Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 10/06/2011 04:20 AM, Jonas de Buhr wrote:
> 
> most of the "oh it's so weird"-whining often comes from just not being
> used to it. flip your door lock upside down - you'll hate it with
> passion for a week and then you won't even notice. flip it again and
> the process will repeat.
> 

But if someone else snuck into your house and flipped your locks every week?

This one change won't be catastrophic, but I will probably spend a good
eight hours researching, testing, implementing, and documenting it. In
the end, *if everything goes according to plan*, stuff will work exactly
how it does now.

If Grub were the only package to do this -- fine, whatever. But next
week it will be something else. I don't know what my point is, but it
feels good to bitch about it.

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Dale]

Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> On 10/06/2011 04:20 AM, Jonas de Buhr wrote:
>> most of the "oh it's so weird"-whining often comes from just not being
>> used to it. flip your door lock upside down - you'll hate it with
>> passion for a week and then you won't even notice. flip it again and
>> the process will repeat.
>>
> But if someone else snuck into your house and flipped your locks every week?
>
> This one change won't be catastrophic, but I will probably spend a good
> eight hours researching, testing, implementing, and documenting it. In
> the end, *if everything goes according to plan*, stuff will work exactly
> how it does now.
>
> If Grub were the only package to do this -- fine, whatever. But next
> week it will be something else. I don't know what my point is, but it
> feels good to bitch about it.
>
>

This is how I feel about the initramfs thingy and /usr and /var.  What 
is next?  I am pretty sure it will be something tho.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Mick]

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On Thursday 06 Oct 2011 20:42:43 Dale wrote:
> Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> > On 10/06/2011 04:20 AM, Jonas de Buhr wrote:
> >> most of the "oh it's so weird"-whining often comes from just not being
> >> used to it. flip your door lock upside down - you'll hate it with
> >> passion for a week and then you won't even notice. flip it again and
> >> the process will repeat.
> > 
> > But if someone else snuck into your house and flipped your locks every
> > week?
> > 
> > This one change won't be catastrophic, but I will probably spend a good
> > eight hours researching, testing, implementing, and documenting it. In
> > the end, *if everything goes according to plan*, stuff will work exactly
> > how it does now.
> > 
> > If Grub were the only package to do this -- fine, whatever. But next
> > week it will be something else. I don't know what my point is, but it
> > feels good to bitch about it.
> 
> This is how I feel about the initramfs thingy and /usr and /var.  What
> is next?  I am pretty sure it will be something tho.

I share your pain.  :-(

I'm not sure if this a sign of me getting (even) older, or Linux maturing and 
in doing so it caters less and less for Gentoo geeky users and more and more 
for mainstream ignoramuses.  :p

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Jonas de Buhr]

Am Thu, 06 Oct 2011 15:27:14 -0400
schrieb Michael Orlitzky <michael@orlitzky.com>:

> On 10/06/2011 04:20 AM, Jonas de Buhr wrote:
> > 
> > most of the "oh it's so weird"-whining often comes from just not
> > being used to it. flip your door lock upside down - you'll hate it
> > with passion for a week and then you won't even notice. flip it
> > again and the process will repeat.
> > 
> 
> But if someone else snuck into your house and flipped your locks
> every week?
> 
> This one change won't be catastrophic, but I will probably spend a
> good eight hours researching, testing, implementing, and documenting
> it. In the end, *if everything goes according to plan*, stuff will
> work exactly how it does now.

nothing forces you to switch to grub2.

