[gentoo-user] wtf do all the Layout Options mean in gnome keyboard preferences?

[gentoo-user] wtf do all the Layout Options mean in gnome keyboard preferences?

[Robert Persson]

I want to be able to use an international keyboard layout in X.
Something like the Apple U.S. layout would be really nice, but the U.S.
English Alternative International would do me fine for the moment.

The trouble is that I don't know how to get at all those extra
characters and diacritics. The Gnome keyboard preferences has a tab for
"layout options", but I don't have much clue what all the options mean.
Is the euro key or the accute accent deadkey to be accessed by switching
"group" or do I need to choose the "third level"? Or should I use "alt"
as "alt" and not as "meta", whatever that means (I know it has something
to do with emacs, but after that I'm lost). I have tried various
combinations of this and that, but I can't get anything to work.

Many thanks
Robert
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Re: [gentoo-user] wtf do all the Layout Options mean in gnome keyboard preferences?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Sunday 25 June 2006 13:27, Robert Persson wrote:
> I want to be able to use an international keyboard layout in X.
> Something like the Apple U.S. layout would be really nice, but the U.S.
> English Alternative International would do me fine for the moment.

I have no experience with gnome so can't help you there. To get the us 
international keryborad layout now you should be able to do:

# setxkbmap us_intl

To get it permanently you can edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf and find the XkbLayout 
Option in the InputDevice section that relates to your keyboard:

Section "InputDevice"
	Identifier  "???"
	Driver  "kbd"
[...]
	Option "XkbLayout"  "us_intl"
EndSection

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] wtf do all the Layout Options mean in gnome keyboard preferences?

[Robert Persson]

Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:
> On Sunday 25 June 2006 13:27, Robert Persson wrote:
>   
>> I want to be able to use an international keyboard layout in X.
>> Something like the Apple U.S. layout would be really nice, but the U.S.
>> English Alternative International would do me fine for the moment.
>>     
>
> I have no experience with gnome so can't help you there. To get the us 
> international keryborad layout now you should be able to do:
>
> # setxkbmap us_intl
>
> To get it permanently you can edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf and find the XkbLayout 
> Option in the InputDevice section that relates to your keyboard:
>
> Section "InputDevice"
> 	Identifier  "???"
> 	Driver  "kbd"
> [...]
> 	Option "XkbLayout"  "us_intl"
> EndSection
>
>   
Thanks Bo.

The problem I have is not in choosing us_intl, which is quite easy in 
gnome. The problem is that I don't know how to get it so that when I 
press either the alt or the win key I get all those extra characters. 
There's a lot of terminology I don't understand. Am I trying to "switch 
group" or am I trying to "choose the third level"? Both of these terms 
sound like what I am trying to do, but which is which? Added to that is 
all this business about alt being set or not being set to meta and so 
on. I don't really have a clue when alt is actually alt and when it is 
meta, just as I don't understand the difference between alt and option 
when I am trying to run a remote linux session in Apple X11. So I end up 
twiddling with the settings, trying one thing and then another, but I 
haven't yet managed to get to those extra characters. Compare this to 
macos, even very ancient version of it, where you get a very rich 
keyboard layout out of the box. Not only umlauts, but bullets, ellipses 
and the 2nd letter of the Danish alphabet are available at the press of 
the alt/option key.

The second issue is that the US international keyboard, which I am 
planning to use, isn't exactly ideal. It was designed for an ordinary 
typewriter, where diareses and double quotes, as well as carets and 
circumflexes, are identical. But it is the only extended US keyboard 
readily available for X, which is the only reason I even consider using 
it. However it is actually unusable on a desktop without the extra 
modifier keys working because, where the standard US keyboard has 
quotes, carets and tildes, this one only has dead keys.

And even when the modifiers are working, this layout is unnecessarily 
awkward to use for someone writing predominantly in English because 
frequently used characters, such as quotes, are harder to type than the 
foreign language characters that are only used occasionally. As I said, 
the Apple keyboard layouts are vastly superior. Unfortunately my 
attempts to create a custom, Apple-like layout (when I was using KDE) 
didn't work. I just don't understand xkb well enough.
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Re: [gentoo-user] wtf do all the Layout Options mean in gnome keyboard preferences?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Monday 26 June 2006 01:36, Robert Persson wrote:
> The problem is that I don't know how to get it so that when I 
> press either the alt or the win key I get all those extra characters.

I don't think that pressing alt, win or meta should provide any extra 
characters with the us international keyboard layout.

