[gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Nikos Chantziaras]

Is there a secret plan in place to keep users from being able to use Gtk 
2 in packages that support both Gtk 2 and 3?  And if yes, why?  Is the 
user considered too stupid to grasp the awesomeness of Gtk 3 so that the 
devs have to force the choice upon them?

I'm talking about this:

   http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=374057

So why should users not be able to choose Gtk 2 with a USE flag?  What 
is the reason people use Gentoo?  Isn't one of them the ability of being 
able to rebuild packages with different USE flags?

And what is happening to the developers lately?  Some of them have 
become hostile and arrogant against their own users.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[pk]

On 2011-07-06 18:35, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:

> And what is happening to the developers lately?  Some of them have
> become hostile and arrogant against their own users.

I noted the same from the same guy a while back. Really "grumpy" and you
can't argue with him either... But then again, there's nothing stopping
either of us from becoming developers and to be friendly towards our
fellow Gentooers... Well, except time that I don't have to invest into
doing that so I'm very grateful that people (developers) have time to
invest. So: Kudos to the developers (grumpy or not)!

"I'm late, I'm late! For a very important date!..." ;-)

PS. Gentoo infrastructure also allows supporting your own ebuilds...

Best regards

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wednesday 06 July 2011 19:23:51 pk did opine thusly:
> On 2011-07-06 18:35, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> > And what is happening to the developers lately?  Some of them
> > have become hostile and arrogant against their own users.
> 
> I noted the same from the same guy a while back. Really "grumpy" and
> you can't argue with him either... But then again, there's nothing
> stopping either of us from becoming developers and to be friendly
> towards our fellow Gentooers... Well, except time that I don't have
> to invest into doing that so I'm very grateful that people
> (developers) have time to invest. So: Kudos to the developers
> (grumpy or not)!
> 
> "I'm late, I'm late! For a very important date!..." ;-)
> 
> PS. Gentoo infrastructure also allows supporting your own ebuilds...

Holy shit, that attitude from Samuli sucks big balls big time.

He's always come across to me as an OK dev, never seen him pull THAT 
stunt before.

Devs get a certain amount of leeway and tolerance from users because 
of what they do as volunteers. But there's a line somewhere and in my 
view arbitrarily deciding to obsolete a toolkit just because you feel 
like it crosses that like. Following that up with a "fuck off and stop 
re-opening the ticket" is even worse.

You'll note I used the verb "obsolete" and not "deprecate", that is 
deliberate. He has not deprecated gtk+-2 in spite of naming it that, 
he is trying to obsolete it without going through the gradual 
dwindling away that deprecation is designed to encourage.


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[pk]

On 2011-07-06 21:37, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> Holy shit, that attitude from Samuli sucks big balls big time.

Yes, fully agree.

> He's always come across to me as an OK dev, never seen him pull THAT 
> stunt before.

I've seen it, although he does come across as an OK dev to me as well.
He can argue technically, when he feels like it...

> Devs get a certain amount of leeway and tolerance from users because 
> of what they do as volunteers. But there's a line somewhere and in my 
> view arbitrarily deciding to obsolete a toolkit just because you feel 

Yes, but what can we do about it? Force him (I assume he's volunteering
and is not payed for his work) to continue supporting it? Well, I assume
we could pay him... or something.

> like it crosses that like. Following that up with a "fuck off and stop 
> re-opening the ticket" is even worse.

Yes, really bad.

> You'll note I used the verb "obsolete" and not "deprecate", that is 
> deliberate. He has not deprecated gtk+-2 in spite of naming it that, 
> he is trying to obsolete it without going through the gradual 
> dwindling away that deprecation is designed to encourage.

Worrisome.

Best regards

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wednesday 06 July 2011 22:02:03 pk did opine thusly:
> > Devs get a certain amount of leeway and tolerance from users
> > because  of what they do as volunteers. But there's a line
> > somewhere and in my view arbitrarily deciding to obsolete a
> > toolkit just because you feel
> 
> Yes, but what can we do about it? Force him (I assume he's
> volunteering and is not payed for his work) to continue supporting
> it? Well, I assume we could pay him... or something.

Well, there's really only one thing that appeals to your average dev 
in any area:

Treat them like a dev and appeal to their better judgement.

One can recognise that a dev is acting like a total dick, but pointing 
it out gets you nowhere. I refer you to my vast experience of 
attempting to do the same with the devs I work with :-) It also 
applies to sysadmins, people who (embarrassingly) point out that I am 
a complete jerk lots of the time tend to get nowhere to.

Reasoned, well supported arguments coupled with a little ego-stroking 
is what motivates most devs. Nikos' last comment on the bug is a good 
one - asking for a list of supported gnome apps in the tree that 
require gtk+-2.

It does require that one put aside one's urges to pull this off. Price 
of the trade we work in, I suppose.


