[gentoo-user] Legacy GRUB vs GRUB2

[gentoo-user] Legacy GRUB vs GRUB2

[Tanstaafl]

On 2010-06-18 12:17 PM, Bill Longman wrote:
> And finally, don't even mention how braindead the "new" improved
> grub is. I wonder how anyone can feel that having to write six
> paragraphs > in some one-off bash-like language, which needs to be
> debugged, is better than four lines in a config file.

This brings up a question I've been meaning to ask...

Since I have no desire to experience this new 'improved' GRUB, but don't
like LILO - how long will it be before I'll be forced to make a choice?
Meaning, how long will legacy GRUB still be supported?

Re: [gentoo-user] Legacy GRUB vs GRUB2

[Dale]

Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 2010-06-18 12:17 PM, Bill Longman wrote:
>    
>> And finally, don't even mention how braindead the "new" improved
>> grub is. I wonder how anyone can feel that having to write six
>> paragraphs>  in some one-off bash-like language, which needs to be
>> debugged, is better than four lines in a config file.
>>      
> This brings up a question I've been meaning to ask...
>
> Since I have no desire to experience this new 'improved' GRUB, but don't
> like LILO - how long will it be before I'll be forced to make a choice?
> Meaning, how long will legacy GRUB still be supported?
>
>    

If I read the home page correctly, they are not really doing much more 
than bug fixes on the old grub.  That was my reading at least.  I'm 
dreading that day too.  I sort of like my old grub.  I started on lilo 
and grub has seriously grown on me.  I'll switch to the new grub tho.  I 
have NO plans to go back to lilo.  None whatsoever ! !

Dale

:-)  :-)

[gentoo-user] Re: Legacy GRUB vs GRUB2

[walt]

On 06/22/2010 11:44 AM, Dale wrote:
> Tanstaafl wrote:
>> On 2010-06-18 12:17 PM, Bill Longman wrote:
>>> And finally, don't even mention how braindead the "new" improved
>>> grub is. I wonder how anyone can feel that having to write six
>>> paragraphs> in some one-off bash-like language, which needs to be
>>> debugged, is better than four lines in a config file.
>> This brings up a question I've been meaning to ask...
>>
>> Since I have no desire to experience this new 'improved' GRUB, but don't
>> like LILO - how long will it be before I'll be forced to make a choice?
>> Meaning, how long will legacy GRUB still be supported?
>>
>
> If I read the home page correctly, they are not really doing much more than bug fixes on the old grub. That was my reading at least. I'm dreading that day too. I sort of like my old grub. I started on lilo and grub has seriously grown on me. I'll switch
> to the new grub tho. I have NO plans to go back to lilo. None whatsoever ! !

IIUC the change will be forced by mobo manufacturers when they adopt the
newer partition tables and boot/BIOS methods .  They have catchy acronyms
that I can't remember, naturally, but we've all seen them discussed in this
group from time to time.  Don't buy new mobos and you can stick to old grub.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Legacy GRUB vs GRUB2

[Per-Erik Westerberg]

tis 2010-06-22 klockan 12:15 -0700 skrev walt:
> On 06/22/2010 11:44 AM, Dale wrote:
> > Tanstaafl wrote:
> >> On 2010-06-18 12:17 PM, Bill Longman wrote:
> >>> And finally, don't even mention how braindead the "new" improved
> >>> grub is. I wonder how anyone can feel that having to write six
> >>> paragraphs> in some one-off bash-like language, which needs to be
> >>> debugged, is better than four lines in a config file.
> >> This brings up a question I've been meaning to ask...
> >>
> >> Since I have no desire to experience this new 'improved' GRUB, but don't
> >> like LILO - how long will it be before I'll be forced to make a choice?
> >> Meaning, how long will legacy GRUB still be supported?
> >>
> >
> > If I read the home page correctly, they are not really doing much more than bug fixes on the old grub. That was my reading at least. I'm dreading that day too. I sort of like my old grub. I started on lilo and grub has seriously grown on me. I'll switch
> > to the new grub tho. I have NO plans to go back to lilo. None whatsoever ! !
> 
> IIUC the change will be forced by mobo manufacturers when they adopt the
> newer partition tables and boot/BIOS methods .  They have catchy acronyms
> that I can't remember, naturally, but we've all seen them discussed in this
> group from time to time.  Don't buy new mobos and you can stick to old grub.
> 
> 

Is there a GRUB to GRUB2 migration guide somewhere in the Gentoo
Documentation?

