work together
and that is only possible if the ABI does not change.

The major version number is a way of recording what the hell you got:
look up the distro version somewhere and see what it says.

For the release to use new packages with their new magic features,
every other package using those packages must also be recompiled and
re-released to. You know about the current level of cluelessness on the
forums, imagine what would happen if there were 6 versions of every
package for every release.


I don't mean "foo-1.2.3-ubuntu-1" vs "foo-1.2.3-ubuntu-2" (which will
always be forward and backwards compatible), I mean "foo-1.2.3" vs
"foo-2.3.4" and a few bar packages that don't use foo anymore but do
use baz.

It would be a nightmare. The only sane way to deal with this is to peg
the packages at version levels and stick with it. Windows does this,
Mac OS does it, Solaris does it. And they do it because that's the only
thing that could work.

Gentoo has no need of major version numbers. It is source-based,
so it can do rolling releases. For any new package foo that changes
it's ABI, portage will find all packages bar that now need to be
updated, and then update them. This could never possibly work for
Ubuntu. Nothing else could possibly work for Gentoo.

Often when trying to understand why Gentoo works a certain way, it
helps to remember who exactly is the distro maintainer. Ubuntu has
maintainers that build packages for their Ubuntu versions and put the
binaries in a repo somewhere. 

Gentoo also has such people: You


> 
> Thank you to all the people who contribute to it... and to those who
> are giving great advice/solutions on this list!
> 
> Chris
> 



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[G.Wolfe Woodbury]

On 09/10/2012 05:46 PM, Chris Stankevitz wrote:
> Gentoo is the best distribution I have used (I haven't used too many:
> ubuntu, fedora, gentoo).  I love the USE flags.  I love watching (and
> questioning) what is going to be installed.  I love emerge.
> Supposedly gentoo lacks being able to have a system "just work"
> without thinking about anything.  But in my experience on linux, this
> simply isn't the case anywhere.  With ubuntu, for example, I had
> trouble with sound and ethernet cards that I could never figure out...
> and the kind of answers I get on their forums drive me insane ("my
> uncle once said that his cousin typed this magical command and it
> worked fine for a little while so maybe try that").
>
> And what's the deal with these "major release versions" of the other
> distros?  Why do that?
Most of the binary based distributions have tied their stars to the
major desktop
environments. [For example Fedora is heavily tied to RedHat and the GNOME
desktop, and many RedHat employees are major GNOME developers.]

Fedora/GNOME is very nice for modern hardware and mostly "just works"
because
a lot of effort goes into testing each major release.  But the GNOME
philosophy has
become one of hiding the inner workings of GNU/Linux in much the same
manner that
Microsoft hides all the innards of Windows.  But Fedora is also the most
'bleeding" edge
distribution, getting the latest and greatest every six monthe or so.

Debian and Ubuntu are also dedicated to producing "desktop ready"
distributions
that hide everything under the hood.  The try to provide a more stable
environment as well.

All the binary distributions will have trouble getting the hardware
environment correct.
They just can't move fast enough to deal with the latest and greatest,
or  even the tried
and true older stuff.  Their Linux kernels have to try to please
everybody and deal in
a reasonable manner with what comes from the computer system makers. 
This requires
them to put everything (and the kitchen sink!) in the mix, and hope it
holds together.
Gentoo, encouraging the building of a customized kernel for the hardware
being used,
gets the advantages of clean and lean and best speed available.

Gentoo has become my favorite distribution since it is the most
customizeable and doesn't
force the users to accept too much crap along with the most useable
bits. The documentation
provides relatively clear explanations of "why" in addition to the
"how"  The Gentoo Handbook
is one of the most accessible install documents around.

I've been using UNIX since 1977, and Linux/GNU from its invention. 
Gentoo provies the
right balance between having the good stuff easily installable, and
being able to configure
exactly what is wanted.

Have fun with Gentoo.

-- 
G.Wolfe Woodbury
aka redwolfe (fedora proventester :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Paul Hartman]

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 4:46 PM, Chris Stankevitz
<chrisstankevitz@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gentoo is the best distribution I have used (I haven't used too many:
> ubuntu, fedora, gentoo).  I love the USE flags.  I love watching (and
> questioning) what is going to be installed.  I love emerge.
> Supposedly gentoo lacks being able to have a system "just work"
> without thinking about anything.  But in my experience on linux, this
> simply isn't the case anywhere.  With ubuntu, for example, I had
> trouble with sound and ethernet cards that I could never figure out...
> and the kind of answers I get on their forums drive me insane ("my
> uncle once said that his cousin typed this magical command and it
> worked fine for a little while so maybe try that").

That's how I felt, too, in 2003 or 2004 when I first installed Gentoo,
and I've been using it ever since and still feel the same way. I've
tried other distros but Gentoo feels the most natural to me. I'm okay
with more responsibility in exchange for more control over my system.

Yeah, sometimes it makes you think about what you're doing more than
some other distros, but I don't see that as a bad thing. Thinking is
fun.

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Mark Knecht]

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Chris Stankevitz
<chrisstankevitz@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gentoo is the best distribution I have used (I haven't used too many:
> ubuntu, fedora, gentoo).  I love the USE flags.  I love watching (and
> questioning) what is going to be installed.  I love emerge.
> Supposedly gentoo lacks being able to have a system "just work"
> without thinking about anything.  But in my experience on linux, this
> simply isn't the case anywhere.  With ubuntu, for example, I had
> trouble with sound and ethernet cards that I could never figure out...
> and the kind of answers I get on their forums drive me insane ("my
> uncle once said that his cousin typed this magical command and it
> worked fine for a little while so maybe try that").
>
> And what's the deal with these "major release versions" of the other
> distros?  Why do that?
>
> Thank you to all the people who contribute to it... and to those who
> are giving great advice/solutions on this list!
>
> Chris
>

Like Paul and many others I've never looked back. I'm no power user,
and contrary to a lot of the press out there I don't think you need to
be to use this distro. Just be careful and red a bit. I've been
helping a long time trading partner friend of mine with his move to
Gentoo over the last year. He's hardly using native Windows anymore.
He just runs a bunch of VMs like I do.