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Wednesday 06 July 2011 22:41:25 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Wednesday 06 July 2011 22:02:03 pk did opine thusly:
> > > Devs get a certain amount of leeway and tolerance from users> > because  
of what they do as volunteers. But there's a line> > somewhere and in my view 
arbitrarily deciding to obsolete a> > toolkit just because you feel> 
> > Yes, but what can we do about it? Force him (I assume he's> volunteering 
and is not payed for his work) to continue supporting> it? Well, I assume we 
could pay him... or something.
> Well, there's really only one thing that appeals to your average devin any 
area:
> Treat them like a dev and appeal to their better judgement.
> One can recognise that a dev is acting like a total dick, but pointingit out 
gets you nowhere. I refer you to my vast experience ofattempting to do the 
same with the devs I work with :-) It alsoapplies to sysadmins, people who 
(embarrassingly) point out that I ama complete jerk lots of the time tend to 
get nowhere to.
> Reasoned, well supported arguments coupled with a little ego-strokingis what 
motivates most devs. Nikos' last comment on the bug is a goodone - asking for 
a list of supported gnome apps in the tree thatrequire gtk+-2.
> It does require that one put aside one's urges to pull this off. Priceof the 
trade we work in, I suppose.

and/or take the whole mess to -dev...

I couldn't care less about gtk stuff - but forcing gtk3 just because - and 
that on a package where gtk3 is the worse choice... not a smart move.

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Dale]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>
> and/or take the whole mess to -dev...
>
> I couldn't care less about gtk stuff - but forcing gtk3 just because - and
> that on a package where gtk3 is the worse choice... not a smart move.
>
>    

This sounds like the move KDE made with KDE4.  I have some gtk stuff on 
here but I'm not sure how much I actually use it.  The new version may 
be good one day but if it is not ready yet, why not wait until it is?

I dunno.  Deja vu ?  That spelled right?

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Thursday 07 July 2011 00:06:31 Dale wrote:

> Deja vu ?  That spelled right?

Yep (give or take the odd accent).

-- 
Rgds
Peter

[gentoo-user] Re: Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 07/07/2011 02:06 AM, Dale wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>
>> and/or take the whole mess to -dev...
>>
>> I couldn't care less about gtk stuff - but forcing gtk3 just because -
>> and
>> that on a package where gtk3 is the worse choice... not a smart move.
>>
>
> This sounds like the move KDE made with KDE4. I have some gtk stuff on
> here but I'm not sure how much I actually use it. The new version may be
> good one day but if it is not ready yet, why not wait until it is?

This is not about Gnome though.  It's about Gtk.  And portage never 
removed older versions, unlike Qt.  Try:

   eix -e gtk+

Hell, there's still version 1.2.10 lurking in there!  What are the 
chances there would be a Qt 1.x in portage?

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Dale]

Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> On 07/07/2011 02:06 AM, Dale wrote:
>> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>>
>>> and/or take the whole mess to -dev...
>>>
>>> I couldn't care less about gtk stuff - but forcing gtk3 just because -
>>> and
>>> that on a package where gtk3 is the worse choice... not a smart move.
>>>
>>
>> This sounds like the move KDE made with KDE4. I have some gtk stuff on
>> here but I'm not sure how much I actually use it. The new version may be
>> good one day but if it is not ready yet, why not wait until it is?
>
> This is not about Gnome though.  It's about Gtk.  And portage never 
> removed older versions, unlike Qt.  Try:
>
>   eix -e gtk+
>
> Hell, there's still version 1.2.10 lurking in there!  What are the 
> chances there would be a Qt 1.x in portage?
>
>

I didn't mention Gnome.  I have some gnome stuff on here but don't use 
the desktop itself.  I just made the comparison to KDE3 being dropped 
when it was well known that KDE4 still needed some time to get some 
kinks worked out.  From what was posted here, I got the impression that 
gtk2 is being dropped when gtk3 is not . . . well quite ready yet.

Just saying.  :/

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 07/06/11 15:37, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Wednesday 06 July 2011 19:23:51 pk did opine thusly:
>> On 2011-07-06 18:35, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>>> And what is happening to the developers lately?  Some of them
>>> have become hostile and arrogant against their own users.
>>
>> I noted the same from the same guy a while back. Really "grumpy" and
>> you can't argue with him either... But then again, there's nothing
>> stopping either of us from becoming developers and to be friendly
>> towards our fellow Gentooers... Well, except time that I don't have
>> to invest into doing that so I'm very grateful that people
>> (developers) have time to invest. So: Kudos to the developers
>> (grumpy or not)!
>>
>> "I'm late, I'm late! For a very important date!..." ;-)
>>
>> PS. Gentoo infrastructure also allows supporting your own ebuilds...
> 
> Holy shit, that attitude from Samuli sucks big balls big time.
> 
> He's always come across to me as an OK dev, never seen him pull THAT 
> stunt before.

For what it's worth, I was expecting much worse. In his defense, the
commenters list a bunch of bugs in *other* packages as the reason why
they want to retain gtk2 support in the gnome-mplayer ebuild.

Per comment 21, the Gnome team suggests that packages use the latest
version of gtk that works.