> Added to that is all this business about alt being set or not being set to
> meta and so on.

I don't think that is relevant to the layout. Only to functionality in certain 
programs like e.g. emacs as you mentioned. Many others too.

> Compare this to macos, even very ancient version of it, where you get a very
> rich keyboard layout out of the box.

I wouldn't know...

> Not only umlauts, but bullets, ellipses and the 2nd letter of the Danish
> alphabet are available at the press of the alt/option key.

The second letter in the danish alphabet is b... ;)

> The second issue is that the US international keyboard, which I am
> planning to use, isn't exactly ideal. It was designed for an ordinary
> typewriter, where diareses and double quotes, as well as carets and
> circumflexes, are identical.

Are you absolutely sure they are identical? When I press a dead key once 
nothing happens. The following press be it the say key, space or some vowel 
determines what it becomes...

> But it is the only extended US keyboard readily available for X, which is
> the only reason I even consider using it. However it is actually unusable on
> a desktop without the extra modifier keys working because, where the
> standard US keyboard has quotes, carets and tildes, this one only has dead
> keys. 

You should not need modifier keys for that. Just AltGr (the right alt key on 
my keyboard).

> As I said, the Apple keyboard layouts are vastly superior. Unfortunately my
> attempts to create a custom, Apple-like layout (when I was using KDE)
> didn't work. I just don't understand xkb well enough.

Does [1] help you?

[1] http://hansmi.ch/articles/apple-keyboard-with-linux

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] wtf do all the Layout Options mean in gnome keyboard preferences?

[Robert Persson]

Sorry for taking so long to reply to this.

My mistake was to assume that all changes in gnome keyboard preferences
took effect immediately. That's why nothing seemed to work. I now have
the win keys as 3rd level choosers and I can type
åååååååååååååååååååååååååååååååååååååå to my heart's content. I was also
unaware that you could use the space key after a deadkey, which is a lot
easier than a vulcan nerve pinch. Anyway, thanks very much for your
help, Bo.

One further question I have is, does anyone know a good guide to
customising a keyboard layout and installing it properly so that X will
recognise it? The guide I have tried so far didn't work for me. I simply
want to add a few characters (e.g. em_dash) to the empty spaces on the
US international keyboard.

btw, the mac keyboard article Bo suggested was about how to make mac
modifier keys useful under linux and not about keyboard layouts as such.

Many thanks,
Robert

Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:
> On Monday 26 June 2006 01:36, Robert Persson wrote:
>   
>> The problem is that I don't know how to get it so that when I 
>> press either the alt or the win key I get all those extra characters.
>>     
>
> I don't think that pressing alt, win or meta should provide any extra 
> characters with the us international keyboard layout.
>
>   
>> Added to that is all this business about alt being set or not being set to
>> meta and so on.
>>     
>
> I don't think that is relevant to the layout. Only to functionality in certain 
> programs like e.g. emacs as you mentioned. Many others too.
>
>   
>> Compare this to macos, even very ancient version of it, where you get a very
>> rich keyboard layout out of the box.
>>     
>
> I wouldn't know...
>
>   
>> Not only umlauts, but bullets, ellipses and the 2nd letter of the Danish
>> alphabet are available at the press of the alt/option key.
>>     
>
> The second letter in the danish alphabet is b... ;)
>
>   
>> The second issue is that the US international keyboard, which I am
>> planning to use, isn't exactly ideal. It was designed for an ordinary
>> typewriter, where diareses and double quotes, as well as carets and
>> circumflexes, are identical.
>>     
>
> Are you absolutely sure they are identical? When I press a dead key once 
> nothing happens. The following press be it the say key, space or some vowel 
> determines what it becomes...
>
>   
>> But it is the only extended US keyboard readily available for X, which is
>> the only reason I even consider using it. However it is actually unusable on
>> a desktop without the extra modifier keys working because, where the
>> standard US keyboard has quotes, carets and tildes, this one only has dead
>> keys. 
>>     
>
> You should not need modifier keys for that. Just AltGr (the right alt key on 
> my keyboard).
>
>   
>> As I said, the Apple keyboard layouts are vastly superior. Unfortunately my
>> attempts to create a custom, Apple-like layout (when I was using KDE)
>> didn't work. I just don't understand xkb well enough.
>>     
>
> Does [1] help you?
>
> [1] http://hansmi.ch/articles/apple-keyboard-with-linux
>
>   


-- 

Robert Persson

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