[gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Linux Java]

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I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.


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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Dale]

Linux Java wrote:

> I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.
>
I use KDE.  I tried Gnome and didn't like it.  Some people with
older/slower systems like Gnome or some other light desktops.

It really isn't about what others like, it's about what you like. 
Install them both, login and see which you like.

Me, no KDE, I'm in bad shape.

Dale
:-)
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Anthony Roy]

> I use KDE.  I tried Gnome and didn't like it.  Some people with

Me too. I've given Gnome a try several times (the latest on a recent
Ubuntu Live CD, and I just don't like the whole look and feel as much
as KDE, which is great IMHO.

--
Ant...

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Kristian Poul Herkild]

Anthony Roy skrev:
>>I use KDE.  I tried Gnome and didn't like it.  Some people with
> 
> 
> Me too. I've given Gnome a try several times (the latest on a recent
> Ubuntu Live CD, and I just don't like the whole look and feel as much
> as KDE, which is great IMHO.
> 
> --
> Ant...
> 

I prefer Gnome, but KDE has some nice elements as well. Use what works 
best for you.

The look and feel of Gnome is what I like the most. I'm only lacking 
some more advanced configuration options.

KDE however has some nifty things, and I've considered installing it on 
my own system, even though I prefer to have only one DE (well apart from 
those I test, like EDE and Gnustep).

-Kristian Poul Herkild
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Ernie Schroder]

On Friday 20 January 2006 06:40, a tiny voice compelled Kristian Poul Herkild 
to write:
> Anthony Roy skrev:
> >>I use KDE.  I tried Gnome and didn't like it.  Some people with
> >
> > Me too. I've given Gnome a try several times (the latest on a recent
> > Ubuntu Live CD, and I just don't like the whole look and feel as much
> > as KDE, which is great IMHO.
> >
> > --
> > Ant...
>
> I prefer Gnome, but KDE has some nice elements as well. Use what works
> best for you.
>
> The look and feel of Gnome is what I like the most. I'm only lacking
> some more advanced configuration options.
>
> KDE however has some nifty things, and I've considered installing it on
> my own system, even though I prefer to have only one DE (well apart from
> those I test, like EDE and Gnustep).
>
> -Kristian Poul Herkild

I've tried Gnome several times. I guess what turned me off was 6 or 7 years 
ago when I installed it and Nautilus virtually took over my machine. Granted 
I was a relative noobie to Linux, but KDE seemed to be much more to my 
liking.
Each time I've tried Gnome since, I suppose I was prejudiced against it. I'm 
56. I don't want to change. I do run Windowmaker on my older/slower machine, 
but that box just sit's there headless most of the time, doing it's own 
thing.
-- 
Regards, Ernie
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE? [OT]

[darren kirby]

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quoth the Linux Java:
> I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.

Unscientific:
Google for:
"kde rules" --> 40,900
"kde sucks" --> 9,660
"gnome rules" --> 554
"gnome sucks" --> 10,500

Draw your own conclusions.
-d
-- 
darren kirby :: Part of the problem since 1976 :: http://badcomputer.org
"...the number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected..."
- Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, June 1972

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE? [OT]

[b.n.]

> Unscientific:
> Google for:
> "kde rules" --> 40,900
> "kde sucks" --> 9,660
> "gnome rules" --> 554
> "gnome sucks" --> 10,500

Nice approach. I extend it.

"I love KDE" --> 959
"I hate KDE" --> 1670
"I love GNOME" --> 608
"I hate GNOME" --> 2040

"I use KDE" --> 43.500
"I don't use KDE" --> 851
"I use GNOME" --> 30.600
"I don't use GNOME" --> 23.700

Results seem very clear here.

Lightweight window managers war (Fluxbox VS WindowMaker):
--------------
"I use fluxbox" --> 636
"I don't use fluxbox" --> 75
"I use windowmaker" --> 541
"I don't use windowmaker" --> 114

"fluxbox rules" --> 431
"fluxbox sucks" --> 46
"windowmaker rules" --> 197
"windowmaker sucks" --> 41

"I love fluxbox" --> 531
"I hate fluxbox" --> 36
"I love windowmaker" --> 204
"I hate windowmaker" --> 23

It seems fluxbox wins: it is as hated, but not as loved/used.
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE? [OT]

[Abhay Kedia]

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On Friday 20 January 2006 15:01, darren kirby wrote:
>
> Unscientific:
> Google for:
> "kde rules" --> 40,900
> "kde sucks" --> 9,660
> "gnome rules" --> 554
> "gnome sucks" --> 10,500
>
> Draw your own conclusions.
..or we could always use googlefight ;)
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=kde&word2=gnome

-- 
Regards,
Abhay

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE? [OT]

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Friday 20 January 2006 22:02, Abhay Kedia wrote:
> On Friday 20 January 2006 15:01, darren kirby wrote:
> > Unscientific:
> > Google for:
> > "kde rules" --> 40,900
> > "kde sucks" --> 9,660
> > "gnome rules" --> 554
> > "gnome sucks" --> 10,500
> >
> > Draw your own conclusions.
>
> ..or we could always use googlefight ;)
> http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=kde&word2=gnome


which gives five different results on five tries. Four times KDE in front of 
gnome. one time gnome 2x the results of kde or gnome in the previous fights.

Seems to be flawed.
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:10:13 +0800, Linux Java wrote:

> I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.

Why? Use whatever suits you.

If you want to use the most popular desktop, you probably need WinXP :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

"Everything takes longer than expected, even when you take
  into account Hoffstead's Law." - Hoffstead's Law

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:

>On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:10:13 +0800, Linux Java wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.
>>    
>>
>
>Why? Use whatever suits you.
>
>If you want to use the most popular desktop, you probably need WinXP :)
>
>
>  
>


Which really sucks by the way.  LOL  It's worse than Gnome. 

Dale
:-)
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Ryan Viljoen]

I use Fluxbox but have been experimenting with KDE 3.5. I must say I
really like it however it is not the complete KDE I emerged all the
apps that I use and then emerged kdebase so I have the very very basic
KDE system without all the other rubbish and bloatware that you get.
KDE detects all my installed software and sorts out the menu and all.

Fluxbox for speed and simplicity and KDE for eyecandy (can lag a bit).
I despise gnome, I find it to be particularly backwards and I have not
found a nice looking gnome desktop as of yet compared to soem of the
KDE and fluxbox desktops around.

Anyway my 2cents.

--
Ryan Viljoen Bsc(Eng) (Electrical)

"Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable."
  - Mark Twain

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Paul]

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to get the most out of kde run the following commands :

emerge -C kde
emerge gnome-lite

:P

ok flame away



On 1/20/06, Ryan Viljoen <ravilj@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I use Fluxbox but have been experimenting with KDE 3.5. I must say I
> really like it however it is not the complete KDE I emerged all the
> apps that I use and then emerged kdebase so I have the very very basic
> KDE system without all the other rubbish and bloatware that you get.
> KDE detects all my installed software and sorts out the menu and all.
>
> Fluxbox for speed and simplicity and KDE for eyecandy (can lag a bit).
> I despise gnome, I find it to be particularly backwards and I have not
> found a nice looking gnome desktop as of yet compared to soem of the
> KDE and fluxbox desktops around.
>
> Anyway my 2cents.
>
> --
> Ryan Viljoen Bsc(Eng) (Electrical)
>
> "Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable."
>   - Mark Twain
>
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Dale]

Paul wrote:

> to get the most out of kde run the following commands :
>
> emerge -C kde
> emerge gnome-lite
>
> :P
>
> ok flame away
>
>
>



< cough cough >  Can we assume you don't like KDE?  LOL

No flames here.  I'm to pissed at kppp at the moment.  I can only get
mad at one thing/person at a time.  o_O  Cool huh?

Dale
:-)


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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Paul]

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my findings with KDE is that its bloadware
if I wanted bloat , I'd run windows

Gnome-lite is just that , light


It serves my purposes fine and the menus are easy to edit to my liking.

On 1/20/06, Dale <dalek@exceedtech.net> wrote:
>
> Paul wrote:
>
> > to get the most out of kde run the following commands :
> >
> > emerge -C kde
> > emerge gnome-lite
> >
> > :P
> >
> > ok flame away
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> < cough cough >  Can we assume you don't like KDE?  LOL
>
> No flames here.  I'm to pissed at kppp at the moment.  I can only get
> mad at one thing/person at a time.  o_O  Cool huh?
>
> Dale
> :-)
>
>
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:00:51 +0200, Paul wrote:

> my findings with KDE is that its bloadware
> if I wanted bloat , I'd run windows
> 
> Gnome-lite is just that , light

So a small part of GNOME is less bloated than all of KDE? That's a
revelation!


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Life Support System Failure - Reboot Patient (Y/n)?

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Stuart Howard]

Couldnt resist adding my 2p

I prefer to spend my "configuring time" ie. admin on the Big picture
eg. setting up mail, apache, firewall, .......
For the little things eg. desktop background one click icons to start
daily apps and so on I am happy to let others give me a pleasent
default.

So what this means for me is that I sort configs in a text editor of
choice [Vim] and let the KDE team do all the rest for me. I have
learnt that no matter how much you think you know about linux there
are always 10 levels of detail lower that you dont know so spend time
on the things you really care about rather than editing a long config
in order to gain a font in a light window manager.
for example,
I want to download the latest Gentoo live CD via bittorrent [save the
good peoples bandwidth] do I
a) Go for a console bittornado client and spend some time learning the
various flags/switchs in order to do this.
b) Have a ready GUI client in KDE that is start, paste, wait. No
thought required.

Prehaps not a great example but the principle is there .

Anyway long and short of this is that KDE fully bloated for me :]

stu

ps. I have noticed that on average with KDE running plus bagful of
usual apps and daemons I have around 130 process's running with Gnome
it used to be around 160, may not mean much I guess but just a small
observation.
pps.. oo oo forgot to say, nautilus chews the horses and knonqueror is
lovely [even if I can never spell it correctly :P ]


On 20/01/06, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:00:51 +0200, Paul wrote:
>
> > my findings with KDE is that its bloadware
> > if I wanted bloat , I'd run windows
> >
> > Gnome-lite is just that , light
>
> So a small part of GNOME is less bloated than all of KDE? That's a
> revelation!
>
>
> --
> Neil Bothwick
>
> Life Support System Failure - Reboot Patient (Y/n)?
>
>
>


--
"There are 10 types of people in this world: those who understand
binary, those who don't"

--Unknown

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Dirk Heinrichs]

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Am Freitag, 20. Januar 2006 13:00 schrieb ext Paul:

> my findings with KDE is that its bloadware
> if I wanted bloat , I'd run windows

I've heard rumours there are split ebuilds for KDE *SCNR*

Bye...

	Dirk
-- 
Dirk Heinrichs          | Tel:  +49 (0)162 234 3408
Configuration Manager   | Fax:  +49 (0)211 47068 111
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GPG Public Key C2E467BB | Keyserver: www.keyserver.net

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[darren kirby]

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quoth the Paul:
> my findings with KDE is that its bloadware

Right. It takes code to make software usable ;)

> if I wanted bloat , I'd run windows

You seem to be implying that the only problem with windows is its size...

> Gnome-lite is just that , light

So is fat-free ice cream, but I wouldn't eat it. Too brackish.

> It serves my purposes fine and the menus are easy to edit to my liking.

Then stick with it. Interestingly, that is 2 reasons why I use KDE. 

-d
-- 
darren kirby :: Part of the problem since 1976 :: http://badcomputer.org
"...the number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected..."
- Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, June 1972

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Ryan Viljoen]

> my findings with KDE is that its bloadware
> if I wanted bloat , I'd run windows
>
> Gnome-lite is just that , light
>
>
> It serves my purposes fine and the menus are easy to edit to my liking.

Ah! What gnome-lite is for gnome is what kdebase is for KDE.

emerge kdebase doesnt install all the rest of the crap. All it gives
you is the base KDE environment with your preinstalled programs such
as xine, mplayer, Eterm, Ajunta, The Gimp, gThumb et al works really
nicely.

Otherwise I whole heartedly agree that emerge gnome-lite is much
better then emerge KDE (full complete).

This is Gentoo... YOU HAVE THE POWER TO CHOOSE! :D

--
Ryan Viljoen Bsc(Eng) (Electrical)

"Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable."
  - Mark Twain

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Friday 20 January 2006 13:00, Paul wrote:
> my findings with KDE is that its bloadware
> if I wanted bloat , I'd run windows
>
>

KDE is not bloated, it is feature complete, fully integrated (while gnome is a 
collection  of third party applications) and while gnome takes away choices, 
KDE enables you to configure your desktop in ways you can hardly imagine.

Oh, and do you know that KDE is completly scriptable (?) - I meamn, you can 
administer KDE completly with scripts.
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:37:57 +0200, Paul wrote:

> to get the most out of kde run the following commands :
> 
> emerge -C kde
> emerge gnome-lite
> 
> :P
> 
> ok flame away

For what, pushing GNOME or top posting with full quotes?


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Oops. My brain just hit a bad sector.

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Dale]

Ryan Viljoen wrote:

>I use Fluxbox but have been experimenting with KDE 3.5. I must say I
>really like it however it is not the complete KDE I emerged all the
>apps that I use and then emerged kdebase so I have the very very basic
>KDE system without all the other rubbish and bloatware that you get.
>KDE detects all my installed software and sorts out the menu and all.
>
>Fluxbox for speed and simplicity and KDE for eyecandy (can lag a bit).
>I despise gnome, I find it to be particularly backwards and I have not
>found a nice looking gnome desktop as of yet compared to soem of the
>KDE and fluxbox desktops around.
>
>Anyway my 2cents.
>
>--
>Ryan Viljoen Bsc(Eng) (Electrical)
>
>"Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable."
>  - Mark Twain
>
>  
>


I must admit, I tried Fluxbox a long time ago.  Even on this fast rig,
AMD2500+, it was nice and fast.  I just like KDE and all the eye candy. 
I have a slide show for my desktop.  Love my ladies.  LOL

That fluxbox sure is fast.  It would be great for a slow rig, 400MHz or
less.  Would make a good light desktop for a noobie on a server since it
is so light.  I like you did not like Gnome at all.  Maybe if I had a
slower rig.  I ran KDE on a 400MHz machine before, bloated Mandrake at
that.  LOL

Each his/her own.

