From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from lists.gentoo.org ([140.105.134.102] helo=robin.gentoo.org) by nuthatch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1H3h8Q-0006OR-Lv for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Sun, 07 Jan 2007 23:09:03 +0000 Received: from robin.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with SMTP id l07N6DWK010392; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 23:06:13 GMT Received: from aa011msr.fastwebnet.it (aa011msr.fastwebnet.it [85.18.95.71]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l07Mut44009867 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 22:56:55 GMT Received: from [37.1.3.90] (37.1.3.90) by aa011msr.fastwebnet.it (7.3.105.6) (authenticated as cyclopia) id 456AED8A01BEC0B5 for gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 23:56:55 +0100 Message-ID: <45A18BC2.2090800@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 00:09:38 +0000 From: "b.n." User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061117) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Through the looking glass: Reflections on Gentoo References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by robin.gentoo.org id l07N6DWX010392 X-Archives-Salt: ce2d9b7b-619c-417f-84ba-6ad65fffd0f5 X-Archives-Hash: 0108e4a7fca12a3ee843243d22c23600 As a user -not a dev, both because I have not the required knowledge nor=20 the sparing time- these are my answers: > I apologize for intruding onto your mailinglist, but what I wish to= =20 > say is of > great enough importance to me.=20 You don't "intrude onto my mailing list" with people for something=20 that's of importance to you. You should intrude for something that's of=20 importance to *us*. This is a mutual help ML, not a confessional. > My contributions are not much to speak=20 > of, and > I've been silent for a long time. So I guess, like many before me, I=20 > will be > stoned as a heretic instead of being listened to - that, my friends, is= =20 > your > prerogative as freethinking humans, but I must ask you to hear me out a= nd > think about what I say, not what I am. I'm not stoning you as heretic or what. I simply think you're writing to=20 the wrong place. > Many good people, having all attained the rank of full developer, h= ave > retired, with a noticeable increase in the last trimester or so. Some h= ave > retired to avoid all the political tomfoolery that kept them from enjoy= ing > their work, some left as they found something else to fill that special= =20 > place > in their heart. Some, sadly, did not feel they could contribute enough = as > real life took its toll - may they find some time in the future. And a = very > selected few, regrettably, were retired against their will. This is sad, but Gentoo is a voluntary project, and I figure out people=20 can come and go as freely as they like. So, no news here. > These removals even went outside the ranks of developers - the host= ile > takeover of some IRC channels has caused unneeded tension between group= s=20 > that > should cooperate. It is a sad day when the appearance of a gentoo devel= oper > may be the first sign that your channel will now be censored and people > removed that have dissenting opinions. I don't know nothing about this, nor I care about inner fights between=20 you all. What I care about are sane code, a stable and up-to-date=20 system, and clever planning. I don't mind if you're doing it by biting=20 each other to death in a thunderdome or if you are all holding your=20 hands beneath a rainbow. Not because I'm cynic. Because I can do *plain nothing* to avoid this=20 -I'm not a dev, nor I can be in the near future. So what? Post this to=20 the devel mailing list. > While the politics around these cases make rational discussion quit= e=20 > difficult > it is obvious even to outsiders that this is not in the spirit of t= he > original Gentoo Metadistribution - it even violates many of those so-ca= lled > rules that were created to help the interaction between people from wil= dly > divergent backgrounds. So denounce the violation of these rules to competent people. > Devrel, as it stands, has always been controversial as everyone saw= a > different use for the rather unneeded concentration of power in the=20 > hands of > a few people. But when people are denied an appeal and devrel unilatera= lly > decides, ignoring policies and common sense, what is one supposed to th= ink? I don't know. I even don't know what devrel is. I suspect it's some=20 high-level devel committee. Problem is, unilateral decisions AFAIK are needed for almost any sane=20 free software project. Good OSS projects are, often (not always),=20 projects with good Benevolent Dictators For Life: linux kernel =3D Linus=20 Torvalds. perl =3D Larry Wall. python =3D Guido Van Rossum. openbsd =3D T= heo=20 de Raadt. ubuntu =3D Mark Shuttleworth, etc. Of course it is not always so, and Gentoo was apparently one of the=20 happy exceptions. Problem is, democracy doesn't work so well in many of=20 these cases -see the NetBSD vs OpenBSD forking, or the current sad state=20 of Debian, that literally got on its knees by its intestine political=20 fights. There have been and there are also thriving democratic projects, of=20 course, and there are examples of the opposite (XFree86), but if Gentoo=20 is not one of these, my own =E2=82=AC0.02 is: get a benevolent dictator a= nd=20 follow him. > So then, while that part is hard to discuss, I point at another iss= ue: > Everything that is not official (for certain undefined values of offici= al - > objectivity seems to be lost on many