[gentoo-user] distrowatch and gentoo......

[gentoo-user] distrowatch and gentoo......

[Marco Calviani]

Hi list,
   i've recently read this short article on distrowatch:

http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20060626#news

What about these problems? Someone that's more inside the Gentoo
decision process, can explain better what's (if it is true) happening?

Best regards,
Marco
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Re: [gentoo-user] distrowatch and gentoo......

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Friday 30 June 2006 08:48, Marco Calviani wrote:
> What about these problems? Someone that's more inside the Gentoo
> decision process, can explain better what's (if it is true) happening?

With the growth that Gentoo is experiencing it gets harder and harder to make 
everybody happy. Those incidents mentioned are just some people who felt they 
had to make a lot of noise while leaving... For a long time now more people 
has joined than left and there are aproximately 300 Gentoo developers right 
now. Really, there is nothing to worry about...

You may want to read [1] which is written by a Gentoo developer and the lead 
of Devrel (developer relations).

[1] http://kloeri.livejournal.com/1305.html

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] distrowatch and gentoo......

[Daniel da Veiga]

On 6/30/06, Marco Calviani <marco.calviani@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi list,
>    i've recently read this short article on distrowatch:
>
> http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20060626#news
>
> What about these problems? Someone that's more inside the Gentoo
> decision process, can explain better what's (if it is true) happening?
>

Well, the guy got the attention he wanted.
If you follow GWN, you can see devs that come to the project, and
others leave, that's only natural, and if you leave a project, you
simply do not post the entire web with reasons that can only be taken
as highly personal and regarding the human relations inside Gentoo
Project. Why aren't the other developers answering? I have only one
guess... They really don't care... The project is going on and see
lots of discussions and improvements at all topics on the mailing
lists and foruns. Gentoo is not dying, not even loosing strenght. Its
growing, and growing is painfull, we all know that.

Now, distrowatch should pay more attention before posting news that
can lead to misunderstanding, probably the dev that left the project
had better relations inside distrowatch than inside Gentoo development
project ;)

-- 
Daniel da Veiga
Computer Operator - RS - Brazil
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
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PS PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+++ R+* tv b+ DI+++ D+ G+ e h+ r+ y++
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Re: [gentoo-user] distrowatch and gentoo......

[Marco Calviani]

Hi,
  thank you for posting me your thoughts. I think it too that this
community is very active and producing a very productive distro.

Thanks guys,
Marco

On 6/30/06, Daniel da Veiga <danieldaveiga@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/30/06, Marco Calviani <marco.calviani@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi list,
> >    i've recently read this short article on distrowatch:
> >
> > http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20060626#news
> >
> > What about these problems? Someone that's more inside the Gentoo
> > decision process, can explain better what's (if it is true) happening?
> >
>
> Well, the guy got the attention he wanted.
> If you follow GWN, you can see devs that come to the project, and
> others leave, that's only natural, and if you leave a project, you
> simply do not post the entire web with reasons that can only be taken
> as highly personal and regarding the human relations inside Gentoo
> Project. Why aren't the other developers answering? I have only one
> guess... They really don't care... The project is going on and see
> lots of discussions and improvements at all topics on the mailing
> lists and foruns. Gentoo is not dying, not even loosing strenght. Its
> growing, and growing is painfull, we all know that.
>
> Now, distrowatch should pay more attention before posting news that
> can lead to misunderstanding, probably the dev that left the project
> had better relations inside distrowatch than inside Gentoo development
> project ;)
>
> --
> Daniel da Veiga
> Computer Operator - RS - Brazil
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.1
> GCM/IT/P/O d-? s:- a? C++$ UBLA++ P+ L++ E--- W+++$ N o+ K- w O M- V-
> PS PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+++ R+* tv b+ DI+++ D+ G+ e h+ r+ y++
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] distrowatch and gentoo......

[Rumen Yotov]

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Daniel da Veiga wrote:
> On 6/30/06, Marco Calviani <marco.calviani@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi list,
>>    i've recently read this short article on distrowatch:
>>
>> http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20060626#news
>>
>> What about these problems? Someone that's more inside the Gentoo
>> decision process, can explain better what's (if it is true) happening?
>>
> 
> Well, the guy got the attention he wanted.
> If you follow GWN, you can see devs that come to the project, and
> others leave, that's only natural, and if you leave a project, you
> simply do not post the entire web with reasons that can only be taken
> as highly personal and regarding the human relations inside Gentoo
> Project. Why aren't the other developers answering? I have only one
> guess... They really don't care... The project is going on and see
> lots of discussions and improvements at all topics on the mailing
> lists and foruns. Gentoo is not dying, not even loosing strenght. Its
> growing, and growing is painfull, we all know that.
> 
> Now, distrowatch should pay more attention before posting news that
> can lead to misunderstanding, probably the dev that left the project
> had better relations inside distrowatch than inside Gentoo development
> project ;)
> 
Hi,
Don't wanna say anything, but all of you could just search -dev
ML-archives. There are two alternate package-managers in development.
Some sparks about dev/user overlays,sunrise-overlay,GWN etc. etc.
Not seen such turmoil in latest 3 years (and IMHO most things are
personal). No flames intended, just info.
Rumen

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Re: [gentoo-user] distrowatch and gentoo......