The gnome-mplayer package is supported on the alpha, amd64, ppc, ppc64,
x86, and x86-fbsd arches. Adding a gtk2 USE flag means that the testing
load would be doubled; that the maintainer would have to recompile the
package six times on six different machines to make sure that it runs
with gtk2.

Then, to go stable (in addition to now being tied to the stable gtk2),
the arch testers would have to re-test on all six of those arches.

So, the additional burden isn't so small as it's made out to be in the
comments.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Thursday 07 July 2011 13:42:24 Michael Orlitzky did opine thusly:
> > Holy shit, that attitude from Samuli sucks big balls big time.
> >
> > 
> >
> > He's always come across to me as an OK dev, never seen him pull
> > THAT  stunt before.
> 
> For what it's worth, I was expecting much worse. In his defense, the
> commenters list a bunch of bugs in other packages as the reason why
> they want to retain gtk2 support in the gnome-mplayer ebuild.
> 
> Per comment 21, the Gnome team suggests that packages use the latest
> version of gtk that works.

Yes, that's "suggests" they use "that latest that works", not 
"demands", "insists", "mandates" or "requires", and not "only the 
latest version that works".

> The gnome-mplayer package is supported on the alpha, amd64, ppc,
> ppc64, x86, and x86-fbsd arches. Adding a gtk2 USE flag means that
> the testing load would be doubled; that the maintainer would have
> to recompile the package six times on six different machines to
> make sure that it runs with gtk2.
> 
> Then, to go stable (in addition to now being tied to the stable
> gtk2), the arch testers would have to re-test on all six of those
> arches.
> 
> So, the additional burden isn't so small as it's made out to be in
> the comments.

And what about gnome? Does that not impose a fantastic testing burden, 
alongside which gnome-mplayer is small in comparison?

How about the devs relook at this and do it sanely. When the major 
consumer of gtk+ (gnome itself) has a stable gtk+-3 very in stable, 
then other packages follow suit, not before.


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 07/07/11 15:36, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> 
> And what about gnome? Does that not impose a fantastic testing burden, 
> alongside which gnome-mplayer is small in comparison?

Yes, but the value of one's time isn't relative. If you'll allow me to
make up the numbers, just because it takes a month of time to test Gnome
doesn't mean that the day it would take to test gnome-mplayer is any
less valuable. In those eight hours you can still drink the same number
of beers, read the same number of books, or -- hell, in this case -- fix
the same number of bugs in other packages.


> How about the devs relook at this and do it sanely. When the major 
> consumer of gtk+ (gnome itself) has a stable gtk+-3 very in stable, 
> then other packages follow suit, not before.

I don't think anyone would disagree that this is nice to have; you just
have to find someone to do the work. Writing ebuilds is fun, setting up
test environments and recompiling all day is not.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Dale]

Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> recompiling all day is not.
>
>    

After the past several days, I can confirm this 100%.  I'm on about my 
third emerge -e world now.  Waiting on OOo to finish.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Thursday 07 July 2011 21:47:25 Dale wrote:

> Waiting on OOo to finish.

Have you not switched to LibreOffice then?

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Dale]

Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Thursday 07 July 2011 21:47:25 Dale wrote:
>
>    
>> Waiting on OOo to finish.
>>      
> Have you not switched to LibreOffice then?
>
>    

I prefer OOo.  I just forgot to comment it out of my world file before 
my emerge -e world this time.  Sort of got a lot on my brain right now.  :/

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[微菜]

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On 2011年07月08日 04:01, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> On 07/07/11 15:36, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>
>> And what about gnome? Does that not impose a fantastic testing burden, 
>> alongside which gnome-mplayer is small in comparison?
> 
> Yes, but the value of one's time isn't relative. If you'll allow me to
> make up the numbers, just because it takes a month of time to test Gnome
> doesn't mean that the day it would take to test gnome-mplayer is any
> less valuable. In those eight hours you can still drink the same number
> of beers, read the same number of books, or -- hell, in this case -- fix
> the same number of bugs in other packages.

The time when you reply this message, you've already done that test

> 
> 
>> How about the devs relook at this and do it sanely. When the major 
>> consumer of gtk+ (gnome itself) has a stable gtk+-3 very in stable, 
>> then other packages follow suit, not before.
> 
> I don't think anyone would disagree that this is nice to have; you just
> have to find someone to do the work. Writing ebuilds is fun, setting up
> test environments and recompiling all day is not.
> 



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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Wednesday 06 July 2011 19:35:05 Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> Is there a secret plan in place to keep users from being able to use Gtk2 in 
packages that support both Gtk 2 and 3?  And if yes, why?  Is theuser 
considered too stupid to grasp the awesomeness of Gtk 3 so that thedevs have 
to force the choice upon them?
> I'm talking about this:
>    http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=374057
> So why should users not be able to choose Gtk 2 with a USE flag?  Whatis the 
reason people use Gentoo?  Isn't one of them the ability of beingable to 
rebuild packages with different USE flags?
> And what is happening to the developers lately?  Some of them havebecome 
hostile and arrogant against their own users.

well, he acts like he took a huge sip from the gnome 'options and choices are 
bad 'mkay' jug.

