[gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Christian Apeltauer]

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Hello list,
 when I synced my portage tree today, I saw that kmail-4.4.0 needs 
kdelibs compiled with USE="semantic-desktop" and cannot be told to not 
use it. But I do not like the idea of semantic desktop and I will not 
install it. But I really like kmail as my mail client, so I give it a 
last chance:
 Is it possible to compile kmail without support for semantic desktop 
(by writing my own ebuild) or will the code break without it?
 Thanks for your hints
	Christian

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Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Christian Apeltauer wrote:
> Hello list,
>  when I synced my portage tree today, I saw that kmail-4.4.0 needs
> kdelibs compiled with USE="semantic-desktop" and cannot be told to not
> use it. But I do not like the idea of semantic desktop and I will not
> install it. 

you don't even now what that is. Right?

You just don't use 'it' and you are fine. Btw, I am sure you already have it 
installed with soprano.

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Frank Steinmetzger]

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Am Mittwoch, 10. Februar 2010 schrieb Christian Apeltauer:
> Hello list,
>  when I synced my portage tree today, I saw that kmail-4.4.0 needs
> kdelibs compiled with USE="semantic-desktop" and cannot be told to not
> use it. But I do not like the idea of semantic desktop and I will not
> install it.

I've had the same issue yesterday, but for another reason. I didn't want to 
install yet another server backend, whose package is 70MB in size. I've 
tried, but in the end, something needed semantic-desktop to be compulsory. So 
I gave up and waited the half hour to download that bloody virtuoso. :-/
-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla'
Why did the tachyon cross the road?
Because it was on the other side.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Roy Wright]

On Feb 10, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Christian Apeltauer wrote:
>> Hello list,
>> when I synced my portage tree today, I saw that kmail-4.4.0 needs
>> kdelibs compiled with USE="semantic-desktop" and cannot be told to not
>> use it. But I do not like the idea of semantic desktop and I will not
>> install it. 
> 
> you don't even now what that is. Right?
> 
> You just don't use 'it' and you are fine. Btw, I am sure you already have it 
> installed with soprano.
> 


My understanding is the semantic-desktop is just the latest incarnation of kde's clone of google desktop search which just wastes CPU, memory, and disk space.  Personally I don't see the need for this technology as I'm perfectly happy waiting a few seconds on "find" every few months.

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
> On Feb 10, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Christian Apeltauer wrote:
> >> Hello list,
> >> when I synced my portage tree today, I saw that kmail-4.4.0 needs
> >> kdelibs compiled with USE="semantic-desktop" and cannot be told to not
> >> use it. But I do not like the idea of semantic desktop and I will not
> >> install it.
> > 
> > you don't even now what that is. Right?
> > 
> > You just don't use 'it' and you are fine. Btw, I am sure you already have
> > it installed with soprano.
> 
> My understanding is the semantic-desktop is just the latest incarnation of
> kde's clone of google desktop search which just wastes CPU, memory, and
> disk space.  Personally I don't see the need for this technology as I'm
> perfectly happy waiting a few seconds on "find" every few months.

your understanding is wrong. Completely wrong. Seriously it hurts.

start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEPOMUK_(framework)

and then proceed with the links.

google-desktop is something completley different (and something that can be 
replaced with find, locate and grep). 

[gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Jörg Schaible]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
>> On Feb 10, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>> > On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Christian Apeltauer wrote:
>> >> Hello list,
>> >> when I synced my portage tree today, I saw that kmail-4.4.0 needs
>> >> kdelibs compiled with USE="semantic-desktop" and cannot be told to not
>> >> use it. But I do not like the idea of semantic desktop and I will not
>> >> install it.
>> > 
>> > you don't even now what that is. Right?
>> > 
>> > You just don't use 'it' and you are fine. Btw, I am sure you already
>> > have it installed with soprano.
>> 
>> My understanding is the semantic-desktop is just the latest incarnation
>> of kde's clone of google desktop search which just wastes CPU, memory,
>> and
>> disk space.  Personally I don't see the need for this technology as I'm
>> perfectly happy waiting a few seconds on "find" every few months.
> 
> your understanding is wrong. Completely wrong. Seriously it hurts.
> 
> start here:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEPOMUK_(framework)
> 
> and then proceed with the links.
> 
> google-desktop is something completley different (and something that can
> be replaced with find, locate and grep).

Well, in 4.3.x I eliminated it after the first try, because it took so many 
resources of my machine, that I could not use it for something else. So, you 
mean, in 4.4.x it takes only a 10% of the resources it took with 4.3.x? LOL, 
although I really like the idea of the semantic desktop, I rather have a 
usable machine ...

- Jörg

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Roy Wright]

On Feb 10, 2010, at 5:04 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
>> On Feb 10, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>> On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Christian Apeltauer wrote:
>>>> Hello list,
>>>> when I synced my portage tree today, I saw that kmail-4.4.0 needs
>>>> kdelibs compiled with USE="semantic-desktop" and cannot be told to not
>>>> use it. But I do not like the idea of semantic desktop and I will not
>>>> install it.
>>> 
>>> you don't even now what that is. Right?
>>> 
>>> You just don't use 'it' and you are fine. Btw, I am sure you already have
>>> it installed with soprano.
>> 
>> My understanding is the semantic-desktop is just the latest incarnation of
>> kde's clone of google desktop search which just wastes CPU, memory, and
>> disk space.  Personally I don't see the need for this technology as I'm
>> perfectly happy waiting a few seconds on "find" every few months.
> 
> your understanding is wrong. Completely wrong. Seriously it hurts.
> 
> start here:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEPOMUK_(framework)
> 
> and then proceed with the links.
> 
> google-desktop is something completley different (and something that can be 
> replaced with find, locate and grep). 
> 

OK, after reading several articles from the given starting point, I now understand why semantic-desktop wastes so much cpu, memory, and storage (really, if you organize your data properly who cares about a file's relationship to an email?).  Also didn't read anything even hinting at security awareness of the technology which is really scary (imagine an attack that get's access to the RDFs, it'd tell the attacker exactly which additional files to target).  And since I don't use/like dolphin, I'll stick with my original opinion that the semantic-desktop should be totally disabled/uninstalled.

IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find another desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7 years).

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Jörg Schaible wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
> >> On Feb 10, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> >> > On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Christian Apeltauer wrote:
> >> >> Hello list,
> >> >> when I synced my portage tree today, I saw that kmail-4.4.0 needs
> >> >> kdelibs compiled with USE="semantic-desktop" and cannot be told to
> >> >> not use it. But I do not like the idea of semantic desktop and I
> >> >> will not install it.
> >> > 
> >> > you don't even now what that is. Right?
> >> > 
> >> > You just don't use 'it' and you are fine. Btw, I am sure you already
> >> > have it installed with soprano.
> >> 
> >> My understanding is the semantic-desktop is just the latest incarnation
> >> of kde's clone of google desktop search which just wastes CPU, memory,
> >> and
> >> disk space.  Personally I don't see the need for this technology as I'm
> >> perfectly happy waiting a few seconds on "find" every few months.
> > 
> > your understanding is wrong. Completely wrong. Seriously it hurts.
> > 
> > start here:
> > 
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEPOMUK_(framework)
> > 
> > and then proceed with the links.
> > 
> > google-desktop is something completley different (and something that can
> > be replaced with find, locate and grep).
> 
> Well, in 4.3.x I eliminated it after the first try, because it took so many
> resources of my machine, that I could not use it for something else. So,
> you mean, in 4.4.x it takes only a 10% of the resources it took with
> 4.3.x? LOL, although I really like the idea of the semantic desktop, I
> rather have a usable machine ...
> 
> - Jörg

I don't know what load it creates because I never even have any negative 
impact. Yes, there is some nepomuk stuff sleeping in the background and it has 
zero impact on my desktop behaviour.

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
> On Feb 10, 2010, at 5:04 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
> >> On Feb 10, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> >>> On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Christian Apeltauer wrote:
> >>>> Hello list,
> >>>> when I synced my portage tree today, I saw that kmail-4.4.0 needs
> >>>> kdelibs compiled with USE="semantic-desktop" and cannot be told to not
> >>>> use it. But I do not like the idea of semantic desktop and I will not
> >>>> install it.
> >>> 
> >>> you don't even now what that is. Right?
> >>> 
> >>> You just don't use 'it' and you are fine. Btw, I am sure you already
> >>> have it installed with soprano.
> >> 
> >> My understanding is the semantic-desktop is just the latest incarnation
> >> of kde's clone of google desktop search which just wastes CPU, memory,
> >> and disk space.  Personally I don't see the need for this technology as
> >> I'm perfectly happy waiting a few seconds on "find" every few months.
> > 
> > your understanding is wrong. Completely wrong. Seriously it hurts.
> > 
> > start here:
> > 
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEPOMUK_(framework)
> > 
> > and then proceed with the links.
> > 
> > google-desktop is something completley different (and something that can
> > be replaced with find, locate and grep).
> 
> OK, after reading several articles from the given starting point, I now
> understand why semantic-desktop wastes so much cpu, memory, and storage
> (really, if you organize your data properly who cares about a file's
> relationship to an email?).  

because to 'organize it properly' you would need a huge directory tree plus 
symlinks plus explaining notes to even simulate a small token of the stuff 
'semantic desktop' can do for you..

> Also didn't read anything even hinting at
> security awareness of the technology which is really scary (imagine an
> attack that get's access to the RDFs,

those RDFs are in your home directory. If someone can read your home you are 
screwed anyway. 

> it'd tell the attacker exactly which
> additional files to target). 

oh yes, reading stuff about emails tells him to read more emails. That is 
scary.

> And since I don't use/like dolphin, I'll
> stick with my original opinion that the semantic-desktop should be totally
> disabled/uninstalled.

and you can do that. Oh wow. That useflag only turns on soprano. Nothing else. 
Which means nothing. You are not forced to use that stuff.

> 
> IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find another
> desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7 years).

yeah good luck with that. Because gnome is moving in that direction too.

Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be bad.

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Roy Wright]

On Feb 10, 2010, at 6:31 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
>> 
>> OK, after reading several articles from the given starting point, I now
>> understand why semantic-desktop wastes so much cpu, memory, and storage
>> (really, if you organize your data properly who cares about a file's
>> relationship to an email?).  
> 
> because to 'organize it properly' you would need a huge directory tree plus 
> symlinks plus explaining notes to even simulate a small token of the stuff 
> 'semantic desktop' can do for you..

Haven't had a problem organizing my data in 25 years and currently run a 3 system cluster with ~8TB of data.  The only "benefit" that the semantic desktop seems to deliver is to waste resources.

> 
>> Also didn't read anything even hinting at
>> security awareness of the technology which is really scary (imagine an
>> attack that get's access to the RDFs,
> 
> those RDFs are in your home directory. If someone can read your home you are 
> screwed anyway. 
> 
>> it'd tell the attacker exactly which
>> additional files to target). 
> 
> oh yes, reading stuff about emails tells him to read more emails. That is 
> scary.

But tagging files (say stock spreedsheets, bank records, financial bookmarks, tax records) with tags (say 'bank, money, finance') all in one place would simplify a targeted attack.

> 
>> And since I don't use/like dolphin, I'll
>> stick with my original opinion that the semantic-desktop should be totally
>> disabled/uninstalled.
> 
> and you can do that. Oh wow. That useflag only turns on soprano. Nothing else. 
> Which means nothing. You are not forced to use that stuff.

So just another database server wasting resources.  Not too bad as long as nepomuk and strigi are disabled.  Now to find the network ports soprano uses to make sure they are blocked from leaving the machine...  Yes, I know, one of the really scary goals of the semantic-desktop is to share RDFs, definitely don't want that.

> 
>> 
>> IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find another
>> desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7 years).
> 
> yeah good luck with that. Because gnome is moving in that direction too.
> 
> Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be bad.
> 


This technology does not have a good track record (invasive cpu, memory, disk usage) for very dubious benefits.  I have not found any cost vs. benefits vs. risks articles.  Just a bunch of "we think this will be great if you just use it" type articles that can't even explain how it would be great.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 01:25:31 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> I don't know what load it creates because I never even have any
> negative impact. Yes, there is some nepomuk stuff sleeping in the
> background and it has zero impact on my desktop behaviour.