Don't go doing anything crazy with your use flags. Yeah, they are
cool, but my experience, especially in the beginning, is that less is
more. I only have about 10 in make.conf on any of the 10 or so
machines we have in our family now. I add a few in package.use when
I'm forced to. Other than that KISS.

Good luck & welcome to the family.

Cheers,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Chris Stankevitz]

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> For the release to use new packages with their new magic features,
> every other package using those packages must also be recompiled

I see now.

> The only sane way to deal with this is to peg
> the packages at version levels and stick with it.

I see

> that's the only
> thing that could work.

I completely get it now.  Great explanation, thank you!  I'm a little
embarrassed though that I didn't consider there was a technical reason
for the major versions.  I just assumed it was done for marketing
reasons.

Chris

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Pandu Poluan]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1657 bytes --]

On Sep 11, 2012 6:40 AM, "Paul Hartman" <paul.hartman+gentoo@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 4:46 PM, Chris Stankevitz
> <chrisstankevitz@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Gentoo is the best distribution I have used (I haven't used too many:
> > ubuntu, fedora, gentoo).  I love the USE flags.  I love watching (and
> > questioning) what is going to be installed.  I love emerge.
> > Supposedly gentoo lacks being able to have a system "just work"
> > without thinking about anything.  But in my experience on linux, this
> > simply isn't the case anywhere.  With ubuntu, for example, I had
> > trouble with sound and ethernet cards that I could never figure out...
> > and the kind of answers I get on their forums drive me insane ("my
> > uncle once said that his cousin typed this magical command and it
> > worked fine for a little while so maybe try that").
>
> That's how I felt, too, in 2003 or 2004 when I first installed Gentoo,
> and I've been using it ever since and still feel the same way. I've
> tried other distros but Gentoo feels the most natural to me. I'm okay
> with more responsibility in exchange for more control over my system.
>
> Yeah, sometimes it makes you think about what you're doing more than
> some other distros, but I don't see that as a bad thing. Thinking is
> fun.
>

This thread reminds me of a page I've posted here quite some times ago:

http://mark.orbum.net/2011/11/15/the-pan-pipes-of-gentoo-linux-always-at-the-source/

I can't put it better than that guy. Although he finally settled for
a-linux-distro-named-after-a-headwear, he still longs to be with The Source.

"The Source, Luke! Use The Source!"

Rgds,

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2223 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Cinder]

>http://mark.orbum.net/2011/11/15/the-pan-pipes-of-gentoo-linux-always-at-the-source/
Woow! ... that's ... it's ... I ... I'm weeping ... freely! I'm not alone.

_____________________________________________________________
Get your FREE, LinuxWaves.com Email Now! --> http://www.LinuxWaves.com 
Join Linux Discussions! --> http://Community.LinuxWaves.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Philip Webb]

120910 Paul Hartman wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 4:46 PM, Chris Stankevitz
>> Gentoo is the best distribution I have used ...
>> I love watching & questioning what is going to be installed.
>> Supposedly Gentoo lacks being able to "just work" without thinking,
>> but in my experience this simply isn't the case anywhere.
>> With Ubuntu I had trouble with sound and ethernet cards
>> that I could never figure out
>> and the kind of answers I get on their forums drive me insane.

When I wanted to install Linux on my new netbook 2008,
I quickly found that the simplest way to get everything to work
was to install Gentoo, using my notes from previous desktop installs.
In Gentoo, problems are almost always just  1  layer deep,
tho' the Gentoo Forum also tends to be much more noise than signal.

> That's how I felt, too, in 2003 or 2004 when I first installed Gentoo
> and I've been using it ever since and still feel the same way.
> I'm okay with more responsibility in exchange for more control.
> Sometimes it makes you think about what you're doing more
> than some other distros, but thinking is fun.

Exactly my own experience, also since 2003,
when Mandrake was slow to bring out its new version,
other distros didn't install properly & I finally tried Gentoo:
suddenly I found myself looking at a working system on my screen !
-- that machine still runs well enough as a stand-by
without any re-installation & I can update 'world' after  > 1 year .

My picture is that using M$ is like staying in a mediocre over-priced hotel,
where there are many locked doors marked 'Private: staff only!',
it's not safe to eat in the restaurant & Security gets angry sometimes.
Binary Linux distros are like living in a fairly good apartment building,
but you're still dependent on company staff + policies.
Gentoo is like owning your own house.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

[gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 11/09/12 01:12, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 14:46:14 -0700
> Chris Stankevitz <chrisstankevitz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Gentoo is the best distribution I have used (I haven't used too many:
>> ubuntu, fedora, gentoo).  I love the USE flags.  I love watching (and
>> questioning) what is going to be installed.  I love emerge.
>> Supposedly gentoo lacks being able to have a system "just work"
>> without thinking about anything.  But in my experience on linux, this
>> simply isn't the case anywhere.  With ubuntu, for example, I had
>> trouble with sound and ethernet cards that I could never figure out...
>> and the kind of answers I get on their forums drive me insane ("my
>> uncle once said that his cousin typed this magical command and it
>> worked fine for a little while so maybe try that").
>>
>> And what's the deal with these "major release versions" of the other
>> distros?  Why do that?
>
> They are binary distros so they have no choice. For the duration of
> that version's life, all the packages shipped must all work together
> and that is only possible if the ABI does not change.

