[gentoo-user] Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[gentoo-user] Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Grant Edwards]

On 2020-11-24, antlists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Cool, I'll have to read up on using volumes for that. How far back in
>> time can you go before you get to distros that would have problems?
>
> How old is LVM? It's been around for ages, I think.

We regularly run into customers running distros that came out 10 years
ago. Not long ago, I was working with a customer who was running RHEL 6
and kernel 2.6.32 on production machines.  Yes, RHEL 6 is still
supported (though not for long).  According to the LVM Wikipedia page,
2.6.32 is old enough that journalling filesystems didn't work
correctly on top of LVM. That said, it's quite possible RH backported
LVM improvements to 2.6.32 so that's not an issue.

Right now, I have a small "grub" partition which has menu that allows
chainloading any of dozen or so main partitions, each of which has a
linux distro installed (with a bootloader installed in that
partition). I've been reading up on LVM vs. grub, and all of the
examples I find of booting multiple distros on LVM don't seem to be
chainloading. Rather they point the "master" grub at the root
"partition" and that partition's .cfg file.  However, that assumes
that the distro uses grub, and that the .cfg file is compatible with
the "master" grub executables.  I'd rather not rely on that assumption
and just do chainloading like I always have.

In grub, does chainloading an LVM virtual partition work the same as
chainloading a "real" partition?

--
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 19:04:20 -0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:

> In grub, does chainloading an LVM virtual partition work the same as
> chainloading a "real" partition?

I suspect not as GRUB will be reading the menu files and GRUB doesn't
read from LVM volumes.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

"A hundred years of forgetting and it all comes rushing back..."

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[gentoo-user] Re: Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Grant Edwards]

On 2020-11-24, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 19:04:20 -0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> In grub, does chainloading an LVM virtual partition work the same as
>> chainloading a "real" partition?
>
> I suspect not as GRUB will be reading the menu files and GRUB doesn't
> read from LVM volumes.

Then what does grub's "lvm" module do, and how does it read the
distro's .cfg files from the LVM volumes in which the various distros
are installed?

--
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 23:25:38 -0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:

> >> In grub, does chainloading an LVM virtual partition work the same as
> >> chainloading a "real" partition?  
> >
> > I suspect not as GRUB will be reading the menu files and GRUB doesn't
> > read from LVM volumes.  
> 
> Then what does grub's "lvm" module do, and how does it read the
> distro's .cfg files from the LVM volumes in which the various distros
> are installed?

Maybe what you want. I haven't used LVM or GRUB much n the past several
years, so maybe it is OK now, although a quick web search before I posted
implied it wasn't. RTFM time?


-- 
Neil Bothwick

After all is said and done let there not be more said than done.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Wols Lists]

On 24/11/20 23:39, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 23:25:38 -0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:
> 
>>>> In grub, does chainloading an LVM virtual partition work the same as
>>>> chainloading a "real" partition?  
>>>
>>> I suspect not as GRUB will be reading the menu files and GRUB doesn't
>>> read from LVM volumes.  
>>
>> Then what does grub's "lvm" module do, and how does it read the
>> distro's .cfg files from the LVM volumes in which the various distros
>> are installed?
> 
> Maybe what you want. I haven't used LVM or GRUB much n the past several
> years, so maybe it is OK now, although a quick web search before I posted
> implied it wasn't. RTFM time?
> 
> 
I *think* the grub volume itself has to be plain, no lvm, mdadm etc. All
the stuff for that is in the initramfs, so grub loads the initramfs,
starts the kernel, the kernel starts pid 1 which can now start mdadm,
lvm etc, and then it can pivot root onto the proper root filesystem.

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 08:53:02 +0000, Wols Lists wrote:

> >>> I suspect not as GRUB will be reading the menu files and GRUB
> >>> doesn't read from LVM volumes.    
> >>
> >> Then what does grub's "lvm" module do, and how does it read the
> >> distro's .cfg files from the LVM volumes in which the various distros
> >> are installed?  
> > 
> > Maybe what you want. I haven't used LVM or GRUB much n the past
> > several years, so maybe it is OK now, although a quick web search
> > before I posted implied it wasn't. RTFM time?
> > 
> >   
> I *think* the grub volume itself has to be plain, no lvm, mdadm etc. All
> the stuff for that is in the initramfs, so grub loads the initramfs,
> starts the kernel, the kernel starts pid 1 which can now start mdadm,
> lvm etc, and then it can pivot root onto the proper root filesystem.