It's the Strigi indexer that can affect performance. I only notice it on
my desktop because of the increased drive noise. It's a three year old
dual core box, but there's no real impact. On the other hand, it brings
my Eee PC 1005 to its knees, which is why it's turned off on that.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

<Linuxgeek> How do i find the model of my card?
<Serena[T]> your nick is misleading, seriously

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Stroller]

On 11 Feb 2010, at 00:01, Jörg Schaible wrote:
>> ...
>> your understanding is wrong. Completely wrong. Seriously it hurts.
>>
>> start here:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEPOMUK_(framework)
>>
>> and then proceed with the links.
>>
>> google-desktop is something completley different (and something  
>> that can
>> be replaced with find, locate and grep).
>
> Well, in 4.3.x I eliminated it after the first try, because it took  
> so many
> resources of my machine, that I could not use it for something else.  
> So, you
> mean, in 4.4.x it takes only a 10% of the resources it took with  
> 4.3.x? LOL,
> although I really like the idea of the semantic desktop, I rather  
> have a
> usable machine ...

I don't use KDE, but when I freshly install Mac OS (or migrate to a  
new hard-drive) the Spotlight indexing hammers the drive for several  
hours. It is not reasonable to compare performance during this initial  
indexing period.

There is no way the likes of `find`, `grep` and `locate` - useful as  
they are - can operate as efficiently as this kind of indexing (and  
Spotlight is pretty damn poor - your KDE implementation is surely  
loads better). I love `find`, `grep` and `locate` - they're fantastic,  
but my typical usage of them is to perform strict batch operations. If  
I just want to open a document then why would I wait for `find`,  
`grep` - or go hunting around manually in sub-directories of sub- 
directories - when I can just type a keyword into the search box and  
find it immediately?

I cannot for a moment believe that you (Roy) can organise your files  
so that you can find them easier than typing a search term & clicking  
on the correct result. You just don't want to try it because your  
current methods are "good enough" for you, but this isn't good grounds  
on which to complain about KDE moving on with their development of a  
state-of-the-art desktop which will actually make life easier for  
millions of other people (people who aren't afraid to try it).

After the initial index, data is only indexed when you save a file,  
using inotify [1], which is built into the kernel for maximum  
efficiency. (Please correct me if I'm wrong about KDE's  
implementation). So in actual real world usage, the result is that it  
takes a fraction of a second longer when you save an Open Office  
document. My 5 year old desktop can handle this overhead just fine. A  
£100 Core 2 Duo + motherboard combo would surely handle it MUCH  
better. I trust you can see why I'm dubious of claims of poor  
performance.

I don't wish to seem rude, being strident with my arguments here. This  
is just the way I see it.

Stroller.



[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inotify

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:03:15 -0600, Roy Wright wrote:

> IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find another
> desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7 years).

It's so mandatory it takes a whole mouse click to turn it off :(


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Old hitchhikers never die-they just throw in the towel.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Stroller]

On 11 Feb 2010, at 01:14, Roy Wright wrote:
>> ...
>> because to 'organize it properly' you would need a huge directory  
>> tree plus
>> symlinks plus explaining notes to even simulate a small token of  
>> the stuff
>> 'semantic desktop' can do for you..
>
> Haven't had a problem organizing my data in 25 years ...  The only  
> "benefit" that the semantic desktop seems to deliver is to waste  
> resources.

I resisted in my last email the temptation to mention that some of  
these complaints about semantic desktop sound like my father talking.  
But there you are ...

>>> Also didn't read anything even hinting at
>>> security awareness of the technology which is really scary  
>>> (imagine an
>>> attack that get's access to the RDFs,
>>
>> those RDFs are in your home directory. If someone can read your  
>> home you are
>> screwed anyway.
>>
>>> it'd tell the attacker exactly which
>>> additional files to target).
>>
>> oh yes, reading stuff about emails tells him to read more emails.  
>> That is
>> scary.
>
> But tagging files (say stock spreedsheets, bank records, financial  
> bookmarks, tax records) with tags (say 'bank, money, finance') all  
> in one place would simplify a targeted attack.

In the case of an attack ALL of your data will be stealthily copied so  
that the attacker will go over it later.

>> and you can do that. Oh wow. That useflag only turns on soprano.  
>> Nothing else.
>> Which means nothing. You are not forced to use that stuff.
>
> So just another database server wasting resources. ...

Do you also complain about the spellchecker wasting resources, as it  
parses the words you type?

In my father's day they were taught spelling rigidly at school like  
parrots, so they had no need for this new-fangled nonsense. In my  
father's day they never made spelling mistakes (yeah, right!).

> This technology does not have a good track record (invasive cpu,  
> memory, disk usage) for very dubious benefits.  I have not found any  
> cost vs. benefits vs. risks articles.  Just a bunch of "we think  
> this will be great if you just use it" type articles that can't even  
> explain how it would be great.

My father can find all his banking records for the last 25 years  
because he keeps them in a metal filing cabinet. He has to open the  
correct draw, find the right file, leaf slowly through his bank  
statements in order to find the right one. However well you claim to  
have your files organised, I'll bet you waste time opening the wrong  
drawer (clicking on the wrong folder) once in a while.

I, on the other hand, can find my statements by hitting ctrl-space,  
typing "amex" and selecting the folder which comes up in the search  
results. That folder is probably somewhere like /Documents/Personal/ 
Financial/Statements/Amex, but I don't need to know that (it could be  
in Documents/Bank/ or elsewhere) nor do I need to navigate through  
several folders looking for it. I just type what I'm looking for and  
it's there.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Stroller wrote:
> On 11 Feb 2010, at 00:01, Jörg Schaible wrote:
> >> ...
> >> your understanding is wrong. Completely wrong. Seriously it hurts.
> >> 
> >> start here:
> >> 
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEPOMUK_(framework)
> >> 
> >> and then proceed with the links.
> >> 
> >> google-desktop is something completley different (and something
> >> that can
> >> be replaced with find, locate and grep).
> > 
> > Well, in 4.3.x I eliminated it after the first try, because it took
> > so many
> > resources of my machine, that I could not use it for something else.
> > So, you
> > mean, in 4.4.x it takes only a 10% of the resources it took with
> > 4.3.x? LOL,
> > although I really like the idea of the semantic desktop, I rather
> > have a
> > usable machine ...
> 
> I don't use KDE, but when I freshly install Mac OS (or migrate to a
> new hard-drive) the Spotlight indexing hammers the drive for several
> hours. It is not reasonable to compare performance during this initial
> indexing period.
> 
> There is no way the likes of `find`, `grep` and `locate` - useful as
> they are - can operate as efficiently as this kind of indexing (and
> Spotlight is pretty damn poor - your KDE implementation is surely
> loads better). I love `find`, `grep` and `locate` - they're fantastic,
> but my typical usage of them is to perform strict batch operations. If
> I just want to open a document then why would I wait for `find`,
> `grep` - or go hunting around manually in sub-directories of sub-
> directories - when I can just type a keyword into the search box and
> find it immediately?
> 
don't forget that updatedb is hammering your harddisk regularly too - and it 
doesn't just index new files. Nope, it goes over the whole disk.

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
> On Feb 10, 2010, at 6:31 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
> >> OK, after reading several articles from the given starting point, I now
> >> understand why semantic-desktop wastes so much cpu, memory, and storage
> >> (really, if you organize your data properly who cares about a file's
> >> relationship to an email?).
> > 
> > because to 'organize it properly' you would need a huge directory tree
> > plus symlinks plus explaining notes to even simulate a small token of
> > the stuff 'semantic desktop' can do for you..
> 
> Haven't had a problem organizing my data in 25 years and currently run a 3
> system cluster with ~8TB of data.  The only "benefit" that the semantic
> desktop seems to deliver is to waste resources.
> 
> >> Also didn't read anything even hinting at
> >> security awareness of the technology which is really scary (imagine an
> >> attack that get's access to the RDFs,
> > 
> > those RDFs are in your home directory. If someone can read your home you
> > are screwed anyway.
> > 
> >> it'd tell the attacker exactly which
> >> additional files to target).
> > 
> > oh yes, reading stuff about emails tells him to read more emails. That is
> > scary.
> 
> But tagging files (say stock spreedsheets, bank records, financial
> bookmarks, tax records) with tags (say 'bank, money, finance') all in one
> place would simplify a targeted attack.

and the filenames and the places where you keep them won't tell him the same?
You just claimed you organize things just fine. When you organize things, it 
can be used against you.

> 
> >> And since I don't use/like dolphin, I'll
> >> stick with my original opinion that the semantic-desktop should be
> >> totally disabled/uninstalled.
> > 
> > and you can do that. Oh wow. That useflag only turns on soprano. Nothing
> > else. Which means nothing. You are not forced to use that stuff.
> 
> So just another database server wasting resources. 

if it is running. You are free to not start it at all.

> Not too bad as long as
> nepomuk and strigi are disabled.  Now to find the network ports soprano
> uses to make sure they are blocked from leaving the machine...  Yes, I
> know, one of the really scary goals of the semantic-desktop is to share
> RDFs, definitely don't want that.

good thing you have to enable that explicitly...

> 
> >> IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find another
> >> desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7 years).
> > 
> > yeah good luck with that. Because gnome is moving in that direction too.
> > 
> > Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be bad.
> 
> This technology does not have a good track record (invasive cpu, memory,
> disk usage) for very dubious benefits.  I have not found any cost vs.
> benefits vs. risks articles.  Just a bunch of "we think this will be great
> if you just use it" type articles that can't even explain how it would be
> great.

zero cpu, almost zero memory and mayby 0.1% harddisk. Yeah, that is scary.

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Walter Dnes]

On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 01:31:26AM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
> On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
> > IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find another
> > desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7 years).
> 
> yeah good luck with that. Because gnome is moving in that direction too.

  There are other desktops besides GNOME and KDE.  Actually I prefer the
ICEWM window manager.  I was running a 1999 Dell 450mhz PIII with 128
megs of *SYSTEM* ram until the summer of 2007.  Let's just say that
GNOME and KDE were out of the question for me.  On my current desktop,
ICEWM flies.  But I also have a netbook, and again GNOME and KDE are not
usable.

> Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be bad.

  Correction, is fat, bloated, and slow, must be bad.  I wonder if
Microsoft's anti-linux strategy is to have its agents infiltrate the
linux developer community, and turn linux into bloatware.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Walter Dnes]

On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 01:17:07AM +0000, Stroller wrote

> I cannot for a moment believe that you (Roy) can organise your files  
> so that you can find them easier than typing a search term & clicking  
> on the correct result. You just don't want to try it because your  
> current methods are "good enough" for you, but this isn't good grounds  
> on which to complain about KDE moving on with their development of a  
> state-of-the-art desktop which will actually make life easier for  
> millions of other people (people who aren't afraid to try it).

  Yes, I can organize my files to the point where I rarely ever use
find.  Just because you can't, is not a reason to slow down everybody
else's desktop.  And if I really wanted a glitzy, bloated,
slow-as-molasses, pointy-clicky-touchy-feely-oowee-GUI, I would've
stayed with Windows, thank you.  I started with Blckbox and am now on
ICEWM.

  I have to put up with Windows at work and one of the first things I do
with a new machine is to turn off indexing.  It noticeably, speeds up
the system.  I'll take the rare occasional long search versus continuous
disk-thrashing, thank you.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 01:17:07AM +0000, Stroller wrote
> 
> > I cannot for a moment believe that you (Roy) can organise your files
> > so that you can find them easier than typing a search term & clicking
> > on the correct result. You just don't want to try it because your
> > current methods are "good enough" for you, but this isn't good grounds
> > on which to complain about KDE moving on with their development of a
> > state-of-the-art desktop which will actually make life easier for
> > millions of other people (people who aren't afraid to try it).
> 
>   Yes, I can organize my files to the point where I rarely ever use
> find.  Just because you can't, is not a reason to slow down everybody
> else's desktop.  And if I really wanted a glitzy, bloated,
> slow-as-molasses, pointy-clicky-touchy-feely-oowee-GUI, I would've
> stayed with Windows, thank you.  I started with Blckbox and am now on
> ICEWM.
> 
>   I have to put up with Windows at work and one of the first things I do
> with a new machine is to turn off indexing.  It noticeably, speeds up
> the system.  I'll take the rare occasional long search versus continuous
> disk-thrashing, thank you.


again. You are talking about stuff you do know nothing about. Semantic desktop 
is not a MUST. You can turn it off.
Second, even if you use it the impact on performance is negligble. updatedb 
running over your harddisks does a lot more damage than nepomuk - with the 
additional bonus that nepomuk only indexes once.