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[微菜]

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Devs can do what ever they think are right. Don't argue with them unless
you pay them. Want gtk2 support? Put your ebuild in your personal overlay.


On 2011年07月07日 00:35, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> Is there a secret plan in place to keep users from being able to use Gtk
> 2 in packages that support both Gtk 2 and 3?  And if yes, why?  Is the
> user considered too stupid to grasp the awesomeness of Gtk 3 so that the
> devs have to force the choice upon them?
> 
> I'm talking about this:
> 
>   http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=374057
> 
> So why should users not be able to choose Gtk 2 with a USE flag?  What
> is the reason people use Gentoo?  Isn't one of them the ability of being
> able to rebuild packages with different USE flags?
> 
> And what is happening to the developers lately?  Some of them have
> become hostile and arrogant against their own users.
> 
> 


-- 
我是天马博士，对，就是创造了阿童木的那个天马博士


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[gentoo-user] Re: Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 07/07/2011 05:12 AM, 微菜 wrote:
> Devs can do what ever they think are right. Don't argue with them unless
> you pay them.

Who died and made *them* kings?  Here's what gentoo.org claims:

"Gentoo is a free operating system based on either Linux or FreeBSD that 
can be automatically optimized and customized for just about any 
application or need."

"Of course, Gentoo is more than just the software it provides. It is a 
community built around a distribution which is driven by more than 300 
developers and thousands of users."

There you have it.  It is driven not only by devs, but by users too.  So 
yes, I'm going to argue with them.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[微菜]

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On 2011年07月07日 10:45, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> On 07/07/2011 05:12 AM, 微菜 wrote:
>> Devs can do what ever they think are right. Don't argue with them unless
>> you pay them.
> 
> Who died and made *them* kings?  Here's what gentoo.org claims:

They have commit rights, that's why they think they are kings. Hey, even
the creator had lost those rights.

If they move on to gtk3, I think at least they provide a way to build
against gtk2 but mask the USE flags.


> 
> "Gentoo is a free operating system based on either Linux or FreeBSD that
> can be automatically optimized and customized for just about any
> application or need."
> 
> "Of course, Gentoo is more than just the software it provides. It is a
> community built around a distribution which is driven by more than 300
> developers and thousands of users."
> 
> There you have it.  It is driven not only by devs, but by users too.  So
> yes, I'm going to argue with them.
> 
> 


-- 
我是天马博士，对，就是创造了阿童木的那个天马博士


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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Thursday 07 July 2011 10:12:43 微菜 did opine thusly:
> Devs can do what ever they think are right. Don't argue with them
> unless you pay them. Want gtk2 support? Put your ebuild in your
> personal overlay.

Gentoo users have developed a certain expectation over the years, 
whereby devs will take user needs seriously and go to extra-ordinary 
lengths to support everything under the sun.

That's what Gentoo does. That's how the system by and large works, and 
that's what users have come to expect. It's unreasonable for a dev to 
think they can willy-nilly change that based SOLELY on their own 
opinion, as the greater community was not built around that behaviour.

Commit rights never gave a dev that power.


> 
> On 2011年07月07日 00:35, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> > Is there a secret plan in place to keep users from being able to
> > use Gtk 2 in packages that support both Gtk 2 and 3?  And if
> > yes, why?  Is the user considered too stupid to grasp the
> > awesomeness of Gtk 3 so that the devs have to force the choice
> > upon them?
> > 
> > I'm talking about this:
> >   http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=374057
> > 
> > So why should users not be able to choose Gtk 2 with a USE flag?
> >  What is the reason people use Gentoo?  Isn't one of them the
> > ability of being able to rebuild packages with different USE
> > flags?
> > 
> > And what is happening to the developers lately?  Some of them
> > have become hostile and arrogant against their own users.
-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Stroller]

On 7 July 2011, at 08:30, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Thursday 07 July 2011 10:12:43 微菜 did opine thusly:
>> Devs can do what ever they think are right. Don't argue with them
>> unless you pay them. Want gtk2 support? Put your ebuild in your
>> personal overlay.
> 
> Gentoo users have developed a certain expectation over the years, 
> whereby devs will take user needs seriously and go to extra-ordinary 
> lengths to support everything under the sun.
> 
> That's what Gentoo does. That's how the system by and large works, and 
> that's what users have come to expect. It's unreasonable for a dev to 
> think they can willy-nilly change that based SOLELY on their own 
> opinion, as the greater community was not built around that behaviour.


LOL!

I'm afraid I have come to the expectation that a Gentoo dev's opinion is unswayable, like a mighty oak. If a Gentoo dev decides "this is the best way to do things" then you really have no chance of convincing him otherwise, IME. 

I have come to this conclusion over several years of bug reports and reading the gentoo-dev mailing list (though not recently). Anyone trying to appeal a bug report to that list for further discussion (as I have once done myself, as others have done and Nicos has kinda done here) will be characterised as "whining about a dev's decision" and told off for it.