That was my thinking, that the kernel/initramfs was reading the LVs but
Grant mentioned the lvm module for GRUB so I broke the habit of a
lifetime and read the man page :-O

"GRUB 2 can read files directly from LVM and RAID devices."


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Top Oxymorons Number 6: Pretty ugly

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[gentoo-user] Re: Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Grant Edwards]

On 2020-11-25, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 08:53:02 +0000, Wols Lists wrote:
>
>> >>> I suspect not as GRUB will be reading the menu files and GRUB
>> >>> doesn't read from LVM volumes.    
>> >>
>> >> Then what does grub's "lvm" module do, and how does it read the
>> >> distro's .cfg files from the LVM volumes in which the various distros
>> >> are installed?  
>
> That was my thinking, that the kernel/initramfs was reading the LVs but
> Grant mentioned the lvm module for GRUB so I broke the habit of a
> lifetime and read the man page :-O
>
> "GRUB 2 can read files directly from LVM and RAID devices."

That was certainly the behavior described by the examples documented
by people who were using grub to boot multiple partitions by having a
master copy of grub with a menu that would then boot selected distros
installed within LVM volumes by having each of the master menu entries
load a new "distro" .cfg file from that LVM volume (each of the LVM
volume's .cfg file was maintained by the distro package manager).

But that relys on the assumption that the distros all run compatible
versions of Grub2.  What I was wondering was whether normal
chainloading would work (which wouldn't rely on that assumption).

--
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 15:20:04 -0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:

> > "GRUB 2 can read files directly from LVM and RAID devices."  
> 
> That was certainly the behavior described by the examples documented
> by people who were using grub to boot multiple partitions by having a
> master copy of grub with a menu that would then boot selected distros
> installed within LVM volumes by having each of the master menu entries
> load a new "distro" .cfg file from that LVM volume (each of the LVM
> volume's .cfg file was maintained by the distro package manager).
> 
> But that relys on the assumption that the distros all run compatible
> versions of Grub2.  What I was wondering was whether normal
> chainloading would work (which wouldn't rely on that assumption).

I would expect all versions of GRUB2 to use the same config syntax.
Changing the syntax between versions could mean an update rendering the
computer unbootable, which we would probably have heard about.

I'm not sure chainloading would work as that requires a drive definition
from which to load the boot sector.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

WINDOWS: Will Install Needless Data On Whole System

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[gentoo-user] Re: Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Grant Edwards]

On 2020-11-25, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 15:20:04 -0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> > "GRUB 2 can read files directly from LVM and RAID devices."  
>> 
>> That was certainly the behavior described [...]
>> 
>> But that relys on the assumption that the distros all run compatible
>> versions of Grub2.  What I was wondering was whether normal
>> chainloading would work (which wouldn't rely on that assumption).
>
> I would expect all versions of GRUB2 to use the same config syntax.
> Changing the syntax between versions could mean an update rendering the
> computer unbootable, which we would probably have heard about.

In some comments about the multiple-distro setups there were rather
vague references to occasional syntax problems between different
distro's versions of grub. I don't know if it was due a change that
was introduced upstream when grub was updated or some sort of RedHat
custom-feature-backporting-bastardization.

> I'm not sure chainloading would work as that requires a drive
> definition from which to load the boot sector.

I thought that's what LVM provided was a drive definition.

--
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 16:04:26 -0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:

> > I'm not sure chainloading would work as that requires a drive
> > definition from which to load the boot sector.  
> 
> I thought that's what LVM provided was a drive definition.

It's more like a partition definition, GRUB requires the boot sector/MBR
of a whole drive.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Bug: (n.) any program feature not yet described to the marketing
department.