Dale
:-)

I can't believe I just connected and I can send email with Mozilla.  If
my connection would just speed up a bit.  o_O
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Martins Steinbergs]

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On Friday 20 January 2006 12:11, Dale wrote:
> Neil Bothwick wrote:
> >On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:10:13 +0800, Linux Java wrote:
> >>I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.
> >
> >Why? Use whatever suits you.
> >
> >If you want to use the most popular desktop, you probably need WinXP :)
>
> Which really sucks by the way.  LOL  It's worse than Gnome.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)


hold on, theres coming soon more evil Win Vista  lol

im with KDE and XFCE and almost all Gnome as dependency for gnucash


m
-- 
Linux 2.6.15-ck2 AMD Athlon(tm) 64 Processor 3200+
 14:16:56 up 14:25,  2 users,  load average: 0.01, 0.03, 0.03

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Michael Sullivan]

On Fri, 2006-01-20 at 04:11 -0600, Dale wrote:
> Neil Bothwick wrote:
> 
> >On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:10:13 +0800, Linux Java wrote:
> >
> >  
> >
> >>I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >Why? Use whatever suits you.
> >
> >If you want to use the most popular desktop, you probably need WinXP :)
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> Which really sucks by the way.  LOL  It's worse than Gnome. 
> 
> Dale
> :-)

My wife and I use GNOME.  KDE is too Windows-like for us.  I can't stand
Windows XP.  I think it's the most annoying OS I've ever attempted to
use...

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 08:37:47 -0600, Michael Sullivan wrote:

> My wife and I use GNOME.  KDE is too Windows-like for us.

I always thought Windows was rather KDE-like in some ways, but that's
probably because I used KDE before windows.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistinguishable from a feature.

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Friday 20 January 2006 15:37, Michael Sullivan wrote:

>
> My wife and I use GNOME.  KDE is too Windows-like for us.  I can't stand
> Windows XP.  I think it's the most annoying OS I've ever attempted to
> use...

gnome is much more windows like than KDE.

With KDE you have lots and lots of options to configure the desktop to your 
liking. This is not possible with gnome (it could confuse the users, say the 
gnome devs). Something gnome has in common with windows.
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[El Nino]

AybOwan!

i'm too using KDE. it's nice... colorfull world...

On 1/21/06, Hemmann, Volker Armin <volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de> wrote:
> On Friday 20 January 2006 15:37, Michael Sullivan wrote:
>
> >
> > My wife and I use GNOME.  KDE is too Windows-like for us.  I can't stand
> > Windows XP.  I think it's the most annoying OS I've ever attempted to
> > use...
>
> gnome is much more windows like than KDE.
>
> With KDE you have lots and lots of options to configure the desktop to your
> liking. This is not possible with gnome (it could confuse the users, say the
> gnome devs). Something gnome has in common with windows.
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Holly Bostick]

Neil Bothwick schreef:
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:10:13 +0800, Linux Java wrote:
> 
>> I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.
> 
> Why? Use whatever suits you.
> 

I hope that you all appreciate my extreme restraint in not posting to
this thread until now, given how very much I dislike KDE.

But for the record, just so that all you KDE-heads don't skew the
results com*plete*ly:

I always (from my first attempts at Linux some 3 years ago) preferred
GNOME to KDE. Never liked Nautilus, though (it's tied for second on my
list of "most hated file managers"), and since I've never been fond of
desktop icons and all that cr... junk... I still found it too heavy. So I
switched to Openbox 3 (with a GTK "backend"), and now I use fvwm-crystal
(with a GTK "backend"). Gnome-light is (always) installed, but I don't
use it as a desktop.

I have only two KDE-specific applications that I would not do without
(both compiled -kde and -arts to the greatest extent possible): Krusader
(though this needs Konq and some other KDE utils for best usage, as it
recognizes KDE apps much much better than GTK apps for viewing files and
the like), and K3b. These apps require kdebase, so I've got that, but
the day you see me logging into KDE, you can rest assured that either:

1) my system is so seriously broke that it's the only DE/WM I can get
into (which is pretty unlikely. I mean, I've got iceWM and *afterstep*
on the system, for Pete's sake; the day that doesn't work but KDE does
will be... "The" day);

or

2) I have been replaced by an alien clone (shoot first, ask questions
later).

I prefer to use GTK-based applications wherever possible because I find
them more attractive in general, and I'm more used to them (as a GNOME
user originally), unless they're junk, like Totem, in which case I use
"non-affiliated" programs like Xine or mPlayer. Yes, I know Totem can be
configured to use a Xine backend. Imo, there's no point; if that's the
only way Totem works, I might as well just use Xine. Plus I want to see
when gStreamer gets its act together. However I have no objection to
QT-based apps (as opposed to KDE apps) when necessary. It does need to
be "necessary", though (meaning, if I need it, I'll install qdvdauthor,
because there's no GTK alternative that I know of, but I can just as
well use the CLI original, unless the GUI version has some additional
feature or makes it easier to understand than the CLI version's man page).

So anyway, Neil is of course right: use what you want; it's *your*
desktop (finally!). I don't need a whole lot of GUI features (in fact I
dislike a whole lot of GUI features), so KDE is not for me, the one who
never liked Windows(-like) desktops, even when I was using Windows; I
used an alternative shell from my Win98 days on. But for those who feel
more comfortable with a more Windows-like environment, and Windows-like
assumptions about what a user wants/needs from their desktop, KDE may be
just the thing; that is, after all, what it's designed to do to a great
extent.

You can have it, though. I'll be elsewhere.

Holly


-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Shawn Singh]

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My wife and I use KDE. I, mainly because I don't see the point in having
multiple GUIs (they're not that facinating to me (other than to get into the
source code), but for my wife, I find that for someone coming from using
Windows, it seems that out of the box, KDE seems to have a stronger appeal
to her than Gnome. Although, the environment she really took to was XFCE
(though it's not a choice in this discussion).

In looking at Holly's post, I'm inclined to agree. Being that most of the
stuff I do (besides surf the net), but things like programming, moving
files, your general admin stuff, configuration changes, etc I (like most of
us here --probably) do from a command-line.

My selling point for the command-line is I don't have to learn any new menus
to use it ;), but to each his own.

Shawn

On 1/20/06, Holly Bostick <motub@planet.nl> wrote:
>
> Neil Bothwick schreef:
> > On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:10:13 +0800, Linux Java wrote:
> >
> >> I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.
> >
> > Why? Use whatever suits you.
> >
>
> I hope that you all appreciate my extreme restraint in not posting to
> this thread until now, given how very much I dislike KDE.
>
> But for the record, just so that all you KDE-heads don't skew the
> results com*plete*ly:
>
> I always (from my first attempts at Linux some 3 years ago) preferred
> GNOME to KDE. Never liked Nautilus, though (it's tied for second on my
> list of "most hated file managers"), and since I've never been fond of
> desktop icons and all that cr... junk... I still found it too heavy. So I
> switched to Openbox 3 (with a GTK "backend"), and now I use fvwm-crystal
> (with a GTK "backend"). Gnome-light is (always) installed, but I don't
> use it as a desktop.
>
> I have only two KDE-specific applications that I would not do without
> (both compiled -kde and -arts to the greatest extent possible): Krusader
> (though this needs Konq and some other KDE utils for best usage, as it
> recognizes KDE apps much much better than GTK apps for viewing files and
> the like), and K3b. These apps require kdebase, so I've got that, but
> the day you see me logging into KDE, you can rest assured that either:
>
> 1) my system is so seriously broke that it's the only DE/WM I can get
> into (which is pretty unlikely. I mean, I've got iceWM and *afterstep*
> on the system, for Pete's sake; the day that doesn't work but KDE does
> will be... "The" day);
>
> or
>
> 2) I have been replaced by an alien clone (shoot first, ask questions
> later).
>
> I prefer to use GTK-based applications wherever possible because I find
> them more attractive in general, and I'm more used to them (as a GNOME
> user originally), unless they're junk, like Totem, in which case I use
> "non-affiliated" programs like Xine or mPlayer. Yes, I know Totem can be
> configured to use a Xine backend. Imo, there's no point; if that's the
> only way Totem works, I might as well just use Xine. Plus I want to see
> when gStreamer gets its act together. However I have no objection to
> QT-based apps (as opposed to KDE apps) when necessary. It does need to
> be "necessary", though (meaning, if I need it, I'll install qdvdauthor,
> because there's no GTK alternative that I know of, but I can just as
> well use the CLI original, unless the GUI version has some additional
> feature or makes it easier to understand than the CLI version's man page).
>
> So anyway, Neil is of course right: use what you want; it's *your*
> desktop (finally!). I don't need a whole lot of GUI features (in fact I
> dislike a whole lot of GUI features), so KDE is not for me, the one who
> never liked Windows(-like) desktops, even when I was using Windows; I
> used an alternative shell from my Win98 days on. But for those who feel
> more comfortable with a more Windows-like environment, and Windows-like
> assumptions about what a user wants/needs from their desktop, KDE may be
> just the thing; that is, after all, what it's designed to do to a great
> extent.
>
> You can have it, though. I'll be elsewhere.
>
> Holly
>
>
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


--
Shawn Singh

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Abhay Kedia]

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On Friday 20 January 2006 19:59, Holly Bostick wrote:
> more comfortable with a more Windows-like environment, and Windows-like
> assumptions about what a user wants/needs from their desktop, KDE may be
> just the thing; that is, after all, what it's designed to do to a great
> extent.
That statement is extremely unfair to KDE. Every DE needs to make at least 
some assumptions to present a working environment for the user and KDE is not 
alone in doing that. The quality comes in when the DE not only makes some 
choices for you but also gives you an easy access to editing/changing those 
features. As far as I can see, you can edit every choice that KDE has made 
for you with minimal fuss. If that is being Windows-like, then you can not be 
more wrong.

-- 
Regards,
Abhay

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Holly Bostick]

Abhay Kedia schreef:
> On Friday 20 January 2006 19:59, Holly Bostick wrote:
>> more comfortable with a more Windows-like environment, and 
>> Windows-like assumptions about what a user wants/needs from their 
>> desktop, KDE may be just the thing; that is, after all, what it's 
>> designed to do to a great extent.
> That statement is extremely unfair to KDE. Every DE needs to make at 
> least some assumptions to present a working environment for the user
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
That may be true, but it assumes that I want a "Desktop Environment" in
the first place, which I don't, particularly.

As I said, after finding even GNOME too heavy, I switched to Openbox 3,
which basically presents *no* working environment, and now use
fvwm-crystal, which presents a relatively minimal one, certainly by
comparison to KDE.

You may see it as "unfair" (like I care; KDE has no feelings, and I was
actually being positive about it, given that I don't much like DEs in
general and KDE in particular), but the very concept of a Desktop
Environment is very similar to the Windows design of the OS being
indistinguishable from the GUI (or rather the OS functions being as
concealable within the GUI as possible), so I'm not quite sure why that's
so terrible to say.

> and KDE is not alone in doing that. The quality comes in when the DE 
> not only makes some choices for you but also gives you an easy access
> to editing/changing those features. As far as I can see, you can edit
> every choice that KDE has made for you with minimal fuss.

I myself don't see it as "minimal fuss", not least because KDE makes so
many choices for me in its "feature richness" that I have to spend two
hours (I'm being kind) finding all the bloody options that I don't want
and change them or turn them off or whatever. And of course this has its
limits; suppose I don't *want* my file manager integrated with my
browser (didn't want it in Windows, don't want it now).  I don't *want*
to figure out how to tell KMix not to override my Alsa mixer settings,
and I don't want to have to decide whether I want drive icons but not
application icons (or no icons at all) on my desktop, and then tell KDE
my decision. I don't want to name my desktops, or put a separate
wallpaper on each one. I have no interest in going through 6 tabs to
specify Window Behaviour (I'm looking at the KDE Control Center right
now). And I certainly don't care to be bothered with the problem of how
to make KDE play nice with my GTK apps (I do have some GTK 1 apps, which
are much more problematic than GTK 2 apps in this respect) simply
because I might happen to want to use some program whose name doesn't
bloody start with "K".

You can say that I don't "have to" do any of this, or change any of the
settings, but if I don't, then I'm stuck with KDE's sane defaults, and
in that case then all these settings that I *could* change (but don't
bother to) become "bloat" -- features I don't need, since
I'm not going to use them. If I don't like KDE's default choices, then
I have to fix them, within the parameters that KDE allows me, which is
no longer "minimal fuss". Certainly not minimal fuss when I want to use
non "k" apps for certain functions that KDE would "prefer" that I use
their provided applications for... I have several K-apps installed that
I actually don't want, because the K-app I do use (Krusader) won't open
files from within an archive using GTK apps like eye of gnome or Open
Office. karc can't pass the file to these apps.... but it works fine
with KView or KWord. Because K apps like other K apps. That makes
perfect sense, since it's all supposed to be an integrated environment,
but to me it feels like a prison.

> If that is being Windows-like, then you can not be more wrong.

Insofar as Windows doesn't allow you to "customize" as much as KDE does,
you're right. But in the idea that you give the user everything up to
and including the kitchen sink by default unless the user themselves
whittles the list down (within limits), then no, I'm not all that wrong.

But I simply don't like DEs. If I'm going to spend time fine-tuning my
desktop, I want exactly what I want, exactly the way I like it, not "as
close to how I like it as the DE supports". That's why I use
"build-it-yourself" WMs like OB3 and FVWM.

Each to his own taste, and if your taste is KDE, then more power to you.
I accept that it's very good for what it is. I just don't happen to like
what it is.

Holly
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[b.n.]

> I myself don't see it as "minimal fuss", not least because KDE makes so
> many choices for me in its "feature richness" that I have to spend two
> hours (I'm being kind) finding all the bloody options that I don't want
> and change them or turn them off or whatever. 

Sorry, I simply can't understand what are you talking about:

>  suppose I don't *want* my file manager integrated with my
> browser (didn't want it in Windows, don't want it now).  

Where's the problem? I use Firefox as a browser and Konqueror as a file 
manager.

> I don't *want*
> to figure out how to tell KMix not to override my Alsa mixer settings,

Disable it. Do not install it.

> and I don't want to have to decide whether I want drive icons but not
> application icons (or no icons at all) on my desktop, and then tell KDE
> my decision. 

I can't even understand what do you mean here. If you don't want icons, 
don't put them on the desktop. It's that simple. You have to do 
*nothing* to avoid icons on your desktop!

> I don't want to name my desktops, or put a separate
> wallpaper on each one. 

Nor I want, nor KDE ever forced me to do it.

> I have no interest in going through 6 tabs to
> specify Window Behaviour (I'm looking at the KDE Control Center right
> now). 

Ok, that's a good point. However that 6 tabs are more probably than not 
a wrapper to a plain text config file, that you can configure with your 
favourite editor all at once.

