From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A386138E20 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2014 20:15:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B3BAFE0DA7; Fri, 21 Feb 2014 20:15:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtpq1.gn.mail.iss.as9143.net (smtpq1.gn.mail.iss.as9143.net [212.54.34.164]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76F1AE0D76 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2014 20:15:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [212.54.34.137] (helo=smtp6.gn.mail.iss.as9143.net) by smtpq1.gn.mail.iss.as9143.net with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WGwVK-0003Iq-3m for gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org; Fri, 21 Feb 2014 21:15:26 +0100 Received: from 53579160.cm-6-8c.dynamic.ziggo.nl ([83.87.145.96] helo=data.antarean.org) by smtp6.gn.mail.iss.as9143.net with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WGwVI-0002Y8-Ms for gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org; Fri, 21 Feb 2014 21:15:26 +0100 Received: from www.antarean.org (net.lan.antarean.org [10.20.13.13]) by data.antarean.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29DFE4B for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2014 21:14:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from 10.55.16.19 (SquirrelMail authenticated user joost) by www.antarean.org with HTTP; Fri, 21 Feb 2014 21:14:56 +0100 Message-ID: <4ba5b05280a16043f9898e32b68049a7.squirrel@www.antarean.org> In-Reply-To: References: <52FF84CE.2050301@libertytrek.org> <52FF9D58.3000608@libertytrek.org> <201402152023.10543.michaelkintzios@gmail.com> <5300DD51.5060207@libertytrek.org> <53010A8E.2050909@googlemail.com> <53012691.6040503@googlemail.com> <20140217215255.5766cb026df2f0b8002f8702@gmail.com> <20140218203656.abace1d77731d845bec62c62@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 21:14:56 +0100 Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie From: "J. Roeleveld" To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.22 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Ziggo-spambar: + X-Ziggo-spamscore: 1.2 X-Ziggo-spamreport: BAYES_50=0.8,RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982,RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.574 X-Ziggo-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Flag: No X-Archives-Salt: 869a4d8c-8711-4fe2-9260-41238a050219 X-Archives-Hash: 88ba7c89f67f171ea2c784f5f50a891c On Thu, February 20, 2014 06:34, Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s wrote: > On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 3:00 AM, J. Roeleveld wrot= e: >> On Tue, February 18, 2014 18:12, Canek Pel=C3=83=C2=A1ez Vald=C3=83=C2= =A9s wrote: > > [ snip ] > >>> Of course the larger a project is the *potential* number of bugs >>> increases, but so what? With enough developers, users and testers, al= l >>> bugs are *potentially* squashed. >> >> Agreed, but I know of enough large projects with large development tea= ms >> and even more users that don't get the most basic bugs fixed. >> Quantity is not equivalent to Quality. > > I also agree with that. My point is that the systemd project has > enough numbers of *talented* developers to do it. > > You can disagree, of course. Talented developer, maybe. But not talented designers. >>> And systemd has a *much* wider community than any other init system. >>> So it can handle a larger code base. >> >> Incorrect. How many people use systemd as opposed to SysV Init? > > Users? Like five thousand godzillions more. I tend to disagree. Systemd is ONLY on Linux. SysV init can be found on alot of other platforms used in the world. Thin= k Solaris, AIX, HPuX and Linux machines that have not had their init-system= s changed. > Developers? It would not surprise me that systemd has several times > more developers that SysV ever had. Maybe, but the developers back then still followed the unix-way: Have a tool do one job and do it well. >From what I see from systemd, it tries to do too much and the single jobs suffer from feature-bloat. > What's more, I think those developers are talented enough, to say the > least. I miss talented designers. >>>>> > SysVinit code size is about 10 000 lines of code, OpenRC contains >>>>> > about 13 000 lines, systemd =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=80=9D about 200 00= 0 lines. >>>>> >>>>> If you take into account the thousands of shell code that SysV and >>>>> OpenRC need to fill the functionality of systemd, they use even mor= e. >> >> The shell-code is proven to work though and provided with most of the >> software. Where it isn't provided, it can be easily created. >> I have seen (and used) complex start-up scripts for large software >> implementations which complex dependencies. >> Fortunately, later versions of those software packages have fixed that >> mess to a large extend, but I wonder how well systemd unit-files can >> work >> in such an environment. > > You can read [1]. I think it provides a fair and impartial account of > how to use systemd to start a complex service (NFS, by its author). I would not class NFS as a complex service. I am talking about a dozen different services that need to be started in = a specific order where the next one is not allowed to start before the previous one actually responds to TCP/IP connections. How would I configure that in systemd unit-files? If I were to have sockets created in advance (does it work with TCP/IP sockets?) I would get timeouts on the responses which would lead to some services not starting correctly and ending up in limbo... >> Having sockets created prior to service start will not work as >> components >> will fail due to time-outs, leaving even a bigger mess. > > I could be wrong, but I believe the use of cgroups takes care of all > that. If the service fails, systemd PID 1 can reliable detect it, and > force the socket to close, and even reopen it for new connections if > so configured by the administrator. Force the socket to close? That's nice, goodbye connection to one of the databases. Hello auto-shutdown of services because something is clearly wrong. With auto-restart, that will create an interesting sequence of events designed to really break the installation. >>>> If that code will fail, this wouldn't be critical at system level. >>>> Thus scope of fatal error is limited. >>> >>> Also in systemd, since most of its code is not critical (again; >>> logind, datetimed, localed, etc., failing, has no impact whatsoever o= n >>> the rest of the system). >> >> I understand the usecase for "logind", but what is the point of a daem= on >> to supply the time (datetimed)? Is this a full replacement for "ntpd"? >> And what does "localed" do? That's configured once in the environment >> and >> should be handled using environment variables. > > I'm sorry, but *everything* you are asking for is in the link I gave > you that you qualified it of "not necessary for this discussion" (I > also pointed someone else to [2]). If you are really interested in the > answers, go on and read it there. > > It's certainly better than hearing it from me. Maybe, but based on the name, and I am assuming the names have some sort of relevance, localed makes no sense. -- Joost