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[gentoo-user] Re: Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Grant Edwards]

On 2020-11-25, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 16:04:26 -0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> > I'm not sure chainloading would work as that requires a drive
>> > definition from which to load the boot sector.  
>> 
>> I thought that's what LVM provided was a drive definition.
>
> It's more like a partition definition, GRUB requires the boot sector/MBR
> of a whole drive.

I'm asking about chainloading. Grub has already been loaded via MBR
and grub's partition (which can be a normal physical partition if
needed). Grub is now running and displaying its menu. Each of the menu
entries instructs grub to load the first sector of a specified
partition into RAM and execute it. That sector can contain grub, LILO,
windows boot manager, whatever.  If grub understands LVM volumes, then
can it read that first sector from an LVM volume instead of a physical
partition?

--
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 19:37:32 -0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:

> >> > I'm not sure chainloading would work as that requires a drive
> >> > definition from which to load the boot sector.    
> >> 
> >> I thought that's what LVM provided was a drive definition.  
> >
> > It's more like a partition definition, GRUB requires the boot
> > sector/MBR of a whole drive.  
> 
> I'm asking about chainloading. Grub has already been loaded via MBR
> and grub's partition (which can be a normal physical partition if
> needed). Grub is now running and displaying its menu. Each of the menu
> entries instructs grub to load the first sector of a specified
> partition into RAM and execute it. That sector can contain grub, LILO,
> windows boot manager, whatever.  If grub understands LVM volumes, then
> can it read that first sector from an LVM volume instead of a physical
> partition?

I think the only way to find out is to try it, but my gut feeling about
this is not good. However, I'd be happy for my gut to be proved wrong.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Confucius say :
He who play in root, eventually kill tree!

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[antlists]

On 25/11/2020 23:03, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 19:37:32 -0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:
> 
>>>>> I'm not sure chainloading would work as that requires a drive
>>>>> definition from which to load the boot sector.
>>>>
>>>> I thought that's what LVM provided was a drive definition.
>>>
>>> It's more like a partition definition, GRUB requires the boot
>>> sector/MBR of a whole drive.
>>
>> I'm asking about chainloading. Grub has already been loaded via MBR
>> and grub's partition (which can be a normal physical partition if
>> needed). Grub is now running and displaying its menu. Each of the menu
>> entries instructs grub to load the first sector of a specified
>> partition into RAM and execute it. That sector can contain grub, LILO,
>> windows boot manager, whatever.  If grub understands LVM volumes, then
>> can it read that first sector from an LVM volume instead of a physical
>> partition?
> 
> I think the only way to find out is to try it, but my gut feeling about
> this is not good. However, I'd be happy for my gut to be proved wrong.
> 
> 
Well, it should be able to do it with raid (you can partition an md-raid 
volume), so maybe the same with LVM?

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 08:53:02 +0000, Wols Lists wrote:
>
>> I *think* the grub volume itself has to be plain, no lvm, mdadm etc. All
>> the stuff for that is in the initramfs, so grub loads the initramfs,
>> starts the kernel, the kernel starts pid 1 which can now start mdadm,
>> lvm etc, and then it can pivot root onto the proper root filesystem.
> That was my thinking, that the kernel/initramfs was reading the LVs but
> Grant mentioned the lvm module for GRUB so I broke the habit of a
> lifetime and read the man page :-O
>
> "GRUB 2 can read files directly from LVM and RAID devices."
>
>


That makes it sound like /boot could be on LVM to me.  That sound right
to you?  If so, I'd bet /, root, could be on LVM and grub be able to
boot without a lot of extra effort.  It may even do so without a init
thingy, if one doesn't need it. 

If that is all doable, almost makes me want to move my OS to a new drive
and use LVM for everything.  That would be really nice.  Might be the
best thing since sliced bread and frozen pizza.  ROFL

Dale

:-)  :-) 

P. S.  I been meaning to ask this for ages now.  What happened to our
other Allan?  I think he was from Africa or something and admin'd a
bunch of puters there.  McKinnon or something like that was the past
name.  I haven't seen him post in a long time.  I hope he is OK and all. 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Peter Humphrey]

On Wednesday, 25 November 2020 15:20:41 GMT Dale wrote:

> P. S.  I been meaning to ask this for ages now.  What happened to our
> other Allan?  I think he was from Africa or something and admin'd a
> bunch of puters there.  McKinnon or something like that was the past
> name.  I haven't seen him post in a long time.  I hope he is OK and all. 