  BR / P-E

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Legacy GRUB vs GRUB2

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Dienstag 22 Juni 2010, walt wrote:
> On 06/22/2010 11:44 AM, Dale wrote:
> > Tanstaafl wrote:
> >> On 2010-06-18 12:17 PM, Bill Longman wrote:
> >>> And finally, don't even mention how braindead the "new" improved
> >>> grub is. I wonder how anyone can feel that having to write six
> >>> paragraphs> in some one-off bash-like language, which needs to be
> >>> debugged, is better than four lines in a config file.
> >> 
> >> This brings up a question I've been meaning to ask...
> >> 
> >> Since I have no desire to experience this new 'improved' GRUB, but don't
> >> like LILO - how long will it be before I'll be forced to make a choice?
> >> Meaning, how long will legacy GRUB still be supported?
> > 
> > If I read the home page correctly, they are not really doing much more
> > than bug fixes on the old grub. That was my reading at least. I'm
> > dreading that day too. I sort of like my old grub. I started on lilo and
> > grub has seriously grown on me. I'll switch to the new grub tho. I have
> > NO plans to go back to lilo. None whatsoever ! !
> 
> IIUC the change will be forced by mobo manufacturers when they adopt the
> newer partition tables and boot/BIOS methods .  They have catchy acronyms
> that I can't remember, naturally, but we've all seen them discussed in this
> group from time to time.  Don't buy new mobos and you can stick to old
> grub.

mobos? why should mobos have any influence?

And what have mobos to do with the fact that whenever GNU lay their dirty 
hands on a project they will no rest until they turned something decent and 
usefull into an overly complex, drowned in obscure options and hard to 
configure mess?

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Legacy GRUB vs GRUB2

[Ivan S. Freitas]

Anyone tried gujin http://gujin.sourceforge.net/ ? I think it may
become an alernative to grub2, but I never found anyone who have used
it.


-- 
==============================================
Ivan Sichmann Freitas
Engenharia de Computação 2009
UNICAMP
http://identi.ca/ivansichmann
Grupo Pró Software Livre UNICAMP - GPSL
==============================================

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Legacy GRUB vs GRUB2

[Bill Longman]

On 06/22/2010 12:29 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Dienstag 22 Juni 2010, walt wrote:
>> On 06/22/2010 11:44 AM, Dale wrote:
>>> Tanstaafl wrote:
>>>> On 2010-06-18 12:17 PM, Bill Longman wrote:
>>>>> And finally, don't even mention how braindead the "new" improved
>>>>> grub is. I wonder how anyone can feel that having to write six
>>>>> paragraphs> in some one-off bash-like language, which needs to be
>>>>> debugged, is better than four lines in a config file.
>>>>
>>>> This brings up a question I've been meaning to ask...
>>>>
>>>> Since I have no desire to experience this new 'improved' GRUB, but don't
>>>> like LILO - how long will it be before I'll be forced to make a choice?
>>>> Meaning, how long will legacy GRUB still be supported?
>>>
>>> If I read the home page correctly, they are not really doing much more
>>> than bug fixes on the old grub. That was my reading at least. I'm
>>> dreading that day too. I sort of like my old grub. I started on lilo and
>>> grub has seriously grown on me. I'll switch to the new grub tho. I have
>>> NO plans to go back to lilo. None whatsoever ! !
>>
>> IIUC the change will be forced by mobo manufacturers when they adopt the
>> newer partition tables and boot/BIOS methods .  They have catchy acronyms
>> that I can't remember, naturally, but we've all seen them discussed in this
>> group from time to time.  Don't buy new mobos and you can stick to old
>> grub.
> 
> mobos? why should mobos have any influence?
> 
> And what have mobos to do with the fact that whenever GNU lay their dirty 
> hands on a project they will no rest until they turned something decent and 
> usefull into an overly complex, drowned in obscure options and hard to 
> configure mess?