Arch Linux is a binary distro (by default, at least) and it seems to 
have gotten this right though.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Pandu Poluan]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2605 bytes --]

On Sep 11, 2012 5:29 PM, "Nikos Chantziaras" <realnc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 11/09/12 01:12, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 14:46:14 -0700
>> Chris Stankevitz <chrisstankevitz@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Gentoo is the best distribution I have used (I haven't used too many:
>>> ubuntu, fedora, gentoo).  I love the USE flags.  I love watching (and
>>> questioning) what is going to be installed.  I love emerge.
>>> Supposedly gentoo lacks being able to have a system "just work"
>>> without thinking about anything.  But in my experience on linux, this
>>> simply isn't the case anywhere.  With ubuntu, for example, I had
>>> trouble with sound and ethernet cards that I could never figure out...
>>> and the kind of answers I get on their forums drive me insane ("my
>>> uncle once said that his cousin typed this magical command and it
>>> worked fine for a little while so maybe try that").
>>>
>>> And what's the deal with these "major release versions" of the other
>>> distros?  Why do that?
>>
>>
>> They are binary distros so they have no choice. For the duration of
>> that version's life, all the packages shipped must all work together
>> and that is only possible if the ABI does not change.
>
>
> Arch Linux is a binary distro (by default, at least) and it seems to have
gotten this right though.
>
>

Strangely enough, I never managed to deploy Arch production servers. Always
got stuck in staging, after I tried setting up some packages, they always
end up not working.

It was most likely a fault of mine, not knowing the proper incantations and
druidic maneouvres required to run it properly... but I was impatient, and
was already *very* familiar with Gentoo, so I switched gear completely.
Within 24 hours -- most of the time taken by my obsession of 'remerging the
world using graphite, 3 times', I got me a properly running staging server
(and it got pushed into production after two weeks).

The beauty of Gentoo, IMO, is that I know exactly what is going on in my
servers. Entering the shell, I can figuratively feel the pulse of the beast.

In my current employment, I have to sadly say that I'm no longer using
Gentoo. The OS spec is set by the guys in the 'Application' Sub-Department,
and they invariably ask for either CentOS or Ubuntu... which I might add,
are all working well.

Again, I'm not bad-mouthing Arch, but for me it's an unsatisfying middle
ground between true rolling release distro (Gentoo) and versioned binary
distro (Ubuntu, CentOS). Of course, YMMV, but after my experience, I'd
settle at either end of the spectrum, not in the middle.

Rgds,

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3206 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Alan McKinnon]

On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 17:33:05 -0700
Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:

> Like Paul and many others I've never looked back. I'm no power user,
> and contrary to a lot of the press out there I don't think you need to
> be to use this distro.

That's actually quite perceptive and correct.

You don't need to be a genius wise-ass to use Gentoo. You just need to
have some brain-smarts and a willingness to look after your own stuff
yourself.

Gentoo appeals to the same personality that kit airplanes appeal to.
Some folks just love to tinker and build things themselves = a good
match for Gentoo.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Alex Schuster]

Alan McKinnon writes:

> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 17:33:05 -0700
> Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Like Paul and many others I've never looked back. I'm no power user,
>> and contrary to a lot of the press out there I don't think you need to
>> be to use this distro.
>
> That's actually quite perceptive and correct.
>
> You don't need to be a genius wise-ass to use Gentoo. You just need to
> have some brain-smarts and a willingness to look after your own stuff
> yourself.

It takes some more time though to maintain it, compared to the other 
distros. And the installation is much more complicated of course.

But unless you need very basic stuff only, it pays off later I think. 
When you get into trouble, there are decent howtos that usually do not 
simply explain _what_ to do, but _why_. When you installed your own 
Gentoo, you already know a lot about Linux. And where to look in case of 
problems. Other distros often hide what's going on deeper, and that's 
nice when all works, but when not, you're screwed.

It's also much more fun to actually _solve_ problems on Gentoo, than 
just googling how some other Ubuntu user 'solved' his problem by trying 
various commands that you do not understand what they do, but that might 
also work in your case. Or not.

	Wonko

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Alan McKinnon]

On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 05:43:09 -0400
Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> wrote:

> When I wanted to install Linux on my new netbook 2008,
> I quickly found that the simplest way to get everything to work
> was to install Gentoo, using my notes from previous desktop installs.
> In Gentoo, problems are almost always just  1  layer deep,
> tho' the Gentoo Forum also tends to be much more noise than signal.

That's why we have a gentoo-user mailing list instead ;-)

This mailing list is often noted out in the wild as a very high
signal-to-noise ratio list, in my experience that is definitely true.

The popular forum answer of "my granny's dog's owner once ran this
command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and see
if it repairs your password" just does not ever get proposed here :-)



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 378 bytes --]

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:03:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> The popular forum answer of "my granny's dog's owner once ran this
> command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and see
> if it repairs your password" just does not ever get proposed here :-)

Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Windows Error #01: No error... ...yet.

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Michael Mol]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 885 bytes --]

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:03:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>
> > The popular forum answer of "my granny's dog's owner once ran this
> > command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and see
> > if it repairs your password" just does not ever get proposed here :-)
>
> Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P
>

"Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"

"Turn off distcc"

"Just use $automagic tool" (magic is nice, if and only if I know what it's
doing)

"Just use dracut" (particularly puzzling, given that dracut needs to be
unmasked, while genkernel doesn't.)

On IRC, it's worse; I get all kinds of grief over my CFLAGS, even though I
never put anything there that "-O2 -ggdb -march=native" doesn't expand
to...I expand it so that I can use distcc without -march=native expanding
to the wrong set of flags!

-- 
:wq

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1426 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Philip Webb]

120912 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:03:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> The popular forum answer of "my granny's dog's owner once ran this
>> command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and see
>> if it repairs your password" just does not ever get proposed here :-)
> Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P

Oh no ! -- that's not my grannie's dog or even my mother's famous cat :
that's all my own ... (grin) !

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Alex Schuster]

Michael Mol writes:

> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk
> <mailto:neil@digimed.co.uk>> wrote:

>     Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P
>
> "Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"

Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using MAKEOPTS="-j 
--load=4", and I often experience build problems that are not 
reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how large.

> "Turn off distcc"

"revdep-rebuild"

And "emerge -e world && perl-cleaner --all && python-updater && 
lafilefixer --justfixit".