> If Grub were the only package to do this -- fine, whatever. But next
> week it will be something else. I don't know what my point is, but it
> feels good to bitch about it.

don't get me started, the suppressed memories about HAL-config or
broken suse-10 usermount may come back ;)

but grub2 config doesn't look all that bad to me...
http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/development/chapter08/grub.html
seems like you can have a single grub.cfg and ignore the rest

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 10/06/2011 05:00 PM, Jonas de Buhr wrote:
> Am Thu, 06 Oct 2011 15:27:14 -0400
> schrieb Michael Orlitzky <michael@orlitzky.com>:
> 
>> On 10/06/2011 04:20 AM, Jonas de Buhr wrote:
>>>
>>> most of the "oh it's so weird"-whining often comes from just not
>>> being used to it. flip your door lock upside down - you'll hate it
>>> with passion for a week and then you won't even notice. flip it
>>> again and the process will repeat.
>>>
>>
>> But if someone else snuck into your house and flipped your locks
>> every week?
>>
>> This one change won't be catastrophic, but I will probably spend a
>> good eight hours researching, testing, implementing, and documenting
>> it. In the end, *if everything goes according to plan*, stuff will
>> work exactly how it does now.
> 
> nothing forces you to switch to grub2.
> 

True in theory, but not in practice. Legacy grub will go away
eventually. If we have some grub-legacy and some grub2 installs, we have
to support (document, test, take out to dinner occasionally) both, which
is probably going to be more effort than just moving to grub2 after I
figure out how it works.

Either way is going to require a non-zero amount of work, while zero is
the amount of work I would prefer to do.

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Paul Hartman]

On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:23 PM, Michael Orlitzky <michael@orlitzky.com> wrote:
> Either way is going to require a non-zero amount of work, while zero is
> the amount of work I would prefer to do.

Words to live by. :)

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 2:23 PM, Michael Orlitzky <michael@orlitzky.com> wrote:
> On 10/06/2011 05:00 PM, Jonas de Buhr wrote:
>> Am Thu, 06 Oct 2011 15:27:14 -0400
>> schrieb Michael Orlitzky <michael@orlitzky.com>:
>>
>>> On 10/06/2011 04:20 AM, Jonas de Buhr wrote:
>>>>
>>>> most of the "oh it's so weird"-whining often comes from just not
>>>> being used to it. flip your door lock upside down - you'll hate it
>>>> with passion for a week and then you won't even notice. flip it
>>>> again and the process will repeat.
>>>>
>>>
>>> But if someone else snuck into your house and flipped your locks
>>> every week?
>>>
>>> This one change won't be catastrophic, but I will probably spend a
>>> good eight hours researching, testing, implementing, and documenting
>>> it. In the end, *if everything goes according to plan*, stuff will
>>> work exactly how it does now.
>>
>> nothing forces you to switch to grub2.
>>
>
> True in theory, but not in practice. Legacy grub will go away
> eventually.

Technically, it's already gone. It's on life-support: the developers
of grub-legacy are the same of GRUB2, and they are only accepting bug
fixes, not new features (I believe, someone correct me if I'm
mistaken).

The good news is that your current hardware (and also the new, for the
next few months) will probably work OK with grub-legacy. The bad news
is that machines with EFI and UEFI will need to use GRUB2 (again, that
is what I understand, correct me if I'm wrong).

> If we have some grub-legacy and some grub2 installs, we have
> to support (document, test, take out to dinner occasionally) both, which
> is probably going to be more effort than just moving to grub2 after I
> figure out how it works.

Exactly. From my point of view, better to start moving to GRUB2 now
(except for critical systems), to got it mastered when it hits stable.

> Either way is going to require a non-zero amount of work, while zero is
> the amount of work I would prefer to do.

We have a say in México: "el que quiera azul celeste, que le cueste".
It's basically the same as "there's no such thing as a free lunch":
everything costs, maybe in money, maybe in time, maybe in work, and
possibly on all of the above.

But hey, at least you don't have to write your own boot loader.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Jonas de Buhr]

Am Thu, 06 Oct 2011 17:23:32 -0400
schrieb Michael Orlitzky <michael@orlitzky.com>:

> > nothing forces you to switch to grub2.
> > 
> 
> True in theory, but not in practice. 

the purpose of theory is to predict what happens in practice. if it 
does't, the theory is wrong.