Because of EFI firmware, that's why mobos would effect it. Like the Sun
Openboot PROM docs say somewhere: "BIOS? We don't need no stinkin'
BIOS". Same with the lame x86 status quo. At least nowadays we could
have two different versions of it on board and it's not a hardware chip
anymore, but, compared to most other intelligent platforms, PC BIOS is
pretty braindead.

Volker, I feel your pain every time I have to use two "--" instead of
one "-" on my flags. Does -help take one or two? (I'm sure I can easily
start a raging, apocalyptic forest fire by mentioning "man" and "info"
in the same sentence :-)

[gentoo-user] Re: Legacy GRUB vs GRUB2

[walt]

On 06/22/2010 12:29 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> And what have mobos to do with the fact that whenever GNU lay their dirty
> hands on a project they will not rest until they turned something decent and
> useful into an overly complex, drowned in obscure options and hard to
> configure mess?

I can't possibly argue with you because I agree with you. Like Bill just said:
I feel your pain -- every time I run into a problem with autotools -- or even
when I read a HOWTO about using autotools.

Just a day or two ago I compiled a package (naturally I can't remember which
package) that specifically required a build framework *other than* autotools.

I got up out of my chair and shouted "YES!" (I was alone and I couldn't share
my joy with anyone, so thanks for giving me this opportunity :)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Legacy GRUB vs GRUB2

[kashani]

On 6/22/2010 1:46 PM, Bill Longman wrote:
>
> Because of EFI firmware, that's why mobos would effect it. Like the Sun
> Openboot PROM docs say somewhere: "BIOS? We don't need no stinkin'
> BIOS". Same with the lame x86 status quo. At least nowadays we could
> have two different versions of it on board and it's not a hardware chip
> anymore, but, compared to most other intelligent platforms, PC BIOS is
> pretty braindead.
>

	For the record only Sun servers have ever made me utter, "Let me get 
this straight. I have to update the firware on the POWER SUPPLY too?!?" 
E6500s circa '99.

kashani

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Legacy GRUB vs GRUB2

[Maximilian Bräutigam]

Am 22.06.2010 21:22, schrieb Per-Erik Westerberg:
> tis 2010-06-22 klockan 12:15 -0700 skrev walt:
>> On 06/22/2010 11:44 AM, Dale wrote:
>>> Tanstaafl wrote:
>>>> On 2010-06-18 12:17 PM, Bill Longman wrote:
>>>>> And finally, don't even mention how braindead the "new" improved
>>>>> grub is. I wonder how anyone can feel that having to write six
>>>>> paragraphs> in some one-off bash-like language, which needs to be
>>>>> debugged, is better than four lines in a config file.
>>>> This brings up a question I've been meaning to ask...
>>>>
>>>> Since I have no desire to experience this new 'improved' GRUB, but don't
>>>> like LILO - how long will it be before I'll be forced to make a choice?
>>>> Meaning, how long will legacy GRUB still be supported?
>>>>
>>>
>>> If I read the home page correctly, they are not really doing much more than bug fixes on the old grub. That was my reading at least. I'm dreading that day too. I sort of like my old grub. I started on lilo and grub has seriously grown on me. I'll switch
>>> to the new grub tho. I have NO plans to go back to lilo. None whatsoever ! !
>>
>> IIUC the change will be forced by mobo manufacturers when they adopt the
>> newer partition tables and boot/BIOS methods .  They have catchy acronyms
>> that I can't remember, naturally, but we've all seen them discussed in this
>> group from time to time.  Don't buy new mobos and you can stick to old grub.
>>
>>
> 
> Is there a GRUB to GRUB2 migration guide somewhere in the Gentoo
> Documentation?
> 
>   BR / P-E

I did it 2 weeks ago with lil help of:

http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Grub2

And I didn't use the multislot, that was unnecessary, since os-prober is
working perfectly.