	Wonko

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Michael Mol]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2080 bytes --]

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:00 AM, Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:

> Michael Mol writes:
>
>  On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk
>> <mailto:neil@digimed.co.uk>> wrote:
>>
>
>      Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P
>>
>> "Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"
>>
>
> Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using MAKEOPTS="-j
> --load=4", and I often experience build problems that are not reproducible
> with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how large.
>

This can be done on a per-package basis, yet it's inevitably implied I
should do it in /etc/make.conf instead.

And, really, it's not hard (for me, at least) to repro and/or track down
the source of parallel-induced build failures; they tend to have a pretty
clear signature in the build log. If it's a parallel-induced build failure,
I can look at the log and tell you which target should have had a different
target as a dependency, but didn't. Last time it happened to me (months
ago!), everything I needed was in the last twenty lines of build output.

I only wish someone could pay me to do this stuff full-time, because I
enjoy it. :)


>
>  "Turn off distcc"
>>
>
> "revdep-rebuild"
>
> And "emerge -e world && perl-cleaner --all && python-updater &&
> lafilefixer --justfixit".
>

Indeed. And in theory, portage 2.2 (yeah, yeah) should make most of that
unnecessary. And I think the lafilefixer portion is now a default-enabled
feature in portage. Not absolutely sure, though.

(And I think you meant perl-cleaner --reallyall :P )

You should take a look at my gentoo install script and see how many of
those tidy-up-and-rebuild commands it runs...and then a pair of "emerge -e
@world" at the end to ensure any build-time dependent creeping changes work
their way through the entire system. (And that's probably not enough, if
you're looking for an absolute setup...it'd probably be necessary to
compare checksums on files between runs and keep building until the setup
converges...but that'd require being able to ignore anything that includes
build-time timestamps.)

-- 
:wq

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3307 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 259 bytes --]

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200, Alex Schuster wrote:

> And "emerge -e world && perl-cleaner --all && python-updater && 
> lafilefixer --justfixit".

You forgot "sync again".


-- 
Neil Bothwick

.                            <-Stealth Tagline

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 14:33:14 +0100
Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:03:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> 
> > The popular forum answer of "my granny's dog's owner once ran this
> > command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and
> > see if it repairs your password" just does not ever get proposed
> > here :-)
> 
> Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P
> 
> 

<ouch> !

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200
Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:

> Michael Mol writes:
> 
> > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk
> > <mailto:neil@digimed.co.uk>> wrote:
> 
> >     Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P
> >
> > "Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"
> 
> Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using
> MAKEOPTS="-j --load=4", and I often experience build problems that
> are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how
> large.

Yes indeed, and that one is good advice.

Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j > 1, so running it as one
job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird build
failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not.


> 
> > "Turn off distcc"
> 
> "revdep-rebuild"
> 
> And "emerge -e world && perl-cleaner --all && python-updater && 
> lafilefixer --justfixit".

Another example of proper debugging. A wise troubleshooter will first
verify that all relevant maintenance and consistency factors have been
done first before doing extensive troubleshooting.

The last one, "lafilefixer --justfixit" is especially valuable as it
gets right of a huge gigantic steaming pile of crap that a) should
never have been there at all in the first place and b) if it's causing
the problem is almost impossible to pin down without lots of work. So
even if b) is not true, you still get the huge benefit of a)





-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Michael Mol]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1963 bytes --]

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200
> Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:
>
> > Michael Mol writes:
> >
> > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk
> > > <mailto:neil@digimed.co.uk>> wrote:
> >
> > >     Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P
> > >
> > > "Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"
> >
> > Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using
> > MAKEOPTS="-j --load=4", and I often experience build problems that
> > are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how
> > large.
>
> Yes indeed, and that one is good advice.
>
> Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j > 1, so running it as one
> job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird build
> failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not.
>
>
Yeah, except I've already gone that route, or otherwise ruled it out,
before I ask. That's why it's grating. (Even more grating when I have to
spend the time building a package again, just to convince someone that, no,
it's not MAKEOPTS that's the problem.)

It's like "Have you tried turning it off and back on again".


> >
> > > "Turn off distcc"
> >
> > "revdep-rebuild"
> >
> > And "emerge -e world && perl-cleaner --all && python-updater &&
> > lafilefixer --justfixit".
>
> Another example of proper debugging. A wise troubleshooter will first
> verify that all relevant maintenance and consistency factors have been
> done first before doing extensive troubleshooting.
>
> The last one, "lafilefixer --justfixit" is especially valuable as it
> gets right of a huge gigantic steaming pile of crap that a) should
> never have been there at all in the first place and b) if it's causing
> the problem is almost impossible to pin down without lots of work. So
> even if b) is not true, you still get the huge benefit of a)
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Alan McKinnon
> alan.mckinnon@gmail.com
>
>
>


-- 
:wq

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3125 bytes --]

[gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Grant Edwards]

On 2012-09-12, Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:

> It takes some more time though to maintain it, compared to the other 
> distros.

My experience is the opposite.  Before Gentoo, I used mainly RPM-based
distros (first RedHat, then later Mandrake).

I find Gentoo requires much less maintenance effort than RH or
Mandrake did.  RH and Mandrake were fine right after install, but they
gradually deteriorate over time. Eventually you get to the point where
everytime you need to install or update something you end up in RPM
dependancy hell: package A requires one version of a library but
package B requires a different version.  You then spend _days_ trying
to find a compatible combination of applicaation and library RPMs.
This continues to get worse and worse over time, until...

... there's a major version upgrade.  Upgrading between major versions
always failed miserably, so you end up having to do a reinstall from
scratch every couple years.

None of that is a problem with Gentoo.  Occasionally, an upgrade
requires some tweaking of keywords or use-flags, but it's nothing like
the RPM dependancy hell and major-upgrade fiascos I had to put up with
from other distros.

I also used Debian on a few machines. They tended to be less hassle
than the RPM-based machines, but they were fairly minimalist server
machines (no X, no "desktop environments", no monster application
packages, just mail servers for a couple mailboxes).

