[gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Dale]

Hi,

I got one more hard drive to move over and it is SATA.  Question one, 
can the new mobo's do hot plugging for SATA drives?  I have a plug on 
the front of the case and was wondering since it is on the front if they 
can be hot swapped or if I need to shutdown then hook it up.  If I can 
hot swap, where does the power come from?  I know the drives I put in 
the case have a separate power connection.  How's that work exactly?  Is 
that just for external drives that have their own power?

I have two dries in here already.  One I bought and one that was 
donated.  This is what hdparm reports:

fireball ~ # hdparm -tT /dev/sda

/dev/sda:
  Timing cached reads:   6788 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3395.32 MB/sec
  Timing buffered disk reads:  328 MB in  3.01 seconds = 109.06 MB/sec
fireball ~ # hdparm -tT /dev/sdb

/dev/sdb:
  Timing cached reads:   6736 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3367.58 MB/sec
  Timing buffered disk reads:  324 MB in  3.01 seconds = 107.69 MB/sec
fireball ~ #

Is that about normal?  The mobo is 3Gbs/sec and the drives are too.  
Shouldn't they be faster than that?  I read at one time that SATA is 
basically plug up and it works.  Just checking if there is a setting I 
need to change.

Related to the above, in the BIOS, it is set to Native IDE.  Should that 
be set to AHCI instead?  Is that why it is slower than expected?  Is 
that good to go with Linux as well?  I have this set in the kernel and 
built in as usual:

AHCI SATA support

Let me know if I am somewhat right on anything.  Oh, I decided to name 
the new rig fireball instead of lightening.  ;-)  You may notice that in 
the paste up above.

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Mark Knecht]

On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I got one more hard drive to move over and it is SATA.  Question one, can
> the new mobo's do hot plugging for SATA drives?  I have a plug on the front
> of the case and was wondering since it is on the front if they can be hot
> swapped or if I need to shutdown then hook it up.  If I can hot swap, where
> does the power come from?  I know the drives I put in the case have a
> separate power connection.  How's that work exactly?  Is that just for
> external drives that have their own power?
>
> I have two dries in here already.  One I bought and one that was donated.
>  This is what hdparm reports:
>
> fireball ~ # hdparm -tT /dev/sda
>
> /dev/sda:
>  Timing cached reads:   6788 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3395.32 MB/sec
>  Timing buffered disk reads:  328 MB in  3.01 seconds = 109.06 MB/sec
> fireball ~ # hdparm -tT /dev/sdb
>
> /dev/sdb:
>  Timing cached reads:   6736 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3367.58 MB/sec
>  Timing buffered disk reads:  324 MB in  3.01 seconds = 107.69 MB/sec
> fireball ~ #
>
> Is that about normal?  The mobo is 3Gbs/sec and the drives are too.
>  Shouldn't they be faster than that?  I read at one time that SATA is
> basically plug up and it works.  Just checking if there is a setting I need
> to change.
>
> Related to the above, in the BIOS, it is set to Native IDE.  Should that be
> set to AHCI instead?  Is that why it is slower than expected?  Is that good
> to go with Linux as well?  I have this set in the kernel and built in as
> usual:
>
> AHCI SATA support
>
> Let me know if I am somewhat right on anything.  Oh, I decided to name the
> new rig fireball instead of lightening.  ;-)  You may notice that in the
> paste up above.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Dale

The SATA spec allows for hot plugging, so technically yes, but it also
assumes the drives are in some sort of container so that power and
signals are applied at the right time.

The plug on the front of your case is probably eSATA which looks
similar but has some small changes. What you want to do is figure out
which of your MB SATA ports are eSATA compatible and then run one of
those channels to the connector at the front inside your case.
Typically SATA drives are converted to eSATA external drives by
putting them in a case you can get at most computer shops for < $30 or
so.

Hope this helps,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
>    
>> Hi,
>>
>> I got one more hard drive to move over and it is SATA.  Question one, can
>> the new mobo's do hot plugging for SATA drives?  I have a plug on the front
>> of the case and was wondering since it is on the front if they can be hot
>> swapped or if I need to shutdown then hook it up.  If I can hot swap, where
>> does the power come from?  I know the drives I put in the case have a
>> separate power connection.  How's that work exactly?  Is that just for
>> external drives that have their own power?
>>
>> I have two dries in here already.  One I bought and one that was donated.
>>   This is what hdparm reports:
>>
>> fireball ~ # hdparm -tT /dev/sda
>>
>> /dev/sda:
>>   Timing cached reads:   6788 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3395.32 MB/sec
>>   Timing buffered disk reads:  328 MB in  3.01 seconds = 109.06 MB/sec
>> fireball ~ # hdparm -tT /dev/sdb
>>
>> /dev/sdb:
>>   Timing cached reads:   6736 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3367.58 MB/sec
>>   Timing buffered disk reads:  324 MB in  3.01 seconds = 107.69 MB/sec
>> fireball ~ #
>>
>> Is that about normal?  The mobo is 3Gbs/sec and the drives are too.
>>   Shouldn't they be faster than that?  I read at one time that SATA is
>> basically plug up and it works.  Just checking if there is a setting I need
>> to change.
>>
>> Related to the above, in the BIOS, it is set to Native IDE.  Should that be
>> set to AHCI instead?  Is that why it is slower than expected?  Is that good
>> to go with Linux as well?  I have this set in the kernel and built in as
>> usual:
>>
>> AHCI SATA support
>>
>> Let me know if I am somewhat right on anything.  Oh, I decided to name the
>> new rig fireball instead of lightening.  ;-)  You may notice that in the
>> paste up above.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Dale
>>      
> The SATA spec allows for hot plugging, so technically yes, but it also
> assumes the drives are in some sort of container so that power and
> signals are applied at the right time.
>
> The plug on the front of your case is probably eSATA which looks
> similar but has some small changes. What you want to do is figure out
> which of your MB SATA ports are eSATA compatible and then run one of
> those channels to the connector at the front inside your case.
> Typically SATA drives are converted to eSATA external drives by
> putting them in a case you can get at most computer shops for<  $30 or
> so.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Mark
>
>    

I did hook the eSATA cable that goes to the front of the case to the 
eSATA connector on the mobo.  Thing is, I think they are all eSATA 
compatible tho.  I think that is what I read in the mobo book.  Yea, I 
read the book.  I even followed the instructions for the CPU cooler 
too.  lol

I was thinking it needed some sort of power for the drive tho.  I didn't 
think it was like USB stuff.

Thanks for the info.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Mark Knecht]

On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 9:13 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Knecht wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I got one more hard drive to move over and it is SATA.  Question one, can
>>> the new mobo's do hot plugging for SATA drives?  I have a plug on the
>>> front
>>> of the case and was wondering since it is on the front if they can be hot
>>> swapped or if I need to shutdown then hook it up.  If I can hot swap,
>>> where
>>> does the power come from?  I know the drives I put in the case have a
>>> separate power connection.  How's that work exactly?  Is that just for
>>> external drives that have their own power?
>>>
>>> I have two dries in here already.  One I bought and one that was donated.
>>>  This is what hdparm reports:
>>>
>>> fireball ~ # hdparm -tT /dev/sda
>>>
>>> /dev/sda:
>>>  Timing cached reads:   6788 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3395.32 MB/sec
>>>  Timing buffered disk reads:  328 MB in  3.01 seconds = 109.06 MB/sec
>>> fireball ~ # hdparm -tT /dev/sdb
>>>
>>> /dev/sdb:
>>>  Timing cached reads:   6736 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3367.58 MB/sec
>>>  Timing buffered disk reads:  324 MB in  3.01 seconds = 107.69 MB/sec
>>> fireball ~ #
>>>
>>> Is that about normal?  The mobo is 3Gbs/sec and the drives are too.
>>>  Shouldn't they be faster than that?  I read at one time that SATA is
>>> basically plug up and it works.  Just checking if there is a setting I
>>> need
>>> to change.
>>>
>>> Related to the above, in the BIOS, it is set to Native IDE.  Should that
>>> be
>>> set to AHCI instead?  Is that why it is slower than expected?  Is that
>>> good
>>> to go with Linux as well?  I have this set in the kernel and built in as
>>> usual:
>>>
>>> AHCI SATA support
>>>
>>> Let me know if I am somewhat right on anything.  Oh, I decided to name
>>> the
>>> new rig fireball instead of lightening.  ;-)  You may notice that in the
>>> paste up above.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Dale
>>>
>>
>> The SATA spec allows for hot plugging, so technically yes, but it also
>> assumes the drives are in some sort of container so that power and
>> signals are applied at the right time.
>>
>> The plug on the front of your case is probably eSATA which looks
>> similar but has some small changes. What you want to do is figure out
>> which of your MB SATA ports are eSATA compatible and then run one of
>> those channels to the connector at the front inside your case.
>> Typically SATA drives are converted to eSATA external drives by
>> putting them in a case you can get at most computer shops for<  $30 or
>> so.
>>
>> Hope this helps,
>> Mark
>>
>>
>
> I did hook the eSATA cable that goes to the front of the case to the eSATA
> connector on the mobo.  Thing is, I think they are all eSATA compatible tho.
>  I think that is what I read in the mobo book.  Yea, I read the book.  I
> even followed the instructions for the CPU cooler too.  lol
>
> I was thinking it needed some sort of power for the drive tho.  I didn't
> think it was like USB stuff.
>
> Thanks for the info.
>
> Dale

One of my MBs had 6 SATA connectors but only two were eSATA compatible.

Power for my eSATA drive is supplied by the case.