Kind regards,
der Max
-- 
Maximilian Bräutigam
max-braeu@gmx.de
GPG key-id F9E42811

http://www.jcf.uni-jena.de

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Legacy GRUB vs GRUB2

[Rod]

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On 23/06/2010 3:43 PM, Maximilian Bräutigam wrote:
>
>> Is there a GRUB to GRUB2 migration guide somewhere in the Gentoo
>> Documentation?
>>
>>    BR / P-E
>>      
> I did it 2 weeks ago with lil help of:
>
> http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Grub2
>
> And I didn't use the multislot, that was unnecessary, since os-prober is
> working perfectly.
>
> Kind regards,
> der Max
>    

     Hi, would you like to check your GNU GRUB 2 external link at the 
end, I just clicked it and got a


  404 - Page Not Found

The page you were looking for could not be found on the GNU web server.
http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/grub-2.en.html


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Legacy GRUB vs GRUB2

[Stroller]

On 23 Jun 2010, at 07:00, Rod wrote:
> On 23/06/2010 3:43 PM, Maximilian Bräutigam wrote:
>>
>>> Is there a GRUB to GRUB2 migration guide somewhere in the Gentoo
>>> Documentation?
>>>
>>>   BR / P-E
>>>
>> I did it 2 weeks ago with lil help of:
>>
>> http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Grub2
>>
>> And I didn't use the multislot, that was unnecessary, since os- 
>> prober is
>> working perfectly.
>
>     Hi, would you like to check your GNU GRUB 2 external link at the  
> end, I just clicked it and got a
> 404 - Page Not Found
> The page you were looking for could not be found on the GNU web  
> server.
> http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/grub-2.en.html
>

So fix it. It's a wiki. It depends on community members to make  
corrections and improvements.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Legacy GRUB vs GRUB2

[Stroller]

On 18 Jun 2010, at 17:17, Bill Longman wrote:
> ...
> And finally, don't even mention how braindead the "new" improved grub
> is. I wonder how anyone can feel that having to write six paragraphs  
> in
> some one-off bash-like language, which needs to be debugged, is better
> than four lines in a config file.


Can someone possibly explain exactly what's wrong with GRUB2?

I've just taken a look at the wiki guide link posted by Max Bräutigam,  
and it all looks exactly the same as current GRUB and no more  
complicated, apart from optional sections to change the resolution and  
font at the top of the config file.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Legacy GRUB vs GRUB2

[Maximilian Bräutigam]

Am 23.06.2010 08:00, schrieb Rod:
> On 23/06/2010 3:43 PM, Maximilian Bräutigam wrote:
>>
>>> Is there a GRUB to GRUB2 migration guide somewhere in the Gentoo
>>> Documentation?
>>>
>>>   BR / P-E
>>>     
>> I did it 2 weeks ago with lil help of:
>>
>> http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Grub2
>>
>> And I didn't use the multislot, that was unnecessary, since os-prober is
>> working perfectly.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> der Max
>>   
> 
>     Hi, would you like to check your GNU GRUB 2 external link at the
> end, I just clicked it and got a
> 
> 
>   404 - Page Not Found
> 
> The page you were looking for could not be found on the GNU web server.
> http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/grub-2.en.html
> 


Hi Rod,

works w/o problems in my case, but you could also visit gentoo-wiki.com
and navigate yourself to the Grub2 entry.