> And the installation is much more complicated of course.

The installation itself is more complex, but when you're done the
system works.  With CentOS and Fedora Core, there's always hours of
futzing around after the install trying to get things like networking
running.  For most things, anything other than the one or two cases
allowed by the installer turns out to be a mess.  Don't get me started
on RedHat's two completely separate network configuration subsystems
that don't get along with each other...

And try telling Ubunto to install the bootloader in something other
than the MBR.  It gives you that option if you click enough buttons,
then it claims to have done it, but it just doesn't work...

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I threw up on my
                                  at               window!
                              gmail.com            

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Joshua Murphy]

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200
>> Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Michael Mol writes:
>> >
>> > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk
>> > > <mailto:neil@digimed.co.uk>> wrote:
>> >
>> > >     Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P
>> > >
>> > > "Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"
>> >
>> > Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using
>> > MAKEOPTS="-j --load=4", and I often experience build problems that
>> > are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how
>> > large.
>>
>> Yes indeed, and that one is good advice.
>>
>> Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j > 1, so running it as one
>> job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird build
>> failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not.
>>
>
> Yeah, except I've already gone that route, or otherwise ruled it out, before
> I ask. That's why it's grating. (Even more grating when I have to spend the
> time building a package again, just to convince someone that, no, it's not
> MAKEOPTS that's the problem.)
>
> It's like "Have you tried turning it off and back on again".
>
<snip>

And yet, for many who're in the daily job of working on other people's
systems, notably on-site, the first recommendation for many problems
is simply 'turn it off and back on again' because it does the trick
often enough to be worth it (and can avoid going out to the system
around 50% of the time, depending on the environment). Also, if you've
already gone that route, and ruled that out as a resolution, stating
as much generally tends to sidestep the initial few steps.

-- 
Poison [BLX]
Joshua M. Murphy

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Dale]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2012-09-12, Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:
>
>> It takes some more time though to maintain it, compared to the other 
>> distros.
> My experience is the opposite.  Before Gentoo, I used mainly RPM-based
> distros (first RedHat, then later Mandrake).
>
> I find Gentoo requires much less maintenance effort than RH or
> Mandrake did.  RH and Mandrake were fine right after install, but they
> gradually deteriorate over time. Eventually you get to the point where
> everytime you need to install or update something you end up in RPM
> dependancy hell: package A requires one version of a library but
> package B requires a different version.  You then spend _days_ trying
> to find a compatible combination of applicaation and library RPMs.
> This continues to get worse and worse over time, until...
>
> ... there's a major version upgrade.  Upgrading between major versions
> always failed miserably, so you end up having to do a reinstall from
> scratch every couple years.
>
> None of that is a problem with Gentoo.  Occasionally, an upgrade
> requires some tweaking of keywords or use-flags, but it's nothing like
> the RPM dependancy hell and major-upgrade fiascos I had to put up with
> from other distros.

+1.  Should be +10 or so but you get the idea.  I left Mandriva because
of this issue and the init thingy that always gave me fits.  Gentoo may
take a bit longer to install something but it works like it should when
it is done.  Emerge is really good at sorting out the dependencies for
the past couple years or more too.  Things that used to be a hair puller
are now done with magic.  Zac has some good magic skills.  I hope he
read that.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Michael Mol]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3704 bytes --]

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:09 PM, Joshua Murphy <poisonbl@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200
> >> Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Michael Mol writes:
> >> >
> >> > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk
> >> > > <mailto:neil@digimed.co.uk>> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >     Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P
> >> > >
> >> > > "Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"
> >> >
> >> > Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using
> >> > MAKEOPTS="-j --load=4", and I often experience build problems that
> >> > are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how
> >> > large.
> >>
> >> Yes indeed, and that one is good advice.
> >>
> >> Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j > 1, so running it as one
> >> job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird build
> >> failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not.
> >>
> >
> > Yeah, except I've already gone that route, or otherwise ruled it out,
> before
> > I ask. That's why it's grating. (Even more grating when I have to spend
> the
> > time building a package again, just to convince someone that, no, it's
> not
> > MAKEOPTS that's the problem.)
> >
> > It's like "Have you tried turning it off and back on again".
> >
> <snip>
>
> And yet, for many who're in the daily job of working on other people's
> systems, notably on-site, the first recommendation for many problems
> is simply 'turn it off and back on again' because it does the trick
> often enough to be worth it (and can avoid going out to the system
> around 50% of the time, depending on the environment). Also, if you've
> already gone that route, and ruled that out as a resolution, stating
> as much generally tends to sidestep the initial few steps.
>

You know as well as I do that anyone who claims to have already turned
something off and back on again is assumed to be merely trying to sidestep
those questions without necessarily having performed those steps, or with
having performed those steps in error; that's true 99% of the time.

You're probably also familiar with putting users through the basic steps
just to get yourself to a diagnostic baseline.

I'm not saying I don't understand why people push traditional cleanup
recipes before actually trying to understand the problem. As an advanced
user, it's just one of those extremely frustrating things, along with:

* RTFM (hey, I did!)
* LMGTFY (hey, it's not like I didn't search for myself, first)
* Did you try rebooting? (uh...)

In reality, nobody believes you really did your homework, presuming that if
you had, your problem would be solved. After all, it's entirely
statistically probable you've got another mundane problem like 99% of
everyone else. And since they don't believe you did your homework, they'll
ask you to do it again.

Generally speaking, I don't _get_ mundane problems on a Gentoo system. I'll
probably have dug into the source code before I ask questions. The last
time I had an issue on Gentoo where I needed assistance, it turned out to
be a glibc bug. I must have gone through at least ten people who each had
me poke at the usual suspects. I lost _months_ on some of my hardware
because of this. One of those machines is still down, but only because the
system had previously had a long enough uptime that boot-impacting-only
hardware failures creeped in and slammed me when I went to reboot.

But, really, this all boils down to a simple case: Sometimes the user
really does know what he's doing.