Yes, me too. South Africa, wasn't it? Perhaps a telecomms utility, though 
that's a guess.

I just assumed he'd finally grown tired of all us cloth-heads...

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Dale]

Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Wednesday, 25 November 2020 15:20:41 GMT Dale wrote:
>
>> P. S.  I been meaning to ask this for ages now.  What happened to our
>> other Allan?  I think he was from Africa or something and admin'd a
>> bunch of puters there.  McKinnon or something like that was the past
>> name.  I haven't seen him post in a long time.  I hope he is OK and all. 
> Yes, me too. South Africa, wasn't it? Perhaps a telecomms utility, though 
> that's a guess.
>
> I just assumed he'd finally grown tired of all us cloth-heads...
>


The last message I can find from him was in February of 2018.  I'm gonna
try to send a message direct.  See if he responds. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Dale]

Dale wrote:
> Peter Humphrey wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 25 November 2020 15:20:41 GMT Dale wrote:
>>
>>> P. S.  I been meaning to ask this for ages now.  What happened to our
>>> other Allan?  I think he was from Africa or something and admin'd a
>>> bunch of puters there.  McKinnon or something like that was the past
>>> name.  I haven't seen him post in a long time.  I hope he is OK and all. 
>> Yes, me too. South Africa, wasn't it? Perhaps a telecomms utility, though 
>> that's a guess.
>>
>> I just assumed he'd finally grown tired of all us cloth-heads...
>>
>
> The last message I can find from him was in February of 2018.  I'm gonna
> try to send a message direct.  See if he responds. 
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-) 
>


I got a message from him.  At least we will know he is OK.  All his
machines was switched to Arch Linux and he wasn't using Gentoo anymore. 
So, he unsubscribed and got active with Arch. 

Miss the guy but glad he is OK and nothing happened to him. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[gentoo-user]

[Thomas Mueller]

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> I got a message from him.  At least we will know he is OK.  All his
> machines was switched to Arch Linux and he wasn't using Gentoo anymore. 
> So, he unsubscribed and got active with Arch. 

> Miss the guy but glad he is OK and nothing happened to him. 

> Dale

> :-)  :-) 

When you mentioned the other Allan, I thought of Allan Gottlieb, who used to be on Gentoo list.

I think he was younger than me by two or three months?

I believe he is the same Allan Gottlieb I met years ago at The Rockefeller University when he was an (assistant? associate?) professor at CUNY in New York City.

I don't know if he is still living.

Regarding Arch, I believe Arch Linux is mainly binary-based, rather than source-based as is the case with Gentoo.

In May 2013, I joined Arch Linux emailing lists, asked the question about how an Arch system could be updated by building from source, as can be done with FreeBSD and NetBSD.

Moderator rejected that message, stating that if I looked through the wiki, I could find the answer inside ten minutes, which I couldn't. 

FreeBSD, NetBSD and Gentoo emailing lists are not so hostile!

Not wanting to feel so tongue-tied, I unsubscribed and became an infant mortality on the Arch emailing lists.

This was the first and only open-source OS or distro that I rejected on sociological grounds.

Tom

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Thomas Mueller]

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> I got a message from him.  At least we will know he is OK.  All his
> machines was switched to Arch Linux and he wasn't using Gentoo anymore. 
> So, he unsubscribed and got active with Arch. 

> Miss the guy but glad he is OK and nothing happened to him. 

> Dale

> :-)  :-) 

When I sent this message the first time, I inadvertently forgot the Subject: line, hence this repeat sending.  Sorry!

When you mentioned the other Allan, I thought of Allan Gottlieb, who used to be on Gentoo list.

I think he was younger than me by two or three months?

I believe he is the same Allan Gottlieb I met years ago at The Rockefeller University when he was an (assistant? associate?) professor at CUNY in New York City.