>Legacy grub will go away
> eventually. 

>If we have some grub-legacy and some grub2 installs, 

why would you do that?

> Either way is going to require a non-zero amount of work, while zero
> is the amount of work I would prefer to do.

have a look at the link i posted. if you really want to keep it simple,
grub2 can be configured with a single grub.cfg file.

gentoo regularly requires some manual work during upgrades. i really
don't get which this is such a big deal.

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 10/06/11 19:42, Jonas de Buhr wrote:
> 
>> If we have some grub-legacy and some grub2 installs, 
> 
> why would you do that?

Eventually, grub2 will be all that's available from portage. At that
point, I can either,

1) Install grub2 on some machines.

2) Maintain grub-legacy (and install media) myself.


> have a look at the link i posted. if you really want to keep it simple,
> grub2 can be configured with a single grub.cfg file.

How much work would it be for you to,

  * Learn grub2
  * Travel to my office here in Baltimore
  * Test it on all combinations of hardware that we currently run
  * Document the standard config and any special cases
  * Upgrade a bunch of my servers at 4am?

If you still think it's "not much" then I'd be happy to have you do it
while I drink margaritas.

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Dale]

Mick wrote:
> On Thursday 06 Oct 2011 20:42:43 Dale wrote:
>> Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>>> On 10/06/2011 04:20 AM, Jonas de Buhr wrote:
>>>> most of the "oh it's so weird"-whining often comes from just not being
>>>> used to it. flip your door lock upside down - you'll hate it with
>>>> passion for a week and then you won't even notice. flip it again and
>>>> the process will repeat.
>>> But if someone else snuck into your house and flipped your locks every
>>> week?
>>>
>>> This one change won't be catastrophic, but I will probably spend a good
>>> eight hours researching, testing, implementing, and documenting it. In
>>> the end, *if everything goes according to plan*, stuff will work exactly
>>> how it does now.
>>>
>>> If Grub were the only package to do this -- fine, whatever. But next
>>> week it will be something else. I don't know what my point is, but it
>>> feels good to bitch about it.
>> This is how I feel about the initramfs thingy and /usr and /var.  What
>> is next?  I am pretty sure it will be something tho.
> I share your pain.  :-(
>
> I'm not sure if this a sign of me getting (even) older, or Linux maturing and
> in doing so it caters less and less for Gentoo geeky users and more and more
> for mainstream ignoramuses.  :p
>

I was thinking more like windoze really.  If windoze starts having mount 
points like Linux, things could start changing.  ^_^   Think about it, 
windoze currently has to have its stuff on the C drive and Linux can be 
spread out over many drives and you can mount things wherever you want.  
Linux is going the way of windoze then windoze would be going the way of 
Linux.  Weird huh?

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Michael Mol]

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On Oct 6, 2011 11:21 PM, "Dale" <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Mick wrote:
>>
>> On Thursday 06 Oct 2011 20:42:43 Dale wrote:
>>>
>>> Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 10/06/2011 04:20 AM, Jonas de Buhr wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> most of the "oh it's so weird"-whining often comes from just not being
>>>>> used to it. flip your door lock upside down - you'll hate it with
>>>>> passion for a week and then you won't even notice. flip it again and
>>>>> the process will repeat.
>>>>
>>>> But if someone else snuck into your house and flipped your locks every
>>>> week?
>>>>
>>>> This one change won't be catastrophic, but I will probably spend a good
>>>> eight hours researching, testing, implementing, and documenting it. In
>>>> the end, *if everything goes according to plan*, stuff will work
exactly
>>>> how it does now.
>>>>
>>>> If Grub were the only package to do this -- fine, whatever. But next
>>>> week it will be something else. I don't know what my point is, but it
>>>> feels good to bitch about it.
>>>
>>> This is how I feel about the initramfs thingy and /usr and /var.  What
>>> is next?  I am pretty sure it will be something tho.
>>
>> I share your pain.  :-(
>>
>> I'm not sure if this a sign of me getting (even) older, or Linux maturing
and
>> in doing so it caters less and less for Gentoo geeky users and more and
more
>> for mainstream ignoramuses.  :p
>>
>
> I was thinking more like windoze really.  If windoze starts having mount
points like Linux, things could start changing.  ^_^   Think about it,
windoze currently has to have its stuff on the C drive and Linux can be
spread out over many drives and you can mount things wherever you want.
 Linux is going the way of windoze then windoze would be going the way of
Linux.  Weird huh?