But again, you can turn it off with a single mouse click. So what again ist 
your problem? Besides that it is new?

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Walter Dnes wrote:

> > Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be bad.
> 
>   Correction, is fat, bloated, and slow, must be bad.  I wonder if
> Microsoft's anti-linux strategy is to have its agents infiltrate the
> linux developer community, and turn linux into bloatware.

it is neither fat nor bloated nor slow. Have you really tried it? Waited until 
the first indexing run was complete? kppp needs more ram than nepomuk. ... and 
produces a higher load. 

'Bloatware' is all you have to say. Yeah. It makes life of people easier and 
uses negligble ressources on hardware that was produced in the last 4 years. 
It really must be bad.

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Thursday 11 February 2010 13:50:54 Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 01:31:26AM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
> 
> > On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
> > > IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find another
> > > desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7 years).
> > 
> > yeah good luck with that. Because gnome is moving in that direction too.
> 
>   There are other desktops besides GNOME and KDE.  Actually I prefer the
> ICEWM window manager.  I was running a 1999 Dell 450mhz PIII with 128
> megs of *SYSTEM* ram until the summer of 2007.  Let's just say that
> GNOME and KDE were out of the question for me.  On my current desktop,
> ICEWM flies.  But I also have a netbook, and again GNOME and KDE are not
> usable.
> 
> > Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be bad.
> 
>   Correction, is fat, bloated, and slow, must be bad.  I wonder if
> Microsoft's anti-linux strategy is to have its agents infiltrate the
> linux developer community, and turn linux into bloatware.

You have been corrected on this point so many times I now think you are just a 
stupid ass.

It is not slow. 

You are the only one saying that. People who do use Nepomuk say that it is not 
slow and does not hog resources (initial scan excepted). 

Are you seriously just shooting your mouth off about something you know didly-
squat about?



-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Thursday 11 February 2010 13:50:54 Walter Dnes wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 01:31:26AM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
> > 
> > > On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
> > > > IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find another
> > > > desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7 years).
> > > 
> > > yeah good luck with that. Because gnome is moving in that direction
> > > too.
> > > 
> >   There are other desktops besides GNOME and KDE.  Actually I prefer the
> > 
> > ICEWM window manager.  I was running a 1999 Dell 450mhz PIII with 128
> > megs of *SYSTEM* ram until the summer of 2007.  Let's just say that
> > GNOME and KDE were out of the question for me.  On my current desktop,
> > ICEWM flies.  But I also have a netbook, and again GNOME and KDE are not
> > usable.
> > 
> > > Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be bad.
> > > 
> >   Correction, is fat, bloated, and slow, must be bad.  I wonder if
> > 
> > Microsoft's anti-linux strategy is to have its agents infiltrate the
> > linux developer community, and turn linux into bloatware.
> 
> You have been corrected on this point so many times I now think you are
> just a stupid ass.
> 
> It is not slow.
> 
> You are the only one saying that. People who do use Nepomuk say that it is
> not slow and does not hog resources (initial scan excepted).

you can even tell nepomuk how much memory it is allowed to use ... 

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>    
>> On Thursday 11 February 2010 13:50:54 Walter Dnes wrote:
>>      
>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 01:31:26AM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
>>>
>>>        
>>>> On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
>>>>          
>>>>> IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find another
>>>>> desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7 years).
>>>>>            
>>>> yeah good luck with that. Because gnome is moving in that direction
>>>> too.
>>>>
>>>>          
>>>    There are other desktops besides GNOME and KDE.  Actually I prefer the
>>>
>>> ICEWM window manager.  I was running a 1999 Dell 450mhz PIII with 128
>>> megs of *SYSTEM* ram until the summer of 2007.  Let's just say that
>>> GNOME and KDE were out of the question for me.  On my current desktop,
>>> ICEWM flies.  But I also have a netbook, and again GNOME and KDE are not
>>> usable.
>>>
>>>        
>>>> Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be bad.
>>>>
>>>>          
>>>    Correction, is fat, bloated, and slow, must be bad.  I wonder if
>>>
>>> Microsoft's anti-linux strategy is to have its agents infiltrate the
>>> linux developer community, and turn linux into bloatware.
>>>        
>> You have been corrected on this point so many times I now think you are
>> just a stupid ass.
>>
>> It is not slow.
>>
>> You are the only one saying that. People who do use Nepomuk say that it is
>> not slow and does not hog resources (initial scan excepted).
>>      
> you can even tell nepomuk how much memory it is allowed to use ...
>
>    

Can you nice the thing too?  That would work.  I set emerge to 5 and I 
can't even tell that emerge is running most of the time.  There may be 
times when I can but it is rare.

I just don't get this thing that indexing is a resource hog.  I notice 
updatedb running at night.  I have 329Gbs of "data" and updatedb only 
takes a few minutes.  How is that a resource "hog"?  My machine is not 
as old as some but it is slow going by the new machines that are out 
now.  It's a AMD 2500+ with 2Gbs of ram.  I have had Linux on machines 
as slow as 133MHz but never felt the need to disable indexing.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Thursday 11 February 2010 16:32:02 Dale wrote:

> Can you nice the thing too?  That would work.  I set emerge to 5 and I
> can't even tell that emerge is running most of the time.  There may be
> times when I can but it is rare.
> 
> I just don't get this thing that indexing is a resource hog.  I notice
> updatedb running at night.  I have 329Gbs of "data" and updatedb only
> takes a few minutes.  How is that a resource "hog"?  My machine is not
> as old as some but it is slow going by the new machines that are out
> now.  It's a AMD 2500+ with 2Gbs of ram.  I have had Linux on machines
> as slow as 133MHz but never felt the need to disable indexing.


No need for any of that.

Walter is just being a prick, talking out of a hole in his arse with the some 
total of "truth = 0"

Apologies for the French. I cannot resist. Dimwits annoy me greatly.


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Dale wrote:
> chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> > On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >> On Thursday 11 February 2010 13:50:54 Walter Dnes wrote:
> >>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 01:31:26AM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
> >>> 
> >>>> On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
> >>>>> IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find another
> >>>>> desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7 years).
> >>>> 
> >>>> yeah good luck with that. Because gnome is moving in that direction
> >>>> too.
> >>>> 
> >>>    There are other desktops besides GNOME and KDE.  Actually I prefer
> >>>    the
> >>> 
> >>> ICEWM window manager.  I was running a 1999 Dell 450mhz PIII with 128
> >>> megs of *SYSTEM* ram until the summer of 2007.  Let's just say that
> >>> GNOME and KDE were out of the question for me.  On my current desktop,
> >>> ICEWM flies.  But I also have a netbook, and again GNOME and KDE are
> >>> not usable.
> >>> 
> >>>> Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be bad.
> >>>> 
> >>>    Correction, is fat, bloated, and slow, must be bad.  I wonder if
> >>> 
> >>> Microsoft's anti-linux strategy is to have its agents infiltrate the
> >>> linux developer community, and turn linux into bloatware.
> >> 
> >> You have been corrected on this point so many times I now think you are
> >> just a stupid ass.
> >> 
> >> It is not slow.
> >> 
> >> You are the only one saying that. People who do use Nepomuk say that it
> >> is not slow and does not hog resources (initial scan excepted).
> > 
> > you can even tell nepomuk how much memory it is allowed to use ...
> 
> Can you nice the thing too?  That would work.  I set emerge to 5 and I
> can't even tell that emerge is running most of the time.  There may be
> times when I can but it is rare.
> 
> I just don't get this thing that indexing is a resource hog.  I notice
> updatedb running at night.  I have 329Gbs of "data" and updatedb only
> takes a few minutes.  How is that a resource "hog"?  My machine is not
> as old as some but it is slow going by the new machines that are out
> now.  It's a AMD 2500+ with 2Gbs of ram.  I have had Linux on machines
> as slow as 133MHz but never felt the need to disable indexing.
> 

when updatedb runs your cache is shot afterwards. That is a known problems.

Nepomuk is only noticable once: the first indexing run. After that it creates 
zero load.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Mike Edenfield]

On 2/11/2010 7:00 AM, Walter Dnes wrote:

> And if I really wanted a glitzy, bloated,
> slow-as-molasses, pointy-clicky-touchy-feely-oowee-GUI, I would've
> stayed with Windows, thank you.  I started with Blckbox and am now on
> ICEWM.

So, to summarize:

* You don't like modern desktop environment design philosophy
* You have no need for all of the convenience and productivity 
enhancements they provide
* You are perfectly happy to use your previous window manager
* Your previous window manager continues to work well for you and do 
everything you require from a window manager,

and,

* You just really like to complain about things.

--Mike

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> On Thursday 11 February 2010 16:32:02 Dale wrote:
>
>    
>> Can you nice the thing too?  That would work.  I set emerge to 5 and I
>> can't even tell that emerge is running most of the time.  There may be
>> times when I can but it is rare.
>>
>> I just don't get this thing that indexing is a resource hog.  I notice
>> updatedb running at night.  I have 329Gbs of "data" and updatedb only
>> takes a few minutes.  How is that a resource "hog"?  My machine is not
>> as old as some but it is slow going by the new machines that are out
>> now.  It's a AMD 2500+ with 2Gbs of ram.  I have had Linux on machines
>> as slow as 133MHz but never felt the need to disable indexing.
>>      
>
> No need for any of that.
>
> Walter is just being a prick, talking out of a hole in his arse with the some
> total of "truth = 0"
>
> Apologies for the French. I cannot resist. Dimwits annoy me greatly.
>
>    

Maybe he is trying to run Linux on a Vic-20?  I think it was a blazing 
4MHz or something like that.  Seriously tho, the slowest rig I had Linux 
on was 133MHz.  It had some really old slow drives in it, something like 
15MBs/sec, and I never saw the need to disable updatedb or other 
indexing software.  It just doesn't use that much.

Anything made in the last few years should be able to handle that with 
no problems.  Heck, my 6 year old rig does fine.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Paul Hartman]

On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Jörg Schaible <joerg.schaible@gmx.de> wrote:
> Well, in 4.3.x I eliminated it after the first try, because it took so many
> resources of my machine, that I could not use it for something else. So, you
> mean, in 4.4.x it takes only a 10% of the resources it took with 4.3.x? LOL,
> although I really like the idea of the semantic desktop, I rather have a
> usable machine ...

I tried it again in KDE 4.4, and other than virtuoso taking 100% with
a bug (I killed it and it behaved normally after that) I didn't
experience any extreme load even during the initial indexing. However,
I disabled it after a couple hours of indexing because it was already
using a few gigabytes of disk and I simply don't find it useful.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 468 bytes --]

On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 07:00:27 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:

>   Yes, I can organize my files to the point where I rarely ever use
> find.  Just because you can't, is not a reason to slow down everybody
> else's desktop. 

Is this ignorance or FUD?

It must be FUD because it has already been stated countless times in this
thread that this service can be switched off.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I typed Format SER: and accidentally killed a telephone operator!

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Roy Wright]

On Feb 11, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 07:00:27 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> 
>>  Yes, I can organize my files to the point where I rarely ever use
>> find.  Just because you can't, is not a reason to slow down everybody
>> else's desktop. 
> 
> Is this ignorance or FUD?
> 
> It must be FUD because it has already been stated countless times in this
> thread that this service can be switched off.