-- 
:wq

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4925 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Michael Hampicke]

Am 12.09.2012 15:47, schrieb Michael Mol:
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:03:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>
>>> The popular forum answer of "my granny's dog's owner once ran this
>>> command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and see
>>> if it repairs your password" just does not ever get proposed here :-)
>>
>> Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P
>>
> 
> "Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"
> 
> "Turn off distcc"
> 
> "Just use $automagic tool" (magic is nice, if and only if I know what it's
> doing)
> 
> "Just use dracut" (particularly puzzling, given that dracut needs to be
> unmasked, while genkernel doesn't.)
> 
> On IRC, it's worse; I get all kinds of grief over my CFLAGS, even though I
> never put anything there that "-O2 -ggdb -march=native" doesn't expand
> to...I expand it so that I can use distcc without -march=native expanding
> to the wrong set of flags!
> 

Try the current overlay :)

( * having an epic battle with gnome overlay atm * )

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Michael Mol]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1279 bytes --]

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Michael Hampicke <gentoo-user@hadt.biz>wrote:

> Am 12.09.2012 15:47, schrieb Michael Mol:
> > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:03:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >>
> >>> The popular forum answer of "my granny's dog's owner once ran this
> >>> command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and see
> >>> if it repairs your password" just does not ever get proposed here :-)
> >>
> >> Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P
> >>
> >
> > "Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"
> >
> > "Turn off distcc"
> >
> > "Just use $automagic tool" (magic is nice, if and only if I know what
> it's
> > doing)
> >
> > "Just use dracut" (particularly puzzling, given that dracut needs to be
> > unmasked, while genkernel doesn't.)
> >
> > On IRC, it's worse; I get all kinds of grief over my CFLAGS, even though
> I
> > never put anything there that "-O2 -ggdb -march=native" doesn't expand
> > to...I expand it so that I can use distcc without -march=native expanding
> > to the wrong set of flags!
> >
>
> Try the current overlay :)
>
> ( * having an epic battle with gnome overlay atm * )
>
>
Formerly known as "try the latest trunk" or, if you're lucky, "it's fixed
in $vcs".


-- 
:wq

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1983 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Mittwoch, 12. September 2012, 12:03:04 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 05:43:09 -0400
> 
> Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> wrote:
> > When I wanted to install Linux on my new netbook 2008,
> > I quickly found that the simplest way to get everything to work
> > was to install Gentoo, using my notes from previous desktop installs.
> > In Gentoo, problems are almost always just  1  layer deep,
> > tho' the Gentoo Forum also tends to be much more noise than signal.
> 
> That's why we have a gentoo-user mailing list instead ;-)
> 
> This mailing list is often noted out in the wild as a very high
> signal-to-noise ratio list, in my experience that is definitely true.

and for a simple reason: ml have always been. So 'old timers' and 'people 
knowing their crap' hang around those. Then came AOL, eternal September and 
forums for this new crop of lol users. And since like minded people love to 
congrate... 

There have been good forums in the past. Even now. But forums have a massive 
problem, even the great ones: if they go down everything is lost. 

Mailing lists? Mirrored everywhere. Including your harddisk. Mailing lists are 
archives. Forums are yelling competitions.

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Mark Knecht]

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
>
> There have been good forums in the past. Even now. But forums have a massive
> problem, even the great ones: if they go down everything is lost.
>

+1

NVidia had some really good forums. They got hacked, passwords &
Account IDs stolen & NVidia took them down. There were threads in
there I had gone back to multiple times that I can no longer get to.
Sad.

- Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:15:25 -0400
Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Alan McKinnon
> <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200
> > Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Michael Mol writes:
> > >
> > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick
> > > > <neil@digimed.co.uk <mailto:neil@digimed.co.uk>> wrote:
> > >
> > > >     Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P
> > > >
> > > > "Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"
> > >
> > > Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using
> > > MAKEOPTS="-j --load=4", and I often experience build problems that
> > > are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how
> > > large.
> >
> > Yes indeed, and that one is good advice.
> >
> > Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j > 1, so running it as
> > one job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird
> > build failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not.
> >
> >
> Yeah, except I've already gone that route, or otherwise ruled it out,
> before I ask. That's why it's grating. (Even more grating when I have
> to spend the time building a package again, just to convince someone
> that, no, it's not MAKEOPTS that's the problem.)
> 
> It's like "Have you tried turning it off and back on again".

I learned that one the hard way :-)

Now when I submit support posts, I try emulate what bgo asks:

1. nature of problem
2. what have I tried already
3. steps to reproduce
4. result gotten
5. expected result
6. relevant config files and settings

Tends to weed out a lot of the silly auto-bot style answers


> 
> 
> > >
> > > > "Turn off distcc"
> > >
> > > "revdep-rebuild"
> > >
> > > And "emerge -e world && perl-cleaner --all && python-updater &&
> > > lafilefixer --justfixit".
> >
> > Another example of proper debugging. A wise troubleshooter will
> > first verify that all relevant maintenance and consistency factors
> > have been done first before doing extensive troubleshooting.
> >
> > The last one, "lafilefixer --justfixit" is especially valuable as it
> > gets right of a huge gigantic steaming pile of crap that a) should
> > never have been there at all in the first place and b) if it's
> > causing the problem is almost impossible to pin down without lots
> > of work. So even if b) is not true, you still get the huge benefit
> > of a)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Alan McKinnon
> > alan.mckinnon@gmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Michael Mol]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2292 bytes --]