You've been able to do this since at least WinXP. I don't know if that
functionality extends through Win2k and earlier.

On one hand, you can configure the locations of things like %PROGRAMFILES%
and %SYSTEMROOT%. On the other hand, you can mount a volume wherever you
like.

I used this to use the same .libpurple directory on a machine dual-booted
between WinXP 32-bit and WinVista 64-bit. A data volume was mounted at
D:\Data, and I had NTFS junctions pointing my .libpurple on both boots at a
directory on that volume.

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Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Dale]

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Michael Mol wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 6, 2011 11:21 PM, "Dale" <rdalek1967@gmail.com 
> <mailto:rdalek1967@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Mick wrote:
> >>
> >> On Thursday 06 Oct 2011 20:42:43 Dale wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> On 10/06/2011 04:20 AM, Jonas de Buhr wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> most of the "oh it's so weird"-whining often comes from just not 
> being
> >>>>> used to it. flip your door lock upside down - you'll hate it with
> >>>>> passion for a week and then you won't even notice. flip it again and
> >>>>> the process will repeat.
> >>>>
> >>>> But if someone else snuck into your house and flipped your locks 
> every
> >>>> week?
> >>>>
> >>>> This one change won't be catastrophic, but I will probably spend 
> a good
> >>>> eight hours researching, testing, implementing, and documenting 
> it. In
> >>>> the end, *if everything goes according to plan*, stuff will work 
> exactly
> >>>> how it does now.
> >>>>
> >>>> If Grub were the only package to do this -- fine, whatever. But next
> >>>> week it will be something else. I don't know what my point is, but it
> >>>> feels good to bitch about it.
> >>>
> >>> This is how I feel about the initramfs thingy and /usr and /var.  What
> >>> is next?  I am pretty sure it will be something tho.
> >>
> >> I share your pain.  :-(
> >>
> >> I'm not sure if this a sign of me getting (even) older, or Linux 
> maturing and
> >> in doing so it caters less and less for Gentoo geeky users and more 
> and more
> >> for mainstream ignoramuses.  :p
> >>
> >
> > I was thinking more like windoze really.  If windoze starts having 
> mount points like Linux, things could start changing.  ^_^   Think 
> about it, windoze currently has to have its stuff on the C drive and 
> Linux can be spread out over many drives and you can mount things 
> wherever you want.  Linux is going the way of windoze then windoze 
> would be going the way of Linux.  Weird huh?
>
> You've been able to do this since at least WinXP. I don't know if that 
> functionality extends through Win2k and earlier.
>
> On one hand, you can configure the locations of things like 
> %PROGRAMFILES% and %SYSTEMROOT%. On the other hand, you can mount a 
> volume wherever you like.
>
> I used this to use the same .libpurple directory on a machine 
> dual-booted between WinXP 32-bit and WinVista 64-bit. A data volume 
> was mounted at D:\Data, and I had NTFS junctions pointing my 
> .libpurple on both boots at a directory on that volume.
>

Hmmmm, this is interesting.  My brother has filled up his hard drive and 
I been planning on reinstalling to a larger drive.  Maybe I need to 
check into this more.  He uses XP and I really hate to install windoze.  
Since he had to spend $8,000.00 on a new mower, his new rig went to 
second place in the budget.  This could be the place for the next couple 
years.  Uhh, he mows grass for a living.  Anyway, putting Documents on 
its own drive would save me some grief.