Just to come full circle, the thread started because the kmail is now requiring the semantic-desktop USE flag.  So the consensus seems to be that if you use kmail, then you have to compile the semantic desktop features, then go back and turn off using the semantic desktop.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Zeerak Waseem]

On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 21:55:23 +0100, Roy Wright <roy@wright.org> wrote:

>
> On Feb 11, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 07:00:27 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
>>
>>>  Yes, I can organize my files to the point where I rarely ever use
>>> find.  Just because you can't, is not a reason to slow down everybody
>>> else's desktop.
>>
>> Is this ignorance or FUD?
>>
>> It must be FUD because it has already been stated countless times in  
>> this
>> thread that this service can be switched off.
>
> Just to come full circle, the thread started because the kmail is now  
> requiring the semantic-desktop USE flag.  So the consensus seems to be  
> that if you use kmail, then you have to compile the semantic desktop  
> features, then go back and turn off using the semantic desktop.
>
>

Agreed, this thead seems to have been blown out of proportion really.
One thing is if you install a fullblown DE, then having semantic-desktop  
is fine, it's also fine that the DE forces you to build it, being that it  
can be turned off. However I think that random apps that are a part of the  
DE, but can be deselected, shouldn't have to force the users into building  
anything that the DE requires. It just seems silly that if you want to use  
the newest version of kate, kmail etc. that semantic-desktop is forced  
upon you, when you're not interested in having the entire DE.
That's just my take on it anyway.

-- 
Zeerak

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Christian Apeltauer]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1032 bytes --]

Am Thu, 11 Feb 2010 01:18:42 +0000
schrieb Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>:

> On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:03:15 -0600, Roy Wright wrote:
> 
> > IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find
> > another desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7
> > years).
> 
> It's so mandatory it takes a whole mouse click to turn it off :(
> 
> 

If you do not want a piece of software, why should you install it?
Installing and not using it instead of not installing it at all, is the
wrong way and (to my opinion) it is defintely not the Gentoo way.
 Well, I have drawn the conclusions and got rid of kmail and am on the
verge of migrating the whole desktop. I loved kde-3.5, I seriously
tried kde-4.*, but I could never befriend with it. And one point I
detaste is that "Social Semantic Desktop" thing (as Nepomuk is
characterized on its afore mentioned wikipedia page). For me it is just
another instance of what Kant called "selbstverschuldete
Unmündigkeit" (self-incurred immaturity).

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Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Christian Apeltauer wrote:
> Am Thu, 11 Feb 2010 01:18:42 +0000
> 
> schrieb Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>:
> > On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:03:15 -0600, Roy Wright wrote:
> > > IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find
> > > another desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7
> > > years).
> > 
> > It's so mandatory it takes a whole mouse click to turn it off :(
> 
> If you do not want a piece of software, why should you install it?
> Installing and not using it instead of not installing it at all, is the
> wrong way and (to my opinion) it is defintely not the Gentoo way.
>  Well, I have drawn the conclusions and got rid of kmail and am on the
> verge of migrating the whole desktop. I loved kde-3.5, I seriously
> tried kde-4.*, but I could never befriend with it. And one point I
> detaste is that "Social Semantic Desktop" thing (as Nepomuk is
> characterized on its afore mentioned wikipedia page). For me it is just
> another instance of what Kant called "selbstverschuldete
> Unmündigkeit" (self-incurred immaturity).

sure. Be able to tag and quickly find information is immature.

Question, when you have KDE installed and some app pulls in gconf or gvfs - do 
you throw the same temper tamtrum?

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Dale wrote:
>    
>> chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
>>      
>>> On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>>        
>>>> On Thursday 11 February 2010 13:50:54 Walter Dnes wrote:
>>>>          
>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 01:31:26AM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
>>>>>
>>>>>            
>>>>>> On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
>>>>>>              
>>>>>>> IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find another
>>>>>>> desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7 years).
>>>>>>>                
>>>>>> yeah good luck with that. Because gnome is moving in that direction
>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>              
>>>>>     There are other desktops besides GNOME and KDE.  Actually I prefer
>>>>>     the
>>>>>
>>>>> ICEWM window manager.  I was running a 1999 Dell 450mhz PIII with 128
>>>>> megs of *SYSTEM* ram until the summer of 2007.  Let's just say that
>>>>> GNOME and KDE were out of the question for me.  On my current desktop,
>>>>> ICEWM flies.  But I also have a netbook, and again GNOME and KDE are
>>>>> not usable.
>>>>>
>>>>>            
>>>>>> Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be bad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>              
>>>>>     Correction, is fat, bloated, and slow, must be bad.  I wonder if
>>>>>
>>>>> Microsoft's anti-linux strategy is to have its agents infiltrate the
>>>>> linux developer community, and turn linux into bloatware.
>>>>>            
>>>> You have been corrected on this point so many times I now think you are
>>>> just a stupid ass.
>>>>
>>>> It is not slow.
>>>>
>>>> You are the only one saying that. People who do use Nepomuk say that it
>>>> is not slow and does not hog resources (initial scan excepted).
>>>>          
>>> you can even tell nepomuk how much memory it is allowed to use ...
>>>        
>> Can you nice the thing too?  That would work.  I set emerge to 5 and I
>> can't even tell that emerge is running most of the time.  There may be
>> times when I can but it is rare.
>>
>> I just don't get this thing that indexing is a resource hog.  I notice
>> updatedb running at night.  I have 329Gbs of "data" and updatedb only
>> takes a few minutes.  How is that a resource "hog"?  My machine is not
>> as old as some but it is slow going by the new machines that are out
>> now.  It's a AMD 2500+ with 2Gbs of ram.  I have had Linux on machines
>> as slow as 133MHz but never felt the need to disable indexing.
>>
>>      
> when updatedb runs your cache is shot afterwards. That is a known problems.
>
> Nepomuk is only noticable once: the first indexing run. After that it creates
> zero load.
>
>    

So cache is bad?  Heck, my cache is almost always full anyway.  Nothing 
new there.  If it is not updatedb then it will be something else.

Thing is, I can't tell any difference in my cache before, during or 
after.  I do have 2Gbs of ram here so maybe I just can't see the 
difference.  I guess I could always wait until 3:10AM and test this 
theory tho.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Dale wrote:
> chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> > On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Dale wrote:
> >> chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> >>> On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday 11 February 2010 13:50:54 Walter Dnes wrote:
> >>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 01:31:26AM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>> On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
> >>>>>>> IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find
> >>>>>>> another desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7
> >>>>>>> years).
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> yeah good luck with that. Because gnome is moving in that direction
> >>>>>> too.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>     There are other desktops besides GNOME and KDE.  Actually I
> >>>>>     prefer the
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> ICEWM window manager.  I was running a 1999 Dell 450mhz PIII with 128
> >>>>> megs of *SYSTEM* ram until the summer of 2007.  Let's just say that
> >>>>> GNOME and KDE were out of the question for me.  On my current
> >>>>> desktop, ICEWM flies.  But I also have a netbook, and again GNOME
> >>>>> and KDE are not usable.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>> Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be
> >>>>>> bad.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>     Correction, is fat, bloated, and slow, must be bad.  I wonder if
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Microsoft's anti-linux strategy is to have its agents infiltrate the
> >>>>> linux developer community, and turn linux into bloatware.
> >>>> 
> >>>> You have been corrected on this point so many times I now think you
> >>>> are just a stupid ass.
> >>>> 
> >>>> It is not slow.
> >>>> 
> >>>> You are the only one saying that. People who do use Nepomuk say that
> >>>> it is not slow and does not hog resources (initial scan excepted).
> >>> 
> >>> you can even tell nepomuk how much memory it is allowed to use ...
> >> 
> >> Can you nice the thing too?  That would work.  I set emerge to 5 and I
> >> can't even tell that emerge is running most of the time.  There may be
> >> times when I can but it is rare.
> >> 
> >> I just don't get this thing that indexing is a resource hog.  I notice
> >> updatedb running at night.  I have 329Gbs of "data" and updatedb only
> >> takes a few minutes.  How is that a resource "hog"?  My machine is not
> >> as old as some but it is slow going by the new machines that are out
> >> now.  It's a AMD 2500+ with 2Gbs of ram.  I have had Linux on machines
> >> as slow as 133MHz but never felt the need to disable indexing.
> > 
> > when updatedb runs your cache is shot afterwards. That is a known
> > problems.
> > 
> > Nepomuk is only noticable once: the first indexing run. After that it
> > creates zero load.
> 
> So cache is bad?  Heck, my cache is almost always full anyway.  Nothing
> new there.  If it is not updatedb then it will be something else.

no, cahce is great. That is the problem. Updatedb replaces the cached files 
with stuff you probably don't care about. Which is bad.

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 00:43:36 +0100, Christian Apeltauer wrote:

> If you do not want a piece of software, why should you install it?
> Installing and not using it instead of not installing it at all, is the
> wrong way and (to my opinion) it is defintely not the Gentoo way.

Clearly it is not optional, otherwise the ebuild would support the
existing semantic-desktop flag. If upstream have made this feature
compulsory, disabling it is not the Gentoo way either.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Dale wrote:
>    
>> chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
>>      
>>> On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Dale wrote:
>>>        
>>>> chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
>>>>          
>>>>> On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>>>>            
>>>>>> On Thursday 11 February 2010 13:50:54 Walter Dnes wrote:
>>>>>>              
>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 01:31:26AM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>> On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>> IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find
>>>>>>>>> another desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7
>>>>>>>>> years).
>>>>>>>>>                    
>>>>>>>> yeah good luck with that. Because gnome is moving in that direction
>>>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>      There are other desktops besides GNOME and KDE.  Actually I
>>>>>>>      prefer the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ICEWM window manager.  I was running a 1999 Dell 450mhz PIII with 128
>>>>>>> megs of *SYSTEM* ram until the summer of 2007.  Let's just say that
>>>>>>> GNOME and KDE were out of the question for me.  On my current
>>>>>>> desktop, ICEWM flies.  But I also have a netbook, and again GNOME
>>>>>>> and KDE are not usable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>> Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be
>>>>>>>> bad.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>      Correction, is fat, bloated, and slow, must be bad.  I wonder if
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Microsoft's anti-linux strategy is to have its agents infiltrate the
>>>>>>> linux developer community, and turn linux into bloatware.
>>>>>>>                
>>>>>> You have been corrected on this point so many times I now think you
>>>>>> are just a stupid ass.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is not slow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are the only one saying that. People who do use Nepomuk say that
>>>>>> it is not slow and does not hog resources (initial scan excepted).
>>>>>>              
>>>>> you can even tell nepomuk how much memory it is allowed to use ...
>>>>>            
>>>> Can you nice the thing too?  That would work.  I set emerge to 5 and I
>>>> can't even tell that emerge is running most of the time.  There may be
>>>> times when I can but it is rare.
>>>>
>>>> I just don't get this thing that indexing is a resource hog.  I notice
>>>> updatedb running at night.  I have 329Gbs of "data" and updatedb only
>>>> takes a few minutes.  How is that a resource "hog"?  My machine is not
>>>> as old as some but it is slow going by the new machines that are out
>>>> now.  It's a AMD 2500+ with 2Gbs of ram.  I have had Linux on machines
>>>> as slow as 133MHz but never felt the need to disable indexing.
>>>>          
>>> when updatedb runs your cache is shot afterwards. That is a known
>>> problems.
>>>
>>> Nepomuk is only noticable once: the first indexing run. After that it
>>> creates zero load.
>>>        
>> So cache is bad?  Heck, my cache is almost always full anyway.  Nothing
>> new there.  If it is not updatedb then it will be something else.
>>      
> no, cahce is great. That is the problem. Updatedb replaces the cached files
> with stuff you probably don't care about. Which is bad.
>
>    

I don't think I have ever seen my cache change when running updatedb.  
Maybe it is so small that it doesn't matter.  After all, I only have 
over 300GBs worth of files on the drives and 2Gbs of ram.  This makes me 
want to stay up tonight and test this theory.  o_O

Dale

:-)  :-)

[gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[walt]

On 02/11/2010 01:35 PM, Zeerak Waseem wrote:

> It just seems silly that if you want to use the newest version of kate, kmail etc.
 > that semantic-desktop is forced upon you, when you're not interested in having the
 > entire DE.

By the authority vested in me by My-Wife-the-Windows-User, I welcome you to
the gentoo-users mail list. (I don't recall your name from previous months,
but, nevermind.)

I see that you've taken some heat in return for your opinions, but you've
maintained a very civil and polite tone to your replies, and I admire you
for that.