Hope this helps,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 9:13 AM, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
>    
>> Mark Knecht wrote:
>>      
>>> On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>    wrote:
>>>
>>>        
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I got one more hard drive to move over and it is SATA.  Question one, can
>>>> the new mobo's do hot plugging for SATA drives?  I have a plug on the
>>>> front
>>>> of the case and was wondering since it is on the front if they can be hot
>>>> swapped or if I need to shutdown then hook it up.  If I can hot swap,
>>>> where
>>>> does the power come from?  I know the drives I put in the case have a
>>>> separate power connection.  How's that work exactly?  Is that just for
>>>> external drives that have their own power?
>>>>
>>>> I have two dries in here already.  One I bought and one that was donated.
>>>>   This is what hdparm reports:
>>>>
>>>> fireball ~ # hdparm -tT /dev/sda
>>>>
>>>> /dev/sda:
>>>>   Timing cached reads:   6788 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3395.32 MB/sec
>>>>   Timing buffered disk reads:  328 MB in  3.01 seconds = 109.06 MB/sec
>>>> fireball ~ # hdparm -tT /dev/sdb
>>>>
>>>> /dev/sdb:
>>>>   Timing cached reads:   6736 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3367.58 MB/sec
>>>>   Timing buffered disk reads:  324 MB in  3.01 seconds = 107.69 MB/sec
>>>> fireball ~ #
>>>>
>>>> Is that about normal?  The mobo is 3Gbs/sec and the drives are too.
>>>>   Shouldn't they be faster than that?  I read at one time that SATA is
>>>> basically plug up and it works.  Just checking if there is a setting I
>>>> need
>>>> to change.
>>>>
>>>> Related to the above, in the BIOS, it is set to Native IDE.  Should that
>>>> be
>>>> set to AHCI instead?  Is that why it is slower than expected?  Is that
>>>> good
>>>> to go with Linux as well?  I have this set in the kernel and built in as
>>>> usual:
>>>>
>>>> AHCI SATA support
>>>>
>>>> Let me know if I am somewhat right on anything.  Oh, I decided to name
>>>> the
>>>> new rig fireball instead of lightening.  ;-)  You may notice that in the
>>>> paste up above.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Dale
>>>>
>>>>          
>>> The SATA spec allows for hot plugging, so technically yes, but it also
>>> assumes the drives are in some sort of container so that power and
>>> signals are applied at the right time.
>>>
>>> The plug on the front of your case is probably eSATA which looks
>>> similar but has some small changes. What you want to do is figure out
>>> which of your MB SATA ports are eSATA compatible and then run one of
>>> those channels to the connector at the front inside your case.
>>> Typically SATA drives are converted to eSATA external drives by
>>> putting them in a case you can get at most computer shops for<    $30 or
>>> so.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps,
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>>        
>> I did hook the eSATA cable that goes to the front of the case to the eSATA
>> connector on the mobo.  Thing is, I think they are all eSATA compatible tho.
>>   I think that is what I read in the mobo book.  Yea, I read the book.  I
>> even followed the instructions for the CPU cooler too.  lol
>>
>> I was thinking it needed some sort of power for the drive tho.  I didn't
>> think it was like USB stuff.
>>
>> Thanks for the info.
>>
>> Dale
>>      
> One of my MBs had 6 SATA connectors but only two were eSATA compatible.
>
> Power for my eSATA drive is supplied by the case.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Mark
>
>    

It does.  It was the one on the front that made me curious tho.  I have 
used USB for a while but was curious about how it works on the front 
with no power for it.   I think I'll leave that one alone for now.  May 
get brave another day tho.

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Tuesday 14 December 2010 11:49:00 Dale wrote:
> Mark Knecht wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 9:13 AM, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >> Mark Knecht wrote:
> >>> On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>    wrote:
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>> 
> >>>> I got one more hard drive to move over and it is SATA.  Question
> >>>> one, can the new mobo's do hot plugging for SATA drives?  I have
> >>>> a plug on the front
> >>>> of the case and was wondering since it is on the front if they can
> >>>> be hot swapped or if I need to shutdown then hook it up.  If I
> >>>> can hot swap, where
> >>>> does the power come from?  I know the drives I put in the case
> >>>> have a
> >>>> separate power connection.  How's that work exactly?  Is that just
> >>>> for
> >>>> external drives that have their own power?
> >>>> 
> >>>> I have two dries in here already.  One I bought and one that was
> >>>> donated.
> >>>> 
> >>>>   This is what hdparm reports:
> >>>> fireball ~ # hdparm -tT /dev/sda
> >>>> 
> >>>> /dev/sda:
> >>>>   Timing cached reads:   6788 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3395.32
> >>>>   MB/sec
> >>>>   Timing buffered disk reads:  328 MB in  3.01 seconds = 109.06
> >>>>   MB/sec
> >>>> 
> >>>> fireball ~ # hdparm -tT /dev/sdb
> >>>> 
> >>>> /dev/sdb:
> >>>>   Timing cached reads:   6736 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3367.58
> >>>>   MB/sec
> >>>>   Timing buffered disk reads:  324 MB in  3.01 seconds = 107.69
> >>>>   MB/sec
> >>>> 
> >>>> fireball ~ #
> >>>> 
> >>>> Is that about normal?  The mobo is 3Gbs/sec and the drives are
> >>>> too.
> >>>> 
> >>>>   Shouldn't they be faster than that?  I read at one time that
> >>>>   SATA is
> >>>> 
> >>>> basically plug up and it works.  Just checking if there is a
> >>>> setting I
> >>>> need
> >>>> to change.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Related to the above, in the BIOS, it is set to Native IDE. 
> >>>> Should that be
> >>>> set to AHCI instead?  Is that why it is slower than expected?  Is
> >>>> that
> >>>> good
> >>>> to go with Linux as well?  I have this set in the kernel and built
> >>>> in as usual:
> >>>> 
> >>>> AHCI SATA support
> >>>> 
> >>>> Let me know if I am somewhat right on anything.  Oh, I decided to
> >>>> name
> >>>> the
> >>>> new rig fireball instead of lightening.  ;-)  You may notice that
> >>>> in the paste up above.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Thanks.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Dale
> >>> 
> >>> The SATA spec allows for hot plugging, so technically yes, but it
> >>> also
> >>> assumes the drives are in some sort of container so that power and
> >>> signals are applied at the right time.
> >>> 
> >>> The plug on the front of your case is probably eSATA which looks
> >>> similar but has some small changes. What you want to do is figure
> >>> out
> >>> which of your MB SATA ports are eSATA compatible and then run one of
> >>> those channels to the connector at the front inside your case.
> >>> Typically SATA drives are converted to eSATA external drives by
> >>> putting them in a case you can get at most computer shops for<   
> >>> $30 or so.
> >>> 
> >>> Hope this helps,
> >>> Mark
> >> 
> >> I did hook the eSATA cable that goes to the front of the case to the
> >> eSATA connector on the mobo.  Thing is, I think they are all eSATA
> >> compatible tho.
> >> 
> >>   I think that is what I read in the mobo book.  Yea, I read the
> >>   book.  I
> >> 
> >> even followed the instructions for the CPU cooler too.  lol
> >> 
> >> I was thinking it needed some sort of power for the drive tho.  I
> >> didn't
> >> think it was like USB stuff.
> >> 
> >> Thanks for the info.
> >> 
> >> Dale
> > 
> > One of my MBs had 6 SATA connectors but only two were eSATA compatible.
> > 
> > Power for my eSATA drive is supplied by the case.
> > 
> > Hope this helps,
> > Mark
> 
> It does.  It was the one on the front that made me curious tho.  I have
> used USB for a while but was curious about how it works on the front
> with no power for it.   I think I'll leave that one alone for now.  May
> get brave another day tho.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-)

you seem to have misunderstood Mark. The power is delivered by the harddisks 
case. AKA external power supply. esata has 0 power distribution capabilities.
Always remember: first unplug the sata cable, wait, then power. This allows the 
device to flush the cache.

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Dale]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>
> you seem to have misunderstood Mark. The power is delivered by the harddisks
> case. AKA external power supply. esata has 0 power distribution capabilities.
> Always remember: first unplug the sata cable, wait, then power. This allows the
> device to flush the cache.
>
>    

That was what I understood I just didn't type it in very well.  
Basically, it is not like USB.  The connector only carries data and no 
power for devices.  Since I don't have any external P/Ss then eSATA 
isn't doing me any good right now.  Maybe down the road some day.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Stroller]

On 14/12/2010, at 4:57pm, Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...I got one more hard drive to move over and it is SATA.  Question one, can
>> the new mobo's do hot plugging for SATA drives?
>> ...
> 
> The SATA spec allows for hot plugging, so technically yes ...

My recollection of my understanding (multiple disclaimers) was that SATA *allowed* for SATA hot-plugging but didn't *mandate* it.

If I could have found a SATA motherboard &/or controller with multiple ports that supported SATA hot-plugging then, when I built my storage server, I would have bought that and saved myself quite a bit of money against the hardware RAID card I bought instead. The impression I got when reading, however, was that many SATA ports can be hot-plugged, but their manufacturers don't explicitly state the fact, so one can't be 100% sure it's safe to do so.

Also: learn to snip, guys.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Dale]

Stroller wrote:
> On 14/12/2010, at 4:57pm, Mark Knecht wrote:
>    
>> The SATA spec allows for hot plugging, so technically yes ...
>>      
> My recollection of my understanding (multiple disclaimers) was that SATA *allowed* for SATA hot-plugging but didn't *mandate* it.
>
> If I could have found a SATA motherboard&/or controller with multiple ports that supported SATA hot-plugging then, when I built my storage server, I would have bought that and saved myself quite a bit of money against the hardware RAID card I bought instead. The impression I got when reading, however, was that many SATA ports can be hot-plugged, but their manufacturers don't explicitly state the fact, so one can't be 100% sure it's safe to do so.
>
> Also: learn to snip, guys.
>
> Stroller.
>
>    

According to the mobo manual, if I enable AHCI, it is hot swappable.  I 
just ain't to comfy doing it.  I'd like to see it done with no smoke 
getting out first.

Dale

:-)  :_)

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Wednesday 15 December 2010 05:54:40 Dale wrote:

> 
> According to the mobo manual, if I enable AHCI, it is hot swappable.

and enabling AHCI is the only sane option. So do it.

> I
> just ain't to comfy doing it.  I'd like to see it done with no smoke
> getting out first.

no smoke. Worst case: controller hangs, you have to reboot.

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Mark Knecht]

On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday 15 December 2010 05:54:40 Dale wrote:
>
>>
>> According to the mobo manual, if I enable AHCI, it is hot swappable.
>
> and enabling AHCI is the only sane option. So do it.
>
>> I
>> just ain't to comfy doing it.  I'd like to see it done with no smoke
>> getting out first.
>
> no smoke. Worst case: controller hangs, you have to reboot.
>
>

The worst case is _slightly_ worse than that, but certainly no smoke.
Some systems (my 6 drive RAID compute server for instance) changes
drive mapping between AHCI and compatibility modes so I had to adjust
/etc/fstab. If Dale is using labels of some type he will likely be
better off than I was.

There certainly won't be any harm caused by changing the BIOS setting
to AHCI and trying it out. Reboot and change BIOS back is all he would
have to do in my experience.

- Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com>  wrote:
>    
>> On Wednesday 15 December 2010 05:54:40 Dale wrote:
>>
>>      
>>> According to the mobo manual, if I enable AHCI, it is hot swappable.
>>>        
>> and enabling AHCI is the only sane option. So do it.
>>
>>      
>>> I
>>> just ain't to comfy doing it.  I'd like to see it done with no smoke
>>> getting out first.
>>>        
>> no smoke. Worst case: controller hangs, you have to reboot.
>>
>>
>>      
> The worst case is _slightly_ worse than that, but certainly no smoke.
> Some systems (my 6 drive RAID compute server for instance) changes
> drive mapping between AHCI and compatibility modes so I had to adjust
> /etc/fstab. If Dale is using labels of some type he will likely be
> better off than I was.
>
> There certainly won't be any harm caused by changing the BIOS setting
> to AHCI and trying it out. Reboot and change BIOS back is all he would
> have to do in my experience.
>
> - Mark
>
>    

Are the drives any faster when using AHCI tho?  If the speed is the same 
then I may try it next time I reboot but not real sure why it would 
matter.  I was hoping for something even faster.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Mark Knecht]

On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Knecht wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday 15 December 2010 05:54:40 Dale wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> According to the mobo manual, if I enable AHCI, it is hot swappable.
>>>>
>>>
>>> and enabling AHCI is the only sane option. So do it.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I
>>>> just ain't to comfy doing it.  I'd like to see it done with no smoke
>>>> getting out first.
>>>>
>>>
>>> no smoke. Worst case: controller hangs, you have to reboot.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The worst case is _slightly_ worse than that, but certainly no smoke.
>> Some systems (my 6 drive RAID compute server for instance) changes
>> drive mapping between AHCI and compatibility modes so I had to adjust
>> /etc/fstab. If Dale is using labels of some type he will likely be
>> better off than I was.
>>
>> There certainly won't be any harm caused by changing the BIOS setting
>> to AHCI and trying it out. Reboot and change BIOS back is all he would
>> have to do in my experience.
>>
>> - Mark
>>
>>
>
> Are the drives any faster when using AHCI tho?  If the speed is the same
> then I may try it next time I reboot but not real sure why it would matter.
>  I was hoping for something even faster.
>
> Dale

I suspect they might be faster but you'd have to benchmark them
yourself to find out. I never did that or don't remember the results
if I did.

- Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Wednesday 15 December 2010 12:24:58 Dale wrote:
> Mark Knecht wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> > 
> > <volkerarmin@googlemail.com>  wrote:
> >> On Wednesday 15 December 2010 05:54:40 Dale wrote:
> >>> According to the mobo manual, if I enable AHCI, it is hot swappable.
> >> 
> >> and enabling AHCI is the only sane option. So do it.
> >> 
> >>> I
> >>> just ain't to comfy doing it.  I'd like to see it done with no smoke
> >>> getting out first.
> >> 
> >> no smoke. Worst case: controller hangs, you have to reboot.
> > 
> > The worst case is _slightly_ worse than that, but certainly no smoke.
> > Some systems (my 6 drive RAID compute server for instance) changes
> > drive mapping between AHCI and compatibility modes so I had to adjust
> > /etc/fstab. If Dale is using labels of some type he will likely be
> > better off than I was.
> > 
> > There certainly won't be any harm caused by changing the BIOS setting
> > to AHCI and trying it out. Reboot and change BIOS back is all he would
> > have to do in my experience.
> > 
> > - Mark
> 
> Are the drives any faster when using AHCI tho?  If the speed is the same
> then I may try it next time I reboot but not real sure why it would
> matter.  I was hoping for something even faster.

ahci is robust, in case of an error you don't have to wait for the 30-ide-
timeout. NCQ can speed up some stuff. AHCI is just the right thing to do.

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Dale]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Wednesday 15 December 2010 12:24:58 Dale wrote:
>    
>> Mark Knecht wrote:
>>      
>>> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>>>
>>> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com>   wrote:
>>>        
>>>> On Wednesday 15 December 2010 05:54:40 Dale wrote:
>>>>          
>>>>> According to the mobo manual, if I enable AHCI, it is hot swappable.
>>>>>            
>>>> and enabling AHCI is the only sane option. So do it.
>>>>
>>>>          
>>>>> I
>>>>> just ain't to comfy doing it.  I'd like to see it done with no smoke
>>>>> getting out first.
>>>>>            
>>>> no smoke. Worst case: controller hangs, you have to reboot.
>>>>          
>>> The worst case is _slightly_ worse than that, but certainly no smoke.
>>> Some systems (my 6 drive RAID compute server for instance) changes
>>> drive mapping between AHCI and compatibility modes so I had to adjust
>>> /etc/fstab. If Dale is using labels of some type he will likely be
>>> better off than I was.
>>>
>>> There certainly won't be any harm caused by changing the BIOS setting
>>> to AHCI and trying it out. Reboot and change BIOS back is all he would
>>> have to do in my experience.
>>>
>>> - Mark
>>>        
>> Are the drives any faster when using AHCI tho?  If the speed is the same
>> then I may try it next time I reboot but not real sure why it would
>> matter.  I was hoping for something even faster.
>>      
> ahci is robust, in case of an error you don't have to wait for the 30-ide-
> timeout. NCQ can speed up some stuff. AHCI is just the right thing to do.
>
>    

I had to reboot to plug the UPS up to my serial port so I switched it.  
I think this is about the same as I got last time so not really any 
faster or anything.  This is the results:

fireball ~ # hdparm -Tt /dev/sdb

/dev/sdb:
  Timing cached reads:   7932 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3967.66 MB/sec
  Timing buffered disk reads:  328 MB in  3.00 seconds = 109.31 MB/sec
fireball ~ #

So, at least we know it doesn't make much difference on this rig anyway.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Andrea Conti]

>> The SATA spec allows for hot plugging, so technically yes ...
> My recollection of my understanding (multiple disclaimers) was that SATA *allowed* for SATA hot-plugging but didn't *mandate* it.

a good summary of the hardware/driver situation wrt hotplugging can be 
found here:

https://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/SATA_hardware_features

Short version: most controllers nowadays support hotplug, provided they 
are not operated in compatibility ("IDE") mode.

We have quite a number of software RAID setups with SATA disks in 
hot-swap backplanes; so far we found that hotplug works quite reliably 
on Intel (ICH9R/ICH10R), AMD (SB700/SB800) and Silicon Image (sil3132) 
controllers.

andrea

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Stroller]

On 15/12/2010, at 4:59pm, Andrea Conti wrote:
>>> The SATA spec allows for hot plugging, so technically yes ...
>> My recollection of my understanding (multiple disclaimers) was that SATA *allowed* for SATA hot-plugging but didn't *mandate* it.
> 
> ...
> We have quite a number of software RAID setups with SATA disks in hot-swap backplanes; so far we found that hotplug works quite reliably on Intel (ICH9R/ICH10R), AMD (SB700/SB800) and Silicon Image (sil3132) controllers.

That is *extremely* helpful, thank you.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Helmut Jarausch]

On 12/14/10 17:42:40, Dale wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I got one more hard drive to move over and it is SATA.  Question one, 
> can the new mobo's do hot plugging for SATA drives?  I have a plug on 
> the front of the case and was wondering since it is on the front if
> they 

If this is an eSATA connection then it works just fine out of the box.
It's helpful to write some UDEV rule e.g. in /etc/udev/rules.d/10-
local.rules, e.g.
SUBSYSTEMS=="scsi", ATTRS{model}=="WDC WD10EADS-65L", SYMLINK="WDExt%n"
which generates the /dev/WDExt ... /devWDExt4 devices if there are
e.g. 4 partitions on that drive. Thus you can write a fixed entry
in your fstab using these devices.

> can be hot swapped or if I need to shutdown then hook it up.  If I 
> can
> 
> hot swap, where does the power come from?  I know the drives I put in 
> the case have a separate power connection.  How's that work exactly? 
> Is 
> that just for external drives that have their own power?
> 
> I have two dries in here already.  One I bought and one that was 
> donated.  This is what hdparm reports:
> 
> fireball ~ # hdparm -tT /dev/sda
> 
> /dev/sda:
>   Timing cached reads:   6788 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3395.32 MB/sec
>   Timing buffered disk reads:  328 MB in  3.01 seconds = 109.06 MB/
> sec
> fireball ~ # hdparm -tT /dev/sdb
> 
> /dev/sdb:
>   Timing cached reads:   6736 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3367.58 MB/sec
>   Timing buffered disk reads:  324 MB in  3.01 seconds = 107.69 MB/
> sec

Exactly the same here, the external SATA drive is even slower
/dev/sdd:
 Timing cached reads:   7498 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3750.67 MB/sec
 Timing buffered disk reads: 262 MB in  3.02 seconds =  86.70 MB/sec

> fireball ~ #
> 
> Is that about normal?  The mobo is 3Gbs/sec and the drives are too.  
> Shouldn't they be faster than that?  I read at one time that SATA is 
> basically plug up and it works.  Just checking if there is a setting 
> I
> 
> need to change.
> 
> Related to the above, in the BIOS, it is set to Native IDE.  Should
> that 
> be set to AHCI instead?  Is that why it is slower than expected?  Is 
> that good to go with Linux as well?  I have this set in the kernel 
> and
> 
> built in as usual:
> 
> AHCI SATA support

I'have configured my BIOS like that. It's working just fine.

> 
> Let me know if I am somewhat right on anything.  Oh, I decided to 
> name
> 
> the new rig fireball instead of lightening.  ;-)  You may notice that
> in 
> the paste up above.
> 
Helmut.

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Dale]

Helmut Jarausch wrote:
> On 12/14/10 17:42:40, Dale wrote:
>    
>> Hi,
>>
>> I got one more hard drive to move over and it is SATA.  Question one,
>> can the new mobo's do hot plugging for SATA drives?  I have a plug on
>> the front of the case and was wondering since it is on the front if
>> they
>>      
> If this is an eSATA connection then it works just fine out of the box.
> It's helpful to write some UDEV rule e.g. in /etc/udev/rules.d/10-
> local.rules, e.g.
> SUBSYSTEMS=="scsi", ATTRS{model}=="WDC WD10EADS-65L", SYMLINK="WDExt%n"
> which generates the /dev/WDExt ... /devWDExt4 devices if there are
> e.g. 4 partitions on that drive. Thus you can write a fixed entry
> in your fstab using these devices.
>
>    

So this is doable then.  Interesting.  ^_^

>> can be hot swapped or if I need to shutdown then hook it up.  If I
>> can
>>
>> hot swap, where does the power come from?  I know the drives I put in
>> the case have a separate power connection.  How's that work exactly?
>> Is
>> that just for external drives that have their own power?
>>
>> I have two dries in here already.  One I bought and one that was
>> donated.  This is what hdparm reports:
>>
>> fireball ~ # hdparm -tT /dev/sda
>>
>> /dev/sda:
>>    Timing cached reads:   6788 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3395.32 MB/sec
>>    Timing buffered disk reads:  328 MB in  3.01 seconds = 109.06 MB/
>> sec
>> fireball ~ # hdparm -tT /dev/sdb
>>
>> /dev/sdb:
>>    Timing cached reads:   6736 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3367.58 MB/sec
>>    Timing buffered disk reads:  324 MB in  3.01 seconds = 107.69 MB/
>> sec
>>      
> Exactly the same here, the external SATA drive is even slower
> /dev/sdd:
>   Timing cached reads:   7498 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3750.67 MB/sec
>   Timing buffered disk reads: 262 MB in  3.02 seconds =  86.70 MB/sec
>
>    
>> fireball ~ #
>>
>> Is that about normal?  The mobo is 3Gbs/sec and the drives are too.
>> Shouldn't they be faster than that?  I read at one time that SATA is
>> basically plug up and it works.  Just checking if there is a setting
>> I
>>
>> need to change.
>>
>> Related to the above, in the BIOS, it is set to Native IDE.  Should
>> that
>> be set to AHCI instead?  Is that why it is slower than expected?  Is
>> that good to go with Linux as well?  I have this set in the kernel
>> and
>>
>> built in as usual:
>>
>> AHCI SATA support
>>      
> I'have configured my BIOS like that. It's working just fine.
>
>    
>> Let me know if I am somewhat right on anything.  Oh, I decided to
>> name
>>
>> the new rig fireball instead of lightening.  ;-)  You may notice that
>> in
>> the paste up above.
>>
>>      
> Helmut.
>
>    

Well, according to the mobo book, AHCI "enables advanced SATA 
features".  Me, I read that and I think that it may mean faster.  It 
also says it is set to native by default for OS's that can handle only 
native mode controllers.  I just don't want to try it without making 
sure it is not going to lead to some sort of file system problems or 
something.  I did some Googling but most of the stuff I find is from 
years ago and things have changed a lot since then.