So, windoze is catching up to Linux since Linux is regressing.  Man, 
this is weird.

Dale

:-)  :-)

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Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Jonas de Buhr]

Am 07.10.2011 02:55, schrieb Michael Orlitzky:
> On 10/06/11 19:42, Jonas de Buhr wrote:
>>> If we have some grub-legacy and some grub2 installs,
>> why would you do that?
> Eventually, grub2 will be all that's available from portage. At that
> point, I can either,
>
> 1) Install grub2 on some machines.
>
> 2) Maintain grub-legacy (and install media) myself.

i really don't think thats the way its going to be. i think there will 
be grub and grub2 in portage potentially forever. like with python 2 and 3.

even if not, 2) takes you one cp command and a little bit of disk space 
for the grub tarball.

>
>
>> have a look at the link i posted. if you really want to keep it simple,
>> grub2 can be configured with a single grub.cfg file.
> How much work would it be for you to,
>
>    * Learn grub2
if you're ok with the single .cfg: done.
>    * Travel to my office here in Baltimore
first class flight please.
>    * Test it on all combinations of hardware that we currently run
>    * Document the standard config and any special cases
ok.
>    * Upgrade a bunch of my servers at 4am?
why not choose a convenient time to upgrade?
>
> If you still think it's "not much" then I'd be happy to have you do it
> while I drink margaritas.
no, i still don't think its as much of a big deal as you make of it. 
about as much work as a kernel upgrade. let's wait for grub2 to go 
stable before you send me that ticket ;)

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 20:55:05 -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:

> How much work would it be for you to,
> 
>   * Learn grub2

About the same as it would be for you, very little.

The config has moved from /boot/grub to /etc/grub.d and the syntax has
changed slightly.

Note that, BY DEFAULT, grub2 comes with a file for you to add your manual
configurations. If it weren't for the confusing idea of putting some of
the settings in a different location, the learning curve would be trivial.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

"Everything takes longer than expected, even when you take
  into account Hoffstead's Law." - Hoffstead's Law

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Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 10/07/2011 04:47 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 20:55:05 -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> 
>> How much work would it be for you to,
>>
>>   * Learn grub2
> 
> About the same as it would be for you, very little.

Granted, this is the easy one on my list.

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 10/07/2011 03:36 AM, Jonas de Buhr wrote:
> Am 07.10.2011 02:55, schrieb Michael Orlitzky:
>> On 10/06/11 19:42, Jonas de Buhr wrote:
>>>> If we have some grub-legacy and some grub2 installs,
>>> why would you do that?
>> Eventually, grub2 will be all that's available from portage. At that
>> point, I can either,
>>
>> 1) Install grub2 on some machines.
>>
>> 2) Maintain grub-legacy (and install media) myself.
> 
> i really don't think thats the way its going to be. i think there will 
> be grub and grub2 in portage potentially forever. like with python 2 and 3.
> 
> even if not, 2) takes you one cp command and a little bit of disk space 
> for the grub tarball.

Python2 will stick around because most packages (portage!) don't work
with python3. Grub doesn't have the same problem.

(2) requires me to at least,

  * Figure out how to build a Gentoo install CD
  * Fork grub-legacy on our servers somewhere
  * Test it against all future kernel releases
  * Document why we're doing this, and how to do the first three steps.


>>    * Upgrade a bunch of my servers at 4am?
> why not choose a convenient time to upgrade?

4am *is* the convenient time to upgrade.


>> If you still think it's "not much" then I'd be happy to have you do it
>> while I drink margaritas.
> no, i still don't think its as much of a big deal as you make of it. 
> about as much work as a kernel upgrade. let's wait for grub2 to go 
> stable before you send me that ticket ;)

This fails as a debate strategy since you wouldn't have to pay my
mortgage and feed me if you screwed up =)

Kernel upgrades usually take me a full day. I get to skip most of the
documentation step, but have to deal with heterogeneous configs. I'm not
saying that this is some huge problem on a cosmic scale, but it is going
to waste a day and risk downtime for no user-visible benefit.