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Friday 30 June 2006 16:55, Rumen Yotov wrote:
> Don't wanna say anything, but all of you could just search -dev
> ML-archives. There are two alternate package-managers in development.
> Some sparks about dev/user overlays,sunrise-overlay,GWN etc. etc.
> Not seen such turmoil in latest 3 years (and IMHO most things are
> personal). No flames intended, just info.

Is there a point to this? Because I'm not sure I caught it... (Note that AFAIK 
both of those alternative package managers wish to be part of Gentoo.)

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] distrowatch and gentoo......

[James Ausmus]

On 6/30/06, Rumen Yotov <rumen@qrypto.org> wrote:
> Daniel da Veiga wrote:
<snip>
> Hi,
> Don't wanna say anything, but all of you could just search -dev
> ML-archives. There are two alternate package-managers in development.
> Some sparks about dev/user overlays,sunrise-overlay,GWN etc. etc.
> Not seen such turmoil in latest 3 years (and IMHO most things are
> personal). No flames intended, just info.
> Rumen

So, one thing that people seem to forget when they see a lot of
"conflict" going on in situations like these - it's almost always
(unless it gets *too* out of hand) a Good Thing. The fact that there
is a large group of developers and users that are willing to go
through the effort to have such discussions mean that they care *a
lot* about Gentoo and Gentoo's future. The fact that these things can
sometimes get a little heated encourages me even more - it means that
these people are *extremely* passionate about Gentoo, and Gentoo's
success! If you go through these recent "hot" discussions and
generalize them, here's pretty much what the theme is *every* time:

Person A: I have this great, cool, new, awesome idea that I want to
implement to make Gentoo a Better Thing!
Person B: OK - cool idea! However, I am concerned that by implementing
that Shiny New Idea, you make areas X and Y worse!
Person A & B: OK, lets see if we can fix this together.

OK, so, a lot of time, people who make developers are *not* people who
make good communicators, good mediators, etc. etc., so sometimes the
interactions don't go down *quite* as nicely as that. ;)

However, when you're reading the discussions, always keep this in
mind: These people are donating their time, brain power, effort, and
life. Due to the moderately high barrier to entry of becoming an
actual Dev (the reading, testing, mentoring, etc.), you can be pretty
damn sure that these people aren't here just to screw everyone else
over, or to screw Gentoo over. So, why are they here? Because they
love Gentoo, and they want to help make it even better.

So, basically, what I guess I'm trying to say, is that - yes,
sometimes things get a little heated, and yes, sometimes developers
don't communicate very well <gasp>, but, the cause behind *all* of
these discussions is a passion for making Gentoo better for us - the
users.

-James
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Re: [gentoo-user] distrowatch and gentoo......

[Rumen Yotov]

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Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:
> On Friday 30 June 2006 16:55, Rumen Yotov wrote:
>> Don't wanna say anything, but all of you could just search -dev
>> ML-archives. There are two alternate package-managers in development.
>> Some sparks about dev/user overlays,sunrise-overlay,GWN etc. etc.
>> Not seen such turmoil in latest 3 years (and IMHO most things are
>> personal). No flames intended, just info.
> 
> Is there a point to this? Because I'm not sure I caught it... (Note that AFAIK 
> both of those alternative package managers wish to be part of Gentoo.)
> 
Hi,
Yes but the question is which *one* will prevail (maybe it'll be better
if two or even three are used, based on user preferences etc.).
The way to go (as it's going now) is to standardize on the ebuild format
- the *data* in portage and open place for technical merits.
IMO this is just a temporary problem from which something better will
emerge, i truly hope so. Lets hope *everybody* will learn from it ;)
PS:BTW what you/others think of user-representatives idea?
Richard/Neil&others could be ones, both have technical&personal qualities.
See prev./last GWN. There's a voting thread somewhere in forums.g.o
Rumen

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Re: [gentoo-user] distrowatch and gentoo......