Ubuntu users complain sometimes about similar things (such as Unity), about their bug reports being marked as WONTFIX, but their devs seem generally politer and more ready to explain their reasons than Gentoo devs. Discussing with a Gentoo dev has often felt to me like striking a hard rock wall.

Whilst I think Nicos is probably right, I have to say that I don't think he has done himself any favours here with comments #8 & #12. "I will reopen this [bug]. And I will keep reopening it indefinitely. Every time you close it, I will open it again." After being told by the dev not to! I mean, I think the problem is (probably) the dev's stubbornness, but that ain't going to win any friends and influence people.

A better thing to do, for instance, might have been to open another bug based on Nico's assertion that "gnome-mplayer looks ugly under KDE". You could add a screenshot for that, and even state that the fix is reinstating the GTK2 USE flag. But my experience is that arguing with a rock doesn't get you anywhere.

Stroller.



[1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=374057#c8

[gentoo-user] Re: Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[walt]

On 07/07/2011 05:07 AM, Stroller wrote:
> Ubuntu users complain sometimes about similar things (such as Unity),
> about their bug reports being marked as WONTFIX, but their devs seem
> generally politer and more ready to explain their reasons than Gentoo
> devs.

IIUC the ubuntu devs are employees of Canonical, or at least the lead
devs are.  I dunno if ubuntu includes volunteer devs or not.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 07 Jul 2011 15:50:31 -0700, walt wrote:

> IIUC the ubuntu devs are employees of Canonical, or at least the lead
> devs are.  I dunno if ubuntu includes volunteer devs or not.

It does, they're called Debian devs :P


-- 
Neil Bothwick

A clean desk is a sign of a cluttered desk drawer.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[pk]

On 2011-07-07 09:30, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> Gentoo users have developed a certain expectation over the years, 
> whereby devs will take user needs seriously and go to extra-ordinary 
> lengths to support everything under the sun.
> 
> That's what Gentoo does. That's how the system by and large works, and 
> that's what users have come to expect. It's unreasonable for a dev to 
> think they can willy-nilly change that based SOLELY on their own 
> opinion, as the greater community was not built around that behaviour.

I think so too. There should be some sort of consensus, at least among
the developers (I think most, that I've come across, are reasonable and
listen to us users) before they do something like this... In a sense,
removing options (USE) at the sole discretion of the developer will make
Gentoo look like any other Linux distro. Options that the user can
decide is what makes Gentoo unique.

Best regards

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Mark Knecht]

On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 9:44 AM, pk <peterk2@coolmail.se> wrote:
> On 2011-07-07 09:30, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>
>> Gentoo users have developed a certain expectation over the years,
>> whereby devs will take user needs seriously and go to extra-ordinary
>> lengths to support everything under the sun.
>>
>> That's what Gentoo does. That's how the system by and large works, and
>> that's what users have come to expect. It's unreasonable for a dev to
>> think they can willy-nilly change that based SOLELY on their own
>> opinion, as the greater community was not built around that behaviour.
>
> I think so too. There should be some sort of consensus, at least among
> the developers (I think most, that I've come across, are reasonable and
> listen to us users) before they do something like this... In a sense,
> removing options (USE) at the sole discretion of the developer will make
> Gentoo look like any other Linux distro. Options that the user can
> decide is what makes Gentoo unique.
>
> Best regards
>
> Peter K

+1, although what we don't know from reading only the bug report is
whether the decision was in fact made by the individual dev or is part
of a larger consensus in the dev community. Without that info I don't
think it's appropriate to draw any specific conclusions about what is
motivating this change.

I do think that if the user community was to ask the dev community
(nicely now!) ;-) about this that we'd get a reasonable answer, or at
least some greater understanding of what's driving the decision.

Cheers,
Mark

[gentoo-user] Re: Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 07/07/2011 10:30 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Thursday 07 July 2011 10:12:43 微菜 did opine thusly:
>> Devs can do what ever they think are right. Don't argue with them
>> unless you pay them. Want gtk2 support? Put your ebuild in your
>> personal overlay.
>
> Gentoo users have developed a certain expectation over the years,
> whereby devs will take user needs seriously and go to extra-ordinary
> lengths to support everything under the sun.
>
> That's what Gentoo does.

No, it doesn't.  The devs made up their minds.  There is absolutely 
nothing we can do.  Other than doing the devrel thing, which I'm sure 
won't work anyway, given the userrel response.

Users are worth crap to Gentoo devs.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Stroller]

On 6 July 2011, at 17:35, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:

> Is there a secret plan in place to keep users from being able to use Gtk 2 in packages that support both Gtk 2 and 3?  And if yes, why?  Is the user considered too stupid to grasp the awesomeness of Gtk 3 so that the devs have to force the choice upon them?
> 
> I'm talking about this:
> 
>  http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=374057
> 
> So why should users not be able to choose Gtk 2 with a USE flag?  What is the reason people use Gentoo?  Isn't one of them the ability of being able to rebuild packages with different USE flags?

Taking a look at this bug today, is there any reason why the ebuild shouldn't simply RDEPEND="x11-libs/gtk+" (i.e. remove the explicit dep on gtk3), detect what version you have installed on your system and then either run --enable-gtk3 or --enable-gtk2 during src_configure(), depending upon which you're using?