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 4:57 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:15:25 -0400
> Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Alan McKinnon
> > <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200
> > > Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Michael Mol writes:
> > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick
> > > > > <neil@digimed.co.uk <mailto:neil@digimed.co.uk>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >     Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P
> > > > >
> > > > > "Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"
> > > >
> > > > Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using
> > > > MAKEOPTS="-j --load=4", and I often experience build problems that
> > > > are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how
> > > > large.
> > >
> > > Yes indeed, and that one is good advice.
> > >
> > > Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j > 1, so running it as
> > > one job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird
> > > build failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not.
> > >
> > >
> > Yeah, except I've already gone that route, or otherwise ruled it out,
> > before I ask. That's why it's grating. (Even more grating when I have
> > to spend the time building a package again, just to convince someone
> > that, no, it's not MAKEOPTS that's the problem.)
> >
> > It's like "Have you tried turning it off and back on again".
>
> I learned that one the hard way :-)
>
> Now when I submit support posts, I try emulate what bgo asks:
>
> 1. nature of problem
> 2. what have I tried already
> 3. steps to reproduce
> 4. result gotten
> 5. expected result
> 6. relevant config files and settings
>
> Tends to weed out a lot of the silly auto-bot style answers
>
>
I'm going through one on launchpad right now where I indicated that I
couldn't get beeps out of xterm, but I could get sound from sound-emitting
websites. (Trying to get x11 bell to function via PulseAudio via work
laptop)

First response? "Needs information: Can you get sound from other sound
apps?"

#pulseaudio simply ignored me. And googling turns up that Lennart hates the
X server as being a funnel for sound events. I was physically twitching by
the time I gave up...

-- 
:wq

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3431 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Paul Hartman]

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 4:57 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:15:25 -0400
>> Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Alan McKinnon
>> > <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200
>> > > Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Michael Mol writes:
>> > > >
>> > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick
>> > > > > <neil@digimed.co.uk <mailto:neil@digimed.co.uk>> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > >     Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P
>> > > > >
>> > > > > "Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"
>> > > >
>> > > > Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using
>> > > > MAKEOPTS="-j --load=4", and I often experience build problems that
>> > > > are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how
>> > > > large.
>> > >
>> > > Yes indeed, and that one is good advice.
>> > >
>> > > Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j > 1, so running it as
>> > > one job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird
>> > > build failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > Yeah, except I've already gone that route, or otherwise ruled it out,
>> > before I ask. That's why it's grating. (Even more grating when I have
>> > to spend the time building a package again, just to convince someone
>> > that, no, it's not MAKEOPTS that's the problem.)
>> >
>> > It's like "Have you tried turning it off and back on again".
>>
>> I learned that one the hard way :-)
>>
>> Now when I submit support posts, I try emulate what bgo asks:
>>
>> 1. nature of problem
>> 2. what have I tried already
>> 3. steps to reproduce
>> 4. result gotten
>> 5. expected result
>> 6. relevant config files and settings
>>
>> Tends to weed out a lot of the silly auto-bot style answers
>>
>
> I'm going through one on launchpad right now where I indicated that I
> couldn't get beeps out of xterm, but I could get sound from sound-emitting
> websites. (Trying to get x11 bell to function via PulseAudio via work
> laptop)
>
> First response? "Needs information: Can you get sound from other sound
> apps?"
>
> #pulseaudio simply ignored me. And googling turns up that Lennart hates the
> X server as being a funnel for sound events. I was physically twitching by
> the time I gave up...

It is not a feature I use, but... I think you need the x11-bell module
loaded in your PA config, and point it to a valid sound file
containing your preferred beep noise. Maybe then also run "xset b on"
in X... maybe some "xset b something" to set volume of the beep as
well, and hope your desktop environment doesn't override your hard
work with its own sound preferences. :)

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> <SNIP>
>> There have been good forums in the past. Even now. But forums have a massive
>> problem, even the great ones: if they go down everything is lost.
>>
> +1
>
> NVidia had some really good forums. They got hacked, passwords &
> Account IDs stolen & NVidia took them down. There were threads in
> there I had gone back to multiple times that I can no longer get to.
> Sad.
>
> - Mark
>
>


I wonder if that is why I get more spam?  How long ago was this break
in?  I had a account there way back but haven't been there since I use
Gentoo and have the FINE folks here to help.  Who needs them when you
have the Gentoo mailing lists.  lol 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Michael Mol]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3237 bytes --]

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 5:59 PM, Paul Hartman <paul.hartman+gentoo@gmail.com
> wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 4:57 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:15:25 -0400
> >> Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Alan McKinnon
> >> > <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200
> >> > > Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Michael Mol writes:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick
> >> > > > > <neil@digimed.co.uk <mailto:neil@digimed.co.uk>> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > >     Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > "Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using
> >> > > > MAKEOPTS="-j --load=4", and I often experience build problems that
> >> > > > are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how
> >> > > > large.
> >> > >
> >> > > Yes indeed, and that one is good advice.
> >> > >
> >> > > Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j > 1, so running it as
> >> > > one job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird
> >> > > build failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > Yeah, except I've already gone that route, or otherwise ruled it out,
> >> > before I ask. That's why it's grating. (Even more grating when I have
> >> > to spend the time building a package again, just to convince someone
> >> > that, no, it's not MAKEOPTS that's the problem.)
> >> >
> >> > It's like "Have you tried turning it off and back on again".
> >>
> >> I learned that one the hard way :-)
> >>
> >> Now when I submit support posts, I try emulate what bgo asks:
> >>
> >> 1. nature of problem
> >> 2. what have I tried already
> >> 3. steps to reproduce
> >> 4. result gotten
> >> 5. expected result
> >> 6. relevant config files and settings
> >>
> >> Tends to weed out a lot of the silly auto-bot style answers
> >>
> >
> > I'm going through one on launchpad right now where I indicated that I
> > couldn't get beeps out of xterm, but I could get sound from
> sound-emitting
> > websites. (Trying to get x11 bell to function via PulseAudio via work
> > laptop)
> >
> > First response? "Needs information: Can you get sound from other sound
> > apps?"
> >
> > #pulseaudio simply ignored me. And googling turns up that Lennart hates
> the
> > X server as being a funnel for sound events. I was physically twitching
> by
> > the time I gave up...
>
> It is not a feature I use, but... I think you need the x11-bell module
> loaded in your PA config, and point it to a valid sound file
> containing your preferred beep noise. Maybe then also run "xset b on"
> in X... maybe some "xset b something" to set volume of the beep as
> well, and hope your desktop environment doesn't override your hard
> work with its own sound preferences. :)
>

xset is set properly, x11-bell module is loaded...but it's entirely unclear
how to get it pointed at a valid sample file. Even PulseAudio's "Perfect
Setup" page glosses over it.