> And I certainly don't care to be bothered with the problem of how
> to make KDE play nice with my GTK apps (I do have some GTK 1 apps, which
> are much more problematic than GTK 2 apps in this respect) simply
> because I might happen to want to use some program whose name doesn't
> bloody start with "K".

What do you mean by "play nice"? I use a lot of GTK apps (both 1 and 2) 
and they work perfectly fine here without any fuss.

> I have several K-apps installed that
> I actually don't want, because the K-app I do use (Krusader) won't open
> files from within an archive using GTK apps like eye of gnome or Open
> Office. karc can't pass the file to these apps.... but it works fine
> with KView or KWord. Because K apps like other K apps. That makes
> perfect sense, since it's all supposed to be an integrated environment,
> but to me it feels like a prison.

I understand what you mean here, that's something that I hate too. It's 
because other apps don't understand kioslaves.
I think kioslaves are the best thing after sliced bread. Typing simply 
"smb:/" to access a Samba share, or "ftp:/" for accessing transparently 
FTP filesystems, or "zip:/" for what's in a compressed archive is 
wonderful. I think other apps should work on compatibility about this. 
It's simply a good idea.

> But I simply don't like DEs. If I'm going to spend time fine-tuning my
> desktop, I want exactly what I want, exactly the way I like it, not "as
> close to how I like it as the DE supports". That's why I use
> "build-it-yourself" WMs like OB3 and FVWM.

I can't see why a WM can be more "exactly what you want" than a DE.

> Each to his own taste, and if your taste is KDE, then more power to you.
> I accept that it's very good for what it is. I just don't happen to like
> what it is.

Oh, this is clear :)

m.
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Holly Bostick]

b.n. schreef:
>> I myself don't see it as "minimal fuss", not least because KDE 
>> makes so many choices for me in its "feature richness" that I have 
>> to spend two hours (I'm being kind) finding all the bloody options 
>> that I don't want and change them or turn them off or whatever.
> 
> Sorry, I simply can't understand what are you talking about:
> 
>> suppose I don't *want* my file manager integrated with my browser 
>> (didn't want it in Windows, don't want it now).
> 
> Where's the problem? I use Firefox as a browser and Konqueror as a 
> file manager.

Yes, but you then have bloat (because Konqueror contains web browsing
features that you are not using, therefore the code is unnecessary for
you, but nonetheless present).

> 
>> I don't *want* to figure out how to tell KMix not to override my 
>> Alsa mixer settings,
> 
> Disable it. Do not install it.

I have to then spend time finding out how to disable it or avoid
installing it.

> 
>> and I don't want to have to decide whether I want drive icons but 
>> not application icons (or no icons at all) on my desktop, and then 
>> tell KDE my decision.
> 
> I can't even understand what do you mean here. If you don't want 
> icons, don't put them on the desktop. It's that simple. You have to 
> do *nothing* to avoid icons on your desktop!

The (presumably) default setting (since I've never touched it, and it is
checked in kcontrol) is "Show icons on desktop". There are then two
additional tabs for kinds of icons that you can enable or disable (for
file types and drives). Fine, I can turn them off, but again, there is
then a whole lot of backend code for a feature that I do not want in the
first place and know I don't want.

> 
>> I don't want to name my desktops, or put a separate wallpaper on 
>> each one.
> 
> Nor I want, nor KDE ever forced me to do it.


Code, code, code. Bloat (for me).

> 
>> I have no interest in going through 6 tabs to specify Window 
>> Behaviour (I'm looking at the KDE Control Center right now).
> 
> Ok, that's a good point. However that 6 tabs are more probably than 
> not a wrapper to a plain text config file, that you can configure 
> with your favourite editor all at once.

Code for a gui function that I'm not using if I'm just editing the base
text file anyway.

> 
>> And I certainly don't care to be bothered with the problem of how 
>> to make KDE play nice with my GTK apps (I do have some GTK 1 apps, 
>> which are much more problematic than GTK 2 apps in this respect) 
>> simply because I might happen to want to use some program whose 
>> name doesn't bloody start with "K".
> 
> What do you mean by "play nice"? I use a lot of GTK apps (both 1 and 
> 2) and they work perfectly fine here without any fuss.

Yes they work fine, but they look like poop unless you jump through some
hoops to "integrate" them with the look of your KDE desktop. This may
involve installing additional applications (gtk-chtheme or
gtk-engine-qt), or editing a text file (if you need to "fix" GTK 1
programs, which are generally not affected by the "theme consolidation"
programs, which generally assume you're working with GTK2). Since one of
KDE's big selling points is an integrated look-n-feel, "outside" apps
that break the loveliness of the KDE desktop are very noticeable.

> 
>> I have several K-apps installed that I actually don't want, because
>>  the K-app I do use (Krusader) won't open files from within an 
>> archive using GTK apps like eye of gnome or Open Office. karc can't
>>  pass the file to these apps.... but it works fine with KView or 
>> KWord. Because K apps like other K apps. That makes perfect sense, 
>> since it's all supposed to be an integrated environment, but to me 
>> it feels like a prison.
> 
> I understand what you mean here, that's something that I hate too. 
> It's because other apps don't understand kioslaves. I think kioslaves
>  are the best thing after sliced bread. Typing simply "smb:/" to 
> access a Samba share, or "ftp:/" for accessing transparently FTP 
> filesystems, or "zip:/" for what's in a compressed archive is 
> wonderful. I think other apps should work on compatibility about 
> this. It's simply a good idea.

I don't even type things like that, I bookmark locations in my file
manager (admittedly, Krusader, if installed with konqueror support--
which means I have to install Konq, though I don't use Konq-- does
recognize kioslaves, so I can bookmark folders in media:/ or smb:/ ) and
just go where I intend to go. without further ado. But I can bookmark
locations (even Samba shares and HAL mounts) in most file managers I
have available (Nautilus, Krusader, TuxCommander, emelFM2)

> 
>> But I simply don't like DEs. If I'm going to spend time fine-tuning
>>  my desktop, I want exactly what I want, exactly the way I like it,
>>  not "as close to how I like it as the DE supports". That's why I 
>> use "build-it-yourself" WMs like OB3 and FVWM.
> 
> I can't see why a WM can be more "exactly what you want" than a DE.

I want to use the programs that I like, without worrying about whether
they are "compatible" with my DE. I don't want to be "forced" to install
or use a program I don't particularly like because it is compatible with
my DE. With a WM, I don't have to have every installed program on my
menu; I have only the programs I use regularly, organized in a manner
that makes sense to me, and a run box for those times I may need one of
the others. I don't have to have Kicker, or any kind of taskbar, or I
can have the system tray in one corner, and the taskbar in another. and
a wharf/dock down the side, or whatever works for me, from the ground up.

The idea being I start with less and add what I actually want, rather
than start with more, remove what I don't want, and hope that the result
is OK. I suppose some people work better backwards (removing excess
rather than adding to a minimal start), but I don't.

> 
>> Each to his own taste, and if your taste is KDE, then more power to
>>  you. I accept that it's very good for what it is. I just don't 
>> happen to like what it is.
> 
> Oh, this is clear :)

:-) . I don't want to fight about it, since I have no interest in what
desktops everybody else wants to use, and no percentage in anyone using
"my" desktop GUI over any other. Just wanted to make my point clear.

Holly.
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[b.n.]

I'm just writing it for the sake of curiosity, so no flaming is here. 
Just because some answer sound quite "sarcastic", but that's just a 
style thing to get it short. :)

> Yes, but you then have bloat (because Konqueror contains web browsing
> features that you are not using, therefore the code is unnecessary for
> you, but nonetheless present).
[...]
 > Code, code, code. Bloat (for me).
[...]
 > Fine, I can turn them off, but again, there is
 > then a whole lot of backend code for a feature that I do not want in the
 > first place and know I don't want.

Ehm. Perhaps it's me being dense but: who cares about unused code? Ok, 
you have unnecessary, unused code sitting on your HD: where's the 
problem? You never see it.

> I have to then spend time finding out how to disable it or avoid
> installing it.

It's quite odd you obviously had spent the (worthwile but not 
instantaneous) time to learn Linux, install Gentoo etc. but then you 
can't type "emerge --unmerge kmix".

>>I can't even understand what do you mean here. If you don't want 
>>icons, don't put them on the desktop. It's that simple. You have to 
>>do *nothing* to avoid icons on your desktop!
> 
> The (presumably) default setting (since I've never touched it, and it is
> checked in kcontrol) is "Show icons on desktop". There are then two
> additional tabs for kinds of icons that you can enable or disable (for
> file types and drives). 

But if you don't actively link things on the desktop, *nothing* appears 
on your desktop!!

>>>I have no interest in going through 6 tabs to specify Window 
>>>Behaviour (I'm looking at the KDE Control Center right now).
>>
>>Ok, that's a good point. However that 6 tabs are more probably than 
>>not a wrapper to a plain text config file, that you can configure 
>>with your favourite editor all at once.
> 
> Code for a gui function that I'm not using if I'm just editing the base
> text file anyway.

?

> Yes they work fine, but they look like poop unless you jump through some
> hoops to "integrate" them with the look of your KDE desktop. This may
> involve installing additional applications (gtk-chtheme or
> gtk-engine-qt), or editing a text file (if you need to "fix" GTK 1
> programs, which are generally not affected by the "theme consolidation"
> programs, which generally assume you're working with GTK2). Since one of
> KDE's big selling points is an integrated look-n-feel, "outside" apps
> that break the loveliness of the KDE desktop are very noticeable.

This is one of the things I really have never understood.
1)On a, let's say, fvwm or fluxbox desktop (the one I actually use at 
home, I am a KDE user at work), no app is integrated with nothing. So 
the situation should be worse.
2)GTK apps look different from KDE apps. So what? gmplayer or xpdf 
aren't similar to both. What's so bad in them being different?

> I don't even type things like that, I bookmark locations in my file
> manager (admittedly, Krusader, if installed with konqueror support--
> which means I have to install Konq, though I don't use Konq-- does
> recognize kioslaves, so I can bookmark folders in media:/ or smb:/ ) and
> just go where I intend to go. without further ado. But I can bookmark
> locations (even Samba shares and HAL mounts) in most file managers I
> have available (Nautilus, Krusader, TuxCommander, emelFM2)

Hmm. So you mean, for example, you can bookmark a location that shows 
you all SMB-connected PCs on your local network? How do you do this? 
Even for not-smbmounted shares?

Anyway (apart from the code thing, where I am very curious) I understand 
your philosophy.
Thanks,

m.
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Holly Bostick]

b.n. schreef:
> I'm just writing it for the sake of curiosity, so no flaming is here.
>  Just because some answer sound quite "sarcastic", but that's just a 
> style thing to get it short. :)
> 
>> Yes, but you then have bloat (because Konqueror contains web 
>> browsing features that you are not using, therefore the code is 
>> unnecessary for you, but nonetheless present).
> [...]
>> Code, code, code. Bloat (for me).
> [...]
>> Fine, I can turn them off, but again, there is then a whole lot of
>>  backend code for a feature that I do not want in the first place 
>> and know I don't want.
> 
> Ehm. Perhaps it's me being dense but: who cares about unused code? 
> Ok, you have unnecessary, unused code sitting on your HD: where's the
>  problem? You never see it.

If I wanted unused and unneccessary code sitting on my PC, I'd use a
binary distribution. Why do I bother with disabling USE flags to not
compile code that is unnecessary for me, if I didn't care about such
things? On the rare occasions that I compile Mozilla (becoming less and
less necessary, thank goodness), I compile it +moznomail, +mozcompose,
+moznoirc, and -mozcalendar because I don't use those features in
Mozilla, so why should I wait for them to be compiled? But I can't trim
Konq down to be just a file manager (or browser, depending on which
function I hypothetically like Konq to perform and which I prefer to use
another application to perform).

And of course, maybe I don't have so much HDD space that I want some
portion of it to be used by applications that have extra functions that
are unused, when that space could be used by applications that do things
I *do* want.

> 
>> I have to then spend time finding out how to disable it or avoid 
>> installing it.
> 
> It's quite odd you obviously had spent the (worthwile but not 
> instantaneous) time to learn Linux, install Gentoo etc. but then you 
> can't type "emerge --unmerge kmix".

Well I would if I liked KDE (and on the occasions that I have installed
KDE, I've done that), but I've already objected to this idea that it's
OK to install a whole complex and then have to go through it again with
a fine-toothed comb to "edit it down" to something manageable. Fine if
you don't mind working that way, but I do.
> 
>>> I can't even understand what do you mean here. If you don't want 
>>> icons, don't put them on the desktop. It's that simple. You have 
>>> to do *nothing* to avoid icons on your desktop!
>> 
>> The (presumably) default setting (since I've never touched it, and
>>  it is checked in kcontrol) is "Show icons on desktop". There are 
>> then two additional tabs for kinds of icons that you can enable or
>>  disable (for file types and drives).
> 
> But if you don't actively link things on the desktop, *nothing* 
> appears on your desktop!!

That's not the point, which is where we have a failure to communicate.
Openbox and FVWM-crystal (and ICEwm, for that matter) are lighter,
faster desktops than KDE partially because they do not contain the code
to put icons on the desktop (whether I enable it in KDE or not). If I
suddenly change my mind and want icons on my desktop, I have to install
idesk or something. That's the way (unh-huh, unh-huh) I *like* it. If I
want an application to perform a function that I want or need, then I
install it. If I don't want or need the functionality, it *is not present*.
> 
>>>> I have no interest in going through 6 tabs to specify Window 
>>>> Behaviour (I'm looking at the KDE Control Center right now).
>>> 
>>> Ok, that's a good point. However that 6 tabs are more probably 
>>> than not a wrapper to a plain text config file, that you can 
>>> configure with your favourite editor all at once.
>> 
>> Code for a gui function that I'm not using if I'm just editing the
>>  base text file anyway.
> 
> ?

Same as before. If I'm going to be editing the text file, all I need is
nano (which I already have). So the code to create, manipulate and draw
those tabs and their functions in the KDE control center is unnecessary.
But developers have spent time to write it, and debug it, testers have
spent time testing it, and I've spent time compiling it... and they've
all wasted that time with respect to me, because I'm not using it, I'm
just editing the text file in nano (which I already had). So for all of
me, they could have done something else with that time (like make the
code modular, so if I didn't want it, I could disable it with a USE flag
or something, or of course, not include it at all, since I find
Devilspie works just fine to control my windows if I need to do that for
some reason, or just tell me where the text file is and how to edit it,
like the FVWM man pages do, so I use the internal settings to control my
windows if I want, but don't have a whole GUI that I find unnecessary to
do so).

