[gentoo-user] Scanners, sane and driver support question

[gentoo-user] Scanners, sane and driver support question

[Dale]

Howdy,

I'm on the hunt for a scanner, flatbed type, and have been browsing Ebay
and the sane project list of supported devices.  I'm leaning toward HP
on this.  While looking at say a ScanJet 6200C, it says the drivers are
no longer maintained but complete.  It leads me to this question.  Does
that mean they are complete and fixes will no longer be made even if
something breaks them and they need a little tweaking OR they are
complete and if a bug pops up, they will be fixed as needed but all
functions work?  I can see the logic either way on this.  I'm leaning
toward the side that if something pops up that requires a little
tweaking, it will be done by someone.  The drivers are just feature
complete. 

Does anyone else have the same thinking or is buying one of these
scanners a bad idea if the drivers were to break and the scanner was
rendered no longer usable? 

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Scanners, sane and driver support question

[Corbin Bird]

A family member still uses a old SCSI Mustek flat bed scanner.
( Paragon 1200 SP ?? / last windows driver was for Win2K ).

Works just fine. The Linux drivers are old, but nothing wrong with them.

On 11/10/18 6:35 PM, Dale wrote:
> Howdy,
> 
> I'm on the hunt for a scanner, flatbed type, and have been browsing Ebay
> and the sane project list of supported devices.  I'm leaning toward HP
> on this.  While looking at say a ScanJet 6200C, it says the drivers are
> no longer maintained but complete.  It leads me to this question.  Does
> that mean they are complete and fixes will no longer be made even if
> something breaks them and they need a little tweaking OR they are
> complete and if a bug pops up, they will be fixed as needed but all
> functions work?  I can see the logic either way on this.  I'm leaning
> toward the side that if something pops up that requires a little
> tweaking, it will be done by someone.  The drivers are just feature
> complete. 
> 
> Does anyone else have the same thinking or is buying one of these
> scanners a bad idea if the drivers were to break and the scanner was
> rendered no longer usable? 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-) 
> 

Re: [gentoo-user] Scanners, sane and driver support question

[J. Roeleveld]

On Sunday, November 11, 2018 1:35:29 AM CET Dale wrote:
> Howdy,
> 
> I'm on the hunt for a scanner, flatbed type, and have been browsing Ebay
> and the sane project list of supported devices.  I'm leaning toward HP
> on this.  While looking at say a ScanJet 6200C, it says the drivers are
> no longer maintained but complete.  It leads me to this question.  Does
> that mean they are complete and fixes will no longer be made even if
> something breaks them and they need a little tweaking OR they are
> complete and if a bug pops up, they will be fixed as needed but all
> functions work?  I can see the logic either way on this.  I'm leaning
> toward the side that if something pops up that requires a little
> tweaking, it will be done by someone.  The drivers are just feature
> complete. 
> 
> Does anyone else have the same thinking or is buying one of these
> scanners a bad idea if the drivers were to break and the scanner was
> rendered no longer usable? 

In short:

"No longer maintained" = "If something breaks, you can try to fix it yourself"
"Complete" =(usually)= "All functionality works at time of testing"

In general, if the drivers are Open Source, someone somewhere might still be 
maintaining this if anything does break. If there is a binary blob required to 
make it work, it depends on how this part actually works.
If it can be treated like an appliance (eg. with input X will always do Y and 
output Z), then you can ignore the fact it is a black box.

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] Scanners, sane and driver support question

[Dale]

