From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([208.92.234.80] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1RiaLr-0002wC-Nn for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:34:36 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1859421C03A; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 23:34:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-qw0-f53.google.com (mail-qw0-f53.google.com [209.85.216.53]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CE4C21C01F for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 23:33:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: by qadb15 with SMTP id b15so11895911qad.19 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:33:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8drGcDouO2obGkSNIlO2NEXSciugjVb0MlZjUx3lQQA=; b=J/JGaYBK2UVGRUDkuvYCJsGZVHOKE+d68scyIezcg80oJBplW4oC6IygyIzeHPKGCA YDWb7nmFCzmIcEzHvkzaQmofb5bzzqastg4PkXeI/+DX9vDVImfTLXp1VTxQgH4ON23U mxkrUYVL/xVN4AYA/6CoiooV4frbFhIpBeFiE= Received: by 10.224.18.147 with SMTP id w19mr70513557qaa.40.1325719991743; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:33:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.5] (adsl-65-0-65-42.jan.bellsouth.net. [65.0.65.42]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d5sm2045403qaj.18.2012.01.04.15.33.09 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:33:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4F04E1B4.3050901@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:33:08 -0600 From: Dale User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20111022 Firefox/7.0.1 SeaMonkey/2.4.1 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Beta test Gentoo with mdev instead of udev; version 3 References: <20111115062115.GA3262@waltdnes.org> <20111121104724.GC7461@waltdnes.org> <20111201194544.GD4455@waltdnes.org> <20120103100445.GD1961@waltdnes.org> <20120103123209.GB2410@nicolas-desktop> <20120103131346.GC2410@nicolas-desktop> <20120103143120.GF2410@nicolas-desktop> <20120103221555.22c778a3@digimed.co.uk> <4F038C23.5030708@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: a986824e-a540-4870-a395-8bd5641040ac X-Archives-Hash: f6d6a832059d38f2ad93072336802996 Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s wrote: > On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 6:35 AM, Pandu Poluan wrote: >> On Jan 4, 2012 6:19 AM, "Dale" wrote: >>> Neil Bothwick wrote: >>>> On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 15:31:20 +0100, Nicolas Sebrecht wrote: >>>> >>>>> I know. It's the "I want to get the rid of initramfs" thing that lo= oks >>>>> crazy to me. >>>> No one is saying they want to get rid of the initramfs, because they= are >>>> not using one. What people object to is being forced to start using = one. >>>> >>>> >>> You got that right. I have not used one since I started using Gentoo= . >>> Now, I may very well have to start. I hope mdev gets to a point wh= ere it >>> works really well on desktop systems. >>> >> You were there in the thread linked by Walt, udev is just one of sever= al >> packages maintained by RH people that *demands* /usr to be mounted dur= ing >> boot. >> >> And the RH devels insistence to deprecate /bin, /sbin, /usr/sbin... >> >> I'm getting depressed. One battle might be won (mdev vs udev), but the= re's >> still a war against the RH braindeadness... > I'm sorry to tell you this, but (as admirable as it could be), the > mdev hack to use it instead of udev is not a "victory". We are not at > war, in the first place; and in the second place, the mdev hack would > be used by a handful of guys bent on refusing a change that, like it > or not, would in the end come. Like Gentoo on FreeBSD, it would be a > nice hack, maybe even worthy of applause, but in the end irrelevant: a > toy. A cute, entertaining (and, in a few cases, useful) toy. But a toy > nonetheless. > > The heavy development will continue to happen in udev, and the devices > that will dominate in the future (touchscreens, bluetooth input and > audio devices, hardware that has a highly dynamic change rate) will > only be supported by udev. The mdev hack will be useful maybe to only > some guys, and even then udev would be able to do the same (and more). > > The use of an initramfs (or, alternatively, having /usr in the same > partition as /), and maybe the move of /bin to /usr/bin and /lib to > /usr/lib will be made, and in the future most of the interesting > software will simply assume that this is how a system works. Maybe we > will even stop to use the ridiculous short directory names from the > stone age, and we will start using sensible names: > > /usr -> /System > /etc -> /Config > /var -> /Variable > > I feel a deep respect for the people working on making mdev a > "replacement" of udev; it is not an easy task (even if it only works > for a really small subset of the use cases udev covers), and something > that I certainly would never do. But their hack (as beautiful as it > may be) will never be used by the majority of Linux users, and > probably not even by the majority of Gentoo users (if my > interpretation of the discussion on gentoo-dev is correct). And with > the pass of time it will be harder and harder to keep the hack working > with new hardware, new software, and new use cases. > > But, hey, this is FOSS; you guys go nuts hacking in whatever feature > (or anti-feature) you like. As in the case of this mdev hack, it may > even be included in the Gentoo ebuilds. Just don't expect it to be > supported forever, don't expect it to support general-purpose setups, > and certainly don't call it "a victory". It's just the same history as > always: the people writing the code are the ones calling the shots. > > Regards. I wonder how many times this has been said about other software that is=20 now in wide spread use. Keep in mind, some people think Gentoo is dying=20 and has been dying for YEARS. That's not just one package but a whole=20 distro. Will mdev replace udev, I dunno. Thing is, you don't know that it won't=20 either. Someone could come along and help Walter and make it better=20 than udev ever dreamed of being. I just have to mention hal too. Lots of people thought that was the new=20 sliced bread and frozen pizza. It sure did fall hard tho. As I said about my ex once, time tells. Sometimes, time is the only=20 thing that does tell too. Reminds me of wine although I don't drink it. Dale :-) :-) --=20 I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or = how you interpreted my words! Miss the compile output? Hint: EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS=3D"--quiet-build=3Dn"