By the way, I read that Grub2 has been completely rewritten, so it's not
just bug fixing.
Here the links, language de:

http://www.linux-magazin.de/NEWS/Ubuntu-waehlt-Grub-2.0?category=0
http://www.linux-magazin.de/Online-Artikel/Schoener-Booten?category=0

Kind regards,
der Max

Re: [gentoo-user] Legacy GRUB vs GRUB2

[Maximilian Bräutigam]

Am 23.06.2010 08:53, schrieb Stroller:
> 
> On 18 Jun 2010, at 17:17, Bill Longman wrote:
>> ...
>> And finally, don't even mention how braindead the "new" improved grub
>> is. I wonder how anyone can feel that having to write six paragraphs in
>> some one-off bash-like language, which needs to be debugged, is better
>> than four lines in a config file.
> 
> 
> Can someone possibly explain exactly what's wrong with GRUB2?
> 
> I've just taken a look at the wiki guide link posted by Max Bräutigam,
> and it all looks exactly the same as current GRUB and no more
> complicated, apart from optional sections to change the resolution and
> font at the top of the config file.
> 
> Stroller.
> 

Hi Stroller,

there is nothing complicated, the only thing you should take care of is,
that you run grub-mkconfig to get an initial grub.cfg and grub-install
and you should in case of system failure know, how to boot with a
livecd, chroot your environment and switch back to your old grub/config.
Help with chroot you'll find here:

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1#book_part1_chap6

So, be brave!
der Max

Re: [gentoo-user] Legacy GRUB vs GRUB2

[etienne.lorrain]

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> Can someone possibly explain exactly what's wrong with GRUB2?

The main problem of GRUB2/GRUB4DOS is that it is entering the Linux
kernel by the partially documented 32 bits entry point:
http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/alpha.gnu.org/gnu/grub/grub-1.98.tar.gz/grub-
1.98/loader/i386/linux.c?extract=true

That means you are no more executing the real mode part of the linux
kernel, you are using some real mode memory structures set-up by GRUB2.
Those structures have been more or less identical to those of Linux at
some point in the past.

That means that some kernel options which were working with GRUB1 (like
EDID and EBIOS disk identifications) are no more working, and no more
evolutions can be done in the real mode part of the Linux kernel (like
increasing some structures, moving their base address...).
Those evolutions would only be working with kernel booted with GRUB1,
LILO or Gujin, but not with GRUB2.
Disclaimer: I am not unrelated with the GPL bootloader Gujin at sourceforge.

When entering the Linux kernel by the 32 bits entry point on ia32/amd64
has been discussed on lkml, it was seriously criticised.

For instance, because the boot disk can no more be determined safely
(the BIOS on most machine can tell the PCI address of a drive, but
it is unsafe to call the BIOS after so many modifications in protected
mode done by GRUB2), you get distributions switching to all UUID mode 
- which is a major pain when one of your hard disk fails and you copy
it byte per byte onto a spare disk, leading to UUID conflicts.

Also, some amd64 PC seems to want a BIOS call when they will run a
64 bits kernel (linux kernel real-mode code), I am not sure that one
is done by GRUB2.

And a third problem is that you need the 32 bits libraries to compile
GRUB2, even on a clean 64 bits machine.

Just my $0.02,
Etienne.




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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Legacy GRUB vs GRUB2

[Bill Longman]

On 06/22/2010 09:37 PM, kashani wrote:
>     For the record only Sun servers have ever made me utter, "Let me get
> this straight. I have to update the firware on the POWER SUPPLY too?!?"
> E6500s circa '99.

:-)

And the "hotswap" E250 power supply. You know, the one that you have to
tell the kernel that the new power supply is ready. More like "warmswap".

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Legacy GRUB vs GRUB2

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Dienstag 22 Juni 2010, Bill Longman wrote:
>I'm sure I can easily start a raging, apocalyptic forest fire by mentioning 
"man" and "info"
> in the same sentence

there is no way to reply to this without using lots of highly forbidden words. 
Also death threats.

So I will try to stay calm and drink some very cold water. And maybe punch a 
wall.