J. Roeleveld wrote:
> On Sunday, November 11, 2018 1:35:29 AM CET Dale wrote:
>> Howdy,
>>
>> I'm on the hunt for a scanner, flatbed type, and have been browsing Ebay
>> and the sane project list of supported devices.  I'm leaning toward HP
>> on this.  While looking at say a ScanJet 6200C, it says the drivers are
>> no longer maintained but complete.  It leads me to this question.  Does
>> that mean they are complete and fixes will no longer be made even if
>> something breaks them and they need a little tweaking OR they are
>> complete and if a bug pops up, they will be fixed as needed but all
>> functions work?  I can see the logic either way on this.  I'm leaning
>> toward the side that if something pops up that requires a little
>> tweaking, it will be done by someone.  The drivers are just feature
>> complete. 
>>
>> Does anyone else have the same thinking or is buying one of these
>> scanners a bad idea if the drivers were to break and the scanner was
>> rendered no longer usable? 
> In short:
>
> "No longer maintained" = "If something breaks, you can try to fix it yourself"
> "Complete" =(usually)= "All functionality works at time of testing"
>
> In general, if the drivers are Open Source, someone somewhere might still be 
> maintaining this if anything does break. If there is a binary blob required to 
> make it work, it depends on how this part actually works.
> If it can be treated like an appliance (eg. with input X will always do Y and 
> output Z), then you can ignore the fact it is a black box.
>
> --
> Joost
>

Thanks for the info.  I figured someone may have a little better idea on
this.  After some more digging, I found a ScanJet 4570C which is
actually a little better than the others I was looking at.  So, I bought
it.  It shows complete but appears to be still maintained. 

Thanks much to you and Corbin.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Scanners, sane and driver support question

[Wol's lists]

On 11/11/2018 14:29, Dale wrote:
> Thanks for the info.  I figured someone may have a little better idea on
> this.  After some more digging, I found a ScanJet 4570C which is
> actually a little better than the others I was looking at.  So, I bought
> it.  It shows complete but appears to be still maintained.

I've got an HP MFP 477 (not cheap - nigh on £400), but it has what I 
call "push scanning". Configure samba, point the printer at it, and when 
you hit "scan" it dumps a pdf, or jpeg, or whatever, in the samba folder 
you told it to.

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Scanners, sane and driver support question

[Dale]

Wol's lists wrote:
> On 11/11/2018 14:29, Dale wrote:
>> Thanks for the info.  I figured someone may have a little better idea on
>> this.  After some more digging, I found a ScanJet 4570C which is
>> actually a little better than the others I was looking at.  So, I bought
>> it.  It shows complete but appears to be still maintained.
>
> I've got an HP MFP 477 (not cheap - nigh on £400), but it has what I
> call "push scanning". Configure samba, point the printer at it, and
> when you hit "scan" it dumps a pdf, or jpeg, or whatever, in the samba
> folder you told it to.
>
> Cheers,
> Wol
>


I thought about a all-in-one approach, since I need a printer too. 
Thing is, printers seems to break a lot.  The cheapos may last a few
years, from past experience, but die shortly after the warranty does. 
So, I wanted a stand alone scanner that I hope will last me a long
time.  Plus, this scanner can do negatives and such with a adapter which
I can get later.  Also, I plan to get a color laser printer later on. 
From what I've read, they can last for many years and it's cheaper for
the toner than all those cartridges etc for ink jets. 

Now if someone local wanted to give me something that is like a fancy
copy machine that prints, scans and maybe even washes dishes, I'd take
it.  I'm not sure where I would put it but still.  ;-)

One thing I've figured out.  Cheaper on the front end, pay for it on the
backend.  Pay a little more on the front end, more dependable and
cheaper later on consumables.  Hey, at least I'm figuring it out.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Scanners, sane and driver support question

[J. Roeleveld]

On Sunday, November 11, 2018 11:07:23 PM CET Dale wrote:
> Wol's lists wrote:
> > On 11/11/2018 14:29, Dale wrote:
> >> Thanks for the info.  I figured someone may have a little better idea on
> >> this.  After some more digging, I found a ScanJet 4570C which is
> >> actually a little better than the others I was looking at.  So, I bought
> >> it.  It shows complete but appears to be still maintained.
> > 
> > I've got an HP MFP 477 (not cheap - nigh on £400), but it has what I
> > call "push scanning". Configure samba, point the printer at it, and
> > when you hit "scan" it dumps a pdf, or jpeg, or whatever, in the samba
> > folder you told it to.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Wol
> 
> I thought about a all-in-one approach, since I need a printer too. 
> Thing is, printers seems to break a lot.  The cheapos may last a few
> years, from past experience, but die shortly after the warranty does. 