> 
>> Yes they work fine, but they look like poop unless you jump through
>>  some hoops to "integrate" them with the look of your KDE desktop.
>>  This may involve installing additional applications (gtk-chtheme
>> or gtk-engine-qt), or editing a text file (if you need to "fix" GTK
>> 1 programs, which are generally not affected by the "theme 
>> consolidation" programs, which generally assume you're working with
>>  GTK2). Since one of KDE's big selling points is an integrated 
>> look-n-feel, "outside" apps that break the loveliness of the KDE 
>> desktop are very noticeable.
> 
> This is one of the things I really have never understood. 1)On a, 
> let's say, fvwm or fluxbox desktop (the one I actually use at home, I
>  am a KDE user at work), no app is integrated with nothing. So the 
> situation should be worse.

In some respects, it is (since there is no base consistency between
applications demanded by the desktop in the first place). But because
flux and fvwm don't have a whole "environment" to be consistent *to*, in
some respects it's less noticeable, unlike running "nautilus --no
desktop" under KDE, where its going to be very obvious that Nautilus
looks and works much different from your KDE desktop and other KDE apps
you might have open at the time.

> 2)GTK apps look different from KDE apps. So what? gmplayer or xpdf 
> aren't similar to both. What's so bad in them being different?

A lot of people care about this, both users and developers; It's a
little issue known as User Interface Consistency, which people seem to
find very important for new and/or inexperienced users (for experienced
users it's more of an ongoing annoyance than a show-stopper, I think).
Certainly programs exist to resolve that, both KDE and GNOME developers
spend time migrating to the freedesktop.org standard to resolve that and
users ask questions on this and other forums asking how to resolve at
least the presenting visual issues.

Myself, I generally try to solve the issue by sticking to one toolset,
but that is not always possible. And it is annoying... if I use
Krusader, and want to show hidden files in my home folder, the command
or menu item to do that is in a different place than where it is in
Nautilus or another GTK-toolset file manager or file browser for
open/save dialogs. That means I have to *stop what I'm actually doing*
(viewing my files) and think about which fm I'm using and remember that
this one does it this way (as opposed to the one I usually use) and then
go back to what I'm doing. It interrupts the seamless flow of your task,
and people object to that to a greater or lesser degree, depending on
how much interruption they can support before the task becomes
unperformable, or more difficult to perform than the task is worth.
> 
>> I don't even type things like that, I bookmark locations in my file
>>  manager (admittedly, Krusader, if installed with konqueror 
>> support-- which means I have to install Konq, though I don't use 
>> Konq-- does recognize kioslaves, so I can bookmark folders in 
>> media:/ or smb:/ ) and just go where I intend to go. without 
>> further ado. But I can bookmark locations (even Samba shares and 
>> HAL mounts) in most file managers I have available (Nautilus, 
>> Krusader, TuxCommander, emelFM2)
> 
> Hmm. So you mean, for example, you can bookmark a location that shows
>  you all SMB-connected PCs on your local network? How do you do this?
>  Even for not-smbmounted shares?


I am not a network admin with 500 PCs under my purview, nor am I an
office worker sharing contacts or sensitive data with a team of
co-workers who may often move or change. I am a home user with one
Windows PC in my network-- my boyfriend's, whose desk is right behind
mine. So I know exactly what is shared, I know what the hostname of the
sharing PC is, and the shares are defined to places I might need to go
to drop him a  file I downloaded, rather than his entire PC. So I can of
course bookmark these locations on my network because I'm not guessing
where I'm going; I'm going to "Jord's desktop", or "Jord's music folder"
or wherever.

Certainly others in different situations have other needs, but a
standard "family network" is not such a weird and outré thing that it
should suprise you that the filemanagers for the two big "average user"
DEs have internal support for the type of users that might do things
like bookmark locations in a file manager (I suspect a network admin is
less likely to operate that way than someone like me is). Both Nautilus
and Krusader support remembering what computers are in my workgroup and
connnecting me to their mounted shares, but they do this in different ways.

> 
> Anyway (apart from the code thing, where I am very curious) I 
> understand your philosophy. Thanks,
> 
> m.

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[b.n.]

> If I wanted unused and unneccessary code sitting on my PC, I'd use a
> binary distribution. Why do I bother with disabling USE flags to not
> compile code that is unnecessary for me, if I didn't care about such
> things? On the rare occasions that I compile Mozilla (becoming less and
> less necessary, thank goodness), I compile it +moznomail, +mozcompose,
> +moznoirc, and -mozcalendar because I don't use those features in
> Mozilla, so why should I wait for them to be compiled? But I can't trim
> Konq down to be just a file manager (or browser, depending on which
> function I hypothetically like Konq to perform and which I prefer to use
> another application to perform).

Ok, good point.

> And of course, maybe I don't have so much HDD space that I want some
> portion of it to be used by applications that have extra functions that
> are unused, when that space could be used by applications that do things
> I *do* want.

Good point #2.

> That's not the point, which is where we have a failure to communicate.
> Openbox and FVWM-crystal (and ICEwm, for that matter) are lighter,
> faster desktops than KDE partially because they do not contain the code
> to put icons on the desktop (whether I enable it in KDE or not). If I
> suddenly change my mind and want icons on my desktop, I have to install
> idesk or something. That's the way (unh-huh, unh-huh) I *like* it. If I
> want an application to perform a function that I want or need, then I
> install it. If I don't want or need the functionality, it *is not present*.

Ok, so -let me know if I understand- you strive for an approach of full 
modularity, where each little component can be added or removed at will.
That's actually interesting. I don't know if KDE for example already 
allows this (emerging kdebase only gives you almost no functionality 
AFAIK) or if it's going forward this.

>>2)GTK apps look different from KDE apps. So what? gmplayer or xpdf 
>>aren't similar to both. What's so bad in them being different?
> 
> A lot of people care about this, both users and developers; It's a
> little issue known as User Interface Consistency, which people seem to
> find very important for new and/or inexperienced users (for experienced
> users it's more of an ongoing annoyance than a show-stopper, I think).
> Certainly programs exist to resolve that, both KDE and GNOME developers
> spend time migrating to the freedesktop.org standard to resolve that and
> users ask questions on this and other forums asking how to resolve at
> least the presenting visual issues.

Yes,I know. I know a consistent desktop experience would (perhaps) be 
better, I just don't find it annoying.

> It interrupts the seamless flow of your task,
> and people object to that to a greater or lesser degree, depending on
> how much interruption they can support before the task becomes
> unperformable, or more difficult to perform than the task is worth.

Hmmm. Not for me. I just know how to use the GTK/Gnome file save dialog, 
and the KDE save dialog. I seamlessly use both (although I much prefer 
the latter). I don't feel my tasks to be interrupted by this. Perhaps 
that's just my luck :).

m.
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Uwe Thiem]

On 21 January 2006 16:50, Holly Bostick wrote:

> That's not the point, which is where we have a failure to communicate.
> Openbox and FVWM-crystal (and ICEwm, for that matter) are lighter,
> faster desktops than KDE partially because they do not contain the code
> to put icons on the desktop (whether I enable it in KDE or not). 

Unused code does *not* slow down an application. It's just, well, ... 
unused. ;-)

> If I 
> suddenly change my mind and want icons on my desktop, I have to install
> idesk or something. That's the way (unh-huh, unh-huh) I *like* it. If I
> want an application to perform a function that I want or need, then I
> install it. If I don't want or need the functionality, it *is not present*.

Frankly, I don't believe you. Some other part in your post indicates you use 
nano as an editor. Are you seriously claiming you have *ever* used all 
features (all the code) of nano? How about "-p"? Or "-l"? Is the 
corresponding code excluded from your nano?

How about all the features (all the code) of cp? How about "-l", "--parents" 
and "-x", ever used them? If not so, is the corresponding code excluded from 
your cp? I won't even start to talk about tar of bash.

I see that you use Thunderbird as your MTU. Does it support authenticating to 
the MTA when sending mail? Do you use that? Does it suport both POP3 and 
IMAP? Do you use both? Is the unused code excluded from your Thunderbird?

Almost no user will use all code in any non-trivial application (and yes, cp 
is non-trivial). What are developers to do about it? Make cp modular so that 
a user can decide at compile time what features they will use five month from 
now? Even a very small text-only linux installation contains a couple of 
hundred executables. You got to be kidding!

[ snip ]

> A lot of people care about this, both users and developers; It's a
> little issue known as User Interface Consistency, which people seem to
> find very important for new and/or inexperienced users (for experienced
> users it's more of an ongoing annoyance than a show-stopper, I think).
> Certainly programs exist to resolve that, both KDE and GNOME developers
> spend time migrating to the freedesktop.org standard to resolve that and
> users ask questions on this and other forums asking how to resolve at
> least the presenting visual issues.
>
> Myself, I generally try to solve the issue by sticking to one toolset,
> but that is not always possible. And it is annoying... if I use
> Krusader, and want to show hidden files in my home folder, the command
> or menu item to do that is in a different place than where it is in
> Nautilus or another GTK-toolset file manager or file browser for
> open/save dialogs. That means I have to *stop what I'm actually doing*
> (viewing my files) and think about which fm I'm using and remember that
> this one does it this way (as opposed to the one I usually use) and then
> go back to what I'm doing. It interrupts the seamless flow of your task,
> and people object to that to a greater or lesser degree, depending on
> how much interruption they can support before the task becomes
> unperformable, or more difficult to perform than the task is worth.

These two paragraphs, of course, are very good, though not all, arguments 
*for* DEs. As a computer user (and software developer), I go back to the 
famous ZX-81 when it was new. (Those who do not know it google for it!) 
Nonetheless, consistent menus, dialogues, ... speed me up in using 
applications - especially apps I don't use that often. I do admit that KDE 
hasn't reached that goal completely yet. For example, some applications show 
"Configure This-app" as the first entry under "Settings", others as the last 
one. I am pretty sure similar examples can be found in the GNOME world. 
Still, both DEs are far better in this regard than any wild mix of xpdf, 
xterm, OpenOffice, GIMP, xmms and 700 other UIs.

Uwe

-- 
Unix is sexy:
who | grep -i blonde | date
cd ~; unzip; touch; strip; finger
mount; gasp; yes; uptime; umount
sleep
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Uwe Thiem]

On 21 January 2006 16:50, Holly Bostick wrote:
> So for all of
> me, they could have done something else with that time (like make the
> code modular, so if I didn't want it, I could disable it with a USE flag
> or something, 

Forgot this in my other mail:
When I looked last time, konqueror contained not one single line of code for 
rendering HTML, jpeg, gif, text or anything else. It uses other applications 
for that. Pretty modular and slick, huh?

Uwe

-- 
Unix is sexy:
who | grep -i blonde | date
cd ~; unzip; touch; strip; finger
mount; gasp; yes; uptime; umount
sleep
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

Hi,

I have only one question:

how do you deal with the data-eating bugs, nautilus is known for?
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Walter Dnes]

On Sat, Jan 21, 2006 at 04:48:24AM +0000, b.n. wrote

> Ehm. Perhaps it's me being dense but: who cares about unused code? Ok,
> you have unnecessary, unused code sitting on your HD: where's the
> problem? You never see it.

  A year ago, I was using a 1999 Dell (128 megs RAM, 450 mhz PIII) as my
main machine.  I still have it around as my emergency backup.  KDE
"runs" (would you believe crawls) painfully slowly on that machine.
Using blackbox plus fbpanel, it's perfectly OK for most stuff, except
that it drops frames on "internet TV" and working with 2560x1920 digital
photos in Gimp is "leisurely".  On my AMDK8, in 32-bit mode, it screams.


  Old DOS games run faster under DOSBOX than they did on a 10 mhz AT.  I
have the original floppies for Chessmaster 3000.  It does *NOT* run
under Wine.  At work, they were throwing out some old stuff, including
real Windows 3.1 floppies.  I installed Win3.2 under DOSBOX, and it runs
Chessmaster 3000 just fine!

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> In linux /sbin/init is Job #1
My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Paul S. Bains]

You are not being dense - unused code does nothing but take up disc  
space.

On 01/21/06 19:34:02, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 21, 2006 at 04:48:24AM +0000, b.n. wrote
> 
> > Ehm. Perhaps it's me being dense but: who cares about unused code?
> Ok,
> > you have unnecessary, unused code sitting on your HD: where's the
> > problem? You never see it.
> 
>   A year ago, I was using a 1999 Dell (128 megs RAM, 450 mhz PIII) as
> my
> main machine.  I still have it around as my emergency backup.  KDE
> "runs" (would you believe crawls) painfully slowly on that machine.
> Using blackbox plus fbpanel, it's perfectly OK for most stuff, except
> that it drops frames on "internet TV" and working with 2560x1920
> digital
> photos in Gimp is "leisurely".  On my AMDK8, in 32-bit mode, it
> screams.
> 
> 
>   Old DOS games run faster under DOSBOX than they did on a 10 mhz AT.
> I
> have the original floppies for Chessmaster 3000.  It does *NOT* run
> under Wine.  At work, they were throwing out some old stuff, including
> real Windows 3.1 floppies.  I installed Win3.2 under DOSBOX, and it
> runs
> Chessmaster 3000 just fine!
> 
> --
> Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> In linux /sbin/init is Job #1
> My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
> 

-- 
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary,
and those who don't.

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Kristian Poul Herkild]

Paul S. Bains wrote:
> You are not being dense - unused code does nothing but take up disc  space.

Well, the code _can_ be loaded, without being executed, and therefore 
taking up RAM.

-Kristian Poul Herkild
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Paul S. Bains]

Uncompiled code is not loaded into ram because it is only text. The  
exception is when you are editing it..! Unless I've been compiling all  
these years for no reason...:) Code must actually be compiled into a  
binary and called in one way or another to be loaded into ram.

If you mean compiled, unused code can be loaded into ram, that is  
correct, but there is nothing the user can do about that - it's a  
function of the application: not all compiled code gets ran at a given  
time, because perhaps not all functions are being utilized at any given  
moment - depends on the program.

On 01/22/06 03:47:12, Kristian Poul Herkild wrote:
> Paul S. Bains wrote:
>> You are not being dense - unused code does nothing but take up disc   
>> space.
> 
> Well, the code _can_ be loaded, without being executed, and therefore  
> taking up RAM.
> 
> -Kristian Poul Herkild
>-- 
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
-- 
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary,
and those who don't.