Thanks for the info.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[meino.cramer]

Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> [10-12-14 18:28]:
> Helmut Jarausch wrote:
> >On 12/14/10 17:42:40, Dale wrote:
> >   
> >>Hi,
> >>
> >>I got one more hard drive to move over and it is SATA.  Question one,
> >>can the new mobo's do hot plugging for SATA drives?  I have a plug on
> >>the front of the case and was wondering since it is on the front if
> >>they
> >>     
> >If this is an eSATA connection then it works just fine out of the box.
> >It's helpful to write some UDEV rule e.g. in /etc/udev/rules.d/10-
> >local.rules, e.g.
> >SUBSYSTEMS=="scsi", ATTRS{model}=="WDC WD10EADS-65L", 
> >SYMLINK="WDExt%n"
> >which generates the /dev/WDExt ... /devWDExt4 devices if there are
> >e.g. 4 partitions on that drive. Thus you can write a fixed entry
> >in your fstab using these devices.
> >
> >   
> 
> So this is doable then.  Interesting.  ^_^
> 
> >>can be hot swapped or if I need to shutdown then hook it up.  If I
> >>can
> >>
> >>hot swap, where does the power come from?  I know the drives I put in
> >>the case have a separate power connection.  How's that work exactly?
> >>Is
> >>that just for external drives that have their own power?
> >>
> >>I have two dries in here already.  One I bought and one that was
> >>donated.  This is what hdparm reports:
> >>
> >>fireball ~ # hdparm -tT /dev/sda
> >>
> >>/dev/sda:
> >>   Timing cached reads:   6788 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3395.32 MB/sec
> >>   Timing buffered disk reads:  328 MB in  3.01 seconds = 109.06 MB/
> >>sec
> >>fireball ~ # hdparm -tT /dev/sdb
> >>
> >>/dev/sdb:
> >>   Timing cached reads:   6736 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3367.58 MB/sec
> >>   Timing buffered disk reads:  324 MB in  3.01 seconds = 107.69 MB/
> >>sec
> >>     
> >Exactly the same here, the external SATA drive is even slower
> >/dev/sdd:
> >  Timing cached reads:   7498 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3750.67 MB/sec
> >  Timing buffered disk reads: 262 MB in  3.02 seconds =  86.70 MB/sec
> >
> >   
> >>fireball ~ #
> >>
> >>Is that about normal?  The mobo is 3Gbs/sec and the drives are too.
> >>Shouldn't they be faster than that?  I read at one time that SATA is
> >>basically plug up and it works.  Just checking if there is a setting
> >>I
> >>
> >>need to change.
> >>
> >>Related to the above, in the BIOS, it is set to Native IDE.  Should
> >>that
> >>be set to AHCI instead?  Is that why it is slower than expected?  Is
> >>that good to go with Linux as well?  I have this set in the kernel
> >>and
> >>
> >>built in as usual:
> >>
> >>AHCI SATA support
> >>     
> >I'have configured my BIOS like that. It's working just fine.
> >
> >   
> >>Let me know if I am somewhat right on anything.  Oh, I decided to
> >>name
> >>
> >>the new rig fireball instead of lightening.  ;-)  You may notice that
> >>in
> >>the paste up above.
> >>
> >>     
> >Helmut.
> >
> >   
> 
> Well, according to the mobo book, AHCI "enables advanced SATA 
> features".  Me, I read that and I think that it may mean faster.  It 
> also says it is set to native by default for OS's that can handle only 
> native mode controllers.  I just don't want to try it without making 
> sure it is not going to lead to some sort of file system problems or 
> something.  I did some Googling but most of the stuff I find is from 
> years ago and things have changed a lot since then.
> 
> Thanks for the info.
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-)
> 


In the linux kernel configuration you can set AHCI for Sata...
But whether this technically option is addtionally a wise one?
I dont know...

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Dale]

meino.cramer@gmx.de wrote:
> In the linux kernel configuration you can set AHCI for Sata...
> But whether this technically option is addtionally a wise one?
> I dont know...
>
>    

I better leave hot pluggin to the USB stuff.  I don't want to smoke my 
new rig and have to down grade.  :-(

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Mark Knecht]

On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 9:20 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
>
> Well, according to the mobo book, AHCI "enables advanced SATA features".
>  Me, I read that and I think that it may mean faster.  It also says it is
> set to native by default for OS's that can handle only native mode
> controllers.  I just don't want to try it without making sure it is not
> going to lead to some sort of file system problems or something.  I did some
> Googling but most of the stuff I find is from years ago and things have
> changed a lot since then.
>
> Thanks for the info.
>
> Dale

In my experience the Intel BIOS stuff effected booting from internal
SATA drives. If it worked it didn't create any other problems that I
saw.

IIRC there were some kernel driver options to get the right things
built in which would of course be required to boot.

Hope this helps,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[meino.cramer]

Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> [10-12-14 17:48]:
> Hi,
> 
> I got one more hard drive to move over and it is SATA.  Question one, 
> can the new mobo's do hot plugging for SATA drives?  I have a plug on 
> the front of the case and was wondering since it is on the front if 
> they can be hot swapped or if I need to shutdown then hook it up.  If I 
> can hot swap, where does the power come from?  I know the drives I put 
> in the case have a separate power connection.  How's that work exactly? 
>  Is that just for external drives that have their own power?
> 
> I have two dries in here already.  One I bought and one that was 
> donated.  This is what hdparm reports:
> 
> fireball ~ # hdparm -tT /dev/sda
> 
> /dev/sda:
>  Timing cached reads:   6788 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3395.32 MB/sec
>  Timing buffered disk reads:  328 MB in  3.01 seconds = 109.06 MB/sec
> fireball ~ # hdparm -tT /dev/sdb
> 
> /dev/sdb:
>  Timing cached reads:   6736 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3367.58 MB/sec
>  Timing buffered disk reads:  324 MB in  3.01 seconds = 107.69 MB/sec
> fireball ~ #
> 
> Is that about normal?  The mobo is 3Gbs/sec and the drives are too.  
> Shouldn't they be faster than that?  I read at one time that SATA is 
> basically plug up and it works.  Just checking if there is a setting I 
> need to change.
> 
> Related to the above, in the BIOS, it is set to Native IDE.  Should 
> that be set to AHCI instead?  Is that why it is slower than expected?  
> Is that good to go with Linux as well?  I have this set in the kernel 
> and built in as usual:
> 
> AHCI SATA support
> 
> Let me know if I am somewhat right on anything.  Oh, I decided to name 
> the new rig fireball instead of lightening.  ;-)  You may notice that 
> in the paste up above.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-)
> 

Hi Dale,

as I know, the hd hardware can't nearly as fast as the bus speed
regardless whether it is 6GB/s or 3GB/s.
Quickly doing the same as you on my harddisk gave:

/dev/sda:
 Timing cached reads:   6726 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3364.06 MB/sec
 Timing buffered disk reads: 318 MB in  3.00 seconds = 105.93 MB/sec

The speeds of 6 GB/s or 3GB/s are only reached, when reading data
directly from the hd cache.

I dont know, what motherboard you use. But the settings you describe
seem to be identical to mine.

Important is: 
In the BIOS go to the hd section and look, what the BIOS think the
speed of your hd is (3 GB/s or 6GB/s). When found directly set you
SATA chip to that speed. It is recommended to do so by the help of
text of my BIOS. I have a 3GB/s disk. And yes, IDE is ok.

Here you can find explanations about AHCI vs. IDE sata mode.
http://www.techarp.com/showfreebog.aspx?lang=0&bogno=316

On my board (ASUS Crosshair IV Formula) it was said, that AHCI is
slower than IDE, but (!) is not due to IDE vs. AHCI but to a
limitation of the chip.

Look at the benchmarks above: There no place to go faster than that.
3/6 GB/s on cach read are standard compliant and ~100 MB/s is the
limitation of hardware normal people like you and me can pay for.

Plug on the front:
This seems to be E-Sata jack AND SHOULD BE CONNECTED INTERNALLY ONLY
TO AN E-SATA (not SATA) JACK ON THE MOBO.

In unmounted status: Yes it should be hotpluggable as USB. BUT dont
connect the E-SATA jack of the case to a normal SATA jack on the
board!

E-SATA != SATA !!!!

HTH
mcc

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Dale]

meino.cramer@gmx.de wrote:
> Hi Dale,
>
> as I know, the hd hardware can't nearly as fast as the bus speed
> regardless whether it is 6GB/s or 3GB/s.
> Quickly doing the same as you on my harddisk gave:
>
> /dev/sda:
>   Timing cached reads:   6726 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3364.06 MB/sec
>   Timing buffered disk reads: 318 MB in  3.00 seconds = 105.93 MB/sec
>
> The speeds of 6 GB/s or 3GB/s are only reached, when reading data
> directly from the hd cache.
>
> I dont know, what motherboard you use. But the settings you describe
> seem to be identical to mine.
>
> Important is:
> In the BIOS go to the hd section and look, what the BIOS think the
> speed of your hd is (3 GB/s or 6GB/s). When found directly set you
> SATA chip to that speed. It is recommended to do so by the help of
> text of my BIOS. I have a 3GB/s disk. And yes, IDE is ok.
>
> Here you can find explanations about AHCI vs. IDE sata mode.
> http://www.techarp.com/showfreebog.aspx?lang=0&bogno=316
>
> On my board (ASUS Crosshair IV Formula) it was said, that AHCI is
> slower than IDE, but (!) is not due to IDE vs. AHCI but to a
> limitation of the chip.
>
> Look at the benchmarks above: There no place to go faster than that.
> 3/6 GB/s on cach read are standard compliant and ~100 MB/s is the
> limitation of hardware normal people like you and me can pay for.
>
> Plug on the front:
> This seems to be E-Sata jack AND SHOULD BE CONNECTED INTERNALLY ONLY
> TO AN E-SATA (not SATA) JACK ON THE MOBO.
>
> In unmounted status: Yes it should be hotpluggable as USB. BUT dont
> connect the E-SATA jack of the case to a normal SATA jack on the
> board!
>
> E-SATA != SATA !!!!
>
> HTH
> mcc
>
>    

Sounds like I am normal on speed.  Still wonder why they call it 
"advanced" tho.  Hype maybe?  ;-)

I noticed when I did some searching that the eSATA connectors have sort 
of a L shape to them.  All the SATA connectors have a L shape to them on 
my mobo.