On the other hand, may I politely suggest that, if you wish to use the latest
version of kate (or any other software including software from M$) you must
necessarily accept the decisions of the author of that software.  How could
it possibly be otherwise?

The Ultimate Solution is to develop your own software, of course, and be
the next M$/Google/Whoever.

Hey, I'm still working on it -- I'll get there, do-or-die!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Zeerak Waseem]

On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 04:04:38 +0100, walt <w41ter@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 02/11/2010 01:35 PM, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
>
>> It just seems silly that if you want to use the newest version of kate,  
>> kmail etc.
>  > that semantic-desktop is forced upon you, when you're not interested  
> in having the
>  > entire DE.
>
> By the authority vested in me by My-Wife-the-Windows-User, I welcome you  
> to
> the gentoo-users mail list. (I don't recall your name from previous  
> months,
> but, nevermind.)
>
> I see that you've taken some heat in return for your opinions, but you've
> maintained a very civil and polite tone to your replies, and I admire you
> for that.
>

Why thank you :-)

> On the other hand, may I politely suggest that, if you wish to use the  
> latest
> version of kate (or any other software including software from M$) you  
> must
> necessarily accept the decisions of the author of that software.  How  
> could
> it possibly be otherwise?
>

Well it can't be otherwise, however I do enjoy complaining, well about  
certain things anyway. Personally I installed kde, and realized I had no  
idea what on earth was on my computer and why, so I removed it and moved  
to openbox, and don't use any kde specific apps.
But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't  
dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems a  
bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand.

> The Ultimate Solution is to develop your own software, of course, and be
> the next M$/Google/Whoever.
>
> Hey, I'm still working on it -- I'll get there, do-or-die!
>
>

I just started a degree, to accomplish -something akin to- that ;-)


-- 
Zeerak

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Friday 12 February 2010 01:49:18 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Christian Apeltauer wrote:
> > Am Thu, 11 Feb 2010 01:18:42 +0000
> > 
> > schrieb Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>:
> > > On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:03:15 -0600, Roy Wright wrote:
> > > > IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find
> > > > another desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7
> > > > years).
> > > 
> > > It's so mandatory it takes a whole mouse click to turn it off :(
> > 
> > If you do not want a piece of software, why should you install it?
> > Installing and not using it instead of not installing it at all, is the
> > wrong way and (to my opinion) it is defintely not the Gentoo way.
> > 
> >  Well, I have drawn the conclusions and got rid of kmail and am on the
> > 
> > verge of migrating the whole desktop. I loved kde-3.5, I seriously
> > tried kde-4.*, but I could never befriend with it. And one point I
> > detaste is that "Social Semantic Desktop" thing (as Nepomuk is
> > characterized on its afore mentioned wikipedia page). For me it is just
> > another instance of what Kant called "selbstverschuldete
> > Unmündigkeit" (self-incurred immaturity).
> 
> sure. Be able to tag and quickly find information is immature.
> 
> Question, when you have KDE installed and some app pulls in gconf or gvfs -
> do you throw the same temper tamtrum?

People by and large do not comprehend what KDE-4 is all about, and the naming 
convention actually reinforces this misconception. Folk think KDE-4 is the 
natural evolution of KDE-3.5 - more of the same just more of it and supposedly 
better.

Nothing could be further from the truth. KDE-4 is nothing like KDE-3.5 and 
visual similarities are just that - superficial. kmail's appearance in 3.5 was 
good and in 4 it looks the same because there is no good reason to change the 
skin. Underlying that superficial layer you find something entirely new which 
bears no resemblance at all the the old one, and this has been confounding 
people since the first code commits.

KDE-4 is built on an array of new technologies: Plasma, Akonadi, Nepomuk, 
Phonon, Solid, Strigi and more

Those things encompass what KDE-4 is built to do, they are the reason for 
KDE-4's entire existence, it's raison d'etre. Without Plasma, it is just 
another desktop. Without Phonon, you have to use what came before together 
with it's problems.

There is a reason why latest versions of KDE do not have magic switches to 
remove semantic desktop:

SEMANTIC DESKTOP IS SUPPOSED TO BE THERE. IT IS THE ENTIRE REASON KDE4 EXISTS 
AT ALL.

Complaining about it reveals only a deep fundamental understanding of what the 
software is supposed to do, so folk should stop trying to shoehorn it into a 
box that the devs deliberately built it to not fit into.

To all those folk who do not like building a semantic desktop with kmail:

You need to get over it. Seriously. There are other options. 
Or try building a browser without an html rendering engine for a vivid example 
of what you are attempting. Don't bother trying to justify why this is not a 
valid analogy to KDE4 - it is a valid analogy and KDE really is what I 
described above. It's that way because the devs who built it say so.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote:

> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't  
> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems
> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand.

That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail
also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not
just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are
intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

"Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable."
  - Mark Twain

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Zeerak Waseem]

On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>  
wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
>
>> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't
>> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems
>> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand.
>
> That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail
> also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not
> just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are
> intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus.
>
>

Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit.
But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that  
aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is  
this the correct term?) dependencies.
Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an optional  
dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all  
the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I  
understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon probably  
Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they  
feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-)

In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Some don't  
mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to  
disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't  
consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's  
an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not  
using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus becomes  
bloat.

-- 
Zeerak

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Friday 12 February 2010 12:15:13 Zeerak Waseem wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>
> 
> wrote:
> > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
> >> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't
> >> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems
> >> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand.
> > 
> > That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail
> > also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not
> > just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are
> > intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus.
> 
> Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit.
> But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that
> aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is
> this the correct term?) dependencies.

Your entire argument is pointless and utterly without merit.

KDE is the way it is because that's how the devs built it. From a marketing 
perspective, it is correct the way it is because the vast majority of it's 
users will not understand or care about the point you are making and the DE 
was built for them.

I'll give you an analogy:

A new suspension bridge has permanent copper cladding on the stay wires. You 
are of the opinion that this should have been hot-pluggable and the city that 
paid for the bridge should have had the choice to fit aluminium cladding after 
the fact, and to be able to do so at the press of a button. You express this 
opinion to the bridge architect and present vast reams of made-up marketing 
fluff to support your point.

The bridge architect and his team of engineers listen to you, look at each 
other and cock their eyebrows. The architect looks back at you and says:

"Tough shit. We're not changing it now."

There's a difference between what you think is the right way to proceed and 
the way the devs chose. If you don't like where kmail is going, use claws



-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>
> 
> wrote:
> > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
> >> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't
> >> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems
> >> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand.
> > 
> > That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail
> > also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not
> > just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are
> > intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus.
> 
> Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit.
> But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that
> aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is
> this the correct term?) dependencies.
> Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an optional
> dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all
> the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I
> understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon probably
> Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they
> feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-)
> 
> In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Some don't
> mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to
> disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't
> consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's
> an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not
> using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus becomes
> bloat.

and luckily for you, there are a lot of 'soft' dependencies. kmail does not 
force you to install konqueror. It does not force you to install plasma-
desktop or systemsettings. It does not force you to install the printing 
manager .... 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[BRM]

----- Original Message ----

> From: Zeerak Waseem <zeerak.w@gmail.com>
> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
> >> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't
> >> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems
> >> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand.
> > That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail
> > also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not
> > just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are
> > intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus.
> Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit.
> But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that aren't 
> -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is this the 
> correct term?) dependencies.
> Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an optional dep. 
> It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all the files on 
> the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I understand 
> correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon probably Gnome users as 
> well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they feel the need for it. 
> Much like most other bits of software :-)

Obviously you don't understand the reason for the dependency.
It does not exist so that Kmail can index all the files on the system but for the opposite - 
so that Kmail can participate in the search by allowing the system to be able to search _its_ data.

And, btw, you're not turning it off within Kmail, but at the system - DE - level.
The application itself will still check to see if it could participate, only to have nothing turned on to support so then it doesn't do anything.
 
> In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint.

Question: are you a software developer?

Kmail probably has the dependency the way they do b/c it is far easier to make it one and let the system determine not to support the functionality
than it is to litter the codebase with "if (symanticDesktopEnabled)..." code.

> Some don't mind 
> the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to disable the 
> function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't consider it to be the 
> slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's an unnecessary feature forced 
> on them (mainly thinking of the people not using kde, but also those kde-users 
> that just disable it) and thus becomes bloat.

No more than it is bloat for gcc to support mmx/sse/sse2/sse3/sse4 when your processor cannot.

Ben

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Zeerak Waseem]

On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:01:22 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann  
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
>> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>
>>
>> wrote:
>> > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
>> >> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't
>> >> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems
>> >> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand.
>> >
>> > That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE,  
>> KMail
>> > also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE,  
>> not
>> > just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are
>> > intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus.
>>
>> Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit.
>> But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things  
>> that
>> aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is
>> this the correct term?) dependencies.
>> Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an  
>> optional
>> dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all
>> the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I
>> understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon  
>> probably
>> Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they
>> feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-)
>>
>> In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Some  
>> don't
>> mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to
>> disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't
>> consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's
>> an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not
>> using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus  
>> becomes
>> bloat.
>
> and luckily for you, there are a lot of 'soft' dependencies. kmail does  
> not
> force you to install konqueror. It does not force you to install plasma-
> desktop or systemsettings. It does not force you to install the printing
> manager ....
>

But then the question isn't whether there are a number of soft  
dependencies, but in the case of semantic-desktop whether -it- is a soft  
dependency. Like previously stated, I don't use kmail, nor do I intend to  
(I at least think I mentioned it). This is just my take on the matter of  
whether it is truly necessary, or even a good idea to have  
symantic-desktop as a hard dependency.
And as stated, this is not in the light of a full blown KDE env, but  
mainly in considerations to when you're using another window manager. Be  
it icewm, jwm, openbox or whatever. Should something that is an integrated  
part of the KDE desktop environment be forced on those that don't use KDE?
Our opinions on this matter obviously differ, and for that simple reason I  
find it interesting to find out -why- you think it's okay that they're  
being forced. And simply stating that the devs' decided that it was how it  
was done, is pretty much as nonconstructive argument as "dbus is bad  
because it's new". I'd like to find out why you seem to disagree, so  
please. By all means, enlighten me :-) (I am asking for it after all ;))

-- 
Zeerak

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Zeerak Waseem]

On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:46:57 +0100, BRM <bm_witness@yahoo.com> wrote:

> ----- Original Message ----
>
>> From: Zeerak Waseem <zeerak.w@gmail.com>
>> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
>> >> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't
>> >> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems
>> >> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand.
>> > That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE,  
>> KMail
>> > also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE,  
>> not
>> > just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are
>> > intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus.
>> Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit.
>> But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things  
>> that aren't
>> -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is this  
>> the
>> correct term?) dependencies.
>> Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an  
>> optional dep.
>> It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all the  
>> files on
>> the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I understand
>> correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon probably Gnome  
>> users as
>> well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they feel the need  
>> for it.
>> Much like most other bits of software :-)
>
> Obviously you don't understand the reason for the dependency.
> It does not exist so that Kmail can index all the files on the system  
> but for the opposite -
> so that Kmail can participate in the search by allowing the system to be  
> able to search _its_ data.
>
> And, btw, you're not turning it off within Kmail, but at the system - DE  
> - level.
> The application itself will still check to see if it could participate,  
> only to have nothing turned on to support so then it doesn't do anything.
>

Right, but then when the DE isn't a DE, but a window manager, a minimal  
one, then it's kind of a strange for a function to be forced outside of  
the specific DE. Well it seems strange to me anyway.

>> In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint.
>
> Question: are you a software developer?
>
> Kmail probably has the dependency the way they do b/c it is far easier  
> to make it one and let the system determine not to support the  
> functionality
> than it is to litter the codebase with "if (symanticDesktopEnabled)..."  
> code.
>

An aspiring one, yes. And it probably easier to just make it a hard dep,  
however if the quality of their application for anyone -not- using kde.  
It's sensible for it being set if you have kde, but if you don't have kde  
it just seems very out of place.