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Mark Knecht]

On 1/22/06, Paul S. Bains <gentoo@satx.rr.com> wrote:
> Uncompiled code is not loaded into ram because it is only text. The
> exception is when you are editing it..! Unless I've been compiling all
> these years for no reason...:) Code must actually be compiled into a
> binary and called in one way or another to be loaded into ram.
>
> If you mean compiled, unused code can be loaded into ram, that is
> correct, but there is nothing the user can do about that - it's a
> function of the application: not all compiled code gets ran at a given
> time, because perhaps not all functions are being utilized at any given
> moment - depends on the program.
>
> On 01/22/06 03:47:12, Kristian Poul Herkild wrote:
> > Paul S. Bains wrote:
> >> You are not being dense - unused code does nothing but take up disc
> >> space.
> >
> > Well, the code _can_ be loaded, without being executed, and therefore
> > taking up RAM.
> >
> > -Kristian Poul Herkild

In the time this thread has been going I managed to compile and start
KDE for the first time in years. (I'm a Gnome user mostly) My
impressions:

1) It seems HUGE. Menus full of so many apps....

2) It appears to be very configurable.

3) It seemed to run nicely in most cases.

4) It crashed X on my P4HT machine when exiting. Gnome was running ina
first login. I started a new session from xscreensaver's New Login
button and chose KDE. When exiting KDE I couldn't get back to
xscreensaver or a console. Logging in remotely and restarting xdm
didn't help. I had to do a complete shutdown -h now.

5) I have not tried it with Jack to see if it would hurt my audio
work, but it might be OK for my wife and son on a day to day basis.
Unfortunately I wouldn't know the answers to their configuration
questions and it might be more trouble than it's worth. (To me...)

Not sure I have the stomach to keep something this large up to date. I
couldn't find kde-light, as I'm a Gnome-light user mostly.

Cheers,
Mark

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 06:57:17 -0800, Mark Knecht wrote:

> Not sure I have the stomach to keep something this large up to date.

emerge -uavDN world

Keeping KDE up to date is no more or less effort than keeping GNOME up to
date.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

WinErr 00F: Unexplained error - Please tell us how this happened

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Mark Knecht]

On 1/22/06, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 06:57:17 -0800, Mark Knecht wrote:
>
> > Not sure I have the stomach to keep something this large up to date.
>
> emerge -uavDN world
>
> Keeping KDE up to date is no more or less effort than keeping GNOME up to
> date.
>
>
> --
> Neil Bothwick

Certainly no more effort, but it seems that it's possibly much more 
compute time which would get in the way of me running real time audio
on my machines. For my wife and son's machines it's a non-issue. I'd
let them choose which they prefer, with the caveat that should they
have a problem with somethign I'm not running they are a bit more on
their own. No big deal.

Is there no 'kde-light' to get me the environment without all the
zillions of apps, etc.?

Thanks Neil!

cheers,
Mark

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

On Sunday 22 January 2006 16:57, Mark Knecht wrote:

> Is there no 'kde-light' to get me the environment without all the
> zillions of apps, etc.?

Yes, with kde split ebuilds it's actually possible to build a "light" kde 
system. Just emerge kdebase-startkde and build from there adding the 
apps you need (usually, kicker, konsole and konqueror are enough to give 
you an usable desktop, but I must admit that the notion of "usable" is 
very subjective; anyway, I hope you get the idea).

In fact, you can have a functional kde desktop by installing no more than 
20-30 applications among the "zillions" you mentioned before :)

HTH
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Mark Knecht]

On 1/22/06, Etaoin Shrdlu <shrdlu@unlimitedmail.org> wrote:
> On Sunday 22 January 2006 16:57, Mark Knecht wrote:
>
> > Is there no 'kde-light' to get me the environment without all the
> > zillions of apps, etc.?
>
> Yes, with kde split ebuilds it's actually possible to build a "light" kde
> system. Just emerge kdebase-startkde and build from there adding the
> apps you need (usually, kicker, konsole and konqueror are enough to give
> you an usable desktop, but I must admit that the notion of "usable" is
> very subjective; anyway, I hope you get the idea).
>
> In fact, you can have a functional kde desktop by installing no more than
> 20-30 applications among the "zillions" you mentioned before :)
>
> HTH

Thanks. It does help.

And I hope it's clear I'm not picking on KDE. I have no reason to. I
don't run a full version of Gnome either. It's great to know that
there's a reasonably simple way to get a reduced version of KDE.

Thanks,
Mark

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 743 bytes --]

On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 07:57:15 -0800, Mark Knecht wrote:

> > Keeping KDE up to date is no more or less effort than keeping GNOME
> > up to date.

> Certainly no more effort, but it seems that it's possibly much more 
> compute time which would get in the way of me running real time audio
> on my machines.

Not since the introduction of the split ebuilds. It was true with the
monolithic ebuilds that updating one program required you to rebuilds a
large chunk of KDE, but that's no longer the case. If anything, I expect
it is much less work for the computer than a similar update for GNOME,
because the KDE packages are much more fine-grained now.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Suicide is the most sincere form of self-criticism.

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Mark Knecht]

On 1/22/06, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 07:57:15 -0800, Mark Knecht wrote:
>
> > > Keeping KDE up to date is no more or less effort than keeping GNOME
> > > up to date.
>
> > Certainly no more effort, but it seems that it's possibly much more
> > compute time which would get in the way of me running real time audio
> > on my machines.
>
> Not since the introduction of the split ebuilds. It was true with the
> monolithic ebuilds that updating one program required you to rebuilds a
> large chunk of KDE, but that's no longer the case. If anything, I expect
> it is much less work for the computer than a similar update for GNOME,
> because the KDE packages are much more fine-grained now.
>
>
> --
> Neil Bothwick

Good info. Thanks.

I was sort of amazed (on the downside) that a couple of packages, like
kdepim, took a huge amount of time. I *think* I wouldn't have this
installed so it wouldn't be an issue. I suppose I need to look at all
the KDE packages to determine what might be a reasonable subset to
use. Assuming I did equesry correctly I get this right now:

lightning ~ # equery -i list kde
[ Searching for package 'kde' in all categories among: ]
 * installed packages
[I--] [  ] kde-base/kde-3.4.3 (3.4)
[I--] [  ] kde-base/kde-env-3-r4 (0)
[I--] [  ] kde-base/kdeaddons-3.4.3 (3.4)
[I--] [  ] kde-base/kdeadmin-3.4.3 (3.4)
[I--] [  ] kde-base/kdeartwork-3.4.3 (3.4)
[I--] [  ] kde-base/kdebase-3.4.3-r1 (3.4)
[I--] [  ] kde-base/kdebase-pam-6 (0)
[I--] [  ] kde-base/kdeedu-3.4.3-r10 (3.4)
[I--] [  ] kde-base/kdegames-3.4.3 (3.4)
[I--] [  ] kde-base/kdegraphics-3.4.3-r3 (3.4)
[I--] [  ] kde-base/kdelibs-3.4.3-r1 (3.4)
[I--] [  ] kde-base/kdemultimedia-3.4.3 (3.4)
[I--] [  ] kde-base/kdenetwork-3.4.3 (3.4)
[I--] [  ] kde-base/kdepim-3.4.3 (3.4)
[I--] [  ] kde-base/kdetoys-3.4.3 (3.4)
[I--] [  ] kde-base/kdeutils-3.4.3-r1 (3.4)
[I--] [  ] kde-base/kdewebdev-3.4.3-r1 (3.4)
lightning ~ #

It seems like at least kdeedu, kdegames, kdepim & kdetoys wouldn't
leave me missing really obvious stuff, at least from the names. It
would seem that kdeadmin, kdebase, kdebase-pam, kdelibs, kdemultimedia
& possibly kdeutils would be keepers. The rest I don't have an
uneducated opinion on. ;-)

Thanks for your help!

Cheers,
Mark

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 15:12:09 -0800, Mark Knecht wrote:

> It seems like at least kdeedu, kdegames, kdepim & kdetoys wouldn't
> leave me missing really obvious stuff, at least from the names. It
> would seem that kdeadmin, kdebase, kdebase-pam, kdelibs, kdemultimedia
> & possibly kdeutils would be keepers. The rest I don't have an
> uneducated opinion on. ;-)

These are the monolithic ebuilds, kdepim for example contains kmail,
kontact and quite a few others. Use the split ebuilds to merge just what
you need.

It's a little confusing because the split and monolithic ebuilds are all
in the same category, kde-base.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

... Veni, Vidi, Visa - I came, I saw, I charged it.

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Ryan Viljoen]

> > It seems like at least kdeedu, kdegames, kdepim & kdetoys wouldn't
> > leave me missing really obvious stuff, at least from the names. It
> > would seem that kdeadmin, kdebase, kdebase-pam, kdelibs, kdemultimedia
> > & possibly kdeutils would be keepers. The rest I don't have an
> > uneducated opinion on. ;-)
>
> These are the monolithic ebuilds, kdepim for example contains kmail,
> kontact and quite a few others. Use the split ebuilds to merge just what
> you need.
>
> It's a little confusing because the split and monolithic ebuilds are all
> in the same category, kde-base.


How does the removal of such modules occur if one uses the split
ebuilds, surely it becomes that much more difficult?

(93 messages later, come on all this and we dont hit 100?)

--
Ryan Viljoen Bsc(Eng) (Electrical)

"Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable."
  - Mark Twain

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:49:37 +0200, Ryan Viljoen wrote:

> > These are the monolithic ebuilds, kdepim for example contains kmail,
> > kontact and quite a few others. Use the split ebuilds to merge just
> > what you need.

> > It's a little confusing because the split and monolithic ebuilds are
> > all in the same category, kde-base.
 
> How does the removal of such modules occur if one uses the split
> ebuilds, surely it becomes that much more difficult?

Do you mean removing all of KDE?

qpkg -g kde-base | xargs emerge -C

If you mean removing individual KDE components, that's easy with the
split ebuilds.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

There was a young man from the border
Who had an attention disorder.
When he reached the last line
He would run out of time
And

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Alexander Skwar]

Paul S. Bains wrote:

> You are not being dense - unused code does nothing but take up disc  
> space.

That's not correct. It offers the potential of being
executed and thus, it offers the potential of being
a security threat. Thus it is better to NOT have the
code around at all.

Alexander Skwar
-- 
You see but you do not observe.
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, in "The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes"
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Derek Tracy]

All right, my turn to congratulate KDE on doing such a fine job.

<--rant arg=slight-->

I have been using Linux (Gentoo at that) for over 6 yrs.  During that
time I have tried Gnome, KDE, and XFCE off and on.  After spending
some time with each (2-3 weeks) I would always go back to a plain
window manager (Openbox or FVWM).

For the last 2yrs I had been using FVWM and had went to a lot of work
to get my desktop completely customized to how I liked it, then KDE
3.5 came out and I decided to give it a shot, especially since I had
been doing some reading about KDE 4 and was totally amazed by Plasma
and how they are planning on interfacing with DBUS / HAL.  I must say
combining the easy configurability of KDE and the unbloatfullness of
split ebuilds.  KDE is now just about perfect for me, my only 2
complaints that I have so far (1 being Amarok and not KDE) are I wish
KDE 3.5 was a little faster but that should get fixed with 4.x and I
wish that Amarok handled Podcasts with more flexibility and allowed me
to create playlists and such automaticlaly on my iPod (problem solved
by not using Amarok and using bashpodder / gnupod).

KDE has been a great experience and I can see why Linus prefers it
over Gnome (I used to enjoy Gnome more than KDE).  This all being said
I am very excited to see what KDE dev's come up with next (maybe a
good Arts successor).

<--/rant-->

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Abhay Kedia]

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On Sunday 22 January 2006 17:38, Derek Tracy wrote:
>
> wish that Amarok handled Podcasts with more flexibility and allowed me
> to create playlists and such automaticlaly on my iPod (problem solved
> by not using Amarok and using bashpodder / gnupod).
>
Check back with amaroK 1.4 and you will have that feature :)

>
> KDE has been a great experience and I can see why Linus prefers it
> over Gnome (I used to enjoy Gnome more than KDE).  This all being said
> I am very excited to see what KDE dev's come up with next (maybe a
> good Arts successor).
>
The will probably be dropping aRts in KDE 4

-- 
Regards,
Abhay

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Uwe Thiem]

On 22 January 2006 19:35, Abhay Kedia wrote:

> The will probably be dropping aRts in KDE 4

Make that certainly. Arts is dead.

Uwe

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mount; gasp; yes; uptime; umount
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Tony Davison]

On Sunday 22 January 2006 20:05, Uwe Thiem wrote:
> On 22 January 2006 19:35, Abhay Kedia wrote:
> > The will probably be dropping aRts in KDE 4
>
> Make that certainly. Arts is dead.

Where are we having the wake. I'll chip in for a few beers, I'd like to make 
sure its properly buried.

-- 
Big Tone
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Paul S. Bains]

Perhaps I misunderstood the poster - unused, uncompiled code cannot be  
loaded into RAM, unless you editing it. Unused compiled code can, but  
that is beyond the realm of the user. If the developer has functions  
that are not ever being used, then that's the developer's fault.

On 01/22/06 03:55:00, Alexander Skwar wrote:
> Paul S. Bains wrote:
> 
> > You are not being dense - unused code does nothing but take up disc
> 
> > space.
> 
> That's not correct. It offers the potential of being
> executed and thus, it offers the potential of being
> a security threat. Thus it is better to NOT have the
> code around at all.
> 
> Alexander Skwar
> --
> You see but you do not observe.
> Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, in "The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes"
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
> 
> 

-- 
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary,
and those who don't.

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Paul S. Bains]

I forgot interpreted code - maybe that's what the original poster  
meant. I am used to only working with compiled binaries only.

On 01/22/06 08:47:38, Paul S. Bains wrote:
> Perhaps I misunderstood the poster - unused, uncompiled code cannot  
> be loaded into RAM, unless you editing it. Unused compiled code can,  
> but that is beyond the realm of the user. If the developer has  
> functions that are not ever being used, then that's the developer's  
> fault.
> 
> On 01/22/06 03:55:00, Alexander Skwar wrote:
>> Paul S. Bains wrote:
>> 
>> > You are not being dense - unused code does nothing but take up disc
>> 
>> > space.
>> 
>> That's not correct. It offers the potential of being
>> executed and thus, it offers the potential of being
>> a security threat. Thus it is better to NOT have the
>> code around at all.
>> 
>> Alexander Skwar
>> --
>> You see but you do not observe.
>> Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, in "The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes"
>> --
>> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
>-- 
> There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand  
> binary,
> and those who don't.
> 
>-- 
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
-- 
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary,
and those who don't.