I don't know if he is still living.

Regarding Arch, I believe Arch Linux is mainly binary-based, rather than source-based as is the case with Gentoo.

In May 2013, I joined Arch Linux emailing lists, asked the question about how an Arch system could be updated by building from source, as can be done with FreeBSD and NetBSD.

Moderator rejected that message, stating that if I looked through the wiki, I could find the answer inside ten minutes, which I couldn't. 

FreeBSD, NetBSD and Gentoo emailing lists are not so hostile!

Not wanting to feel so tongue-tied, I unsubscribed and became an infant mortality on the Arch emailing lists.

This was the first and only open-source OS or distro that I rejected on sociological grounds.

Tom

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Dale]

Thomas Mueller wrote:
>> I got a message from him.  At least we will know he is OK.  All his
>> machines was switched to Arch Linux and he wasn't using Gentoo anymore. 
>> So, he unsubscribed and got active with Arch. 
>> Miss the guy but glad he is OK and nothing happened to him. 
>> Dale
>> :-)  :-) 
> When I sent this message the first time, I inadvertently forgot the Subject: line, hence this repeat sending.  Sorry!
>
> When you mentioned the other Allan, I thought of Allan Gottlieb, who used to be on Gentoo list.
>
> I think he was younger than me by two or three months?
>
> I believe he is the same Allan Gottlieb I met years ago at The Rockefeller University when he was an (assistant? associate?) professor at CUNY in New York City.
>
> I don't know if he is still living.
>
> Regarding Arch, I believe Arch Linux is mainly binary-based, rather than source-based as is the case with Gentoo.
>
> In May 2013, I joined Arch Linux emailing lists, asked the question about how an Arch system could be updated by building from source, as can be done with FreeBSD and NetBSD.
>
> Moderator rejected that message, stating that if I looked through the wiki, I could find the answer inside ten minutes, which I couldn't. 
>
> FreeBSD, NetBSD and Gentoo emailing lists are not so hostile!
>
> Not wanting to feel so tongue-tied, I unsubscribed and became an infant mortality on the Arch emailing lists.
>
> This was the first and only open-source OS or distro that I rejected on sociological grounds.
>
> Tom

Yea, there is some good folks on this list.  Everyone tries to help in
different ways.  If one way isn't working, someone posts a alternative
method.  Some, myself included, get upset at software sometimes tho. 
Dare I mention hal??  The -user list has always been friendly.  The -dev
list is much better now but way back, it was like walking in a field of
land mines.  At one point, I unsubbed from -dev because it was more
about people going after each other than accomplishing anything.  Now, I
monitor it again to see what is coming around the next bend.  It's a
MUCH friendlier place now. 

I was referring to Alan McKinnon.  If he even thought he had a solution,
he'd post it.  Most of the time, it was a good option.  The biggest
thing, I'm just glad he is OK. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 26 Nov 2020 07:35:20 -0600, Dale wrote:

> Dare I mention hal??

Please don't :-(


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I distinctly remember forgetting that.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 26 Nov 2020 05:01:22 -0600, Dale wrote:

> I got a message from him.  At least we will know he is OK.  All his
> machines was switched to Arch Linux and he wasn't using Gentoo anymore. 
> So, he unsubscribed and got active with Arch. 

I had a feeling that what what he had done. I can't imagine him switching
to anything else.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I'm in shape ... Rounds a shape isn't it?

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Grub and multiple distros on LVM [was duplicate gentoo system ...]

[Jack]

On 11/26/20 8:48 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Nov 2020 05:01:22 -0600, Dale wrote:
>> I got a message from him.  At least we will know he is OK.  All his
>> machines was switched to Arch Linux and he wasn't using Gentoo anymore.
>> So, he unsubscribed and got active with Arch.
> I had a feeling that what what he had done. I can't imagine him switching
> to anything else.

My two desktops are both Gentoo, but both laptops started with Arch and 
switched to Artix Linux.  That's an Arch spinoff that still supports 
openrc (and other non-systemd init systems.)  Seems a better choice for 
someone who liked the choices of Gentoo.