[Rumen Yotov]

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Hi,
James Ausmus wrote:
> On 6/30/06, Rumen Yotov <rumen@qrypto.org> wrote:
>> Daniel da Veiga wrote:
> <snip>
>> Hi,
>> Don't wanna say anything, but all of you could just search -dev
>> ML-archives. There are two alternate package-managers in development.
>> Some sparks about dev/user overlays,sunrise-overlay,GWN etc. etc.
>> Not seen such turmoil in latest 3 years (and IMHO most things are
>> personal). No flames intended, just info.
>> Rumen
> 
> So, one thing that people seem to forget when they see a lot of
> "conflict" going on in situations like these - it's almost always
> (unless it gets *too* out of hand) a Good Thing. The fact that there
> is a large group of developers and users that are willing to go
> through the effort to have such discussions mean that they care *a
> lot* about Gentoo and Gentoo's future. The fact that these things can
> sometimes get a little heated encourages me even more - it means that
> these people are *extremely* passionate about Gentoo, and Gentoo's
> success! If you go through these recent "hot" discussions and
> generalize them, here's pretty much what the theme is *every* time:
> 
Agreed.
> Person A: I have this great, cool, new, awesome idea that I want to
> implement to make Gentoo a Better Thing!
> Person B: OK - cool idea! However, I am concerned that by implementing
> that Shiny New Idea, you make areas X and Y worse!
> Person A & B: OK, lets see if we can fix this together.
> 
> OK, so, a lot of time, people who make developers are *not* people who
> make good communicators, good mediators, etc. etc., so sometimes the
> interactions don't go down *quite* as nicely as that. ;)
> 
So i hope *everybody* will learn something out of this.
There's *always* place for improvement ;)
> However, when you're reading the discussions, always keep this in
> mind: These people are donating their time, brain power, effort, and
> life. Due to the moderately high barrier to entry of becoming an
> actual Dev (the reading, testing, mentoring, etc.), you can be pretty
> damn sure that these people aren't here just to screw everyone else
> over, or to screw Gentoo over. So, why are they here? Because they
> love Gentoo, and they want to help make it even better.
> 
Yes, agree 100%. My thankfulness toward *all* devs.
> So, basically, what I guess I'm trying to say, is that - yes,
> sometimes things get a little heated, and yes, sometimes developers
> don't communicate very well <gasp>, but, the cause behind *all* of
> these discussions is a passion for making Gentoo better for us - the
> users.
>
Maybe each one need to make a *little* sacrifice if him/her own
ideas/opinions so to at least give a chance to others, to at least try
to prove their points. The art of making a compromise.
IMHO not all you think/see is true or right (just part of the whole).
Even if thinking (at that moment) that this is *a little* wrong.
> -James
Rumen

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Re: [gentoo-user] distrowatch and gentoo......

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Friday 30 June 2006 20:16, Rumen Yotov wrote:
> Yes but the question is which *one* will prevail (maybe it'll be better
> if two or even three are used, based on user preferences etc.).
> The way to go (as it's going now) is to standardize on the ebuild format
> - the *data* in portage and open place for technical merits.
> IMO this is just a temporary problem from which something better will
> emerge, i truly hope so. Lets hope *everybody* will learn from it ;)

I don't quite see how there is anything temporary about it. As I see 
standardizing the ebuilds is the permanent solution. It allows for several 
package managers to coexist (i.e. no *one* needs to prevail) and by looking 
at the standard one can always determine if a bug is in the ebuild or in the 
package manager. I think the discussion about package managers is an example 
of a heated discussion that ended out with the perfect solution.

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] distrowatch and gentoo......

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Friday 30 June 2006 08:48, Marco Calviani wrote:
> Hi list,
>    i've recently read this short article on distrowatch:
>
> http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20060626#news

read the comments.

read GWN

read planet gentoo.

It was explained several times.

A dev felt abused, he said, that he would retire because of dev-dev problemsn

After some mails, he rethought his decision and did not retire.

Blatantly said, devs come and devs go all the time. gentoo is a big project, 
and with every big project with lots of peoples involved there is some 
friction.
Some people can deal well with friction, others not. And some are even the 
cause of friction.

But there is no mass exodus so far. 

DON'T PANIC!
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[gentoo-user] Ignore this message

[Johnson, Maurice E CTR NSWCDL-K74]

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Just trying to unsubscribe from the right address

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Re: [gentoo-user] Ignore this message

[Farhan Ahmed]

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Johnson, Maurice E CTR NSWCDL-K74 wrote:
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	Please don't spam this list.. The unsubscribe address can be found
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Hope this Helps..
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