humans) is attacked, torn apart an= d > insulted. A great example of that is the Sunrise Overlay, which has bec= ome > quite a success, with a few of the community members becoming devs - at= the > same time I see with sadness that at least one dev has retired because = of > Sunrise. What madness there is when people leave such a great project=20 > because > they can't let other people live in peace. It is this meddling in all=20 > affairs > that crushes the spirit of freedom with a heavy boot - but as you all a= re > volunteers it is hard to understand how you can treat each other like t= hat. > Tolerance, my friends, doesn't cost you much and will bring you much go= od > karma. Can you point me at the relevant threads and IRC logs? Despite masked=20 with redundant prose and so on, your talking just looks like plain=20 (masked) bitching to me. However I could be wrong. So, threads and IRC=20 logs, please. > Now, you that have read this far may wonder, what is my point? Quit= e=20 > simple, > comrades. It is a warning I bring you, and I ask you to stop for a=20 > moment and > reflect upon the situation we have right now. It seems that a small=20 > group of > developers have ursurped power, leaving any checks and balances behind = them > to shape Gentoo in the image they see, not caring for any losses they=20 > cause. OMG THE GENTOO PINOCHETS ARE ARRIVING LOL!!!1!!111!!!sen(90)!!! Well, so it's time to fork? To change distro? My god! What horror! But,=20 wasn't free software beautiful for just these reasons? So that each one=20 could build on his own philosophy? Of course it's sad to see forks and the like, and it harms community (at=20 least in the short term, but it depends on the fork. Forking xfree86 to=20 have xorg, or debian to have ubuntu, have both been wonderful decisions=20 IMHO). But it is something you have to solve yourself -or, if you want=20 users support, just show damn FACTS. Logs. Mails on public mailing=20 lists. Blog posts. Written documents that agree with your claims. Otherwise you're just doing mischievous "hey we're in danger I'm the=20 messiah to save ya all" blah-blah. You're trolling to have manpower in=20 your own political fight. Not good, for someone that wants tolerance and=20 "karma". Note that I don't f***ing care for "usurpation of power", as long as it=20 builds on a good, free operating system. Ubuntu has enormous power=20 concentration, both political and economical, in the hands of a single=20 individual, but it's a damn good product for its niche. > It can not be in the interest of a community to be ruled by such a grou= p - > even among devs equality is hard to find as som just have to be better = than > others. Why is equality needed? People are *not* equal -face it. > I ask you not to redo the errors of the past and remember the lesso= ns > learned - there is so much that needs to be done, but no single person = has > the strength to do them. Cooperate you must, my friends. Only when you=20 > leave > the infighting and bureaucracy behind can you aspire to true greatness. So, stop bitching and work. Really. Squash some bug, and greatness will=20 arrive. > Beware though, as I do not claim to have all the answers you want. Not = a > single person, but only a group can find a solution to such a comples > interwoven technical, social and political problem. As I've pointed out before, often it's quite the contrary. Not that I want some kind of totalitarian dictatorship. Just someone=20 having a direction and ideas, with the help of the community, but=20 actually deciding instead on crystallize on endless discussions. > - Reduce the rules so that things can be done without a week of > discussion for every small idea Maybe good, maybe bad. Rules are needed, otherwise open the repositories=20 to anonymous access and let everyone patch the portage tree -who cares,=20 it's free software after all, isn't it? However, I understand that too much rules are a problem too. So,=20 remembering that I'm just talking to you because I'm curious, but not=20 because I can or want to do something (it's NOT my work/hobby) about it,=20 can you give us FACTS that support your hypothesis? I'm sorry, but I'm a=20 scientist in my real life. I want to see facts, usually. > - When a group can decide arbitrarily without needing the suppor= t of > any democratic counterweight, what is the point of any voting? Make sur= e=20 > that > noone has too much power. So that things get to a grinding halt when there's no consensus.=20 Wonderful... > - Analyse the fluctuations in developers > - how many retire because of political reasons? > - how many are recruited? > - how can the environment be improved so that people can enjoy t= heir > work and not care about silly problems? This is a good thing to do, sure. Self-analysis cannot harm. > - Ignore the existing problems, fork and pray that you can do better Maybe. > It is here that I must interject with another problem - some groups= =20 > complain > that they are understaffed, but reject candidates just because; some gr= oups > obviously can't manage on their own but deceive themselves into believi= ng > they are doing fine and refuse any help. Some groups are not doing what= =20 > their > group should be and attack people that try to do what they refuse to do. Huh? First you want less rules and more democray, then you attack groups=20 that "are not doing what their group should be"? You're a very confused fellow. > So, with that being said, I hope that things change for the better. Me too, but I'm really unsure you're really helping. m. --=20 gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list