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Albert Hopkins]

On Friday, July 8 at 13:11 (+0100), Stroller said:

> Taking a look at this bug today, is there any reason why the ebuild
> shouldn't simply RDEPEND="x11-libs/gtk+" (i.e. remove the explicit dep
> on gtk3), detect what version you have installed on your system and
> then either run --enable-gtk3 or --enable-gtk2 during src_configure(),
> depending upon which you're using?
> 
ebuilds generally don't do this, because it is bad.  What you have and
what you want aren't necessarily the same thing.  Consider:

      * You don't yet have any gtk installed
      * You have gtk2 but actually *want* the gtk3 version, so you want
        the ebuild to pull in gtk3 (or vice versa)
      * You have both gtk2 and gtk3 installed.
      * You have gtk installed, but don't want gtk support for a
        particular package (if gtk support is optional for that
        package).

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Friday 08 July 2011 09:14:36 Albert Hopkins did opine thusly:
> On Friday, July 8 at 13:11 (+0100), Stroller said:
> > Taking a look at this bug today, is there any reason why the
> > ebuild shouldn't simply RDEPEND="x11-libs/gtk+" (i.e. remove
> > the explicit dep on gtk3), detect what version you have
> > installed on your system and then either run --enable-gtk3 or
> > --enable-gtk2 during src_configure(), depending upon which
> > you're using?
> 
> ebuilds generally don't do this, because it is bad.  What you have
> and what you want aren't necessarily the same thing.  Consider:
> 
>       * You don't yet have any gtk installed
>       * You have gtk2 but actually *want* the gtk3 version, so you
> want the ebuild to pull in gtk3 (or vice versa)
>       * You have both gtk2 and gtk3 installed.
>       * You have gtk installed, but don't want gtk support for a
>         particular package (if gtk support is optional for that
>         package).

easy.

Two USE flags: gtk2 and gtk3

in ebuild:

DEPEND="
    gtk2? (x11-libs/gtk+:2)
    gtk3? (x11-libs/gtk+:3)
"

in src-configure() write the code such that it establishes a 
precedence

If both flags are set, build against gtk+:3
If only one flag is set, build against that toolkit
If no flags are set, do something appropriate.

IIRC, it is frowned upon to have conditionals in DEPENDS based on USE 
flags so the above is best - take the small hit on disk space if both 
are set and gtk+:2 is used nowhere else (highly unlikely for quite a 
while still)

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Stroller]

On 8 July 2011, at 16:19, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> ...
> easy.
> 
> Two USE flags: gtk2 and gtk3
> 
> in ebuild:
> 
> DEPEND="
>    gtk2? (x11-libs/gtk+:2)
>    gtk3? (x11-libs/gtk+:3)
> "
> 
> in src-configure() write the code such that it establishes a 
> precedence
> 
> If both flags are set, build against gtk+:3
> If only one flag is set, build against that toolkit
> If no flags are set, do something appropriate.

This is the way it was done for gtk vs. gtk2, but the bug has been updated since I first read it (over 24 hours ago) and apparently the Gnome team don't want the two separate flags in the future.

I'm not really a gtk or Gnome (or X11) user, so I don't really know, but the two separate flags did strike me as a bit of an ugly / clumsy way of doing things.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Friday 08 July 2011 18:39:04 Stroller did opine thusly:
> On 8 July 2011, at 16:19, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > ...
> > easy.
> > 
> > Two USE flags: gtk2 and gtk3
> > 
> > in ebuild:
> > 
> > DEPEND="
> > 
> >    gtk2? (x11-libs/gtk+:2)
> >    gtk3? (x11-libs/gtk+:3)
> > 
> > "
> > 
> > in src-configure() write the code such that it establishes a
> > precedence
> > 
> > If both flags are set, build against gtk+:3
> > If only one flag is set, build against that toolkit
> > If no flags are set, do something appropriate.
> 
> This is the way it was done for gtk vs. gtk2, but the bug has been
> updated since I first read it (over 24 hours ago) and apparently
> the Gnome team don't want the two separate flags in the future.
> 
> I'm not really a gtk or Gnome (or X11) user, so I don't really know,
> but the two separate flags did strike me as a bit of an ugly /
> clumsy way of doing things.

It's also the only mechanism I know of to do it.

If the ebuild will support two toolkits and the choice of which to use 
is based solely on a user's preference, there is only one way to 
resolve that - a precedence list. There's no way around that.

Some global mechanism would be nice and could be useful in various 
cases:

gtk+-2 vs gtk+-3
openssl vs gnuts
mysql vs mariadb

Those are also virtuals.