I think for safety's sake, I think I will shutdown first.  The biggest 
reason I was wondering is because it is on the front next to the USB 
plugs too.  Just made me wonder.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[meino.cramer]

Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> [10-12-14 18:56]:
> meino.cramer@gmx.de wrote:
> >Hi Dale,
> >
> >as I know, the hd hardware can't nearly as fast as the bus speed
> >regardless whether it is 6GB/s or 3GB/s.
> >Quickly doing the same as you on my harddisk gave:
> >
> >/dev/sda:
> >  Timing cached reads:   6726 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3364.06 MB/sec
> >  Timing buffered disk reads: 318 MB in  3.00 seconds = 105.93 MB/sec
> >
> >The speeds of 6 GB/s or 3GB/s are only reached, when reading data
> >directly from the hd cache.
> >
> >I dont know, what motherboard you use. But the settings you describe
> >seem to be identical to mine.
> >
> >Important is:
> >In the BIOS go to the hd section and look, what the BIOS think the
> >speed of your hd is (3 GB/s or 6GB/s). When found directly set you
> >SATA chip to that speed. It is recommended to do so by the help of
> >text of my BIOS. I have a 3GB/s disk. And yes, IDE is ok.
> >
> >Here you can find explanations about AHCI vs. IDE sata mode.
> >http://www.techarp.com/showfreebog.aspx?lang=0&bogno=316
> >
> >On my board (ASUS Crosshair IV Formula) it was said, that AHCI is
> >slower than IDE, but (!) is not due to IDE vs. AHCI but to a
> >limitation of the chip.
> >
> >Look at the benchmarks above: There no place to go faster than that.
> >3/6 GB/s on cach read are standard compliant and ~100 MB/s is the
> >limitation of hardware normal people like you and me can pay for.
> >
> >Plug on the front:
> >This seems to be E-Sata jack AND SHOULD BE CONNECTED INTERNALLY ONLY
> >TO AN E-SATA (not SATA) JACK ON THE MOBO.
> >
> >In unmounted status: Yes it should be hotpluggable as USB. BUT dont
> >connect the E-SATA jack of the case to a normal SATA jack on the
> >board!
> >
> >E-SATA != SATA !!!!
> >
> >HTH
> >mcc
> >
> >   
> 
> Sounds like I am normal on speed.  Still wonder why they call it 
> "advanced" tho.  Hype maybe?  ;-)
> 
> I noticed when I did some searching that the eSATA connectors have sort 
> of a L shape to them.  All the SATA connectors have a L shape to them 
> on my mobo.
> 
> I think for safety's sake, I think I will shutdown first.  The biggest 
> reason I was wondering is because it is on the front next to the USB 
> plugs too.  Just made me wonder.
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-)
> 

You know AGP (_Advanced_ graphics port), Dale?
You know, why _this_ is "advanced"?

Look at USB 2.0?

Names like "Full speed" and "High speed" are only sands in the eyes of
the others.

Names only names...

Why they increase SATA to currently 6GB/s to read from...guess... the
RAM of a hd?

Ok, I begin to become cycnic.... ;)

Be the boot be with you!
Use the source, Luke!
And: No, I am _NOT_ you father... ;)

mcc

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Jarry]

On 14. 12. 2010 19:28, meino.cramer@gmx.de wrote:

> You know AGP (_Advanced_ graphics port), Dale?
> You know, why _this_ is "advanced"?

Because it is "Accelerated Graphics Port"...

Jarry


-- 
_______________________________________________________________
This mailbox accepts e-mails only from selected mailing-lists!
Everything else is considered to be spam and therefore deleted.

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[meino.cramer]

Jarry <mr.jarry@gmail.com> [10-12-14 19:44]:
> On 14. 12. 2010 19:28, meino.cramer@gmx.de wrote:
> 
> >You know AGP (_Advanced_ graphics port), Dale?
> >You know, why _this_ is "advanced"?
> 
> Because it is "Accelerated Graphics Port"...
> 
> Jarry
> 
> 
> -- 
> _______________________________________________________________
> This mailbox accepts e-mails only from selected mailing-lists!
> Everything else is considered to be spam and therefore deleted.
> 

Hi jarry,


ok...this candidate wins 1000 points ... ;)

Damn...now the joke is somehow corrupted...

But thanks for clearify this !!! :))

mcc

Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[James Wall]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 12/14/10 12:28, meino.cramer@gmx.de wrote:
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> [10-12-14 18:56]:
>> meino.cramer@gmx.de wrote:
>>> Hi Dale,
>>>
>>> as I know, the hd hardware can't nearly as fast as the bus speed
>>> regardless whether it is 6GB/s or 3GB/s.
>>> Quickly doing the same as you on my harddisk gave:
>>>
>>> /dev/sda:
>>>  Timing cached reads:   6726 MB in  2.00 seconds = 3364.06 MB/sec
>>>  Timing buffered disk reads: 318 MB in  3.00 seconds = 105.93 MB/sec
>>>
>>> The speeds of 6 GB/s or 3GB/s are only reached, when reading data
>>> directly from the hd cache.
>>>
>>> I dont know, what motherboard you use. But the settings you describe
>>> seem to be identical to mine.
>>>
>>> Important is:
>>> In the BIOS go to the hd section and look, what the BIOS think the
>>> speed of your hd is (3 GB/s or 6GB/s). When found directly set you
>>> SATA chip to that speed. It is recommended to do so by the help of
>>> text of my BIOS. I have a 3GB/s disk. And yes, IDE is ok.
>>>
>>> Here you can find explanations about AHCI vs. IDE sata mode.
>>> http://www.techarp.com/showfreebog.aspx?lang=0&bogno=316
>>>
>>> On my board (ASUS Crosshair IV Formula) it was said, that AHCI is
>>> slower than IDE, but (!) is not due to IDE vs. AHCI but to a
>>> limitation of the chip.
>>>
>>> Look at the benchmarks above: There no place to go faster than that.
>>> 3/6 GB/s on cach read are standard compliant and ~100 MB/s is the
>>> limitation of hardware normal people like you and me can pay for.
>>>
>>> Plug on the front:
>>> This seems to be E-Sata jack AND SHOULD BE CONNECTED INTERNALLY ONLY
>>> TO AN E-SATA (not SATA) JACK ON THE MOBO.
>>>
>>> In unmounted status: Yes it should be hotpluggable as USB. BUT dont
>>> connect the E-SATA jack of the case to a normal SATA jack on the
>>> board!
>>>
>>> E-SATA != SATA !!!!
>>>
>>> HTH
>>> mcc
>>>
>>>   
>>
>> Sounds like I am normal on speed.  Still wonder why they call it 
>> "advanced" tho.  Hype maybe?  ;-)
>>
>> I noticed when I did some searching that the eSATA connectors have sort 
>> of a L shape to them.  All the SATA connectors have a L shape to them 
>> on my mobo.
>>
>> I think for safety's sake, I think I will shutdown first.  The biggest 
>> reason I was wondering is because it is on the front next to the USB 
>> plugs too.  Just made me wonder.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-)
>>
> 
> You know AGP (_Advanced_ graphics port), Dale?
> You know, why _this_ is "advanced"?
> 
> Look at USB 2.0?
> 
> Names like "Full speed" and "High speed" are only sands in the eyes of
> the others.
> 
> Names only names...
> 
> Why they increase SATA to currently 6GB/s to read from...guess... the
> RAM of a hd?
Solid State drives can max out a 3Gb/s connection because it is not a
mechanical drive where the sector is moving under the head of a drive.
the Solid state drive just sends the data out instantly to get to the CPU.
> 
> Ok, I begin to become cycnic.... ;)
> 
> Be the boot be with you!
> Use the source, Luke!
> And: No, I am _NOT_ you father... ;)
> 
> mcc
- --
No trees were harmed in the sending of this message. However, a large
number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Andrea Conti]

> E-SATA != SATA !!!!

Nah. They are *exactly* the same.

Evidently someone realized that the original SATA connector is way too 
fragile to be regularly used to plug/unplug a cable by hand, so they 
engineered in some features which make it a bit more resilient. But 
apart from the shape of the connector there is really no difference.

(Well, in the old days of SATAI not many chipsets supported hotplug; 
often boards came with a couple of eSATA ports wired to a separate chip 
with hotplug support. But on virtually all new boards all ports support 
hotplug).

andrea

[gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-12-15, Andrea Conti <alyf@alyf.net> wrote:
>> E-SATA != SATA !!!!
>
> Nah. They are *exactly* the same.

Not according to Wikipedia -- it says the electrical specs for eSATA
are different than the specs for "normal" SATA.  I've seen that stated
in other places as well.  I don't have copies of the two specs, so I
can't say I'm 100%, but I believe the Wikipedia page.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I'm a fuschia bowling
                                  at               ball somewhere in Brittany
                              gmail.com            

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Mark Knecht]

On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Grant Edwards
<grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2010-12-15, Andrea Conti <alyf@alyf.net> wrote:
>>> E-SATA != SATA !!!!
>>
>> Nah. They are *exactly* the same.
>
> Not according to Wikipedia -- it says the electrical specs for eSATA
> are different than the specs for "normal" SATA.  I've seen that stated
> in other places as well.  I don't have copies of the two specs, so I
> can't say I'm 100%, but I believe the Wikipedia page.
>

It is true, and has to be for cost reasons.

1) Internal SATA drives are at the end of a single cable and don't
require hot-plugging logic be built into the SATA port driver on the
SATA controller because they are always powered up. (They are inside
the case)

2) External SATA drives are at the end of 1) an internal cable, 2) a
case SATA-eSATA connector, and 3) an external eSATA cable along with
whatever is inside the eSATA case. eSATA compatible ports must include
hot-plugging logic.

For cost/simplicity reasons chip manufacturers are free to remove
hot-plugging logic from any port for which they don't intend eSATA
compatibility.

The logic and timing of the signals on SATA and eSATA cables is
(TTBOMK) intended to be identical. What those signals look like at
different places in the cable chain will be different.

- Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Wednesday 15 December 2010 11:58:13 Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Grant Edwards
> 
> <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 2010-12-15, Andrea Conti <alyf@alyf.net> wrote:
> >>> E-SATA != SATA !!!!
> >> 
> >> Nah. They are *exactly* the same.
> > 
> > Not according to Wikipedia -- it says the electrical specs for eSATA
> > are different than the specs for "normal" SATA.  I've seen that stated
> > in other places as well.  I don't have copies of the two specs, so I
> > can't say I'm 100%, but I believe the Wikipedia page.
> 
> It is true, and has to be for cost reasons.
> 
> 1) Internal SATA drives are at the end of a single cable and don't
> require hot-plugging logic be built into the SATA port driver on the
> SATA controller because they are always powered up. (They are inside
> the case)
> 
> 2) External SATA drives are at the end of 1) an internal cable, 2) a
> case SATA-eSATA connector, and 3) an external eSATA cable along with
> whatever is inside the eSATA case. eSATA compatible ports must include
> hot-plugging logic.
> 
> For cost/simplicity reasons chip manufacturers are free to remove
> hot-plugging logic from any port for which they don't intend eSATA
> compatibility.
> 
> The logic and timing of the signals on SATA and eSATA cables is
> (TTBOMK) intended to be identical. What those signals look like at
> different places in the cable chain will be different.
> 
> - Mark

and you have sources to support that claims and did not just make it up.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Mark Knecht]

On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
>>
>> The logic and timing of the signals on SATA and eSATA cables is
>> (TTBOMK) intended to be identical. What those signals look like at
>> different places in the cable chain will be different.
>>
>> - Mark
>
> and you have sources to support that claims and did not just make it up.
>
>

Ouch! Man, you like to put people in their place, don't you! :-)


How about:

http://www.serialata.org/technology/why_sata.asp
http://www.serialata.org/technology/esata.asp

Wikipedia is an interesting place to go for information but the
organization that is responsible for the spec itself is better.

SATA is currently defined as supporting up to 6Gb/S (now Gen3) while
eSATA supports up to 1.5Gb/S (Gen1) or 3Gb/S (Gen2). Internal cables
have highly limited lengths. External cables can be much longer. (2
meters)

TTBOMK no one on this list is using a single drive that would exceed
1.5Gb/S (roughly 187MB/S) so it's unlikely anyone would see a
difference in speed, but that doesn't mean the specs are the same.

The 'logic' of what's on the cable during data transferred is
identical. The _rate_ at which it's transferred on eSATA is slower and
the electrical levels are modified to provide more reliability across
longer cables and reflections at cable/connector boundaries.

I trust that you can read the Serial-ATA org web site yourself to get
properly educated on the matter.

Cheers,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Wednesday 15 December 2010 12:41:51 Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> <SNIP>
> 
> >> The logic and timing of the signals on SATA and eSATA cables is
> >> (TTBOMK) intended to be identical. What those signals look like at
> >> different places in the cable chain will be different.
> >> 
> >> - Mark
> > 
> > and you have sources to support that claims and did not just make it up.
> 
> Ouch! Man, you like to put people in their place, don't you! :-)
> 
> 
> How about:
> 
> http://www.serialata.org/technology/why_sata.asp
> http://www.serialata.org/technology/esata.asp
> 
> Wikipedia is an interesting place to go for information but the
> organization that is responsible for the spec itself is better.
> 
> SATA is currently defined as supporting up to 6Gb/S (now Gen3) while
> eSATA supports up to 1.5Gb/S (Gen1) or 3Gb/S (Gen2). Internal cables
> have highly limited lengths. External cables can be much longer. (2
> meters)
> 
> TTBOMK no one on this list is using a single drive that would exceed
> 1.5Gb/S (roughly 187MB/S) so it's unlikely anyone would see a
> difference in speed, but that doesn't mean the specs are the same.
> 
> The 'logic' of what's on the cable during data transferred is
> identical. The _rate_ at which it's transferred on eSATA is slower and
> the electrical levels are modified to provide more reliability across
> longer cables and reflections at cable/connector boundaries.
> 
> I trust that you can read the Serial-ATA org web site yourself to get
> properly educated on the matter.
> 
> Cheers,
> Mark

and where do you get that internal ports can't do hotplug?

From the site you just linked:

Currently, most PC motherboards do not have an e-SATA connector. eSATA is 
readily enabled, however, through the addition of an eSATA HBA or bracket 
connector (as shown above) for desktop systems or with a Cardbus or Express 
Card for notebooks. New motherboards introduced in 2005 will start to 
incorporate e-SATA connectors directly, making the addition of external 
storage an easy option.

Oh wow, all you have to do is to plug in the cable from the bracket... hmm...

A little hint for you: all AHCI sata ports can do hotplugging. Every single 
one. The sockets are designed to allow hotplugging, so it is down to the 
controller and driver. And AHCI is completely fine in both regards.
Some very early looks-like-ide controller chips could not do hotplugging but 
coldplugging (you had to tell the driver that you were offline the device), some 
could not do hotplugging at all - but not because of 'cheapness'.

Again, all AHCI chips can do hotplugging. No matter where they are.

And about esata: the only difference: cables are a bit fatter, connectors a 
little bit more robust. That is all. You can turn any ahci-sata port into an 
esata port without any problems.

https://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/SATA_hardware_features

https://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/AHCI

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 23:02 on Wednesday 15 December 2010, Volker 
Armin Hemmann did opine thusly:

> and where do you get that internal ports can't do hotplug?

He never said that. Here's what he did say:

1) Internal SATA drives are at the end of a single cable and don't
require hot-plugging logic be built into the SATA port driver on the
SATA controller because they are always powered up. (They are inside
the case)


"don't require" != "can't do"

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Mark Knecht]

On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 23:02 on Wednesday 15 December 2010, Volker
> Armin Hemmann did opine thusly:
>
>> and where do you get that internal ports can't do hotplug?
>
> He never said that. Here's what he did say:
>
> 1) Internal SATA drives are at the end of a single cable and don't
> require hot-plugging logic be built into the SATA port driver on the
> SATA controller because they are always powered up. (They are inside
> the case)
>
>
> "don't require" != "can't do"
>
> --
> alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
>
>
Thank you Alan.

Cheers,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 23:46 on Wednesday 15 December 2010, Mark 
Knecht did opine thusly:

> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> 
wrote:
> > Apparently, though unproven, at 23:02 on Wednesday 15 December 2010,
> > Volker
> > 
> > Armin Hemmann did opine thusly:
> >> and where do you get that internal ports can't do hotplug?
> > 
> > He never said that. Here's what he did say:
> > 
> > 1) Internal SATA drives are at the end of a single cable and don't
> > require hot-plugging logic be built into the SATA port driver on the
> > SATA controller because they are always powered up. (They are inside
> > the case)
> > 
> > 
> > "don't require" != "can't do"
> 
> Thank you Alan.

You're welcome. This raises an interesting question - hotplugging isn't 
mandated but it is implemented widely. How widespread is it? Eg can we 
reasonably assume a recent motherboard probably does support it?

I thinking of USB daisy chaining - it's possible but hardly ever used, so it 
might as well not even be in the spec at all


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Thursday 16 December 2010 09:31:34 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 23:46 on Wednesday 15 December 2010, Mark
> 
> Knecht did opine thusly:
> > On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>
> 
> wrote:
> > > Apparently, though unproven, at 23:02 on Wednesday 15 December 2010,
> > > Volker
> > > 
> > > Armin Hemmann did opine thusly:
> > >> and where do you get that internal ports can't do hotplug?
> > > 
> > > He never said that. Here's what he did say:
> > > 
> > > 1) Internal SATA drives are at the end of a single cable and don't
> > > require hot-plugging logic be built into the SATA port driver on the
> > > SATA controller because they are always powered up. (They are inside
> > > the case)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > "don't require" != "can't do"
> > 
> > Thank you Alan.
> 
> You're welcome. This raises an interesting question - hotplugging isn't
> mandated but it is implemented widely. How widespread is it? Eg can we
> reasonably assume a recent motherboard probably does support it?
> 
> I thinking of USB daisy chaining - it's possible but hardly ever used, so it
> might as well not even be in the spec at all

again, the hardware to hotplug is built into every sata connector. What is 
left is the controller not getting confused and the driver.

AHCI as a standard says yes to hoplugging. So as long as you use a AHCI 
compliant sata controller you can hotplug.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Mark Knecht]

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 7:29 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
>
> again, the hardware to hotplug is built into every sata connector. What is
> left is the controller not getting confused and the driver.
>

Every SATA connector? External connectors yes. Internal connectors no.

> AHCI as a standard says yes to hoplugging. So as long as you use a AHCI
> compliant sata controller you can hotplug.

Interested readers should be _VERY_ careful about listening to
previous advice. The major difference between the internal and
external SATA cables & connectors, a ***particularly*** important part
of hotplugging, is that the external connector ensures that ground is
connected before the signals. This ensures that in the case of static
electricity the drive becomes grounded to the computer which is done
to eliminate ESD (electro static discharge) events which will damage
either the drive or the controller. (Depending n which is charged.)

If you are using an internal power supply and have drive power already
attached when you hotplug an internal cable then likely you will be
just fine.

If, on the other hand, you have a SATA drive sitting on a bench using
a separate power supply then hotplugging with an internal cable is not
recommended.

Hope this helps,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 7:29 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com>  wrote:
> <SNIP>
>    
>> again, the hardware to hotplug is built into every sata connector. What is
>> left is the controller not getting confused and the driver.
>>
>>      
> Every SATA connector? External connectors yes. Internal connectors no.
>
>    
>> AHCI as a standard says yes to hoplugging. So as long as you use a AHCI
>> compliant sata controller you can hotplug.
>>      
> Interested readers should be _VERY_ careful about listening to
> previous advice. The major difference between the internal and
> external SATA cables&  connectors, a ***particularly*** important part
> of hotplugging, is that the external connector ensures that ground is
> connected before the signals. This ensures that in the case of static
> electricity the drive becomes grounded to the computer which is done
> to eliminate ESD (electro static discharge) events which will damage
> either the drive or the controller. (Depending n which is charged.)
>
> If you are using an internal power supply and have drive power already
> attached when you hotplug an internal cable then likely you will be
> just fine.
>
> If, on the other hand, you have a SATA drive sitting on a bench using
> a separate power supply then hotplugging with an internal cable is not
> recommended.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Mark
>
>    

I'm not saying that this is good advice but this is what my mobo manual 
says.  If I have the BIOS set to AHCI, then all the ports are hot 
pluggable.  That includes the internal ones.  My mobo design is about a 
year old so this may not apply to older ones but that is what the manual 
says.  Just because I am to chicken to try doesn't mean it doesn't work 
tho.  I'm to chicken to use the one marked external too.

I moved my data drive over from the old rig last night.  I got out the 
flashlight and magnifying glass and gave all the connectors a good 
looking over.  They all have that L shape connector which is usually 
what external connectors have.  That is according to what I have read 
anyway.  All the connectors are the same on my mobo, both internal and 
external.