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hi, Michael.

On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 08:55:05PM -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> On 10/06/11 19:42, Jonas de Buhr wrote:

> >> If we have some grub-legacy and some grub2 installs, 

> > why would you do that?

> Eventually, grub2 will be all that's available from portage. At that
> point, I can either,

> 1) Install grub2 on some machines.

> 2) Maintain grub-legacy (and install media) myself.

> > have a look at the link i posted. if you really want to keep it simple,
> > grub2 can be configured with a single grub.cfg file.

> How much work would it be for you to,

>   * Learn grub2
>   * Travel to my office here in Baltimore
>   * Test it on all combinations of hardware that we currently run
>   * Document the standard config and any special cases
>   * Upgrade a bunch of my servers at 4am?

> If you still think it's "not much" then I'd be happy to have you do it
> while I drink margaritas.

Why don't you upgrade to lilo instead?  It's got a single configuration
file which is short and relatively simple, and it just works.  My
lilo.conf has 50 non-comment/space lines, and that includes 8 kernel
versions.

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Brennan Shacklett]

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> Python2 will stick around because most packages (portage!) don't work
> with python3. Grub doesn't have the same problem.
>
>
Just to be pedantic, portage uses python3 if the python3 use flag is
enabled.

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Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 10/07/2011 10:29 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> 
> Why don't you upgrade to lilo instead?  It's got a single configuration
> file which is short and relatively simple, and it just works.  My
> lilo.conf has 50 non-comment/space lines, and that includes 8 kernel
> versions.
> 

Why don't I avoid $difficult_thing by doing
$equally_difficult_other_thing? =)

If I thought lilo was going to be around longer than grub2, it might
make sense. I'm gambling on that one.

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 10/07/2011 10:46 AM, Brennan Shacklett wrote:
> 
>     Python2 will stick around because most packages (portage!) don't work
>     with python3. Grub doesn't have the same problem.
> 
> 
> Just to be pedantic, portage uses python3 if the python3 use flag is
> enabled.
> 

That's not being pedantic; it looks like I'm outdated on this one.

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Dale]

Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> On 10/07/2011 10:29 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>> Why don't you upgrade to lilo instead?  It's got a single configuration
>> file which is short and relatively simple, and it just works.  My
>> lilo.conf has 50 non-comment/space lines, and that includes 8 kernel
>> versions.
>>
> Why don't I avoid $difficult_thing by doing
> $equally_difficult_other_thing? =)
>
> If I thought lilo was going to be around longer than grub2, it might
> make sense. I'm gambling on that one.
>
>

Not to mention you have to run lilo when you update kernels and other 
things too.  I used lilo when I first started using Linux.  I can't 
imagine me ever going back to that thing.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Paul Hartman]

On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>>
>> On 10/07/2011 10:29 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>>>
>>> Why don't you upgrade to lilo instead?  It's got a single configuration
>>> file which is short and relatively simple, and it just works.  My
>>> lilo.conf has 50 non-comment/space lines, and that includes 8 kernel
>>> versions.
>>>
>> Why don't I avoid $difficult_thing by doing
>> $equally_difficult_other_thing? =)
>>
>> If I thought lilo was going to be around longer than grub2, it might
>> make sense. I'm gambling on that one.
>>
>>
>
> Not to mention you have to run lilo when you update kernels and other things
> too.  I used lilo when I first started using Linux.  I can't imagine me ever
> going back to that thing.