-- 
:wq

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4833 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Paul Hartman]

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 5:08 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 5:59 PM, Paul Hartman
> <paul.hartman+gentoo@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 4:57 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:15:25 -0400
>> >> Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Alan McKinnon
>> >> > <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200
>> >> > > Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > Michael Mol writes:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick
>> >> > > > > <neil@digimed.co.uk <mailto:neil@digimed.co.uk>> wrote:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > >     Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > "Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using
>> >> > > > MAKEOPTS="-j --load=4", and I often experience build problems
>> >> > > > that
>> >> > > > are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how
>> >> > > > large.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Yes indeed, and that one is good advice.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j > 1, so running it as
>> >> > > one job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird
>> >> > > build failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > Yeah, except I've already gone that route, or otherwise ruled it out,
>> >> > before I ask. That's why it's grating. (Even more grating when I have
>> >> > to spend the time building a package again, just to convince someone
>> >> > that, no, it's not MAKEOPTS that's the problem.)
>> >> >
>> >> > It's like "Have you tried turning it off and back on again".
>> >>
>> >> I learned that one the hard way :-)
>> >>
>> >> Now when I submit support posts, I try emulate what bgo asks:
>> >>
>> >> 1. nature of problem
>> >> 2. what have I tried already
>> >> 3. steps to reproduce
>> >> 4. result gotten
>> >> 5. expected result
>> >> 6. relevant config files and settings
>> >>
>> >> Tends to weed out a lot of the silly auto-bot style answers
>> >>
>> >
>> > I'm going through one on launchpad right now where I indicated that I
>> > couldn't get beeps out of xterm, but I could get sound from
>> > sound-emitting
>> > websites. (Trying to get x11 bell to function via PulseAudio via work
>> > laptop)
>> >
>> > First response? "Needs information: Can you get sound from other sound
>> > apps?"
>> >
>> > #pulseaudio simply ignored me. And googling turns up that Lennart hates
>> > the
>> > X server as being a funnel for sound events. I was physically twitching
>> > by
>> > the time I gave up...
>>
>> It is not a feature I use, but... I think you need the x11-bell module
>> loaded in your PA config, and point it to a valid sound file
>> containing your preferred beep noise. Maybe then also run "xset b on"
>> in X... maybe some "xset b something" to set volume of the beep as
>> well, and hope your desktop environment doesn't override your hard
>> work with its own sound preferences. :)
>
>
> xset is set properly, x11-bell module is loaded...but it's entirely unclear
> how to get it pointed at a valid sample file. Even PulseAudio's "Perfect
> Setup" page glosses over it.

/etc/pulse/default.pa on gentoo contains this line (commented out):
load-sample-lazy x11-bell /usr/share/sounds/gtk-events/activate.wav

I'm assuming that creates a sample called x11-bell, then I think later
on when you load the module, you would reference it like:
load-module module-x11-bell sample=x11-bell

then hopefully your xset commands might actually produce something
audible. Cross your fingers, etc. :)

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Graham Murray]

Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> writes:

> and for a simple reason: ml have always been. So 'old timers' and 'people 
> knowing their crap' hang around those. Then came AOL, eternal September and 
> forums for this new crop of lol users. And since like minded people love to 
> congrate... 

And prior to the 'modern' forums, the quality of CompuServe forums was
(IMHO) far higher than nearly all of today's web-based forums.

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Daniel Wagener]

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:55:37 +0200
Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> > lafilefixer --justfixit".

> The last one, "lafilefixer --justfixit" is especially valuable as it
> gets right of a huge gigantic steaming pile of crap that a) should
> never have been there at all in the first place and b) if it's causing
> the problem is almost impossible to pin down without lots of work. So
> even if b) is not true, you still get the huge benefit of a)

while we are at it…
does it still make sense to run it on a regular basis or can I purge it from my maintenace script?e

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Dale]

Daniel Wagener wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:55:37 +0200
> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> lafilefixer --justfixit".
>> The last one, "lafilefixer --justfixit" is especially valuable as it
>> gets right of a huge gigantic steaming pile of crap that a) should
>> never have been there at all in the first place and b) if it's causing
>> the problem is almost impossible to pin down without lots of work. So
>> even if b) is not true, you still get the huge benefit of a)
> while we are at it…
> does it still make sense to run it on a regular basis or can I purge it from my maintenace script?e
>
>

I think it depends on your version of portage.  Older portage versions
needs you to run it and newer versions I think have it built into
portage or another way to fix this.  You may want to post what version
of portage you are using to get a more accurate answer. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Paul Hartman]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Daniel Wagener <stelf@gmx.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:55:37 +0200
> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > lafilefixer --justfixit".
>
>> The last one, "lafilefixer --justfixit" is especially valuable as it
>> gets right of a huge gigantic steaming pile of crap that a) should
>> never have been there at all in the first place and b) if it's causing
>> the problem is almost impossible to pin down without lots of work. So
>> even if b) is not true, you still get the huge benefit of a)
>
> while we are at it…
> does it still make sense to run it on a regular basis or can I purge it from my maintenace script?e

In newer version of portage you can add "fixlafiles" to FEATURES and
there is no need to manually run the lxfilefixer program.

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is the best linux distro

[Allan Gottlieb]

On Thu, Sep 20 2012, Paul Hartman wrote:

> In newer version of portage you can add "fixlafiles" to FEATURES and
> there is no need to manually run the lxfilefixer program.

Thanks.  I hadn't seen this before.  It is in the make.conf man page for
my system which is ~amd64.  So I assume "newer versions of portage" does
not require the 2.2 (masked, but used by some on this list).

Thanks again,
allan