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Alexander Skwar]

Paul S. Bains wrote:
> Perhaps I misunderstood the poster - unused, uncompiled code cannot be  
> loaded into RAM, unless you editing it. 

Yep.

> Unused compiled code can, but  
> that is beyond the realm of the user.

No, it's not. IIRC, this thread at some point of time was
about setting USE flags. With USE flags, the user can control
what gets compiled and what not.

> If the developer has functions  
> that are not ever being used, then that's the developer's fault.

Or the packagers, for not proving enought options of what
gets installed.

Alexander Skwar
-- 
The nice thing about Windows is - It does not just crash, it displays a
dialog box and lets you press 'OK' first.
(Arno Schaefer's .sig)
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Dale]

Walter Dnes wrote:

>
>
>  A year ago, I was using a 1999 Dell (128 megs RAM, 450 mhz PIII) as my
>main machine.  I still have it around as my emergency backup.  KDE
>"runs" (would you believe crawls) painfully slowly on that machine.
>Using blackbox plus fbpanel, it's perfectly OK for most stuff, except
>that it drops frames on "internet TV" and working with 2560x1920 digital
>photos in Gimp is "leisurely".  On my AMDK8, in 32-bit mode, it screams.
>
>  
>


I have ran a old 400MHz machine with 128MBs of ram before.  If you can
get some more ram in there, it will run a lot faster.  It is the ram
more than the CPU that is holding you back speed wise.  I put in another
128MBs and the speed was about three times faster.  I had the same issue
with a AMD 800Mhz machine with 128MBs.  I just added 64MBs to it and it
was a lot faster.  I increased the 800MHz machine to about 300MBs later
on.  It helped some but not a lot.  I just happened to get a system that
didn't work but had some ram in it.

I suspect KDE, and the kernel, needs about 200MBs together to run
efficiently.  This is based on my experience.  I would not try to run a
system with 128MBs again, unless I had too.

Just a thought.

Dale
:-)

Let's see if I can send email tonight.  < says prayer >

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 01:06:09 +0100, Holly Bostick wrote:

> That may be true, but it assumes that I want a "Desktop Environment" in
> the first place, which I don't, particularly.

Then why are you participating in a discussion about which of the two
complete Desktop environments is best? ;-)

As you don't want a DE, you actually have more choice than those that do,
since there are so many minimal environments that you can build up
yourself, compared with the two major pre-built environments.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Use Colgate toothpaste or end up with teeth like a Ferengi.

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Abhay Kedia]

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On Saturday 21 January 2006 05:36, Holly Bostick wrote:
>
> That may be true, but it assumes that I want a "Desktop Environment" in
> the first place, which I don't, particularly.
>
Ermm...if you don't want a "Desktop Environment" then why install K "Desktop 
Environment" in the first place and then why get into a discussion related to 
Desktop Environments anyways?

>
> As I said, after finding even GNOME too heavy, I switched to Openbox 3,
> which basically presents *no* working environment, and now use
> fvwm-crystal, which presents a relatively minimal one, certainly by
> comparison to KDE.
>
Openbox is a Window Manager so it is not *supposed* to present any working 
environment. fvwm-crystal also makes choices for you, like installing a panel 
and wallpapers for you. It is inherent quality for a DE to make choices and 
install stuff for you so as to present an already "working environment". If 
it is not doing this...it is not a DE.

>
> But I simply don't like DEs. If I'm going to spend time fine-tuning my
> desktop, I want exactly what I want, exactly the way I like it, not "as
> close to how I like it as the DE supports". That's why I use
> "build-it-yourself" WMs like OB3 and FVWM.
>
Before you entered into this discussion, you should have understood the 
difference between WMs and DEs. You are comparing apples with oranges. How 
smart it is? I will leave you to decide :)

-- 
Regards,
Abhay

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Linux Java]

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It's nice of you to give me so detailed explanation!
I think I would like to use gnome for long time ^_^
Thank you very much
On Fri, 2006-01-20 at 15:29 +0100, Holly Bostick wrote:

> Neil Bothwick schreef:
> > On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:10:13 +0800, Linux Java wrote:
> > 
> >> I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.
> > 
> > Why? Use whatever suits you.
> > 
> 
> I hope that you all appreciate my extreme restraint in not posting to
> this thread until now, given how very much I dislike KDE.
> 
> But for the record, just so that all you KDE-heads don't skew the
> results com*plete*ly:
> 
> I always (from my first attempts at Linux some 3 years ago) preferred
> GNOME to KDE. Never liked Nautilus, though (it's tied for second on my
> list of "most hated file managers"), and since I've never been fond of
> desktop icons and all that cr... junk... I still found it too heavy. So I
> switched to Openbox 3 (with a GTK "backend"), and now I use fvwm-crystal
> (with a GTK "backend"). Gnome-light is (always) installed, but I don't
> use it as a desktop.
> 
> I have only two KDE-specific applications that I would not do without
> (both compiled -kde and -arts to the greatest extent possible): Krusader
> (though this needs Konq and some other KDE utils for best usage, as it
> recognizes KDE apps much much better than GTK apps for viewing files and
> the like), and K3b. These apps require kdebase, so I've got that, but
> the day you see me logging into KDE, you can rest assured that either:
> 
> 1) my system is so seriously broke that it's the only DE/WM I can get
> into (which is pretty unlikely. I mean, I've got iceWM and *afterstep*
> on the system, for Pete's sake; the day that doesn't work but KDE does
> will be... "The" day);
> 
> or
> 
> 2) I have been replaced by an alien clone (shoot first, ask questions
> later).
> 
> I prefer to use GTK-based applications wherever possible because I find
> them more attractive in general, and I'm more used to them (as a GNOME
> user originally), unless they're junk, like Totem, in which case I use
> "non-affiliated" programs like Xine or mPlayer. Yes, I know Totem can be
> configured to use a Xine backend. Imo, there's no point; if that's the
> only way Totem works, I might as well just use Xine. Plus I want to see
> when gStreamer gets its act together. However I have no objection to
> QT-based apps (as opposed to KDE apps) when necessary. It does need to
> be "necessary", though (meaning, if I need it, I'll install qdvdauthor,
> because there's no GTK alternative that I know of, but I can just as
> well use the CLI original, unless the GUI version has some additional
> feature or makes it easier to understand than the CLI version's man page).
> 
> So anyway, Neil is of course right: use what you want; it's *your*
> desktop (finally!). I don't need a whole lot of GUI features (in fact I
> dislike a whole lot of GUI features), so KDE is not for me, the one who
> never liked Windows(-like) desktops, even when I was using Windows; I
> used an alternative shell from my Win98 days on. But for those who feel
> more comfortable with a more Windows-like environment, and Windows-like
> assumptions about what a user wants/needs from their desktop, KDE may be
> just the thing; that is, after all, what it's designed to do to a great
> extent.
> 
> You can have it, though. I'll be elsewhere.
> 
> Holly
> 
> 

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Ryan Viljoen]

>  It's nice of you to give me so detailed explanation!
>  I think I would like to use gnome for long time ^_^
>  Thank you very much

50 mails later, 5 flame wars and just for that... I do believe it
would of been easier to give each of them a test yourself to see what
you prefer. KDE, Fluxbox, Gnome, et al.

Bleh!


--
Ryan Viljoen Bsc(Eng) (Electrical)

"Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable."
  - Mark Twain

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Richard Fish]

On 1/20/06, Linux Java <linuxjava@gmail.com> wrote:
>  It's nice of you to give me so detailed explanation!
>  I think I would like to use gnome for long time ^_^
>  Thank you very much

Some advice for etiquette on this list:

1. Don't top post.
2. _DON'T_ post html messages
3. Learn to trim the message you are replying to.

-Richard

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Linux Java]

On Sat, 2006-01-21 at 11:05 -0700, Richard Fish wrote:
> Some advice for etiquette on this list:
> 
> 1. Don't top post.
> 2. _DON'T_ post html messages
> 3. Learn to trim the message you are replying to.
> 
> -Richard
> 
Thank you for your advice!

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Richard Fish]

On 1/20/06, Linux Java <linuxjava@gmail.com> wrote:
>  I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.

Linus recommends you use KDE.

http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/000390.html

-Richard

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Kristian Poul Herkild]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 07:17:43 -0700, Richard Fish wrote
> Linus recommends you use KDE.
> 
> http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/000390.html
> 
> -Richard
> 
> -- 
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Yup, and that's because he can't do what _he_ wants to. His complaints have
been acknowledged to some extent. I agree with him in his criticism, but I
still prefer Gnome. I lack the more advanced options, but the rest of Gnome is
still to my liking.

Personally I still believe using the DE which is best for you, is the best
choice you can make. Be it Gnome, XFCE, EDE, KDE or whatever ;)

The best DE would probably be a combination. Based on the IDs of mail
applications used in gentoo-user I think KDE is the most used DE. 55% KDE vs.
35% Gnome seems realistic to me.

Kristian Poul Herkild

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Alexander Kirillov]

>> I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.
> 
> Linus recommends you use KDE.
> 
> http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/000390.html

I've been using KDE for years but switched to Gnome recently.
Though I'm still using Kate. It's a matter of taste. Try them both.
You'll probably find KDE more flexible and Gnome more responsive
and better integrated with other open source projects out there.

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Abhay Kedia]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 463 bytes --]

On Friday 20 January 2006 21:08, Alexander Kirillov wrote:
>
> and better integrated with other open source projects out there.
>
That is not a quality of Gnome but GTK. Gnome uses GTK while KDE uses QT. 
Since (earlier) QT had a non-acceptable license for most of the developers of 
FLOSS, they chose GTK over QT. This lead to more and more applications being 
written with the toolkit, hence their better integration with Gnome.

-- 
Regards,
Abhay

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Alexander Kirillov]

>>and better integrated with other open source projects out there.
> 
> That is not a quality of Gnome but GTK. Gnome uses GTK while KDE uses QT. 
> Since (earlier) QT had a non-acceptable license for most of the developers of 
> FLOSS, they chose GTK over QT. This lead to more and more applications being 
> written with the toolkit, hence their better integration with Gnome.

I've been thinking about xscreensaver and mozilla:)

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Matthias Langer]

On Fri, 2006-01-20 at 07:17 -0700, Richard Fish wrote:
> On 1/20/06, Linux Java <linuxjava@gmail.com> wrote:
> >  I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.
> 
> Linus recommends you use KDE.
> 
> http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/000390.html
> 
Don't take me wrong, i really respect Linus and appreaciate what he did,
but i don't care a damn second about the dektop environment he prefers
because this is mostly a matter of tase. I use gnome because i like
gnomes simplistic approach, because i like evolution, nautilus, totem,
the gnome terminal, gtk+ and especially gtkmm (c++ api for gtk+ - qt
folks should really take a look at it) and lot's of great gtk+ based
programs like inkscape, gimp, gvim, beep-media-player, ...

But the really great thing is that there are lot's of desktop
environments and/or window-managers out there and everybody can make
it's own choice.

Matthias

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[gentoo-user] Re: How many people use KDE?

[James]

Linux Java <linuxjava <at> gmail.com> writes:


> I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.


Well Hello Linux-Java,

I'll attempt to give you some non-subjective reasons
for KDE. Let me start out by saying, depending on what
you are doing and what are your key applications, Gnome
might be good for you. It's an excellent body of work.

However, hear are some of the reasons I like KDE, not that
all of these ideas are exclusive to KDE:

QT. As an engineer involved in embeddded product development,
nothing is close to being as cool as QT. QT is a corner stone
of KDE, so when I have to drill down into the morass of details
concerning display graphics, icons, etc, KDE's affinity for QT
is similar, only much more complex, than many of the graphical
technologies installed on embedded systems.

I believe that the future of GUIs will necessitate that one's
desktop environment be at least a cousin to the embedded devices
one is responsible for building and managing. QT's future looks bright.

JAVA: Unlike many linux folks, I believe that JAVA has a primary role
in the future of GUIs, applications, and many other aspects
of computing. I like the integration of KDE/QT/JAVA that the 
kde camps sees and continues to enhance, for example:
http://developer.kde.org/language-bindings/java/

Again, I'm not saying you cannot find these equivalents in Gnome, but
KDE fits my needs keenly. The real kicker is that KDE 4.0 is
suppose to be fantastic.

HTH,

James



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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How many people use KDE?

[Philip Webb]

060120 Linux Java wrote:
> I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.

This gets asked regularly in one form or another
& the proper answer is that Gentoo gives you a real choice, so who cares ?

KDE got a bad reputation a few years ago, partly due to bloat & sloth
& originally because Qt was not free software (hence others started Gnome).
Neither of these is true anymore: the KDE devs have put a lot of work
into consulting users & making their product quick & flexible.
I was surprised to find that 3.5 shuts down in a few seconds
despite my  10  desktops + similar number of running apps to remember
& it restarts everything quickly enough at the start of the next session.
One can & I do configure KDE to be simple & unobtrusive: the panel is hidden
& has no app start-buttons & (of course) there are no desktop icons.
I use the rather cute Apwal (in Portage) tied to the left mouse-button
to get a pretty display of icons to start common apps,
which means I don't need the KDE menu that much (it is easy to edit).
It's best to install just those pkgs you need (eg I don't install Kmail).

I used Xfce for a while, but its devs seemed to be reinventing the wheel,
& Blackbox briefly, but it is only marginally maintained,
& I do have Fluxbox installed in case KDE fails (it never has).
I once looked at Gnome long ago, saw that it forced me to place its panel
across the top of the screen (ugh!) & have never looked at it again ...

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,  Philip Webb : purslow@chass.utoronto.ca
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|  Centre for Urban & Community Studies
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How many people use KDE?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 11:51:40 -0500, Philip Webb wrote:

> One can & I do configure KDE to be simple & unobtrusive: the panel is
> hidden & has no app start-buttons & (of course) there are no desktop
> icons. I use the rather cute Apwal (in Portage) tied to the left
> mouse-button to get a pretty display of icons to start common apps,

Apwal looks rather neat. How did you tie it to the LMB in KDE?


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Isn't it a bit unnerving that doctors call what they do "practice?"

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How many people use KDE?

[Philip Webb]

060120 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 11:51:40 -0500, Philip Webb wrote:
>> I use the rather cute Apwal (in Portage) tied to the left mouse-button
>> to get a pretty display of icons to start common apps,
> Apwal looks rather neat. How did you tie it to the LMB in KDE?