It appears to me that with my mobo, there is no "internal" connectors.  
They are just all SATA and hot pluggable.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Mark Knecht]

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Knecht wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 7:29 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com>  wrote:
>> <SNIP>
>>
>>>
>>> again, the hardware to hotplug is built into every sata connector. What
>>> is
>>> left is the controller not getting confused and the driver.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Every SATA connector? External connectors yes. Internal connectors no.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> AHCI as a standard says yes to hoplugging. So as long as you use a AHCI
>>> compliant sata controller you can hotplug.
>>>
>>
>> Interested readers should be _VERY_ careful about listening to
>> previous advice. The major difference between the internal and
>> external SATA cables&  connectors, a ***particularly*** important part
>> of hotplugging, is that the external connector ensures that ground is
>> connected before the signals. This ensures that in the case of static
>> electricity the drive becomes grounded to the computer which is done
>> to eliminate ESD (electro static discharge) events which will damage
>> either the drive or the controller. (Depending n which is charged.)
>>
>> If you are using an internal power supply and have drive power already
>> attached when you hotplug an internal cable then likely you will be
>> just fine.
>>
>> If, on the other hand, you have a SATA drive sitting on a bench using
>> a separate power supply then hotplugging with an internal cable is not
>> recommended.
>>
>> Hope this helps,
>> Mark
>>
>>

Hi Dale

>
> I'm not saying that this is good advice but this is what my mobo manual
> says.  If I have the BIOS set to AHCI, then all the ports are hot pluggable.
>  That includes the internal ones.  My mobo design is about a year old so
> this may not apply to older ones but that is what the manual says.  Just
> because I am to chicken to try doesn't mean it doesn't work tho.  I'm to
> chicken to use the one marked external too.
>

Cool. As I said when I first replied to this thread that's not always
the case. My Intel DH55HC has 6 SATA ports but only 2 are eSATA
compatible.

If you are hot plugging internal drives to internal connectors and
they are hooked to the same power supply as your motherboard then it
should be safe even using internal cables that fit the motherboard
connectors. Note that those connectors aren't all that strong so you
should be careful not to break one.

> I moved my data drive over from the old rig last night.  I got out the
> flashlight and magnifying glass and gave all the connectors a good looking
> over.  They all have that L shape connector which is usually what external
> connectors have.  That is according to what I have read anyway.  All the
> connectors are the same on my mobo, both internal and external.
>
> It appears to me that with my mobo, there is no "internal" connectors.  They
> are just all SATA and hot pluggable.
>
> Dale

Hold on there. SATA and eSATA connectors are definitely different. If
your case came with a cable hooked to the eSATA connector then that
cable is taking care of the difference already. Try plugging an
internal SATA cable into the eSATA connector on your case. You'll find
out pretty quickly that they don't work.

A proper eSATA connector doesn't have the 'L'. It has small flanges
that stick out to the sides. (Or mine do anyway!!)

No reason to be scared of eSATA hotplugging. Works fine and it's
designed to be robust.
- Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
>    
>> Mark Knecht wrote:
>>      
>>> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 7:29 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>>> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com>    wrote:
>>> <SNIP>
>>>
>>>        
>>>> again, the hardware to hotplug is built into every sata connector. What
>>>> is
>>>> left is the controller not getting confused and the driver.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          
>>> Every SATA connector? External connectors yes. Internal connectors no.
>>>
>>>
>>>        
>>>> AHCI as a standard says yes to hoplugging. So as long as you use a AHCI
>>>> compliant sata controller you can hotplug.
>>>>
>>>>          
>>> Interested readers should be _VERY_ careful about listening to
>>> previous advice. The major difference between the internal and
>>> external SATA cables&    connectors, a ***particularly*** important part
>>> of hotplugging, is that the external connector ensures that ground is
>>> connected before the signals. This ensures that in the case of static
>>> electricity the drive becomes grounded to the computer which is done
>>> to eliminate ESD (electro static discharge) events which will damage
>>> either the drive or the controller. (Depending n which is charged.)
>>>
>>> If you are using an internal power supply and have drive power already
>>> attached when you hotplug an internal cable then likely you will be
>>> just fine.
>>>
>>> If, on the other hand, you have a SATA drive sitting on a bench using
>>> a separate power supply then hotplugging with an internal cable is not
>>> recommended.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps,
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>>        
> Hi Dale
>
>    
>> I'm not saying that this is good advice but this is what my mobo manual
>> says.  If I have the BIOS set to AHCI, then all the ports are hot pluggable.
>>   That includes the internal ones.  My mobo design is about a year old so
>> this may not apply to older ones but that is what the manual says.  Just
>> because I am to chicken to try doesn't mean it doesn't work tho.  I'm to
>> chicken to use the one marked external too.
>>
>>      
> Cool. As I said when I first replied to this thread that's not always
> the case. My Intel DH55HC has 6 SATA ports but only 2 are eSATA
> compatible.
>
> If you are hot plugging internal drives to internal connectors and
> they are hooked to the same power supply as your motherboard then it
> should be safe even using internal cables that fit the motherboard
> connectors. Note that those connectors aren't all that strong so you
> should be careful not to break one.
>
>    
>> I moved my data drive over from the old rig last night.  I got out the
>> flashlight and magnifying glass and gave all the connectors a good looking
>> over.  They all have that L shape connector which is usually what external
>> connectors have.  That is according to what I have read anyway.  All the
>> connectors are the same on my mobo, both internal and external.
>>
>> It appears to me that with my mobo, there is no "internal" connectors.  They
>> are just all SATA and hot pluggable.
>>
>> Dale
>>      
> Hold on there. SATA and eSATA connectors are definitely different. If
> your case came with a cable hooked to the eSATA connector then that
> cable is taking care of the difference already. Try plugging an
> internal SATA cable into the eSATA connector on your case. You'll find
> out pretty quickly that they don't work.
>
> A proper eSATA connector doesn't have the 'L'. It has small flanges
> that stick out to the sides. (Or mine do anyway!!)
>
> No reason to be scared of eSATA hotplugging. Works fine and it's
> designed to be robust.
> - Mark
>
>    

That's the thing, ALL the SATA connectors are the same.  They are the 
same color, same shape and all.  They are all identical just turned in 
different ways for some reason.  If you want, you can look for 
yourself.  Here is a link to the mobo.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128431

If you click on the image, it will load up a new page and you can zoom 
in and take a really close look.  As I said, this is a mobo that came 
out in about 2009 according to what I have read.  This may not work on 
old mobos that don't have this connector.

I would assume that since this connector is a eSATA type, that it is hot 
pluggable like the manual says.  After all, if it says it is in the 
manual, they have to stand behind it if someone plugs up the wrong thing.

I used plain SATA cables to hook all my drives up.  I don't have a eSATA 
cable that I know of.  I ordered a couple cables when I ordered my parts 
to build this rig and I have used them.  They plug into the mobo just 
fine.  Here is a link to it:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812816032

According to that page, it is hot pluggable but no mention of being a 
eSATA cable.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Mark Knecht]

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:10 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Knecht wrote:
<SNIP>
>>
>> Hold on there. SATA and eSATA connectors are definitely different. If
>> your case came with a cable hooked to the eSATA connector then that
>> cable is taking care of the difference already. Try plugging an
>> internal SATA cable into the eSATA connector on your case. You'll find
>> out pretty quickly that they don't work.
>>
>> A proper eSATA connector doesn't have the 'L'. It has small flanges
>> that stick out to the sides. (Or mine do anyway!!)
>>
>> No reason to be scared of eSATA hotplugging. Works fine and it's
>> designed to be robust.
>> - Mark
>>
>>
>
> That's the thing, ALL the SATA connectors are the same.  They are the same
> color, same shape and all.  They are all identical just turned in different
> ways for some reason.  If you want, you can look for yourself.  Here is a
> link to the mobo.
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128431
>

No, I totally believe you, but that's not the issue.

The connectors on the motherboard are ALWAYS internal connectors so
that you can use all of them with internal disk drives, etc. using
internal cables.

The eSATA connector is, however, different. You can see it in the link
I sent earlier, copied here:

http://www.serialata.org/technology/esata.asp

There is a _special_ SATA-to-eSATA assembly to make the conversion. If
your case has a cable built into the case and already hooked up to the
eSATA connector then it will have an internal SATA connector on the
cable. However if you look at the eSATA connector itself, on the
outside of the case, it will look like the one in the picture on the
above link. More below...

> If you click on the image, it will load up a new page and you can zoom in
> and take a really close look.  As I said, this is a mobo that came out in
> about 2009 according to what I have read.  This may not work on old mobos
> that don't have this connector.
>
> I would assume that since this connector is a eSATA type, that it is hot
> pluggable like the manual says.  After all, if it says it is in the manual,
> they have to stand behind it if someone plugs up the wrong thing.
>
> I used plain SATA cables to hook all my drives up.  I don't have a eSATA
> cable that I know of.  I ordered a couple cables when I ordered my parts to
> build this rig and I have used them.  They plug into the mobo just fine.
>  Here is a link to it:
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812816032
>
> According to that page, it is hot pluggable but no mention of being a eSATA
> cable.
>

Your cables are perfect for internal drives. Keep in mind that the
internal connectors are only spec'ed for 50 insertions in their
lifetime. They aren't made to be messed with very much. eSATA
connectors are spec'ed for (IIRC) 6000 insertions.

Here is an example of an eSATA bracket if your motherboard or case
didn't come with one. It has an internal SATA connector on one end
which you plug into your motherboard. It has an eSATA connector on the
bracket.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812816069&cm_re=esata_bracket-_-12-816-069-_-Product

That one would use a back panel slot but essentially steals a PCI slot.

Again, I think you've done everything perfectly as far as I can tell.
I only got involved in the thread at all because (IMO) incorrect info
was being tossed around about eSATA, SATA and hotplugging. If you're
not going to use eSATA then none of this matters to you today. In my
case I had to learn this because not all internal SATA ports on my
Intel MB were eSATA compatible and I needed to do it the right way.

Cheers buddy,
Mark

[gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-12-16, Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:

> Your cables are perfect for internal drives. Keep in mind that the
> internal connectors are only spec'ed for 50 insertions in their
> lifetime.

In my experience, the real lifetime is closer to 5.  In 25 years of
dealing with computer cabling and connectors, the surface-mount
internal SATA connectors on motherboards are by far the most fragile
ones I've ever come across.  In years and years of dealing with SCSI,
IDE/ATA, floppies, and several flavors of MFM and RLL cabling, I don't
ever remember one of them breaking. I've seen quite a few internal
motherboard SATA connectors break -- or even get pulled off the board.
And it's not just me, I've seen other people break them just as much.
IMO, they're gargabe.  Other than the fragile surface-mount
connectors, I do like SATA.

OTOH, back when a decent PC cost you $5K, a few dollars on a good
connector wasn't a big deal.  These days when you have to build a
Motherboard for $20, you just can't put $5 worth of connectors on it.

> They aren't made to be messed with very much.