I have the same experience, when using ink-based printers. My current 
Laserprinter doesn't seem to want to die.

> So, I wanted a stand alone scanner that I hope will last me a long
> time.  Plus, this scanner can do negatives and such with a adapter which
> I can get later.

I tried that once, the quality of the results was really bad. I ended up 
borrowing a proper negative-scanner from a colleague. That was a windows-only 
one, but the quality of the scans more than made up for having to use that. 
(And using VirtualBox, I got better performance, eg. scanspeed, than when 
using windows native)

> Also, I plan to get a color laser printer later on. 
> From what I've read, they can last for many years and it's cheaper for
> the toner than all those cartridges etc for ink jets. 

I got a colour laser all-in-one, it's nearly 8 years old and not had any 
problems with it. Would like to replace it for a double-sided (print and scan) 
version though.

> Now if someone local wanted to give me something that is like a fancy
> copy machine that prints, scans and maybe even washes dishes, I'd take
> it.  I'm not sure where I would put it but still.  ;-)

Try old office buildings, they do remove them as cost-saving exercises on 
occasion, you might be able to pick one up? (you do have a big car/van/truck 
to move it?)

> One thing I've figured out.  Cheaper on the front end, pay for it on the
> backend.  Pay a little more on the front end, more dependable and
> cheaper later on consumables.  Hey, at least I'm figuring it out.  lol

It's a hard lesson to learn, but once learned, it sticks. :)

--
Joost

PS. glad your mom is doing fine

Re: [gentoo-user] Scanners, sane and driver support question

[Dale]

J. Roeleveld wrote:
> On Sunday, November 11, 2018 11:07:23 PM CET Dale wrote:
>
>> So, I wanted a stand alone scanner that I hope will last me a long
>> time.  Plus, this scanner can do negatives and such with a adapter which
>> I can get later.
> I tried that once, the quality of the results was really bad. I ended up 
> borrowing a proper negative-scanner from a colleague. That was a windows-only 
> one, but the quality of the scans more than made up for having to use that. 
> (And using VirtualBox, I got better performance, eg. scanspeed, than when 
> using windows native)

I have to admit, I have very little negatives.  The ones I have may be
so old they are not worth anything.  I tend to take better care of pics
than negatives for some reason.  Still, as long as the scanner will give
me several years of service, I'll be happy.  I just don't want a
scanner/printer pile with only parts of each one working.  I don't have
enough room as it is.  lol


>> Also, I plan to get a color laser printer later on. 
>> From what I've read, they can last for many years and it's cheaper for
>> the toner than all those cartridges etc for ink jets. 
> I got a colour laser all-in-one, it's nearly 8 years old and not had any 
> problems with it. Would like to replace it for a double-sided (print and scan) 
> version though.

Just curious, are there any good or bad brands to avoid?  I've tried to
stick with HP for scanners/printers since they are usually supported,
but not always. 


>> Now if someone local wanted to give me something that is like a fancy
>> copy machine that prints, scans and maybe even washes dishes, I'd take
>> it.  I'm not sure where I would put it but still.  ;-)
> Try old office buildings, they do remove them as cost-saving exercises on 
> occasion, you might be able to pick one up? (you do have a big car/van/truck 
> to move it?)
>

I have a friend that has one.  I have one but need to get it running
again.  Starter, radiator and a couple other issues to deal with. 
Starter is the first hurdle tho. 


>> One thing I've figured out.  Cheaper on the front end, pay for it on the
>> backend.  Pay a little more on the front end, more dependable and
>> cheaper later on consumables.  Hey, at least I'm figuring it out.  lol
> It's a hard lesson to learn, but once learned, it sticks. :)
>
> --
> Joost
>
> PS. glad your mom is doing fine
>

Yep.  I've also learned that the more heads, usually the better plan. 
That's why I have that other thread about storing all my videos.  Geez,
I got a TON of videos.  If I started watching them 24/7, it would take
me about 2 years to get through them all.  I'm adding to them quite often. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Scanners, sane and driver support question

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 00:24:11 -0600, Dale wrote:

> >> Also, I plan to get a color laser printer later on. 
> >> From what I've read, they can last for many years and it's cheaper
> >> for the toner than all those cartridges etc for ink jets.   
> > I got a colour laser all-in-one, it's nearly 8 years old and not had
> > any problems with it. Would like to replace it for a double-sided
> > (print and scan) version though.  
> 
> Just curious, are there any good or bad brands to avoid?  I've tried to
> stick with HP for scanner.s/printers since they are usually supported,
> but not always. 