KDE Control Centre -> Desktop -> Behaviour -> General tab ->
  mouse-button actions -> Left button -> Custom menu 1 -> edit
  
I assume I entered 'apwal', tho' it says 'Xterm' in the box now.
I have  ~/.kde/share/config/kdesktop_custom_menu1 ,
which has the single line 'Item1=apwal', so you could simply create it.
Since installing Apwal, I've updated KDE 3.4.1 -> 3.5 ,
which may affect what is shown as default in the 'edit' box.
Apwal info is in  /usr/share/doc/apwal... .

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How many people use KDE?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:54:12 -0500, Philip Webb wrote:

> > Apwal looks rather neat. How did you tie it to the LMB in KDE?
> 
> KDE Control Centre -> Desktop -> Behaviour -> General tab ->
>   mouse-button actions -> Left button -> Custom menu 1 -> edit

You hcan halve the number of actions by right-clicking on the desktop and
selecting configure desktop - unless you've changed it.

> I assume I entered 'apwal', tho' it says 'Xterm' in the box now.
> I have  ~/.kde/share/config/kdesktop_custom_menu1 ,

OK that works, so of. It gives me a menu with only apwal on it, which I
then select to run apwal. I was hoping that I could link it directly to
the LMB, otherwise I may as well put the programs in the custom menu
rather than going through apwal, nice as it is.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Famed tautologist dies of suicide in distressing tragedy

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Mike Owen]

On 1/20/06, Linux Java <linuxjava@gmail.com> wrote:
>  I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.
>
>

I used Gnome for years (5 or 6 maybe?), but have recently switched to
kde-3.4 and then now kde-3.5. For me, I wanted to try something
different, and it is a nice change. I may swap back eventually, or
even go back to Afterstep or Enlightenment, but for now kde-3.5 works
for me.

Mike

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Alan E. Davis]

On 1/21/06, Mike Owen <kyphros@gmail.com> wrote:

> even go back to Afterstep or Enlightenment, but for now kde-3.5 works
> for me.
>

May I ask others' experiences with e17?  I just wasted my holiday
installing e17 on two of three machines.  It is smaller than Kde, but
background is 20% of cpu .  Buggy.  Beautiful.  A PITA to configure,
and menus suck. I don't think I'll be there long.   I liked
enlightenment .16 except I guess I really do need icons to remind me
of what I've got on the system, and good menus.

I still haven't decided to dump e17 for real, but in looking back, I
did note how heavy KDE 3.5 is.  Gnome: my employers already treat me
like a child; I need options and flexibility.

KDE is ugly IMHO: I blew that windows-like pop stand years ago. 
However, for some reason KDE developers in some, but NOT ALL cases,
seem to wind up with a more polished package.  Compare Kalzium and
gperiodic.

On really good days, I fire up fluxbox or a console.

The bottom line on GUIs is ease of use.  The tradeoff is flexibility
and options.  Nautilus works nicely, and for the first time I am using
a GUI file manager for large scale reorganization of my filesystems. 
But one glaring deficiency keeps hitting me in the face---you can't do
links with them.  Noone has figured out how to make links user
friendly?  It's too complicated for the end user?  So using a graphic
user interface on a Unix-like system has led GNU/Linux back toward the
idiot proof pseudo operating system: like MS-DOG being an idiotproofed
unix-like system.

Comments after having recently installed a bunch of GUI setups.

Alan

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Saturday 21 January 2006 00:44, Alan E. Davis wrote:
> On 1/21/06, Mike Owen <kyphros@gmail.com> wrote:
> > even go back to Afterstep or Enlightenment, but for now kde-3.5 works
> > for me.
>
> May I ask others' experiences with e17?  I just wasted my holiday
> installing e17 on two of three machines.  It is smaller than Kde, but
> background is 20% of cpu .  Buggy.  Beautiful.  A PITA to configure,
> and menus suck. I don't think I'll be there long.   I liked
> enlightenment .16 except I guess I really do need icons to remind me
> of what I've got on the system, and good menus.

that was exactly how I felt. All the problems to get it installed, and than it 
was such a bad thing to configure&use, that I deinstalled it some days later. 
I used earlier enlightenment incarnations as my main desktop for some time, 
back, when KDE 2.X was dead slow, but when KDE 3 came out, enlightenment lost 
its appeal. 

> KDE is ugly IMHO: I blew that windows-like pop stand years ago.
> However, for some reason KDE developers in some, but NOT ALL cases,
> seem to wind up with a more polished package.  Compare Kalzium and
> gperiodic.

if it is ugly, install some themes you like ;)

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Toby 'qubit' Cubitt]

On Sat, Jan 21, 2006 at 12:56:47AM +0100, Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote:
> On Saturday 21 January 2006 00:44, Alan E. Davis wrote:
> > May I ask others' experiences with e17?  I just wasted my holiday
> > installing e17 on two of three machines.  It is smaller than Kde, but
> > background is 20% of cpu .  Buggy.  Beautiful.  A PITA to configure,
> > and menus suck. I don't think I'll be there long.   I liked
> > enlightenment .16 except I guess I really do need icons to remind me
> > of what I've got on the system, and good menus.
>
> that was exactly how I felt. All the problems to get it installed, and than it 
> was such a bad thing to configure&use, that I deinstalled it some days later. 
> I used earlier enlightenment incarnations as my main desktop for some time, 
> back, when KDE 2.X was dead slow, but when KDE 3 came out, enlightenment lost 
> its appeal. 

That's a bit unfair on e17, given that it's still pre-release
software. It is indeed buggy at the moment (though I should add I
haven't had any problems with more recent CVS installations), but
that's to be expected in a pre-release, and you're warned about it in
big red letters when you emerge it.

It is also a PITA to configure at the moment, but graphical menu
managers, keybinding editors, icon creaters, desktop icons, etc. are
planned before the release version, and every CVS checkout seems to
add more graphical configuration options at the moment, and reduce the
number of times I resort to the enlightenment-remote shell command.

Finally, on my ancient Pentium2 450, it uses 2-3% of cpu. In fact, I
find it more responsive than e16. So I'm not sure where the 20% comes
from. Maybe you've enabled lots of the processor intensive eye-candy,
like animated backgrounds or the snow or flames modules? Or you just
need to update to a more recent CVS release.

Without wishing to start a flame war, it's unfair to the developers to
give the impression that their software doesn't work very well without
at least mentioning it's pre-release (and therefore not expected
to!). And really, criticising it at all for being buggy and lacking
features is a little unfair. If you're not prepared to put up with
some rough edges, wait for the official release version.


Just to put in a good word for e17 to balance the discussion...

Personally, I prefer enlightenment to KDE or gnome because I don't
like the whole integrated desktop approach. I prefer my window manager
to manage windows, and leave me free to run whichever apps I like. My
ideal window manager has nothing at all on the desktop (except maybe a
wallpaper to gaze at when nothing's running), no gizmos taking up
desktop real-estate, an easy way to run my most frequently used apps
and some way to get at any others I might need occasionally, some way
to navigate between running apps, and as much as possible of this
should be manageable from the keyboard (with completely configurable
keybindings). If it does all this and looks beautiful at the same
time, so much the better!

I find that, of the traditional window managers, enlightenment comes
closest to this ideal (though I admit I've never tried FLuxbox or
IceWM - I stopped looking when I found I was happy with
enlightenment). Since a lot of e17 features are written as modules, I
can choose not to load (or often not to install) them, so only those
features I want take up disc space and memory (it's the gentoo
way!). For instance, I don't bother loading e17's "start menu".
(what's the point when I have ibar and keybindings to run the apps I
use most, and the run dialogue for the rest?). But it's there for
those who want it. E17 has completely configurable keybindings, even
if they're a pain to configure at the moment, and the
"enlightenment-remote" command line...err...command is fantastic for
getting shell scripts to interact with the window manager.

If you've read all that, you'll not be surprised I also like ratpoison
;-) But I haven't used it long enough to get used to it yet. And I've
not got beyond installing ion yet.

Window managers are very much a personal choice, and there is no
"right" decision, except try out a few and decide for yourself. Which
means it's worth at least being aware that there are plenty of other
choices apart from KDE and gnome, if you're not happy with them
(unlike a certain other OS, where there's not even a single
alternative ;)


Toby
-- 
PhD Student
Quantum Information Theory group
Max Planck Institute for Quantum Optics
Garching, Germany

email: toby@dr-qubit.org
web: www.dr-qubit.org
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Philip Webb]

060121 Alan E. Davis wrote:
> But one glaring deficiency keeps hitting me in the face
> -- you can't do links with them.

AFAIK Krusader can create links quite readily: look at its manual.

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[b.n.]

> The bottom line on GUIs is ease of use.  The tradeoff is flexibility
> and options.  

I have NEVER, EVER understood why dumbing down things means making them 
easy to use. That's a line of reasoning that gets me mad.
Look, the "Advanced" tab/dialog/whatever is not exactly a new invention.

m.
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Bob Sanders]

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 09:44:19 +1000
"Alan E. Davis" <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> May I ask others' experiences with e17?  I just wasted my holiday
> installing e17 on two of three machines.  It is smaller than Kde, but
> background is 20% of cpu .  Buggy.  Beautiful.  A PITA to configure,
> and menus suck. I don't think I'll be there long.   I liked
> enlightenment .16 except I guess I really do need icons to remind me
> of what I've got on the system, and good menus.
> 

I used it a bit.  Reminded me too much of WinXX/KDE/Gnome do I went
back to e16.7.

Icons can be added with Rox and Rox-session.  Menu editing is easy with
e16menuedit and key editing with e16keyedit.

> I still haven't decided to dump e17 for real, but in looking back, I
> did note how heavy KDE 3.5 is.  Gnome: my employers already treat me
> like a child; I need options and flexibility.
>

It's also possible to use engage with e16.7.  giving a task bar at the bottom of the
screen.


> But one glaring deficiency keeps hitting me in the face---you can't do
> links with them.  Noone has figured out how to make links user
> friendly?  It's too complicated for the end user? 

Rox filer lets me make links.

Bob
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Benno Schulenberg]

Alan E. Davis wrote:
> But one glaring deficiency keeps hitting me in the face---you 
> can't do links with them.

With Konq you can: hold Ctrl+Shift while dragging and dropping a 
file.

(But that's only symlinks, and surely you wish to do hard links 
too. :)

Benno
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[El Nino]

AybOwan!

Argument doesn't allow truth to come out
-Load Buddha-

so no matter all are opensources, let them to think...

On 1/21/06, Benno Schulenberg <benno.schulenberg@gmail.com> wrote:
> Alan E. Davis wrote:
> > But one glaring deficiency keeps hitting me in the face---you
> > can't do links with them.
>
> With Konq you can: hold Ctrl+Shift while dragging and dropping a
> file.
>
> (But that's only symlinks, and surely you wish to do hard links
> too. :)
>
> Benno
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Christoph Eckert]

> I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.

I wanna know how interesting such a discussion is ;-))) .

Please resist to develop a flame war from this topic. Better enjoy open 
source, regardless if it is KDE, Gnome, OSS, ALSA, OpenOffice.org or 
Koffice etc., simply enjoy the times we are allowed to live in.


Best regards


ce
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Rafael Fernández López]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Linux Java wrote:
> I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.
> 

	I love KDE. It is fully customizable and its code is simply perfect.
One thing that I love from KDE (that makes it less "fast") is that is
written in C++, that has lots of advantages, for example for code
mantaining and so on...

	I use KDE as user and I like to develop for KDE and QT (3 or 4, but 4
better ;) ). C++ code is so cute and polished... KDE project is one of
the best things I've seen ever (well take a look at another amazing
projects like eclipse or openoffice).

	What I don't like from Gnome is that it is like a block. You maybe
won't customize it too much.

	Talking as developer, programming for Gnome is simply terrible. C code
emulating C++ is just a bad path for creating big things (well...  for
example in linux kernel we have to use C because we need it to be really
fast but for a window manager... I think that we could use C++ and it
will run pretty fast).

	I can't notice what speed difference exists between Gnome and KDE.
Computers of nowadays can deal with KDE with no problems.

	If you have an old computer the worst thing is that KDE won't work as
you'd maybe like to, but maybe Gnome won't too !! And you'll have to
install something like blackbox or something similar...

Bye,
Rafael Fernández López.
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[gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[Chris White]

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On Friday 20 January 2006 18:10, Linux Java wrote:
> I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.

That's the most blatant start of a flamewar I've seen...

Ok, let's sit here and ponder.  People like KDE, people like GNOME, hell, 
people like fluxbox and xfce.  Now to put this in perspective, basically 
there is no "right answer" to this question, and no matter how much someone 
suggests, there never will be.  I'm also curious as to how you plan to 
consider people's opinions on 'popular' valid.

The question of which is better (the question you SHOULD be asking) comes down 
to this:

1) Why do I need a WM/DE?
2) What do I do regularly that would make
    my life easier?
3) How much customization am I looking for?
4) How well do applications I commonly use
    integrate with it?
5) What do I think of the community behind it?

Now, these questions are only answerable by you, because.. they are 
SUBJECTIVE.  That's why flamewars come about, people try and answer 
subjective questions, then it goes nowhere.

So before this goes any further, guys, think independently about what you need 
from your DE/WM and make the world a better place.

Chris White

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Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[Dale]

Chris White wrote:

>On Friday 20 January 2006 18:10, Linux Java wrote:
>  
>
>>I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.
>>    
>>
>
>That's the most blatant start of a flamewar I've seen...
>
>Ok, let's sit here and ponder.  People like KDE, people like GNOME, hell, 
>people like fluxbox and xfce.  Now to put this in perspective, basically 
>there is no "right answer" to this question, and no matter how much someone 
>suggests, there never will be.  I'm also curious as to how you plan to 
>consider people's opinions on 'popular' valid.
>
>The question of which is better (the question you SHOULD be asking) comes down 
>to this:
>
>1) Why do I need a WM/DE?
>2) What do I do regularly that would make
>    my life easier?
>3) How much customization am I looking for?
>4) How well do applications I commonly use
>    integrate with it?
>5) What do I think of the community behind it?
>
>Now, these questions are only answerable by you, because.. they are 
>SUBJECTIVE.  That's why flamewars come about, people try and answer 
>subjective questions, then it goes nowhere.
>
>So before this goes any further, guys, think independently about what you need 
>from your DE/WM and make the world a better place.
>
>Chris White
>  
>


Basically, nobody is right and everybody is wrong.  Makes sense to me.

Dale
:-)

Testing to see if I can email tonight.  I just had to think of something
to say.  LOL
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Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[Iain Buchanan]

Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit?

*ROTFLMAO*

that gave me the biggest laugh in a while... thanks :)
-- 
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		-- Henry David Thoreau, "Civil Disobedience"

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Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[Uwe Thiem]

On 21 January 2006 07:08, Chris White wrote:
> On Friday 20 January 2006 18:10, Linux Java wrote:
> > I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.
>
> That's the most blatant start of a flamewar I've seen...