Very true.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Boys, you have ALL
                                  at               been selected to LEAVE th'
                              gmail.com            PLANET in 15 minutes!!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:10 AM, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
>    
>> Mark Knecht wrote:
>>      
> <SNIP>
>    
>>> Hold on there. SATA and eSATA connectors are definitely different. If
>>> your case came with a cable hooked to the eSATA connector then that
>>> cable is taking care of the difference already. Try plugging an
>>> internal SATA cable into the eSATA connector on your case. You'll find
>>> out pretty quickly that they don't work.
>>>
>>> A proper eSATA connector doesn't have the 'L'. It has small flanges
>>> that stick out to the sides. (Or mine do anyway!!)
>>>
>>> No reason to be scared of eSATA hotplugging. Works fine and it's
>>> designed to be robust.
>>> - Mark
>>>
>>>
>>>        
>> That's the thing, ALL the SATA connectors are the same.  They are the same
>> color, same shape and all.  They are all identical just turned in different
>> ways for some reason.  If you want, you can look for yourself.  Here is a
>> link to the mobo.
>>
>> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128431
>>
>>      
> No, I totally believe you, but that's not the issue.
>
> The connectors on the motherboard are ALWAYS internal connectors so
> that you can use all of them with internal disk drives, etc. using
> internal cables.
>
> The eSATA connector is, however, different. You can see it in the link
> I sent earlier, copied here:
>
> http://www.serialata.org/technology/esata.asp
>
> There is a _special_ SATA-to-eSATA assembly to make the conversion. If
> your case has a cable built into the case and already hooked up to the
> eSATA connector then it will have an internal SATA connector on the
> cable. However if you look at the eSATA connector itself, on the
> outside of the case, it will look like the one in the picture on the
> above link. More below...
>
>    
>> If you click on the image, it will load up a new page and you can zoom in
>> and take a really close look.  As I said, this is a mobo that came out in
>> about 2009 according to what I have read.  This may not work on old mobos
>> that don't have this connector.
>>
>> I would assume that since this connector is a eSATA type, that it is hot
>> pluggable like the manual says.  After all, if it says it is in the manual,
>> they have to stand behind it if someone plugs up the wrong thing.
>>
>> I used plain SATA cables to hook all my drives up.  I don't have a eSATA
>> cable that I know of.  I ordered a couple cables when I ordered my parts to
>> build this rig and I have used them.  They plug into the mobo just fine.
>>   Here is a link to it:
>>
>> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812816032
>>
>> According to that page, it is hot pluggable but no mention of being a eSATA
>> cable.
>>
>>      
> Your cables are perfect for internal drives. Keep in mind that the
> internal connectors are only spec'ed for 50 insertions in their
> lifetime. They aren't made to be messed with very much. eSATA
> connectors are spec'ed for (IIRC) 6000 insertions.
>
> Here is an example of an eSATA bracket if your motherboard or case
> didn't come with one. It has an internal SATA connector on one end
> which you plug into your motherboard. It has an eSATA connector on the
> bracket.
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812816069&cm_re=esata_bracket-_-12-816-069-_-Product
>
> That one would use a back panel slot but essentially steals a PCI slot.
>
> Again, I think you've done everything perfectly as far as I can tell.
> I only got involved in the thread at all because (IMO) incorrect info
> was being tossed around about eSATA, SATA and hotplugging. If you're
> not going to use eSATA then none of this matters to you today. In my
> case I had to learn this because not all internal SATA ports on my
> Intel MB were eSATA compatible and I needed to do it the right way.
>
> Cheers buddy,
> Mark
>
>    

OK.  I'm not going to argue the point.  All I know is this, the cable 
that came with the case will plug into any SATA connector on my mobo.  
There is nothing marking a eSATA port on there.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Mark Knecht]

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> OK.  I'm not going to argue the point.  All I know is this, the cable that
> came with the case will plug into any SATA connector on my mobo.  There is
> nothing marking a eSATA port on there.

There's nothing to argue. On your motherboard all ports are eSATA compatible.

On my DH55HC only two of the 6 are eSATA compatible:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ImageGallery.aspx?CurImage=13-121-396-TS&SpinSet=13-121-396-RS&ISList=13-121-396-Z01%2c13-121-396-Z02%2c13-121-396-Z03%2c13-121-396-Z04%2c13-121-396-Z05&S7ImageFlag=1&Item=N82E16813121396&Depa=0&WaterMark=1&Description=Intel%20BOXDH55HC%20LGA%201156%20Intel%20H55%20HDMI%20ATX%20Intel%20Motherboard


In the picture you can see 6 ports on the upper right. 4 are black, 2
are red. The two red ones are the only ones eSATA compatible.

Your machine is put together perfectly AFAICT.

Cheers,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Dale]

Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com>  wrote:
>
>    
>> OK.  I'm not going to argue the point.  All I know is this, the cable that
>> came with the case will plug into any SATA connector on my mobo.  There is
>> nothing marking a eSATA port on there.
>>      
> There's nothing to argue. On your motherboard all ports are eSATA compatible.
>
> On my DH55HC only two of the 6 are eSATA compatible:
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/ImageGallery.aspx?CurImage=13-121-396-TS&SpinSet=13-121-396-RS&ISList=13-121-396-Z01%2c13-121-396-Z02%2c13-121-396-Z03%2c13-121-396-Z04%2c13-121-396-Z05&S7ImageFlag=1&Item=N82E16813121396&Depa=0&WaterMark=1&Description=Intel%20BOXDH55HC%20LGA%201156%20Intel%20H55%20HDMI%20ATX%20Intel%20Motherboard
>
>
> In the picture you can see 6 ports on the upper right. 4 are black, 2
> are red. The two red ones are the only ones eSATA compatible.
>
> Your machine is put together perfectly AFAICT.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
>
>    

You have red and black connectors where mine are blue.  Yours physically 
look like mine except for the colors.  They have the same L shape 
thingy.  Spell checker don't like thingy so I need to trademark that 
word.  lol

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/5640/201012070003cutscale.jpg

That is my rig but I have added a couple things since then.  I also 
moved the ram to the outer slot.  My CPU fan was rubbing on it a bit.  I 
got to get shorter sticks for the inner slots.  The red wire that can 
barely be seen is the cable that goes to the front eSATA plug.  That pic 
doesn't show it well at all tho.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Thursday 16 December 2010 12:42:06 Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> > OK.  I'm not going to argue the point.  All I know is this, the cable
> > that came with the case will plug into any SATA connector on my mobo.
> >  There is nothing marking a eSATA port on there.
> 
> There's nothing to argue. On your motherboard all ports are eSATA
> compatible.
> 
> On my DH55HC only two of the 6 are eSATA compatible:
> 

is that written in the manual or are you just making that up?

because for a lot of boards, all connectors are compatible and the ones with a 
different colour are just connected to an additional controller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Mark Knecht]

On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday 16 December 2010 12:42:06 Mark Knecht wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > OK.  I'm not going to argue the point.  All I know is this, the cable
>> > that came with the case will plug into any SATA connector on my mobo.
>> >  There is nothing marking a eSATA port on there.
>>
>> There's nothing to argue. On your motherboard all ports are eSATA
>> compatible.
>>
>> On my DH55HC only two of the 6 are eSATA compatible:
>>
>
> is that written in the manual or are you just making that up?
>
> because for a lot of boards, all connectors are compatible and the ones with a
> different colour are just connected to an additional controller.

It is written in the manual. As you seemingly will never believe this
coming from me, for who knows what reason, here's a link at NewEgg.
Check the details tab yourself for confirmation:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121397&cm_re=DH55-_-13-121-397-_-Product

Jeez...

Over and out,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Monday 27 December 2010 09:45:34 Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> 
> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday 16 December 2010 12:42:06 Mark Knecht wrote:
> >> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > OK.  I'm not going to argue the point.  All I know is this, the
> >> > cable
> >> > that came with the case will plug into any SATA connector on my
> >> > mobo.
> >> >  There is nothing marking a eSATA port on there.
> >> 
> >> There's nothing to argue. On your motherboard all ports are eSATA
> >> compatible.
> > 
> >> On my DH55HC only two of the 6 are eSATA compatible:
> > is that written in the manual or are you just making that up?
> > 
> > because for a lot of boards, all connectors are compatible and the ones
> > with a different colour are just connected to an additional controller.
> 
> It is written in the manual. As you seemingly will never believe this
> coming from me, for who knows what reason, here's a link at NewEgg.
> Check the details tab yourself for confirmation:
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121397&cm_re=DH55-_
> -13-121-397-_-Product

thanks. So you own a shit board. I feel for you.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Thursday 16 December 2010 07:47:18 Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 7:29 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> <SNIP>
> 
> > again, the hardware to hotplug is built into every sata connector. What
> > is left is the controller not getting confused and the driver.
> 
> Every SATA connector? External connectors yes. Internal connectors no.

wrong. EVERY connector. 
The arrangements of the the contacts guarantee an electrical save hotplug 
event.

> 
> > AHCI as a standard says yes to hoplugging. So as long as you use a AHCI
> > compliant sata controller you can hotplug.
> 
> Interested readers should be _VERY_ careful about listening to
> previous advice. The major difference between the internal and
> external SATA cables & connectors, a ***particularly*** important part
> of hotplugging, is that the external connector ensures that ground is
> connected before the signals. 

this is true for ALL connectors.


> This ensures that in the case of static
> electricity the drive becomes grounded to the computer which is done
> to eliminate ESD (electro static discharge) events which will damage
> either the drive or the controller. (Depending n which is charged.)
> 
> If you are using an internal power supply and have drive power already
> attached when you hotplug an internal cable then likely you will be
> just fine.
> 
> If, on the other hand, you have a SATA drive sitting on a bench using
> a separate power supply then hotplugging with an internal cable is not
> recommended.

and suddenly you are opening a completely different box.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Stroller]

On 15/12/2010, at 7:58pm, Mark Knecht wrote:
> ...
> 1) Internal SATA drives are at the end of a single cable and don't
> require hot-plugging logic be built into the SATA port driver on the
> SATA controller because they are always powered up. (They are inside
> the case)

I'm not sure this is the case.

This is what I have in my closet:
http://www.tstcom.com/product_details.asp?ID=4

The backplanes seem pretty dumb. When you remove a drive, you seem to be hot-swapping it near-directly from the SATA controller.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Stroller]

On 15/12/2010, at 7:35pm, Grant Edwards wrote:
> ...
> Not according to Wikipedia ... I believe the Wikipedia page.

I would be really pretty cautious about that, dude.

Out of a need to "contribute" I have spend quite a few hours in the last year editing wikipedia articles, and paying more attention in general to their veracity. They can contain some terribly inaccurate and outdated information.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Questions about SATA and hot plugging.

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 08:23 on Thursday 16 December 2010, Stroller 
did opine thusly:

> On 15/12/2010, at 7:35pm, Grant Edwards wrote:
> > ...
> > Not according to Wikipedia ... I believe the Wikipedia page.
> 
> I would be really pretty cautious about that, dude.
> 
> Out of a need to "contribute" I have spend quite a few hours in the last
> year editing wikipedia articles, and paying more attention in general to
> their veracity. They can contain some terribly inaccurate and outdated
> information.

Caution is good. Believing blindly is not good.

Wikipedia is a good place to find links to the real information. Always after 
applying a hefty dose of critical thinking of course

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com