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

[gentoo-user] Re: Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 07/09/2011 10:26 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Friday 08 July 2011 18:39:04 Stroller did opine thusly:
>> On 8 July 2011, at 16:19, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>> Two USE flags: gtk2 and gtk3
>>>
>>> DEPEND="
>>>     gtk2? (x11-libs/gtk+:2)
>>>     gtk3? (x11-libs/gtk+:3)
>>> "
>>>
>>> in src-configure() write the code such that it establishes a
>>> precedence
>>
>> This is the way it was done for gtk vs. gtk2, but the bug has been
>> updated since I first read it (over 24 hours ago) and apparently
>> the Gnome team don't want the two separate flags in the future.
>>
>> I'm not really a gtk or Gnome (or X11) user, so I don't really know,
>> but the two separate flags did strike me as a bit of an ugly /
>> clumsy way of doing things.
>
> It's also the only mechanism I know of to do it.
>
> If the ebuild will support two toolkits and the choice of which to use
> is based solely on a user's preference, there is only one way to
> resolve that - a precedence list. There's no way around that.

There's also mutually exclusive USE flags (there's an eclass for that), 
which is what the submitted patch did.

[gentoo-user] Re: Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 07/08/2011 06:19 PM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Friday 08 July 2011 09:14:36 Albert Hopkins did opine thusly:
>> On Friday, July 8 at 13:11 (+0100), Stroller said:
>>> Taking a look at this bug today, is there any reason why the
>>> ebuild shouldn't simply RDEPEND="x11-libs/gtk+" (i.e. remove
>>> the explicit dep on gtk3), detect what version you have
>>> installed on your system and then either run --enable-gtk3 or
>>> --enable-gtk2 during src_configure(), depending upon which
>>> you're using?
>>
>> ebuilds generally don't do this, because it is bad.  What you have
>> and what you want aren't necessarily the same thing.  Consider:
>>
>>        * You don't yet have any gtk installed
>>        * You have gtk2 but actually *want* the gtk3 version, so you
>> want the ebuild to pull in gtk3 (or vice versa)
>>        * You have both gtk2 and gtk3 installed.
>>        * You have gtk installed, but don't want gtk support for a
>>          particular package (if gtk support is optional for that
>>          package).
>
> easy.
>
> Two USE flags: gtk2 and gtk3
>
> in ebuild:
>
> DEPEND="
>      gtk2? (x11-libs/gtk+:2)
>      gtk3? (x11-libs/gtk+:3)
> "

Actually, it's better to have "gtk2" and "gtk".  *Not* "gtk3".  That 
would repeat the problems of the past (gtk1->gtk2.)

But the devs have gone into ego-mode by now, so there's no chance in 
hell they would accept help or suggestions about this.  It has reached 
the point where accepting a suggestion would mean "losing the argument" 
to them, so I doubt they'll do any of it as they don't want to "lose" to 
some n00b users.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Albert Hopkins]

On Friday, July 8 at 17:19 (+0200), Alan McKinnon said:

> On Friday 08 July 2011 09:14:36 Albert Hopkins did opine thusly:
> > On Friday, July 8 at 13:11 (+0100), Stroller said:
> > > Taking a look at this bug today, is there any reason why the
> > > ebuild shouldn't simply RDEPEND="x11-libs/gtk+" (i.e. remove
> > > the explicit dep on gtk3), detect what version you have
> > > installed on your system and then either run --enable-gtk3 or
> > > --enable-gtk2 during src_configure(), depending upon which
> > > you're using?
> > 
> > ebuilds generally don't do this, because it is bad.  What you have
> > and what you want aren't necessarily the same thing.  Consider:
> > 
> >       * You don't yet have any gtk installed
> >       * You have gtk2 but actually *want* the gtk3 version, so you
> > want the ebuild to pull in gtk3 (or vice versa)
> >       * You have both gtk2 and gtk3 installed.
> >       * You have gtk installed, but don't want gtk support for a
> >         particular package (if gtk support is optional for that
> >         package).
> 
> easy.
> 
> Two USE flags: gtk2 and gtk3
> 
> in ebuild:
> 
> DEPEND="
>     gtk2? (x11-libs/gtk+:2)
>     gtk3? (x11-libs/gtk+:3)
> "
> 
> in src-configure() write the code such that it establishes a 
> precedence
> 
> If both flags are set, build against gtk+:3
> If only one flag is set, build against that toolkit
> If no flags are set, do something appropriate.
> 

You mean like what they did with portage and python2/3?

Well, there was bugs in that (I reported 1 or 2 bugs myself).  It works
now (depending on your expectation of "works" but is very ugly.

> IIRC, it is frowned upon to have conditionals in DEPENDS based on USE 
> flags so the above is best - take the small hit on disk space if both 
> are set and gtk+:2 is used nowhere else (highly unlikely for quite a 
> while still)
> 
They could do that.. I don't see it happening though.

I didn't want to comment on this thread (having been on both sides of
the fence).  But I will say this.  The best thing about Gentoo is it's a
"meta-distribution".  It gives you more control and more ease to do
things "your" way.  I think people should learn to take more advantage
of the latter.  I do.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Stroller]

On 8 July 2011, at 20:06, Albert Hopkins wrote:
> ...
> I didn't want to comment on this thread (having been on both sides of
> the fence).  But I will say this.  The best thing about Gentoo is it's a
> "meta-distribution".  It gives you more control and more ease to do
> things "your" way.  I think people should learn to take more advantage
> of the latter.  I do.