Back in the mid 90's I used to use a boot floppy to dual-boot, I think
it was LILO... Floppy in, it booted Debian, floppy out, it booted
OS/2. One day, someone took the floppy and reformatted it to copy some
files onto it; that seriously hindered my ability to boot Linux at
that time. :)

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Jonas de Buhr]

Am Fri, 07 Oct 2011 09:59:54 -0400
schrieb Michael Orlitzky <michael@orlitzky.com>:

> On 10/07/2011 03:36 AM, Jonas de Buhr wrote:
> > Am 07.10.2011 02:55, schrieb Michael Orlitzky:
> >> On 10/06/11 19:42, Jonas de Buhr wrote:
> >>>> If we have some grub-legacy and some grub2 installs,
> >>> why would you do that?
> >> Eventually, grub2 will be all that's available from portage. At
> >> that point, I can either,
> >>
> >> 1) Install grub2 on some machines.
> >>
> >> 2) Maintain grub-legacy (and install media) myself.
> > 
> > i really don't think thats the way its going to be. i think there
> > will be grub and grub2 in portage potentially forever. like with
> > python 2 and 3.
> > 
> > even if not, 2) takes you one cp command and a little bit of disk
> > space for the grub tarball.
> 
> Python2 will stick around because most packages (portage!) don't work
> with python3. Grub doesn't have the same problem.
> 
> (2) requires me to at least,
> 
>   * Figure out how to build a Gentoo install CD
>   * Fork grub-legacy on our servers somewhere

build a package and put it on an ftp. monitor the bug-grub mailing list
for critical bugs. repeat.
or mirror it daily and autobuild the package.
no need to build an install cd or fork grub. but it is true that this is
less convenient than portage. its probably less work to switch to grub2
IF grub legacy really ever gets thrown out of portage. mixing both is
the worst idea in my opinion.

>   * Test it against all future kernel releases
>   * Document why we're doing this, and how to do the first three
> steps.
> 
> 
> >>    * Upgrade a bunch of my servers at 4am?
> > why not choose a convenient time to upgrade?
> 
> 4am *is* the convenient time to upgrade.
> 
> >> If you still think it's "not much" then I'd be happy to have you
> >> do it while I drink margaritas.
> > no, i still don't think its as much of a big deal as you make of
> > it. about as much work as a kernel upgrade. let's wait for grub2 to
> > go stable before you send me that ticket ;)
> 
> This fails as a debate strategy since you wouldn't have to pay my
> mortgage and feed me if you screwed up =)

hey, that was *your* idea in the first place ;)

> Kernel upgrades usually take me a full day. I get to skip most of the
> documentation step, but have to deal with heterogeneous configs. 

out of interest: why do you have different configs? even if you have
different hardware you could still build a "one fits all"-kernel. or
are they that specialized?

>I'm
> not saying that this is some huge problem on a cosmic scale, but it
> is going to waste a day and risk downtime for no user-visible benefit.

lets just agree on that. im kinda tired of this discussion. there's
nothing we can do about it anyway.

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 10/07/2011 12:16 PM, Jonas de Buhr wrote:
> 
> out of interest: why do you have different configs? even if you have
> different hardware you could still build a "one fits all"-kernel. or
> are they that specialized?
> 

We share kernel config whenever possible, but there are a few cases
where they have to diverge. Basically any option that can't be compiled
as a module is a candidate. Off the top of my head,

  * We've got x86/amd64
  * Intel/AMD
  * A couple with RAID hardware that can't have its module installed.
  * One server with a tulip NIC that can't use a particular driver.
  * A set where hyperthreading needs to be disabled
  * A virtual machine host that needs certain hardening features
    disabled
  * A separate config for VM guests
  * Headless vs. GUI requires more grsec/pax tweaking
  * Different HZ settings. Power management in general depends on what
    the box will be doing.
  * A firewall with no non-essential modules available

We keep the configs in git, so if two are similar I can usually just
pull the last changeset (after a make oldconfig) over. What sucks is
testing, and of course driving to work to reboot everything off-hours.


> lets just agree on that. im kinda tired of this discussion. there's
> nothing we can do about it anyway.
> 

Agreed.