>> Some don't mind
>> the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to disable  
>> the
>> function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't consider it  
>> to be the
>> slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's an unnecessary  
>> feature forced
>> on them (mainly thinking of the people not using kde, but also those  
>> kde-users
>> that just disable it) and thus becomes bloat.
>
> No more than it is bloat for gcc to support mmx/sse/sse2/sse3/sse4 when  
> your processor cannot.
>
> Ben
>
>
>

I hadn't considered that particular thing, but yes, in a sense you're  
right. I mean there is difference for a compiler and a mail app, with gcc  
you can compile for another system so the it supports things your  
processor doesn't support doesn't necessarily mean that you won't need the  
support, with a mail app you can... But essentially, if you know you'll  
never need to compile for another processor, then yes I'd consider it  
bloat.

-- 
Zeerak

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[BRM]

----- Original Message ----

> From: Zeerak Waseem <zeerak.w@gmail.com>
> But then the question isn't whether there are a number of soft dependencies, but 
> in the case of semantic-desktop whether -it- is a soft dependency. Like 
> previously stated, I don't use kmail, nor do I intend to (I at least think I 
> mentioned it). This is just my take on the matter of whether it is truly 
> necessary, or even a good idea to have symantic-desktop as a hard dependency.

So you are complaining why? Why even install KMail if you are not going to use it?

> And as stated, this is not in the light of a full blown KDE env, but mainly in 
> considerations to when you're using another window manager. Be it icewm, jwm, 
> openbox or whatever. Should something that is an integrated part of the KDE 
> desktop environment be forced on those that don't use KDE?

The KDE devs in general (applications, etc.) with the exception of KOffice, and possibly Amarok, are all targeting their development as an integrated DE meant to be run under KDE.
They have been pretty clear as well that they do not intend the applications to be run stand-alone under other DE's (even Gnome) - that's not officially supported.
And this has been especially clear for KDE4 (see asiego's blog for example).

> Our opinions on this matter obviously differ, and for that simple reason I find 
> it interesting to find out -why- you think it's okay that they're being forced. 
> And simply stating that the devs' decided that it was how it was done, is pretty 
> much as nonconstructive argument as "dbus is bad because it's new". I'd like to 
> find out why you seem to disagree, so please. By all means, enlighten me :-) (I 
> am asking for it after all ;))

If you disagree with the devs lack of support for things beyond their requirements, or things that they explicitly have stated they do not support that is your issue.
The fact is the devs are building the application for the target environment - KDE4 - and no other DE (e.g. gnome, icewm, jwm, openbox, etc.).
So expect that dependencies will match what would be expected in that environment if you want to use the application.
Anything else is unreasonable of you as a user.

A simple analogy: The Chevy Malibu part not fitting in the Ford F150 vehicle. Sure, they may perform the same function in the end, but they were designed for completely different vehicles.

Ben

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:01:22 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann
> 
> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
> >> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>
> >> 
> >> wrote:
> >> > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
> >> >> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't
> >> >> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems
> >> >> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand.
> >> > 
> >> > That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE,
> >> 
> >> KMail
> >> 
> >> > also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE,
> >> 
> >> not
> >> 
> >> > just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are
> >> > intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus.
> >> 
> >> Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit.
> >> But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things
> >> that
> >> aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is
> >> this the correct term?) dependencies.
> >> Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an
> >> optional
> >> dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all
> >> the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I
> >> understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon
> >> probably
> >> Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they
> >> feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-)
> >> 
> >> In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Some
> >> don't
> >> mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to
> >> disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't
> >> consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's
> >> an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not
> >> using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus
> >> becomes
> >> bloat.
> > 
> > and luckily for you, there are a lot of 'soft' dependencies. kmail does
> > not
> > force you to install konqueror. It does not force you to install plasma-
> > desktop or systemsettings. It does not force you to install the printing
> > manager ....
> 
> But then the question isn't whether there are a number of soft
> dependencies, but in the case of semantic-desktop whether -it- is a soft
> dependency. Like previously stated, I don't use kmail, nor do I intend to
> (I at least think I mentioned it). This is just my take on the matter of
> whether it is truly necessary, or even a good idea to have
> symantic-desktop as a hard dependency.

yes it is a good idea. Because KDE is such a modular beast you can not just 
install kmail, konqueror or kate. You always need a bit more for full 
functionality. KDE strives to be a COMPLETE, networking, work and data sharing 
aware desktop solution.

Semantic-Desktop is a huge part of it.

If you never used nepomuk, you don't even know what you are missing.

> And as stated, this is not in the light of a full blown KDE env, but
> mainly in considerations to when you're using another window manager. 

you can use whatever WM you want in KDE. Isn't that nice.

> Be
> it icewm, jwm, openbox or whatever. Should something that is an integrated
> part of the KDE desktop environment be forced on those that don't use KDE?

what are you even talking about? 

> Our opinions on this matter obviously differ, and for that simple reason I
> find it interesting to find out -why- you think it's okay that they're
> being forced. And simply stating that the devs' decided that it was how it
> was done, is pretty much as nonconstructive argument as "dbus is bad
> because it's new". I'd like to find out why you seem to disagree, so
> please. By all means, enlighten me :-) (I am asking for it after all ;))

no, I have the feeling that you are trolling.

But see above. KDE goals is more than just a wm with some apps. That niche is 
filled by XFCE. And for being more than just a wm plus an asorted pile of apps, 
you need a certain infrastructure shared by the whole environment.

KDE apps use PHONON, so they don't have to deal with the underlying sound 
system.
KDE apps use SOLID, so they don't need to care about hardware, hot plugin, 
etc.
KDE apps use dbus so they can share code and easily communicate.

KDE apps use NEPOMUK, so they don't need to fiddle with different databases and 
concepts when working with information. And 'semanitic-desktop' is more than 
just finding a certain picture, textfile, email or link quickly.

When you are displaying a html email, Kmail uses the khtml kpart. Why don't 
you cry about that dependency? Who uses html mails anyway?

You might have missed the memo. But today information is more compley than 
keeping a tidy tree of directories. And finding information is harder with 
gigabytes of data than a couple of floppy disks. 

Semantic-desktop can help you with that. A lot. Your calender tells you, that 
there is a meeting tomorrow where SUBJECT A is on the agenda. A semantic 
desktop aware environment can give you all files concerned with SUBJECT A. All 
pictures, all texts, presentations, emails and bookmarks. in a split second.

http://nepomuk.kde.org/discover/user

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Mike Edenfield]

On 2/12/2010 10:14 AM, Zeerak Waseem wrote:

> But then the question isn't whether there are a number of soft
> dependencies, but in the case of semantic-desktop whether -it- is a soft
> dependency. Like previously stated, I don't use kmail, nor do I intend
> to (I at least think I mentioned it). This is just my take on the matter
> of whether it is truly necessary, or even a good idea to have
> symantic-desktop as a hard dependency.

No, it's not a soft dependency.  Yes, it's a hard 
dependency.  Yes, it's a good idea.  Yes, it's necessary. 
No, no amount of pointless whining about "bloat" is going to 
change things.

If you want to use KDE-4 applications, you use semantic 
desktop.  If you don't want to use semantic desktop, you 
don't use KDE-4 applications.

Yay for choice.

--Mike

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Zeerak Waseem]

On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:51:01 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann  
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
>> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:01:22 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann
>>
>> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> > On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick  
>> <neil@digimed.co.uk>
>> >>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
>> >> >> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't
>> >> >> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just  
>> seems
>> >> >> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand.
>> >> >
>> >> > That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE,
>> >>
>> >> KMail
>> >>
>> >> > also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive  
>> DE,
>> >>
>> >> not
>> >>
>> >> > just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps  
>> are
>> >> > intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus.
>> >>
>> >> Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit.
>> >> But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things
>> >> that
>> >> aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft  
>> (is
>> >> this the correct term?) dependencies.
>> >> Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an
>> >> optional
>> >> dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index  
>> all
>> >> the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does  
>> if I
>> >> understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon
>> >> probably
>> >> Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if-  
>> they
>> >> feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-)
>> >>
>> >> In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Some
>> >> don't
>> >> mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to
>> >> disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and  
>> don't
>> >> consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others  
>> it's
>> >> an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people  
>> not
>> >> using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus
>> >> becomes
>> >> bloat.
>> >
>> > and luckily for you, there are a lot of 'soft' dependencies. kmail  
>> does
>> > not
>> > force you to install konqueror. It does not force you to install  
>> plasma-
>> > desktop or systemsettings. It does not force you to install the  
>> printing
>> > manager ....
>>
>> But then the question isn't whether there are a number of soft
>> dependencies, but in the case of semantic-desktop whether -it- is a soft
>> dependency. Like previously stated, I don't use kmail, nor do I intend  
>> to
>> (I at least think I mentioned it). This is just my take on the matter of
>> whether it is truly necessary, or even a good idea to have
>> symantic-desktop as a hard dependency.
>
> yes it is a good idea. Because KDE is such a modular beast you can not  
> just
> install kmail, konqueror or kate. You always need a bit more for full
> functionality. KDE strives to be a COMPLETE, networking, work and data  
> sharing
> aware desktop solution.
>
> Semantic-Desktop is a huge part of it.
>
> If you never used nepomuk, you don't even know what you are missing.

I have tried it, briefly so I won't claim to know all the merits, but it  
didn't seem to be a huge addition to my life. To each his own however :-)
I don't know, I just considered flexibility and as much being as far  
independent of anything that isn't strictly related to the core functions  
of the application.
But again, this is just my take, and the entire development with KDE is  
interesting to follow and I'll surely be following this development with a  
great interest.
>
>> And as stated, this is not in the light of a full blown KDE env, but
>> mainly in considerations to when you're using another window manager.
>
> you can use whatever WM you want in KDE. Isn't that nice.
>
>> Be
>> it icewm, jwm, openbox or whatever. Should something that is an  
>> integrated
>> part of the KDE desktop environment be forced on those that don't use  
>> KDE?
>
> what are you even talking about?
>

Well what I mean is that Semantic-desktop is a part of the KDE DE, right?  
So anyone not using the fullblown DE, but simply a few apps is being  
forced to install semantic-desktop with various KDE apps.
And sure you can use whatever WM in KDE, but that was never really the  
point, at least not how I intended it, pardons if I was too vague about  
it. My point was if you only run a window manager and not any DE at all.

>> Our opinions on this matter obviously differ, and for that simple  
>> reason I
>> find it interesting to find out -why- you think it's okay that they're
>> being forced. And simply stating that the devs' decided that it was how  
>> it
>> was done, is pretty much as nonconstructive argument as "dbus is bad
>> because it's new". I'd like to find out why you seem to disagree, so
>> please. By all means, enlighten me :-) (I am asking for it after all ;))
>
> no, I have the feeling that you are trolling.
>

Oh, well I'm very sorry that you get that impression, I am actually quite  
interested in some arguments for why you consider it to be okay (which are  
being provided throughout your post :-)). But I very much apologise for  
the misunderstanding. (It would hardly be good sport to start trolling  
when I sent out a mail a few hours ago, asking to keep cheekiness to a  
bare minimum :-) )

> But see above. KDE goals is more than just a wm with some apps. That  
> niche is
> filled by XFCE. And for being more than just a wm plus an asorted pile  
> of apps,
> you need a certain infrastructure shared by the whole environment.
>
> KDE apps use PHONON, so they don't have to deal with the underlying sound
> system.
> KDE apps use SOLID, so they don't need to care about hardware, hot  
> plugin,
> etc.
> KDE apps use dbus so they can share code and easily communicate.
>
> KDE apps use NEPOMUK, so they don't need to fiddle with different  
> databases and
> concepts when working with information. And 'semanitic-desktop' is more  
> than
> just finding a certain picture, textfile, email or link quickly.
>

Would you care to expand on this? Because I pretty much had the  
semantic-desktop thing down to being finding something certain quickly :-)

> When you are displaying a html email, Kmail uses the khtml kpart. Why  
> don't
> you cry about that dependency? Who uses html mails anyway?
>

Plenty of newsletters do, Star wars newsletter, splitreason newsletter,  
and I believe sony psp newsletter as well just to name a few, so no I  
don't complain about it in the least. It's still very much used.