I bought an HP_Color (their spelling, not mine!) LaserJet MFP M476dw a
few years ago. It does duplex printing and scanning and just works. A
full set of toner cartridges isn't cheap, but they last well.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Do I BELIEVE in the Bible?! HELL man, I've SEEN one!!!

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Re: [gentoo-user] Scanners, sane and driver support question

[J. Roeleveld]

On Monday, November 12, 2018 7:24:11 AM CET Dale wrote:
> J. Roeleveld wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 11, 2018 11:07:23 PM CET Dale wrote:
> >> So, I wanted a stand alone scanner that I hope will last me a long
> >> time.  Plus, this scanner can do negatives and such with a adapter which
> >> I can get later.
> > 
> > I tried that once, the quality of the results was really bad. I ended up
> > borrowing a proper negative-scanner from a colleague. That was a
> > windows-only one, but the quality of the scans more than made up for
> > having to use that. (And using VirtualBox, I got better performance, eg.
> > scanspeed, than when using windows native)
> 
> I have to admit, I have very little negatives.  The ones I have may be
> so old they are not worth anything.  I tend to take better care of pics
> than negatives for some reason.  Still, as long as the scanner will give
> me several years of service, I'll be happy.  I just don't want a
> scanner/printer pile with only parts of each one working.  I don't have
> enough room as it is.  lol

Same here, which is why I was glad a colleague had one I could borrow.
Ran through the whole collection in 4 weeks (evenings) and no need to do it 
again.

> >> Also, I plan to get a color laser printer later on.
> >> From what I've read, they can last for many years and it's cheaper for
> >> the toner than all those cartridges etc for ink jets.
> > 
> > I got a colour laser all-in-one, it's nearly 8 years old and not had any
> > problems with it. Would like to replace it for a double-sided (print and
> > scan) version though.
> 
> Just curious, are there any good or bad brands to avoid?  I've tried to
> stick with HP for scanners/printers since they are usually supported,
> but not always. 

I never had driver issues with HP, so tend to stick with them.

> >> Now if someone local wanted to give me something that is like a fancy
> >> copy machine that prints, scans and maybe even washes dishes, I'd take
> >> it.  I'm not sure where I would put it but still.  ;-)
> > 
> > Try old office buildings, they do remove them as cost-saving exercises on
> > occasion, you might be able to pick one up? (you do have a big
> > car/van/truck to move it?)
> 
> I have a friend that has one.  I have one but need to get it running
> again.  Starter, radiator and a couple other issues to deal with. 
> Starter is the first hurdle tho. 

Had to think this through a few times. As we're talking about printer/
scanners, I was wondering what kind of beast has a starter and radiator...

> >> One thing I've figured out.  Cheaper on the front end, pay for it on the
> >> backend.  Pay a little more on the front end, more dependable and
> >> cheaper later on consumables.  Hey, at least I'm figuring it out.  lol
> > 
> > It's a hard lesson to learn, but once learned, it sticks. :)
> > 
> > --
> > Joost
> > 
> > PS. glad your mom is doing fine
> 
> Yep.  I've also learned that the more heads, usually the better plan. 
> That's why I have that other thread about storing all my videos.  Geez,
> I got a TON of videos.  If I started watching them 24/7, it would take
> me about 2 years to get through them all.  I'm adding to them quite often. 

You're going off-list for 2 years?