Oh, there are other ways to start flamewars as good as this one:

What is better, emacs or vim?

What is the better programming language, C or C++.

Better scripting language, perl or python?

For years, we have heard that java would take over completely the next year. 
When is "next year"?


What strikes me funny is that it's seldom the developers who fuel the flames 
but almost always self-appointed power users. ;-)

Uwe

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Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[b.n.]

> Oh, there are other ways to start flamewars as good as this one:
[...]
> What is the better programming language, C or C++.
> 
> Better scripting language, perl or python?

Hell, perl and python are programming languages actually!
I cry meta-flamewar on these two flamewars!! :P

m.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[Iain Buchanan]

On Sat, 2006-01-21 at 12:19 +0000, b.n. wrote:
> > Oh, there are other ways to start flamewars as good as this one:
> [...]
> > What is the better programming language, C or C++.
> > 
> > Better scripting language, perl or python?
> 
> Hell, perl and python are programming languages actually!
> I cry meta-flamewar on these two flamewars!! :P

*heh heh* what's a better flamewar: the emacs vs vi flameware or the
perl vs python flamewar?

-- 
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In God we trust; all else we walk through.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[b.n.]

> *heh heh* what's a better flamewar: the emacs vs vi flameware or the
> perl vs python flamewar?

LOL...I'll bite!
Of course the perl vs python flamewar. It introduces, in its best 
incarnations, both elegant and clever programming language concepts but 
also shows relentless fanboysm and misconceptions on both sides! It's a 
good flamewar where you learn both about programming, programming 
languages and the hysterical side of geeks.

Anyway, I'm all for vi and python :).

m.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[Michael Sullivan]

On Sat, 2006-01-21 at 13:04 +0000, b.n. wrote:
> > *heh heh* what's a better flamewar: the emacs vs vi flameware or the
> > perl vs python flamewar?
> 
> LOL...I'll bite!
> Of course the perl vs python flamewar. It introduces, in its best 
> incarnations, both elegant and clever programming language concepts but 
> also shows relentless fanboysm and misconceptions on both sides! It's a 
> good flamewar where you learn both about programming, programming 
> languages and the hysterical side of geeks.
> 
> Anyway, I'm all for vi and python :).
> 
> m.
> 
> 

Ditto for vim.  I'm still learning perl.  Once I get through my perl
book I'll try learning python.  I figure experience with both languages
is essential for surviving in the Linux world.  And after that - Ruby!
Yay!!!

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Completely and totally OT - Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[Michael Sullivan]

On Sat, 2006-01-21 at 12:19 +0000, b.n. wrote:
> > Oh, there are other ways to start flamewars as good as this one:
> [...]
> > What is the better programming language, C or C++.
> > 
> > Better scripting language, perl or python?
> 
> Hell, perl and python are programming languages actually!
> I cry meta-flamewar on these two flamewars!! :P
> 
> m.

What's a meta-flamewar???

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Re: Completely and totally OT - Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[b.n.]

Michael Sullivan wrote:
> What's a meta-flamewar???

A flamewar about flamewars.
m.
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Re: Completely and totally OT - Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[Richard Fish]

On 1/21/06, b.n. <brullonulla@gmail.com> wrote:
> A flamewar about flamewars.

Well the most popular flamewar on this list is obiously about
filesystems, so that must be the best! :P

-Richard

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Re: Completely and totally OT - Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[Michael Sullivan]

On Sat, 2006-01-21 at 11:07 -0700, Richard Fish wrote:
> On 1/21/06, b.n. <brullonulla@gmail.com> wrote:
> > A flamewar about flamewars.
> 
> Well the most popular flamewar on this list is obiously about
> filesystems, so that must be the best! :P
> 
> -Richard
> 

I still use ext3 for / and ext2 for /boot.  I get confused about all the
others.

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Re: Completely and totally OT - Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[Kristian Poul Herkild]

Michael Sullivan wrote:
> On Sat, 2006-01-21 at 11:07 -0700, Richard Fish wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I still use ext3 for / and ext2 for /boot.  I get confused about all the
> others.
> 

I don't grok that.

*cough*FAT12*cough* is all you need :p (and 640KB of ram is enough for 
everybody).

Personally I use ext3 for everything except windows partitions. I have 3 
NTFS-partitions, and one FAT32 partition. The freeware read/write 
ext2-driver for Windows doesn't work with Windows 2003, so I have to use 
FAT32. Especially because captive-ntfs aren't working for me.

Kristian Poul Herkild.
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Re: Completely and totally OT - Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[Antoine]

> Personally I use ext3 for everything except windows partitions. I have 3 
> NTFS-partitions, and one FAT32 partition. The freeware read/write 
> ext2-driver for Windows doesn't work with Windows 2003, so I have to use 
> FAT32. Especially because captive-ntfs aren't working for me.

Seeing as we are all talking nonsense anyway - does anyone have an 
opinion on the fact that m$ just got a fat patent validated by a US court?
Chrs
A
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Re: Completely and totally OT - Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[John Jolet]

On Jan 23, 2006, at 2:00 PM, Antoine wrote:

>
>> Personally I use ext3 for everything except windows partitions. I  
>> have 3 NTFS-partitions, and one FAT32 partition. The freeware read/ 
>> write ext2-driver for Windows doesn't work with Windows 2003, so I  
>> have to use FAT32. Especially because captive-ntfs aren't working  
>> for me.
>
> Seeing as we are all talking nonsense anyway - does anyone have an  
> opinion on the fact that m$ just got a fat patent validated by a US  
> court?
> Chrs
>
isn't it cool how you can patent something you stole?
> A
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>

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Re: Completely and totally OT - Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[Joshua Schmidlkofer]

Yeah, use ext2 for all of that:

http://ext2fsd.sourceforge.net/projects/projects.htm
http://uranus.it.swin.edu.au/~jn/linux/explore2fs.htm
http://www.fs-driver.org/

All of those are supposed to worik, and I am trying them out now.

good luck,
  joshua


On 1/23/06, Antoine <melser.anton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Personally I use ext3 for everything except windows partitions. I have 3
> > NTFS-partitions, and one FAT32 partition. The freeware read/write
> > ext2-driver for Windows doesn't work with Windows 2003, so I have to use
> > FAT32. Especially because captive-ntfs aren't working for me.
>
> Seeing as we are all talking nonsense anyway - does anyone have an
> opinion on the fact that m$ just got a fat patent validated by a US court?
> Chrs
> A
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>
>

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Re: Completely and totally OT - Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[b.n.]

Joshua Schmidlkofer wrote:
> Yeah, use ext2 for all of that:
> 
> http://ext2fsd.sourceforge.net/projects/projects.htm
> http://uranus.it.swin.edu.au/~jn/linux/explore2fs.htm
> http://www.fs-driver.org/
> 
> All of those are supposed to worik, and I am trying them out now.

Ok, but what do we do with digital cameras? Do you know how to put an 
ext2 driver on a digital camera? :(

m.

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Re: Completely and totally OT - Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[Joshua Schmidlkofer]

For now that will not affect any user, only the manufacturer.  And
yes, they could put ext2 on a digital camera.  Maybe this patent will
prompt them to do just that.

sincerely,
  Joshua

On 1/26/06, b.n. <brullonulla@gmail.com> wrote:
> Joshua Schmidlkofer wrote:
> > Yeah, use ext2 for all of that:
> >
> > http://ext2fsd.sourceforge.net/projects/projects.htm
> > http://uranus.it.swin.edu.au/~jn/linux/explore2fs.htm
> > http://www.fs-driver.org/
> >
> > All of those are supposed to worik, and I am trying them out now.
>
> Ok, but what do we do with digital cameras? Do you know how to put an
> ext2 driver on a digital camera? :(
>
> m.
>
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>
>

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Re: Completely and totally OT - Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[b.n.]

Michael Sullivan wrote:
> I still use ext3 for / and ext2 for /boot.  I get confused about all the
> others.

I have ext2 for /boot and reiserfs for everything else. But reiserfs 
fragmentation is going to make me pretty angry...

m.


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Re: Completely and totally OT - Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[Joshua Schmidlkofer]

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On 1/21/06, b.n. <brullonulla@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Michael Sullivan wrote:
> > I still use ext3 for / and ext2 for /boot.  I get confused about all the
> > others.
>
> I have ext2 for /boot and reiserfs for everything else. But reiserfs
> fragmentation is going to make me pretty angry...
>
> m.



XFS is the best.  It is supported, it is reasonably fast, it has a
defragmenter, it has repair tools that are not only supported, but known to
work....  It has ways to optimize for extremely large filesystems, and,
though it won't win speed records in some areas, it holds it's own.

I have been using it since 2000.  I even use it for boot, but there is no
reason for that.  This year I began running most of my fs's in sync mode,
except for highly active data shares.  This has actually had very little
impact at all.  When I run upgrades, I remount async, but I have found that
sync mode does not cause horrible slowness, and frankly kicks ass.  I even
run my desktops in sync mode.

I have used ext2 tons, ext3 enough to dislike it, reiserfs and jfs.  I have
tested most all of them on production servers.   Last year we re building a
new database server with JFS.  It is a dual opteron, and at length we ran
into a few problems where we got no real errors, but JFS would spit out
something random and remount the fs readonly.  Memtest, this that the other
- none of it worked.  We ended up using XFS.

So, since we are on the topic of flame wars... and there is this random FS
post, theres my two cents.


Thanks,
  Joshua

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Re: Completely and totally OT - Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[Uwe Thiem]

On 21 January 2006 20:07, Richard Fish wrote:
> On 1/21/06, b.n. <brullonulla@gmail.com> wrote:
> > A flamewar about flamewars.
>
> Well the most popular flamewar on this list is obiously about
> filesystems, so that must be the best! :P

I forgot that one. Shame on me!

Uwe

-- 
Unix is sexy:
who | grep -i blonde | date
cd ~; unzip; touch; strip; finger
mount; gasp; yes; uptime; umount
sleep
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Re: Completely and totally OT - Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 11:07:21 -0700, Richard Fish wrote:

What about the one about top-posting

> Well the most popular flamewar on this list is obiously about
> filesystems, so that must be the best! :P

vs. bottom-posting? ;-)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

If a deaf person swears, does his mother wash his hands with soap?

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Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 14:08:29 +0900, Chris White wrote:

> > I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.
> 
> That's the most blatant start of a flamewar I've seen...
> 
> Ok, let's sit here and ponder.  People like KDE, people like GNOME,
> hell, people like fluxbox and xfce.  Now to put this in perspective,
> basically there is no "right answer" to this question, and no matter
> how much someone suggests, there never will be. 

There is a right answer to this question, because it is simple numbers,
which is most popular. Carry out a poll of Linux users to ask which is
their favourite desktop and you have the answer.

If you really want to start a flamewar, ask which is better.

Better is not the same as most popular, unless you really believe that
Windows is the best OS out there.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Scrute the inscrutable; eff the ineffable.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Have you seen my flamesuit? (Was: How many people use KDE?)

[Drew Tomlinson]

On 1/21/2006 2:44 AM Neil Bothwick said the following:

>On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 14:08:29 +0900, Chris White wrote:
>
>  
>
>>>I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.
>>>      
>>>
>>That's the most blatant start of a flamewar I've seen...
>>
>>Ok, let's sit here and ponder.  People like KDE, people like GNOME,
>>hell, people like fluxbox and xfce.  Now to put this in perspective,
>>basically there is no "right answer" to this question, and no matter
>>how much someone suggests, there never will be. 
>>    
>>
>
>There is a right answer to this question, because it is simple numbers,
>which is most popular. Carry out a poll of Linux users to ask which is
>their favourite desktop and you have the answer.
>
>If you really want to start a flamewar, ask which is better.
>
>Better is not the same as most popular, unless you really believe that
>Windows is the best OS out there.
>  
>
LOL. This could be the start of another flame war especially since it 
could be argued that any OS is the "best" in specific situations.

Cheers,

Drew


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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Justin Hart]

KDE and GNOME, from a user perspective, are about identical, except
that KDE has a couple more bells and whistles.

Now, if you're hacking code, it comes down to which windowing API you
want to use.  Of course, the user has the libraries for all of the
popular ones loaded anyway, so, again, it doesn't matter much.

I think that more distributions come with KDE set as the default, so,
probably KDE just based on that, unless Solaris has a much larger user
base than I think that it does.  Sun is moving to (has moved to?)
GNOME, and sent out notices to all of their developers (I developed a
few Solaris apps a couple years ago) saying "jump to gtk+."

Justin

On 1/20/06, Linux Java <linuxjava@gmail.com> wrote:
>  I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular.
>
>


--
Justin W. Hart

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Richard Fish]

On 1/21/06, Justin Hart <justinhart@gmail.com> wrote:
> KDE and GNOME, from a user perspective, are about identical, except
> that KDE has a couple more bells and whistles.

Not true from _this_ users's perspective.

-Richard

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 18:07:06 +0000, Justin Hart wrote:

> KDE and GNOME, from a user perspective, are about identical,

If that were true, it would be impossible to start a DE flamewar among
users.

PS vi and emacs are the same :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

WinErr 020: Error recording error codes - Additional errors will be lost.

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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Ernie Schroder]

On Saturday 21 January 2006 14:46, a tiny voice compelled Neil Bothwick to 
write:
> PS vi and emacs are the same
OH MY GOD NO!!!!! Not that again.
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Sunday 22 January 2006 00:02, Ernie Schroder wrote:
> On Saturday 21 January 2006 14:46, a tiny voice compelled Neil Bothwick to
>
> write:
> > PS vi and emacs are the same
>
> OH MY GOD NO!!!!! Not that again.

why not?

he is correct.

Both were made to drive their users crazy.

vi with stupid 'modes' and even more stupid command keys. emacs by grabbing 
all system ressources, 'funny' bugs and 'interessting' 'enhancements'. Oh, 
and it is written in lisp.

So, fundamentally, they are the same. Vile creatures made to torture humans.
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Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?

[Kristian Poul Herkild]

Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote:
> why not?
> 
> he is correct.
> 
> Both were made to drive their users crazy.
> 
> vi with stupid 'modes' and even more stupid command keys. emacs by grabbing 
> all system ressources, 'funny' bugs and 'interessting' 'enhancements'. Oh, 
> and it is written in lisp.
> 
> So, fundamentally, they are the same. Vile creatures made to torture humans.

You just described pretty much every piece of software which have 
existed or will come to existence, or do exist right now ;)

-Kristian Poul Herkild
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