> You might have missed the memo. But today information is more compley  
> than
> keeping a tidy tree of directories. And finding information is harder  
> with
> gigabytes of data than a couple of floppy disks.
>

Yes, it is harder to find and keep track of files amongst x-hundred GB of  
data, the way I see it though, a logical directory tree can help with that.

> Semantic-desktop can help you with that. A lot. Your calender tells you,  
> that
> there is a meeting tomorrow where SUBJECT A is on the agenda. A semantic
> desktop aware environment can give you all files concerned with SUBJECT  
> A. All
> pictures, all texts, presentations, emails and bookmarks. in a split  
> second.
>
> http://nepomuk.kde.org/discover/user
>
>
>

Well I'll hand it to you, that is smart. I would argue that much of the  
same thing could be accomplished with a logical directory tree, but there  
are some things that can't obviously. :-)

-- 
Zeerak

[gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[walt]

Zeerak Waseem wrote:

> I just started a degree, to accomplish -something akin to- that ;-)

Ah, good.  Let me give you some free advice, well in advance.  When
it comes time to pick people for your thesis committee -- pick ones
who love to argue.  I think it may save you some pain later.

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Walter Dnes]

On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 02:37:53PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote

> You have been corrected on this point so many times I now think you
> are just a stupid ass.
> 
> It is not slow.
> 
> You are the only one saying that. People who do use Nepomuk say that
> it is not slow and does not hog resources (initial scan excepted).

  a) Nepomuk is not slow and does not hog resources
  b) dbus    is not slow and does not hog resources
  c) hal     is not slow and does not hog resources
  d) ....... is not slow and does not hog resources
  etc, etc, etc.

  Throw in enough "little stuff" and it eventually adds up.  We seem to
be talking past each other.  It's like the pay-TV channel you don't want
being bundled in basic cable.  They may claim that they "only cost a
dollar a month, and surely you can afford that".  Throw in 100 such
channels, and your cable bill gets ridiculous, and people start
demanding a-la-carte.  The same principle applies here.

  I agree with the concept that people who don't want KDE dependancies,
e.g. dbus, shouldn't use KDE apps.  Therefore, I avoid amarok, kaffeine,
kplayer, etc.  What got me started in this thread was the fact that what
had been a formerly-standalone media player (audacious), now pretty much
demands dbus.  dbus would be "bundled in" to my "basic service", i.e.
ICEWM.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 02:37:53PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote
>
>    
>> You have been corrected on this point so many times I now think you
>> are just a stupid ass.
>>
>> It is not slow.
>>
>> You are the only one saying that. People who do use Nepomuk say that
>> it is not slow and does not hog resources (initial scan excepted).
>>      
>    a) Nepomuk is not slow and does not hog resources
>    b) dbus    is not slow and does not hog resources
>    c) hal     is not slow and does not hog resources
>    d) ....... is not slow and does not hog resources
>    etc, etc, etc.
>
>    Throw in enough "little stuff" and it eventually adds up.  We seem to
> be talking past each other.  It's like the pay-TV channel you don't want
> being bundled in basic cable.  They may claim that they "only cost a
> dollar a month, and surely you can afford that".  Throw in 100 such
> channels, and your cable bill gets ridiculous, and people start
> demanding a-la-carte.  The same principle applies here.
>
>    I agree with the concept that people who don't want KDE dependancies,
> e.g. dbus, shouldn't use KDE apps.  Therefore, I avoid amarok, kaffeine,
> kplayer, etc.  What got me started in this thread was the fact that what
> had been a formerly-standalone media player (audacious), now pretty much
> demands dbus.  dbus would be "bundled in" to my "basic service", i.e.
> ICEWM.
>
>    

I went into a Konsole, adjusted my fonts to just big enough I could even 
see them, typed in top and guess what, I couldn't even get dbus or hal 
to show up.  Udev was waaaaay down at the very bottom and it shows it is 
"sleeping" at the moment.

The list was showing 39 lines of running processes.  Yep, udev was at 
39.  The others don't even make the top 40.  Now those are a resource hog.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Samstag 13 Februar 2010, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 02:37:53PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote
> 
> > You have been corrected on this point so many times I now think you
> > are just a stupid ass.
> > 
> > It is not slow.
> > 
> > You are the only one saying that. People who do use Nepomuk say that
> > it is not slow and does not hog resources (initial scan excepted).
> 
>   a) Nepomuk is not slow and does not hog resources
>   b) dbus    is not slow and does not hog resources
>   c) hal     is not slow and does not hog resources
>   d) ....... is not slow and does not hog resources
>   etc, etc, etc.
> 
>   Throw in enough "little stuff" and it eventually adds up.  We seem to
> be talking past each other.  It's like the pay-TV channel you don't want
> being bundled in basic cable.  They may claim that they "only cost a
> dollar a month, and surely you can afford that".  Throw in 100 such
> channels, and your cable bill gets ridiculous, and people start
> demanding a-la-carte.  The same principle applies here.
> 
>   I agree with the concept that people who don't want KDE dependancies,
> e.g. dbus, shouldn't use KDE apps.  Therefore, I avoid amarok, kaffeine,
> kplayer, etc.  What got me started in this thread was the fact that what
> had been a formerly-standalone media player (audacious), now pretty much
> demands dbus.  dbus would be "bundled in" to my "basic service", i.e.
> ICEWM.

#except that dsbus is not a KDE application. Just grep to portage tree for 
apps that use dbus.
The result might be a bit shocking.

Btw, do you have a car? But certainly you drive stick. Unsyncronized. Because 
everything else is 'bloat'. And your tv has no way to find channels. You do it 
manually - with a screwdriver, I am sure.

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> On Samstag 13 Februar 2010, Walter Dnes wrote:
>    
> #except that dsbus is not a KDE application. Just grep to portage tree for
> apps that use dbus.
> The result might be a bit shocking.
>
> Btw, do you have a car? But certainly you drive stick. Unsyncronized. Because
> everything else is 'bloat'. And your tv has no way to find channels. You do it
> manually - with a screwdriver, I am sure.
>
>    

Now that was funny.  I had a TV like that many many years ago.  It was 
color but just barely.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-)

P. S.  I also drive a stick.  I don't like the repair rates or costs on 
automatic transmissions.

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Stroller]

On 13 Feb 2010, at 15:42, Dale wrote:
>> ...
>> Btw, do you have a car? But certainly you drive stick.  
>> Unsyncronized. Because
>> everything else is 'bloat'. ...
>
> P. S.  I also drive a stick.  I don't like the repair rates or costs  
> on automatic transmissions.

Except your manual gearbox probably has a synchronised (synchromesh?)  
transmission.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manual_transmission#Unsynchronized_transmission

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
>
> On 13 Feb 2010, at 15:42, Dale wrote:
>>> ...
>>> Btw, do you have a car? But certainly you drive stick. 
>>> Unsyncronized. Because
>>> everything else is 'bloat'. ...
>>
>> P. S.  I also drive a stick.  I don't like the repair rates or costs 
>> on automatic transmissions.
>
> Except your manual gearbox probably has a synchronised (synchromesh?) 
> transmission.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manual_transmission#Unsynchronized_transmission 
>
>
> Stroller.
>

It may at that.  I dunno.  It is a little hard headed when it is cold 
outside tho.  It takes a bit of effort to hit those gears just right so 
that they mesh together.  So, it may be synced but it doesn't always act 
like it.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Saturday 13 February 2010 14:07:05 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> >   I agree with the concept that people who don't want KDE dependancies,
> >
> > e.g. dbus, shouldn't use KDE apps.  Therefore, I avoid amarok, kaffeine,
> > kplayer, etc.  What got me started in this thread was the fact that what
> > had been a formerly-standalone media player (audacious), now pretty much
> > demands dbus.  dbus would be "bundled in" to my "basic service", i.e.
> > ICEWM.
> 
> #except that dsbus is not a KDE application. Just grep to portage tree for 
> apps that use dbus.
> The result might be a bit shocking.
> 
> Btw, do you have a car? But certainly you drive stick. Unsyncronized.

Oy! What are you trying to say?

All my cars are stick. Down here in deepest darkest Africa you pay a premium 
for auto so no-one in their right mind buys them except old ladies and trendy 
hippy naffs. And we need a clutch to get the car out of the potholes that 
adorn the streets.

The bikes are all crash boxes because all bikes are like that (except Vespas 
and Chinese scooters, but I don't have any of those). On the track the clutch 
is mostly pointless once you're moving.

I highly recommend drivers to gain the skill of driving a vehicle crash-style 
without a clutch. Comes in useful sometimes.

:-)

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Sonntag 14 Februar 2010, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Saturday 13 February 2010 14:07:05 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > >   I agree with the concept that people who don't want KDE dependancies,
> > > 
> > > e.g. dbus, shouldn't use KDE apps.  Therefore, I avoid amarok,
> > > kaffeine, kplayer, etc.  What got me started in this thread was the
> > > fact that what had been a formerly-standalone media player
> > > (audacious), now pretty much demands dbus.  dbus would be "bundled in"
> > > to my "basic service", i.e. ICEWM.
> > 
> > #except that dsbus is not a KDE application. Just grep to portage tree
> > for apps that use dbus.
> > The result might be a bit shocking.
> > 
> > Btw, do you have a car? But certainly you drive stick. Unsyncronized.
> 
> Oy! What are you trying to say?
> 
> All my cars are stick. Down here in deepest darkest Africa you pay a
> premium for auto so no-one in their right mind buys them except old ladies
> and trendy hippy naffs. And we need a clutch to get the car out of the
> potholes that adorn the streets.
> 
> The bikes are all crash boxes because all bikes are like that (except
> Vespas and Chinese scooters, but I don't have any of those). On the track
> the clutch is mostly pointless once you're moving.
> 
> I highly recommend drivers to gain the skill of driving a vehicle
> crash-style without a clutch. Comes in useful sometimes.
> 
> :-)

the point was not stick but unsyncronized ;)

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sunday 14 February 2010 13:02:48 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > I highly recommend drivers to gain the skill of driving a vehicle
> > crash-style without a clutch. Comes in useful sometimes.
> >
> > 
> >
> > :-)
> 
> the point was not stick but unsyncronized ;)


I know. I just felt like tossing sounding in that sounded awfully clever :-)


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Enrico Weigelt]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:


> KDE apps use PHONON, so they don't have to deal with the underlying sound 
> system.
> KDE apps use SOLID, so they don't need to care about hardware, hot plugin, 
> etc.
> KDE apps use dbus so they can share code and easily communicate.

One thing I never understood about dbus is why does an IPC deamon
depend on X ?
And to phonon, why does an audio api depend not just on X, but also Qt ?


cu
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

 cellphone: +49 174 7066481   email: info@metux.de   skype: nekrad666
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Enrico Weigelt]

BRM wrote:

> It does not exist so that Kmail can index all the files on the 
> system but for the opposite - so that Kmail can participate in
> the search by allowing the system to be able to search _its_ data.

Just to let me get the point right: kmail provides some kind of
search/date integration driver into the semantic-desktop framework ?

Why does this have to happen in a MUA ? Why not in an separate
service ?


cu
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

 cellphone: +49 174 7066481   email: info@metux.de   skype: nekrad666
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Sonntag 14 Februar 2010, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> BRM wrote:
> > It does not exist so that Kmail can index all the files on the
> > system but for the opposite - so that Kmail can participate in
> > the search by allowing the system to be able to search _its_ data.
> 
> Just to let me get the point right: kmail provides some kind of
> search/date integration driver into the semantic-desktop framework ?
> 
> Why does this have to happen in a MUA ? Why not in an separate
> service ?

kmail provides the HOOKS. Also,  we had enough people complaining about bloat 
just because of dbus. Another service? Great - but then shut up about dbus.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Sonntag 14 Februar 2010, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > KDE apps use PHONON, so they don't have to deal with the underlying sound
> > system.
> > KDE apps use SOLID, so they don't need to care about hardware, hot
> > plugin, etc.
> > KDE apps use dbus so they can share code and easily communicate.
> 
> One thing I never understood about dbus is why does an IPC deamon
> depend on X ?
> And to phonon, why does an audio api depend not just on X, but also Qt ?
> 
> 
> cu

dbus:
luckily X is not a mandatory dependendcy for dbus.

phonon: because phonon is part of qt? And qt is more than just a toolkit?