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] Scanners, sane and driver support question

[Wols Lists]

On 12/11/18 08:36, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> I bought an HP_Color (their spelling, not mine!) LaserJet MFP M476dw a
> few years ago. It does duplex printing and scanning and just works. A
> full set of toner cartridges isn't cheap, but they last well.

Looking at the front of mine, it's a Color LaserJet Pro MFP M477fdn.

Nice beast, but a full set of cartridges costs more than the printer
did! I went for that over its cheaper brother because when I factored in
the extra life of the starter cartridges, that seemed to cover the extra
cost.

So far it looks good. Just two niggles - this machine is well
out-of-date so CUPS doesn't seem to know about this model, and for some
reason I've set up scanning for three accounts successfully, but the
fourth just doesn't want to work :-(

Again, went for HP because they seem solid and reliable. Used to have a
Dell, but it was a "get a free printer if you buy 3 sets of cartridges".
Very good deal but the first one broke before it used all its
cartridges, and its replacement (fortunately, used the same cartridges)
broke shortly after it had run through all the cartridges. So I thought
"sod it, go for an HP with maintenance etc".

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Scanners, sane and driver support question

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 10:08:09 +0000, Wols Lists wrote:

> > I bought an HP_Color (their spelling, not mine!) LaserJet MFP M476dw a
> > few years ago. It does duplex printing and scanning and just works. A
> > full set of toner cartridges isn't cheap, but they last well.  
> 
> Looking at the front of mine, it's a Color LaserJet Pro MFP M477fdn.
> 
> Nice beast, but a full set of cartridges costs more than the printer
> did! I went for that over its cheaper brother because when I factored in
> the extra life of the starter cartridges, that seemed to cover the extra
> cost.

I paid abut £130 for a set of 5 cartridges (2 black) but that's the first
set of colour cartridges I've needed. In fact, I think I've only replaced
the yellow one so far (plus a couple of blacks). Most of my printing is
black text with the occasional colour illustration, rather than full
photo-style output.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I'm Bugs Bunny of Borg.  What's up Collective?

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Re: [gentoo-user] Scanners, sane and driver support question

[Mick]

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On Monday, 12 November 2018 10:52:58 GMT Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 10:08:09 +0000, Wols Lists wrote:
> > > I bought an HP_Color (their spelling, not mine!) LaserJet MFP M476dw a
> > > few years ago. It does duplex printing and scanning and just works. A
> > > full set of toner cartridges isn't cheap, but they last well.
> > 
> > Looking at the front of mine, it's a Color LaserJet Pro MFP M477fdn.
> > 
> > Nice beast, but a full set of cartridges costs more than the printer
> > did! I went for that over its cheaper brother because when I factored in
> > the extra life of the starter cartridges, that seemed to cover the extra
> > cost.
> 
> I paid abut £130 for a set of 5 cartridges (2 black) but that's the first
> set of colour cartridges I've needed. In fact, I think I've only replaced
> the yellow one so far (plus a couple of blacks). Most of my printing is
> black text with the occasional colour illustration, rather than full
> photo-style output.

For black & white plus the occasional colour print a laserjet printer is much 
more economical than an inkjet.  However, colour prints are not of the quality 
of an inkjet.  The problem I've had with inkjet is that the ink dries out 
unless used daily, the print heads clog up and as others have mentioned 
replacing them costs more than the printer.  With laserjet the cartidges last 
much longer and do not suffer from all the inkjet problems.

The whole inkjet business model relies on frequent replacement of OEM approved 
ink cartridges.  Dending on the make/model the calibration cycle (every time 
you power on the printer) wastes up to 75% of the ink in it.  There are 
cheaper ink cartridge replacements, but they do not always perform as well.  
You can also buy ink in a bottle and refill the cartridges, but the spray head 
wears out and the quality of the print soon deteriorates.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Scanners, sane and driver support question

[Jack]