Yeah, I hope I don't offend Nikos by saying this, but I think he's allowing himself (from his comments in the bug report) to get way too bent out of shape over this, considering he could stick a copy of the patched ebuild in his local overlay and just compile against that until gtk3 looks OK under KDE.

I have to do this fairly regularly, because all the packages that are important to me seem to be completely unimportant to anyone else, and my bugs languish in bugzilla for months at a time.

You have to pick your battles, and (whilst I'm not always able to follow this advice myself) it's not worth letting some asshole on the internet have a negative affect on you.

Nikos has now spent *way* more time arguing his case in the bug report than he would have done maintaining the ebuild himself.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[William Hubbs]

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Hi Alan and all,

On Fri, Jul 08, 2011 at 05:19:46PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> easy.
> 
> Two USE flags: gtk2 and gtk3
> 
> in ebuild:
> 
> DEPEND="
>     gtk2? (x11-libs/gtk+:2)
>     gtk3? (x11-libs/gtk+:3)
> "

This doesn't account for all possible use flag settings. If I had
neither flag set, neither version of gtk would be installed, or if I had
both set, both versions would be installed. You can't just choose a
default in src_configure; you have to worry about it in the dependencies
as well. If you don't, you can force installation of a package the user
doesn't need or not install something they  do need.

William


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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Saturday 09 July 2011 11:28:19 William Hubbs did opine thusly:
> Hi Alan and all,
> 
> On Fri, Jul 08, 2011 at 05:19:46PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > easy.
> > 
> > Two USE flags: gtk2 and gtk3
> > 
> > in ebuild:
> > 
> > DEPEND="
> > 
> >     gtk2? (x11-libs/gtk+:2)
> >     gtk3? (x11-libs/gtk+:3)
> > 
> > "
> 
> This doesn't account for all possible use flag settings. If I had
> neither flag set, neither version of gtk would be installed, or if I
> had both set, both versions would be installed. You can't just
> choose a default in src_configure; you have to worry about it in
> the dependencies as well. If you don't, you can force installation
> of a package the user doesn't need or not install something they 
> do need.

Of course my example wasn't complete and needs fleshing out.

It wasn't an ebuild-writing tutorial, it was an example of how easy it 
really is to continue supporting both toolkits in the ebuild.


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Stroller]

I'm not expert enough on this subject to be *advocating* this approach, but this is how I would have expected it to behave:

On 8 July 2011, at 14:14, Albert Hopkins wrote:
> 
> On Friday, July 8 at 13:11 (+0100), Stroller said:
> 
>> Taking a look at this bug today, is there any reason why the ebuild
>> shouldn't simply RDEPEND="x11-libs/gtk+" (i.e. remove the explicit dep
>> on gtk3), detect what version you have installed on your system and
>> then either run --enable-gtk3 or --enable-gtk2 during src_configure(),
>> depending upon which you're using?
> 
> ebuilds generally don't do this, because it is bad.  What you have and
> what you want aren't necessarily the same thing.  Consider:
> 
>      * You don't yet have any gtk installed

Highest version of gtk in tree is pulled in as a dep (subject to masking, ARCH, ~ARCH, &c)

>      * You have gtk2 but actually *want* the gtk3 version, so you want
>        the ebuild to pull in gtk3 (or vice versa)

emerge -u1 x11-libs/gtk+  (assuming gtk3 is now stable)
or
emerge -1 =x11-libs/gtk+-3.0.10

(but gtk3 will probably be pulled in by Gnome3 (??) automatically when the user upgrades to that)

>      * You have both gtk2 and gtk3 installed.

Compile against the higher one

>      * You have gtk installed, but don't want gtk support for a
>        particular package (if gtk support is optional for that
>        package).

This is when you should be using USE="-gtk", surely? Whether v2 &/or v3 of gtk is supported is irrelevant. 

Stroller.

[gentoo-user] Re: Is Gentoo wiping out Gtk 2 support from packages that support it?

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 07/08/2011 03:11 PM, Stroller wrote:
>
> On 6 July 2011, at 17:35, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>
>> Is there a secret plan in place to keep users from being able to use Gtk 2 in packages that support both Gtk 2 and 3?  And if yes, why?  Is the user considered too stupid to grasp the awesomeness of Gtk 3 so that the devs have to force the choice upon them?
>>
>> I'm talking about this:
>>
>>   http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=374057
>>
>> So why should users not be able to choose Gtk 2 with a USE flag?  What is the reason people use Gentoo?  Isn't one of them the ability of being able to rebuild packages with different USE flags?
>
> Taking a look at this bug today, is there any reason why the ebuild shouldn't simply RDEPEND="x11-libs/gtk+" (i.e. remove the explicit dep on gtk3), detect what version you have installed on your system and then either run --enable-gtk3 or --enable-gtk2 during src_configure(), depending upon which you're using?

Other than the dev believing that Gentoo is there to satisfy only his 
own needs and that portage is his own customized personal overlay?  No, 
I don't think so.