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Enrico Weigelt]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> Another service?

Yes, a service that will be started only on-demand.

> Great - but then shut up about dbus.

Who the frak are you to tell me shut up ?!


cu
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

 cellphone: +49 174 7066481   email: info@metux.de   skype: nekrad666
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Enrico Weigelt]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> phonon: because phonon is part of qt? And qt is more than 
> just a toolkit?

What is it then ? An own OS ? ;-o


cu
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

 cellphone: +49 174 7066481   email: info@metux.de   skype: nekrad666
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Sonntag 14 Februar 2010, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > phonon: because phonon is part of qt? And qt is more than
> > just a toolkit?
> 
> What is it then ? An own OS ? ;-o

are you insisting going down the stupid road?

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Sonntag 14 Februar 2010, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > Another service?
> 
> Yes, a service that will be started only on-demand.
> 

so I have to wait for the service to start first? Sounds even crappier.

> > Great - but then shut up about dbus.
> 
> Who the frak are you to tell me shut up ?!

attacking dbus or nepomuk and then proposing a 'small service' - sounds really 
clever.

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 2232 bytes --]

On Sunday 14 February 2010 12:40:59 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Sunday 14 February 2010 13:02:48 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > > I highly recommend drivers to gain the skill of driving a vehicle
> > > crash-style without a clutch. Comes in useful sometimes.
> > >
> > > :-)
> >
> > the point was not stick but unsyncronized ;)
> 
> I know. I just felt like tossing sounding in that sounded awfully clever
>  :-)

I also like manual gearboxes and for some years I was driving an old Series 
IIA Land Rover which had straight cut gears on first and second and it whined 
when driven at any speed.  If you didn't double declutch to go from 2nd to 1st 
and occasionally from 3rd to 2nd you would eventually end up with a box-full 
of gears and no forward drive!

I also happen to own a couple of old PCs which I try to keep lean and I don't 
mind the odd double declutching to change gears.  Now, I understand the 
development philosophy of KDE4 since this was very well explained, but that 
does not stop me wishing that the developers were a bit more modular in their 
approach.  This is because I would like to use a few KDE apps, but do not want 
to have to download and install a load of ever increasing dependencies.  I am 
after a pick 'n mix from the sweet shop, rather than being 'forced' to have 
one of each.

However, the point has been well made by many.  KDE4 is not KDE3.x and with 
KDE4 you get the full enchilada because that's what the developers have 
produced.  Since I do not have the ability (or time) to fork KDE4 into my own 
flavour I will very much have to make do and be grateful with what developers 
care to offer.  As I progressively upgrade my hardware all this aforementioned 
'bloat' will no doubt be less of a concern, but as things are maturing in the 
Linux land my old laptop has been getting slower and slower over the years 
when running X.  I can blame this on Xorg, but the applications themselves are 
getting <aheam> heavier somewhat too.

I wonder if there is enough of a user requirement here for some of us to knock 
up a few wiki pages of how to build a slimmer gentoo, choices of lightweight 
WMs, desktop apps of choice, etc.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wednesday 17 February 2010 01:21:22 Mick wrote:
> However, the point has been well made by many.  KDE4 is not KDE3.x and
> with  KDE4 you get the full enchilada because that's what the developers
> have produced.  Since I do not have the ability (or time) to fork KDE4
> into my own flavour I will very much have to make do and be grateful with
> what developers care to offer.  As I progressively upgrade my hardware all
> this aforementioned 'bloat' will no doubt be less of a concern, but as
> things are maturing in the Linux land my old laptop has been getting
> slower and slower over the years when running X.  I can blame this on
> Xorg, but the applications themselves are getting <aheam> heavier somewhat
> too.
> 
> I wonder if there is enough of a user requirement here for some of us to
> knock  up a few wiki pages of how to build a slimmer gentoo, choices of
> lightweight WMs, desktop apps of choice, etc.

The "gentoo wiki" (I can never remember the URL - it's the user maintained 
one) already has a great many such pages. In particular lxde and xfce4 fly on 
older hardware and is well received by and large by people wanting lean and 
mean desktops. The various *box WMs also had decent writeups on getting them 
running last time I looked.

A few eyeballs on those pages and updating them if necessary would not go 
amiss. Many people would like to have slimmer alternatives to the usual 
monstrous culprits: firefox, thunderbird, openoffice, evolution.

KDE4 does not suit everyone (neither are Ferraris and Toyotas), so while it is 
important to understand what KDE4 is and what the limits are, and not try to 
make it something other than what it is, there is definitely room for systems 
completely devoid of anything from KDE and/or Gnome.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Mittwoch 17 Februar 2010, Mick wrote:
> On Sunday 14 February 2010 12:40:59 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > On Sunday 14 February 2010 13:02:48 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > > > I highly recommend drivers to gain the skill of driving a vehicle
> > > > crash-style without a clutch. Comes in useful sometimes.
> > > > 
> > > > :-)
> > > 
> > > the point was not stick but unsyncronized ;)
> > 
> > I know. I just felt like tossing sounding in that sounded awfully clever
> > 
> >  :-)
> 
> I also like manual gearboxes and for some years I was driving an old Series
> IIA Land Rover which had straight cut gears on first and second and it
> whined when driven at any speed.  If you didn't double declutch to go from
> 2nd to 1st and occasionally from 3rd to 2nd you would eventually end up
> with a box-full of gears and no forward drive!
> 
> I also happen to own a couple of old PCs which I try to keep lean and I
> don't mind the odd double declutching to change gears.  Now, I understand
> the development philosophy of KDE4 since this was very well explained, but
> that does not stop me wishing that the developers were a bit more modular
> in their approach.  This is because I would like to use a few KDE apps,
> but do not want to have to download and install a load of ever increasing
> dependencies.  I am after a pick 'n mix from the sweet shop, rather than
> being 'forced' to have one of each.
> 
> However, the point has been well made by many.  KDE4 is not KDE3.x and with
> KDE4 you get the full enchilada because that's what the developers have
> produced.  Since I do not have the ability (or time) to fork KDE4 into my
> own flavour I will very much have to make do and be grateful with what
> developers care to offer.  As I progressively upgrade my hardware all this
> aforementioned 'bloat' will no doubt be less of a concern, but as things
> are maturing in the Linux land my old laptop has been getting slower and
> slower over the years when running X.  I can blame this on Xorg, but the
> applications themselves are getting <aheam> heavier somewhat too.
> 
> I wonder if there is enough of a user requirement here for some of us to
> knock up a few wiki pages of how to build a slimmer gentoo, choices of
> lightweight WMs, desktop apps of choice, etc.

you want dependency nightmare?

openoffice depends on libwpd
libwpd depends on libgsf
libgsf pulls gconf in.

I don't need wordperfect, I don't want gnome. No way to get rid of that crap.

Even basic libs are pulling in tons of gnome crap today. Why? KDE does not 
infest low level stuff. If you don't want KDE stuff, you don't have to install 
it. But thanks to some §§$$%&§$@& even low level libs and apps pull in that 
shit today.
If freedesktop wouldn't be that sick joke it is, such behaviour wouldn't be.

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Mick]

On 17 February 2010 00:12, Volker Armin Hemmann

> you want dependency nightmare?
>
> openoffice depends on libwpd
> libwpd depends on libgsf
> libgsf pulls gconf in.
>
> I don't need wordperfect, I don't want gnome. No way to get rid of that crap.

I know.  :-(

> Even basic libs are pulling in tons of gnome crap today. Why? KDE does not
> infest low level stuff. If you don't want KDE stuff, you don't have to install
> it. But thanks to some §§$$%&§$@& even low level libs and apps pull in that
> shit today.
> If freedesktop wouldn't be that sick joke it is, such behaviour wouldn't be.

One more reason why over the years I gravitated towards using KDE apps
and staying away from Gnome.  I think that a maturing Linux has
inevitably become heavier in terms of DEs and dependencies.  Even on
my new laptop I will be staying away from Gnome as a DE and am
thinking of giving LXDE a spin, to see if it is any better than
Fluxbox.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[BRM]

----- Original Message ----

> From: Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com>
> I also happen to own a couple of old PCs which I try to keep lean and I don't 
> mind the odd double declutching to change gears.  Now, I understand the 
> development philosophy of KDE4 since this was very well explained, but that 
> does not stop me wishing that the developers were a bit more modular in their 
> approach.  This is because I would like to use a few KDE apps, but do not want 
> to have to download and install a load of ever increasing dependencies.  I am 
> after a pick 'n mix from the sweet shop, rather than being 'forced' to have 
> one of each.

All I can say is try submitting a patch to the KDE folk.
They're not setting out to support that kind of environment, but you never know what kinds of patches they'll take.

They are looking at low-end systems and scalability (read asiego's blog for info) - from phones to netbooks to laptops/desktops to servers.

So if you want to run KDE4 on those lean+mean systems, check with them - there's probably a branch of KDE4 you can use.

Just 2 cents.

Ben

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[pk]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> openoffice depends on libwpd
> libwpd depends on libgsf
> libgsf pulls gconf in.

Hm. I actually have OO (non-binary version) installed althoughI dislike
bloat... However, I don't have gconf installed (USE: -gnome, globally in
make.conf). I run stable so that, of course, may be different for ~arch
or something...

> Even basic libs are pulling in tons of gnome crap today. Why? KDE does not 
> infest low level stuff. If you don't want KDE stuff, you don't have to install 
> it. But thanks to some §§$$%&§$@& even low level libs and apps pull in that 
> shit today.

Well, try to pull in K3b and you'll also get the "kitchen & the sink"
with _mandatory_ USE-flag 'accessibility' amongst other things. I had
K3b working fine before KDE4 with minimal KDE support libs. So I gave
K3b up. Oh, well, progress I guess... :-/

Best regards / MfG

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Dale]

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>
>    
>> openoffice depends on libwpd
>> libwpd depends on libgsf
>> libgsf pulls gconf in.
>>      
> Hm. I actually have OO (non-binary version) installed althoughI dislike
> bloat... However, I don't have gconf installed (USE: -gnome, globally in
> make.conf). I run stable so that, of course, may be different for ~arch
> or something...
>
>    
>> Even basic libs are pulling in tons of gnome crap today. Why? KDE does not
>> infest low level stuff. If you don't want KDE stuff, you don't have to install
>> it. But thanks to some §§$$%&§$@&  even low level libs and apps pull in that
>> shit today.
>>      
> Well, try to pull in K3b and you'll also get the "kitchen&  the sink"
> with _mandatory_ USE-flag 'accessibility' amongst other things. I had
> K3b working fine before KDE4 with minimal KDE support libs. So I gave
> K3b up. Oh, well, progress I guess... :-/
>
> Best regards / MfG
>
> Peter K
>
>    

What did you use in place of k3b?  Is it a GUI or command line?

Thanks,

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Mittwoch 17 Februar 2010, Dale wrote:
> chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> > Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> >> openoffice depends on libwpd
> >> libwpd depends on libgsf
> >> libgsf pulls gconf in.
> > 
> > Hm. I actually have OO (non-binary version) installed althoughI dislike
> > bloat... However, I don't have gconf installed (USE: -gnome, globally in
> > make.conf). I run stable so that, of course, may be different for ~arch
> > or something...
> > 
> >> Even basic libs are pulling in tons of gnome crap today. Why? KDE does
> >> not infest low level stuff. If you don't want KDE stuff, you don't have
> >> to install it. But thanks to some §§$$%&§$@&  even low level libs and
> >> apps pull in that shit today.
> > 
> > Well, try to pull in K3b and you'll also get the "kitchen&  the sink"
> > with _mandatory_ USE-flag 'accessibility' amongst other things. I had
> > K3b working fine before KDE4 with minimal KDE support libs. So I gave
> > K3b up. Oh, well, progress I guess... :-/
> > 
> > Best regards / MfG
> > 
> > Peter K
> 
> What did you use in place of k3b?  Is it a GUI or command line?
> 

you could try tkdvd. It is ugly but pretty much feature complete.

Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[pk]

Dale wrote:

> What did you use in place of k3b?  Is it a GUI or command line?

cdrecord. I also have installed, but I haven't used it yet, XFburn...

Best regards

Peter K