On 2018.11.12 05:08, Wols Lists wrote:
> On 12/11/18 08:36, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > I bought an HP_Color (their spelling, not mine!) LaserJet MFP  
> M476dw a
> > few years ago. It does duplex printing and scanning and just works.  
> A
> > full set of toner cartridges isn't cheap, but they last well.
> 
> Looking at the front of mine, it's a Color LaserJet Pro MFP M477fdn.
> 
> Nice beast, but a full set of cartridges costs more than the printer
> did! I went for that over its cheaper brother because when I factored  
> in
> the extra life of the starter cartridges, that seemed to cover the  
> extra
> cost.
> 
> So far it looks good. Just two niggles - this machine is well
> out-of-date so CUPS doesn't seem to know about this model, and for  
> some
> reason I've set up scanning for three accounts successfully, but the
> fourth just doesn't want to work :-(
Have you tried installing hplip?  It seems to have more models covered  
than the basic CUPS or even gutenprint.

> Again, went for HP because they seem solid and reliable. Used to have  
> a
> Dell, but it was a "get a free printer if you buy 3 sets of  
> cartridges".
> Very good deal but the first one broke before it used all its
> cartridges, and its replacement (fortunately, used the same  
> cartridges)
> broke shortly after it had run through all the cartridges. So I  
> thought
> "sod it, go for an HP with maintenance etc".
> 
> Cheers,
> Wol
> 
> 

Re: [gentoo-user] Scanners, sane and driver support question

[Wol's lists]

On 12/11/2018 14:34, Mick wrote:
> The problem I've had with inkjet is that the ink dries out
> unless used daily, the print heads clog up and as others have mentioned
> replacing them costs more than the printer.

Hang on a sec, I was talking about a *LASER*! £350 for the printer, 
£400+ for a set of cartridges.

And my last two lasers were "free with 3 sets of toners" so again the 
toners cost more than the printer :-)

Okay compatible cartridges are a lot cheaper (I could get a complete set 
for about £100), but I suspect my next set of cartridges at least will 
be genuine HP. Provided I use only HP my printer is warrantied for three 
years, and I suspect that by the time I've used that first set of 
replacement cartridges, the three years will be up :-)

(Still, I can't complain, the first laserjet I bought (for a company) 
cost £3000.) I think if you buy genuine manufacturer cartridges, it's 
typical for laser toners to cost similar (or more) than the printer, but 
you do get a lot more pages to a set of toners, than a set of inks.

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Scanners, sane and driver support question

[Dale]

Dale wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> I'm on the hunt for a scanner, flatbed type, and have been browsing Ebay
> and the sane project list of supported devices.  I'm leaning toward HP
> on this.  While looking at say a ScanJet 6200C, it says the drivers are
> no longer maintained but complete.  It leads me to this question.  Does
> that mean they are complete and fixes will no longer be made even if
> something breaks them and they need a little tweaking OR they are
> complete and if a bug pops up, they will be fixed as needed but all
> functions work?  I can see the logic either way on this.  I'm leaning
> toward the side that if something pops up that requires a little
> tweaking, it will be done by someone.  The drivers are just feature
> complete. 
>
> Does anyone else have the same thinking or is buying one of these
> scanners a bad idea if the drivers were to break and the scanner was
> rendered no longer usable? 
>
> Thanks.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-) 
>


I got my HP scanjet 4570c in today.  No wonder the shipping was so
high.  The person I bought it from on Ebay packed it in one large box
and wrapped it in bubble wrap.  It took me a while to find the power
adapter.  While looking for it, I also found the data cable.  Anyway,
I've scanned quite a few pics already and it is doing good.  At first, I
had trouble getting 2400DPI to work.  I scanned quite a few pics at
1200DPI with no issues but decided to try 2400DPI again.  For some
reason, it worked and I scanned a few pics with that setting.  I'm going
back to 1200DPI since 2400GPI is a bit much, takes to long too.  ;-)

If anyone runs up on one of these scanner, it works well.  I haven't
tried the buttons tho.  I've used Xsane, Skanlite and Simple Scan
software.  Each has its own benefits but right now, I'm using Skanlite. 
It is fairly fast and does what I need by default.  Other pics may
require something more complicated but it works well for now.

Thanks to all for the tips and advice.  Now to get a printer.  Plan to
upgrade memory and CPU first tho.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-)