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Mick]

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On Friday 07 Oct 2011 08:25:36 Dale wrote:
> Michael Mol wrote:

> > On one hand, you can configure the locations of things like
> > %PROGRAMFILES% and %SYSTEMROOT%. On the other hand, you can mount a
> > volume wherever you like.
> > 
> > I used this to use the same .libpurple directory on a machine
> > dual-booted between WinXP 32-bit and WinVista 64-bit. A data volume
> > was mounted at D:\Data, and I had NTFS junctions pointing my
> > .libpurple on both boots at a directory on that volume.
> 
> Hmmmm, this is interesting.  My brother has filled up his hard drive and
> I been planning on reinstalling to a larger drive.  Maybe I need to
> check into this more.  He uses XP and I really hate to install windoze.
> Since he had to spend $8,000.00 on a new mower, his new rig went to
> second place in the budget.  This could be the place for the next couple
> years.  Uhh, he mows grass for a living.  Anyway, putting Documents on
> its own drive would save me some grief.

You will get some space back if you move all the backup files created with 
MSWindows updates out of C:\ (but not the index which is needed to be able to 
update it properly).  If space is running out fast, then you may have a 
corrupt page file.  Delete it and move it to another drive/partition.

Finally, clear all cruft in /temp directory (somewhere under local settings) 
for each user.

If you have another drive, move all his data out of C:\  then defrag and 
shrink the partition a bit, create new partition(s) and install Linux!  ;-)
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] OT: change and improvement

[Dale]

Mick wrote:
> On Friday 07 Oct 2011 08:25:36 Dale wrote:
>> Michael Mol wrote:
>>> On one hand, you can configure the locations of things like
>>> %PROGRAMFILES% and %SYSTEMROOT%. On the other hand, you can mount a
>>> volume wherever you like.
>>>
>>> I used this to use the same .libpurple directory on a machine
>>> dual-booted between WinXP 32-bit and WinVista 64-bit. A data volume
>>> was mounted at D:\Data, and I had NTFS junctions pointing my
>>> .libpurple on both boots at a directory on that volume.
>> Hmmmm, this is interesting.  My brother has filled up his hard drive and
>> I been planning on reinstalling to a larger drive.  Maybe I need to
>> check into this more.  He uses XP and I really hate to install windoze.
>> Since he had to spend $8,000.00 on a new mower, his new rig went to
>> second place in the budget.  This could be the place for the next couple
>> years.  Uhh, he mows grass for a living.  Anyway, putting Documents on
>> its own drive would save me some grief.
> You will get some space back if you move all the backup files created with
> MSWindows updates out of C:\ (but not the index which is needed to be able to
> update it properly).  If space is running out fast, then you may have a
> corrupt page file.  Delete it and move it to another drive/partition.
>
> Finally, clear all cruft in /temp directory (somewhere under local settings)
> for each user.
>
> If you have another drive, move all his data out of C:\  then defrag and
> shrink the partition a bit, create new partition(s) and install Linux!  ;-)

Well, I don't know much about windoze.  He currently has a 40Gb drive 
that only has about 2Gbs left.  I need to google for a howto or 
something.  I got a 80Gb drive that I wish I could scoot it over onto.

He does want Linux tho.  We were planning to build a new rig like mine 
but he had to buy a new mower.  He mows grass for a living and the new 
mower was over $8,000.00.  The new rig is on the back burner now.  He 
has a prebuilt rig right now, Gateway I think.  I would be scared to 
compile Gentoo on that stock heat sink.  It is a single core ~1.8Ghz 
with about 768Mbs of ram.  It is maxed out ram wise and the CPU won't 
take much improvement either.  It would take me days to install even if 
it had a nice heat sink on the CPU.  I was thinking Mandrake, bunto, 
slack or something.  I been using Gentoo so long, I don't even know what 
else is out there anymore.  lol

See the problem?  Some of it me.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-)